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National Apprenticeship Week - An SME Special · Insights from the Edge

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to a new podcast from the Edge Foundation.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This series is designed to be heard in short versts over coffee or a commute.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We bring together experts in policy, research, and practice.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: We'll explore how education and the world of work are developing for young people and education providers.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be asking how that world will give young people across the UK the knowledge and skills they need to flourish in their future life and work.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Insights from the Edge.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, I'm Sarah Gluck, Senior Policy and Public Affairs Manager at Edge.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's National Apprenticeships Week this week, so we're shining a light on apprenticeships in SMEs.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm delighted to be joined by Anna Morrison, CBE, founder and director of Amazing Apprenticeships, and Krista Bridges, who has just completed an apprenticeship at PebblePad, which is a software SME in the West Midlands, and she is also an official apprentice ambassador.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both so much for being here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, Anna, we know that SME engagement with apprenticeships has been falling in recent years.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that Edge has been highlighting repeatedly through our apprenticeships work campaign.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: I was wondering if you can give us an overview of what you think is behind this disengagement.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, it's a great question.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's quite a complex question, I think, as well.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I have worked in the apprenticeship space for nearly 30 years now, and um we're also an SME, so so I kind of can come at this with my own experience as well of running a business.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think if we go right back to maybe the last 10 years, so when the apprenticeship levy was introduced, I suppose provider behaviour, it drove provider behaviour to really focus on levy paying employers.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the quirks in the system that we had back then was that SME funding was dealt with totally differently.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it was kind of contracts and profiles.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, I can remember 10 years ago, providers having to turn SMEs away because there wasn't sufficient funding in the system.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: So where we had employers who were interested and wanted to take on apprentices, they weren't able to.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yet for larger employers who were paying the levy, it was a kind of you know, fill your boots, take as many as you can.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: So the funding has really impacted apprenticeship starts with SMEs.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a lot that we have to look at around the cost of supporting SMEs as well.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: We know from talking to training providers that it can take longer to work with an SME and they can sometimes require more support to be able to look through the different standards to really understand the best fit for their business.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that kind of hand holding, we call it in the sector, where SMEs are supported.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think your agents of change report that you did through the Edge Foundation really kind of leans into this because where there is brokerage support in the country, it's great because there's that third party who can work with the small business to really help them to navigate funding and standard selection, but it's not consistent, and so we don't have that consistency of approach and that consistency of support across the country.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we also know that where we've again had the kind of reforms around apprenticeships and we've had apprenticeship frameworks being turned into apprenticeship standards, that we've seen the erosion of some level two and level three apprenticeship standards that were typically taken up in quite high volumes by SMEs.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, business admin level two, it's a really contentious one in the sector.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it still hasn't been released, although it has been promised.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think also if we look at the stop start to incentives, so this has been quite damaging because small businesses really need to be able to plan into the future and they need to have that line of sight for finances.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: And where we've had incentives, such as during COVID, like the enhanced apprenticeship incentive that was a big boost, then that got turned off and it dropped back down to a thousand pounds.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we've seen that kind of over many years, where at times there will be additional incentives and financial support that's put in place for employers, but it's not consistent.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think the thousand pounds that we've got at the moment is sufficient, really, for what we need to really engage SMEs and to get apprenticeships to the top of their to-do list.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and I guess finally, I just think there is still a huge lack of awareness for some small businesses out there about what apprenticeships are and the benefits that they can bring to their organisation, which is where it's great that the Edge Foundation apprenticeships work campaign is it's crucial, really, isn't it, for being able to engage employers, small businesses, and really showcase the brilliant benefits that apprenticeships can offer their organizations.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Anna.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really, really helpful overview there.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Standing to a more positive note here, um, while SME engagement has been declining, we've actually seen interest in apprenticeships, particularly amongst younger people, increasing in recent years, which is very exciting for those of us who have been really pushing for this parity of esteem argument.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was just wondering what you think is behind this increased interest amongst young people and what can we do to kind of keep this momentum up?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, it's great to see, isn't it?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I think interest in apprenticeships amongst young people is higher than we've ever seen before.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um I like to think that um the work of Amazing Apprenticeships and of course the Ask program over the last 10 years, going into schools, working directly with young people and teachers and parents has had a huge impact in that perception change around apprenticeships.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um we've also got brilliant, brilliant apprentices like Krista today, who you're going to hear from, who um are going out and sharing their stories.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that's so important.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: The role modelling piece and for individuals to be showcasing apprenticeships at all levels in all corners of the country is crucial.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Alongside that, we've got employers as well, and I guess because of the apprenticeship levy, we've now got employers and some really big names, high-profile employers who are speaking really positively about apprenticeships in their workforce, which has brought that parity of esteem, I think.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: When perhaps young people used to be encouraged to look at um grad schemes with employers, actually, you've now got apprenticeship schemes running in parallel and employers saying these are really important pathways for our organisation, which has been fantastic.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: And and that real, I think, overall strengthening of careers advice and careers education generally, with the Careers and Enterprise Company and the Careers Hubs and the Gatsby benchmarks, and schools themselves doing more than ever.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: And we see this on a daily basis with schools working with us, using our resources, they are excited to be talking about apprenticeships with their students and they want to do more.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to support them, I think, to kind of continue that momentum.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to keep that information up to date.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and as you say, it's it's been incredible to see the impact of the Arts programme.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Krista, so Anna has teed you up really nicely there in terms of talking about your excellent work in terms of promoting the benefits of apprenticeships to other young people your age.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was just wondering, do you kind of see a similar level of interest amongst apprenticeships about apprenticeships, or do you think it's changed quite a lot since you were in school?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I say it has changed quite a bit since I was in school.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was in school in the mid to late 2010s, um apprenticeships weren't really talked about that much in school.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: They were a bit more in college, um, I suppose potentially because I did a vocational BTEC, so it's kind of like naturally one of the things that sort of comes up as a potential pathway.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And as a result, potentially, um, quite a few of my friends went the university route and certainly got a lot out of it.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say that in the last few years where I've been an apprentice, and well, now I'm a graduated apprentice, I am recognising that shift in interest um in young people.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, when I've gone back to my old school or old college, like specifically my college, for example, they've said that their students are particularly interested in degree apprenticeships, say, and apprenticeships generally.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So personally, I am seeing that shift, and it's really great to see.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: So take us back to when you were in school and what made you decide to take on an apprenticeship?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so in school I knew what I wanted to do, and I was originally intending to do an apprenticeship straight after school, but um couldn't actually find one um that I was sort of interested in in the IT space within my sort of area because it it's kind of rural um here where I am.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: But my sort of like general um motivation for doing an apprenticeship was fundamentally being able to earn while you're learning because like it gives you like a lot of financial independence, for example, with like getting to earn for the first time, and as I say, I sort of like knew what I wanted to do, and it it was sort of good to sort of have the opportunity to just do it.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that that said, even if I wasn't 100% on what I wanted to do, I still think apprenticeships can be a good way to explore what you want to do.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe instead of like say a university degree, uh, where you sort of like have a student loan, which can of course quite cost quite a bit, um, and also getting to make a real impact um on something real, if that if that makes sense.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not just working on a program or piece of software that I'm making myself anymore, but actually being able to contribute to something that's used by people across the UK and other areas as well.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that was my main motivation for doing an apprenticeship.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Could you just give us a bit more detail then on what you actually do day to day?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because that sounds fascinating.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I am a software engineer, so I suppose when you think of what a software engineer does, one might primarily think that I do coding.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, that is a good part of my job, but there's actually so much more to it than that, um, which is something that personally I didn't really realise when I was in school or college, because you have things like testing and of course all semacer testing as well, which is a little bit of code as well, so that makes it very fun to refer.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sort of like prioritizing work, um, and so well, basically like collaboration with other people and like not just in a code way, like just planning projects.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: As a software engineer or developer, I'm doing all sorts of things, and in terms of the platform that um I effectively contribute to, it's an education um technology platform or ed tech for short that is used by universities across the UK and other areas of the world to essentially like sort of make the most of their time at university and um sort of evidence what they're learning to sort of like help them with their next stages, and that means a lot to me because I've always really enjoyed education, so being able to contribute to that space specifically in software engineering because I think that is a power of software engineering, you can sort of like contribute wherever you like, and for me, education is the sort of place that I want to contribute to.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds brilliant, so interesting, and even more interesting that this is an SME rather than a large company, because as Anna was alluding to earlier, it's so much easier to deliver an apprenticeship in a large company compared to a small company.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: What made you decide to pursue an opportunity at PebblePad?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Were you perhaps thinking about looking at apprenticeships with a larger company and decided on a smaller company, or did you know from the get-go you wanted to work for an SME?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: When I was in school and pretty much most of my time in college, um I had my eye on um a particular uh large tech company who had done um degree apprenticeships for many years, like I think since the early 2010, so they were quite well established.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And as you had work experience with them and went to Insight Events, and so yeah, I was almost like heart set on them going to them for a while.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um but part way through the application process with this larger company, I found Pebble Pad um because there was somebody in the year above me at college who went there, and when I was going through the application process for that, and originally thinking it was just going to be a backup option, it sort of changed into not my backup option because the sort of vibe that I got from the smaller company it was something that I really liked, and you know, even just the little things of when you're in the interview feeling really welcome, and some being understanding of the fact that I was going through the application process of this large company, and that said large company, like like many large companies, can take a while to communicate with you because they've got so many applicants.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Then being understanding like that really meant a lot to me.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's little things like that, and just the really good communication that Polpad had that sort of like helped to edge it a little bit more.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I also talked quite a bit to um an existing apprentice at Polpad as well as the larger company that I went for or was looking to go to.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And hearing their experience, like both of them sounded really good, so it was really hard to choose between the two.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I really like the idea of with PolePad or a smaller company generally, is that they can kind of tailor things a bit more to you because there's like not such a large cohort, and to me that felt like a really good way to sort of like start my career in in some way that's kind of tailored, in a sense, to my learning.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: And how has it been since then in terms of your actual apprenticeship?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Did you find that you were well supported throughout your journey there?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what kind of opportunities do you feel like you got in a smaller company that you might not necessarily have got have gotten if you had pursued that larger um company's apprenticeship?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've really enjoyed my time at Purple Pad, and I really don't regret my decision whatsoever.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've been able to work with various teams within the engineering department we have here, as well as like in the white with other people in the wider business for other things.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I've been able to work on like well-being initiatives and promoting the use of LinkedIn.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, like one thing that I was a little bit nervous about when it came to like doing like uh working in a smaller company compared to a larger one, was like what sort of opportunities you're gonna get in comparison.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, as I say, like it's sort of been quite mind-blowing and even better than I expected.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And personally, I think the opportunities that you can get with an apprenticeship, whether that be a smaller company or a larger company, I think that is a very underrated advantage, like of apprenticeships.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And overall, I'd say that my confidence has very much grown throughout my time in my apprenticeship and continuing on after that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: In I suppose you could say soft skills as well.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: For example, when I was in school and college doing a talk to people, that was just like as I'm sure a lot of people can relate to, it felt like such a daunting thing.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: But fast forward to a few years later, in 2022, I think, me and another apprentice did a um a talk at our customer event, which was to about over 100 people, and opportunities like that, I just really think wow, and I really wish I could sort of tell my young self about that because it's the sort of thing that I underestimated as I say.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I knew that I'd be able to grow my skills as a developer, but I suppose I didn't really realise just how much other growth you get to do as well, and also as well, there's so many opportunities that you can sort outside of that as well.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, say, with the association of apprentices, I've had opportunities from them before that have built my confidence, um, and have had the opportunity to meet other apprentices in small businesses as well.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, there's there's so much to offer, I think apprenticeships have.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or there's lots of things that apprenticeships offer, that makes more sense.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it's been really good.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoyed it very much.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's been fantastic, and you're such a great ambassador for all the benefits you can get from an apprenticeship.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're just so articulate and mature, and I think that's a real testament for how much you can grow through being an apprentice.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Anna, if I could turn back to you and ask, what's the main piece of advice that you'd give young people who might be considering an apprenticeship this week?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, can I cover a few?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think maybe not just one.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would start with exploring all of the options.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: So trying to set aside any preconceptions, let's say, about what level is going to be best for you, or the type of employer, or the size of employer, and to really get curious and try and see that as a great opportunity.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: You when you start looking at apprenticeships, you'll see job titles that you've got no idea what they are, and you'll see business names, and you won't have ever heard of them before, but it's worth just having.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Take a few seconds, just have a little look because you might be really surprised.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I think really important not just to look at um degree level apprenticeships, which are often kind of, you know, I suppose they they get a lot of focus, particularly through school and college.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's really important to look at all of the levels.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we've had some changes.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: We've got a new level now called foundation apprenticeships.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So things are changing all the time.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's worth just uh exploring your options.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: Then I think once you're ready to start applying, you've got to get prepared.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: And there are no limits to the number of apprenticeships that you can apply for, which on one hand is really exciting, but on the other hand, can bring quite a lot of admin that you've got to stay on top of.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, whilst it can be brilliant to apply for different apprenticeships with different businesses, and we would really advocate for that, you've got to get prepared and make sure that you've got some systems in place.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because once those employers start coming back to you asking for different bits of information or giving you different deadlines for times when you've got to complete forms or assessments, it can become quite a lot to manage.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: So get prepared, get systems in place.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think more crucial than anything is when you're submitting those applications, take time to get them right.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: So reach out to the people around you who can support you.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: That might be parents and carers, it could be teachers, careers advisors, it could be friends, siblings, whoever you've got in your kind of support network, ask them to help you, ask them to read through your applications, get them to help to proof it for spelling and grammar and just take time to get it right and make sure you're really personalising it for that employer.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, those would be some of my top tips.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's very helpful.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Anna.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and how about you, Krista?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Given all your experience now as an apprentice, what what piece of advice would you give?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, to be fair, I think Anna's given the most perfect answer.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I suppose I'll sort of like extend it a little bit, especially with say the being open-minded point, because when I'm thinking about my own experience, like I said before, um originally I had my heart set, if you like, on a large company, and then later on I switched to wanting to go to a smaller company, and that's something I'm really really glad I did because you know I'm somewhere where I'm really happy for your time in school or college, you might have set ideas on what you want to do, but it is worth having backup options, not just in case you don't get that sort of like original option you wanted, but also because you can find things that you like even more, um, and that's very much what happened with me.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, that that is something I sort of like expand upon there.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing I'd also say is that when you're doing that preparation that Anna referred to, one of the best places for me was Rate My Apprenticeship or Hire In as it's now called.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: It can really help to give you a better idea of what that apprenticeship is like and the sort of opportunities you can get.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I would 100% recommend looking to hire in.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And also reach out to Curran and Alumni apprentices because they can be really good to talk to about what their experience was, and it really helps to give an idea of what to expect from those application processes, like say the assessment centre or interviews and that sort of thing.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just day-to-day experience of what you'll get from the apprenticeship, even as a 16 or 17-year-old, create a LinkedIn profile and just get started with it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're showing that you are passionate about what you want to go into, that will really help you.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And just generally, as well, with application processes, do see it as an opportunity to show them how great you are.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: As I say, it's not about knowing everything, it's just showing yourself in the best way.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was just wondering how you're both celebrating this exciting week ahead.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Anna, starting with you.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: So loads going on.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: We also will be during National Apprenticeship Week starting to launch our small business summer campaign, which is where we are going to be um working with the Edge Foundation to release lots of resources for schools to utilize, building on the momentum of National Apprenticeship Week and to really get their students thinking about local opportunities to them and the local businesses.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, so yeah, look out for that uh during the week because there's lots that's going to be coming out.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: How about you, Krista?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: What are you doing this week?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose, firstly, this podcast, but also what I really enjoy doing um every year is just doing something on social media like um because it's just so nice to reflect on where I was six years ago when I was like applying for my apprenticeship and um actually starting my apprenticeship to where I am now, letting other people see that as well.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that is a really important thing.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's all from us today.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's all that's all we have time for, and thank you for listening to Insights from the Edge.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: We will be back soon to talk about some of our latest research.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: See you then.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast was produced by the Edge Foundation.