Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Death Proof Wallet?💀BRON Founder Dmitry Tokarev INTERVIEW🔒

Transcript

Death Proof Wallet?💀BRON Founder Dmitry Tokarev INTERVIEW🔒 · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Let's jump into crypto without fear today. A lot of
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this is going to be centered around self-custody, but also
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: what's been happening in the market that could affect all
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: of this. That's including what's going on in a very
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: wild September. And of course, what else is going on
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in Wall Street in terms of moving on chain? I
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: want to bring in Dimitri coming in from Braun Wallet,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: who is going to kind of break this down.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Dimitri, how are you?
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Great. Thanks for having me, Paul.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: All right. So, Dimitri, a couple of things.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I want to kind of head off at the pass
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: here is you look at the general market being affected
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: by Clarity Act here in the U.S. That, of course,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: did not go through. Then, you know, a week later,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: same week, you see the Fed go in, pop a
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: rate hike in. Then, of course, we see the crypto
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: market responding to the SEC and the CFTC. So the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: market is active. People are thinking about trading again. They're
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: also thinking about custody. So we'll talk about that because
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I know you guys led off with a new feature
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: that was kind of interesting, and that is succession planning.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: And this is in reference to a self-custody.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Wallet with Braun.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: First of all, when you look at the market as
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: it is right now, are traders today starting to look
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: at features like this in terms of their self-custody assets?
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent. You know, like we came from the
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: institutional world, like from the, from the business, which servicing
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: hedge funds and trading firms and, and folks alike. And,
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: you know, a question of losing a seed phrase or
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: losing a device is not, is not, is not even
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: in a territory like which they need to consider because
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: that problem was solved, I would say six or seven
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: years ago with introduction of MPC technology. So we essentially,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: what we're doing, we're just bringing the feature parity from
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: institutional world over to consumer side and recovery and succession
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: planning and policy engines is all part of it. Because
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: obviously people accumulated certain amount of wealth in crypto, people
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: have been investing in the space actively over the last
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: 10 years, which now is no longer $ 200, $ 500, but rather,
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And, you know, people,
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: you know, life happens and you want to make sure
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: that you can pass on this to your loved ones
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: if something, God forbid, happens to you.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Well, and you've got, you know, the market is heating up.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: You know, I just mentioned, you know, Bitcoin clearing 85.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: You had clarity. You've got a restructure of the Fed.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: You've got issues happening with CFTC and the SEC. And
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: now you have.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Tokenized assets coming to what seems to be almost.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Everybody out there.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I know you have a thesis on tokenized assets in general,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: especially look at tokenized stocks and the opportunity that that
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: represents for not only a crypto trader, but a traditional trader.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: When you guys are building products at Braun, are you
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: preparing for those kinds of on-chain activities coming in the future?
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: A thousand percent. The next cycle is going to be
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: around tokenized securities. People call them tokenized RWAs, but let's
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: just call them tokenized securities. That's the reason why I
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: switched into the space from traditional finance, actually. So we're
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: finally coming to that stage where we can actually see
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: this life. Just to give you the numbers, right, how
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: fast this space has been growing. So it was in
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: January 25, it was about $ 30 million in permissionless tokenized securities.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: It was about $ 800 million in January this year. And
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: then started accelerating roughly in and around May time. And
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: it was 1.5 in May, 2.3 in August. And today,
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: I just checked today, it's 3.2 billion. So I think
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen is what happened to stablecoin market
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: in the previous cycle. So I explicitly recall sitting on panels,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: people talking about CBDCs and CBDCs are going to kill Circle,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: CBDCs are going to kill Tether. And me arguing that no,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: you know, permissionless stable coins are going to win and
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: so on and so forth. And at that point in
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: time was six, seven, $ 8 billion total market cap of
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: stable coins. As soon as sort of it crossed the
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Carmen line of about $ 100 billion, then people started clocking
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: in and saying like, okay, this is here to stay.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: We need infrastructure. And that's where all the acquisition spree
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: started happening, like in a stride buying bridge for 1.1
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: billion or, MasterCard buying BVNK for $ 1. 8 billion because everyone
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: in the payment space realized that stablecoin infrastructure is important.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: So I think we're just going to have a copy-paste
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: story here in tokenized securities over the next couple of years. Today,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: as I said, it's $ 3 billion, let's call it $ 2 billion.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: As soon as that's going to be substantial, which is
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: like $ 100 billion, $ 200 billion in combined market cap, I
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: think that's really where Wall Street and other folks who
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: are servicing this in a like web two way, are
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: going to look and say like, like we need, we
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: need to make sure that we're not, you know, missing
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: the boat here. So from Braun's standpoint, we're absolutely preparing
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: for it, of course, because again, blockchain, I think this
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: is the last quote unquote crypto cycle that we're going
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: to be experiencing. I think those two things are going
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: to converge. It will be similar to having like quote
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: unquote internet company, right? So finance is moving on chain
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: and it starts with, tokenized securities so crypto and tokenized
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: securities and tokenized other traditional assets are going to be
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: part of the same portfolio and then that portfolio now
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: for the first time in the history of humanity could
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: be fully under your own control rather than trusting someone
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: with with your assets.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah well i think this is the thing that excites
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of our viewers the most is when you
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: get because many of our viewers are self-custody zealots and
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: they've been looking this opportunity in the eye for quite
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: some time.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: And that now appears to be happening.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: We're already starting to see, you know, the innovation exemption
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: coming out of the SEC, which means things like Ando,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: X stocks, et cetera, are going to be able to
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: move much faster in terms of releasing products.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: With that being the.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Case, especially when you look at self-custody wallets like Braun,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: how far away am I being able to hold those
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: kinds of assets and earn yield, loan against those assets,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: do all those kinds of things that I could do
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: with real world assets today inside a self-custody wallet.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: How close am I?
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Well, when it comes to Braun, you're pretty much there already.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: You can do it today. What we were missing before,
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: which appeared over the last 45 days, is an ability
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: to do so without 10%, 20% slippages in your stocks, right? So,
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: That functionality from the likes of Onda and Xstocks appeared
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: about a month and a half ago. So now you're
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: able essentially to go into the platform and request a
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: quote and get the quote and essentially get the instrument
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: inside your self-custody wallet at the reasonable price, at the
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: price which is not going to be different from what
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: you will be getting in a traditional infrastructure. With only
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: one caveat, it's also going to be available for you 24-7, 365. Now,
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: the next iteration... It's super interesting because in the next iteration,
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: like you said, to borrow against those assets. Now, that
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: is a functionality that for the most part of the
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: world is not available today in traditional markets. It's the
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: Lombard lending piece, they call it, or portfolio financing piece. Now,
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Web3 infrastructure will allow people to do it cheaper and
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: more efficiently than Web2 infrastructure is. And the Web2 infrastructure
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: is not going to be able to compete. In traditional world,
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: you're going to have to rely on banks' balance sheets.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: And if you're a large customer, you probably can borrow
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: at a rate which would be similar to software plus
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: 100 basis points, software plus 200 basis points for smaller customers.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: But most people generally don't have access to such infrastructure.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: You're going to have to be like a client of
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: a private bank to do that. Now, in the Web3
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: world today, today it's a bit crazy. I don't think
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: it's going to last for a very long time. But
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: on platforms like Kamino, on Aave, you're able to borrow
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: against certain assets that suffer minus 200 basis points, minus
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: 100 basis points. Because that's not going to last because
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: the equilibrium is going to be there at some point
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: with like suffer plus 50 or something like that. That
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: would be my bet. But the reason for it is
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: because you bypass it. the entire banking infrastructure. So what
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: you're doing essentially there is you're borrowing from 100,000 people
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: directly with a small commission, which is basically the protocol
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: commission there. So that is the infrastructure that traditional finance
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: space will not be able to compete because there are
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: overheads which are associated with a balance sheet and with
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: people maintaining those assets. Which is why I think the
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: transition to the web three infrastructure is going to be
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: inevitable because again, you know, if you can't compete on pricing,
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: you won't be able to compete for very long.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the point you're making is that this
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: is an evolution of finance. The question is, is how
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: quickly will this start to accelerate where we'll really see
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: use cases playing.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: Out, especially in the self custody side of things.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: And do you think we're at a generation point right
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: now where the younger investors, let's say under 40, They
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: understand this technology.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: They have embraced it for the most part.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: And it's likely that we're just going to see an
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: uptick in other under 40s that are going to realize, hey,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: this is the way I need to do all my
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: financial structures now.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Self-custody is the route here.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's just a matter of time before
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: that really takes off, both here in the U.S., but
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: also globally?
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: It is, but I also think people have no idea
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: how self-custody is done on an institutional scale properly. Because
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: I spent eight years... running a business that I was
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: describing called Copper, which worked with hedge funds and trading
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: firms and with four other competitors really in the space.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: And all of us are using the same type of technology,
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: which is a multi-party computation technology, which basically does not
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: have a private key. So then we switch on to
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: consumer space and you still discover that people are using
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: devices and they're writing down seed phrases and they basically
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: have to be concerned around physical attacks. They have to
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: be concerned about them losing access to those seed phrases
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: or inheritance and those things. So when we talk about that,
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: there is self-custody that we had for the last sort
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: of nine years and there is self-custody that institutional clients
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: are using. Those are two different self-custody things, right? So
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: we're still in the middle of the journey, maybe even
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: in the beginning of the journey to explaining to consumers
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: who are still below 40, et cetera, is that, look, guys,
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: there is a way of how large customers doing this.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: And through Braun, you can actually now do this. But
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: for them, this is generally new. Let me say, in BlackRock,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: when they basically hold Bitcoin for their ETF, there is
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: nobody at Coinbase that's writing down seed phrases for BlackRock.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Like that just doesn't happen. So the technology that I'm
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: describing is now available for everyone. And I don't think
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: we're going to see the inevitability of that, that you're
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: describing with the technology that we used to have, because
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: it's one thing to have a Dogecoin or Trump coin
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: in your wallet for $ 200. And then if it disappears,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: it's okay. Right.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: But then it's another thing when people have public equities
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: portfolio and on their platform, on their wallet, like it's, it's,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: this is, it's generally 35 times larger holdings that people
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: have in public equities versus crypto, like even if we
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: consider it like crypto enthusiast. So it needs to be
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: on par, like it should be able to have self custody,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: not give up the control. But if you lost your
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: devices or somebody put a gun to your head, you
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: should be secure like institutions are. Right.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's the thing that a lot
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: of people kind of get confused around self-custody in general.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And if you look at now a market uptick that's happening,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: people are starting to realize, okay, I'm starting to roll
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: more assets or more money into assets, digital assets. And
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: even now trading on tokenized stocks, where do I put those?
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: You know, what's the best way to secure these? So
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: for a person that doesn't completely understand, I think everybody
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: in our audience for the most part understands traditional self-custody
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: is seed phrases in general. Explain the broad difference when
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: you guys are out there with these various shards in
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: being able to control a wallet and kind of secure it.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Kind of show me the differences here.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: We use a technology called multi-party computation. So traditional self-custody
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: is all revolves around securing private key. So whoever has
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: the private key has access to your assets. That private
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: key could be represented by the mnemonic phrase or seed phrase,
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: however you want to call it. And so all the
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: conversations around self-custody, they basically revolve around protecting seed phrase,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: protecting private key. Institutional guys, and there are five platforms globally,
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: I would say, the largest players that servicing institutions, right?
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: That would be like Coinbase, Fireblocks, BitGo, Anchorage, and Copper,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: like my company, right? So all of us use exactly
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: the same type of technology. It basically does not create
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: a private key. There is no private key. Your access
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: to a wallet created already in a broken state, which
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: is in our case, three shards, and two out of
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: three shards can sign a transaction without reconstructing the private key. Now,
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: those shards are not private key, so it's not like
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: a multisig, but this is probably the closest comparison. The
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: difference here is that if you lose your shard, then
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: two others can recover you that shard and 3D print
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: the shard back and do the key refresh, the key
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: shares refresh. So that's exactly the same way that all
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: institutional clients today, either in self-custody or in the custodial infrastructures,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: are storing their digital assets.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Now, you said two of the three. The third shard
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: is where?
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: The third shard. So the first shard would be with
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: the client on their device, which they're free to lose,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: but we can still recover. The second one, Braun operates
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: for the client or the way the client program it
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: to operate. That allows to enforce policies such as, you know,
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: if I made transactions over the last two hours, which
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: exceed $ 100, 000, activate security delay or get an approval from
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: my accountant, or by the way, I don't want to
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: be signing transactions outside of working hours or outside of
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: that particular location and basically policies that all institutional clients
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: would have. And the third one is essentially with a
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: trusted third party, which works for you. So that is
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: in case that if Braun disappears from planet earth, then
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: you and trusted third party can recover the assets.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: All right, so a trusted third party, the client themselves,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: obviously the third chart inside Braun. Beyond that, in terms
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: of the circum, I mean, because you look at the
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: number of hacks, I'll just bring this up.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Let's see if I've got it here. Yeah, here we go.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: This was the number of crypto hacks that we have
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: seen between 25 and six. And you can kind of
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: see some of these majors, the Bybit, the KelpDAO, Drift Protocol.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: We've covered a lot of these here on the show.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So this is the one concern that I think everybody
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: has when you get into self-custody is the issue of
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: some of these, even the hardware wallets themselves. What is
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: to ensure me, other than the process that I've got
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: with MPC, with bronze technology, that kind of keeps me
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: outside that vector of being able to see these kind
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: of hacks occur? And is this kind of the ultimate?
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I guess it is for institution, and you're saying now
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: this is available for individuals.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so with institutional clients, and this is quite an
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: interesting slide because with Bybit situation, for example, so about
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: 12 to 15% of balances at that time of Bybit,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: which were institutional balances, they were actually sitting on copper
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: using the technology called Clearloop. Clearloop essentially allows institutional clients
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: to trade on exchanges without moving collateral to those exchanges.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: So the reason why I think also things went relatively
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: quote unquote smoothly is because institutional clients did not pull
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: the assets from Bybit because they're pretty certain where those
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: assets are because they were sitting at their custodian, right?
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: So the rest of those hacks that you saw there
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: were basically to do with DeFi hacks, right? Which is
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: I think is the next big challenge that needs to
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: be tackled and we're actively working on that and there
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: are gonna be news coming out in a couple of
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: months of how we tackle that. But I'll give you
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: like a teaser. The value in decentralized protocols, being it
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: lending protocols or perpetual like swaps protocols or options trading protocols,
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: is in the fact that they are doing risk management
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: and orchestration. That's the biggest value they provide. The fact
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: that the assets are sitting inside of those protocols is
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: actually liability to those protocols. It creates a dangerous situation
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: because obviously Lazarus never sleeps. They try to I think
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: they stopped hacking DeFi protocols since like April actively out
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: of pity because they thought like, well, if we're going
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: to continue doing that, that people just going to capitulate
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: out of DeFi and nobody's going to be deploying assets
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: into protocols. So our objective as a self-custody platform is
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: to essentially create similar situation that we've created with Copper
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: and Bybit where client don't have to put assets in
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: those protocols whilst they can use those protocols for trading,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: for borrowing and for basically using other products that those
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: protocols created in a decentralized fashion. So the next iteration,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: and I think institutions are not active in decentralized finance
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: for exactly that reason, because their risk committees just do
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: not approve limits for them to go and deploy $ 100
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: million in something which could disappear because the returns you
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: need to be generated to justify the risk is not possible.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: So if you remove such risk, then we'll see more
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: and more trading, borrowing and other financial activity moving to
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: decentralized protocols because they are the future. I wholeheartedly believe
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: that because everyone is treated equally. Everybody's getting the same
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: pricing and the liquidity there could be aggregated from all
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: over the world in a permissionless fashion. So I'm super
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: bullish in that.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: I'm looking here at your plans.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: So you've got the essentials plan for someone up to 250K.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: And then what is this team size? So can I
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: have multiple people having access?
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: We thought about this. It used to be one person,
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: but then with one person, you can't have your spouse
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and you can't have your accountant approving transactions with you.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: So we essentially made it available full functionality across the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: tier so people can feel secure and people can utilize
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: the policy engine in its full form. So your team
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: size could be, you know, it could be a spouse,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: could be your accountant, could be someone else who you're
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: signing transactions with. It allows people to start somewhere. And then,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: you know, once you cross 250, you can go on
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: to the high tiers.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there you go.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Portfolio size pretty much unlimited after that once you get
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: into the pro level. I guess team size is the
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: one that you're dealing with and the number of accounts
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: that you can do it. Fees start to drop a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: little bit as well, which is good. Any plans to
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: continue to reduce fees on this?
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: There are ideas, essentially, we're trying to figure. So we're
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: servicing affluent plus segment. We have about 1,000 clients. We've
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: got about a billion of assets. The majority of our
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: clients are like high-net family offices, founders, executives, et cetera.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: We're figuring out a pricing strategy that... So since we
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: charge a subscription, we're essentially able to offer way better
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: fees than any other self-custodial wallet, which predominantly is... is
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: making their revenues from swaps. But we're figuring out a
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: path towards how do we make it more democratic and
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: more available because we're bringing new products continuously. So on average,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: it will probably work out. So there's going to be
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: probably a bit of a reshuffle on that side of things.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: So I would encourage people to just go on brawn.org
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: whenever the episode comes out and just to check the
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: latest on that.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: There was some news that hit the market here on
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: trading cards. You had, of course, Collector Crypt kind of
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: blowing up.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: This is actually dated.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: This is much higher now, but it does mean NFTs
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: might be coming back. So if I'm wanting to hold
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: digital assets like an NFT down the road, how does
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: that work with Braun?
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: In exactly the same fashion. So if you want to
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: keep your NFTs secure and not worrying about you losing
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: the device or writing things down etc uh we provide
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: also uh support for for nfts with full method i
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: just like nfts as well right so it was a
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: little bit of a passion project there you know um
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: i have a charity collection that that i've thought i
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: would build in 100 hours turn like spend most of
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: the year you know free time building that collection myself
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: but you know it's just a nice, you know, to
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: have a look at your NFTs, to have a look
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: at the meta information. And we have quite a few
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: communities who are being part of it and using Braun
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: for that.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: When you, okay, so you have an obvious, you know,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: customer set here, but now you're talking about new people
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: coming into this market and obviously their portfolio is starting
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: to grow into what will be tokenized stocks, which as
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier is those are completely different usually portfolio sizes.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: When you look at the trends that we have right now,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: how much of an impact do you think we're going
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to see on traditional finance, whether it's here in the U.S.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: With Wall Street, in Europe, in Asia?
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Do we really see a transition into digital assets, especially
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: going into, you know, wallets like Braun?
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: There are different estimates when I talk to other founders
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: in the space of how long it's going to take
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: and at what speed we're going to see the transition.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: I think geopolitically speaking, this is sort of the last
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: bastion for the U.S. that's standing in terms of how
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: could the rest of the world get access to U.S. market.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: And the history shows if U.S. wants something, it will
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: happen probably. So from that standpoint, what we're seeing with
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: SEC and CFTC, you know, those first attempts of figuring
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: out how this could be possible. I think ultimately, when
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: people think about tokenized securities, they always compare like sort
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: of the Western world. And, you know, it's like, well,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: I have a Schwab account. I only pay like, you know,
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: $ 2 per execution or something like that, or have an
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: interactive brokerage account, etc., So the rest of the world
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: is pretty much locked out, out of the US market,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: or it's extremely expensive to get in and out in
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: the US market because there are so many intermediaries out there, like,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: you know, the place like Argentina or Turkey or Philippines
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: or Indonesia. And people do want to invest in the
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: US market because obviously, you know, largely technological sector is
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: driven by the US and everybody's seeing what's happening with,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: you know, the open AIs and Anthropic and NVIDIAs and
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Teslas and SpaceX. So, um, Definitely, when people are constructing
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: their portfolios, they want to make sure that certain names
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: that they believe that's going to be there in 10,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: 15 years are definitely part of that portfolio. And if
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: you provide an easy access for it, which is, by
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: the way, 24-7 and not 9-5, which is in different
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: time zones. are not exactly nine to five. It could
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: be pretty two to 11 or something like that. So
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: now that it could be possible to be done in
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: 24-7 fashion and the entry point is extremely cheap for
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: anyone to get in, it's just a matter of time.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know at what velocity this is going to
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: be happening, but we definitely want to play a big
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: part of that as well and making sure that when
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: people buy tokenized, assets, tokenized securities, or tokenized certificates that
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: they currently are, that just because they lost a napkin,
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: they now are locked out of that and they can't
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: recover it. Like that's just not a way forward. I
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: don't think we will be anywhere close to speed that
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: people talking about optimistically, if that's the case, because... Obviously,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: it's one thing, as I said, to lose 200 bucks
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: of Dogecoin, but it's a completely other thing to lose
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: your entire savings portfolio that you're planning to pass on
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: to your kids or holding it for years.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think if you look at what the
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: SEC is doing right now, this innovation exemption is accelerating
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: the markets dramatically. We've got a five-year window right now
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: on these innovations. But to your point, if we don't
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: get more solutions out there that can really kind of
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: provide this kind of security you're going to thwart innovation
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: that the SEC essentially is trying to set up here
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: in the U.S. Now, granted, we don't have a regulatory
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: framework yet, but to your point earlier, is that if
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: the U.S. wants to get something done, it's probably going
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: to get done. It's just a matter of time. But
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I do think the security side is going to be
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: pretty significant going forward. All right, last point I want
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to get on with you is when you look out
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: a year from now in terms of the way this
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: market could roll, is what are you anticipating for the
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: markets and how will this affect you guys in terms
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: of developing more features?
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: I think the biggest challenge for us has been adjusting
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: to consumer mindset from institutional mindset, because there are certain
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: security features, which are like a must in institutional world,
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: but like consumers like never heard of it or they
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: find it difficult. So we're definitely simplifying the flows whilst
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: not compromising on security. I did mention that obviously the
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: tokenized markets, I expect those to, they're growing right now
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: at 20% month on month. If the same rate sustains,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: we're going to be in a completely different territory. I
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: think we're going to see a lot of movements around
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: institutional space and institutional infrastructure, because now it's no longer
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: about crypto. We're talking about tokenized assets and obviously people
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: in the traditional space are going to take notice and
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: going to start figuring out what do we do with
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: our business and how do we adjust to this reality
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: that's currently happening, much like Stripe or MasterCard or Visa
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: is doing now and figuring out the stablecoin. So it's
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: going to be the whole stablecoin traditional payments institution dynamic
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: that we've been seeing over the last couple of years.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: We're going to see the same story in traditional finance
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: and incumbent players figuring out what their path looks like.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: And then again, in terms of providing people access and
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: how fast this market could grow, I'm super bullish. I
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: think this is the next frontier in terms of the
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: next generation companies that's going to be created in this
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: space will be around tokenized securities. We're already seeing interesting
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: competitive dynamic playing out between You know, Ondo and Xstocks
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: and Robinhood Chain and others. So I believe that that's
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: the next cycle. And probably that could be the last
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: quote unquote crypto cycle. There is a whole like new
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: equilibrium set that's going to be created in those type
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: of dynamics. And I think this is going to be
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: a much, much better space.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I like it. Dimitri, thanks so much.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: We're going to be watching Braun very closely as you
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: guys continue to develop. And I think as this market
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: starts to mature, we've got a lot ahead of us.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: So thanks for coming in today.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: We appreciate it.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 29:16
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• 29:18
  Speaker 1: a comment down below and also join our free private
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: member group.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: The link is in the description.