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Mishlei 25:20 - Is Music an Effective Remedy? (Part 2) · The Mishlei Podcast

0:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we are on day two of Michelle 2520.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I found a couple more translations since yesterday.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: So let's we'll review our translations, but I'm gonna insert the uh the new ones.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, Ma'ade Beged Biom Kara Chumit al Naser the Shar Bashirim al Levra.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: So we translated it as like removing a so this is the okay, there's just to clarify this there's there's the first third of the puzzle is ambiguous, the second because of the word, second clause in the puzzwick is ambiguous because of the substance.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: All right, and then the third one seems like everyone uh agrees with.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: So one way to say it is ma'ade begged, and ma'ade is being used as a verb, so just like like removing a garment, okay, or ma'ade is a an adjective, um, like an ornamental garment, okay.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Or, and then here's the new one, which um I first saw in Rashi.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Rashi says, Oh, one second here.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so this is the same uh meaning as remove.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: He says, Ma'ade began biomkara, come beged idim.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's interesting.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: He says beged idim, begin musar, a removed beged, sho roy la ha siro me al haadam lafishu balui, um, that it's proper to remove from a person because it's worn out.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so in other words, he learns it as removed, not because you are removing the garment, but because uh it's like you should remove it because it's not doing anything.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: So a um a worn out uh garment, okay, on a cold day.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: And like al-Naser.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we had, so it seems like most of the mafarshim say it means vinegar on natron.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: And vinegar is uh you know an acidic substance, and natron is a um a uh, I guess a basic uh substance.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
2:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's good chemistry, but uh it's uh it's used for um no, it's also salty, right?
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Salty.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Um so plame shot is uh natron is a type of like laundering uh agent.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Um and so some say that it's vinegar on natron.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: I saw this encouraging remark from Ibn Kaspi in his second commentary.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh so he gives his um his definitions of these two things, but then he says, um uh he's he's he uh he skips over uh nasir and then he says, uh says I don't know any sort of like intrinsic relationship of uh of Yachat of uh Khomita Nser.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh Mita Ki Neser Msupakat's Leno Mahu, because we don't know what what Nasir is.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: The Ichi and whatever it is, he neha mashab is there, and he goes on and gives another uh interpretation.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting, he like he, you know, we faced this problem a couple times initially where we don't know like the full factual implications or uh like uh cultural implications or connotations of the Pasuk.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: So we just try to do it anyway.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: That's the first time I've seen one of the Mufarshim like explicitly state, like, okay, I know what the first clause means, I know what the last clause means, and I have some intuitive sense of the second one, but I don't really know what it is.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna plow through and like try to like give an explanation.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not saying that you should do that, uh obviously, but like it's nice to see that uh one of the Mufarshim who I respect like does that because he also didn't know what what the the second clause meant.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, but what are you gonna do?
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Not learn the puzzle?
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: So our questions, oh sorry, and I didn't say the last one.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Visharsh Bashiram Allevra.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: So is one who sings songs on a bad heart or on a broken heart or on a sad heart.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, um we're gonna see in a little while.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Another one is a foolish heart.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, sorry, heart or mind.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: All right.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Um uh I don't think we uh we took that uh yesterday.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so our questions were going down.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay, what is the subject of this pasak?
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Right?
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Very unclear at the outset.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Um uh, you know, if you're gonna attach the subject to something, it would be the third clause because uh that's the uh you know, that seems to be the point.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: But uh, what is that?
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Two, what do each of the clauses mean?
4:31
SPEAKER_00: What is the physical action and effect that's happening in each?
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Three, what is the relationship between the two mashalim and the nimshal?
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if this is two mashalim, why is there no VAV connecting them?
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh, four, how many parties are involved in the mashal and the nimshal?
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Is it talking about a person taking off his own garment or, you know, I guess donning uh an ornamental garment on a cold day?
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Or is it talking about taking off or providing your friend's garment?
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Likewise, is this talking about the effects of a song on your own heart or on the heart of your fellow?
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Five, what does lave mean in this context?
5:06
SPEAKER_00: Is it heart or mind?
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Six, what is a lave raw?
5:08
SPEAKER_00: What does the raw mean in this context?
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Bad, broken, sad, um, foolish.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh, how objective is this quality?
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, seven, what is the Hava Mina here?
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, why would you think that these things are good, or at least the last thing is good?
5:21
SPEAKER_00: And eight, what's the practical application?
5:23
SPEAKER_00: So we had basically two approaches.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: All right.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: So one approach was uh Isaiah and um uh Ezra and Isaac, I guess.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: So we said that in the first um the first two clauses, so there is an actual thing happening.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: You are putting on a garment or you are like causing the sizzling sensation of the the um the the the uh homit on the on the neser, but it's not doing anything.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh oh wait, sorry, is this is this the one?
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, right, right.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: It's not doing anything.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: So wait, why did I say so to a song?
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Ken.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, maybe we okay, so maybe this was our first uh interpretation.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: So then I think we ended up going with the with the fact that that um it doesn't really work.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: In other words, you're producing, you're you're putting on a garment which looks like it's gonna make you warm, because that's what garments do, but if it's ornamental, then it's not really gonna work.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so too with the sizzling, it looks like it's doing something, but it really is not getting rid of the um of the uh of the stain.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: So the Havamina is that if a person is sad, then you can cure the sadness by singing songs uh which are external and superficial.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Or sorry, Kamash Milan, those are only external and superficial.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's not gonna help, and it might actually make it worse, either because the the fact that you're trying to do this with the sad your sad friend shows that you don't really understand them, and it's gonna create a sense of isolation and deepen the sadness.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, or if your friend is actually depressed, then then um then he's gonna feel like you're trying to like put a band-aid on it and it's not really gonna help.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: And that's gonna also cheapen or trivialize the suffering.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Isaac.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think for this approach, we were saying that it was that it was um taking off a garment on a cold day, not putting on an ornamental garment.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh, okay.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: It's actually making things worse.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh, right.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that putting on the garment though actually fits better with the um with the with the with the idea.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean putting on an ornamental garment.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh like it looks nice, but it's not doing anything, you know?
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's that's probably better.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: So let me just uh modification here.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: Modification is that uh putting on an ornamental garment.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Isaac.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on whether the shot is that it's doing nothing or if it's making things worse.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: But the the problem though is that that uh taking off a garment like I I don't think you like what's the Havamina that taking off a garment is gonna help on a cold day?
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we said the refreshing coolness, right?
8:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: But see, the thing is you don't want refreshing coolness on a cold day.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's I feel like it's just better if you if if we go with the putting on an ornamental garment, I think then that everything.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, so then we we did ask a question from the Ram Bum, which is aren't there cases where you can alleviate sadness or depression with music?
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, so Isaac, and then if so, then what's the difference between that and this?
8:24
SPEAKER_00: So um Isaac first answered that um there's a difference between when you administer it yourself versus when someone else does it.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't and I think we we didn't really like that so much.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: And then the second answer is that um it's being done in a jarring way, um in our case, but then the Rahman was talking about a more subtle way.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so hold on to that thought.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: We'll we'll see a side to go in in a second.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then we had Ezra's uh idea, which is that when someone is sad, then you might think that the solution is to lean into it, is to listen to music that reflects the mood.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, but Kamashwallah, just like taking off a garment on a cold day is gonna make it worse.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: And then this is Ibn Kaspi, something, something neutron and vinegar makes it worse.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: So too, leaning into sadness can uh can make things sadder.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: So then we asked a question from Pixar's Inside Out, which is that uh aren't there cases where like leaning into it does work and allowing yourself to feel it uh is the best approach?
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Um and so then we went back to the distinction between the um superficial approach, surface level versus the deep uh the deep-seated problem.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here's what I'd like to do.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think the the commentary that that uh closest is closest to both of our approaches is Sadigun.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Sadigun gives three interpretations uh in his Pirush, and they're very nice, they're all good.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: So let's read the first one, and then we'll do the second and third, even though they're kind of derek uh Nistar.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Sadigun says like this.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna put this front and center.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Milas Ma'adeh Mesalek.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: So he goes with the idea that uh Ma'ade means to remove, Kamo M'ha'ada melachin, like in Sever Danil, uh one who deposes king.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: Milosh and Natargo.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Ubal Halev Ra Hazah, this guy who has a uh a sad heart, Ano Bal Haatzus Hamaata is not talking about a minor sadness or a little sadness.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Because songs do remove that kind of sadness.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and by the way, I wanted to um actually deviate for one second here.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, could we just talk about how oh sorry, never mind.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Let me reread this and then we'll we'll uh talk about the psychology.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: This is talking about great sadness, uh excessive sadness, depression.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Shakvarhi giabalis, which has reached its like utmost extent.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: So songs will increase the sadness and the pain.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: If they uh come to him, the hiftiyuhu.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't know how to translate the hiftiyuhu.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know pesa with an iron is to appear, right?
10:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh, like Hofia Mehar Paran or uh the Fesa Pitom.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh so I don't know if the hiftihuhu, I don't know if it means if it catches him off guard, or if it's like Isaac said, that it's talking about like a sort of like a jarring thing, or if it's presented suddenly.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, Vyimsa Shekolam in the Urbo His Rakshus Rabbah.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: So then the uh the the sounds will uh will awaken an intense feeling.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: And they're not going to help him.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Just like removing a garment on a cold day will not make him hot.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: So that is like Isaac was saying for ours, El Yazikuhu, Keshose uh it'll um it'll harm him, Kishose Chomits im Nesser.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Like if you drink vinegar with neser.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so remember Sadigon held that the neser is a uh, or sorry, Kath held that Sadigon held that the neser seems to be uh a type of material that you make a cle out of.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: So he says if you put chomits in neser, shitoim chamitsus imbalihus muravin, uh, then you are drinking um so you're drinking chomits out of a neser.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: So you're you're you're drinking an acidic thing with saltiness mixed in.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let me just summarize what he's doing here.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you so um, because I think we have to work this through the mushroom.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: So Sadiun says, so first he translates the Pasuk as like removing a garment on a cold day, drinking, so he he he puts this into one mushroom, drinking vinegar out of sorry, I guess drinking, yeah, vinegar out of a let me hold on, drinking acidic vinegar out of uh or I guess sour, right?
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Drinking sour vinegar out of a uh salty vessel, okay, so is one who sings uh songs to a depressed heart.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: So he says this is not talking about um surface level sadness, which can be alleviated through music, uh, but a severe depression um for which the music oh sorry, for severe depression, okay.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: Um just like removing a uh a garment uh on a cold day does not provide warmth, but the opposite, and creates a uh uh an unpleasant experience like drinking um a salty acidic uh mixture from a natron uh vessel, so too the music will only increase the unpleasantness.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so then our question now is psychologically, um how does uh this work, right?
13:45
SPEAKER_00: How can music help alleviate minor sadness but in but but uh exacerbate um uh uh depression?
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just hear you.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if there's an audio setting.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: You are unmuted on Zoom.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Still can't hear you.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Alright, we'll come back.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh we'll come back to you.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh I want to read one thing.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: So we have partially answered this question already, but I I want to read um uh I I uh can we just think one more time?
14:30
SPEAKER_00: How does music help you when you're dealing with surface level um uh sadness?
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Like I think we we just like we briefly looked at that, but we didn't talk about it.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Melcha?
14:44
SPEAKER_04: Um I I think that maybe kind of even a little bit like therapy, that it can at least help uh name your feelings and uh describe what might be occurring in your in your head such that you know part of the pain may not be could be resulting from that you don't even know what you're feeling or if it's a good or bad or good or bad feeling.
15:08
SPEAKER_04: So by at least knowing that it exists and that uh or at least when someone else is talking about it, or and that they can name that feeling and categorize it, it helps alleviate that um unknowing tension, right?
15:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, right.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: You can resolve the the uh uh helplessness of being like subject to emotions that you don't understand.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
15:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean it kind of reminds me of a pain of uh, you know, like when you hurt your like I remember like I once hurt my like I once when I was like in third grade, like I jumped down like a large flight of stairs.
15:50
SPEAKER_04: And for like the next three days, like I was in pain, but I didn't know if like my foot was broken, so I was kind of long around with a limp.
16:00
SPEAKER_04: And a large part of my feeling was like on some level, yeah, I wish I did actually, I I wish I was in worse pain so I didn't have to go to school and I could just have a cast on and have like a label on it.
16:12
SPEAKER_04: You know, that's funny.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: So I hear that.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's interesting by the way, this raises an interesting question because up until this point, um, I think I imagined, I think maybe because my the most of the music I listened to, uh, or certainly like in my in my the first half of my life, um, had no lyrics.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: And so I was uh I was thinking more in terms of the the musicality itself, but I I do realize that people use music with lyrics to um to achieve this effect.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think like it's an interesting Venn diagram of music.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: So you have music and then poetry.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: So in the middle, you've got lyrics that are that are being amplified on a different dimension because of the musicality of it, and then you have like instrumental music, and then you have pure poetry.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think there is some help in the music itself, and then there's some help in the poetry itself, but the music puts them, uh the music with lyrics puts it together.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Isaiah Okay, can you hear me now?
17:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:07
SPEAKER_03: Okay, great.
17:08
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think I was thinking that the difference between the deep and surface level sadness is the difference between a mood versus like an actual emotion stemming from um some psychological force.
17:20
SPEAKER_03: Like people get into moods where they're they're just feeling more down or more up, and that and it doesn't necessarily come from some deeper either psychological cause or like some sara in their life.
17:33
SPEAKER_03: And that I think music is very effective at alleviating that kind of um experience.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: But other sadness if a sadness is coming from a cause that is anything deeper than that, then music doesn't remove the cause.
17:46
SPEAKER_03: So it remains good.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: That's I think that's probably the that that's that's a really good distinction.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, um, another one I saw which is interesting is I think was it Hoyle Moshe?
17:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh no, it wasn't Hoyle Moshe.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, this is it.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Imaniu Haromi.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: So he says, um uh Vizekia Nigun.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh so this is talking about um Yeah, so he he's talking about the good effect of of of of of songs.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: That he says of Hashara Bashim Allev Ra Yatzliah Pama Sehu.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: So he's saying it will succeed.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not doing this whole peerish here.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Um Kamof vahayab kinagin haminagin vatialavruch elokin, right?
18:55
SPEAKER_00: So we know that music can be used, uh, you know, the Renavim who use music to like get in the right mood.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: Um Vinagin Byado Vitovlach Vidome.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay, why?
19:09
SPEAKER_00: So song separates between a person and his thoughts, helps a person like like get a separation between himself and his thoughts.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: And it will not allow the um the thought to dwell, um uh sorry, not allow the nefesh to dwell on the thought.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: Um zesha nigun vishima hashir yismahu Yisamku uh nefesh, and it also make you happy.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: So the Immanuel Haromi um uh adds that um that uh music can be effective at separating between your soul and your thoughts.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I and it might be what Isaiah is saying, that like that sometimes, in other words, like this, you might not know whether your sadness is just a mood or whether it's stemming from something deep.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: If you succeed in using music and cheering yourself up, you you you become aware of the fact that like this is just a mood that I'm in, and it's not stemming from something in uh you know deep, and then that can alleviate you.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if it is ineffective, then it can make you realize, like, no, this is stemming from something deeper.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm projecting onto Emanuel Horomey because of what Isaiah said, but I think that's just an interesting notion here.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Um and I also don't know how Emmanuel Horome is using the word nephish in this context.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: I just thought it was an interesting uh turn of phrase.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, did we answer our question?
20:43
SPEAKER_00: I I guess uh just what to bring out one more point here.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: So I I'm asking how the same thing, it is interesting that the same thing can amplify uh or can can sorry, can remove or amplify the bad effect.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: So in Moshe's case, then it can alleviate it by helping you put it into words, or it can make the pain more keen by putting it into words, um, which uh which will deepen it.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Um and then with Isaiah Right, it's just two different effects.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, let's go on to the second interpretation here uh of Sadigon.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Um so this is getting a little bit into the Darth Nister, I think.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Actually, no, no, no, maybe not.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: All right, so he says like this the Fshar Od, Ki Levra Ah Sichhlus.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: So it's possible that um that Levra does not mean sadness, it means foolishness.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh I guess just like uh Chacham Lev is a wise person with a wise mind, and so Lev Tov would be a good mind, and Lev Ra is a bad mind.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Vlosakal ashir siklusum atta, not a fool whose foolishness is uh is uh just a little bit.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Kized divre hachma mushullim le shirim polling both.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: So this is not derek, uh maybe this is derek nesser, but it's he's saying that the um the words of Chachma are are uh sorry, the song is is uh is words of Chachmah.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: So words of Chachma will will have an effect on him.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about an extreme fool.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: Shdevrecha a ta hech hakacham luyfa'lu bov loyashpiwa.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: So if someone's The real fool, then the word your words as a chaim will not have uh uh an effect on him and will not influence him.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Just like if you remove a garment, it will not heat the person up.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: It'll increase for him foolishness like vinegar and uh in natron.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yomar Haim Rak Zeh Shir Hakma.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Um uh and so he's saying that this is the effect of Chachma.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: All right, so let's deal with this.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: This is Sadigo number one.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Sadigo number two is Sadio number two is um is uh bad heart equals foolish heart.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh you know, words of Chachma um can alleviate uh minor foolishness, but will not have any effect, uh any beneficial effect, beneficial effect on a on a severe fool, and it might even um uh make things worse.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so now the question is how, right?
23:30
SPEAKER_00: And this uh I mean he's not defining what an extreme fool is here, but but I think we'll have to like get at that.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Like at what point uh do words help a fool, and at what points do or do words um uh words make things worse.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Actually, sorry, one more thing.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: I actually want to read his third approach also because he comes back at the end and then gives a unifying theory for all of them.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the third approach is, and I also think his his second and third approaches are very similar.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So levra is also about heresy, okay?
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Vagam in kvanasa ala harashlan the mitvos.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about someone who's lax in mitvos, bloha avaryan, and not someone who is a transgressor.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: Someone who is extreme in his denial.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about like uh your um your beliefs or your internal rejection of uh of Torah, not your violation of Torah in action.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Loyo ilulo diverhimaminim, uh the words of believers will not benefit him.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: You're just gonna increase his uh khfira.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: As you know about Yahakim, so this is one of the evil kings, Shikashir Karu Lufano Megillah, when uh the Megillah of uh what we say is I think everyone, I think everyone says that this was like um the parts of Megillah's Echa that Yumiyahu wrote to try to persuade the king to like you know lead his kingdom in Shuva, Sarfa, he burnt it.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: The Al Tishala Zula so mean a Malachim al Kofrim.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why he says, Don't ask us about the the uh the worse, the other Malachim who are uh kofrim.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: I think he means people like Minasha and like the really, really bad ones.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: Ella, so now he goes back and you know uh yeah, he unifies the last two.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Ella itza all three of them.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Ella itza b'atsuv uvasakha uva kofer.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: What's the advice on someone who's sad, someone who's foolish, and someone who's a kofer?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: She is tadil harotaknam laha viram mimatavam laat laat that if you want to fix them, you should remove them from their situation very slowly, little by little.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: The whole chelak shows man, chelak minha vara, with a little bit of removal being done over time, until they transition out of it and are fixed.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let me let me summarize this also.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: So three is bad heart uh equals heretical heart.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, heretical heart.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he's saying, like if you try to persuade a disbeliever, um sorry, an extreme disbeliever, uh that will extreme disbeliever, uh that will only exacerbate if it is Khira.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Anyone know a statement of Khazal that says this explicitly?
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Like about an apicorus?
26:30
SPEAKER_00: So um I think people are aware of Dom Mashitashival Apicorus.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, um, you should know what to respond to a heretic.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I think people do not quote the second half of the statement because it's not in Pyrrhaka Avos, it's in the Gemara.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Um anyone know what I'm talking about?
26:49
SPEAKER_00: You should know what to respond to an opicorus.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: I think the Ramon quotes it.
26:57
SPEAKER_05: Is there a Gemara where like somebody like lied to an opicorus because he just wants to hear it from our someone?
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe there is.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's not what I was thinking of.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: So he says, so so the positive is if Damash you feel picorus, you should know what to answer to an opicorus.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: This is Ruby Alazar and Pirky Albos 214.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: So Ramam says like this.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Ma oh, that is not, I don't want the tefusan.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Wait, where's the oh here we go?
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh Umar, this is the Ramam.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Lamid Devaram Shitashi Baham El Alha Pikorsimina umos.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: You should learn what how to respond to non-Jewish heretics.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: And you should argue with them or debate them.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And you should respond to them if they uh I think here that means if they ask a kasha on you, if they raise uh if they're difficult for you.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: This is in Sanhedrin Lamanchazam base, Loshanu el apikorus goy.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: This only applies to a non-Jewish opicorus.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: Aval Yisrael, but to a Jewish opicorus, Khol Shaken Depakar.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: I think the R says Khoshkin de Pakar Tfe.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: Um just see if that's right.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: Um uh Tanan Hasam, Rabbi Elizer Omer, heavy shakul Torah, Vidam Mashotash of Apicorus.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Rabbi Elizer says, be diligent to learn Torah and know what to respond to an opicorus.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Um Rabiochan Loshan El Opichorus Goya about Apicorus Yistrael, Khoshkin de Pakartfe.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: He's gonna become even more of an apicorus, um, or he's gonna be more lawless.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, so Ramam explains Rotono Lomar Shuhu Yosef Zilzu Vliglug.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: He's gonna increase his degradation and his mockery.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, his degrad, yeah, degrading tour.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: You should not argue with him at all.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Because you cannot fix him.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: The inlo refuel klaw, and he has no, there's no cure.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh as it says, Mishle Kolba elo yeshuvan of Leisigu Orchoschaim.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh, anyone, uh all those who come to her will not um uh return and they will not uh attain the paths of life.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Umr.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so he's saying if you learn the uh uh the opinions of the Umusa Ulam in order to respond to them, be careful to not cling in your mind to them.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Vadaki Ashir Tabod Lefanov Yedats Funu Sacha, who omro Vdalifnimia Amal.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: You should know that God knows your internal thoughts.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: So uh no, you know, obviously, uh not obviously, I should say, um, there are different ways to interpret this statement.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think I would say that it does not mean don't talk to an opicorus as a Jew now.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think uh, you know, you have to figure out who's the equivalent of the Jew um who is unincurable in the Ram's time.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: How does that apply now when there are, let's say, like people who are like you know assimilated or Balichuva or whatever?
29:51
SPEAKER_00: All right.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, the point though is that there are cases in which Kochma will not help, but it's only going to make things worse.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh so then we have Saudi Gaun's um uh unifying approach, which is in all three cases, um the only solution, the only way to fix the problem is gradually over time.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and so the question is how uh how does that help?
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we're let's try to let's try to figure this out here.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: So we have um the so we we got the thing about about curing the depression.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, at least we got it from his earlier comments.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we said the uh over time, but then curing a a a severe case of foolishness is not gonna work immediately.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: You have to um do it gradually over time, and then same thing with uh heresy, which is is a kind of foolishness, uh, it has to be gradually over time.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: So the question is like, how does it exacerbate if you try doing it immediately?
30:51
SPEAKER_00: And then how does it uh uh how can you do it uh successfully over time?
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Any thoughts on any of this?
31:11
SPEAKER_05: Maybe um when it comes to like an intellectual mistake, no matter how big the mistake, if a person realizes he's wrong, then he'll be able to make a massive change in terms of like what he thinks to be true.
31:22
SPEAKER_05: However, in these cases, it seems like it's a case where there are very strong emotions pushing towards his foolishness or his Khira.
31:29
SPEAKER_05: And if it picks up on the fact that you're trying to fight it, it's gonna have major defense mechanisms.
31:34
SPEAKER_05: You have to slowly chip away without being like aggressive towards it so that way it doesn't like put up a defense and just sort of without realizing, he sort of slowly shifts.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: So if this were if this problem were purely intellectual, then um showing them the error of their thinking could have an instantaneously, I'll use a fancy word, salvific effect.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: I think that means like you uh it helps you.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why that word popped into my mind.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh but in most cases, the kfira uh is rooted in powerful emotions.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I don't think it's a unified emotional thing.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Like I think sometimes it is that they don't want to change their lifestyle, other times it is they have psychological resistance to the idea of God because they relate to God psychologically as an authority figure.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it could be many reasons here.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Um so so you know, cornering them, I'm gonna say cornering them by showing them that they're being uh illogical in their beliefs, and I'm I'm adding that to what you just said, and trying to change them will uh elicit um uh powerful resistance, and they'll they'll fight back uh and not not listen.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think that's a good uh a good um interpretation here.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Same thing with a foolish heart.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it depends on what kind of foolishness we're talking about, but I think if we're talking about mishlaik foolishness, which is gonna be rooted in like the emotions as well, um, then uh I think it'll be the same thing.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh hold on a second, I'm just gonna move this here.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Um have a different uh different idea?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: I think this is this is good, but uh so let's actually let's let's go then how can you change this slowly or what does that mean?
33:31
SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm trying to say that the basic idea is that you wanna basically you wanna sort of influence him without him realizing it.
33:39
SPEAKER_05: Once he realizes it, he's gonna be defenses.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so you want uh to in to influence him without him realizing it because uh because the the the defensiveness is why it fails.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: I have a different answer which I think addresses more the intellectual uh aspect of this Kfira, but I I have found that this works emotionally as well, is that um is that the way belief and heresy work is not based on like um like dogma, postulates, proofs, etc.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, like I I know people want to believe that, but like like it's really a different way of thinking, and you need to gradually initiate someone into a new way of thinking, uh, which takes time.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: In other words, uh, as an example of this, like I've had so many cases where where you know you have kids who are very anti-religious because the religion that they grew up with is either stupid or oppressive or um you know any other sort of like um like uh you know uh systemic corruption.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And I have to show them through example after example that the Judaism that I am teaching and practicing is not what they're used to.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: And um and that what I have to do is like they're gonna automatically intellectually and emotionally relate to any Torah in a certain way by assuming that it is part of the same thing that they were raised with.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: And what I have to show them is no, there's something else going on here, and that Torah does make sense and it is beneficial.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: And I have to build the awareness through countless examples that there's something, that there is something different here.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: In other words, I know I'm not putting it into clear words uh how this connects to the uh the universal principle here.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Give me one second here.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Like it's almost like a training or an initiation that like um like you you need to train them to think and feel differently about Torah.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: And the only way to do that is through many particulars.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And the only way to do that is over time.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Um uh so like as an example, like you know, I I find the best road in with students like this is Mishlay, because with Mishlay, and this is also uh this I think also like uh works with Ezra's approach, which is that with Mishle, you are learning Torah, but what you're doing is you're learning Torah that hasn't that in most cases has nothing to do with religiosity, you know.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: So you're showing them, first of all, that this could be beneficial to them, that Torah could be beneficial to them in their life that they care about.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: And you're also showing them through example what it means to analyze something.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: And you're training them in asking questions and seeking ideas and like, you know, uh uh demanding rigorous clarity.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: And over time, then they start to have different feelings towards Mishle and towards its value in their life through these examples, and then gradually you can begin to shift that to um to Torah.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'll give an example.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not gonna record this.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, so definitely checks out here.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay, um, so I think these are good ideas uh from Sadigon, and I'm sure we could go deeper.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: I do want to do one more, which is the Miri.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: Um uh I think I like something in the Mi'iri.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh he says, Okay, Made Begit Byom Kara.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh Neser hu min afar ma'avir kasim.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: So he he goes with Neser as natron, uh, which removes a stain.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: Behis arvo im mayim, behis rahhet tabegabo.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: So you mix the natron with water and then it removes the stain.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: So chhomits also remove some stains, right?
37:54
SPEAKER_00: That's the classic thing.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: If you get certain stains and use lemon juice, right?
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, or vinegar of all behis uh white vinegar, I think is what they say.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Of all behis arva chomit ima neser, but when you mix them together, ha chhomit memis ha neser um machlisho.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: So the chhomit uh dissolves the nesser and weakens it and neutralizes it, until it doesn't uh dissolve anything.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: So, like if we just pause there, I think that opens up an interesting way of looking at the posuk, which is that you have one effective substance and you have another effective substance, but when you mix them, it they negate each other.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: So just uh I think that even if we didn't read on, that would lend itself to certain um directions of thought.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: Umade et le shame.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: So mahdi is a noun according to him.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Bafelus ma'ane ma'ase ma'ade.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Um kumo uh shalovish beged uh sorry, uh beget idim.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: So I um he it says it's like a beget idim in Yeshayahu 645.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh I did look that up, but I forgot what it was.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Um Yeshayahu 645.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't know.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean I I bet that there are oops sorry, 64 or 5.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: I bet that there are uh there's machlokas here also.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Let's just see if what the English says.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Um a polluted garment.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Let's look at the Matsuon.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think I I I've seen people quote this here also.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Um all right, so let's just assume that it means worn out.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: So worn out garment is not going to make you warm.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Um uh yeah, uh kasim, shamelaklum, kin sharbishirm a lev.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Refelling word leaves nishbar.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: So this is a broken heart.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's not gonna uh singing in front of him is not gonna remove it at all.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: Now he says, there's no meaning in the nigla at all.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, of all banistar cara, lev ra hadoid lhamayas iskehazman.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: So he says lev ra is someone who is worried about um uh I think lamayas here is like home, like like clamoring after um iske has man, temporal matters.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: He removes uh uh sorry, he abandons uh learning Khachma.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, anyone who is drawn after prophet, uh like making money, loyal uh hadracha valimut achy aklif midosav.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: So he's not gonna uh learning uh and guidance is not gonna help him until he changes his midos.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: All of this is telling you not to become so steeped in in material lusts to the point where you can't exit, you can't depart from the key.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: But as long as you're in that conduct, learning is not gonna help you.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: As long as you're eating unhealthy foods, loyal ham harufu aimbah mir kakos, then uh medicinal stuff is not gonna help you.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: Now, I can't put two and two together here.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know how this um uh oh actually maybe that's interesting.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Huh?
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna I know we only have one minute.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna take a stab here.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: So um uh if you use maybe he's saying like this is if you use uh vinegar itself or natron itself, you can remove the stain, but if you put them together, it's not gonna work.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: So same thing.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: If you just try to succeed in business, then you're gonna succeed.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: And if you just try to see succeed in learning, you're gonna succeed.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: But if you put them together and you don't have the the the meetos, you haven't changed your values, then you're not gonna fully succeed in either one because your learning is gonna detract from your business because you're gonna be devoting time to learning.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: But your preoccupation with the learning, um, sorry, with the with the money making is gonna take away from your energy for learning.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: So you have to get your values in order and properly value each of them in order to succeed in both of them.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's the idea of the worn-out beggot on the uh on a cold day, which is that it's not gonna be effective, like yeah, I don't know how he's exactly putting this into the nim into the nimshaw, but like you can't just expect yourself to say, well, I go to a yeshiva that values getting a job and and making money, but also learning.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna try doing both of them.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're not solid in your in both values, they're gonna be counterproductive.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's what he's saying.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's more here, and he has a couple other approaches, but we don't have time today.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: So uh this is a very interesting, uh, interesting puzzle.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, I did not expect it to go so well, but we got some good ideas.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't have time to review.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: All right, have a good day, everyone.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: Till next time.
43:06
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.