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Is Trauma Really Stored in the Body? New Science for Play Therapists · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy, a weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  We'll explore all things play therapy to elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:34
  So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:45
  To this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 0:50
  So those of you joining us live, my name is Cathi Spooner.
• 0:55
  I'm a licensed clinical social worker and registered play therapist.
• 1:00
  And today we are talking about this whole idea of where is trauma stored.
• 1:07
  So I've been kind of following some of the comments online about this whole conversation since the article came out, and I'm gonna talk about the article today because the article really challenges that whole idea of where's trauma actually stored.
• 1:26
  Is it stored in the organs and other parts of the body as, as would indicated by that very common phrase that we all say or have said, "Trauma is stored in the body," based on, um, I think that came out of the whole- the book written by Dr. Bessel van der Kolk called The Body Keeps Score.
• 1:52
  Not necessarily that he intended that statement to have the outcome that it has had in the trauma field.
• 2:00
  I think the conversation is more about, for those of us in clinical practice, what is accurate and how are we talking about trauma?
• 2:13
  And that's what today's conversation is about.
• 2:16
  Uh, so if you're joining live, then I would love to hear, um, find out who's here.
• 2:26
  Post your name in the comments.
• 2:29
  What population do you work with?
• 2:31
  Are you working with children and adolescents who've experienced trauma?
• 2:35
  Or, and most likely their parents probably have a history of trauma.
• 2:41
  And so I think as play therapists, we are juggling, I don't know if juggling's the right word, but we're… I think juggling is a good word.
• 2:51
  That, that family system in which the child has experienced trauma and there's a very good likelihood that parents have a history of trauma, and the impact of finding out your child has experienced trauma likely will cause some trauma for parents as well, because it's, it's a very, um, disruptive experience in a, in a very profound way.
• 3:27
  And so the way that it impacts people can, can feel traumatic in and of itself for parents as well as for the child, of course.
• 3:37
  So today I think it's, um, an important topic.
• 3:42
  It's interesting because I've, I've read, uh, ki- I've been kind of following the conversation here and there online and reading through comments that people are making.
• 3:54
  One of the things that I have heard people outside of the play therapy community, uh, I'm assuming they're outside of the play therapy community, um, because they didn't have anything indicated in play therapy in their bios when I went to check out who they were and what, you know, what, what their, what their reference was and kind of understand where they were coming from I've, um, what I've noticed is that there's people who are pretty frustrated with this whole knowledge, uh, I'm- with this whole conversation of polyvagal theory being critiqued, um, back in January, and then in April, that idea of where is trauma stored, that whole con- that paper that came out, and a lot of frustration, I think, with that.
• 4:52
  And I find that interesting because the comments I read is everybody knows that, that trau- where trauma is stored, and I don't find that to be the case a lot of times.
• 5:06
  And I don't know the reason for that, to be honest, which I think is why it's good to keep having conversations about it to get clarity.
• 5:15
  And I think clarity is something that each of us have to figure out based on, you know, your values and beliefs and your own research into this conversation and this topic.
• 5:33
  So for the sake of continuing the conversation and fine-tuning and honing our understanding in the play therapy community, I think it's important con- it's an important conversation.
• 5:47
  So I would love to hear your thoughts.
• 5:50
  I would love to know who's joining live.
• 5:53
  Um, so post in the comments where you're from, what population you're working with, and your thoughts and questions.
• 6:01
  Feel free to add that.
• 6:03
  If you find this information helpful, I would love it if you would share across your social media platforms.
• 6:12
  If you're watching on YouTube, please feel free to like and hit that notification bell so you get notified each time I go live, and you can join the conversation.
• 6:26
  For those of you listening on the podcast, if you find this podcast helpful, I would love it if you would pop over to Apple, Apple Podcasts, or apparently Spotify, you can do it as well and leave a comment or a review.
• 6:42
  And let's get started for today, the conversation of where does the body s- I mean, where is trauma stored?
• 6:52
  And there was an article that came out, if you are not aware, there was an article came, that came out, it was published in, um… I put the, I think I put the, um, citation in the description, so if you're interested in reading the article for yourself, it's open access online, so you can, you can read it.
• 7:17
  It was written by, um, Colter, Menino, Fox, and Friston, and it was published in April of 2026.
• 7:29
  The, and the title of it is The Body Does Not Keep the Score.
• 7:33
  And they were challenging that idea of where trauma is stored because the narrative influences our understanding of trauma.
• 7:43
  This is my takeaway.
• 7:45
  The narrative unders- um Influences our understanding of the situation, and that's gonna influence how we're going about treating it.
• 7:57
  And so to me, that's why it's an important conversation to be having, 'cause to be completely honest, that whole idea of the body keeps score never really sat well with me when I considered how trauma memories work and what activates them.
• 8:14
  But I didn't know.
• 8:15
  I, you know, it's what everybody was saying.
• 8:18
  And there was a book called The Body Keeps Score, and I read the book, and it was pretty good.
• 8:23
  And I quoted that book in my book because, 'cause it made sense dealing with trauma.
• 8:29
  And I think what happened for me, and I'm curious for you, you- what your experiences of this have been, but I just naturally assumed that those in, you know, the experts, that they, they, they actually had theories that were sound.
• 8:51
  And I'm not saying they aren't sound, but here's the other part of that.
• 8:56
  I didn't challenge it.
• 8:57
  I didn't, I didn't think about maybe there's ano- another way of to think about that.
• 9:03
  Even though in my mind I kept thinking, "This really doesn't make sense to me.
• 9:07
  It doesn't add up." And so what I found useful about those conversations that started in January of 2026 when that critique by Grossman and the 39 other neuroscience researchers came out challenging the, the idea of polyvagal theory, because some of that didn't make sense to me either, and there were parts of it that did.
• 9:34
  There were parts of it that felt right, and based on my understanding and my research and learning, they fit with that, but there were other parts that didn't even- didn't fit.
• 9:48
  So I kinda used the parts that did make sense.
• 9:53
  And, um, when that article came out, I- it kinda surprised me, thinking, "Oh, okay, well, there's another way of thinking about this." And so then that led me to do some more research and then get into a group, another kind of online membership program with a effective neuroscientist researcher who knew, knew how to speak regular people language and break everything down, all the scientific stuff down to make sense of it.
• 10:27
  And so that, that's kinda set me on this path of really looking at this more.
• 10:34
  And trying to better understand it.
• 10:36
  And then when this second article came out in April about the body does not keep score, and I read that, then, then that started making sense as well.
• 10:49
  Because the things about the body ke- keeps score, that didn't make sense to me, and it didn't fit.
• 10:55
  But I figured, well, what do I know?
• 10:57
  I'm not a scientist, I'm a therapist.
• 11:00
  We go with what the researchers say.
• 11:03
  And, um, that's kind of changed for me now.
• 11:07
  And I think it's important to have these conversations, not to get clicks on, you know … I, I get some of the frustration.
• 11:15
  Everybody's vying for attention on social media, and trying to get clicks and likes, and taking the information and kind of sensationalizing it, and I agree, that's annoying.
• 11:27
  I'm not talking about that.
• 11:29
  I'm talking about we need to be having some conversations about the information that we're using in our theoret- in our, in our, the theoretical information that we're using in our clinical practice, and I think that's important.
• 11:45
  And for me, it was kind of a wake-up call.
• 11:48
  And it's kind of exciting.
• 11:49
  I'm not gonna lie, my little nerdy brain is getting very excited about learning all these things.
• 11:55
  And now I have a place to go to make sure I'm understanding things from somebody who is a scientist and a researcher, and knows how to talk regular people language.
• 12:06
  So I'm very grateful for that.
• 12:08
  So let's, let's talk about the article now that I've kind of laid out why I think it's important to have this conversation Based on some of the, um, some of the comments I'm getting, but also some of the comments I'm reading as I'm exploring this conversation even more.
• 12:29
  So, so what did the article say?
• 12:32
  What is this article?
• 12:34
  So the, the article, The Body Does Not Keep Score, came out in April 2026, and the authors were really challenging that idea of where the body… Where trauma is actually stored and challenging that idea of that it's stored in the body.
• 12:54
  Um, so just as a c- clarification, this is my takeaway on understanding the article.
• 13:03
  I would highly encourage you read it for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
• 13:09
  This is one person's brain making sense of complicated information and figuring out, how do I apply that in clinical practice?
• 13:17
  Because as a, as a therapist, as a play therapist, that's our end goal.
• 13:23
  We need to take the information and figure out how to apply it to help people heal.
• 13:28
  So we're kind of on the front, front a- application side of things.
• 13:36
  So what, what the authors talked about in this article is looking at trauma storage in a different way and explaining how that storage also influences how it's experienced in the body.
• 13:56
  And so the, I think the article provides a deeper understanding of how the brain and the body are working together and the disruptive impact of trauma.
• 14:08
  And keep in mind also that as a play therapist, we're working with children, and teenagers, and families, and so the population that we're focused on helping, they're developing.
• 14:23
  They're in the middle of all of their development.
• 14:27
  All of those neural pathways, tho- that circuitry getting laid down, pruned, and strengthened.
• 14:37
  So- So that makes an impact also in terms of how, as play therapists, do we apply this information to help, to help our clients heal, the ones whose development is not finished yet?
• 14:56
  You could make the case that it doesn't finish even into adulthood once you think about the neuroplasticity of human beings, but for the sake of discussion and the f- sake of not going down too many rabbit holes in one conversation , we're gonna stick to children are in development.
• 15:17
  They're going through a lot of changes in their body, in their brain, all, and s- socially, emotionally, physically, cognitively, they're, they're going through a lot of changes.
• 15:30
  So there's a lot of opportunity what I think for early intervention.
• 15:34
  I think as play therapists we have the opportunity to intervene early, so some of these things that adults are having to work through after 20, 30, 10 years, we can, we can address, we have the opportunity to address that sooner with children, which is, for a play therapist, that's what gets us really excited.
• 15:56
  I know it gets me excited.
• 15:58
  So the, so th- keep that in mind when, when we're having, going through this information and having this conversation.
• 16:07
  So one of the things that the authors talked about is this concept of predictive coding, which I love this.
• 16:15
  This, this made sense to me.
• 16:18
  I don't know about you, but this idea of predictive coding made a whole lot more sense to me than the body, trauma stored in the body.
• 16:28
  Um, and here's why.
• 16:30
  Although I'm, I'm still kinda working through some things, I'll chat a little bit more about that.
• 16:35
  Um, so this idea of predictive coding is that there's a feedback loop between the brain and the body relaying information, um, and then the brain is receiving this information and assessing it based on a variety of processes, including past experiences and memory.
• 16:59
  So essentially we have, we, you know, from, I, you could make the case, I make the case, beginning in utero- Babies, people, uh, have experiences stored away.
• 17:15
  The question is where it's stored and how it's stored, right?
• 17:17
  That's this conversation.
• 17:20
  So the, the, the body takes in information, the brain is taking in information, and through all this vast neurocircuitry, meaning is being made out of it.
• 17:36
  And, um, that sets in motion allocation of energy, where energy is needed to respond to the information that's being received.
• 17:51
  And so this, this rapid processing takes place prior even to conscious awareness, and then it's allocating that energy where it needs to go to respond.
• 18:03
  This lines, to me, this lines up with that concept that Stephen Porges talked about.
• 18:09
  I'm not saying it's the same thing, but you can definitely see the overlap there.
• 18:13
  And the reason I'm saying I don't know if it's the same thing, that's what the researchers argue, because they look at way deeper information.
• 18:23
  But for those of us who are on the user end of things, it's kind of like you, you have the software developers and the network speli- specialists making the whole network run and the software run.
• 18:38
  They know all the intricate details of all of it.
• 18:44
  And w- I'm on the user end.
• 18:46
  I'm on the, "I just need it to do this, so I just need you to tell me what this is and what do I need to do," right?
• 18:56
  Uh, that to me is this conversation between researchers who take the deep dive in, like the software engineers and the network developers and the network engineers, and then I'm on the user end as the clinical therapist.
• 19:12
  I'm on the end where I need to take that information and make it work and practical application of it.
• 19:20
  And so that's, that's why I say this is a very convers- uh, very complex conversation, and I know that 'cause I've been trying to read through all these different articles and it's very complex.
• 19:35
  So from, from a user end standpoint, predictive coding is about energy and, um, I would say I like that idea of energy and information that Daniel Siegel talks about.
• 19:51
  And here's how I think of that based on what I understand this article to mean.
• 19:58
  Information is received based on sensory input and, um, also the past experiences and memory and what's stored away in that.
• 20:15
  And it takes place at such rapid speed it, it, we, it happens before we're consciously understanding what's happening.
• 20:26
  And to me, that kind of lines up with that idea of those neuroception circuits that, um, Stephen Porges talks about.
• 20:33
  And so it also kind of lines up with that idea of what Daniel Siegel talks about as far as- The flow of energy and information and that idea of integration that he bases his, his theory on, Daniel Siegel's theory, Mindsight.
• 20:53
  Um, so the authors propose that trauma is a disorder of prediction, not storage.
• 21:02
  They argue that predictive coding reframes perceptions as active inference.
• 21:09
  And what does that… what do I mean by that?
• 21:11
  The brain does not passively register the world, but actively predicts it, and then adjusts as errors arise, and they're acting to resolve-- and the brain is acting to make sense of what that is and figure out what's accurate and where that energy needs to be allocated.
• 21:33
  So, so I'm gonna bring this to-- I'm gonna go over this next concept, and then I'm, I'm gonna tie it together in terms of how I understand it.
• 21:43
  So they also introduce this idea of meta-stability, which is also another very fascinating topic and conversation.
• 21:52
  So if, if you're watching the live stream or you're watching the replay, or for those of you who are listening on the podcast and you wanna join the conversation, then, uh, pop over to… If you're on listening to the podcast, pop over to my Instagram channel@renewingheartstraining, send me a message or comment on one of my posts where I'm talking about it.
• 22:17
  I'd love to get your thoughts on it.
• 22:19
  Um, for those of you watching live or watching on the replay, post in the comments or send me a message.
• 22:28
  I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
• 22:30
  Here is-- Have you heard of meta-stability and predictive coding, and how are you making sense of this?
• 22:36
  So this idea of meta-stability- Metastability is a concept that's talking about the brain's ability to flexibly switch between various neural network states and, and c- it consider the different possibilities and use that information to switch in whatever way it needs to do that.
• 23:04
  And what the authors propose is that trauma causes rigid metastability because the brain inaccurately predicts information received as danger rep- um, that's gonna result in negative and inaccurate feedback loop between the brain and the body.
• 23:25
  So, um, the brain is going to, and this is how that predictive coding and this idea of metastability come together in my mind, which is based on past experiences because a traumatic event happened, and depending on the severity of it and the extent of it, how it was dealt with, all kinds of factors.
• 23:50
  There are s- all kinds of factors that influence how we're making meaning of it and how we respond In a, in a kind of a simpl- simplistic, we're talking about a trauma response and clients are getting stuck in their trauma, then what we're talking about is that rigid meta-stability and that causing that, um, faulty prediction feedback loop being activated where something happens, it's inaccurately perceived as danger, and that sets in motion those physiological responses.
• 24:29
  Where is that energy needed in order to respond?
• 24:33
  Well, if it's a danger threat, then it's gonna activate the sympathetic system for fight or flight, or maybe the parasympathetic for freeze.
• 24:45
  And the problem that we find, and this is our work as therapists, is that we are… Sorry, I got distracted.
• 24:53
  Hi, Jared.
• 24:54
  Jared's gonna be my guest in a couple of weeks.
• 24:57
  Sorry, I just saw that you're on Instagram.
• 24:59
  I wanted to say hi.
• 25:01
  Um, now I got, I got sidetracked.
• 25:04
  I'll get back on track.
• 25:05
  So we're talking about, uh, faulty prediction, and what happens with that faulty prediction feedback loop is now instead of being flexible to consider various explanations for the information, now it's limited, and it's kind of like they're stuck in this loop.
• 25:26
  I always think of the ana- I don't know why my brain goes this way, but my… Here's my b- my brain goes to this imagery.
• 25:33
  Um, y- so you know train tracks, right?
• 25:36
  They're out in the open, they're made of metal, and if they haven't been used for a while, and maybe they're just constantly on this one track that's being used, and there's another possibility, but let's say for the last year or two years or maybe 10 or 20 years, that train is, that train track is only running on one path.
• 25:59
  And then back in the olden days, I think they would have this wheel that would try to switch the track manually.
• 26:05
  In my mind, I, I have this, this visual image of the tracks squeaking, and they're kind of stuck, and they're not changing.
• 26:13
  They're kind of rusted where they are.
• 26:15
  That's kind of the, uh, imagery I think of when I think of these neural pathways and this neural circuitry when trauma gets stuck.
• 26:26
  Uh, trauma causes or results in that, that faulty predictive feedback loop.
• 26:34
  And here's what happens.
• 26:35
  The brain is telling our clients that danger is there.
• 26:41
  The brain is telling them that.
• 26:43
  So it must be true if my thoughts are, 'cause the emotions are tied with cognitions, and that's also plays a role in this response that we have- Then what, what happens is the brain is saying danger does exist.
• 27:01
  The problem is it doesn't.
• 27:04
  And the problem is they have this predictive feedback loop that's allocating resource, energy resources to respond to threat, but there is no threat.
• 27:15
  And that's, and then that becomes disruptive in life.
• 27:19
  And so what the authors of this article are talking about, they are explaining that trauma is actually a glitch in how the brain predicts danger, and not just something stored in the body.
• 27:37
  That it's this vast network, um, that involves how the brain is making sense of what happened and what is it predicting.
• 27:48
  And so it's predicting at lightning speed, the brain is predicting at lightning speed, so before, before the brain has an opportunity to engage some of those other frontal lobe areas and all the other networks that are needed to challenge and think about what's going on a different way, it's kind of stuck in that, in that pathway, uh, of that faulty prediction loop.
• 28:15
  That makes more sense to me than being stored in the body because, um, because the, the meaning that we're gonna be making is not accurate when we've experienced trauma, but our brain is telling us it's true, and our body is responding as if it's true.
• 28:35
  So I'm thinking about what's going on in my body, like my body just got hijacked, thinking, "What the heck?
• 28:41
  Danger.
• 28:42
  It must be real," and my brain is saying, "Danger." But what, in that moment, this is why it matters for us as therapists.
• 28:50
  One, we're gonna hold that and help them through that process, and we have all kinds of ways to do that.
• 28:56
  But in the meantime, what we're wanting to actually get to at some point through that therapeutic process is help our clients really understand that the brain is making meaning in a way that's not accurate.
• 29:13
  So we're having to check with the cognitions associated with it.
• 29:18
  What are the emotions?
• 29:19
  This is where that emotional granularity that I talked about in last week's episode comes in.
• 29:26
  And then how are we experiencing that in the body, and then what are we gonna do with that?
• 29:32
  Um, so I'll talk about that in a minute.
• 29:35
  I did wanna get to the last thing that the authors talked about, which I've been pondering, um, this whole idea of flow state.
• 29:45
  In fact, I, I follow Steven Coulter.
• 29:49
  He's one of the authors.
• 29:50
  He's the first author identified, listed in the article.
• 29:55
  I've been following him on Instagram trying to get a better idea of what this flow thing is, because the article talks about their theory, and they'll say it's a theory, so we have to take that for what it is.
• 30:09
  This is their theory based on all of their research and making meaning of things.
• 30:17
  And Carl Fristen, who's also one of the authors, has this other theory of free energy, and that's a whole theory, too, and I, that I'm, I'll be diving into that at some point 'cause I, I'm curious about that as well.
• 30:31
  So they talk about these a little bit in the author, but I just wanna make sure I'm clear this is their theory, and there's, they'll even say there's no research to validate it.
• 30:42
  Um, they're kind of in that process.
• 30:44
  You have to go through the process of resourching it, researching it to get the data.
• 30:49
  So that's kind of the, how I've understood it.
• 30:52
  So this idea of flow, flow that they talk about in the article- Um, they d-- I'm gonna read the definition from the article, and this is from page three of the article.
• 31:06
  Excuse me.
• 31:07
  What they say is, "Flow is a state of complete absorption in a meaning- in a meaningful high challenge activity." So what they're doing is they're proposing their theory of this flow state may be, may disrupt that inflexible meta-stability, um, and increasing the ability to get that flexible metastable functions back.
• 31:37
  And here's another quote.
• 31:38
  The, they say that, "The brain's networks become more variable and context responsive if you can help people get into," what they call flow state.
• 31:49
  Um, and what they're saying is flow activities that are going to facilitate flow state include… They have this whole thing that they'll talk about, um, and I haven't read too much in depth on this one.
• 32:05
  I, I do find it fascinating, though.
• 32:07
  Surfing.
• 32:09
  Surfing therapy.
• 32:10
  Well, how fun could that be?
• 32:12
  Um, that's like the grown-up version of play therapy, I think.
• 32:17
  Um, yoga, intense exercise is another one, and mindfulness meditation.
• 32:23
  So I'm kinda curious, I've been pondering how this might, um, or if, could it be relevant for play therapy?
• 32:32
  And here's why I thought about that because, so I have an online consultation program, I'll talk a little bit more about this as well, um, and a training that I have coming up using play therapy, so I'll talk more about that.
• 32:46
  In Play Therapy Academy, which is my, like, really in-depth, more intensive consultation program, one of the therapists has been doing EMDR, and she and I nerd out a little bit together about, about the neuroscience.
• 33:02
  And she, she's been talking about this, um, she calls it EMDR 2.0, and so she's described it, some trainings that she's gone to.
• 33:12
  And part of Play Therapy Academy is you're showing video and getting feedback on using your therapeutic model.
• 33:20
  Um, plus you get the support of other people in there so you don't feel like you're having to do it alone.
• 33:26
  And she was show- She, she got permission, of course, and we were reviewing this, this play therapy session in which she was using what she calls EMDR 2.0.
• 33:38
  And she had explained the theory behind it and, you know, why the- they're saying this, this version of EMDR works.
• 33:48
  And basically what you're doing in this and, um- in this EMDR 2.0 is you are taxing working memory.
• 33:59
  So you have them doing different things, some physical things, some cognitive things, all at the same time, while also reprocessing this traumatic memory.
• 34:13
  I'll be honest, it looks like chaos, um, but it, it's not.
• 34:16
  And so I thought about that, and then, uh, in the, in the, um, video what we saw was she did the EMDR 2.0 process, and then went into child-led play.
• 34:29
  And it was interesting to see this child who had s- experienced some pretty significant trauma, the w- how that released, I don't know, I- this is, I, I could be wrong about this, but it's kind of the sense that I think I'm onto something though with the way I'm considering this.
• 34:48
  Um, the, the free play, the flow, and the ability to Um, really use the play therapy process to explore some of that trauma, you could see it in the play, you could see it in the themes in the play.
• 35:08
  And so what we talked about, we talked about the themes and kinda, um, gave some more depth to what was going on in there.
• 35:16
  And but it was… I, I wonder about this idea of flow for that.
• 35:20
  I don't know, I'm just pondering it, and I, I don't hear too many t- people talking about this EMDR 2.0, so I'm not sure about that.
• 35:31
  And I just thought it was interesting 'cause I think to myself, "Well, how, how do we take this information for play therapists, and how do we use it in our practical application?" Right?
• 35:44
  We're on the user end of this, this research process.
• 35:49
  So anyway, I thought that was interesting in the article.
• 35:53
  I've been kinda researching that some more.
• 35:54
  If you, if you've been doing some research on this idea of flow or the Karl Friston's i- um, theory of free energy, and you're a therapist, and you're looking at making sense of it, post it in the comments.
• 36:11
  Join the conversation.
• 36:13
  So what does this mean for play therapists, right?
• 36:18
  Here's how I think it matters for play therapists.
• 36:22
  We really need to use clear language that helps us understand the impact of client first and foremost, because our theory model influences how we are making sense of what's going on, and also what are we gonna do to help our clients heal.
• 36:44
  So if… And then research influences or kinda keeps us up to date about what the researchers are finding.
• 36:55
  And here's the reality of research.
• 36:57
  Their job is to research, to question, to take apart, to figure it out, to prove or disprove.
• 37:06
  So they're always looking at it from a questioning standpoint of why it works or why it doesn't work, and then they'll take a deeper dive on that, and then they'll replicate.
• 37:18
  On the user end of things, we just need to know what's going on, and are we on track, and how are we making sense of these things?
• 37:27
  And so this is where our theory model comes into play.
• 37:33
  Our theory model is gonna influence how are we making sense of things.
• 37:36
  So Jared, 'cause you're watching, I'm gonna put a little plug in for your upcoming play therapy training on, um, so U- Utah Association for Play Therapy has this training coming up using Jungian Play Therapy, and Jared's gonna be teaching it.
• 37:52
  I think it's gonna be awesome.
• 37:55
  S- so what does that mean?
• 37:56
  So if I'm a Jungian play therapist, my theoretical model is gonna influence how am I making sense of what I'm seeing in the playroom, and also how am I making sense of what is going on with my client?
• 38:10
  What is at the root of this problem?
• 38:13
  And then my theory model is gonna influence what do I do about that.
• 38:18
  I'm a firm believer that neuroscience and attachment can be plugged into pretty much any of our play therapy models to give a little more depth to it.
• 38:30
  It's gonna be influenced by our theory model, and it's also gonna influence a little bit of how we're making sense of our theory model.
• 38:40
  So if I'm looking at, um, if I'm looking at this whole idea of how trauma is stored, then I'm, I'm gonna think about this predictive feedback loop and how the, the, how our clients are engaged with this.
• 39:02
  And then I'm go- I might look at from a Jungian play therapy standpoint, well, how, how am I making sense of what I'm seeing in the playroom through maybe the archetypes that they're using to figure out this predictive feedback loop and make sense of it?
• 39:20
  The younger the child, the more we're gonna see that played out in the play therapy process.
• 39:26
  But maybe I'm using EMDR, and maybe I'm using EMDR with my clients.
• 39:31
  Then EMDR is going to, they're gonna cover all of those.
• 39:36
  They're gonna look at what is my belief, and it's gonna be a negative cognition.
• 39:43
  It's gonna look at what are my emotions, so now I'm looking at emotion gra- granularity, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna look at how it's stored in the body.
• 39:51
  So where am I experiencing these in my body?
• 39:54
  So I'm looking at that predictive feedback loop.
• 39:58
  I'm looking at meta stability, and then EMDR is gonna influence how am I gonna get at that So our, for a play therapy standpoint, we're still looking at how are we using this information we're gleaning from research in our play therapy model, and then how is it influenced from what are we doing in play therapy sessions?
• 40:24
  And then, um, it's also gonna influence how are we making… how are we explaining this to parents, and how are we explaining it to our clients, and how are we making sure we're using clear and accurate language?
• 40:41
  Because if we say trauma is stored in the body, then that leaves out this whole predictive feedback loop meaning of, well, it's not just my body.
• 40:51
  I don't have to just, like, do movement and I'm gonna wriggle out the, the trauma where it's stored.
• 40:59
  It misses the point, and that's the problem I've always had with it.
• 41:04
  That never made sense to me.
• 41:06
  And but if we're understanding that it's caught in this predictive feedback loop that runs faster than my conscious awareness can make sense of it, and if I'm a kid, I'm, I'm probably not gonna make sense of it at all because cognitively I'm still figuring things out.
• 41:24
  I need the grown-ups to help me.
• 41:26
  But if I'm explaining it in terms of this predictive feedback loop and this idea of meta-stability and emotional granularity and, and then how that fits in with my play therapy model, then that's gonna help me find language that will make sense for my clients and for their parents.
• 41:46
  So to me, that's why this conversation is important to be having and figuring out what does this mean on the user end of things for our clinical work.
• 42:00
  And so s- I… This is-- I love talking about this stuff.
• 42:05
  It is so nerdy.
• 42:06
  But the thing is, we have-- we're, we're clinicians.
• 42:10
  We have to have a way to take the information and make it work.
• 42:14
  And if you've worked with trauma, you, you know sometimes things feel stuck in the body.
• 42:21
  We feel it, right?
• 42:23
  And I think it's important to understand, okay, then it's tied to this predictive feedback loop, and what does that mean?
• 42:31
  It still means we can use those somatic things that we've been doing, like deep breathing or yoga or movement or play.
• 42:42
  We can still do those things.
• 42:44
  We just need to be clear on why we're doing it and making sure that the why is grounded in accurate information and an accurate understanding.
• 42:57
  So Just a little recap for today.
• 43:02
  Um, what we've been talking about is, is trauma really stored in the brain-- I'm sorry, in the body?
• 43:10
  And this article that was written by, um, Colter, Menino, Fox, and Friston that was published in 2020-- uh, April 2026 about the body does not keep score, and what do they propose is happening instead.
• 43:29
  And what they're proposing is that the brain and body are engaged in a predictive feedback loop to ensure our survival, and that trauma disrupts that, that feedback loop and cau-causes your clients to get stuck in the brain assessing information and situations inaccurately and, uh, and, um, activating that survival response based on how the brain has assessed that information.
• 44:01
  And it's important to keep up to date on accurate understanding of how trauma impacts your clients, and that provides you some information for how you're gonna use that information with your play therapy theoretical model.
• 44:18
  'Cause we're still gonna need to use a theory model, a play therapy theoretical model, and even if you're using, um, a an integrated play therapy model, you're still integrating specific theories, and those specific theories are gonna influence how are you making sense of what's going on, and then how are you gonna help your client?
• 44:43
  What are you gonna do?
• 44:44
  When are you gonna do it, and how are you gonna do it?
• 44:46
  And who's gonna be involved, meaning parents, and how are they gonna be involved?
• 44:50
  So we still are applying this information in our theoretical model.
• 44:56
  So that is it for today.
• 44:59
  That was, um… So let me just do a, um, quick… If you are interested, I have a training coming up, Healing Trauma Through Play Therapy: A Neuroscience and Attachment Approach.
• 45:12
  It's coming up on June 6.
• 45:14
  Registration closes June 4.
• 45:17
  You can attend in person in beautiful St. George, Utah, or virtually.
• 45:22
  Or if you're not available, or you live outside the country and the time zone is horrendous for you, there's gonna be a recorded version available that you can sign up and register for the recorded version.
• 45:35
  So you choose which.
• 45:37
  There's three options for getting the, the training: either attend in person, attend virtually, or get the recorded version that'll be available after the training ends.
• 45:49
  We're gonna, we're gonna go through the neuroscience and attachment.
• 45:54
  We're gonna break that down because this is what's gonna influence how are you making meaning of what's going on with your client.
• 46:01
  So having an accurate understanding, I find this comes up all, all, all the time in Play Therapy Academy, and now we're also doing this in my other membership, Elevation Circle Where one of the things that we're focused on doing is using that neuroscience and attachment lens to figure out, well, what's going on, because you can't figure out what to do until you understand what's going on and you're making meaning of what is at the root of it.
• 46:31
  That's gonna be influenced by your theoretical model.
• 46:34
  So for this training, we're using a neuroscience and attachment theoretical lens.
• 46:39
  We are looking at all of this predictive coding and metastability and homeostasis and allostasis and emotional granularity, and then we're gonna take that information and put it in a framework.
• 46:52
  There's a, there's a framework that I'm gonna teach you in terms of, like, what to do, when to do, and how to do it, what are the different stages.
• 47:02
  And we're also gonna look at a little bit of how to make sense of what you're seeing in the playroom, like what are the themes, and then also talk a little bit about how, how to engage caregivers, because that's really, really important.
• 47:17
  So if you're interested and you have been feeling lost and unsure how to help your traumatized clients heal, then sign up for the training because we're, we're gonna talk about a clear framework for what you need to do and how you need to do it and when you need to do it and who needs to be involved in making sense of all of that.
• 47:39
  So if you're interested in the training, pop over to my website at rhplaytherapytraining.com.
• 47:48
  Sign up for Healing Trauma Through Play
• 47:51
  Therapy: A Neuroscience and Attachment Approach.
• 47:55
  Therapy: Registration ends soon.
• 47:57
  Therapy: If you're… Um, and I will see you next week.
• 48:01
  Therapy: Bye for now.
• 48:04
  Therapy: Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 48:09
  Therapy: I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 48:18
  Therapy: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 48:24
  Therapy: Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 48:30
  Therapy: Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 48:34
  Therapy: Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships.
• 48:45
  Therapy: If you have any questions or topic suggestions for future episodes, I'd love to hear from you.
• 48:52
  Therapy: Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 49:05
  Therapy: Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 49:09
  Therapy: Until next time, keep playing, learning, and growing.