Latest / Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast / SBP 224: Interview - Good Work is a Habit, Not a Score. With Traci Alford

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SBP 224: Interview - Good Work is a Habit, Not a Score. With Traci Alford · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barber Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: In the framework, we have number one is dedicated to making sure you understand your business objectives and letting them to your marketing objectives.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_04: Number two is mining and insight, which is not a statement of fact.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: Number three, you know, execution, bringing that creative idea to life and executing it with excellence.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: The common factor we see across the world is that the individuals or the organizations that do that excel.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Sleeping Barbara Podcast, a place for business leaders to get the best and most credible information on marketing, strategy, and innovation.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Your hosts, Mark Binkley and Vasily Sturos, share their experiences as they gather insights from the world's leading experts.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Before we get into it, I have a small favorite ask.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead and leave us a short review.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us what you actually think of the show, who you'd like to hear from, or even a topic you've been wanting us to cover.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: We actually read these, and your feedback helps us decide who we're hunting down for the next episode.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Mark Binkley, joined as always by my good friend and co-host, Facility Suros, but you can call me.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hop in the chair and let's get started.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on with the show.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Tracy Alford is the global CEO of the Effies Worldwide, and we are thrilled to have you sitting with us today.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks for joining us, Tracy.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having me.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're the Cann Line Festival of Creativity.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: There's lots of things here, but a giant component of the festival is really about the impact and the effectiveness components.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Just out of curiosity, can you talk a little bit about your experience and interest in Cannes in general and the Effies type of awards that are being given out for effectiveness?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: So in terms of Cannes, I mean, CAN is really focused on its center of gravity is creativity.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: And the way at Effie we think about effectiveness is that creativity plays a significant role as part of that.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I think, you know, what's interesting as we move forward is, you know, that role of creativity, I think, is going to become more and more important because the differentiator around technology and how you use it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, I think I think it will be very interesting.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: But I think, you know, that this week really is about, you know, seeing great creative work, um, you know, being inspired, challenged to think differently, all the things that I think we often don't take enough time to do to sit back and enjoy and absorb, and then ultimately, you know, translate into the work, basically.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was just quickly like Effies touches 130 different countries.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_04: It does.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sitting on a mountain's probably like an understatement of like effectiveness data, which gives you a really unique vantage point.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: What have you seen from a lot of the um the data that you've come across on how marketers should be thinking in terms of applying a lot of this in their in their day-to-day?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I think if we start off, so we think about effectiveness through a lens of a framework.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: We definitely see it as a discipline.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just something that just, you know, rocks up and happens.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: Be very thoughtful about it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: So in the framework, we have number one is dedicated to making sure you understand your business objectives and letting them to your marketing objectives.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's number one.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: Number two is mining an insight, which is not a statement of fact, it's an insight, and that often gets lost.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, number three, you know, execution, bringing that creative idea to life and executing it with excellence.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: Number four is your results.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: Now, the common factor we see across the world is that the individuals or the organizations that do that excel.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: The ability to actually do all of them well is I think the unique factor around that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: And then there's other layers on top of that as well.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_04: Again, pillar number three is really about creative execution, is being brave, that concept of doing things slightly differently, um, standing out and challenging the category here, I think, is also something else that you know really differentiates a brand and an organization.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: There was when we were doing the preamble and chatting with you, one of the things I thought was really interesting you brought up was that it's not really even about the creative as much as or the technologies.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, those are components, but also like the people are a huge component of effectiveness.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about that too.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_04: I I I think people do get stuck in the mode.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's this, it's that, it's you know, it's metrics, for example.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_04: But the reality is, is it is about a discipline.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's a day-to-day discipline.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_04: And certainly from a leadership perspective, it's not just something that falls into your lap.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: You need to be very, very disciplined about it.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so the people aspect of it is bringing that to life.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: What does that really look like for you and for your organization?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, do you have the right structures in place?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have the right measurement tools in place?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: Are you allowing people to fail?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: Because a big part of effectiveness is it's circular.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: So you're not always going to get it right round one, but the more important aspect is the learning aspect of it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, we didn't get it right, so what can we do to refine it?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_04: Do we change what we're doing or basically modify it?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's this, you know, we think about it as a day-to-day orientation.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's not something that's a one-off, which I think when people think of effectiveness, it's like, okay, got a metric, got a number, boom.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that simple.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Which is part of the bravery part, I would imagine.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have to be willing to put yourself out there as opposed to taking the safe route all the time and just benchmarking to the F.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I think well, I think again, I think it's about being thoughtful about that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because what we see in our data points often is is you can't be a little bit brave.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: Stick to your knitting and do it really well, you'll you'll do great.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: Be outrageously brave and take a massive risk.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_04: There's huge upside.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: You hover in the middle, not so good.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I think, you know, again, it's just sort of being really thoughtful, again, being linked back to the ecosystem and the discipline that's associated with effectiveness.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to double-click on that just a little bit, because we've talked to Karen Pierce on, you know, uh the idea of taking risks.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you should never really take risks that you don't feel comfortable in.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you're using the term brave, which is I think is an interesting one.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask do is brave the same thing as taking risks?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or is brave being really thoughtful in that in that curve that you were just talking about, that you're being mindful and not going to the extremes?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I I think risk is a different concept to bravery.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think risk in it sometimes means that you haven't thought about your headwinds or your tailwinds.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas bravery, you're making a calculated, thoughtful choice.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I can give you an example of that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: So Timby, who is a streaming organization, when they first launched, they were not known.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: And basically they collect all the old shows, like you know, friends and digital.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's quite random.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: And they basically, their film that they took to the Super Bowl was basically throwing rabbits down a hole because when you sit and watch that kind of TV, that's the choice you're sort of making.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I can't even imagine rocking up to a CEO and going, Oh, by the way, I want you to invest in the Super Bowl, I want you to trust me that like having rabbits in suits and throwing humans down a hole work against a Netflix or a Hulu.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_04: And it did.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_04: But if you listen to the CMO and the agency when they talk about this, they're really crystal clear that that was the choice that they made, and they made the choice because it was the only way they had the potential to crack and break into that market.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a calculated again, it's thoughtful.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that doesn't also mean it's always going to be the right thing.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: But but you've thought about it.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's not like you've sort of fallen into it.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Given the scope of the global entries that you're seeing, are there certain uh countries maybe that are consistently braver than others?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Have they figured out some kind of special sauce, or is it just it can really come from anywhere?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: I I think it can come from anywhere.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think it's a cultural thing.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think there are different things we see around the world, and I think some of that is part driven by legal systems, for example.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: So if I look at a place like China, huge and very innovative things that they do.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_04: But because their legal system allows the openness of data for everyone, really, their ability to do that is slightly different if you were to look at a European market where the legal constraints that sit around data are significantly different.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: So I do think no.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: I think it I see individual organizations, individuals, brands around the world who um you know, I think anyone anyone can do it.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: There are nuances, there are cultural nuances that you need to know.
• 9:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you said it's not about that, it's about the people.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you mind expanding on that a little bit?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so when it's it's like anything, when people talk about change management, they often talk about a system.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: So they say, We've you've got to have the system in place and you know, all the text there and all that sort of thing.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: But it's not that, it's the humans that bring that to life.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: So they need to understand it.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: I think they need to know why it's set up the way it is.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think one aspect that people often forget is also if you're going to be affected, you need to have that effective relationship external to your organization.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: So we easily about your AT partners, your partners everywhere that you can partner with, deliver, they need to also be brought into the ecosystem.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I see some exceptional organizations where they treat their partnerships as part of their team.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um so again, going back to not a scapegoat.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: No, that's exactly right.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, when when something doesn't work, one team, you know, we're in this together.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_04: What what do we do?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: We won, this was an amazing result, let's celebrate together.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I think you know, the humanity side, you know, we talk about effectiveness being messy, it's not a straight line.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I think as a leader, you've got to be able to encourage your team to think about it like that.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: The structured discipline around how we're going to measure that is important.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: And also how do we learn?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: We learn and then openness to learn and the openness to, you know, include everyone in their ecosystem to help you benefit.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because everyone thinks differently, and I think that's that's also quite lovely, is that you maximize everyone's different skills and bring that together.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like a there's something from I think it might have been Andrew Tyndall's report with the Effies in System One, but they're talking about the relationship of agencies, the longer that lasts, typically the more effective the work is.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's interesting that you're bringing up the agency relationship too, because you get to a point where there you're so much busy work and then you kind of forget that sometimes you have to like root yourself in something.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: And like, yeah, we also need to do this business thing and not just make more content for the sake of making more content.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of wonder from your end, if you've seen like what are the if you're not turning your agency into a scapegoat, like what are some of the fundamentals?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it just the same fundamentals are shared across the agency and the company to help build that relationship so that you have stronger, better, more effective work done over years instead of just a week or two?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I think it's a little bit like you know, it's like a sporting analogy.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: You're sitting in a rowing boat and you all know what you need to do and how you're gonna get there, and what your choices are to get there, your likelihood of getting there is significantly higher if you put five people, four people rather, in a boat and they're all doing different things.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I do think this collaboration piece, which is the humanity piece, I think is is really interesting.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: The piece we did do this work with System One, but I know for a fact we did this piece of analysis um a couple of years ago where we asked some of our contributors to look at the last 10 years and they did all sorts of things.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: They looked at their share price, and I can say consistently across the board, the top 10 brands around the world all had significant and sustainable relationships with their agency.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_04: Because you know, they're part of your team.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it grows over time, and you know, and that can agency can be external, in-house, it doesn't matter.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: Again, it's this I'm a huge believer in you know, the more people you bring into your ecosystem, but you're all pointing in the same direction.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_04: As I said, dynamics, different skill sets, it's very powerful, it's really powerful.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Even uh thinking about measurement and sort of the path down measurement leads you to often ROI, and then it's short-term campaigns because you're looking at a campaign now as being six, eight weeks kind of thing, maybe.
• 13:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then you don't really have the long-term impact measurement like uh a market share number or market penetration number.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've I've seen in our our like in our shared experience that these the relationships often are that scapegoat kind of like they're there for long enough to do great work, but it's only like uh measured by campaign by campaign basis.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't know that you ever really get to that, in my experience, that great partnership, because there's almost always an opposition, adversarial relationship in in the experiences I've had.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, there's definitely there's definitely tension between short-term and long-term.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's real.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, a tenure of a CMO is on average three, four years.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's no different to a CEO.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_04: So there's definitely tension to deliver short term.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_04: Really outstanding CMOs do both.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: And they and they manage to do both.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: And again, I think it's if you go back to the discipline part, you sit back and you think, what do I need to achieve short term and long term?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: And making sure that you are able to balance.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, and generally that's a budget balance between what do I need to do to deliver, you know, my deliverables, but build that over time.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_04: And there are some emotion that can do both of that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not saying that's easy.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean statistically, no.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_04: Long-term brand building always helps your short term, short-term focus does not always help your brand building.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: You need you need to be able to strategically manage both.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not, as I said, I'm not saying that's easy, but we do see some brands that do that exceptionally well.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: The the hardest thing, I think, I know we're all like operating and living in some of these harder economic times where they're at least from a marketing perspective, we've seen a regression from investment, AMP is coming down harder than to then naturally organizations go down that short-term route.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because they think that's what's going to help them today.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, many marketers, and I'm not saying this as if like no one talks about it, they knew the importance of brand building.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say to those that are struggling to land that message internally where it's like you're not generating, you're not helping us generate future demand or capitalizing what was already built historically.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, this erodes.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: How can we better get that message across to some executives that may not be thinking that way and are just managing that bottom line because they need to operationally?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I think I mean some of this is stakeholder management, but how do you manage internally?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_04: So I think you know, a number of things.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: The successful organizations that we see definitely have great relationships with their with their team, so CFOs, but also there's a shared accountability.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Often what happens is that sometimes marketing gets a little pushed off to the side, and it's like that's your responsibility.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: Well, actually, no, it's all our responsibility.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody's responsibility.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: And so again, when I think about organizations that do this really very well, is that some of the metrics, your key metrics, for example, brand affinity is shared across the total C-suite, right?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just owned by an individual.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: Just like everyone's accountable for revenue, there wouldn't be some anyone on a board who's not accountable for revenue.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: Therefore, you spread that.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: And when you come to discussions around should the budget go up or down, it comes a discussion for everybody, not just an individual.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's really, really very smart.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: That is smart, actually, yeah.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: On the stakeholder management side, I would love to dig into that with you a little bit because I I find that fascinating.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: The relationship between not only the CFO and the CMO now, but also like the CTO has a big role.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And also everybody in general just seems to feel like they have a handle on how advertising works, so then they all have opinions about it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone's got a voice in it, which is I think in the a little bit different than say finance, where the finance department clearly is the finance department and nobody really tells them how to do their job.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: You need to be spending money somewhere else.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I'd love like to have an opinion.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a like an effect, maybe it is just that they have a shared KPI across the top, but it there isn't a stakeholder management component to effectiveness, I think.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: It definitely is.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: There's definitely a massive stakeholder management piece for sure.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're listening and thinking your brand could benefit from reaching our audience, let's talk.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is year five, and we're looking for partners who want to connect with senior marketers across North America, the UK, and Australia.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's lots of integration options that can range from post-red inserts like this one to in-person features at events like the Canned Lions.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Connect with VRI on LinkedIn and let us know you're interested in exploring what a partnership could look like.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: All right, back to the conversation.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: So when I think of finance, you know, they have the beauty of metrics that have been in place for like centuries.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_04: And as a result, and it's common and it's global and everyone understands it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_04: I think marketeers also have that opportunity as well.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: And again, if you go back to the point around it's an everyday orientation, it's a discipline.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: The more you talk about that, so like our entry form for our wards, which we um are known for, I mean, for me, yes, is it an awards entry?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: But it basically it's a business case.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right, sure.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's you you're asking to submit a business case.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: Correct.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: So it's that discipline around, you know, just getting into that discipline, educating the organization outside of the marketing team.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I also think marketeers fall into a little bit of a trap that we start to talk our own language, and that becomes confusing.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: So, like when you start to rattle off a load of acronyms, don't do it to yourself.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: But then, you know, you need to translate that into if you think about stakeholder management, just like you would think about marketing, in that they are your customers, you need to put in a language they understand, something that they're gonna receive well.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: And so you can deliver your message in a really short period of time.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: So if you think about your board or your organization in that way, I think our ability to deliver things would be significantly higher.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: We were shirts last year saying I'm with Bofu, and he's he had no saying I'm with Tofu, but jokingly because they're just like they're when you say it out loud into a group of people that aren't markers, they're kind of silly words, but we yeah, we don't even realize it in some ways.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: It's jargon in some instances, and I think you know, it is there's something we need to move from, and and it's important because what we talk about is the way we think about it and all that sort of thing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think if you think about it from a target audience perspective, if we want to land something, yeah, we need to translate it.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Or we need to educate them on the things that we're saying and why they matter.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: And you make a choice because all organizations have slightly different cultures and understandings.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think, you know, if you go into a fast-moving consumer good organization, marketing's much more embedded.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_04: Often senior management has touched it at one point in time.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: So your ability to talk to them is very different if you go into an oil business, for example, where they're engineers.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: Sort of you've got to cater to the organization in which you're doing your job.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: One thing Mark and I constantly talk about, because we we see it in our in our day-to-day.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I work for a large organization, telco in Canada.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And because of the podcast, we we get access to a lot of inf great information, great research, and we spend time with it.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's come somewhat commonplace for us to immerse ourselves in this.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime I either take it back to my my workspace or things like that, or sometimes I'll cite someone, an author, which I believe in our world is like we should be listening to what they have to say, finding like a lot of the even some of the basic marketing effectiveness principles aren't widely understood or known.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say to those organizations that are potentially struggling and really embedding these core principles that can actually make their jobs easier instead of relying on subjective point of views?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Where then I think that's where the biggest problem with marketing is is you let uh you allow anyone to come in with an opinion and make a decision where there's research to say, no, we have to go this way, because this will.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: lead to this outcome because it's a repeatable framework or not.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I think, you know, in that instance, I found if you strip away the emotion and as much as you can stick to the facts.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that helps strip away.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: Because a lot of people as you've you guys have always said, a lot of people have a lot of opinions on what works and what doesn't work.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think, you know, just stripping that away, I think is is really, really key.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: And that repetition piece around a framework is really helpful.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: Because at some point people go, oh okay, this is this is why.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's it's a vernacular that people get used to.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's a structure that people go okay, all right, this is why.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's again going back to my point, it's like, you know, it's a system, it's a discipline and it's it's a lot of repetition.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_04: And being honest, you know, this worked.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: This did not, we're going to modify it.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Can you had four elements of that discipline?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Can we just go through those again?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: So number one is understanding your business objectives, linking it to your marketing objectives by solving a business challenge.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_04: Number one.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: Number two is a strategic insight leading to an idea.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: So again, very big point here insight, not a statement of fact.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: I often look at work and I just think you're stating facts that's not insightful.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_04: Number three is bringing your creative idea to life.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the execution.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: And number four is the results of all the way through and then sitting back and going, what can we learn?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_04: Now and that sounds like that's a really long process it's not like that could be happening in a minute like in terms of if you've got a piece of content out there and you're either refining the copy or where it's landing, et cetera So you know, again it's circular and as I said, you know, effectiveness is messy.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_04: It's like you know it's like you know you take it that can be very long term but it also can be very immediate.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: The the four step discipline is not it doesn't sound foreign like it it it's not really odd in in any way.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I hear that and I go, yeah, that makes strength for it.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's the way that you do it maybe that is the difference.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I feel like a lot of times it's scattered that maybe you get to a business problem but you don't always necessarily understand the business problem correctly.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think people start from it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think I think sometimes people are solving things that they're not actually they should be really solving.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's spending that time up front cannot be underestimated and the amount of time you know people go, oh I've got an idea and they back yeah you know so I think I think that's that's really important.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_04: And the other thing which we see is going back to the the four pillars is we see people excel at one or two.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: It is very rare that we see people excel at all of them.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: That's one and then have the capacity to tell a story that links all of that together which is the stakeholder management piece.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_04: Which is your beautifully written and articulated business case about why this is worth investing and why this worked.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: The insight part two I feel like it it's not always um done very well like I think sometimes they go oh it's really hard to get to a a core truth or however you want to phrase that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of times we go oh like they want to buy more stuff.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's the insight maybe not because it's so it's so accessible to do that.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then they blur that with a business objective and then we're good.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then they just move on let's make more creative buy more now and then it leads down this path of them we'll just make it as as I said that's a statement of fact it's not an insight yeah so how do you But people people do do that and I do think it's a rare skill.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's you know I think of if you can if you have a truly amazing insight it will be global.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so I can think of you know MasterCard would be one Dove is another Apple is another like you think of everything that led them to what they are everyone around the world despite language barriers, cultural differences, people get it.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it but it's what's weird about that though too is then sorry the I just like it's a Mark show today.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: I just but I think even in that one is like you have so many people looking at one-on-one marketing and then you get to a point where it's not about the global truth it's just about oh I can do something for that specific person and then that specific person wants something different.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then you almost get kind of blinded by the trees not this and not see the force.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: And not every brand's global I just pointed that out a real genuine insight should be able to translate across anything.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well it's funny because like what Mark brings up though is an interesting point this overpromise from digital right and I I go on the podcast and I always talk about I'm a reformed performance marketer, right?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen the light.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what's interesting is like we've trained a lot of individuals to say we can be we can pinpoint more traces we can pinpoint more marks that show a specific buying behavior which is really no longer true.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: We we actually can't do that anymore.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we're trying to move back to like reach based tactics.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: The business however is like hey I'm gonna send you a CRM list I want you to use that CRM I just want you to target them in the open web as well.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're like actually we shouldn't be doing that at all like 955 rule like there's all these other frameworks we should be thinking about have has digital done a disservice to our discipline when the promise was that personalization, customization message to the right person the right time when in fact you were erosion you were eroding mental availability because you were just targeting a subset of consumers that were likely inclined to already purchase with you.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah I think I think the answer that is yes and no so I think yes in the way that we've trained a certain type of behavior but I think if you step back technology is going to do whatever technology is going to do.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: So for me I think it comes back to leadership so if you are leading a team you still have to have the ability to be strategic plus tactical and I think what we certainly what we're seeing is that we've got a whole generation of individuals who are probably slightly more tactical than strategic.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: So that ability to look across horizontally and not just vertically because that's what digital is it's very very targeted it's very very narrow um it's very very specific but that ability as a leader to step back and go, actually we need to we've got a full story we need to tell here what you've just said that may be part of it but it can never be all of it.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: Otherwise that's a very short term rodeo.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so again going back to that framework I keep thinking that a lot of times it was V was just saying like the technology is the thing that gets in the way it almost blinds you because you go, oh I can do this cool thing and it's not that insight either that the technology allows you to do something neat.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: But again I think then then the then the leadership needs to step in.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Whoever's leading the organization needs to have the capacity to go this piece of new tech it's fantastic.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_04: Let's test it or you know we need to or who else has used it and let's see how that fits in the best fits for us and what we need to achieve.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: By your own read this year I wanted to kind of get into creative uh a little bit you mentioned that the Super Bowl you saw large regression or retreat if you will and really maybe brave work is probably the the the bit the better word or a little more risk averse.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that after so again there's so much literature like how do you tie things like emotion to your creative that actually resonates that you're seeing the adverse happening and something like the Super Bowl which is you know the pinnacle of advertising in North America that we're not seeing those boundaries constantly being pushed.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: I think you know when you think about marketing and what we do is we're very very strongly linked to culture.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yes and I think there's been a risk retreat everywhere not just um your reference to the US but I think absolutely everywhere.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think it's it's just that alignment with culture we saw it after COVID.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_04: If you if you go back and take a look at the type of work that was being delivered it's a very different type of work.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: In these unprecedented times.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly mellow and then all of a sudden like we're out of it and everything was very humor and like so I just think you know there's often times and places.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's it's it is strongly linked to culture.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: For for you and and having the the view that you have of of Effie's uh and effectiveness in general.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say are like some of the I know there's the fundamentals we're talking about but the things that people if they just do this one thing that would be like a stepping stone towards like a better greatness.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_04: One thing that's tough.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well or a handful of things but yeah just do this.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like that you would I do I do think if you're leading an organization j I would be stepping back and saying you know are we set up for success in terms of effectiveness?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_04: What do I need to change?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: My whole organization needs to believe in this and set the systems up but also the culture where I you know and again in a risk adverse environment you know that ability to fail and that doesn't need to be big it it it can be small.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think you know and this this I think it's a mindset on and we say you know does does the work work that whatever we do is not a nice to have it needs to be a must.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_04: And so therefore if it's just a piece of creative for creative sake then it's art.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's not business.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think people which we talked about only think of business as ROI but there's many steps to get an ROI.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that knowledge that understanding and I just think you know curiosity being brave but I do think constant knowledge and building and building and and changing culture changes tools we have change all the time therefore you know flexing your organization to adapt is also key.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah another thing we've talked about technology on a few di different moments here and what's interesting about technology is it's been meant to kind of help us do more.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: But on the flip side there's a capital tied to a lot of the technology that many of these organizations leverage as well which reduces things like media facing dollars.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: In your experience have you and I don't maybe I don't know how to ask this the right way I just find like there's so much tech debt that no one's taking a hard look at it that those funds could potentially be repurposed into creating more better ads, more creative ads, more media and market.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: How is that balance struck in an organization?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: So I think again, I think that's a massive stakeholder management piece in that I think if people have faith that you have the skill to grow your ability to combat that you again you've got to have it set up over a period of time because if you don't then you don't have a factual structural argument to go and say you gave me this I invested and look what I have done.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_04: I've grown our share I've grown a piece of the pie la la la la la whatever your objectives might be but I think again I think also what you're talking about there is also financial literacy it's it's absolutely really key because I don't I don't think people often think about it quite in a holistic way like that.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's and the only reason why I think I bring it up because it's something that I'm living personally right and it's it's one of those things where when you're talking about stakeholder management and making sure everyone's aligned this is where alignment really matters.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because it could be very easy the CTO here to be like hey I saw a great um great new solution I want to implement he can just go ahead and potentially do that he or she versus the impact that it's having organizationally on the total investment profile that is available could impact in downstream something like a a campaign that's now one million which could have been five million dollars that could have helped grow things like share would have grown things like that effect.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I think again when it comes down to that stakeholder management making sure everyone's aligned on on these goals instead of marketing that's been pushing the border impact and also the opportunity costs because what you're talking about in this instance could be a system but also again going back to the people element that's time and resource.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: That's new knowledge.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not the simple cash it's it's it's actually more complex than that.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because we just talked about a little bit before there's a lot of people that don't know most of the effect not even most just a lot of the terminology and like the principles of effectiveness.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: So then you're put with a situation where you go okay well we can get this technology for four million dollars or we can buy four million extra media and then a lot of times because the technology sounds great you make a decision on that and not because you don't have the understanding of the effectiveness principles you don't think about the investment into say media or creative as a good investment because it's you don't really understand it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I again I think that's a leadership thing.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: Again being financially literate I think if you have the system set up your ability to have a very strong factual argument against that becomes significantly easier because you can say and I I see CMOs that do this all the time and they can now step back you know three years in and say well this is the history you know I invested in this you were not so sure about this look at look at what's this has achieved so yeah it can be done but it's a discipline.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the d I think the discipline also for me I'm realizing it's it's at the executive table as much as it is within the the the the agency and your marketing team relationship.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah definitely so if there's a marketer attending Cannes what's that one thing they need to be walking away with especially if they're leading teams that they can look to potentially implement as they head back home?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: So Cannes I think you know we come here to be inspired.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_04: What I would be doing and which I am doing is taking a look at as many things as I can possibly see and seeing how they can be reapplied because you know we're human like so that concept of innovation is so key and there might be someone doing something exceptionally well it's like oh can I reapply that I think that's what I you come here to to be inspired to be challenged to help you you know do what you do better.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's what I mean.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's like see as many different talks um engage with as many people as you can I think this I think the second thing is the people element.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think what happens here is so important for our community because at the end of the day despite all the talk about technology we are a people business and it's the humanity that brings things to life that makes things effective and I think that networking aspect and meeting new people and talking about things that you may not have about etc is also a really important element as well.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's been great to meet with you.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's fantastic yes before you skip on to the next episode we'd love for you to take a couple seconds and leave us a review.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Your feedback really makes a difference to us and helps us improve the show.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for keeping us in your ears and stay sharp everyone