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Wild Horse Fire Brigade with Michelle Gough · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:00
  Hi, I am is she Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix.
• 0:03
  Today I have with me Michelle Goff with WildHorse Fire Brigade, and I'm really excited to have more conversation with her.
• 0:10
  She's also William's partner.
• 0:13
  So while William brought a lot of the facts and kind of an educated perspective to this, Michelle has a lot of.
• 0:20
  Very personal experiences with the horses that are magical, and she and I both share that.
• 0:27
  So I'm super excited to have this conversation with her.
• 0:30
  Welcome, Michelle.
• 0:31
  Thank you.
• 0:32
  Thank you for having me on your podcast, and I'm really grateful to be here.
• 0:37
  And just like you said, that I'm a one of the founders of WildHorse Fire Brigade and we're a public benefit 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit and with the ultimate goal of taking gathered wild horses.
• 0:50
  And the idea would be to keep the family bands together.
• 0:54
  So basically taking the gathered horses that are in conflict.
• 0:57
  With the economic pressures and instead of sterilizing them and putting'em into long-term holding you know, as well as the other tragic paths that they tend to travel instead putting them into wilderness areas.
• 1:11
  We don't have those conflicts.
• 1:13
  And this also would apply to the horses that are in a long-term holding.
• 1:17
  So we currently own and manage about 200 free roaming wild horses.
• 1:22
  And that number includes 65 BLM branded mustangs that were saved from kill auctions and that we've rewild it into our herd.
• 1:31
  And I've been with them nearly every day for the last five years.
• 1:36
  So I have this luxury of interacting with them and not just random individuals, but with multiple family bands and all of the actions, all of the interactions are always on their terms.
• 1:51
  So being accepted into the herd has been a real honor and privilege for me.
• 1:56
  The first time I ever was ever around a horse, I was five years old.
• 2:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:00
  And my mom took me to this riding barn and they paired me up with this little gentle little paint marere.
• 2:06
  And her name was Abby.
• 2:09
  And my mom, she rode this big, gorgeous chestnut and he was a retired thoroughbred resource and his name was Rabbit.
• 2:18
  She would take him into this big open field and she would go full throttle.
• 2:22
  And if you would've asked me back then, freedom was,.
• 2:27
  I would've described that scene of my mom riding on this horse, running in this big, beautiful green open meadow.
• 2:36
  And like at lightning speed, and I could see that fire in that horse's eyes.
• 2:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:43
  And I could see that my mom was in her bliss.
• 2:47
  So after interacting with and riding that sweet little paint marere, and then watching my mom with that big chest.
• 2:56
  I became absolutely obsessed with horses.
• 2:59
  And luckily for me, my grandmother, she was a librarian, so I called her up and I begged her to get me every single book on horses that she could find.
• 3:09
  And she sent me three books.
• 3:12
  And one of'em was an encyclopedia of horses.
• 3:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:17
  And I studied it.
• 3:18
  Every day, and I could tell you about every single breed of horses.
• 3:22
  But interestingly, there was not a single word about North America's wild horses, right?
• 3:30
  I I remember studying the encyclopedia as a child too.
• 3:34
  The page where the horses were opened, the h opened automatically to horses.
• 3:38
  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 3:39
  Got a lot of use.
• 3:41
  Oh, that's great.
• 3:42
  And I love that image of freedom that you're describing.
• 3:46
  Yeah.
• 3:46
  And that's a lot of what we're talking about is.
• 3:48
  Freedom and the representation of our freedom, the freedom of the wild horse.
• 3:53
  I'm gonna jump into these questions if, if that's okay.
• 3:56
  Yeah, yeah.
• 3:57
  Go right ahead.
• 3:58
  So, living among the herd rather than managing them, what has it taught you about communication, trust, and belonging?
• 4:10
  Well, I think that there's a lot of ground to cover here, but I'm gonna start by saying that I feel like humans are quickly losing their way, or, or maybe I should say, we as humans are losing our way.
• 4:23
  And you know, by the way, I hear this all the time people talking about how mean people have gotten since COVID and there seems to be a lot less kindness and, and grace and respect.
• 4:35
  And we have to ask ourselves like, what's happening here?
• 4:39
  And I believe at least part of the puzzle is that.
• 4:44
  There's an issue with connectedness and how we're quickly traveling down this path of isolation and disconnection from each other.
• 4:53
  And I think that a large part of that is related to most people's connectedness to their devices, and which is in turn impacting their connectedness with other people and even to the natural world.
• 5:07
  So.
• 5:08
  We're not connecting with each other, and we're not connecting with the natural world.
• 5:13
  So I have this friend, this friend in San Francisco, and she takes the bus to and from work.
• 5:19
  So I get a glimpse of city life through her lens.
• 5:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:23
  And she was telling me this really sad story about these babies and these toddlers, you know, they're on the bus with their parents and.
• 5:32
  They're looking around and they're smiling and they're giggling, and they're looking for another friendly face to engage.
• 5:39
  But everyone's oblivious because they're so consumed with their devices.
• 5:44
  And just when you think it couldn't get any worse, mom shoves the device in the baby's face, and it's at that moment when that vibrant expression gets lost.
• 5:55
  So with that in mind.
• 5:59
  I would say that living with the herd has been like stepping into a masterclass on connection taught by sentient beings who communicate with raw honesty and presence.
• 6:12
  I had this profound moment of trust with one of the mayors here.
• 6:15
  Her name is Phoenix.
• 6:17
  I've known her since she was just like a few days old and the first day I met her, she walked right up to me and she started nursing my chin.
• 6:27
  And so over the years that we've developed this really close bond, and I remember last year.
• 6:35
  We had a family band.
• 6:36
  They were hanging out in the yard and it included Phoenix and there was a stallion, another mare, and then two juveniles.
• 6:43
  And we had this big giant scary dump truck up here.
• 6:47
  There was, it was up here to lay gravel, but when it, they heard it and they saw it coming up the driveway, it scared'em.
• 6:53
  So they all took off running.
• 6:54
  And as they were running past me Phoenix, she had this very perplexed look on her face because she was looking at me like, well, why aren't you running?
• 7:02
  So it was in that moment that she stopped and she turned around and she leaned up against me.
• 7:10
  And then we were shoulder to shoulder, both facing this big mean dump truck and wow.
• 7:16
  If people understand horses and running and dysregulation and fear and being a prey animal, that is an amazing thing for that horse to do.
• 7:27
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:29
  And it was in that moment in time that, you know, I really, I came to realize her depth of trust in me.
• 7:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 7:36
  Horses, they don't hide their feelings or intentions.
• 7:39
  They live in the moment and their trust is earned basically through consistency and authenticity.
• 7:46
  You know, when you're among them and not as a controller, but as a participant you learn that trust isn't something you command.
• 7:54
  It's something that you build through mutual respect and bonding.
• 7:58
  And they choose the pace and the extent of that connection.
• 8:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:03
  And so there's horses in each band that, they're more curious about that connection than the other horses.
• 8:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:09
  So when that curiosity kicks in, they will seek you out.
• 8:14
  And it starts with this intent look from across the field and then they start getting closer and closer.
• 8:21
  And once they get comfortable, they'll eventually come up with you, come up to you, and they'll share a, they'll, they will share breath.
• 8:28
  And people ask me all the time, they're like, well, what does that mean?
• 8:32
  So when a horse shares breath with you, well, I mean, they essentially put their face right up to your face and it can be very subtle, like a very cautious.
• 8:42
  Really stretched out neck with just a brief sniff all the way to getting your whole face sniffed.
• 8:48
  And sometimes they'll even put their whole nose hole like right over my nose and and they take these deep rhythmic breaths and to take in your scent and their nose is really soft and you can smell the macerated grass that they've eaten and you can smell their horsey scent.
• 9:07
  And sometimes they had mud on their face and you know, I'll get mud smeared on my face or sometimes they had just taken a big drink of water and I'll get a little face shower.
• 9:17
  But I always try to, you know, orient my face so that I can look into their eye while we're sharing breath, because I think that deepens the connection.
• 9:26
  And they will in instigate they instigate this.
• 9:29
  Like, I, I'm smiling so much because I love your descriptions.
• 9:33
  I love your description of like how we're so disconnected and what happened after COVID.
• 9:38
  It's actually, there's neuroscience behind.
• 9:41
  The disconnection that happened to us and what we're still suffering from, and we don't realize.
• 9:46
  And I love the description of, of this sharing breath.
• 9:51
  And my, I have one horse that particularly loves to do that, and I just, it's just, it's so deeply connecting that I was really smiling when you were describing that because it's Exactly, that's exactly it and right.
• 10:04
  I saw somewhere you might be familiar with it, and I, I don't have it in front of me, but maybe I'll look for it and put it in the notes if there's enough room and I can find it.
• 10:11
  It's a beautiful Uhhuh poem about, and I think it's of Native Origin, or maybe it's Scandinavian, I don't know, but it is about that shared breath and what it means with horses, okay?
• 10:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:24
  What it means to them, right?
• 10:25
  I mean, it's a universal, it's a universal way that they show us.
• 10:32
  Right.
• 10:33
  How they wanna connect.
• 10:36
  Exactly.
• 10:36
  I mean, it basically, they're, they're interested enough in you to really wanna take in your sense, and that means that they really wanna get to know you better.
• 10:44
  I mean, that's how they.
• 10:46
  You know, they touch noses and they share breath with each other.
• 10:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:49
  And when the foes do it, and invariably they bump their little nose into your face and you can even sometimes taste the milk that is still on their lips from nursing their mom if they bump their milky face.
• 11:01
  Right.
• 11:01
  You know, their little milky lips right into your face.
• 11:05
  And I would say that this is an example of resonant coherence.
• 11:09
  'cause, and then people ask me, well, what does that mean?
• 11:12
  And you know.
• 11:15
  The way I think of it is it's just like this harmonious alignment.
• 11:19
  It's a state where your energy, emotions, and intentions vibrate in sync with that of the wild horses.
• 11:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:25
  And.
• 11:27
  You know, you know, we talked about how sharing breath is basically how they wanna get to know you.
• 11:32
  And you know, this whole time they've been studying me as I've been studying them.
• 11:37
  And I have this great photograph that I took of William and he's taking picture of this young stud cult's whiskers on his face.
• 11:44
  So he is a camera, like right in the horse's face, and he's sniffing.
• 11:49
  He's got his neck stretched way out.
• 11:51
  He's sniffing the camera and he's sniffing William.
• 11:54
  And we call this picture who is studying who.
• 11:58
  That sounds, that sounds beautiful.
• 12:00
  Yeah.
• 12:01
  And then communication, communication with horses is where things get really fascinating.
• 12:06
  While, I mean, yes, they have their individual vocalizations.
• 12:09
  But their body language, their energy, their subtle cues speak volumes.
• 12:15
  And if you're willing to listen, so living among them really sharpens your ability to listen beyond words.
• 12:23
  So to notice like a flicked ear or a softened eye.
• 12:28
  Or even a tense flank.
• 12:29
  And then there's the obvious body language.
• 12:32
  There's a few horses out there, they that show me trust and affection, and what they do is they'll put their head over my shoulder and they'll pull me into their chest.
• 12:42
  And so I'm getting like a big horsey hug and you know, there's this purity of intention and love that, that the wild horses have showed me.
• 12:50
  And now most don't let you get that close, but there's still an obvious mutual respect.
• 12:56
  And all this has made me realize how much we humans rely on verbal language and we're missing unspoken, and especially in this digital age.
• 13:06
  And in living with the wild horses, I've also learned to mirror their clarity.
• 13:11
  If I'm anxious or distracted, the herd will pick up on it immediately.
• 13:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:15
  And then they'll reflect it back.
• 13:17
  And, I mean, what does that look like?
• 13:19
  And sometimes it's just they'll walk away or, you know, I can see that they're tense, a little tense, a little on edge, and you can see the tension in their eyes.
• 13:30
  So to communicate effectively, you have to align your intentions with your actions, and this is also spilled over into my human relationships.
• 13:39
  So, I mean, after all, being present and clear, it's a, it's a universal language.
• 13:45
  These are, these are beautiful observations and it, it, it amazes me, but it doesn't like there are pockets of people that are sharing these experiences.
• 13:55
  Everything that you've said, I have experienced that and I know several other people that are slowing down, like the horses are successfully teaching us mm-hmm.
• 14:04
  In many places.
• 14:06
  And it's getting to the point where it's spreading.
• 14:09
  Right through you talking about it.
• 14:11
  Through me talking about it.
• 14:13
  Right.
• 14:13
  And it's so important.
• 14:15
  It's just, you know, your, your description too about what's missing about connection to the land, connection to each other.
• 14:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:23
  Connection to ourselves.
• 14:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:25
  That's what my, my retreats teach.
• 14:27
  Like those are the, I don't even know if you knew this.
• 14:30
  Those are the, no, I didn't know that.
• 14:32
  Those are okay.
• 14:32
  I mean, you did a perfect commercial for my retreats.
• 14:35
  Like, it's like it couldn't have been better and so it's so needed, like that is what we need.
• 14:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:42
  In my right, in my opinion.
• 14:44
  Yeah.
• 14:44
  Right, right.
• 14:46
  And then as for belonging, the her has shown me it's much more than just fitting in.
• 14:50
  It's about being accepted for who you are within that group's rhythm.
• 14:55
  So horses have their roles, you know, you have the leaders.
• 14:58
  You have the protectors, you have the nurturers, and they don't force each other to be something they're not.
• 15:04
  So when I exist alongside them, you know, I've found my place in their world.
• 15:10
  So there's a moment I'll never forget.
• 15:12
  I was standing next to a family band and it was in the early afternoon and they were all standing under this cluster of juniper trees and they were all napping, and I could feel all of us were breathing in sync.
• 15:26
  And the energy was powerful, but it was meditative.
• 15:29
  I mean, it was like, it was almost hypnotic.
• 15:33
  It was this deep relaxing state that they shared with me and I was open enough to accept it.
• 15:38
  And I mean even bask in it.
• 15:41
  And you know that's belonging.
• 15:42
  It's not imposed, but it's earned through shared presence and space.
• 15:47
  So ultimately, living among the herd has taught me that trust, communication, and belonging are all interconnected.
• 15:54
  I mean, you can't have one without the others and horses, and they don't let you fake it.
• 16:00
  They demand that you show up fully and in return they offer a kind of connection that's about as real as it gets.
• 16:07
  Yeah, I, I've had that experience too, of walking into a herd of 30 horses that were living wild on 300 acres.
• 16:14
  Not entirely wild, they were being fed, but mm-hmm.
• 16:18
  And walking into their force field, the electromagnetic field of their hearts that's joined together with that many horses, and I mean, it was really like walking into a force field, like from Star Trek.
• 16:30
  Right.
• 16:30
  It was just filled with love.
• 16:32
  Yeah.
• 16:32
  And you can feel it.
• 16:33
  Yeah.
• 16:33
  You feel that?
• 16:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:35
  Yeah, it's incredible.
• 16:37
  And so it's pretty, it's pretty intense.
• 16:39
  It's really intense.
• 16:40
  And so the fact that, and I'm sure it affects our brainwaves, like I would love to see measurements of that and understand that better.
• 16:46
  But it's enough just to experience it.
• 16:49
  And I only think that when humans lived in tribes that, and with horses that we magnified that, that we magnified each other.
• 16:59
  Yeah.
• 17:00
  And that people lived.
• 17:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:01
  Like it just.
• 17:03
  It just moves my heart.
• 17:06
  Comparing the scene you're talking about on a bus to what it would be like to live in a tribal society that felt like it does, walking into the heartfield of a herd of horses, like we're missing it.
• 17:19
  Right.
• 17:19
  We're just missing.
• 17:20
  Absolutely.
• 17:21
  Yeah.
• 17:23
  Absolutely.
• 17:25
  I'm gonna go to the next question.
• 17:26
  Okay.
• 17:28
  Okay.
• 17:28
  Emotional field and healing.
• 17:30
  Can you share a moment when a WildHorse responded to your emotional state in a way that changed how you understood healing or connection?
• 17:41
  Yeah.
• 17:42
  I had this very unique experience with a mare where we were both grieving over together, over her dying full.
• 17:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:49
  And, this is a very emotionally tough one to discuss, but you know, I think it's really important for people to hear about it.
• 17:56
  So we have this very fierce mirror out here and her name is Cinnamon Chai.
• 18:01
  And this girl, she is full of fire and she's the mayor in this particular family band.
• 18:07
  If any other horse approaches, she's the first to charge Adam.
• 18:11
  She'll do the double real, kick the ears back like the whole bit.
• 18:15
  And as far as my connection with her.
• 18:17
  We, there's a mutual respect, but she's a three feet bubble kind of girl, and that's, so I'm not allowed to breach that bubble.
• 18:25
  And this also applies to our herdmates and you know, that's just a part of who she is.
• 18:30
  So last year she had this cute little colt and we named him Archie.
• 18:35
  And they showed up one day last fall without him, and I'd been admiring him from afar.
• 18:41
  So I mean, I was pretty heartbroken realizing that he was gone and there was this heavy mournful air that hung over the entire family band, and their heads were all hung low, and they sort of just kind of slowly moved about.
• 18:54
  And I was absolutely heartbroken and I shed tears and I was just present with them.
• 19:00
  Well Newton rolls around and I looked down the hill and there was Archie.
• 19:05
  He's standing down there all alone and he was really weak and it probably took like every ounce of energy for him to.
• 19:15
  Come here from wherever he had been.
• 19:17
  And so I ran down that hill and he was so weak.
• 19:22
  He couldn't, like, he couldn't move, like he just stood in that one spot.
• 19:26
  And so, but he let me touch him and that's when I discovered the problem.
• 19:30
  He was covered in ticks, like every inch covered in ticks, and they were literally sucking the life force out of him.
• 19:39
  Wow.
• 19:39
  So.
• 19:41
  I ran up the, I ran back up to the cabin.
• 19:43
  I made some warm milk replacer for him.
• 19:47
  Just'cause I wanted to try to give him some comfort.
• 19:49
  So, and he took it.
• 19:50
  He was, he drank it from the little syringe.
• 19:54
  And while I was fussing with him, his mother and family band discovered that he was there.
• 20:00
  So they all came down the hill.
• 20:01
  And they were all very curious.
• 20:03
  And as they approached and got closer to Archie Cinnamon Shai, who is his mommy she started charging at all of her family members.
• 20:12
  She didn't want any of them anywhere near him.
• 20:15
  But she, she allowed me to proceed with feeding him and combing the ticks off of him.
• 20:22
  And she even stood right next to me, like literally inches away.
• 20:26
  And it was a really big deal considering her protective nature and her three feet bubble and her eyes.
• 20:33
  Each time I caught her gaze, she had these very soft eyes and it was clear that she accepted my partnership in comforting and protecting him through the last moments of his fragile little life.
• 20:46
  So for me, it was a soul stirring moment of trust and resonant coherence.
• 20:52
  And I was there by my, I was here at the ranch by myself that day.
• 20:57
  I didn't have any cell coverage where I was, so I stayed by his side for 10 hours and it was getting dark and the family band was leaving and I could hear the coyotes and the tree lines, so I wasn't gonna leave him.
• 21:11
  And I knew he was dying, and I didn't wanna leave him to the coyotes, and I didn't want him to die alone.
• 21:19
  So in poor Cinnamon Chi, she was so torn, she didn't wanna leave him behind again, but ultimately she had to keep up with her family band.
• 21:27
  But she did call and call for him as the family band moved further away.
• 21:32
  So we shared that grief as she stood next to me, which would typically be her three feet bubble, and it was heart wrenching for me, knowing that there wasn't anything that I could do to save his life.
• 21:44
  The only thing I could do was be there for him and offer.
• 21:47
  Comfort and compassion.
• 21:50
  And I even kneeled down in front of him at one point, and through his weakness, his curiosity shined through and he stiffed my whole face and he even shared breath with me and he was very affectionate and he leaned up against me like the whole time I was with him.
• 22:06
  And I was there.
• 22:08
  It was just the two of us as the life slipped away from him and I held him on my arms in his last moments.
• 22:15
  So this for me was an example of holding space with a dying cult and a mare while we were both grieving the same loss.
• 22:26
  And since that moment cinnamon Shaw gave birth to a cute little Philly this past spring, and she did that right here at the ranch.
• 22:35
  Right in front of us.
• 22:36
  Because they typically, they'll go to a very private spot to birth their fos, but she allowed us to be present as her new baby was being born, and she allowed us to watch her baby take very first steps.
• 22:49
  So in this deep connection with this marere.
• 22:52
  She was sharing renewed life with us.
• 22:54
  So this experience with this marere and our babies has demonstrated for me the emotional depth and the human horse bond, while also recognizing this is unique sensitivity.
• 23:07
  Of wild horses, and it's not just about the physical proximity or words, but about tuning into each other's energy.
• 23:15
  And horses, especially the wild ones, have this uncanny ability to mirror and absorb our emotions and they're sort of offering a a kind of silent partnership and healing that's basically unlike anything I've ever experienced.
• 23:28
  Yeah, that is a beautiful and touching story and.
• 23:34
  I just wanna comment like from, from a different viewpoint, like I know there are people out there who would question the validity of that and who would question that it's us projecting feelings onto horses, but I know right.
• 23:50
  I know that animals grieve.
• 23:51
  I know that horses grieve.
• 23:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:53
  I know that elephants grieve.
• 23:55
  Absolutely.
• 23:56
  And I've experienced that kind of connection too, where they share emotions.
• 24:00
  And I think, you know, horses have the largest limbic system of any land mammal, and their ability to empathize.
• 24:10
  Outshine.
• 24:11
  A lot of humans, they definitely have that ability, i'm just saying there is no question that these things happen There are no sick wild horses.
• 24:19
  There are no old wild horses.
• 24:20
  At least not for long, because there are predators.
• 24:23
  Right.
• 24:24
  And because that's the way the circle of life is designed.
• 24:28
  The whole idea of like twitching a horse is that you're releasing, endorphins.
• 24:34
  Mm-hmm., If horses are attacked by wolves, you know, and, and they bite on the face, which is what they do, and try to, you know, get the breath right.
• 24:44
  You know, put their mouth over the breath.
• 24:46
  So the horse suffocates.
• 24:47
  But the act of like pulling on the lips activates these endorphins that you know about this.
• 24:53
  Yeah.
• 24:53
  Yeah.
• 24:53
  That, that ease the death that, like giving right someone dying, morphine Right.
• 24:58
  Allows them exactly to die with that grace and with not the fear that Right.
• 25:05
  That would be present.
• 25:07
  And, and at the same time, there are very real emotions that.
• 25:16
  Live in animals that are not mm-hmm.
• 25:18
  That are not recognized and right.
• 25:22
  To me, there's also a point about that these are wild horses.
• 25:25
  Like you might expect more of that in domestic horses, like in doc, like they live with us so they know us, so maybe there's more exchange and these horses know you and, and they're communicating that.
• 25:38
  And communicating through emotion is something that animals do like Right.
• 25:44
  They don't have words, but they have an empath way to communicate, right?
• 25:53
  Yeah.
• 25:54
  Yeah.
• 25:54
  You know, we had one of the horses that I bonded with as a a Philly and she, we were really bonded and when the next generation of horses were born.
• 26:08
  I was also interacting with another young Philly.
• 26:11
  And she didn't like that and she made it very clear to me that, that I was her person.
• 26:18
  And don't, don't worry about that other little horse.
• 26:20
  You know, it's funny how they, when they, when they pick you, they really pick you.
• 26:24
  Yeah.
• 26:24
  Jealousy exists too.
• 26:27
  It's real.
• 26:29
  It's a real thing.
• 26:31
  So horse human parallels.
• 26:33
  What do you see reflected in the wild herd that mirrors what's missing or wounded in human communication today?
• 26:43
  Well spending time with the WildHorse herds, you see a strong, healthy, structured community with each individual showing up with purpose.
• 26:52
  And the structured community is key to their survival as well as passing on their genetics.
• 26:59
  So their unity is really what.
• 27:00
  Stands out to me.
• 27:01
  I mean, every horse in the herd knows its role, whether it's the lead mayor guiding the group or the stallion keeping watch.
• 27:08
  And while there is a hierarchy, it's more about purpose and each member contributes to the whole.
• 27:14
  And there's no posturing or ego-driven conflict.
• 27:18
  And to me, there seems to be this social erosion going on in human communities.
• 27:23
  I think that people seem to be disconnected from shared purpose and I mean, you see families are torn apart over things like.
• 27:32
  Vaccine status or whether they're red or blue.
• 27:36
  And then there's competition for status and material things.
• 27:40
  And I also think people are becoming more isolated by technology.
• 27:44
  And then there's this whole social media experiment going on, and it seems to have really perpetuated this lack of kindness, grace, and respect that we talked about earlier.
• 27:54
  And it's happening in ways that I think it's really getting outta hand.
• 27:58
  So.
• 27:59
  The herd reminds me how much we crave this sense of collective belonging, where everyone's strengths are valued without diminishing others.
• 28:08
  I mean, even separate family bands work together.
• 28:10
  Like often in the spring, you'll see the family bands gathering together and in close proximity to each other because that's when most of the fos are being born.
• 28:19
  And it's probably a way to protect their new fos because there's, you know, strength in numbers and they stay true to that.
• 28:26
  And that's how you survive is through cohesiveness.
• 28:29
  And this makes me think of Khanna and Macchiato.
• 28:33
  It's a story about trust and purpose and collective belonging.
• 28:38
  So, as I mentioned earlier, we have rewild about 65 branded BLM branded horses that unfortunately found their way into the killer the kill buyer pipeline.
• 28:49
  And we work with various advocates to rewild these guys.
• 28:53
  And there's these two geldings that really stand out to me.
• 28:57
  And their names are Khanna and Macchiato.
• 29:00
  And these two BLM branded geling are like the faces that never made it to the Facebook pleas for raising funds for bail.
• 29:10
  And probably because they're both these, these small plain brown horses.
• 29:15
  So they just were loaded directly onto the direct slaughter truck.
• 29:18
  So.
• 29:19
  But there's these savvy advocates that are out there, and they found out about these two guys, and they tracked that truck down and they, they bought them directly from the kill buyer.
• 29:31
  So these poor boys, they had been through the ringer, they had been abused, starved, and you name it.
• 29:37
  They had never been treated kindly by humans.
• 29:40
  And when they came out here, they still had their slaughter tags on their hind ends.
• 29:45
  So they hung out here for a while.
• 29:48
  And they're trying to figure out, you know, what their purpose, what their connection was gonna be to the other horses.
• 29:56
  And that consisted of one stallion, one marere.
• 30:00
  Oh, you cut.
• 30:02
  I need to go back.
• 30:02
  You cut out for just a minute.
• 30:04
  They hung out.
• 30:05
  Okay.
• 30:06
  From the truck.
• 30:07
  Okay.
• 30:08
  From the truck.
• 30:09
  Okay.
• 30:11
  They had their tags, they, they dis loaded and they had their tags and that's where you cut out.
• 30:15
  Oh, okay.
• 30:16
  Okay.
• 30:16
  So when they came out here, they still had their slaughter tags on their hind ends.
• 30:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:20
  And they kind of hung out here for a little while.
• 30:22
  They were trying to figure out what their purpose and what their connections would be made to the other horses.
• 30:27
  And they were ultimately welcomed into a family band that consisted of one stallion, one mare, and one full.
• 30:34
  And Khanna took on the role of the Fierce Protector, and then Macchiato took on the role of the nurturer.
• 30:41
  So Macchiato spent a lot of time with the full while Kahana, like he never left that mare's side.
• 30:48
  And it completely changed the dynamic of that family band because before the arrival of Kahana Macchiato, the mayor had zero confidence and, but she became really confident with her newfound herd mates and.
• 31:03
  Even after all that adversity that they endured, they came out here and they became very important members with a defined purpose that made that fin, that family dynamic even better.
• 31:14
  And it's also a lessons lesson in resiliency.
• 31:18
  And then another reflection is their emotional transparency.
• 31:25
  So, you know, wild horses, they don't hide fear.
• 31:29
  They don't hide joy, and they don't hide irritation.
• 31:33
  So it's all out there in their movements.
• 31:35
  It's in their breaths, it's in their eyes, and if a horse is wounded physically or even emotionally, their herd will adjust and offer space and protection and contrast.
• 31:47
  I would say human communities often stigmatize it as a vulnerability.
• 31:51
  And so we mask our wounds.
• 31:54
  We're afraid of judgment, and then that disconnection just festers.
• 31:58
  So I've watched a limping full be patiently guarded by its herd until it could keep up, and then it hit me.
• 32:05
  You know, we're missing that instinctive compassion to hold space for each other's healing without rushing or fixing.
• 32:13
  And then finally there's attunement and it's an attunement to the present.
• 32:20
  So wild horses, they live in the now and they're alert to the wind, the grass, the moment.
• 32:27
  And humans though, we're often in stuck replaying the past or worrying about the future.
• 32:33
  And, but we really struggle to live in the present, which I believe erodes our ability to connect deeply with each other.
• 32:40
  And the herd shows us what's wounded in us, our loss of presence, you know, of being fully present with each other.
• 32:48
  And I felt a pain for what we could reclaim, you know, as humans, a community rooted in shared presence, you know, mutual support and honest connection.
• 32:59
  Yeah.
• 33:01
  Yeah.
• 33:01
  That I, that is my experience too, that they have so much to teach us and it's so apparent.
• 33:10
  What's missing, and it doesn't seem like it's a hard, it's a, it doesn't seem like it's a complicated road back.
• 33:18
  Right.
• 33:19
  It's a, there's simple, there's some simple practices that can get us there.
• 33:23
  It's taking the time to practice and creating mm-hmm.
• 33:28
  The places to create the space to practice.
• 33:33
  And, and you know, what you're talking about are also the spiritual foundations I think of, of most religious tenets across the board.
• 33:42
  Like, that's what, that's what we're missing.
• 33:44
  You know?
• 33:45
  It doesn't, it's not, I'm not saying it's like a Christian thing.
• 33:48
  It it's a Hindu thing.
• 33:49
  It's a Buddhist thing.
• 33:50
  It's, it's, it's an Islam thing.
• 33:53
  It's a Jewish thing, right.
• 33:54
  It's across the board.
• 33:56
  Right.
• 33:57
  The spirituality of the horses is so plain and present that like, just like you said, I love that your observations are so parallel.
• 34:10
  So with the, the fire and the horses, the wisdom that they have when they came through your area and the herd had already grazed down the land, what went through your heart in realizing that they'd protected?
• 34:26
  The land and the home there.
• 34:30
  So, well, I wasn't here for that event, but I lived in Grass Valley.
• 34:34
  I lived in the grass, grass valley area back in 2020, and that's when the fires were all around that area.
• 34:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:42
  And I lived in constant fear because that area is choked with fuel.
• 34:46
  And what I mean by that.
• 34:48
  There's abundant, unmanaged grass and brush, and there's just so many dead trees.
• 34:53
  And I ultimately left that area because I couldn't live with that fear any longer.
• 34:58
  And that's when I came up here.
• 35:00
  And there's a stark difference between the level of fire fuels here versus where I moved from because it's well managed by the horses.
• 35:08
  So I could see it for myself.
• 35:10
  And the difference is profound.
• 35:12
  So I no longer live in fear during the fire season, and.
• 35:17
  These wild horses that I live alongside, they graze the land down to a patchwork of short grass, creating these natural fire breaks.
• 35:26
  And you know, it's not human orchestrated, it's just their natural rhythm.
• 35:31
  It's, you know, basically it's their ancient way of moving through the landscape.
• 35:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:35
  But the grazing creates these fire breaks.
• 35:38
  It's a buffer that slows the fire's hunger.
• 35:41
  And it protects not just my home, but the land itself and.
• 35:47
  The horses they aren't, they aren't just surviving here, they're shaping the land.
• 35:52
  They're holding it in balance.
• 35:53
  And before coming out here, I'd read about how grazing can reduce wildfire, but seeing it play out is another thing.
• 36:01
  You know, knowing their hoof prints had drawn a line and the fire that the fire couldn't cross, it's really hit me pretty hard.
• 36:07
  And, you know, they're whispering a truth that people are too busy to hear.
• 36:11
  They're not just part of the land, they're, it's caretakers.
• 36:15
  And it's this wisdom, this ex distinctive knowledge that humans often overlook or try to control.
• 36:21
  And, and I feel this pang of sorrow'cause because I'm inspired by this herd every day.
• 36:28
  And I asked myself, how often do we push these animals out?
• 36:32
  You know, we round them up, we call'em a nuisance when they're quietly saving us and the herd doesn't need my thanks, but I feel it in every fiber.
• 36:40
  You know, they've given me a gift and not just a gift of safety, but a gift of understanding.
• 36:46
  I mean, their presence.
• 36:48
  Their grazing and their way of being.
• 36:50
  It's a partnership with the earth that we've forgotten how to honor and the remnants of what that fire left behind that fire's showing me what's possible when we let their wisdom lead.
• 37:02
  Yeah, a absolutely.
• 37:03
  I know what you're saying is a hundred percent true and right.
• 37:06
  I.
• 37:07
  I was on 200 acres for 10 years.
• 37:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:10
  At least in the summertime.
• 37:11
  And, and for several years, all year round.
• 37:14
  And I had cattle and I had horses, and I had goats.
• 37:17
  And they all worked in unison to manage that land.
• 37:21
  Like I didn't feed them, I didn't do anything.
• 37:24
  They saved the tall grass where there was, you know, underground.
• 37:29
  Sub irrigation where the grass stayed green through August and September.
• 37:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:33
  They saved that grass for August and September.
• 37:36
  They, you know, used the deer trails.
• 37:39
  They did not erde.
• 37:40
  Yep.
• 37:41
  They did.
• 37:42
  You know, they, I'd had cattle leased there before who tried to drink from the berm of the pond and eroded it away.
• 37:50
  But these animals didn't do that.
• 37:51
  They were respectful.
• 37:52
  They drank from the, from the sides, not from the front of it, where that would.
• 37:56
  Cause damage.
• 37:58
  They know like Right.
• 37:59
  I have never, ever in all of my hiking and roaming around that ranch seen a deer trail, wash out Animals know what they're doing.
• 38:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:08
  They're micro, there were micro climates on that land.
• 38:10
  In fact, they showed me sometimes it'd be really, really cold and they would take me to a spot that was 15 to 20 degrees warmer.
• 38:19
  In a little hollow Wow.
• 38:20
  Just so where the wind came, they know.
• 38:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:22
  Like, yeah.
• 38:24
  The amount of wisdom and knowing that exists in the natural world would just blow the minds of most humans.
• 38:29
  Like they can't even comprehend it.
• 38:31
  Yeah.
• 38:31
  We think we're superior.
• 38:33
  Yeah.
• 38:33
  We absolutely right.
• 38:34
  Are not right.
• 38:36
  I agree.
• 38:37
  Yep.
• 38:40
  The cost of losing them.
• 38:41
  How do you imagine the emotional and ecological landscape would change if we lost wild mustangs altogether?
• 38:48
  And I, I asked this question in kind of a similar form to William and.
• 38:55
  He came in.
• 38:56
  I just wanna like remind the audience in case they miss that podcast, that with the sterilization that's happening with the management and rounds up roundups and genetic bottlenecking that are happening, the extinction is eminent at this point unless something changes.
• 39:12
  Yep.
• 39:13
  Absolutely.
• 39:13
  I mean, it's a very pertinent question and you know, the thought of losing the wild mustangs altogether, you know, it feels like imagining a world without a heartbeat.
• 39:24
  I mean, emotionally, it would definitely leave a void.
• 39:28
  It would be a silence where they're thundering hooves or their fierce spirit and their quiet wisdom once spoke to us.
• 39:34
  And for those of us that have felt they're GAed or stood among their hurts, they carry this raw, untamed essence that reminds us of freedom.
• 39:44
  And resilience and connection to something bigger.
• 39:47
  And I believe without them, we would lose a mirror to our own wildness and a living link to our history and the land's history.
• 39:56
  And I think the grief by anyone who's been touched by their presence.
• 40:00
  It would be losing a family member or a mentor or a favorite pet or even a piece of our soul.
• 40:07
  And I believe that absence would haunt us.
• 40:10
  Leaving us lonelier in a world already starved for authentic connection and then ecologically the loss would be catastrophic.
• 40:20
  Mustangs are keystone, herbivores.
• 40:23
  I, they shape the land in ways that people are only beginning to understand.
• 40:27
  You know, their grazing reduces the wildfire fuel.
• 40:30
  And as I see it here, they create these natural fire breaks that protect entire ecosystems.
• 40:36
  And their hooves aerate the soil and their movement scatters the seeds to their tongue and their presence balances the predator prey dynamics.
• 40:45
  And then they're also immunes from chronic wasting disease.
• 40:48
  So they actually clean up the vector as they graze.
• 40:51
  So without them, you know, we would see an overgrown grasslands and forests turn into tender.
• 40:58
  We would see more intense wildfires and more often and then, you know, there would be degraded habitats and the continued spread of chronic wasting disease.
• 41:07
  Studies like the ones that we are doing here show that their grazing can cut catastrophic wildfire while reseeding the landscape, which is beneficial for the surrounding flora and fauna.
• 41:18
  So if you lose that.
• 41:20
  And you're not just losing horses, you're losing forests, you're losing wildlife you're losing the land's ability to regenerate.
• 41:28
  And the riff, ripple effect would hit everything from the soil microbiome to the elk, you know, to the rivers that depend on the healthy watersheds.
• 41:37
  So.
• 41:38
  In a more poetic sense and going beyond the data.
• 41:42
  I would say it's the emptiness of a sagebrush plane without their silhouettes at John, the way the wind would carry no echo of their calls, we would feel it in our bones.
• 41:54
  It would be a world that's alive.
• 41:56
  Less whole and the Mustangs teach us that their emotional and the ecological, or they're intertwined, and to lose them, we lose a piece of the Earth's pulse and our own capacity to belong to it.
• 42:10
  Wow.
• 42:11
  That is so beautifully said, read, written.
• 42:14
  That's amazing.
• 42:16
  Yeah.
• 42:17
  Communicating to the public.
• 42:19
  Many people have never truly felt a wild horse's presence.
• 42:23
  What do you wish they could experience even for five minutes that might open their hearts to protect so that we would do more to protect?
• 42:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:33
  These animals, right?
• 42:35
  Great question.
• 42:36
  Yeah, I wish people could feel that electric mix of awe and humility.
• 42:41
  You know, the way a WildHorse is presence, strips away the noise and reminds you what it means to be connected and not just to them, but to the earth itself.
• 42:51
  And it's not just their beauty.
• 42:53
  It's their resilience.
• 42:54
  It's their untamed spirit, you know, and they survived millions of years of hardship.
• 43:00
  And if people felt that for even five minutes, I believe their hearts would crack open.
• 43:05
  They'd understand why we can't lose these living legends.
• 43:09
  We can't let'em vanish.
• 43:11
  And you know why protecting them is about saving a piece of our own wildness our own capacity for wonder, and that feeling that fleeting connection could spark a fire to fight for their place on this earth and on this land.
• 43:26
  And I actually wanna share a little story about a rescued fool and a nonverbal little girl.
• 43:34
  Last summer we got a call about this really thin mare and she had this little baby by her side.
• 43:41
  So we went out and we found her and she was in pretty bad shape and she was nursing this young fo who was also in bad shape.
• 43:50
  And she was a young mare.
• 43:51
  And all the other horses that were in the area had really great body scores, so we couldn't figure out like what happened to her.
• 43:58
  But we put it together a plan to trap her.
• 44:00
  And the baby and try to get'em to the sanctuary as soon as possible.
• 44:05
  But you know, wild horses have ideas of their own.
• 44:08
  So it took us two weeks to get her and we went out every other day looking for her, bringing her food and bringing her water and we noticed.
• 44:20
  The last five, seven, or five days before we were able to get her, that we didn't see her full with her.
• 44:26
  So we assumed that the FO had died.
• 44:29
  So after two weeks, we finally, we were finally able to get her, because what had happened was, is she got used to seeing me bringing her food and water.
• 44:39
  So when I would come out, she would actually started coming up to me.
• 44:43
  And so my, the people that were helping us build the corral around me and this mare while she was eating and we were able to get her into the trailer and get her to the sanctuary, and it was one of those long days we actually didn't get home till like 2:00 AM.
• 45:00
  And then we got a call the next morning.
• 45:02
  Somebody had stopped, had spotted the full, and we were, we were shocked.
• 45:07
  We were like, you've gotta be kidding me.
• 45:09
  So we went out and sure enough, there was this little poor, little, little horsey little girl.
• 45:16
  And, she was emaciated and all of her bony prominences were all like the fur was gone.
• 45:23
  I mean, she, the poor little girl was in really bad shape.
• 45:26
  And the sanctuary couldn't take her because they didn't have the resources for a bottle baby.
• 45:32
  'cause she was still a bottle baby.
• 45:34
  So we actually took her to a friend of ours who took her in and she basically brought her back from the brink of death.
• 45:42
  But you know, it was, it was a lot.
• 45:45
  And she was telling us how when the, they, she actually named her Reba and when Reba would sleep, she would cry.
• 45:54
  And, you know, she had been through so much.
• 45:58
  But through her recovery, she was introduced to a little human girl that was nonverbal, and when the two of them got together, it was like pure magic.
• 46:09
  So it was two little girls that were yelling each other, and we actually have some videos on our YouTube channel about this story that was very touching.
• 46:17
  This has been.
• 46:19
  Just amazing listening to you and the thought that you've put into answering all these questions and your experiences and being able to share them the way you have.
• 46:27
  I have one more question here.
• 46:29
  Okay.
• 46:29
  The quiet revolution.
• 46:31
  In your view, how does relearning to relate to wild horses through sensitivity, presence, and mutual respect reflect a broader revolution happening in human consciousness?
• 46:46
  I would say relating to wild horses through sensitivity, presence, and mutual respect feels like it's like a quiet revolution.
• 46:57
  It's a subtle but seismic shift in how we see ourselves in the world.
• 47:02
  When you stand with a wild horse.
• 47:04
  You can't just command or control.
• 47:07
  You have to listen, and you have to feel, and you have to meet them on their terms.
• 47:12
  So that act of slowing down and tuning into their energy and letting go of ego mirrors a broader awakening in human consciousness, one where we're just rediscovering how to coexist rather than to dominate.
• 47:29
  And this revolution is about remembering what we've lost in our rush to modernize and the ability to be present, to honor the intelligence of other beings and to see ourselves as part of a living web and not above it wild horse with their raw authenticity.
• 47:48
  And deep rooted connection to the land.
• 47:51
  They're like our guides and they're pulling us back to that truth.
• 47:55
  And I've seen it in moments when a visitor softens in the presence of the herd.
• 47:59
  Their shoulders drop as they realize there's a dialogue happening, but without words.
• 48:05
  And that's the shift.
• 48:07
  Moving from extraction and control to reciprocity and respect and, you know.
• 48:14
  It's happening beyond horses too.
• 48:16
  I mean, you see it in people fighting for true indigenous wisdom or in rewilding landscapes or seeking mindfulness to heal fractured communities.
• 48:26
  So relating to Mustangs, this is just like a microcosm of that.
• 48:32
  It's, it's, you know, we're learning to value what's wild and not just in them, but also in ourselves.
• 48:38
  And it's a revolution, but it's a quiet revolution.
• 48:41
  So it doesn't shout out from the headlines, but it grows in the hearts that feel the pulse of the herd and they realize, they realize that we're all part of the same story.
• 48:52
  And if we can learn to walk beside wild horses with humility, we might just learn to walk beside each other and the earth in the same way.
• 49:01
  Oh, you are an incredible wordsmith.
• 49:04
  Yes.
• 49:04
  That like, yes, I, I 100% agree.
• 49:10
  And you know, you've really voiced what I started this podcast for.
• 49:15
  Oh, really?
• 49:16
  Like the, that the whole reason for the podcast was the quiet revolution in the horse world.
• 49:21
  The movement away from absolute dominance and, okay.
• 49:26
  The, my other business is called In Rewilding Together and it's retreats.
• 49:31
  Okay.
• 49:31
  That teach the things that we both talked about today and that you've so beautifully, elaborated on, that we're missing i'm so grateful that.
• 49:40
  There's some sort of like tapping into this collective consciousness that we both, right.
• 49:45
  You know, have these elements of the same thing happening and knowing like the seeing, knowing and, and feeling a really important higher truth.
• 49:56
  That's what happened here today.
• 49:59
  So much gratitude, Michelle.
• 50:01
  So much.
• 50:02
  Well, thank you so much.
• 50:03
  I really appreciate you letting me come on.
• 50:05
  And, and you know,'cause I usually usually William is the one doing all the podcasting and I'm not, because it takes me time to like really think about, what it is I wanna say and, you know, the message that I wanna get across to people.
• 50:18
  Well, this has come across very clear to me hopefully to the listeners.
• 50:21
  I've been a little remiss about asking people to hit the follow button, subscribe to the channel.
• 50:26
  Like all of that feels like, yeah, yeah.
• 50:29
  So commercial, but those things are important to spread this word.
• 50:33
  I'm feeling less shy about it now that I feel like I have more purpose in this winters.
• 50:38
  Series that I'm doing this winter is going to be all about Mustangs, and on our website now we have a Mustang trip planned.
• 50:45
  We're leaving from Bishop California and mm-hmm.
• 50:49
  We're gonna be going into Nevada.
• 50:50
  For a four day pack trip on string horses to visit with the mustangs and practice some of the things that we teach in our retreats as far as how we connect with each other how we connect with somatic movement and mindfulness.
• 51:04
  And mindfulness in the saddle.
• 51:06
  So all of those things are, are coming up and then there's a refiling, remembering the whispers of.
• 51:14
  Reconnecting with our intuition and clairvoyance.
• 51:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:17
  And that will be in May.
• 51:19
  The Mustang trip is in June, and all of that's on our website.
• 51:23
  So like you've been a perfect commercial unintentionally for the things that we have going on, and I love it.
• 51:30
  I just love it.
• 51:32
  Right, right.
• 51:33
  Well, yeah, and we are you know, come check us out.
• 51:36
  We're WildHorse Fire Brigade.
• 51:38
  We're on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and I think a couple others.
• 51:44
  And then our website is WildHorse fire brigade.org.
• 51:47
  And you can check us out there too.
• 51:49
  We have a documentary going through the, film festivals and it's called Course of Nature and we've already won some awards, so we're pretty excited about it.
• 51:58
  We want to get it to where everyone can watch it because it's the story of the fire that moved through Hornbrook and how it impacted the community and basically what the horse's role was in helping Cal Fire stop that fire.
• 52:15
  And it also talks about our relationship with those horses.
• 52:18
  So it's a really beautiful little story.
• 52:21
  And from what I understand, William was a huge you know, instrument in fighting that fire too, and helping the firefighters.
• 52:28
  Yeah.
• 52:28
  Lots of stuff and people can donate to your, cause you are a 5 0 5 0 1, Auto oh one C3.
• 52:34
  Yep.
• 52:34
  So if people feel moved to help, there's a place to donate on your website as well.
• 52:40
  Great.
• 52:41
  Thank you.
• 52:41
  Thank you.
• 52:42
  And all that'll be in the show notes.
• 52:44
  Wow.
• 52:46
  Thank you again for being on the show, Michelle.
• 52:49
  Thank you for having me.
• 52:49
  I really enjoyed this.
• 52:50
  I enjoyed this whole process of you know, really reflecting and, you know, thinking about, you know, what do these questions mean and, you know, what do I really want to communicate with people?
• 53:01
  And it was really, it was quite a good journey for me to do that.
• 53:04
  So I really thank you for inviting me.
• 53:07
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 53:08
  Absolutely.