Latest / Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast / Episode 115: What WOULD Have Turned Obi-Wan to the Dark Side in the Clone Wars Mortis Arc?

Transcript

Episode 115: What WOULD Have Turned Obi-Wan to the Dark Side in the Clone Wars Mortis Arc? · Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello there, it's time for most things Kenobi.
• 0:05
  I prefer all things Kenobi, but I suppose that's not the Jedi
• 0:08
  way, as long as it's not all things Anakin.
• 0:24
  Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of
• 0:26
  Most Things Kenobi, a podcast about Obi Wan Kenobi and all
• 0:29
  things Star Wars. I'm your host, Lauren.
• 0:32
  And I'm your host Leanne. And this week I feel.
• 0:38
  Like it deserves the dark, yeah. Oh my God, we're the worst.
• 0:48
  We are. And I love it.
• 0:54
  We are going to talk about what would turn.
• 0:57
  Obi went to the dark side on Mortis.
• 1:00
  Specifically this week, yes, because Mortis was probably the
• 1:05
  closest chance, right? He had the most the most
• 1:08
  chances. Yeah, I mean, if there's ever
• 1:12
  going to be a time where we see him like, lose any kind of
• 1:16
  control besides. And again, on Mustafar, this
• 1:20
  would be it. Like, there's no we've talked
• 1:23
  about it so many times that he's just the he's too perfect, he's
• 1:27
  never going to be tempted. So it would have to be some
• 1:29
  weird like mind bending or drugged or something like
• 1:37
  circumstance where he's not in control.
• 1:41
  Yeah. And Mortis is the best, you
• 1:44
  know, example of that. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of
• 1:46
  trickery. A deceit that goes on in Mortis.
• 1:50
  And I can see very easily him being, well, OK, so he's a
• 1:54
  shrewd man. He's not easily led into a trap,
• 1:59
  but it's a trap, right? But sorry, but I could see him
• 2:06
  being kind of guided in a direction of of misdirection and
• 2:11
  then being like, haha, we got you, you know, like the brother.
• 2:15
  This is a terrible retelling of a.
• 2:17
  Really crummy old horror fic synopsis.
• 2:22
  I feel like like I'm retelling an 80s horror film or something,
• 2:26
  but you know what I mean? Like there's there's the
• 2:29
  potential there for him to be tricked because.
• 2:32
  Like it hears a baby crying in the distance.
• 2:34
  Yeah, and it's just a figment of his imagination.
• 2:37
  And really, it's like surprise, It's it's just mortis.
• 2:42
  Yes, exactly so. Essentially we're setting the
• 2:45
  stage for a really bad 80s horror flick.
• 2:48
  I'm here for it. Let's do it.
• 2:50
  Yeah, I mean, it's the poltergeist of Mortis I.
• 2:54
  Was gonna say maybe we could get Stephen King to write it, yes.
• 2:58
  Oh my God, so good. So like what circumstance would
• 3:06
  you think it's even possible? Like would it be like?
• 3:10
  I don't know. Cuz Anakin and Osoka had
• 3:12
  different experiences. Like when they were turned, they
• 3:16
  did, right? Yes.
• 3:19
  And we didn't actually see Anakin turn.
• 3:23
  I mean, we see him experience the turmoil, but Asoka, we
• 3:27
  actually see the change in her face.
• 3:30
  Well, it got me thinking why Asoka and not Obi Wan?
• 3:35
  Because Obi Wan's too obviously good.
• 3:39
  But yeah. If they're trying to play
• 3:43
  Anakin, right, this whole thing of mortis is just one big test
• 3:48
  for basically for Anakin, right? I mean he he passes the
• 3:53
  essential test of you know, controlling the son and
• 3:58
  daughter, you know and he doesn't have to choose Remember
• 4:03
  the the the choose. Don't choose me, Choose a soca
• 4:06
  you know. That Obi Wan offers up.
• 4:08
  I mean right there he just, he just dropped the mic for anyone
• 4:10
  trying to, you know, like turn him essentially.
• 4:13
  Yes, totally selfless in every way possible.
• 4:18
  But my question is, Anna can had just as much bond with Obi Wan,
• 4:23
  if not more, for a longer period of time than he did at Asoka.
• 4:26
  So why didn't they also choose to have Obi Wan go through some
• 4:32
  sort of negative transformation? Yeah, because imagine what that
• 4:36
  would do to Anakin if he saw Obi Wan turn.
• 4:39
  Right. Well, I mean, aren't you writing
• 4:40
  it right now? Kind of.
• 4:44
  Maybe I should be asking you, but I just think, I just think
• 4:49
  maybe so you know the visions in The Cave that that the Obi Wan
• 4:55
  and Asoka have. Yes.
• 4:57
  Obi Wan's involves Quigon, right?
• 5:01
  So yes, would his turning. Be somehow involved with Quigon
• 5:07
  because that's a very emotionally raw piece of him.
• 5:12
  Yeah. Well, so this at this time mall
• 5:15
  has not come back yet, right? Right, because this is season 3,
• 5:19
  correct? Yes, yeah.
• 5:21
  So I think what comes back at the end of season four, so as of
• 5:24
  right now where more where Mortis is, Quigon has just been
• 5:29
  murdered by a Sith. Yeah, and Obi Wan killed.
• 5:33
  Took care of it the. Bad guy?
• 5:34
  Yeah. Little did he know, they were
• 5:38
  about to undermine everything. Yes, as Star Wars often does.
• 5:43
  He always does at this point, but.
• 5:47
  Well it's that scene with Qui Gon is always very interesting
• 5:52
  because it's not like a socas cuz a soca gets like a warning.
• 5:57
  Yeah, yeah. Her vision tells her to be
• 6:01
  careful about trusting Anakin. He's leading her astray.
• 6:05
  Where right it's it was surprisingly apt.
• 6:10
  Yeah, considering. But also she is as good as she
• 6:14
  is because of Anakin, so it's kind of an interesting blend
• 6:18
  there. Kwagon spends his time basically
• 6:22
  asking him asking Obiwan, did you do what I asked you?
• 6:26
  Did you train Anakin? And Obiwan says that he's tried,
• 6:30
  but balance often eludes Anakin. He's done his best, but he's
• 6:35
  kind of like, maybe my best is not going to be enough, you
• 6:39
  know? Why didn't they use that time?
• 6:43
  To even to show how good Obiwan is by having Qui gone, challenge
• 6:48
  him more in that moment. That's kind of what I want to
• 6:53
  play with in at least a little bit is you could get, we'll say
• 6:59
  hypothetically, you could hypothetically get Obiwan
• 7:03
  rolling on a like a depressive mental state based on not being
• 7:10
  good enough. He wasn't good enough.
• 7:12
  To control Anakin, he failed his own master by not being able to
• 7:16
  save him, etcetera. You know that list gets much
• 7:19
  longer as the seasons go on, you know, with Satine and
• 7:23
  everything, but he never turns. That's why we love it, Obiwan.
• 7:26
  But like you could, you could really if if Mortis is as strong
• 7:32
  and crazy as it is, it could easily help him fall into a
• 7:37
  chasm of like depression over that stuff.
• 7:40
  Yeah, for sure. Especially like having to stand
• 7:44
  behind that barrier and watch Qui gon helplessly, you know?
• 7:50
  Totally. And mall even goads him about it
• 7:54
  later saying you stood by helpless.
• 7:56
  Yeah. Nothing you could do and I
• 7:58
  actually think that's a pretty painful jab for him from mall.
• 8:04
  So I mean the the brother could have easily.
• 8:08
  Played and like, We don't know, right?
• 8:10
  We don't know if the visions are actually coming from any of the
• 8:13
  gods. We don't.
• 8:14
  Call it on Mortis. Yeah, we don't know anything.
• 8:16
  We don't know if it's from the self or from external or.
• 8:21
  Because the O B1 tells Anakin the planet is the Force, so it
• 8:25
  could just be coming from their environment.
• 8:28
  But Anakin's vision is the brother, so that is.
• 8:33
  Very specifically, he's being manipulated there.
• 8:36
  Well, I do find it interesting that they're in a cave.
• 8:39
  Asoka and Obi Wan are in a cave. And we know the symbolism of
• 8:41
  caves, right? Going into the self, going into
• 8:44
  the inner of ourselves and going deeper with it.
• 8:49
  Transformation and coming out changed.
• 8:52
  Yeah, totally. I can totally see how it could
• 8:55
  be manipulation of maybe some guilt that they have.
• 8:59
  Or something to that effect. You know, questions that they
• 9:01
  asked themselves, Obi Wan's could be, did I fail?
• 9:04
  Did I not do enough? Am I not doing enough?
• 9:07
  I guess in in kind of the present tense at the time and
• 9:09
  Asoka being like, you know, I put so much trust in this one
• 9:13
  person maybe I shouldn't there are questions there, etcetera.
• 9:17
  But Anakin is in like the castle, right?
• 9:21
  The tuning fork for the Force. So that has to be a reason why.
• 9:27
  His is. His is also guilt ridden too,
• 9:29
  because it's his mother. And the whole thing with Anakin
• 9:33
  is all about guilt. Guilt is his like, thread that
• 9:40
  weaves into every part of him the guilt he feels about Padme,
• 9:44
  the guilt he feels about his mother, The guilt, guilt, guilt,
• 9:47
  Guilt. Yeah, so anger too.
• 9:51
  I'm not going to discount that, but guilt is a big thing.
• 9:55
  He wallows. Obi Wan, He touches and goes.
• 9:59
  Yes. If they were able, if if on
• 10:01
  Mortis, they could get him to a wallow.
• 10:05
  Which of all places like that could be the place, right?
• 10:09
  So like the thing that I I liked about Asoka is that basically
• 10:14
  they took one little piece of her guilts and it it like.
• 10:20
  For her doubt, I'll say her doubt in like being able to
• 10:24
  trust Anakin and that was enough to basically twist her
• 10:29
  completely out of form and become this whole other being.
• 10:33
  Granted, I think she was like possessed by the brother a bit.
• 10:36
  So with Obi Wan, basically he is not.
• 10:41
  Supernatural being, like he has guilt.
• 10:45
  And even in our interview with James, he said that he thinks
• 10:48
  there's a lot under the surface that the character just kind of
• 10:52
  will not allow up because it's too much, you know, he just has
• 10:57
  to be the good Jedi. But on Mortis, like the planet
• 11:01
  could manipulate you. It's kind of like what I'm
• 11:05
  reading in this wild space, but. Yeah, yeah.
• 11:10
  You should read it. We need to We could totally do
• 11:12
  an episode. Yes, it's fucking nuts.
• 11:15
  But like, it's like this outside thing is basically a poisoning
• 11:22
  Obiwan's mind and he's acting out of character, you know?
• 11:25
  And like, Mortis would be the perfect place to actually show
• 11:29
  something like that. I think that Mortis would have
• 11:34
  the ability to really play on that, I don't see.
• 11:38
  He could, they could have taken anything of his and played on it
• 11:40
  or just, you know, took one little piece and really, like,
• 11:44
  magnified it 10 times. Yeah.
• 11:47
  But here's, here's my question, my question to you, you
• 11:51
  mentioned Obi Wan. Well, actually James Arnold
• 11:54
  Taylor mentions that Obi Wan keeps a lot under the surface.
• 11:57
  That's not necessarily healthy. Do you think that's really
• 12:00
  healthy? I mean, it kept him on the
• 12:01
  straight and narrow, but we're not really supposed to, like,
• 12:05
  keep our feelings and our emotions.
• 12:08
  Buried. We're supposed to feel them in a
• 12:10
  very way where we don't explode with them, Anakin, but we deal
• 12:19
  with them, we acknowledge them, we move through them, and we
• 12:22
  move them beyond them. Correct.
• 12:25
  So was oh, we want even being that healthy Mortis would have
• 12:28
  been the place to let it out. Yeah, man, I would have liked to
• 12:33
  see that. That's.
• 12:34
  What I'm saying? Yeah, I don't think it's the
• 12:39
  terribly healthy thing. I guess the Jedi they try to
• 12:42
  imply that they get around that by releasing their feelings into
• 12:47
  the Force. Well, that must be nice, the
• 12:49
  rest of us. Whatever the fuck that means.
• 12:51
  The rest of us have to go to therapy.
• 12:53
  Yeah, exactly. Maybe that's what it means,
• 12:56
  Releasing to the forces talking to a therapy.
• 12:59
  Yeah, it's just down the hall in the temple to the right, 2 doors
• 13:02
  down. That's the therapy room.
• 13:05
  Exactly. I mean if and if you want to go
• 13:09
  buy Jedi apprentice stuff, which I know is not Canon, but we have
• 13:14
  no back story for everyone's childhood, except now that the
• 13:18
  Kenobi series said that he has a brother maybe, and that he kind
• 13:23
  of remembers his mother and father just a teeny bit.
• 13:26
  But like Jedi apprentice, like he wasn't wanted by Quikan and
• 13:30
  he carried a lot of guilt about that.
• 13:32
  He had something happen at Melita Dan or whatever that.
• 13:36
  Planet is called where he like left.
• 13:38
  The Jedi ordered like chose to leave to help a group of
• 13:42
  teenagers try and fight oppression and a lot of them
• 13:45
  died in front of him. It was crazy.
• 13:48
  There was a lot of crazy shit that happened in those books.
• 13:51
  I know I'm not translating well over the microphone because I'm
• 13:54
  just sitting here with a strange look on my face.
• 13:58
  Like what? I know it's very sounds so
• 14:03
  dramatic. Yeah.
• 14:04
  Or melodramatic, yes. Yeah, like a soap opera.
• 14:09
  But yeah, I mean, he has a lot. And then like to watch your
• 14:12
  master die. And we've talked about in the
• 14:14
  past how he was working very hard to try to please Qui Gon
• 14:19
  and that when he finally kind of is getting there.
• 14:24
  If you take these Jedi Apprentice novels into
• 14:27
  consideration, I'm not saying this is Canon, but.
• 14:30
  By the time he then like gets Qui Gon's approval, so to speak,
• 14:35
  Qui Gon just dumps him for Anakin and then dies right away.
• 14:39
  So. What if that's what happens on
• 14:41
  Mortis? Because what I was thinking this
• 14:43
  whole time is who is Obi Wan going to project to?
• 14:47
  Anakin hasn't done anything to him yet and Asoka certainly
• 14:50
  hasn't, so he can't yell into the void about Qui Gon and Mall.
• 14:54
  So it would have to be turned on to Anakin at some point, right?
• 14:57
  Or or Asoka, which is. It's so out there.
• 14:59
  She's a child. She's what has she done?
• 15:02
  He has much more back story with Annika.
• 15:04
  So maybe, maybe if he turned dark on Mortis, he could do that
• 15:09
  external like projection thing like Anakin does and Asoka does.
• 15:13
  She taunts Anakin. He could do it by saying like
• 15:17
  you came in and stole my master away from me.
• 15:20
  What have you. What have you shown me?
• 15:22
  No thanks at all. So I think that's the kind of
• 15:25
  dialogue that would happen if he did turn because.
• 15:29
  They do tend to have these these dark, these dark sided, you
• 15:33
  know, Asoka and Anakin, they turn to the dark side in these
• 15:36
  episodes and they project outwards.
• 15:39
  Yeah. Now Asoka's is down, right?
• 15:43
  Ghostly. Like it's kind of.
• 15:46
  Yeah, it's spooky. Very spooky.
• 15:49
  And Anakin is just, there's that suppressed rage that's simmering
• 15:52
  beneath the surface that's always been there, you know, and
• 15:54
  he's just kind of like cocky and.
• 15:57
  Power this and power that. But it's it's also kind of like
• 16:01
  really extreme and twisted, right?
• 16:03
  So like with what we see with Anakin and Asoka's, they like,
• 16:09
  there's a grain of truth maybe to what starts the process, but
• 16:13
  then stuff gets really twisted and manipulated so that you
• 16:18
  don't even know if that's going to happen.
• 16:20
  You know, like, but it's enough to mess with their minds because
• 16:23
  they're under this influence. And that's why, like, this is
• 16:27
  the only realistic place that could happen to Obi Wan, yeah?
• 16:30
  Everything's exaggerated. So you would have to exaggerate
• 16:34
  a something from Obi Wan, which is the only way you could get it
• 16:37
  is by exaggerating whatever he feels, because he's never going
• 16:40
  to do it. When I love that scene in
• 16:43
  Phantom Menace where they're at the council and Qui Gon says,
• 16:46
  well, I'll take Anakin as my pad one and they cut to Obi Wan's
• 16:50
  look and he's just like. The fuck he?
• 16:52
  Gives him this like, it's like, yeah.
• 16:55
  It's like, say what consultant I did not consent to this
• 16:59
  agreement. Yeah.
• 17:01
  And it's like a little bit of shock and a little bit of anger.
• 17:04
  It's like you could just take that grain of truth and twist it
• 17:08
  way out there and. He could actually say on mortis
• 17:14
  Anakin, what did you do to twist him to take your side and
• 17:18
  literally pin the guilt on Anakin which at this point.
• 17:22
  That could be exaggerated into a giant disaster.
• 17:26
  I love it. It's so good, Gaza.
• 17:31
  Such a missed, a missed opportunity.
• 17:34
  It goes back and maybe I want to ask everyone out there who's
• 17:36
  listening. I'm just nominating this is the
• 17:39
  question. Because I want to know why
• 17:43
  didn't they choose Obi Wan to have a dark moment?
• 17:47
  Why did they kind of leave him off to the side?
• 17:49
  He went and got the knife, or the sword, or whatever it is
• 17:51
  and. Did the whole thing like easy,
• 17:53
  just too good? Would it not been believable?
• 17:56
  Well, I have a theory on this. We're saying it's believable.
• 18:00
  I mean it could have been. It was the only time it could
• 18:03
  have truly worked. But I the reason I think they
• 18:06
  didn't is because Mortis is the force.
• 18:10
  So Mortis is a reflection of your true self.
• 18:14
  So because your true nature comes out in Mortis.
• 18:19
  Anakin's true darkness comes out.
• 18:31
  In fact, he's downright annoyed with the sister and the brother.
• 18:21
  Asoka's kind of middle ground comes out and over when it has
• 18:27
  like no temptation whatsoever because it's just not possible.
• 18:36
  He gets really fed up, yeah. So he's fed up with the force.
• 18:41
  He's fed up with the bickering. He doesn't want anyone to
• 18:43
  bicker. God damn it.
• 18:44
  He's always. Yeah, the mediator, the uncle,
• 18:47
  the the grandpa, the the stepdad, or just the plain dad.
• 18:52
  He's in dad mode at all times with Anakin and Soak, I guess.
• 18:55
  Even on Mortis. It's true.
• 18:58
  He's always the levelheaded one, the one that has never, never
• 19:03
  having no doubt or difficulty. He doesn't even get a nap on
• 19:08
  Mortis the fuck. He doesn't nap until the Kenobi
• 19:12
  series. Even then, it's interrupted.
• 19:15
  It's true with nightmares. So people always point out to
• 19:21
  me, and you've probably noticed this.
• 19:24
  Have you noticed that when Anakin touches the sister she
• 19:27
  like rears back and is like you cannot touch me but Obiwan
• 19:32
  touches her multiple times? It would probably feel like
• 19:36
  dirty or a sting if Anakin like because you know he's got too
• 19:41
  much of it in him. That should have been assigned
• 19:43
  only one right there. Something right with this kid.
• 19:46
  Right. Like the very fact that his true
• 19:49
  nature makes the sister uncomfortable is pretty
• 19:53
  interesting. I.
• 19:54
  And she has such a visceral reaction to it.
• 19:56
  It's not even like, please don't do that.
• 19:57
  It's like, don't fucking get your hands off me, you know?
• 20:00
  Yeah, she's. Angry, angry.
• 20:03
  And if you take the peaceful side of the force which she is
• 20:06
  and and makes her like have that kind of reaction.
• 20:11
  Red flag. Let's not touch Anakin anymore,
• 20:15
  shall we? No, let's save for off Mortis.
• 20:20
  Well, I mean, if we're on Mortis, you still have all we
• 20:23
  want. You're not losing anyway.
• 20:26
  This is good benefits for everyone, no matter where you
• 20:32
  are. I have another question to ask
• 20:34
  you in the general, the general public out there, what so we
• 20:38
  know? That Anakin turns, turns back.
• 20:41
  Asoka turns. She turns back through a lengthy
• 20:44
  process. How would Obiwan come out of it?
• 20:50
  Oh man, it would depend on how he goes into it.
• 20:53
  That's. What I'm thinking So the father
• 20:56
  basically had to rescue both of them and the reason he saved
• 21:01
  Osoka was dead. She was fucking dead.
• 21:05
  She was straight up dead. What the fuck?
• 21:10
  And her, the sister or the daughter's life force is what
• 21:14
  brought Asoka back to life. But the father had to be the
• 21:17
  conduit using Anakin somehow. So creepy.
• 21:21
  It's so weird, which is. It's also like, does Asoka have
• 21:25
  some of Anakin in her? None too, since he was the
• 21:28
  conduit in the middle. It does make me wonder, OK, so
• 21:32
  like Anakin supposed to be the balance, right?
• 21:34
  Bring balance and and while he's on the planet he's brought
• 21:37
  balance like. At least once in the fight, the
• 21:40
  fight between, you know, the the daughter and the son, but
• 21:46
  through the father, does he also bring balance back by bringing a
• 21:50
  soca back in a way that she goes on to make it to the end, as we
• 21:55
  know and does so much good throughout her entire lifespan
• 22:00
  that it would not have been possible had Anna can not been
• 22:03
  there and the mortis thing had not happened and the sister was
• 22:06
  not involved. So all these different force.
• 22:09
  Entities, these people strong, like the strongest in the force
• 22:12
  had to bring her back and I think it was a good thing that
• 22:16
  she was brought back because of all the goodness that comes of
• 22:19
  her bring being brought back. So I wonder if like that whole
• 22:24
  thing is part of, dare I say, the prophecy, which you know,
• 22:29
  cause it's never, yeah, just like one thing, it's some a
• 22:34
  series of things that have to happen.
• 22:37
  It's true. It's a domino effect and Luke
• 22:41
  has to be part of it also. Luke is very much intertwined in
• 22:45
  this. Yeah.
• 22:47
  Mortis is such a mindfuck and I I like it because of that.
• 22:51
  But. It really is, I don't know, like
• 22:54
  it. It's so interesting because a
• 22:57
  soca is different after Mortis in many ways and it's like, is
• 23:03
  it because Asoka just matured or is it because she has some sort
• 23:07
  of divinity in her now? I really think it's that.
• 23:11
  I really do. I do too, especially we just.
• 23:14
  I just sent you that video because we've talked about
• 23:17
  recently about the birds that follow Asoka, you and I
• 23:20
  personally. And someone had posted that
• 23:23
  moment where she's in the World Between Worlds with Ezra and the
• 23:28
  more I is there and she says more I you're here.
• 23:53
  OK, can I just bring this up? And as she says that you hear
• 23:33
  very faintly in the background, I am daughter.
• 23:35
  Yes, as the bird flies to her and I was like, holy fuck, like
• 23:39
  they're making it obvious that like that she and the daughter
• 23:42
  are somehow like either one and the same now or are connected
• 23:47
  permanently that the daughter is still alive through Asoka.
• 23:51
  Whatever the case might be, it's so.
• 23:55
  I know this episode is not about Asoka, but.
• 23:58
  Recently Filoni has compared Asoka to Gandalf the White,
• 24:04
  which for anyway I just read this.
• 24:09
  It was a recent interview because Asoka the show is coming
• 24:11
  at the time of this recording. It's not yet out, but any good
• 24:15
  Tolkien fan out there knows Gandalf the Gray went through a
• 24:19
  similar transformation. Where he died was brought back
• 24:22
  by the higher powers. To do what he was left to do.
• 24:28
  But he came back with a new staff and a new set of clothes
• 24:31
  and a new attitude and a new do. He was Gandalf the White.
• 24:36
  And so what's similar about Asoka in that respect is she too
• 24:40
  went through the same physical transformation, the same
• 24:42
  spiritual. If you were, there were higher
• 24:44
  powers, you know, at work to bring her back.
• 24:47
  And then? You see her at the end of
• 24:49
  Rebels, where she has that staff and her cloak is up.
• 24:53
  It's very similar to how Gandalf the White presents himself to,
• 24:58
  you know, the the the three individuals in the story.
• 25:01
  Eric Gordon, Gimli and Legless and shows like his is the same
• 25:05
  Gandalf, yet he isn't. It's the same with Asoka.
• 25:08
  And so I think all along the force on Mortis knew that she
• 25:13
  still had much more to do. In the long and that goes all
• 25:17
  the way through with Luke too and whatever, whatever.
• 25:22
  We don't know yet that we've seen through Boba Fett and the
• 25:26
  Mandalorian, all this stuff we know she was, her voice was
• 25:30
  there when Ray was going kind of dying and she's going through
• 25:35
  this similar okay. So all of these characters is
• 25:39
  very strange, but mortis mortis. I can't help but think of
• 25:43
  Gandalf in that same way. Yeah, it's not even subtle if
• 25:47
  you think of the imagery and knowing how much Filoni loves
• 25:50
  Lord of the Rings, you know? Well, Gandalf is pivotal.
• 25:53
  He's pivotal. He's good, he's the essential
• 25:56
  good. And when, when he was lost, they
• 26:01
  felt a great loss, they didn't know how they were going to go
• 26:03
  on without him. And then he reappears.
• 26:05
  He was sent back. He was sent from.
• 26:08
  You know, the entities anyway is not to get all into this, but
• 26:10
  like, you know, I mean you could say it's the force of Middle
• 26:15
  Earth. Well, it's kind of interesting
• 26:17
  because Asoka was found by Plow Koon and Dave Filoni said to
• 26:22
  James, when he's being Plow koon, to sound like there you
• 26:26
  go. Oh my God, it's full fucking
• 26:27
  circle. I'm dying over here.
• 26:29
  This is great. Oh my God.
• 26:31
  And he does though. He does, though it's a little
• 26:33
  it's a little more curly than. Ian Mckellen's voice, But still,
• 26:37
  it's Yeah, yeah, but he's got that giant mask.
• 26:41
  Yeah, this is true. This is true, Yes.
• 26:44
  I don't know. I just, I think, I think the
• 26:47
  daughter is most definitely in her.
• 26:51
  I think so too. I think it's, I don't see how it
• 26:56
  could be any other way. I mean he they took the
• 26:58
  remaining life that the daughter had and put it into a soca.
• 27:02
  So I mean, it's got to mean something.
• 27:06
  I mean, she was literally the physical embodiment of the good
• 27:09
  side of the Force. I can also make another Lord of
• 27:12
  the Rings comparison. Bear with me.
• 27:15
  Everybody but in the books, not the movie, but the book.
• 27:19
  Frodo is so severely injured by the Morgal Blade in Fellowship
• 27:23
  of the Ring that when Arwen. Retrieves him and takes him on
• 27:26
  the horse and crosses the river and all this stuff.
• 27:28
  He's so mortally injured that she transfers her life force
• 27:32
  into him to get him to live. And literally that's what
• 27:35
  sustains him. Until you know he can go on.
• 27:38
  He's never quite right from the moment that that blade went into
• 27:41
  him. He's never been right since
• 27:42
  then. But like, he didn't never made
• 27:44
  it without Elvin life force. And she made that choice because
• 27:47
  she wanted to be with Aragorn anyway.
• 27:48
  And she was she she said that's it, I'm done.
• 27:51
  I have. I have another plan anyway.
• 27:52
  Here's my life force. I mean, it was it wasn't as
• 27:54
  flipping it as that, but right. But it was sacrifice.
• 27:58
  She was ready to. Make.
• 27:59
  But where the fuck does Obi Wan come in and all this stuff?
• 28:03
  Well, I have a I have a question.
• 28:05
  Yes, what if he was bitten by the brother like a soca?
• 28:12
  Oh, I I'm here for it though, right?
• 28:15
  Like that could have been really cool cuz like, OK fine, you
• 28:18
  can't tempt him and you can't guilt.
• 28:21
  Him you can force. What about?
• 28:22
  Yeah, exactly. You could force him by biting
• 28:26
  him, apparently. Obvious something very obvious,
• 28:29
  yeah. Or if he got stuck with that
• 28:32
  blade, what if he got stuck with the What was the purpose of that
• 28:35
  knife? What was that?
• 28:38
  My gosh, I can't remember what it's called now.
• 28:41
  I feel like I should know this. We've talked about it so many
• 28:43
  times, I know, but my brain is so tired and old now.
• 28:48
  Could you get pinpricked by that?
• 28:51
  Could that be a well that could that could maybe be the way to
• 28:54
  bring him back? Or that you could, yeah, prick
• 28:56
  him with that and let all the evil seep out of him.
• 28:59
  Yes, Because sometimes you have to, like, spill blood as a
• 29:03
  sacrifice, you know, And that would be the way of turning him
• 29:06
  back with that blade. And we love a good cut on Obi
• 29:08
  Wan. It always looks good.
• 29:10
  So we don't we don't mind. Sorry Obi Wan, I'm just
• 29:13
  nominating you for bruises, but. But that's a good way, yeah.
• 29:18
  Make it obvious. Make it so obvious that the
• 29:20
  audience can't question it like, oh, he just got injected with
• 29:24
  something from the brother. Oh, it makes sense, right?
• 29:27
  I'm like, what would that circumstance be?
• 29:29
  They he kidnapped a soca. She wakes up in this tower
• 29:34
  dungeon with this little. Gargoyle creature, A little
• 29:38
  dude. Yeah, I feel like with Obi Wan
• 29:41
  it would have to be something he pitied.
• 29:45
  Oh, like what? Like some creature in like, a
• 29:50
  Gollum? Kind of, yeah.
• 29:52
  He'd be the one to like something that he pitied and
• 29:55
  felt sorry for and got close enough for us to bite him.
• 30:00
  I'm thinking about this now and I'm feeling like because he was
• 30:02
  a lover of like animals and creatures and he always got
• 30:05
  along with them, which is a sign of, you know, they always say
• 30:07
  animals can sense evil, yeah. Well, animals always loved it.
• 30:11
  Oh boy, I stepped. Those giant ticks.
• 30:13
  On Ryla. You know those things.
• 30:15
  But they were bred. They were hungry, but they were
• 30:17
  starved. Yes, they were treated terrible.
• 30:20
  Awful stop at Clone Wars. But like if if it was similar
• 30:25
  to, like you said, like a kind of sentient, like you know,
• 30:29
  something with a conscience, he could like feel bad for it and
• 30:32
  try and help it. He's always willing to help.
• 30:35
  Yeah, that usually gets him in trouble.
• 30:37
  Remember when he helped on Kodavo?
• 30:41
  Yeah, bit him in the ass quite a bit, Kadava.
• 30:46
  So yeah, it would have to be something where they take your
• 30:48
  strength and use it against you, which is what Kadava was really
• 30:52
  good at. So it would be his compassion
• 30:54
  would be the thing that got him in trouble.
• 30:56
  Man, that I think Mortis. I think it was too deep for
• 31:00
  Mortis. I think it would have added a
• 31:02
  layer, another episode. The arc would have been four
• 31:05
  episodes. But why not?
• 31:08
  It was so fucking good anyway. What's another episode?
• 31:12
  I know well, and it's such a it was such a bummer, kind of like
• 31:15
  I I get it, they have this ideology for for Obi Wan and
• 31:19
  they really stuck to it. So I get it and I respect that.
• 31:23
  But they were like they were turning everything on its ear.
• 31:28
  In these episodes, stuff that you never thought was possible
• 31:31
  became possible. Like it would have been the one
• 31:35
  one time. Yeah.
• 31:36
  What if Obi Wan had seen what Anakin saw like?
• 31:42
  During that montage of what's to come, right?
• 31:47
  And like got super angry at Anakin and freaked out.
• 31:51
  Like what? If that would have been part of
• 31:53
  the plan, they would have freaked about completely anyway.
• 31:57
  Yeah, he's in that vision. After all of that, imagine what
• 32:02
  the duel on Mustafa would have been like, knowing what they
• 32:05
  they knew, you know. All the way back.
• 32:08
  Do you think the father would have wiped Obiwan's memory like
• 32:11
  he did Anakin? Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 32:13
  Yeah, I feel like the father is kind of.
• 32:17
  We've always we've talked about how he's a little bit.
• 32:20
  I don't like him. Yeah.
• 32:22
  It's like you can't really trust him because he's both light and
• 32:26
  dark. He is the balance.
• 32:29
  But I have a bone to pick with the balance is the balance.
• 32:37
  That selfish, like, I mean, I know it's part of the dark, but
• 32:43
  yeah. I don't know.
• 32:47
  Yeah, I know the whole thing about bringing Anakin there
• 32:51
  against his will and kind of trying to manipulate him into
• 32:53
  staying when he doesn't want to stay, really.
• 32:56
  Well, he says you can leave anytime you want, but if you do,
• 32:58
  you're an asshole. Because here's the reason why.
• 33:01
  And it's like, come on, shows. Yes, everything about it.
• 33:05
  Then you're staying because you feel guilty, not because you
• 33:07
  feel like you want to do this noble thing.
• 33:11
  That breeds resentment, yes. It it definitely the intention
• 33:15
  matters. The reason why you do stuff
• 33:18
  matters. So.
• 33:20
  And you're not going to get a 1920 year old kid to agree to a
• 33:24
  lifetime and an eternity of like you have to make this decision
• 33:30
  now. It's like you can't ask.
• 33:32
  A 20 year old to make any decision with that many
• 33:35
  implications. Can you imagine that's your life
• 33:38
  too? That now you have to deal with
• 33:39
  this insane brother and sister for the rest of your life.
• 33:43
  He still has shit unfinished that, like, hi, what about my
• 33:49
  life? I know in great biblical,
• 33:51
  biblical stories people had to give up that life and walk the
• 33:56
  path. But not that I'm defending
• 33:59
  Anakin, but what do you want from a 20 year old, right?
• 34:03
  Right. It was completely unrealistic.
• 34:06
  And he didn't start the training the same time that like Obiwan
• 34:09
  did or or Osoka did. He was, what was he nine when he
• 34:13
  started something like? That essentially he's what, like
• 34:16
  10 years old, in the force, in in training.
• 34:21
  I don't think that's a fair choice right off the bat.
• 34:24
  Maybe weekly meetings on Mortis would get him more accustomed,
• 34:28
  you know what I'm saying? Exposure therapy, you know.
• 34:32
  Come back in a month or two. Reevaluate.
• 34:34
  See how you feel. You know, Get your affairs in
• 34:37
  order back in the Galaxy and then come back.
• 34:40
  It's a really long interview process.
• 34:44
  It just, I just, yeah, I I I don't know.
• 34:51
  It just the father seems selfish.
• 34:53
  I'm being very verbose today and not in a good way now I.
• 34:59
  It's just so complicated. It is.
• 35:01
  It's very complicated. It's very confusing.
• 35:04
  And I I really do. I don't feel like you can trust
• 35:08
  the father. There's that great scene with
• 35:10
  Obi Wan and the father, after Anakin goes to the will of
• 35:13
  darkness and Obi Wan's like, what have you done?
• 35:18
  Like, what are you doing? Yes, yes.
• 35:20
  And the father's like, oh, he's just we've got to follow his own
• 35:24
  path. It's like, is he or are you
• 35:25
  manipulating him? Like Obi Wan's the only one who
• 35:27
  sees that this is just so bullshit.
• 35:30
  Yeah, and maybe that's why they didn't turn Obi Wan, because
• 35:32
  they needed a voice of reason in the middle of all this fucking
• 35:35
  chaos. And he's the only one.
• 35:37
  Yes, they did. He would have been the only tie
• 35:40
  to reality. But still, as a viewer, I really
• 35:43
  wanted to see it. I want red eye, orange eyed Obi
• 35:47
  Wan. I want to see a furrowed brow.
• 35:50
  I want to see a sharp chin. You know I want to see anger.
• 35:54
  We don't really get to see anger from We saw anger from O E1 when
• 35:58
  he was ready to kill Mall, right?
• 36:00
  Yes, like the lip snarl. The Ewan McGregor lip snarl.
• 36:06
  You know, I love that. I really wanted to ask James
• 36:09
  when he was on the show, but we didn't really have a way to work
• 36:11
  it in of like would he have enjoyed playing something like
• 36:16
  that where Obi Wan was kind of like turned to the dark side?
• 36:18
  Or would that have made him super uncomfortable to play that
• 36:21
  because Obi Wan is so altruistic, you know?
• 36:24
  I bet you as a voice actor he would have loved it because it's
• 36:28
  a challenge. But as a character, I bet it
• 36:30
  would be uncomfortable. Yeah, I guess we should ask
• 36:35
  Ashley Eckstein how she felt, because that was very different.
• 36:40
  I heard she talked about her once.
• 36:43
  She apparently had a lot of trouble doing Dark Asoka and
• 36:47
  James helped her find a way. Because you know how she did
• 36:51
  the, like, little kid kind of baby voice?
• 36:54
  Like that was him helping her kind of find a creepy middle
• 36:58
  ground that was not. It's like, how do you play as
• 37:01
  Sith when you're a child, you know?
• 37:03
  It's true. I mean that's the regression I
• 37:06
  guess you regressed into like your untrained.
• 37:10
  Version of yourself. And that's usually a child who
• 37:13
  doesn't know how to handle their own emotions.
• 37:15
  No offense against children, but they're learning, right?
• 37:17
  They're not. Yeah, that you have to go
• 37:19
  through that your frontal cortex is not done developing until the
• 37:24
  age of 25I. Think so.
• 37:25
  And they're asking Anakin to make this decision at like 20.
• 37:29
  Excuse me, father, have you raised two children?
• 37:33
  He's raised 2 wild brats. Is what he's done you?
• 37:36
  Know I I have. I have words, Father.
• 37:41
  In your fucking castle. And your beard.
• 37:44
  Oh man, looks like an ice cream cone, His beard.
• 37:50
  Yeah, his whole face looks like an upside down ice cream cone.
• 37:53
  Like the I'll stop. Yes, it's.
• 37:55
  No, it does. It's just.
• 37:57
  It's a waffle cone. Shit, go look at a picture of
• 38:04
  him and tell me. Tell me that his freaking beard
• 38:07
  in his chin doesn't look like an ice cream cone.
• 38:09
  I dare you didn't know was that there was an ice cream shop on
• 38:12
  Mortis that only served waffle. It's.
• 38:15
  Called the Well of Darkness. This is so.
• 38:24
  What happened? Listen, everything on mortis
• 38:27
  goes upside down. Topsy turvy?
• 38:29
  It's true. Oh my God.
• 38:34
  I don't know. I I guess, I guess I would have
• 38:37
  loved to have seen all of them turn evil, ice cream or not.
• 38:41
  I think it would have been cool to see them all turn evil and
• 38:46
  how they handle it. And then they would all been on
• 38:48
  an equal playing ground when trying to understand the
• 38:51
  emotions of the other, right? All three of them.
• 38:55
  I would really like to see what would happen to Anakin and Asoka
• 38:59
  for that matter, if yeah, Obi one suddenly wasn't pure good
• 39:04
  Obi 1. The reliable, steadfast, always
• 39:07
  good, always reliable. So many people lean on him all
• 39:12
  the time and so to have like remove him as a a pillar for
• 39:17
  these other people, I think that would be really interesting to
• 39:20
  see. That's the true test, Yeah.
• 39:25
  I just wanted to see the Sith eyes, man.
• 39:27
  We just wanted the eyes. Come on, it's really hot.
• 39:31
  It's. Really hot.
• 39:35
  So hot. You need some ice cream.
• 39:45
  Next week we are going to do something very different,
• 39:47
  something we've never done before.
• 39:50
  We're going to take a prescribed set of values from of religious
• 39:55
  background and apply it to some characters.
• 39:58
  So we are going to examine the seven deadly sins and talk about
• 40:03
  characters that fit into each of these quote UN quote sins.
• 40:07
  So that should be pretty fun, yes?
• 40:10
  I'm really excited to see what we both come up with.
• 40:13
  We're not gonna tell each other ahead of time who we come up.
• 40:15
  With right? No, we're just gonna come to the
• 40:17
  episode and reveal our sins and who embodies them.
• 40:22
  We'll probably have some overlap.
• 40:23
  I would. Probably, yeah.
• 40:29
  So we got some great feedback from one of our listeners and
• 40:31
  patrons, Ben. He sent me a message regarding
• 40:34
  our Dooku episode, which was the previous one, which I thought
• 40:37
  was really fun. Great that Loved it.
• 40:40
  A lot of people loved it in that Leanne had asked me or not just
• 40:45
  me, but in general had asked like, do you have to basically
• 40:48
  behead somebody to become a sin? And it got us kind of onto a
• 40:54
  conversation about murder and how that affects the soul.
• 40:58
  And Ben sent me this comment. He said that our conversation
• 41:03
  reminded him of a quote from the show Leverage, where the
• 41:08
  character says so. You can trust me when I tell you
• 41:12
  you pulled that trigger and two men die.
• 41:15
  The guy you killed and the man you used to be.
• 41:18
  Yeah, that's a good one. Yep, yes.
• 41:22
  I think it really is like a perfect description is what we
• 41:26
  were just saying it's like. Yeah, you crossed that threshold
• 41:29
  and you're never the same after that.
• 41:31
  And that's exactly what Palpatine is looking for.
• 41:34
  You nailed it, Ben. Awesome.
• 41:36
  Thank you for contributing that. That's you nailed it.
• 41:39
  Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us
• 41:44
  here on the Most Things Kenobi Podcast.
• 41:47
  We appreciate every single one of our patrons and are grateful
• 41:50
  for your support. If you'd like to support the
• 41:52
  podcast and become a patron as well, head over to The Most
• 41:55
  Things Kenobi Patreon. As always, you can follow us on
• 41:59
  Tumblr, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube, and don't forget to
• 42:02
  subscribe on your favorite podcast player.
• 42:05
  If you enjoy our podcast, feel free to read us on Spotify and
• 42:08
  Apple. And if you need just one place
• 42:11
  for all of these, head over to most Things kenobi.com.
• 42:15
  So until next time, Myspace Twin, may the Force be with you
• 42:20
  always.