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389. Poor Me Syndrome After Divorce: Why Does Letting Go Feel Like Letting Him Win? · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

0:00
SPEAKER_00: He gets the freedom, you get the bills, the responsibilities, and the healing work.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: And you're thinking, how the hell is this fair?
0:09
SPEAKER_00: It isn't.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: But now you're checking his life, replaying what he did, waiting for somebody to acknowledge what it cost you.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: That's where poor me syndrome can show up after divorce, even when you have real, legit reasons to be angry.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Here's the question: Does letting go feel like letting him get away with it?
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Today, Tiffany and I are telling the truth about how we got stuck in this exact spot, what our resentment was costing us, and how we began making a different choice without pretending what happened was okay.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a moment right after you got divorced when you thought he gets to just move on and I have to clean up this mess.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: What the F just happened?
1:31
SPEAKER_01: It was probably the moment when he told me that he bought a Ducati motorcycle.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, a bunch of the guys were overseas on deployment.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: They were getting ready to come home and they all bought Ducotis.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: And he had turned into a full-blown adrenaline junkie that would get on social media and post pictures of them doing wheelies and crazy shit.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: And he was hanging out in tattoo shops and he was dating and he had this crazy exciting life where he got to do whatever the fuck he wanted.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'm over here with a two-year-old trying to figure out how the fuck to pay my bills.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: That was the moment when I'm like, I got the shit out of the deal on this one.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty pretty dramatic.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Can I tell you mine?
2:09
SPEAKER_00: Can I go?
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I want to know.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay, mine was we had to meet at the bank to mutually sign to like take ourselves off of each other's bank accounts.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And I like get out of my car to walk into the bank.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: And I had just read an email from his new fiance.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Now he's a lawyer, mind you.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: I just read an email from his new fiance asking me to provide a copy of our uh marriage certificate so that she could use it to file for him to get an annulment because they wanted to get married in the Catholic Church.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: So so the lawyer's new fiance wanted me to pull the legal document so that she could file for him to get an annulment.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: And I walk into the bank and the two of them are sitting there together in the banker's office.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this is a joke, right?
3:21
SPEAKER_00: She's just she's just gonna move right into my own life.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna what?
3:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Well So there are many moments I think for both of us that felt incredibly unfair.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: What do you felt like felt most unfair for you?
3:47
SPEAKER_00: I felt like his reputation didn't match reality.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think that was a lot of it.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Like the amount of secrets I kept.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: Same.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: I think we both see each other in that way.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Because of his career, I had to be very, very careful around like I took a lot of bullets for sure.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until years later when people started to realize who he was and how he worked and how he moved.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: Like I kept all of that shit under wraps for a really long time.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: And even then people were like, well, why don't you say anything?
4:28
SPEAKER_01: What the fuck was the point?
4:30
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't gonna change anything.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: I think I did say things here or there.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: I I do think Well, did you like did you like venting about him to family members or friends?
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Or like did you?
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I still protected him at all costs, right?
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay because he was her dad.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: And I still felt like I had to.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: So I do think I tried to build my case in certain arenas, right?
5:00
SPEAKER_00: I think I tried to get people to, like, I did some trash talking, not in big forms.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: And actually today, I think I protect him more today on this podcast than I did back then.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: I think that's growth though, right?
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Because I was really stuck in resentment back then, like bitterness and resentment.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: I was stuck in that.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: And I can also see how that was the case with certain family members, also.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: So I think it was all woven together for me, you know?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: But what would you have desperately wanted someone to acknowledge for you in that moment, right?
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Like if you you've probably done this in IFS or doing parts work, right?
5:36
SPEAKER_00: But if you could go back to your 20-something self, like what would you have wanted to acknowledge to her?
5:40
SPEAKER_01: What would you have said that she was so fucking desperate to feel loved that she would have pretty much done anything to do it?
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Up to and including having an affair.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: To be loved, to feel loved, to feel like to feel something, correct.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: And I was willing to step so fucking far outside of myself against my moral compass, against everything.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Just to feel loved.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Just to feel something.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Something.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: God bless.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: So what did you do next?
6:14
SPEAKER_00: And did it give you relief or leave you feeling worse?
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Are you talking about the affair?
6:21
SPEAKER_00: Any of it after the divorce, right?
6:23
SPEAKER_00: After he bought the Ducati, and you know, you were holding it down with your two-year-old bebe.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was living two different lives, right?
6:33
SPEAKER_01: In homeopathy, we call it the anacardium complex.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, when I had my daughter, I was the corporate woman who was, you know, doing the nine to five, and I was, you know, bringing cookies to fucking daycare, and I was volunteering at all the things and doing all the things.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: But then there was a side of me when she wasn't there that was the 24-year-old party girl.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: And she was in the clubs every night and she was on Tinder like crazy, swiping right.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: And she was Yeah, maybe like living the way he was living, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Or pursuing some sort of freedom.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: That yes, you could.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: So there was a very like, I felt like I didn't really know who I was because part of me was this very put-together girl during the day.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: And then at night when I didn't have her, I was literally just lighting it all on fire.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Again, anything I could do to feel wanted, needed, anything, whether it was using alcohol, using men, like I did it all.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: What do you feel like back then?
7:33
SPEAKER_01: You were kind of like keeping the score around, right?
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: So my score keeping is often about my own need to feel safe via perfectionism.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: So I cope with shame.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: I cope with feeling like there is something wrong with me, like I am broken, like I am left, like I'm not worth it, like I don't matter to him.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Like I coped with all of that by trying to be perfect.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: And so that informed, like that totally drove what I did next because I then proceeded to engage in like 10 different healing strategies at once.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, from yoga to group therapy to like you name it, I did it all.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And I would like to say that that was driven by an urge to feel better.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: And it was, right?
8:32
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to feel better desperately.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: I hate I hate the way bitterness feels inside of me.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't figure out how to outrun bitterness.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: And so as much as I wanted it to help me feel better, I also know that part of a huge chunk of my healing journey was out of competition or scorekeeping.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Like that so that I could say I was doing it right.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: And he was doing the same stuff over and over again.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: So I do think it helped me in the end.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Like I think it worked.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm no longer bitter.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: I I think it worked, but I think the root of it actually came from like a score keeping.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: It's not fair.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna win kind of place.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: How about you?
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, as far as things that I was keeping score of is probably and it was so hard because I feel like him and I were on the same level, but I did my shit in the dark and he did his in the light.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
9:31
SPEAKER_01: Like all the women he dated, he brought around our daughter, like all of that shit that was going on that would show that he was unhealed, all of that behavior, people saw him for that.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Whereas my stuff happened at night, like I was a lady of the night.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Like I and so that's where I felt like the scorekeeping was as long as my reputation, as long as I came out looking better than he did, then I must be doing better.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Fair and relatable.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And do you think that most women relate to that?
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we see our exes looking happy or happier or freer, maybe freer.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Is that a better answer?
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Like we see our exes looking freer, and then we translate that to I've been forgotten, replaced, or left holding the bill.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And I do think we've often referred to it as he's happy and I am broken.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's he's free, right?
10:33
SPEAKER_00: And so does that mean that you and I were forgotten or replaced or left paying the bill?
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: And is that the thing that we're also feeling self-pity about?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Because we can't let ourselves be free in that way?
10:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Because we're held down by something, whether it's responsibility.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: So, like to the women out there who are empty nesters and might have had to go back to work, or now your retirement's fucked.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
10:59
SPEAKER_01: And now you've got to get back into it because you had a plan and now the plan's not going there.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And it's like the women who, you know, were supposed to be the stay-at-home moms like me, you know.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna have three babies and stay at home mom.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now I got to go to work, you know, for like shit pay.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And like I didn't have a lot of education back then.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and then it's it's also the women that didn't have the kids.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like, fuck, now I have to wait another how many years, and am I ever gonna have a baby now?
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Am I ever gonna have kids?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: I know.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And that that is a heartbreaker, right?
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Like it's we've worked with so many women who never had kids.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: We all three of those examples that you just gave, but especially like, am I ever gonna have kids?
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And like, wow, what a price to pay that is hard to reconcile.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think I resented him most in those moments for the freedom that he had because he lived a ways away, and so he couldn't be the full-time parent.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: But even so, like, I know a lot of women that feel the same way.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: It's like we just have to take on everything.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: And I have so many women tell me, well, I'm the full-time parent.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, dad just kind of swoops in and spends money in his weekends, they get to eat whatever they want, watch whatever they want.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: He's just the fun dad.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: And it sucks having to play both roles of nurture and disciplinarian.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: It made me really fucking resentful that I did not get an opportunity to be the type of mother that I truly wanted to be.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: I ended up being a great mother.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: I ended up figuring it the fuck out.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: But back then, I was bitter as fuck.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: I was angry.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: But did you ever feel like moving forward felt like letting him get away with it?
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Because I do see our women sometimes get stuck there.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Like if I let go, if I heal, if I recover, if I'm no longer resentful or bitter, it's like somehow letting him off the hook.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Did you ever feel like that?
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I did.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: I did.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: I felt like I had to punish him for a long time.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: In little digs, right?
12:48
SPEAKER_01: Like little ways.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I can even remember the one time it pissed me off so bad, but he had come over to the house because we eventually got to the place where we would do holidays together and things together with his wives.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: And I say wives plural because he got married multiple times after, right?
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: So, like these women would come in my house with their kids and I didn't give a shit anymore.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: But I remember one time I was really pissed because I had invited him over and I cooked.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: And he was sitting at the dinner table and he said, Of course, you'd fucking learn how to cook after we got divorced.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Like just little things like that.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: So we would try to get these digs in for each other.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: But he always had a way, I will say this, he always had a dynamic and a way of making me feel less than.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: And it took me years to be able to not feel less than around him.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Because it's like he he was somebody that I let in that was very vulnerable.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: And then in those moments, he would hit it in the jugular.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Like he would know exactly what to say to me that would seem normal to other people, but would just set me the fuck off.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: And it took us years to not do that to each other.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I did feel like if I could just show to him that I'm, you know, that I'm happy, that I'm this, that I'm that, if I could just lose enough weight, if I could just have my shit together, get a great pain job, all of that.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Then it's like all the surface stuff, like all the external stuff.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: If you could prove to him when you were fine.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, meanwhile, your nervous system is on fire.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:10
unknown: Yeah.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: And we talk about this a lot too, because the women that chose the divorce, and I don't know if you felt like this, but again, when we choose the divorce, I don't feel like I had a right to be sad or struggle.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Because my friends and my and my my family was like, but girl, you chose this.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is what you wanted.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: You walked away, you stepped out on the marriage, you did X, Y, Z.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: So how dare I have any sort of grief emotions or miss him?
14:36
SPEAKER_01: That was hard for me, I think.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Um and then we talk about this accepting support, right?
14:42
SPEAKER_01: Because it's like then especially we feel like we have to do everything on our own.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: So, do you feel like you struggled at any point to accept that support, right?
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Because it wasn't coming from this person you wanted it from.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't coming from him.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a part of us that still wanted support from him specifically.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: I we see so many women struggle with this.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: Like if it's not from him, it doesn't count, or if it's not from him, it doesn't stick, or it doesn't hit the same.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I I think I have a sort of unique perspective on that because for the most part, I would say no.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: I started calling in support from like every corner of the region because I had I had a chronic illness.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, I had the pet, like I felt overwhelmed, right?
15:30
SPEAKER_00: I was underwater with life and running my business and all the things, and I could not do it without support and I didn't have local family support.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So, no, I needed support, or I was gonna literally like croak splat, like not make it.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: But I do think that many women feel like if they don't know that he's still missing them, or if they can't like hook him back in some way that it causes us to feel worthless.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: So, my example of that was like my grandmother died shortly after we got divorced.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how I don't even remember the details of this anymore, but I remember seeing a piece of art that I then saw or like remembered that his uncle had on the wall or something.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: And I like texted him about the piece of art, like just to see if I could get the response, right?
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Just to see if that connection was still there, just to see if he would respond.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: And he did.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I'd be lying if I didn't feel better.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, like I was grieving my grandma, and yes, I still wanted this piece from him.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: So I was definitely willing to accept it from all sorts of places as well because I I needed help.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: But there's something about I think it's a repetition compulsion, right?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Like his approval, his validation means something different than everybody else's.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: And especially for women that don't get closure or who are with men who are like narcissistic types, right?
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Who can't ever admit accountability, you're never gonna get the apology, right?
17:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that, yeah, there was over the years, it got less and less the effects of it, but especially initially in the beginning, I got such a dopamine hit, such a high when he needed me for something.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's crazy because I actually thought about this a couple months ago, and I know I'd said this out loud to the team, but you know, I've had him blocked now for a couple of years where we haven't really spoken or had any sort of contact.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: And he's going through his fourth divorce.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: And it was crazy because I said, This is the first divorce that he's gone through that he has not or doesn't isn't able to reach out to me for support.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: I always supported him through his divorces.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Um so I was always a person who's reach out for this one.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: No.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: No.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he would have had to get creative to do so.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: He could have if he truly wanted to, you know, he could have gotten to me through our daughter.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: But I was gonna say, did he reach out to your daughter for support?
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Who do you think he's doing?
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes, oh he did.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: And so um now that she's an adult.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like one of those things where making sure that my daughter doesn't fall into the same trap that I did of being his support system.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I always felt bad for him because I didn't feel like he had that from his family either.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: So I always felt like I got he needed you trapped into being the one, correct?
18:19
SPEAKER_01: But that was also part of the appeal, the Bonnie and fucking Clyde dynamic.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many women feel like that, but it's like when you find a man that's broken.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, honey.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: Need to feel needed.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: You find a man that's broken and has nobody else but you, you can't be abandoned, right?
18:32
SPEAKER_01: Motherfucker, you can't walk out on me because you need me because you have nobody else.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: And that was the dynamic of our marriage for a really long time.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: It's so mother-son, though.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: It's disturbing.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: So when women like us rehearse the story, right?
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Of and then he, and then I, and then would you believe, right?
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Like when we retell the story over and over again, and maybe it sounds like I did that more than you did.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: I was hiding it.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: What's actually happening?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: I think we're continuing to want validation over and over and over.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like the more people we can get on our side to agree and see our side of it, it makes us right.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: It makes him wrong.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And then what does that do for our healing journey?
19:19
SPEAKER_01: It keeps us stuck because until you're willing to see your part in it, you're always going to be looping and stuck in the bitterness and the anger, right?
19:27
SPEAKER_00: And not feeling not just see my part, but like figure out why the heck I need his validation so much and not need it anymore.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's absolutely I have to get busy owning my part, A.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: But then B, it's like if I can't ever unhook the reason I need this person's validation of all people.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: Think about the things women spend their bitter energy on that they could be spending it on instead.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, um, it's like deciding what's next, right?
19:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like, when do you feel like you just wanted somebody to agree that your life was unfair?
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just want that because I I want to focus on that more than I want to decide what the hell to do next because I don't know what to do next.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: But do you find that women who are waiting for an apology or waiting for him to feel regret or waiting for him to have consequences, do you find that they mean to stay stuck like that?
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Or do you find do you think they realize it's costing them something, or do you think they just genuinely don't know how to unhook it?
20:31
SPEAKER_01: No.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that because when we say it in session, women look at us like we're crazy.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: When we say that there is a part of you that doesn't want to heal, there's a part of you that doesn't want to move forward through it because you're scared about what's on the other side.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: So it's like more than one thing can be true.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Like on the one side, part of me can see, yes, I am sabotaging myself.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: I can't figure out how to get unbitter.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: I can't figure out how to let go of this anger, resentment, revenge, right?
20:57
SPEAKER_00: But you're saying there's another part of that.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: That's actually afraid or hesitant to let it all go.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Cause then what does that mean about us, right?
21:08
SPEAKER_01: What does it mean about what we were willing to tolerate, the time we wasted, all these stories we tell ourselves about, but we stayed, but he could have got better.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: But I was in love with his potential.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Those are all traps that we just find ourselves in.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's like you're chasing a man who is never going to be able to give you what you're seeking ever.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: And so what's underneath all of that is how deeply held our insecurities are.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: And we just don't want to touch that.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's grief, right?
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's like for you, if you think about your story, it's like once you realized that you were never going to get that acknowledgement that you wanted from him or that validation, like what did you have to grieve under that?
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, what was hanging out there?
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think it went so much deeper than that, right?
21:52
SPEAKER_00: It was like there were so many things that I needed to grieve.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: So many things.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: And that was just The thing on top.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think that journey has been long.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, grief or letting go, it's like the idea of giving up or well now what?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Or so I then I have to figure this out for myself.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: It's an it's an immense amount of ownership of my own emotional, my own feelings, my own results.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: I like sticking around in their life and saying, like, these are my results.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: It's so much easier to say these are his results.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: I was the victim.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: He caused this.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: So for our mamas out there, they are co-parenting or single parenting, right?
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Time sharing, whatever it is.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And she really is carrying more responsibility.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And we're going to talk about the women who haven't had kids and we're going to talk about our empty nesters also, right?
23:40
SPEAKER_00: But for the woman who genuinely often has more responsibility, how do we help her without um making her feel like her own recovery is just like another responsibility she has to carry?
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Like just another assignment, another thing for her to feel like oh, yeah, just pile that on to.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: I think it's when we start getting really curious, right?
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Where when we shift from seeing it as a chore to something that we can get them into some curiosity around and understand that that curiosity is going to start unlocking capacity when they start separating themselves from the divorce, when they can start seeing themselves and him for everybody and what it is, and sort of step outside of the box a little bit.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: I think that that helps women sort of get there.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: I spent so much time, again, yes, comparing my weekends to his.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a three-day break.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: How can I go out and light the town on fire?
24:39
SPEAKER_01: How can I just get all of this out of me?
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, rather than actually spending time saying, Do I really want to do this?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, do I like this party lifestyle anymore?
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Do I like the swipe right Tinder?
24:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, am I enjoying going out and having random sex with strangers?
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Like I got to the point where I was like, wow, this is not serving me anymore.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would say like, so, but yeah, tell us a story though about for a woman who has kids and she's so overwhelmed, what does that look like session one, two, and three, where you're trying to teach her how to be curious?
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Cause I hear you say, like, oh, when women start to be curious, it really helps them get underneath this pattern.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah, what the F do you mean?
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Help me be curious, right?
25:21
SPEAKER_00: So, like, you're in session one, two, and three and you're trying to help her be curious.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: What are you actually doing in those sessions?
25:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm like session one, we're literally starting to map parts of ourselves and we're starting to gain awareness.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: So all I usually have a woman do the first few sessions too in between is track her triggers.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Track her triggers.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm not asking you to fix it.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm asking you to track how often you're getting activated and why.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Because when you start to learn your patterns, then it's like, oh shit, you know, because until then, when you're talking about getting curious.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're talking about getting curious about your own patterns, your own triggers.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: So, like for somebody who wants to change their weight, it's like having to food journal.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like getting curious about your own habits and patterns that starts to provide you the path to your own recovery.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: To know what we have to work on, yeah.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Cause there's so many women that feel like they're crazy.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're like, I had anxiety or panic attack yesterday, or this happened.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: And then when we slow it down and we start to work through it, it doesn't feel as scary anymore.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: And so when we take the fear away from it and we just look at it as data, that's when things start to start to get much clearer, much clearer.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: And so for the woman who is so overwhelmed, how does she even like how would you accept that data?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Like voice note, uh, iPhone note, like it doesn't matter, right?
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Like down and dirty, just like get it.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Just track it, track it.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: And again, understanding that we're gonna have those reactions, it's like for me back in the day, like getting triggered looked like seeing a video on social media of him doing wheelies.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: And so then that weekend I went out to the club and took a random dude home, which is like my firefighter state, right?
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Like I went from zero to a hundred, but it was like then looking back.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: It was 100% like you were living in triggers and not realizing.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Like I wasn't aware.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't I wasn't in on the joke.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't aware of what was.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: You weren't in on the joke.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: So it's like step one, get in on the fucking joke.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Like understand that the reason why you are using gummies, smoking weed, drinking alcohol, numbing yourself, something.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Those aren't the only ways, right?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Those aren't the only ways that are cleaning our listeners.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: That thank you.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: But what's wrong with cleaning underneath the refrigerator, Tiffany?
27:50
SPEAKER_01: If you're not doing it out of urgency, absolutely nothing.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: But when you're doing it because you cannot sit still.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's like any behavior that you are doing and engaging in because the silence is too fucking loud.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a problem.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So what about for our empty nester women who maybe were supposed to be heading towards retirement, but now they can't retire because they got divorced and they are just feeling so many poor me vibes.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: So there's so much unfairness wrapped into that that I was supposed to have the white picket fence, or we were supposed to be downsizing together.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: I was not supposed to be moving into this apartment by myself.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Supposed to be playing with these grandkids together.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like all of these things, right?
28:32
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like to those women out there that are working through it, it's like you have got to be able, we've got to be able to melt that bitterness into something else.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: And I love this.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And I said this to somebody today who said to me, I was not supposed to be alone at this part of my life.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: But honey, you felt alone in the marriage.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: So now that the kids are gone, it shed a spotlight on how fucking alone you felt in the marriage.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Imagine feeling that for the rest of your life.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the sentence, right?
29:02
SPEAKER_00: I was not supposed to blank.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: I was not supposed to, right?
29:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like arguing with reality keeps us so in so much pain.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: So same for our ladies who wanted kids and didn't have kids.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, I was not supposed to, I wanted to be a mom, and now I'm not a mom, and I can't go back.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I can't turn back the hands of time.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: There's so much poor me there.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: That's so much pity.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, why is this my growth journey?
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Why is this my growth journey?
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: How does a woman fall in love with her particular growth journey?
29:39
SPEAKER_00: How does a woman with that type of pain come to believe that she can actually have an abundant life?
29:46
SPEAKER_00: That's the whole trick.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: That's what we help women do in our program, right?
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Is come to see their new path as one full of abundance.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of it, again, comes with taking ownership, admitting to yourself, you know, like I had to say I attracted this person.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: And after him, I attracted someone else.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: And I same girl.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
30:10
SPEAKER_01: And so it was like all of this shit that I was sitting in where I kept attracting people.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, I saw one of my friends today on social media posted something like, hey, how do I stop getting fucked over, you know, or fucked with?
30:23
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, well, let's, you know, boundary setting, stop settling and stop with the breadcrumbing shit.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, but my attachment style and my self-esteem wouldn't let me stop settling.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Like I I couldn't.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't tolerate.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Like my self-esteem was just shot for my whole life.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: What helped you make different choices when you were still angry?
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Before you felt ready to forgive or accept or move on.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: What helped you make even one different choice?
30:52
SPEAKER_01: I think there was a moment in time when I started to realize that every time I was exerting anger towards him, I was taking something away from myself and my daughter.
31:03
unknown: Yeah.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: That's the power move right there.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: So that that was it for me.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Um it was stealing the joy of the mother that I wanted to become.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: It was stealing what kind of a friend, a coworker, a boss, all of that.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: It was stealing these micro moments of presence where I was just spending so much time living in the past and being so pissed off that it was literally robbing me of my ability to make choices for myself and to create my next chapter.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: For now, right?
31:37
SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do you feel like you recognize Don when you are needing space to grieve, right?
31:43
SPEAKER_01: When you might be replaying unfairness from any issue now.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: So whenever I hear myself replaying conversations or trying to defend myself in my mind, I'm like, oh, there's something there that I need to slow down, sit with, breathe through, find my part, take my action, feel my feelings, right?
32:04
SPEAKER_00: So anywhere I am defending or blaming in my internal conversations.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: And that could be so many things.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean I'm not going to have a conversation with someone about it, right?
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think the goal is to move towards relationships with people who want to have those hard conversations with you.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, what's my part?
32:23
SPEAKER_00: What's your part?
32:25
SPEAKER_00: So now I think it's like, oh wow, look at look, I'm and I I would guess that if if I was sitting down and mapping all of this, the places where I have the most of those mental conversations where I'm blaming or defending myself, I would guess that it comes up most with people who struggle to take responsibility or who struggle to have those hard conversations.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we've ever talked about that before, but I think the mental chatter for me is often tied to people who can't have hard conversations as easily.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Would you endorse that?
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Play with that with me for a moment.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because okay, so here's what I'm thinking in my head because I'm the IFS nerve, right?
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, but the we talk about these exiles, and when people talk about exiled parts, they often refer to younger parts.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: That's not always the case.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And exiles are created anytime we cannot express the impact of an event and get our needs met.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: You continue to surround yourself with people who don't take accountability or can't have hard conversations.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: You're setting yourself up over and over to be wounded and to re-trigger yourself over and over.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Period.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Because you cannot express the impact of how something makes you feel to someone who cannot listen and hold space and take accountability.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: Period.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Dang.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: Period.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: Dang.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: So when I hear that blame and defensiveness in my mind now, look at look at that.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: You just, you just up leveled my healing just now, Tifferdoodle.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, now I'll put it together faster, right?
33:53
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, is this person able to have this conversation?
33:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes or no?
33:58
SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's a maybe.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: And if it's a no, then I have to grieve and I have to let go and I have to do something different.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: And if it's a yes, then I have to go have that hard conversation.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: And they might move from inner circle.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: These are where people move from inner circle to outer circle.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: We don't have to kick them out of the circle.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: No.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure this is not a new concept, but like my brain's on fire that like energy needs a place to go.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Energy needs a place to go.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And when it's looping and it's not landing, there's a reason.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: So when we're looking at what are all the places shit is looping in my brain and it's got nowhere to land, like, man, that's all shit you gotta grieve.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: And that is again why you keep going back to your ex for that validation, is because there is never gonna be a place to land.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: And so the sooner you can get in on the joke, you can get to the plot that this man is not gonna be your safe landing place, you can grieve that shit and move on.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: But the problem is that probably exists in your friend circle, in your family circle, right?
35:00
SPEAKER_00: All of the above.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Because if you've tolerated it from him, you're tolerating it from everyone around you.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: So let's circle back for a moment to the top of the episode, right?
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Like we're both post-divorce, and your ex just bought a ducati, and my ex um just had his new fiance email me asking for help with an annulment of a 10-year marriage.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: And we're both like, this shit is unfair, and we're both stuck here holding the bag.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: What would each of us do differently if we could do it today?
35:33
SPEAKER_00: And how would we help women on Thursday in our VIP episode practice something that helps her shift out of this poor me piece?
35:50
SPEAKER_00: What would we do differently post-divorce?
35:52
SPEAKER_00: And what is the thing on Thursday we could help her practice in VIP?
35:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, to me, it's going to be way less dissociation, way more being present and grounded, so that I could start to process what I was feeling, right?
36:05
SPEAKER_01: Because I was on fire for years using every method that I possibly could, like we talked about, whether it was defending myself, cleaning my house to the bone, going out and sleeping around, using alcohol, addictions, like all of my vices wrapped up in all the shit that was so bad for me, right?
36:25
SPEAKER_01: And I was never, I was not present that much.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: I did not have capacity to be present.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: It hurt so fucking bad.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Hurt so bad.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: So if you were gonna do it all differently, what tools would you use?
36:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh the answer is this like I was so dissociated.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: I want to say, why didn't someone explain to me?
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Your self-esteem is so low.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: You've attracted, right?
36:48
SPEAKER_00: Like you're so masculine.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: And maybe like all of this information, it just takes so much time to learn and land and unpack, and it all happens in layers.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: But I know for me, I reached for a lot of tools to help me dissociate less.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Yoga helped a lot.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I know you don't like yoga, but like it really did help me disassociate less.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, walking on the beach helped me disassociate less.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: I could get grounded when I was walking on the beach.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: But the thing that ultimately broke through the disassociation for me so that I could actually really release more than I ever had before was homeopathy.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say that.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: If I would have found that a lot quicker, um I would have definitely been able to make changes and shift a lot.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is what the grief for me that I've had to let go the most of is how many years it took me post-divorce to get well.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I was so afraid of what was on the other side of that.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't want to feel it because if I had to feel it, that means that I had to also own my part in the story and how broken I was when I met him.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: And continued to be after to keep attracting the same type of man into my life for a long time.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: So in Thursday's VIP episode, we're gonna walk you through a handful of steps, things that you can do on paper and today to help you track your pattern, look at how dissociated you are, look how you can shift that disassociation and shift out of this poor me pattern.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: As long as you're stuck in the bitterness, your life is gonna continue to attract bitterness.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: There's no way out until that thing right there shifts.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: So our Thursday episode is focused on A, um, we'll probably tell some stories that we can't tell in a Tuesday episode, but B concrete steps you can take to shift from dissociation, defensiveness, looping, and into your personal power.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: So meet us over on Thursday's episode, which is a VIP episode.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Tiffany, what the heck is a VIP episode?
38:49
SPEAKER_00: And how do they get it?
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Link in show notes.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: Join VIP, right?
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Once you join us in VIP, you get into our cocoon community as well.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: You get free live monthly workshops with me.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: You can't attend the live monthly workshops.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: We record every one of them now.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: You're still gonna get the handouts, all the good stuff.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Thursdays is where we do the healing, guys.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: So if you're ready to again level up, ladies, step outside of that dissociation and actually doing shit that is going to make you feel better.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Let's fucking go and join VIP.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Because listening to Tuesday could make you feel like you're taking action, but it's like learning, right?
39:26
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's learning, but it's not doing.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: We have to do in order to break the cycle.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So Thursday VIP uh membership is$5 a month.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: So for$5 a month, you get all of the all of the Thursday episodes ever that ever existed.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: And um live monthly workshops, you get to be part of Cocoon, you get access to swag and things that other people don't have access to or early access to things.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, for$5 a month, come join us inside of VIP and we will hug you there.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: All right.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: We love you so much.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Peace.