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Music Therapy for Healing Trauma & Grief in Play Therapy · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 0:04
  Cathi Spooner: A weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  Cathi Spooner: We'll explore all things play therapy.
• 0:17
  Cathi Spooner: To elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  Cathi Spooner: I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:33
  Cathi Spooner: So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:46
  Cathi Spooner: Hey there.
• 0:47
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy, and I am super excited this week to have a guest, Crystal Worl, Luk-Worrall, who is based in the UK, in the London area, and she is a music therapist, also trained in EMDR to work with trauma.
• 1:11
  Cathi Spooner: She works with children who, um, have experienced grief and loss.
• 1:17
  Cathi Spooner: And so today's topic is gonna be about music and therapy and how we can integrate music as an expressive arts modality into the play therapy process.
• 1:33
  Cathi Spooner: Or if you're not a play therapist, then how you can integrate music into your treatment process.
• 1:42
  Cathi Spooner: So let's get started for today.
• 1:45
  Cathi Spooner: I, we would both love to know who's here.
• 1:48
  Cathi Spooner: So if you're watching live, please feel free to post in the comments.
• 1:54
  Cathi Spooner: Where are you from?
• 1:56
  Cathi Spooner: What population do you work with?
• 1:58
  Cathi Spooner: Are you, uh, trained as a music therapist.
• 2:02
  Cathi Spooner: Are you a play therapist and you like using music?
• 2:06
  Cathi Spooner: Are you a creative arts therapist and you like music, using music?
• 2:11
  Cathi Spooner: So lots of different, I think people come from a lot of different therapeutic modalities and we kind of converge in the expressive arts space.
• 2:22
  Cathi Spooner: And then I always find it's it helpful to get conversations going with people from specific, um, creative arts modalities, just to kind of help us understand the distinctions and what sets them apart.
• 2:38
  Cathi Spooner: But also areas where we have in common and how can we, how can we use these amazing ways to help children, adolescents, and I would say even adults to heal using these modalities.
• 2:54
  Cathi Spooner: So Crystal is the founder of Clap and Toot, and she has a website called Clap and toot.com.
• 3:02
  Cathi Spooner: We'll give some more information about that at the end.
• 3:05
  Cathi Spooner: If you have questions, feel free to ask those.
• 3:09
  Cathi Spooner: If you find the information helpful, please feel free to share these across your social media platforms.
• 3:17
  Cathi Spooner: And let's get started.
• 3:20
  Cathi Spooner: So, welcome Crystal.
• 3:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Thank you..
• 3:23
  Cathi Spooner: Tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 3:25
  Cathi Spooner: All the good stuff that I, I didn't mention.
• 3:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You mentioned plenty.
• 3:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I am Crystal.
• 3:33
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I have a private practice in London, um, called Clap and Toot to where we focus on working with the adoption community and the special guardianship community.
• 3:43
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and I also spend half of my time, half of my work time, um, working as A-E-M-D-R therapist at a children's hospice in London called Shooting Star.
• 3:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so my work is very much an integration of both.
• 4:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So EMDR gave me the trauma informed, um, approach that I now have, whereas music therapy gave me ` You know, the freedom to create and the freedom to express, um, and the freedom to experience and be with people that I really enjoy doing.
• 4:21
  Cathi Spooner: You know, one of the things that in intrigued me when, um, you guys reached out was the combination, I don't know if combination's the right word, but the, I don't even know if integration is the right word, but the combination or integration of EMDR and music, and I, in my mind, I can kind of conceptualize how that works.
• 4:48
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and I, I was curious for you as a music therapist, like how, how do you identify music therapy and um, what is that?
• 5:03
  Cathi Spooner: What?
• 5:04
  Cathi Spooner: What is music therapy?
• 5:05
  Cathi Spooner: And then I thought we could also talk a little bit about like the EMDR thing and how do you do that and what does that look like with children and families who are grieving?
• 5:17
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 5:19
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Music therapy.
• 5:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I think if you ask different music therapists, everybody could have a different answer.
• 5:25
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: For me, I think it's really about using music to connect, to make human connection.
• 5:32
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And it sounds unhelpfully fake, but, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a bit more, um, un about it.
• 5:41
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 5:42
  Cathi Spooner: I loved what you said.
• 5:43
  Cathi Spooner: Just for the record to me, I was like, oh, that sounds so good.
• 5:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But that, that's, I think that's one of the weakness of music therapy because it can sound so good where, oh, it's the, you know, the sentence, oh, using music to make human connection is so yummy.
• 5:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But actually when you, when you sit down with a client and with, with parents, they just go, what, what do you mean?
• 6:08
  Cathi Spooner: That's a really good point.
• 6:11
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I, I think.
• 6:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I think we, so in music, whether we think about it or not, whether, whether we cognitively, intentionally make music or not.
• 6:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So from a baby crying to someone screaming, there is something very innate about music, or at least, at least sound that comes from our voice.
• 6:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So that, that is one spectrum of music or of sound.
• 6:35
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But the other spectrum is this highly organized art form.
• 6:40
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So bark corral.
• 6:41
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: That's the other end of the spectrum, isn't it?
• 6:43
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So you can go as instinctive as possible with music, but you, you can also make it such a cognitive exercise if you want, if you wanted it to be cognitive.
• 6:54
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And I find that in music therapy sessions, we very much can go flexibly within that spectrum.
• 7:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: We explore human experience through the spectrum of music.
• 7:04
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 7:05
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So in my sessions, there's a lot of clinical improvisation involved, um, especially with children who struggle to use words.
• 7:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, either they are not ready to express themselves verbally or they can't physically use use words.
• 7:24
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um.
• 7:25
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Whereas with more verbal, so you say adults or adolescents?
• 7:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Young people.
• 7:32
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Sometimes we used a more organized version or we used the more organized feature of music.
• 7:38
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, thinking about how a specific EM emotions felt or sound in, in a piece of music.
• 7:46
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So there's a, a kind of a strand in music therapy called Music Imagery, which I love because essentially it's kind of helping people to put what they can't verbally describe into music.
• 8:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So we will ask questions like, okay, so that in that time when you feel very anxious, how did that feel in the body?
• 8:09
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, they might say it felt like, um, someone is squeezing my core and it felt like my shoulders are tensing.
• 8:18
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Then I might ask.
• 8:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: How would that sound like as a piece of music?
• 8:23
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So it might be, um, very fast.
• 8:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: What about the pitch?
• 8:28
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Is it up and down?
• 8:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Is is a very wide pitch or is it high pitch constantly or is it very low pitch?
• 8:34
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So you can be with music, you can be very cognitive about it.
• 8:38
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 8:39
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Which sometimes is helpful when we think about emotions that we can't describe because if we think about, um, subconscious materials.
• 8:51
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Sometimes the, the mind just don't, don't want to go to somewhere.
• 8:54
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Very painful, right?
• 8:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But if you don't go there, you can't really process it.
• 9:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So I think music provides this, provides music, provides safety, um, in, in our line of work.
• 9:12
  Cathi Spooner: You know, that makes sense too, because when you were describing that, I was thinking about the somatic aspect of what you were asking your clients to do, to do, and I, I think as play therapist, we do that as well.
• 9:28
  Cathi Spooner: And then we'll kind of find different avenues to do that.
• 9:31
  Cathi Spooner: And I thought it was really interesting how you, how you use music and the different aspects of music to help them find another expressive way of exploring emotions, but also that mind body connection emotions to help beginning to process those.
• 9:56
  Cathi Spooner: And I could, in my head, I was thinking, oh, I guess that's where you would kinda line that up with EMDR then beginning to set that stage a little bit of really helping them to connect to those painful experiences.
• 10:14
  Cathi Spooner: Even the ones like I'm super, um.
• 10:19
  Cathi Spooner: Interested, I was gonna say nerdy.
• 10:22
  Cathi Spooner: Super nerdy.
• 10:23
  Cathi Spooner: I am nerdy, but I'm pretty sure there are nerdier people than me with neuroscience and attachment.
• 10:28
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so in my head I'm like, are you super?
• 10:32
  Cathi Spooner: It's busy in my head.
• 10:34
  Cathi Spooner: Um, but I can see where, you know, if we're thinking also about those implicit experiences that you, you know, like you were talking about, they don't, necessarily have access to give those things language.
• 10:49
  Cathi Spooner: Or even some of the kids you were talking about maybe that don't have the language skills yet.
• 10:58
  Cathi Spooner: Even, I like the, me lack of a better word, but like the mechanical skills for expression from a, um, language standpoint, being able to give them, another way of processing it using music sounds.
• 11:17
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 11:18
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 11:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Yeah.
• 11:21
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And you point out something quite interesting about music and EMDR and how, how it fit together For me.
• 11:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I think for, for a lot of people, what's really difficult to wrap the heads around is.
• 11:34
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: If you know, E-M-D-R-E-M-D-R is incredibly structured.
• 11:37
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's a eight phase protocol.
• 11:41
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: We've got a manual, we've got language, we've got scripts.
• 11:45
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's very structured.
• 11:46
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Whereas if you think about music therapy or psychodynamically informed improvisation based music therapy, and I'm guessing it's quite similar in play therapy as well.
• 11:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's a, it is.
• 11:57
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's a free flowing process.
• 11:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 12:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And how does the two marry, um.
• 12:02
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Right.
• 12:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I, yes, but I think that's why as a music therapist, EMDR was really attractive to me because as a music therapist, yes, I do love that improvisation stance.
• 12:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And I, and I am in a way saying music therapy alone is not enough as an intervention.
• 12:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Right.
• 12:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, but there is something, there is beauty in order.
• 12:26
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I'm just, you know, thinking about my musical background.
• 12:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I grew up learning classical music.
• 12:33
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, uh, I, I'm a pianist and I used to play Bach.
• 12:37
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I used to play zot and, and as lovely as it is to improvise completely freely, Ines in sessions, you just think that actually there, there is beating clear boundaries as well.
• 12:54
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 12:54
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and some of that comes with just the structure of the, of music therapy sessions.
• 12:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But clearly I think at that, when, at a point in my career where, where I was wanting to do EMDR sessions, I was looking for, um, I was looking for a deeper understanding in trauma and attachments because that's when I've worked with the adoption community and the bereavement community for a few years.
• 13:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And and there is just something deeper that I, I wanted to get into.
• 13:28
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, I wanted another tool to use.
• 13:30
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I, I want a structure in my life.
• 13:33
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so it's not, and it's not entirely selfless that I, I think part, part of me as a therapist, as a clinician, I long for structure as well.
• 13:42
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so I started doing, doing the EMDR training, and it was, a cult is, it was a culture shock because the, you know, that level of, yeah, when this happened, you do this and then there's this, and then there's this.
• 13:57
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's absolutely unheard of in, in music therapy, you know?
• 14:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, right.
• 14:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So, so it was very, it was very unfamiliar for me.
• 14:10
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But, um, once I've finished the training.
• 14:14
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And I, I feel like I have a bit more confidence, I have a bit more freedom through supervision to kind of think about how to integrate these two things.
• 14:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Then you start seeing a lot of, a lot of things in common, actually, between how trauma manifest itself in the body.
• 14:32
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Music, because music is a bodily, is a physical experience.
• 14:38
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, just when you, you can't, you feel it.
• 14:41
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Yeah.
• 14:42
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You can't have music without a body, you know?
• 14:47
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You can't, you can't experience music without feeling it in your body, it's vibration.
• 14:53
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: When you talk, when you're saying you feel vibration in yourself, when you're watching someone drumming, you feel the vibration.
• 14:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Even if you listen to a piece of music with headphones on it, it's still vibration.
• 15:05
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 15:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And you know, the kind of the, our, our innate ability to move with music mm-hmm.
• 15:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Is, is movement.
• 15:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So there is something very innate and instinctive about music, and it's before, it's before we can form words.
• 15:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 15:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so that makes it a really important tool, even in EMDR with say, adopted children who have had early childhood trauma, who have had a attachment disruption early on.
• 15:43
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Because the, their ability to understand what's happening in the body is different from ours and their ability to, to use words might be different from, from ours as well.
• 15:58
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so, so, um, I'll give you an example.
• 16:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, one of the exercise that I often do in the first few sessions when I just met the child mm-hmm.
• 16:08
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I, um, I asked them, um.
• 16:11
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: How does excitement sound to you?
• 16:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, how, how, how would that sound?
• 16:16
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: On a, on a piano, and some of them are just, they would just go for it and it's just like very frantic.
• 16:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, usually high pitch, usually very fast.
• 16:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And then I ask the, I ask the same question, how does anxiety sound to you.
• 16:32
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And then it did exactly the same thing.
• 16:35
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And actually it's very interesting in that the way that, the way that children, or the way that young people experience anxiety and excitement is very similar at a bodily level.
• 16:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um.
• 16:51
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And then you think about regulation, you think about how parents tell you that, oh yeah, you know, my child, he was having such a lovely time.
• 17:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, I don't know what happened.
• 17:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, one moment he was giggling, he was laughing, and then another and, and then just a second later it was completely dysregulated.
• 17:10
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But actually when you think about the physical experience of anxiety and excitement, they have a lot in common.
• 17:17
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And music was able to, we were able to use music to help us understand that.
• 17:23
  Cathi Spooner: Hmm.
• 17:23
  Cathi Spooner: So that's.
• 17:29
  Cathi Spooner: That's very interesting.
• 17:32
  Cathi Spooner: Uh, do you ever, so when you were talking about adoption and, and working with, um, kids who experienced the early attachment wounds, do ever have parents in the sessions with the kids doing some of that attachment work using music?
• 17:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Yeah, sometimes we do, I would say more often in EMDR sessions than therapy sessions.
• 18:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, because with EMDR is specific in the bi bilateral stimulation, um, when, when I say bilateral stimulation, it means anything that involves kind of left right, the body going left, right, left right.
• 18:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Alternatively, so em, the name EMDR comes from eye movement.
• 18:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, right.
• 18:21
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But actually our tool really is bilateral movement, um, because we are trying to, um, encourage the, encourage the brain to make connections.
• 18:32
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so we know that through bilateral movement, um, the body's more able to process some of the difficult memories.
• 18:41
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I can go very geeky on that, but I I might save that for a time.
• 18:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, yeah, so, so very often in EMDR sessions, I mean, I don't need to tell you, it is just the weirdest thing.
• 18:57
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: If you tell a 7-year-old now, you move your eyes left to right, fall on my fingers, they, they're not gonna do it.
• 19:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Right.
• 19:04
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And even if you tell them to, oh, now, now do that.
• 19:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: They might, they might do that.
• 19:08
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, but actually we want to prioritize, prioritize giving them space to do the processing.
• 19:16
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, in, in EMDR with adopted children, we often do a kinda a technique called narrative where we, we consult with the parents or the social worker to write out, um, their live story and how, how they were removed, why they were removed from the bear family.
• 19:35
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Did they, um, spend time in Foster family was a positive experience and what are some positive experience that they, the child can hold onto at different point and what are the difficult times?
• 19:46
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and we write that in, um, in a third person stance.
• 19:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So we don't write it directly about little Jimmy, we write it about, um, a little Bear called Jake.
• 19:56
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 19:57
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: To give a bit more distance.
• 19:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um.
• 20:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But as I read that story to little Jim, Jimmy, I might ask the parents, can you do gentle tapping?
• 20:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Because there is something very valuable about developing that co-regulation skills.
• 20:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 20:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And also the, I'm trying to not be too fake here.
• 20:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: There is something really valuable in adoptive parents seeing that the child is capable of processing some difficult trauma from the past.
• 20:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: That's okay.
• 20:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So that, you know, that kind of giving, also giving the parents hope as well.
• 20:35
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 20:35
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So we do, we do sometimes have, um, parents in the room, especially if the child feels a lot more comfortable, I am essentially a stranger to them, and I'm a, I'm a stranger reading the live story to them.
• 20:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So it is often helpful to have a trusted adult in the room as well.
• 20:54
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, where, whereas with music therapy, it's slightly different in that, in that we know that the child's relationship with the adopted parents sometimes can be very complicated.
• 21:09
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 21:09
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and then, and therefore the home the family home as an environment might not be the most, most neutral environment for therapy sessions to happen.
• 21:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So sometimes we offer those sessions at school where they have very clear structure, where they have routine, where they feel very safe.
• 21:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And, and, and can practically is it's, it would mean that we will see the child in a one-to-one manner.
• 21:37
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um.
• 21:39
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I, I think it's equally helpful for some of the older children to have that one-to-one space to explore some difficult themes that they experience with the adoptive parents because they might not, they might not have the confidence in their bond to, to kind of say it.
• 21:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Actually, I don't, I don't like the tuna melt you made yesterday be because, because then they might think, oh, if I say that, what if they don't?
• 22:10
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: What, what if they don't like me, would I be sent back?
• 22:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, there, there is a, um, a much bigger baggage for them to be able to voice what they think of their parents, honestly.
• 22:23
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And so it's quite helpful sometimes to have that space as well.
• 22:28
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 22:31
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 22:32
  Cathi Spooner: I, you know, it's interesting because you were, you were talking about the, so using music therapy can be on a spectrum of very structured to very unstructured.
• 22:46
  Cathi Spooner: And then integrating in another modality that's very, very structured, especially when you're working on some of those, those trauma experiences and some of those can include the attachment experiences.
• 23:03
  Cathi Spooner: I think in play therapy we, we experience similar things in terms of trying to figure out how are we gonna integrate the modalities that we're learning, how do we take play and make it therapeutic and not just like one of the questions that comes up all the time, 'cause I do a lot of consultation.
• 23:27
  Cathi Spooner: And I have a consultation program called Play Therapy Academy, and now I have a, I started a membership for people that didn't need me Play Therapy Academy.
• 23:37
  Cathi Spooner: It's called Play Therapy Elevation Circle.
• 23:40
  Cathi Spooner: That one's newer, but in In Play Therapy Academy, one of the things, over the years, that has come up quite a bit is which I, I assume it's similar for music therapy, which is, um, well, how do I know if it's more than just playing, you know, like just playing in the therapy session.
• 24:07
  Cathi Spooner: And to me, this is where your theory models come into play.
• 24:12
  Cathi Spooner: Just by the nature of being in a therapy office with the trained play therapist, or in your case a trained music therapist who also has some other modalities that you've learned as well.
• 24:28
  Cathi Spooner: But our presence in there, in and of itself, just our presence makes it different.
• 24:36
  Cathi Spooner: But I'm, as I'm, I'm kind of guessing that you also get that question of, well, aren't you just doing music and that therapeutic.
• 24:49
  Cathi Spooner: And then also like the, the second kinda layer of that, that doesn't necessarily come from parents as much I think from, for in, in my field, more the play therapist of, I have these different modalities.
• 25:07
  Cathi Spooner: Like play, play therapy.
• 25:09
  Cathi Spooner: I know the term therapeutic powers of play, but I don't really know what that means a lot of times.
• 25:17
  Cathi Spooner: And so we really look at it, but how do I integrate these two different things?
• 25:23
  Cathi Spooner: And you were talking a little, a little bit about that.
• 25:26
  Cathi Spooner: So I, I kind of did a wide spectrum there all over the place from like, how, how do you make sure not how do you make sure, but, uh, what are your thoughts on, um, why is it not just, you know, we're just playing music in there and that whole piece of, as you're integrating music and the work that you're doing, how, how for you, how do, are you able to do that?
• 26:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I think two very big, I think it is actually about communications.
• 26:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: How do we communicate our work effectively with people who are not in the room?
• 26:12
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Because we don't need to convince ourselves that we are doing therapy.
• 26:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I mean, um, if, if you do, then, then you might need your own therapy and, and you definitely need supervision if you question that.
• 26:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 26:22
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, but I, I think another way to look at music therapy is to use music to achieve non-musical goals.
• 26:30
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And if you think of it this way, then you ought to be able to articulate your goals.
• 26:36
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: What are you trying to achieve?
• 26:39
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm. And I think this is the part where we, I, I, I think in creative therapy, in creative modalities that we don't talk about enough, because if we don't talk about that, there is a danger that our work would sound wishy-washy.
• 26:58
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 26:59
  Cathi Spooner: That's a good point.
• 27:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But, but I think we shy away from talking about it because it takes away the creativity or, or someone, some of us might feel like it takes away the, the, the creativity of the process or the therapeutic process, which is essentially what we do.
• 27:19
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 27:19
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So I think to answer your question, it is not, it is, it is not about questioning whether our work is therapeutic or not.
• 27:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It is about how do we communicate our work to show people that our work is effective and uh, and is therapeutic.
• 27:42
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And for me, one of the best ways to do that is to be very clear about what you're trying to achieve in sessions.
• 27:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 27:50
  Cathi Spooner: I agree.
• 27:50
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And therefore, yeah.
• 27:52
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Sorry, what?
• 27:53
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: No, no, no.
• 27:53
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's all right.
• 27:54
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And therefore, when you review it, you have to be able to articulate your clinical thinking.
• 27:58
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Why?
• 28:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Why am I playing?
• 28:02
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Why do I respond to the client's music that way?
• 28:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And if I'm able to articulate it in clinical language and communicate that with the person who's asking me, well, aren't you just playing music actually?
• 28:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, I, I think that answers the questions.
• 28:23
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: If, if we are able to use clinical language to answer that, that kind of, that query, then the work is very clear that we have, we have engaged our therapeutic thinking in the process.
• 28:37
  Cathi Spooner: I, yeah, I totally agree.
• 28:39
  Cathi Spooner: And I kind of say that, uh uh, pretty, pretty similar, along the same lines that you explained it.
• 28:46
  Cathi Spooner: That's kind of how I explain it as well.
• 28:49
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and I, I think, I think the hard part is when people are just learning these modalities.
• 28:58
  Cathi Spooner: There's a level of imposter syndrome that comes up and I don't, you know, I don't feel confident in my own skills.
• 29:07
  Cathi Spooner: So when I get asked these questions, I don't really know how to explain it.
• 29:13
  Cathi Spooner: Which to me, you kind of alluded to.
• 29:16
  Cathi Spooner: Supervision and consultation was really, I think, important, one, help boost your skill level, which is gonna boost your confidence.
• 29:26
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 29:26
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 29:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It reminds me of a conversation I had with my placement supervisor.
• 29:33
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So when I was back, when, when I was training.
• 29:36
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I was, um, talking about how, how guilty I felt about leaving, 'cause I was leaving, my placement was finishing and, uh, and I, it was hospice work.
• 29:47
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 29:47
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And hospice work, you have a lot of focus on death and living.
• 29:53
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 29:53
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And that's another little nugget when, when we do hospice work, we do the work of death, but that also means that we do the work of living.
• 30:02
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: 'cause you can't do the work of death without doing the work of living.
• 30:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, anyway, uh, that's a really good point.
• 30:10
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I love that, that yeah, she's four.
• 30:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: She is four of little nuggets like that.
• 30:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: My supervisor, my placement supervisor.
• 30:18
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, but um, in our last supervision session, I was feeling awfully guilty about leaving a client.
• 30:25
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And feeling that I couldn't see it till the end with, with my client, um, you know, see, see it till they die.
• 30:33
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 30:34
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And she said to me, Crystal, I think you've got to be more professional.
• 30:40
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And she said, it sounds awful when I say it like this.
• 30:43
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And, and I don't mean it in a rude way.
• 30:47
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 30:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Actually, part of the, the part of the value of our work is the boundary.
• 30:53
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 30:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and actually when we are so in our head thinking, oh, I've really let this person down.
• 31:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I'm, I, I'm not good enough.
• 31:02
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Am I even doing this?
• 31:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Actually, the, the, the time that we spend kind of thinking about those things are times that we can't be present with our client.
• 31:11
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 31:11
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And we, that we can't put our focus on our client.
• 31:17
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And, and then that is not to say that those thoughts are not valid and those thoughts are not.
• 31:23
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, clinically valuable because we do need to acknowledge those thoughts and be curious about whether it's countertransference or whether it's our stuff or not.
• 31:32
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Uh, or maybe perhaps it's both.
• 31:36
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But I think is important for us to be able to kind of just kind of look at it very objectively and think.
• 31:44
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Right.
• 31:45
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I'm feeling, I'm questioning my work here.
• 31:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: What is it?
• 31:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Is it because, is it because I dunno what I'm doing?
• 31:52
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Is it because the client's response is not something that I expected?
• 31:58
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Is it because I'm not seeing the results that I want to see?
• 32:03
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And then you question actually is the therapy for me or for my clients?
• 32:07
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, so, right.
• 32:08
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So allow, allow yourselves to be informed by those thoughts.
• 32:14
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Actually, those are really added and, and prompt for us to be curious about.
• 32:22
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, so we have a, a question actually.
• 32:27
  Cathi Spooner: Hey, Sharon Ann.
• 32:29
  Cathi Spooner: Sharon Ann and I connected on LinkedIn.
• 32:33
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so Sharon Ann asks in play therapy is actually, it's a really good question Sharon Ann.
• 32:40
  Cathi Spooner: Um.
• 32:41
  Cathi Spooner: In play therapy and music therapy do you find that the client emotionally regulates more through the toys or through the therapist body language and voice?
• 32:53
  Cathi Spooner: How does the scaffolding also play out in music therapy, which she then adds how to scaffolding play out in the environment as well?
• 33:04
  Cathi Spooner: That's a great question.
• 33:06
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 33:07
  Cathi Spooner: Um.
• 33:08
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, that emotion regulation piece.
• 33:10
  Cathi Spooner: And where does that come from, do you think?
• 33:15
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, I think about the, what, what the client is exposed to in am meeting therapy session.
• 33:25
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So there is the rooms, it, like Cheryl Ann said, there's the, the environment, the music therapy room there is me, and then there is this, um, this music.
• 33:37
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So if you, let's tick, tick them apart.
• 33:40
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: There are three elements.
• 33:41
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So in terms of the environment, um.
• 33:46
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I imagine it's the same in play therapy as well.
• 33:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Yeah, I was just thinking
• 33:50
  Cathi Spooner: about the same three things.
• 33:51
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 33:52
  Cathi Spooner: Instead of music, it would be whatever the toys are in the play therapy, playroom.
• 33:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Yeah.
• 34:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Consistency.
• 34:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, especially in adoption work.
• 34:04
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, you would be, you might not be surprised, but um, some children are extremely hypervigilant.
• 34:09
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So if I, um, if I take out one beater from a Jar beaters, they would know, they would immediately walk in a room and they would ask, oh, where, where's that rainbow beta gone?
• 34:24
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: You know, they, they, they would know.
• 34:25
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And that's, that's very telling.
• 34:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: That's from the trauma they had.
• 34:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: They have had to be very hypervigilant when they were, when they were little.
• 34:33
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: They have to check the environment to make sure that they're safe.
• 34:36
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So there is, um.
• 34:38
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: There is the consistency in the in the room, consistency in session time and session duration.
• 34:44
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and, and whether the room is set up safely or not.
• 34:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And that would be different depending on the child.
• 34:50
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Some, you might find a child who is, really keen to open the lit of the, of the grand piano.
• 34:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And then you think actually this might not be the best room to use.
• 35:02
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And other children just, you know, don't, don't think about the lit at all.
• 35:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Not, it doesn't interest them.
• 35:07
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So it really depends from the child's child's, um, but also accessibility as well.
• 35:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Uh, a wheelchair bound child would need instruments, that, that that's within their reach.
• 35:21
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 35:21
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So there is lots of thoughtfulness around the setup of the room, what kind of instruments the child wants.
• 35:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, something I like doing in one of the first few sessions is if I work in a school, I would take them to the school hall where all the, all the instruments are, and I will ask them to choose their own instruments.
• 35:40
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so, so there is.
• 35:43
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: There is some sense of empowerment in there, but also, you know, giving them the choice.
• 35:48
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: What, show me, tell me what instruments are you interested in?
• 35:52
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So that's the environment and then there's the, the, that's there's me, the therapist and how, how I present myself.
• 35:59
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And I think consistency is important.
• 36:01
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So you see a lot of, um, school, in fact just, it was quite funny.
• 36:06
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Uh, one of the schools that I go to, bless them.
• 36:10
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: They have every week I go in, 'cause I go in on a Friday, so every week I go in they have a different, different theme.
• 36:16
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So they have, um, give racism the red card where everybody dresses red and they have crazy hair day wear like the, the headmaster wear a crazy wick and.
• 36:27
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And sometimes, you know, sometimes I like to join i, I like to join in subtly.
• 36:31
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, but they always, always ask me, have you missed a memo again, Crystal, why?
• 36:37
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Why aren't you coming in with pen?
• 36:38
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And, and actually there is, there is a rationale for that because I want to present to be someone who's consistent and someone who's, who's routine.
• 36:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Someone who's, who's safe, um mm-hmm.
• 36:52
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And actually rocking up to school with pink hair one week, suddenly it's not the safest thing.
• 36:58
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so, um, and yes, um, the, our voice, the tone that we use, we know their children tick in our tone and our facial expressions and our gestures before they take in the words that we say.
• 37:13
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 37:14
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And I often, one of the phrases I love using, even with adults, like with bere parents, I love using these.
• 37:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: When someone is dysregulated, say, when someone's having a flashback or panic attack, it's the survival parts the brain kicking off.
• 37:30
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So the survival part of the brain is trying to keep them safe, it's trying to do its job and that part of the brain doesn't speak English.
• 37:36
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: That part of the brain speaks sensory information.
• 37:39
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 37:39
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So we are talking about gesture and the tone of voice.
• 37:42
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: The pitch of voice.
• 37:43
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: How, um, how wide the pitch range.
• 37:46
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So if you think about me, talk, me talking now actually our picture range is quite, quite, it's quite a small range.
• 37:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: But if I talk like this, and I don't actually just for, I mean for me talking like that, it, it kind of gave me a kind of a body shock and, and then you wonder, oh, how would that feel for a young person?
• 38:09
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 38:10
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So there is a, a lot about the, the kind of being quite curated about the kind of music we use and how we sing the, you know, our singing voice and the kind of um, piano.
• 38:23
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So I, I'm a pianist.
• 38:24
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: The, the kind of musical contribution I make.
• 38:28
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so being very, um, mindful of that, and that kind of touched on the third presence, the, the music.
• 38:39
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um.
• 38:39
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 38:40
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: And like I said earlier, what I love about music is you can be as structured as you like and you can be as free flow as you like.
• 38:49
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So if you think about, um, say the most, um, joy to the world, say joy to the world, why does that sound comforting to us it's, it is because the rhythm is very stand, is very steady.
• 39:05
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's not has come, is it's very, um, expected.
• 39:14
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: There's no surprise harmonically.
• 39:17
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's a very standard core progression.
• 39:20
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, it kind of starts with.
• 39:23
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It, it starts with a theme and then it ends with a very expected cadence musically.
• 39:29
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: So for someone who's listening to that, there's, this is a, is a major, um, it's in a major key.
• 39:37
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: It's a very harmonious piece and very safe piece to, uh, to listen to.
• 39:44
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Whereas if you choose a piece of music, you know, late later classical music, something like Skov, um, or, or some of, um, some uh, movie music then, then you might evoke a bit bigger.
• 39:57
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Mm-hmm.
• 39:58
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, kinda a bigger surprise.
• 40:00
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, and it depends on the child's capacity or the client's capacity to tolerate those surprises.
• 40:09
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 40:09
  Cathi Spooner: Well, thank you so much.
• 40:11
  Cathi Spooner: We are gonna wrap up.
• 40:14
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you so much, Crystal, for coming and sharing your knowledge and experience with music therapy.
• 40:22
  Cathi Spooner: It's, um, it's really interesting to me as a play therapist, just the, um, nuances, so to speak for music therapy and how those can be very similar in a different way with play therapy.
• 40:41
  Cathi Spooner: So we are gonna use those therapeutic powers of play based on our theoretical model to, um, and the, the, the same kind of structure with the, with the environment and the toys or whatever activities we're choosing.
• 40:59
  Cathi Spooner: And the therapeutic relationship, and I think what you did a really nice job of is highlighting the difference between music therapy and play therapy.
• 41:12
  Cathi Spooner: In that as play therapists, we can use music in the play therapy process.
• 41:21
  Cathi Spooner: We are going to use music, um, to access those therapeutic powers of play within our therapeutic uh, therapeutic model and as a play, as a music therapist, you are trained in the nuances of music and sound and how to use that in the, the healing process.
• 41:45
  Cathi Spooner: So I, so I appreciate your explanation really about those, those differences, and then also how you have integrated that different models, right?
• 41:58
  Cathi Spooner: EMDR and music theory and, and found a way to access the, the power of both.
• 42:07
  Cathi Spooner: So to speak for healing.
• 42:08
  Cathi Spooner: So thank you so much for coming.
• 42:12
  Cathi Spooner: If people want to reach out to you and connect and chat more about music therapy and how you do the use that in your work with children and grief and loss and trauma and attachment issues, how, what's the best way to find you or connect with you?
• 42:32
  Cathi Spooner: Um,
• 42:34
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: I think my practice name clap is probably easier to remember than my full name.
• 42:41
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, if you find me on Instagram, you, you will know that we, you will see that we're not very active on Instagram.
• 42:47
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: That's because we spend most of our time in the therapy room.
• 42:50
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, but I do answer messages or you can add me on LinkedIn and we can have the chat.
• 42:55
  Crystal Luk-Worrall: Um, so my full name is Crystal Vro and you can also drop me a message on my website, www.clapandtoot.com.
• 43:05
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 43:06
  Cathi Spooner: And we're gonna post that in the, uh, comments.
• 43:10
  Cathi Spooner: So the website is clap and toot.com and we'll post that in the comments.
• 43:16
  Cathi Spooner: You can find that.
• 43:18
  Cathi Spooner: And then we'll um, drop links in the comments for connecting with Crystal on LinkedIn and Instagram, and so thank you for coming and I will see all of you next week.
• 43:33
  Cathi Spooner: Bye for now.
• 43:41
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 43:45
  Cathi Spooner: I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 43:54
  Cathi Spooner: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 44:00
  Cathi Spooner: Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 44:06
  Cathi Spooner: Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 44:10
  Cathi Spooner: Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships.
• 44:22
  Cathi Spooner: If you have any questions or topics, suggestions for future episodes.
• 44:27
  Cathi Spooner: I'd love to hear from you.
• 44:29
  Cathi Spooner: Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 44:41
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 44:45
  Cathi Spooner: Until next time, keep playing, learning and growing.