Latest / UK Column Radio / Life in China as a Black American: 26 Years in Shanghai with Dana Showtime

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Life in China as a Black American: 26 Years in Shanghai with Dana Showtime · UK Column Radio

0:01
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Silk and Steel
0:05
Podcast. I'm your host, Carl Zaf.
0:08
Today we have a very special guest, a returning guest in
0:10
fact, on the Silk and Steel Podcast, Mr. Dana all the way
0:15
from Shanghai, China. Dana Showtime is a his often
0:23
being referred to as the godfather of the Chinese hip hop
0:27
for introducing rap and hip hop to China.
0:31
But I will I think you will do a better justice introduce
0:36
yourself to my audience. So, Dana, can you do a brief
0:39
intro on who you are and how you end up in China?
0:44
Sure. My pleasure, peace and
0:45
blessings. Loving light.
0:47
This is Dana AKA Showtime from the almighty Iron Mike reporting
0:52
live in the People's Republic of China in beautiful Shanghai, the
0:57
city of dreams, which has been my home for nearly 1/4 of a
1:00
century, actually over 1/4 of a century.
1:04
I moved to China in 1999. I came over just a young man,
1:08
fresh out of college, an adventurer.
1:11
I had a lot of passion for hip hop and I kind of plug myself
1:15
into this burgeoning hip hop scene.
1:17
I'm considered one of the godfathers in pioneer of the hip
1:20
hop movement. I've had a long, a long journey
1:24
in China. I've done a lot of things when,
1:26
you know, wore a lot of different hats.
1:29
But, you know, I'm proud to call it my home.
1:31
And apparently, according to the record, there's no other African
1:36
American that has lived as continuously in mainland China
1:41
in the history of the People's Republic of China.
1:43
Then meet 26 years. Got a couple good friends that
1:48
that moved to Hong Kong in the in the early 90s.
1:52
You know, people were moving there at that time, but no one
1:54
really has lived in the People's Republic of, of China for 1/4 of
1:58
a century. And I've had the, the
1:59
opportunity to travel far and wide across the country, over 60
2:03
cities. And so it's always good, good to
2:05
be back on the show. I was here just, you know, after
2:09
the first lockdown and I got to introduce myself and talk a
2:12
little bit about, you know, my story with hip hop.
2:15
But it's great to catch up and, you know, finally I we, you
2:18
know, we got to meet for the first time.
2:20
So this is the first interview after our first meeting.
2:24
Yeah, I feel like I already know you for a long time, Dana,
2:26
because we, we have known each other online and we collaborated
2:30
on my podcast. So when when I finally met you,
2:33
I, I felt like I, I know you already.
2:36
It was great that you kind of showed us around Shanghai in a
2:40
way that I would not be able to do without local contact.
2:45
Because before I go to Shanghai, I always go to the tourist site,
2:48
which is the Bong and Nanjingu, the, the pedestrian street.
2:53
So all the, all the people other tourists do when they come to
2:56
Shanghai, but you actually show me how every Shanghaiers live
3:03
and, and, and, and you show me around your neighborhood, your
3:06
residence, your compound, and you show me around your favorite
3:11
walk place in Shanghai. That was that was great.
3:14
And I, I and you know, so there are many reason I want to talk
3:20
to you and not just the fact that you are quite unique.
3:24
You have a quite unique experience as a black man, as a,
3:28
as a black Muslim man living in China for pretty much the entire
3:35
21st century so far. And so first of all, I want to
3:40
ask you, what is it like to live as a black person in China for
3:48
the last 20-6 years? And what's it like to live in
3:50
China in the year 2025? South, you know, I get,
3:58
obviously I get asked this question a lot and I've been on
4:01
different interviews and I've shared my piece.
4:04
I have my way of framing it and I got some pushback the last
4:09
time I was on a on a video and, and I share my perspective.
4:13
First and foremost, I'm only going to speak for me in my
4:16
personal experience, my personal experience as a black man from
4:20
Detroit, it's, it's the greatest, obviously the greatest
4:24
experience of my life, the greatest life choice and life
4:28
decision. It's been a wonderful, wonderful
4:31
journey. I've tasted joy, I've tasted
4:36
pain, bitterness and sweet. I've seen it all, highs and
4:39
lows, but the good far outweigh the bad.
4:44
And you know, from, from that lens, it's great.
4:49
It's incredible. It's it's, it's a roller coaster
4:53
ride and, and we're still going up.
4:56
It's still, still going upwards. So I can barely put put into
5:00
words. I think I'm going to have to do
5:03
a better job of actually just showing people because if I talk
5:06
about it, you're not going to get it.
5:07
But if I show you a window into my life and the things that I've
5:11
experienced, if I do a better job of that, people will, will,
5:16
will have a better understanding.
5:18
It's it's you couldn't even make a movie about the life that I
5:22
live in China. I, I've never seen anything that
5:24
could capture what about what I've experienced travelling this
5:28
country, the people that I've met and the journey that I've
5:31
been on. So it's unbelievably positive,
5:35
progressive, uplifting, forward moving.
5:38
I've been humbled. I've learned a lot.
5:40
I've progressed, I think politically I've never felt more
5:45
inspired and empowered. There's there's something that
5:48
was really lacking in the United States, actual political power
5:53
and and it just experiencing what I think is the 22nd century
5:58
and I have a good friend from Detroit.
6:01
We're working on a project, the 22nd century in the future,
6:05
we'll get that content out there for people can see.
6:07
But there have been some movies and documentaries.
6:10
There's probably 6 or 7 documentaries already out in the
6:13
market that have that have followed my life.
6:16
That's all. And and none of those
6:18
documentaries, they even, they barely touched the tip of the
6:21
iceberg. So that's like you would have
6:23
12, you know, 12 hours of content already out there.
6:26
Like what more do I want to show?
6:28
But there's so much more. Damon Dash, the guy that
6:33
discovered Jay-Z and Kanye West, he came out over a decade ago
6:38
and he has a film, We Went to China.
6:40
I'm heavily featured in that. There's a documentary, The Story
6:43
of the Iron Mike. A lot of things, these things
6:45
you can find. And then as well as Google and
6:48
YouTube, you can see a little glimpse into the world that I've
6:51
been able to experience. But the to answer your question,
6:55
I can't think of a better place on the planet Earth for a black
6:58
man from America to be than the People's Republic of China 10
7:02
toes down. So it's been incredible.
7:05
Well, on that note, I'm going to ask a question, I'm sure, on
7:09
everybody's mind. What is racism like in China?
7:14
Have you experienced racism? So this this is a very
7:21
interesting question and the way that I want to answer is very
7:25
delicate, delicately. So usually when I do and I tell
7:31
the story, how many African Americans and black people in
7:34
China make the statement that there's no racism in China.
7:38
I didn't make this up. They're countless people that,
7:40
that, that feel the exact same way, but that that belies the,
7:46
you know, the the reality of, of everyday experience with random
7:52
people, one off experience, various microaggressions.
7:56
There's there's definitely levels of discrimination within
8:01
Chinese society. Certain industries cater towards
8:05
certain people, There's certain bias.
8:08
If you look in education and advertising to two areas where
8:13
I've worked, you know, for years, for decades that I know
8:17
really well, you can still find discrimination.
8:21
It's very in, in both of these fields.
8:24
I think one of the reasons it's hard to address like, like
8:31
discrimination in many countries, you know, it's
8:34
invisible and there, there are many barriers.
8:37
You know, first and foremost, it's completely illegal to, to
8:39
discriminate. So it's against the law.
8:41
So you have to know your rights over here.
8:44
And if you catch any company or business discriminating you on
8:47
the basis of your, your racial identity or skin color, best
8:51
believe me, you have a case. And if you can document it, you
8:56
know, you can get your, your due, do justice.
8:59
A lot of times in education and advertising, there's all these
9:03
middle men. So you have these middle men
9:05
agencies that are online that are recruiting and trying to
9:09
find people. And they're the ones that do the
9:11
filtering and they're the ones that are that it's, it's really
9:14
hard to, to punish. So you'll have someone that'll
9:17
make an advertisement saying, you know, we want a single
9:21
white, blonde European or European looking teacher or we
9:28
need actors, you know, blackmail act.
9:30
They'll get very specific. And so if you're looking for
9:33
work, you'll see quickly. You can, you can judge by a lot
9:36
of these, these middleman agents, you know, some of the
9:40
bias. And there's always been I can, I
9:44
can tell you countless stories. I know so many stories of
9:47
individual acts where you can say it was a racialized
9:51
encounter. Unfortunately, I can only, you
9:54
know, count probably two or three that really that ended in
9:58
tragedy where someone got, you know, killed and in a conflict.
10:03
But the reason I struggle with with with answering this
10:05
question, Carl, is because racism has been politicized.
10:10
And I've noticed the problem that I've identified, the key
10:13
problem. I've been away for 25 years.
10:16
There's a lot of things that have changed in the education
10:19
system and the university system.
10:21
And somehow, someway they've they've pulled this this magic
10:24
trick on the university kids and where they basically
10:28
universalize injustice. So people are going to school
10:35
and they're learning about imperialism, colonialism,
10:41
racism, and then suddenly, like a magic wave of hand, they're
10:47
being pushed to believe that these these systems of
10:51
oppression are universal and that they happen all over the
10:54
world. And that's how people are easily
10:57
tricked into being duped into thinking that some of these non
11:04
Western countries have engaged in colonialism in anything
11:09
remotely similar to what the West has.
11:11
It's a false equivalence. And it's also, I see it being
11:14
weaponized on people, especially a country like China, because
11:17
China is a big nation, it's a powerful nation.
11:21
And it's very easy to say they're just as bad as we are.
11:25
They're just as evil, corrupt as we are.
11:28
We practice racism, they practice racism.
11:31
And then you fall into the trap of this projection where they're
11:34
projecting them their own injustice on another people, and
11:38
people are buying it hook, line and sinker.
11:41
And another point that's really critical, a lot of folks don't
11:45
realize that there is an actual deliberate plan by the United
11:50
States government. I've seen the reports from the
11:54
Department of Defense to weaponize the idea that China is
11:58
a racist state. They want to use this as
12:01
propaganda to even portray China as an authoritarian Nazi like
12:07
racist Han ethnic state that is doing the same thing as white
12:12
white supremacy. So basically they can, they can
12:16
undermine confidence. They can use this as as a, a
12:19
soft power tactic, asymmetric warfare to, to, to get common
12:24
people to lose trust in China to fear monger.
12:28
So this is a is a real tactic. And so I'm very careful because
12:32
there is no experience in the People's Republic of China of
12:36
the type of racism that I've experienced in the United States
12:40
of America, that dread, that fear, that everyday tension and
12:44
aggression, that hatred, these microaggressions every day,
12:49
nothing similar. And there's no history of this
12:54
kind of global Han supremacy that colonized the rest of the
12:58
planet and actually brutalized and genocided and then try to
13:02
murder and kill people. And I've never felt threatened
13:04
for my life here. So it's really important to say
13:07
that. So we we need to find different
13:10
language. I don't want to call it racism
13:12
here because they don't even use categories of race.
13:14
But yeah, please, I. I, I, I agree, I, I think you
13:18
know you, you hits the nail on the head.
13:20
There's a, I mean, even in a lot of the teachings about
13:25
colonization and imperialism in Western university, sometimes
13:29
they teach it from the Western centric point of view.
13:33
So that makes the West the imperial core, the standard, the
13:37
universal norm. So that that means everybody
13:40
else must follow the same playbook.
13:42
And this is where the projection come from.
13:44
They say, OK, well, China is now growing to be the next power.
13:49
So must they must be doing something been very shady.
13:52
You know, like if United States has a history of with racism,
13:56
with slavery, with genocide, with, with colonialism, then
14:00
China must be doing the same thing.
14:03
And and as you, as you mentioned about the issue of racism.
14:07
I agree it's completely different in in the in the two
14:10
countries, because in China, I agree discrimination exists and
14:15
and a lot of ways there's many form of discrimination.
14:18
The urban dwellers, you know, big city folks, they will
14:22
discriminate people from the countryside in job ads.
14:27
You know, they will have very specific requirement for some
14:30
something that will say we want young pretty women, 25 year old
14:36
of the high 175 centimeters, right, very specific right right
14:43
out there out of the gate in the job description.
14:45
But like something that would not, you know, fly obvious
14:48
obviously in in the West, But and, and and then there are, I
14:53
think that and there are a lot of also you could call racism,
14:58
but a rifle ignorance. In case of China, a lot of
15:03
racism cases come from ignorance rather than straight malice.
15:09
That's, that's my experience. You know, I as a as a Chinese
15:13
person who grew up in China, then live in United States, I
15:17
feel you can say, yes, racism exists in both places, but they
15:22
the manifest very differently in in in China.
15:27
They it's never kind of that aggressive in your face.
15:32
I'm going to, you know, I'm going to kill you.
15:35
That that type of type type of racism that you might experience
15:38
in the United States. You know, like that there's
15:41
there's not that kind of like the malice and aggression.
15:48
I think it makes a big difference.
15:52
United States in many ways lot more violent society than China.
15:57
That's a different topic. But you, you, you have you, you,
16:03
you, you, you, you have what you may call microaggression in
16:07
China. You know, people will comment on
16:09
a person's appearance. You know, this, this happens a
16:11
lot. And, and they, and, and
16:16
especially when it comes to a people of different, different
16:20
race, you know, they, they, they will, they will straight up,
16:22
straight up say there's no filters in, in, in China.
16:25
Like, you know, for example, I was when I was going, this is
16:33
not really racist. I'm just talking about example
16:36
of how Chinese people express themselves.
16:38
Like when I was going through the custom, the, the, the, the,
16:42
the custom lady looking at my passport pictures, because it
16:45
was a picture of me before COVID, I was still very lean,
16:49
very cut. And so it looks very different
16:51
from what I look now. And she just look at me.
16:54
She's, and then she look at my old passport photo when I was,
16:59
but you know, when I was still a little bit chubby.
17:03
And so she, she's looking at the, the two passport photos and
17:07
look at look at me. He's like, what happened?
17:09
You were fat, it got skinny and you are fat again.
17:14
It's very direct. You know, like this is how, how
17:16
Chinese people express themselves.
17:19
But I, I, I agree that discrimination does exist in
17:22
China. There's all different level of
17:24
discrimination. And, and as you, you talk about
17:27
in like, especially in field of like, like advertisement, right,
17:34
or education, sometimes it will specify when they want a foreign
17:39
English teacher. They really want like a white
17:41
long looking English teacher. So they can present it to the,
17:47
they can advertise it to their prospective parents.
17:49
Look, we got a legitimate white guy teaching English.
17:53
So even if that guy could be from Romania or, or Russia and
17:57
have an English accent, they don't care.
17:59
They will take that person over, say somebody who is from the
18:03
Philippines and speaks fluent American style English, you
18:09
know, just because the other person look Asian.
18:12
So, so they will take a white person, a non-english speaking
18:15
white person over, over a colorful person who speaks
18:20
better English. So that does exist.
18:23
And, and I, so I, I, I agree with you that, that there's
18:26
discrimination in China, but it's very, very different from
18:30
the way it manifests itself in United States.
18:33
I, I don't know what's your, what's your take on that?
18:37
Yeah. I mean, well, I'm, I'm just so
18:41
frustrated by the lens that's being used to look at China.
18:46
I really think that we have to put that in perspective so that
18:49
we can have these good faith conversations about what's
18:53
happening over here. If you don't get that clear in
18:56
your mind, the hustle that's being played, because when they
19:00
bring up racism, they don't really want to have a
19:03
conversation about racism in China.
19:05
They don't want to have a, a real intimate conversation about
19:08
what's happening and how, how, how the problem can be solved.
19:12
They're just using it as a smear tactic.
19:15
And one of the things that I find so, so hypocritical about
19:19
that is like they are universalizing the negative when
19:24
when let's say the United States is back into a corner for
19:28
something that they can't get out of human rights abuses,
19:31
racism, they'll their fall back. Their default argument is to
19:37
project to universalize it, say everyone else does it, but it's
19:41
always notice, it's always the negative.
19:43
If you flip that and you talk about the positive things, what
19:49
about democracy? What about free, you know,
19:52
freedom, concepts of freedom, all these things that you say
19:55
are positive. Why can't they be universal?
19:57
Why can't we see the positive in China?
20:00
Why don't we ever talk about democracy and in a realistic
20:03
way? Why don't if, if you, you know,
20:06
if you tell me, what will China, I mean the United States, you
20:10
know, we believe in justice, freedom and equality amongst all
20:13
races. And we've worked hard to improve
20:15
themselves, improve ourselves. Let's have that conversation
20:18
about what China believes, what values they have.
20:21
And how they're working to improve these problems and how,
20:24
how far they've actually come. Let's look at it in a, in a
20:27
serious way. It's it's illegal by law in the
20:31
Constitution to have identity politics.
20:34
They acknowledge in the preamble of the Constitution the reality
20:39
of, you know, high and ethnic chauvinism, as well as, you
20:45
know, extremist views from minority groups.
20:47
They, they acknowledge that both minority majority relations need
20:51
to be balanced and we don't want a nation that caters to the
20:57
other. And so basically the, the ways,
20:59
you know, China functions is they, they do have tremendous
21:03
efforts for affirmative action. They do care a lot about
21:07
minority rights. They, they do care about how
21:10
they treat other people. And they have laws and
21:12
procedures that they put in into place that I think that, you
21:17
know, we need to talk about and look at more seriously than
21:19
these, you know, these character characters that we have.
21:25
But for me, I don't, I don't even, there's so many other
21:27
issues on the table right now that are so important, so
21:31
critical that it, it's not even a priority issue for me.
21:34
These identity politics and, and these, these, these social
21:38
relations between, you know, different groups.
21:42
There's so much more that we need to address.
21:44
So for me, it's like a breath of fresh air, like that pressure
21:48
and that strain. It's not like living in America
21:51
where racism is in your face every day, all day, not only
21:55
because it exists, but because they don't have the mechanisms
21:58
that China has and they're serious about mitigating in, in
22:02
the United States, if you see in the government, there's a
22:06
division amongst the government if, if racism is, is good or
22:09
not. Like, like the people in
22:10
government being racist and bigoted and they feel like this
22:13
is the way they go. That's not happening in China.
22:15
They know the, the party line and how they should handle
22:19
these, these, these issues. And so it's more about
22:23
enforcement back home. Like we, we can't even figure it
22:26
out. So they're weaponizing racism
22:29
every day here. It's illegal.
22:31
It's literally illegal to use the media, use culture, use the
22:36
public spaces to do anything to promote anything other than than
22:42
than ethnic harmony. So.
22:44
That that reminds me of a viral video that was circulating a
22:49
while ago on Axe is this Chinese woman who who happened to be
22:55
dating a white person, actually dating a white man.
22:58
She she was giving a racist confrontation two were a black
23:02
person and that video went viral.
23:05
What happened was later apparently Chinese police paid a
23:10
visit to that that racist Chinese lady, you know, invited
23:14
her to cheat, so to speak at the police station.
23:17
And though she had to come out to do a public apology, she she
23:22
she she put out a public apology video.
23:25
You know, that, that just that just, you know, it's very hard
23:29
to see that happen in US where police visit you for making a
23:34
racist video on on going viral online.
23:38
You know, but that that did happen in China.
23:41
And yeah, the racist person like that, that piece of crap didn't
23:45
exist in China. But, you know, but it was very
23:50
much being, you know, the police very quickly made her apologize
23:56
publicly. Very swiftly.
23:58
So imagine in the United States a rapper coming out actually,
24:03
this is this is happening right now with with with Kanye, but
24:06
we'll we'll put that aside and it's for different reasons.
24:09
But yeah, you're not going to find a rapper, especially if if
24:14
this rapper came out and said something that was anti black or
24:17
something crazy. And and he's not going to be
24:21
stigmatized, he's not going to be blacklisted.
24:24
You can just say whatever the hell you want.
24:26
Like imagine the biggest rapper in China at the peak of his
24:30
fame. He's already being called out
24:32
for doing like illegal acts and lewd acts.
24:35
He's he's got songs on the radio or the, OR that he released and
24:39
published that talk about like date rape and drugs and, you
24:44
know, all these things that he's being called out for.
24:46
And then he goes on social media for his apology.
24:50
And his apology was, well, you know, it's not, it's not my
24:54
fault. I just learned this from, from
24:56
black culture, from black people.
24:58
I'm just a kid, you know, I learned this stuff.
25:01
And you would think, all right, what happens next?
25:03
Well, in China, what happens is he was already in trouble, but
25:06
that was the end of his career. He got completely blacklisted
25:10
and banned and he hasn't resurfaced till this day.
25:13
It's been a decade. No music can come out.
25:16
You're not like people. It was a a huge uproar for him
25:20
trying to pull that fast one for him to to even believe that that
25:23
he would be able to get away with that justification.
25:28
But it but but yeah, it's just a different culture and society
25:30
where where things happened that most people wouldn't even fathom
25:34
took place. I, I don't think most people
25:35
know that story about PG1 and why he's he's not around and,
25:39
and, and what he did in the backlash.
25:41
But for being publicly racist, you're not going to get a huge
25:46
welcome in China. Yeah, that that's a, that's a,
25:51
that's a very, very good point. And that it was a pretty big
25:56
deal within China, you know, what happened to PG1.
25:59
But you know, so outside of China, this kind of Chinese
26:03
entertainment news is really get filtered through.
26:08
So, you know, but maybe that will change when later with
26:11
Chinese soft power start to spread.
26:13
But for today, you know, China in a way is kind of a it's own
26:18
civilization, self-contained, and the outside world has a very
26:23
little awareness of it. This is why I interview people
26:26
like you, you know, who have been living there for 1/4 of a
26:31
century. So you have experienced a lot.
26:33
You saw the whole growth of Shanghai from, you know, early
26:38
2000, late 1990s to, to what Shanghai is today.
26:44
So what is it like to to living in Shanghai in 2025?
26:48
You know, having witnessed all that transformation?
26:53
Well, I think this is a good segue.
26:55
I can share some of the the photos from the first time that
26:59
that you know, we got a chance to meet and it was such a huge
27:02
honor to meet you is like, like you said, we've known each other
27:05
for so long and I've always been trying to get you to come to
27:08
Shanghai. I'm like, when you come and get
27:10
over here, get back, make it to Shanghai and I just really
27:14
wanted to, to, you know, show you as much as I could about the
27:18
local life. And so let's see if we can get
27:20
some of these pictures up on our journey, our first meeting in
27:24
Shanghai and what the vibes are like.
27:26
So we, I met you at the hotel and then immediately, it's
27:31
probably about 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
27:33
The sun was still out. And, you know, this is a Sunday
27:38
evening in Shanghai, a Sunday afternoon, pretty slow day.
27:44
And so we go to North Shanshi Road.
27:47
And this is actually we, I remember we were walking around,
27:50
we're trying to figure out, is this the French Concession?
27:52
Where are we? And I always kind of lose my,
27:54
my, my exact bearings. Now I know the border for the
27:58
French Concession and the foreign concession, the foreign
28:02
settlement, which is the British and the American is, is.
28:05
Yeah. And she lose.
28:07
Yeah, I wrote. So yeah.
28:09
For for my audience who might not be familiar with Shanghai or
28:12
the Chinese history, you know, after the Opium War, Shanghai
28:16
was divided up between the different foreign powers.
28:19
So each foreign powers there will have their own concession
28:23
in Shanghai where Chinese laws do not apply, you know, where
28:26
the there the the laws of that particular foreign nation would
28:31
apply with their own police enforcing it.
28:33
So French had their own quarter in Shanghai called the French
28:38
Concession where, you know, the French only French law will be
28:42
enforced by the French police and British and Americans also
28:47
have their own piece of Shanghai.
28:49
But later British and American concession merged together to
28:52
form what's called International Settlement.
28:56
You know that will including Bond, the famous Bond where all
28:59
the tourists go visit. But and there's actually people
29:04
don't know this, but there's actually Japanese concession and
29:07
Russian concession as well. So, because different foreign
29:10
powers called carve their own sphere of influence in Shanghai
29:15
and so, so, so French concession nowadays kind of chic place in
29:20
Shanghai with all these like very chic stores.
29:24
People will look at the picture and say we're all the people.
29:27
The day we went out, it was super hot in Shanghai.
29:31
You know, I, I went in like late, Oh, I went in mid,
29:36
mid-september, right. And that's when you took me.
29:38
It was super, super hot. People will just try to stay
29:42
indoors And and so it's also like a, a slow, I think it's
29:46
like a weekend, you know, but like it was too early for people
29:51
to go out to eat yet. So, so it's it's so so that this
29:54
is probably why the picture in the picture, you don't see many
29:57
people here. Yeah.
29:59
Well, actually though, when we went out, it was, it was packed.
30:02
We could because we would have went in.
30:03
So if you go to the next picture, yeah, hit the next one.
30:08
So that's kind of what it looked like when we were there as it
30:11
was starting to get done. Basically, this is just in the
30:16
International Settlement north of the French consection.
30:20
We're literally like walking in the, in the footsteps of of, you
30:25
know, the western colonial footprint.
30:28
This is, this is a kind of like a, an apartheid place where,
30:32
where, where Americans and, and, and British people lived.
30:37
And I used to live in the Old Town, the old section, you know,
30:41
the old Wall city where all the Chinese were put.
30:43
But at one point this was almost all exclusively British and and
30:48
and Americans. And it's a pretty large
30:50
settlement. But go.
30:53
Ahead, there's actually a famous Bruce Lee movie, Fist of Fury.
30:58
I think it was Fist of of Fury that was but about Bruce Lee's
31:04
character got really furious that when he went to Shanghai
31:08
and saw the sign in the international settlement outside
31:11
the parks, there's no Chinese and no dogs allowed.
31:14
So he he got really angry and he jumped up and kicked the sign in
31:18
half. And so that that's kind of the,
31:21
you know, what you were referring to as kind of the
31:23
apartheid period in China when, you know, the Chinese people
31:27
were restricted from a certain area of Shanghai, including
31:32
public parks in the International Settlement.
31:35
And then, you know, I, I know some, at some point there was
31:39
some major Western publication, I forgot what's BBC or Wall
31:45
Street Journal. They're trying to debunk this
31:48
claim from Bruce Lee movie. They say, oh, so after they did
31:51
the research, they say, OK, there's actually no sign that
31:55
says no Chinese and no dog allowed in the park.
31:58
What the park sign and regulation says is that this
32:03
place is reserved for European residents and no dogs is allowed
32:08
in the park, which basically the same thing.
32:10
Which basically the same thing. Yeah.
32:14
So that was their debunking. But anyway, yeah.
32:18
So, so, yeah. So you know, we've come a long
32:21
way from that. And this, this, this party was
32:24
going on. Actually, it was pretty
32:26
impressive for a Sunday because we would have went in there.
32:31
We just, you probably don't remember because we walked by
32:33
it. We just took a look and then I'm
32:35
going to show you what we saw next.
32:37
But the place was packed and basically this is a pizza bar.
32:41
It's called House of Zup and they had like a live radio show
32:44
block party. So the DJ is behind the pizza
32:47
bar. He's he's DJ ING playing music.
32:50
People are inside buying pizza, spilling out to the street and
32:53
just enjoying Sunday, just chilling.
32:55
I think they call it the the Takeover by bouncy bounce.
32:58
And they do these live house, live house parties, house DJ
33:03
music on the street. So we were chilling.
33:07
And so if you go to the next picture, because it was crowded,
33:10
we just started to explore and we found, you know, Shanxi Rd.
33:16
it's also called Seymour Rd. Seymour Rd.
33:20
That that's the old name during the times that was part of the
33:23
International Settlement. And it's also home of the corner
33:28
of the Jewish ghetto and a large Jewish settlement.
33:31
And these buildings that we're exploring here, we can go to the
33:36
well, this one was, yeah, this is the courtyard that we went
33:39
into. This is just incredible
33:40
courtyard. Then on the left, you can see
33:42
that last building that we were looking at.
33:44
And this is owned by Sir Robert Kouton.
33:49
You know, at the time, in the in the late 1800s, he's the the,
33:55
the wealthiest man in all of Hong Kong.
33:58
So, yeah, tell us a little bit about him because it was it was
34:01
really cool hanging out in that space.
34:03
But he's got an incredible story that that links to Bruce Lee.
34:07
Well, well, first of all, I have to say that that the place that
34:10
you took me, that courtyard, you can't see from this picture, but
34:13
there were a lot of baddies hanging out.
34:15
I wish I had camera with me when I went with you.
34:19
So that's why next day after you show me that place, I went to
34:22
the DJI flagship store in Shanghai and got me a DJI Pocket
34:27
3 camera. I well, I wish I had it when
34:30
when I was travelling with you because there's so many things I
34:33
saw. I wish I had capture on film.
34:36
So the well this is owned by Robert Hu Tong and Robert Hu
34:40
Tong he is EUR Asian, so he's of both European and Chinese
34:45
heritage is and he himself is a result of the open war.
34:51
So after the the British won the open war and forced China to
34:56
cede Hong Kong to to Britain, Hong Kong became the first kind
35:03
of the entree port. You know, a lot of the, the, the
35:05
the Western merchant came together to do business with
35:09
China. And one of them is Robert
35:12
Houghton's father. He is a Dutch businessman with
35:18
with Jewish descent. He came to Hong Kong to do to
35:23
basically be a human trafficker. I mean, his, his his whole
35:27
business is shipping the indentured Chinese servants from
35:31
southern China, from Guangdong to Dutch, Latin, Latin America,
35:37
which is I think Suriname and and and and or and then they his
35:45
whole business. You know, in Cantonese, this is
35:48
called my suicide selling the the piglet.
35:51
You know, that's because that's how those indenture servant,
35:54
Chinese indenture servant felt. They felt they're being so like,
35:57
like, like piglets been shipping across the ocean to serve as
36:01
coolies on plantations. And this is because during that
36:06
time, in the late half of 19th century, slavery was being
36:10
banned in South America. So now they're, they, they got
36:14
they, they, so they suddenly lost, got cut off from the, the
36:19
slave labor that was being shipped from South Africa, from,
36:23
from Africa. So now the Europeans, they
36:26
decide to import indentured Chinese servants from Guangdong
36:31
to replace the African slave that previously worked on
36:35
plantations. And that was the business of
36:37
Robert Ho Tong's father. And he while he was in Hong
36:42
Kong, he did like what many Western businessmen at that time
36:46
did. He had a kid women and a kid
36:49
Chinese women, which is Robert Holton's mother.
36:54
And he had five, four or five children with her.
37:01
But interestingly, not that the interesting so, so later this
37:05
this Dutchman who rose to became Dutch counsel in Hong Kong.
37:09
He actually left, he left Hong Kong, left his kept women and
37:16
and his children and and he he traveled to United States to
37:21
marry a real estate tycoon's daughter in San Francisco.
37:25
And then they all became naturalized British citizen and
37:29
traveled to to live in Britain. So Robert Ho Tong, he, his
37:34
mother sent him to those missionary schools because
37:38
that's so only school that will take take these mixed children
37:42
in And and so he was brought up with both English and Chinese
37:49
language skills. So it became very useful when he
37:53
graduated to interpret the workforce.
37:56
And at that he first applied. He first joined the Chinese
38:00
custom because at that time all the Chinese custom were
38:04
controlled by the British. So after Opium War, all the
38:08
Chinese custom were controlled by British.
38:11
So he joined the custom in in Canton, today's Guangzhou.
38:15
After working there for a few years, he decided to join one of
38:19
the largest trading house in Hong Kong, that's Jardin
38:22
Matheson. Jardin Matheson started out as
38:25
the biggest opium smugglers into China.
38:29
You know, that's it started out in opium smuggling and he So
38:34
Robert Houghton quickly rolls through the rank as a comprador
38:38
because he knows both, he's fluent in both English and
38:42
Chinese. And then he got his well, he he
38:47
the way he got his job is because his older sister married
38:51
another compador was working in Jardy Matheson.
38:56
So that got him in the company. Then he got his younger brothers
39:00
also into the company. And and and one of his younger
39:04
brother is none other than Ho Compound, the grandfather of
39:10
Bruce Lee. So Robert Ho Thong is actually
39:12
the grand uncle of Bruce Lee and and and The funny thing?
39:17
I got a picture. Yeah, OK.
39:21
I. Think I got a picture?
39:23
OK, let. Me see OK, so that's, that's,
39:27
that's the picture of of Bruce Lee and and his grandmother and
39:33
and and and and and and in in the, in in Shanghai.
39:37
No, no, it's just, it's just his grandmother.
39:40
This is at the place we were at. Oh, right, this is like Bruce
39:45
Lee's grandmother at the at the Seymour Rd. in Shanghai, Seymour
39:48
Rd. in the in the Houghton residence that that we visited.
39:52
So so you know, So what happened was Robert Houghton, obviously
39:59
you can tell his euration, right?
40:01
He doesn't look Chinese, but his younger brother Ho Kan Tong.
40:07
For some odd unexplained reason it's 4 Chinese and like he's not
40:12
Eurasian. This was never explained in the
40:15
family. Why Like, you know, there's out
40:19
of the 445 brothers, there's a middle brother that's fully
40:24
Chinese, but that that's the full Chinese brother is a
40:28
grandfather of Bruce Lee. And and so so all Robert Hotho
40:33
and all his younger brother they, they after working in
40:36
Jordy Matheson for a while, they learned the trade.
40:39
So they decide to strike out on their to form their own trading
40:42
company. At that time, the opium business
40:45
is already kind of fading because what happened is after
40:51
2nd Opium War, Britain forced China to legalize opium trade.
40:56
So when they leave, fully legalize opium trade.
41:00
That made planting opium also legal inside China.
41:04
So pretty soon opiums were growing everywhere in China.
41:07
So there's no need to import opium from British India
41:10
anymore. So, so, so there's less profit
41:13
in it. So, so that's when companies
41:16
like Jardine Matheson and Robert Hotels, they all got out of the
41:21
open business and that they got into the business of real estate
41:25
in Shanghai. So because this was a time of
41:27
the the Taiping Rebellion, the Taiping Rebellion spread across
41:31
much of southern China. The Taiping rebels took all the
41:35
outskirts of Shanghai. So a lot of the wealthy people
41:40
in the lower Yangtze deltas all fled to Shanghai.
41:43
And then a lot of war refugees were fled leading into Shanghai
41:48
population of Shanghai double, triple, quadruple.
41:52
And suddenly all these tycoons who own real estate in Shanghai
41:57
became immensely rich by being slumlords.
42:01
And, and Robert Ho Tong is, is one of them.
42:04
That's why they have those properties in Shanghai.
42:08
And, and, and, and you know, Bruce Lee's story is, is another
42:13
interesting story, but we don't have time to, to, to get into.
42:17
But Bruce Lee actually do also have foreign ancestry, but not
42:20
from his grandfather Ho Cantong, because Ho Cantong actually had
42:27
a tip that mistress, some say a White Russian mistress in
42:31
Shanghai at at the time. And it's through that mistress
42:37
Ho Kantong had a a daughter Grace Hall, and that was the
42:42
mother of Bruce Lee. And and so later when Grace Hall
42:48
was like 18 or something, they, the whole Canton hosted a a big
42:54
party at the Robert Houghton Residence in in Hong Kong, where
43:00
they invited Cantonese opera performance to put on a
43:04
Cantonese opera show. And Bruce Lee's father was the
43:09
was playing the role of the the martial arts actor in the
43:13
Cantonese opera. And Grace Lowe was smitten.
43:16
And then she eloped. Who is The Who is the Cantonese
43:20
opera actor That was Bruce Lee's father.
43:23
So Ho Kunta was actually very angry because he's he's he's a
43:27
billionaire. He was a millionaire
43:29
billionaire. He's his daughter is not
43:32
supposed to elope with some common actor.
43:34
But that's what happened. And Grace Lee eloped and and
43:38
that's how Bruce Lee came about. Let me see if I can have another
43:43
picture. This is a picture of.
43:48
This is a picture of of Bruce Lee's Grand Bruce.
43:52
Lee's grandmother. Yeah, OK.
43:54
And this is the next place we went to.
43:57
That's a that's a synagogue, right?
44:00
Yeah. So after we left there, you
44:03
know, just just on the same block, we just walked over.
44:06
But it's just, you know, when we were there, I didn't know that,
44:10
you know, Bruce Lee had a connection.
44:12
I, I still didn't know the history of that man.
44:15
But it's just so remarkable how we're just walking through
44:18
history and we're just strolling through Shanghai world one block
44:21
and there's so many layers. And as you were pointing out,
44:24
like so many people, because that building just got open in
44:28
the past year, that area wasn't open to the public and you
44:32
didn't see it in the, in the photos.
44:34
But next to the building, there's like, like A5 story
44:38
building that has all these really nice boutiques, like a
44:42
really exquisite coffee shop. They're selling plants and, and,
44:48
and clothes. No one buys really expensive
44:50
clothes. And so the all these, I guess,
44:53
TikTok folks and Instagram people, everyone is there taking
44:56
photos and, and walking in the footsteps of, of Bruce Lee, his,
45:01
his, his grandmother and basically in the footsteps of
45:05
imperialism. Like a lot of the stuff that
45:07
we're going through is built up by dope dealers.
45:10
And to this next place speaking to that like this was the, the
45:16
what is it? The Oh Hell Rachel Synagogue.
45:21
Yeah, that so at that time, the richest people in Shanghai is
45:25
not actually Robert Holton. Robert Holton is the richest man
45:29
in, in, in Hong Kong. But Robert Holton and his
45:31
younger brothers were richest man in Hong Kong, which by the
45:34
way, really upset the Hong Kong authorities because, you know,
45:37
you try, these Chinese people are not supposed to be wealthier
45:41
than the British themselves. So they were kind of upset when
45:44
Robert Holton bought a house on the top of Victoria Peak.
45:48
So, and, and, and after that, Bruce Lee's grandfather, Ho
45:52
Kanto also want to buy a house right next to his older brother.
45:56
So that's when the British governor of Hong Kong panic and
46:00
he put in, that's the, the, the, the Hong Kong legislation, the
46:04
1904 peak reservation came out to reserve the Victoria Peak for
46:09
Europeans only because they, they're, they got scared.
46:13
All these Chinese are getting wealthy enough to move into what
46:16
they consider European neighborhood.
46:19
And so, so from 1904 onwards, for a long time until, you know,
46:24
after World War 2, the Victoria Peak was only reserved for the
46:28
Europeans. And this is all because Bruce
46:33
Lee's grandfather wanted to buy a house there.
46:36
And, and, but, but, but the whole toast.
46:38
We're the richest family in Hong Kong, but they're not the
46:41
richest family in Shanghai at the time.
46:43
The richest family in Shanghai are the Sassoons and Kodoris.
46:47
They're Baghdadi Jews. Yeah.
46:50
They're Baghdadi Jews who migrated to British India just
46:55
before the Opium War. And then they started their
46:59
business smuggling opium from India to China and, and later
47:05
the transition again from opium dealing into real estate in
47:09
Shanghai, becoming slumlords. And so they because that they
47:13
became the richest people in Shanghai.
47:16
And that This is why, you know, you see a lot of the old style
47:20
synagogues and stuff that that, that were there.
47:24
And there was also a large, a large Jewish presence during
47:30
World War 2 because during World War 2, like the the Chinese
47:38
Council in Vienna, he would write issue visas to any Jewish
47:43
person who wish to flee Europe to Shanghai.
47:47
Well, even though at that time, actually you don't need a visa
47:51
to go to Shanghai because Shanghai has all this
47:54
international settlement, but a lot of people don't know about
47:57
it. So, so, so this Chinese council
47:58
in Vienna, she will issue any pass like visa to any Jewish
48:03
person who come to his consulate for, you know, for passes to
48:07
Shanghai that enabled something like 2020 30,000 Jewish people
48:13
who fled to, fled to Shanghai during the war too.
48:16
And so there's there's a large Jewish ghetto in Shanghai during
48:20
World War 2. This is where you took me next,
48:23
right? Yeah, this is the same.
48:26
This is. The aerial view of That's the.
48:29
Same synagogue, but the, if you go a little bit, I believe it's
48:33
moving more towards the east. You will see the, the, the
48:38
ghetto area and the refugee center that, that housed those,
48:43
the Jewish community at that time.
48:46
So, so, yeah. So we got a little taste of,
48:50
again, this is like the 1st 20 minutes of us hanging out.
48:53
We, we, we're going through history all on one block.
48:56
And then we walk a little bit further up and, and it was
48:59
called Shang Kong Lee. So yeah, Shang Kong Lee, Shang
49:05
Shi Lu and Conde Lu. So the cross street Shang Kong.
49:10
And this is the place where we went and it and it already
49:13
started to get dark by the time we were there.
49:15
And this place is a nice little loungy hangout, a lot of kind of
49:20
like coffee shop bars. It's kind of barista style
49:24
canopy, you know, hang out in in the under the sun or just just
49:30
outdoor kind of kind of places. Again, you couldn't see it from
49:33
this picture, but when we're there, there were a lot of
49:35
baddies. So there's a, you know, they got
49:44
like a home slice pizza, a zoo, this Italian restaurants,
49:48
Bubba's American BBQ. If you go to the next one, I
49:52
took you to the rink where this it's the skating rink, bar, bar
50:00
restaurant. People are skating and drinking
50:02
at the same time, which makes no sense, but people are doing it
50:05
and they get all these. Disco we saw, we saw a mixed
50:09
couple, like a mixed Chinese and black couple skating there and
50:13
Chinese man and the and the black ladies who were skating
50:16
there when we were there. I remember that, yeah.
50:19
Yeah, so this place is just like a cool Swank, you know, place to
50:23
chill out. You go to the next one, it gives
50:27
you. They kind of try to make it like
50:29
a modern Shin Tandy. If you look at the next picture,
50:32
it's a little apparently it's like a, a Japanese designer that
50:38
was behind it. But it was here while we were
50:41
hanging out that I started to, you know, ask you about your
50:46
story, right. I, I wanted to know more about
50:50
your experience and coming in reverse because our stories are
50:54
very similar. I'm the black guy that goes to
50:56
China. You're the Chinese guy that
50:58
actually moved to America, to Chicago, and you landed in, you
51:03
know, you're right next to, you know, next door to Detroit.
51:07
You're my neighbor, my sister, you know, grew up in Chicago and
51:10
you landed in the black community.
51:12
You landed right in the hood. So I wanted to ask you about
51:15
like, you know, growing up in the hood in China and Chongqing
51:20
and then moving to the hood in Chicago, what was that like?
51:24
Did Chongqing prepare you for Chicago and how did you deal
51:29
with the stereotypes in like a black, all black community?
51:33
How do they react to the Chinese guy?
51:36
Well, first of all, just living in Chongqing in 1980s prepared
51:41
me nothing for 1990s America, OK, especially 1990s South Side
51:47
Chicago. I, I, I, just to clarify, I, I,
51:52
my first half of my childhood up to when I was six years old, I
51:57
was living with my grandparents in, in the part of, in the, in
52:02
the, in the residential compound that's attached to Chongqing #1
52:09
tactile Factory. So I, I grew up in a working
52:11
class neighborhood in, in Chongqing.
52:14
But when I went to this time for me to go to school, I actually
52:18
went to live with my dad on the campus of Chongqing University.
52:22
So, so it's, it's a very shelter.
52:24
Chongqing University is a very sheltered environment.
52:28
You know, it's a, it's not, not really the hood.
52:31
But when I moved to Chicago, well, my parents, we actually,
52:38
we live in Bridgeport of Chicago, which is it's not close
52:46
to the South Side. So Bridgeport at that time is
52:49
still a like a white working class neighborhood right next to
52:54
Chinatown. So you're getting some
52:57
infiltration from Chinatown with, with some Chinese families
53:01
start moving in. So my, my elementary school was
53:05
there's maybe 20% of the kids were Chinese or from Chinese
53:10
immigrant families. And, and then, but when it's
53:14
time for me go to, oh, by the way, it's in that neighborhood,
53:19
the white working class neighborhood of Bridgeport.
53:22
That's the first time I experiencing racism in America
53:26
because I, I still because we, when I started high school,
53:34
because I started 8th grade in United States.
53:36
And then, you know, for freshman year, I went to attended
53:41
Kingwood Academy, which is is in the hood.
53:43
It's in the South side of Chicago, right next to the
53:47
University of Chicago campus. And for people who don't know,
53:50
the University of Chicago campus is it's a ghetto within a
53:54
ghetto. So, so, so, so University of
53:57
Chicago is surrounded by, you know, the South Side ghetto.
54:01
But my high school, Kingwood Academy, just outside of the
54:05
campus of University of Chicago. So it's right in the middle of
54:08
it. And but so I would from my,
54:11
where we live in Bridgeport, I would take a bus for like every
54:15
day for like an hour and sometimes an hour and a half to
54:18
travel through the entire length of Chicago South Side to go to
54:22
school. And one day when I was waiting
54:24
for my bus, this is the Bridgeport, you know, the white
54:26
work class neighborhood. I still remember this.
54:30
It was very cold. It's in the winter, you know,
54:32
like it was snowing and very windy.
54:35
And I would just still shivering in the cold.
54:37
And this a car of four white teenagers, they just drove by
54:42
and then spat on my face and call me a chink.
54:46
And and that's my first experience with racism in United
54:49
States. And, and we then, but when I
54:53
actually went to the school in, in, in South side in in Kenwood
54:58
Academy, I didn't experience that because people were
55:02
curious. You know, like Kenwood Academy
55:04
is like like 90%, ninety, 4% black student body, right?
55:09
That's where I went to high school.
55:11
People are a lot people are very curious because I was this kid
55:15
from China. So even even if they, you know,
55:19
sometimes they will ask question is more out of curiosity than
55:23
out of mouths, which is what I, what I say about China, you
55:27
know, China, there might be people consider maybe racism or
55:30
microaggression, but it's more from point of ignorance mixed
55:36
with curiosity that it's not from a point of mouths.
55:40
You know, like in, in, in Kingwood Academy, I was never,
55:43
you know, there was never people coming here and be like
55:46
aggressive in your face, like calling me a chink and and then
55:50
that kind of stuff. I never experienced that.
55:53
And so that is so that is so. Powerful not to cut you off, but
55:57
just I want I want you to continue.
55:58
But that is that is such a powerful experience, Carl and
56:02
that story, like the the average person, they're going to assume
56:06
that if you go to the, you know, to the ghetto with the black
56:09
folks that they're going to treat you bad.
56:11
They're going to attack you, they're going to beat you up and
56:13
bully you. But you're literally telling me
56:16
that it was when you went to the suburbs, you got a spot on.
56:19
But when you were in the hood and one of the toughest schools
56:23
in Chicago, you know, people were cool.
56:26
Like like, you know, they were, they were curious, but like you
56:29
didn't have anyone actually verbally assault you.
56:33
But please continue. I'm sorry, this is.
56:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no verbal or or or
56:38
physical assault. You know, that's just not my
56:40
experience. And, and and Kingwood is, is, is
56:45
a tough place because I, we have people getting shot in our
56:48
schoolyard. You know, one time I was getting
56:51
out of math team practice. You know, I, I know very
56:54
typical. I was, I was a nerd math on the
56:56
math team. So when I was leaving math team
56:59
practice, I heard some girls say oh so and so a guy I heard I
57:02
heard a loud bang and some girl rushing also so and so and so
57:06
got shot. So all the people are rushing
57:08
out to form a huge circle around this one spot in the schoolyard.
57:13
I wanted to go see too. But then I saw my buses coming
57:17
and I know if I miss that bus, I'm going to have to wait
57:19
another 20 minutes. So I rushed to the bus and later
57:23
when I came back home, I turned on the TV.
57:25
They said somebody got shot and died in, in my school.
57:29
You know, that's that, that's the kind of place it was.
57:32
But I did not experience, you know, racial attacks or, or, you
57:37
know, verb or even verbal accounts in, in, in, in high
57:41
school. So I did attend Kingwood Academy
57:43
for a year. I lived there.
57:46
So I spent my freshman year attending there and then I
57:50
transfer, I got tested into Insub in Illinois Math and
57:55
Science Academy, which is in Aurora, IL in the middle of the
57:59
cornfields. It's, it's a whole different
58:01
experience living in a residential school in the, in
58:07
the, when you're, when you're 16, in the middle of the
58:10
cornfield in rural Illinois. But, but so overall, my
58:14
experience with the black community in, in, in America is
58:18
actually pretty positive. You know, I did not have the
58:21
same kind of face, the same kind of racist attacks that I, I had
58:26
in, in Bridgeport in the place where my family did live, you
58:31
know, because I, that wasn't the only occasion where I was come
58:34
from. There was another time, you
58:36
know, when I was just walking through the park where I would
58:39
go to, you know, because my, the bus stop is on the, I have to
58:44
cross the park to go to the bus stop to go to school.
58:46
And one time when I was crossing the park, you know, I was
58:49
accosted by this, a white and white kid and then Latino kid.
58:54
And they're just, you know, they're, they're, they're,
58:57
they're just very aggressively confronting me.
59:00
I'm like, what's up? What's going on?
59:02
And then they pretend to reach into the pocket to pull a gun.
59:05
And then I got scared. I was like, oh shit, I turned, I
59:10
turned around and ran, but but like they didn't have a gun.
59:14
And then there was some, some old, there's some old grandpa in
59:20
the neighborhood. They yell at them, you know, say
59:22
like, what did he do to you guys?
59:24
You know what, why the what? Why are you guys trying to bully
59:26
him and stuff? But you know that that that's
59:28
was was my experience in the white working class community
59:33
versus the black community in Chicago.
59:38
So I, I noticed like in a lot of your, your guest appearances are
59:43
you do have a lot of good camaraderie with, with, with
59:47
black host. You have a lot of black guests
59:49
on your show and you're on their show and you still keep that
59:52
relationship and and there seems to be a connection.
59:56
What you know, what role would you say black Americans can have
1:00:02
in US China relations and what advice would you have for for
1:00:07
black Americans that that want to come to China?
1:00:10
That's a very good question because I think the reason I do
1:00:14
have few a lot of camaraderie and solidarity with a lot of of
1:00:18
my Black host or Black guests on my show is because I think they
1:00:23
get it. They understand they understand
1:00:25
United States is a racist society.
1:00:28
You know, and a lot of the aggression show toward China
1:00:33
precisely because China is a non western, non white nation that
1:00:38
is rising. This is this is the the source
1:00:41
of a lot of US China tension and a lot of those those those black
1:00:46
commentators that gets it, they gets it.
1:00:48
I don't have to explain it to them, you know, because even
1:00:52
with some, some, I'm sorry, but this is true.
1:00:56
Even with some white folks, they will deny it.
1:00:59
They won't deny deserves because there's element of racism.
1:01:03
They they will even deny US is a racist society.
1:01:07
I'm like, look, you, you live in a completely different world.
1:01:11
You know, you, you have not, you just do not have the same
1:01:14
experience that we have. And, and so, so, so with black
1:01:20
folks, you know what to explain that they get it.
1:01:22
They know, they know how it is. And, and, and I think This is
1:01:26
why I think the, the black Americans that can bring a
1:01:29
totally different perspective when it comes to US and China
1:01:33
relationship. You know, for example, you know,
1:01:35
when the question is, is asked, why do we need to being
1:01:39
antagonistic relationship with China?
1:01:42
That's a question that very few mainstream media is asking
1:01:46
nowadays. You know, for the past 810
1:01:50
years, the, the, the very important question, why do we
1:01:53
need to have a hostile relationship with China?
1:01:57
And I think that that's a question a lot of the, you know,
1:02:00
the black commentator asking why, why I, I think they can
1:02:06
bring a completely different perspective into the US China
1:02:12
relationship. I think.
1:02:14
And, and for the people that, who are want, want to have an
1:02:18
interest to come to China, I, I say calm, calm.
1:02:20
I mean, I, I just, I say not just to black folks, but to any,
1:02:24
any colored folks, any folks that want to come to China, come
1:02:28
experience it for yourself because seeing is believing.
1:02:32
You know, until you are in China, you won't know what, what
1:02:37
it's really about. And you know, let's face it,
1:02:39
when you live in the imperial core, a lot of time your
1:02:43
perception is being influenced by the corporate propaganda,
1:02:47
even by osmosis. You know, like I noticed I, I
1:02:51
talk about my own trip to, to Russia.
1:02:54
You know, I thought I was pretty immune to the Western
1:02:57
propaganda, but I, I was still surprised when I traveled to
1:03:00
Moscow in the summer. I found it so beautiful and
1:03:04
colorful and everything is so bright and, and, and then I, I
1:03:08
checked myself. I'm like, why did I think that
1:03:10
way? Why was I surprised that that
1:03:13
Moscow is could be beautiful and colorful in the summer?
1:03:16
And then I realized, because all the images I saw from the
1:03:20
Western mainstream media about Moscow, it's always presented as
1:03:23
a very great and depressing place.
1:03:26
You know, you don't, you don't associate with color and joy and
1:03:29
people enjoy their lives. And so, but seeing is, believe
1:03:33
me, even for the China haters, I say, come, this is China.
1:03:36
At least I understand what you hate about, you know, right now,
1:03:38
you are really not, you're not hating China as a physical real
1:03:43
place that existed. You are hating China as an idea
1:03:46
that only exists in your head that was planted by the
1:03:50
corporate media. You know, go experience it for
1:03:52
yourself. This is this is my my advice and
1:03:56
and, and, and keep an open mind. You know, keep an open mind and,
1:03:59
and, and keep mind that. But again, US is not China.
1:04:04
You know, you don't need to project the conditions inside
1:04:07
United States to China. China is a different
1:04:10
civilization, different country. You just got to treat it,
1:04:14
interact with it on its own terms.
1:04:16
Those are my my my thoughts. I think that's that, that is
1:04:19
incredible advice. That is the best.
1:04:22
That's some of the best advice I've heard because as you're
1:04:25
saying it, I'm just reflecting on one is two.
1:04:31
Like when, when, when I saw your trip to Russia, I have the same
1:04:35
experience. I was looking at what you were
1:04:36
going through. I was like, man, I, I didn't
1:04:39
imagine Russia to be like this. So I'm seeing it through your
1:04:42
eyes. I was actually blown away by
1:04:45
just how the the the streets looked, how people were dressed.
1:04:48
You could just see clearly a vision of a very progressive,
1:04:53
advanced, clean, safe society. People are super healthy, people
1:04:58
are looking good. It just, it just didn't capture,
1:05:02
you know, what I thought it would be.
1:05:03
And, and I think this, this idea about not projecting and
1:05:09
bringing your baggage because when I came, I brought a lot of
1:05:11
baggage and that blinded me for seeing things because I saw it
1:05:16
through the lens of America. And this is, this is not an easy
1:05:19
thing to do, to unlearn what you've been trained, but only if
1:05:23
you have an open mind and you want to learn.
1:05:26
You truly want to learn, like, why things out the way they are
1:05:29
here. Just because your first
1:05:32
impression leads you to a conclusion, it doesn't mean that
1:05:35
that's the right conclusion. Sometimes you're seeing
1:05:38
something and there's much more complexity to it.
1:05:41
And on that note, if I could just show you what it looks like
1:05:45
how we party. Yeah, this is just early night
1:05:51
highball with the homies, the friends chilling again.
1:05:54
This is like, this is like a Saturday, but people of all
1:05:58
walks of life just having a good, good vibe.
1:06:02
You can go to the next one and yeah, this is just where we
1:06:06
were. This is the place that we were,
1:06:07
we were hanging out. The vibes are good, good people.
1:06:14
The hip hop is good. And then there's another view
1:06:17
that they they do on their social media.
1:06:21
And you ask like, I don't know if it's coming up.
1:06:26
Is it coming up? Oh, there we go.
1:06:29
It's Cruise. You can see we got Chinese
1:06:33
people, we got African Americans and Arab people.
1:06:38
Everyone's just happy having a good time over here.
1:06:42
There's not a lot of stress and pressure.
1:06:44
Goodbye Newland Interactive. And this is the place that, you
1:06:50
know, I've called home for the past 26 years and there's so
1:06:56
much more that that I want to share with you.
1:06:59
Carl. I have, you know, we didn't
1:07:01
really even get into our trip. We did a lot of cool stuff our
1:07:07
like our experience, our Shanghai journey.
1:07:09
We had two days together. And I do have some footage that
1:07:13
I want to share with your followers and your viewers.
1:07:16
They need to see it. So I want to line it all up and
1:07:19
share some of these stories, these amazing places and, and
1:07:21
get into, you know, the heart of Shanghai, the, the tremendous
1:07:25
change that is taking place here.
1:07:27
And when I see, you know, the, the direction that, that
1:07:31
Shanghai and China in general is going.
1:07:33
So I just want to thank you for having me on the show.
1:07:38
It's been a great hour plus. I, I'm sure we can go all
1:07:42
evening. We can go a lot longer, but I'm
1:07:46
just happy I got a chance to meet you and, and kick it with
1:07:49
you in person. And I can't wait for and you
1:07:52
know, for you to come back again so we could, you know, do even
1:07:56
more. I think we got so much done.
1:07:59
We went just just what we showed you, just what we're talking
1:08:03
about. We walked two miles.
1:08:06
Actually, we didn't even get to the second, the 2nd place we
1:08:08
went to. I guess we'll get into, into the
1:08:10
next video. When we went to we had the whole
1:08:13
DD adventure and we we saw some other bars and that was just
1:08:19
half of the evening. That doesn't get into the late
1:08:22
night adventure that we had all in one night.
1:08:24
This is this is the reason, you know, this is the whole my the
1:08:29
whole time I was with you, I was like kicking myself, man, I wish
1:08:32
I have a camera with me. I can put the capture this in
1:08:35
your film. This is why next day I went to
1:08:37
the DJI store and got get myself ADJI pocket 3 so I can film
1:08:41
everywhere. I mean like some of this stuff.
1:08:43
It's like straight out of a rap video, You know, you open the
1:08:47
door into a smoky den and all these fatties are just launching
1:08:52
around. I was like, wow, where am I?
1:08:56
This is great. Yeah.
1:09:01
Yeah, the lifestyle was yeah, it's unbelievable.
1:09:03
The night life in Shanghai. It's always exhilarating.
1:09:06
So we we didn't have, we we had a nice and you're not a, you're
1:09:10
not a hardcore party guy, you're not a drinker or anything like
1:09:12
that. So it was it was interesting to
1:09:15
see you in a sober to just to see the whole experience and
1:09:18
take it all in. And there's a lot of layers to
1:09:21
what you know, what we saw. And I want to get into that.
1:09:24
I want to talk about the layers. There's a lot of history in a
1:09:29
lot of venues that we went to, a lot of personal stories.
1:09:32
And I think that it it will be good for for.
1:09:35
OK, we have to, we have to do Part 2.
1:09:37
We have to do a Part 2 of this interview where we, we, we, we
1:09:40
get to get, to get to talk about in detail of all those places
1:09:45
you took me in Shanghai. And we can talk about the
1:09:48
history of those places and the, the transformation that you saw
1:09:53
through your stay in Shanghai. And this is, I mean, this has
1:09:58
been a great, fascinating conversation and we'll
1:10:02
definitely, I'm definitely have to bring you back to do to do
1:10:05
the part too. But but this is this is great.
1:10:08
Dana, thank you very much for making the time to share with
1:10:14
your Peace of Mind and how how we really is to live in China.
1:10:19
I think that people really need to see that and then hear that
1:10:23
and and and thank you very much. We will do this again.
1:10:28
It's been my honor. I want to say actually we have
1:10:30
to do. We got to do a couple part twos.
1:10:33
We got to do a Part 2 on Malcolm X because I still haven't
1:10:36
finished telling the full story of Malcolm X in China and why I
1:10:40
believe he was assassinated, which I think is linked to his
1:10:43
connection with with with China. That story needs to be explored.
1:10:47
I found some new information on that.
1:10:49
We still got to do. We didn't finish our warrior and
1:10:53
I think our warrior episode. So we got three-part twos that
1:10:58
we have to do. No, it's going to be a series,
1:11:00
not Part 2. It's a series.
1:11:03
It's going to be Carl and Dana. Does China seal the whole
1:11:07
series? All right, guys, you you heard
1:11:09
it for first on the Silk and Steel podcast and, and we'll see
1:11:14
you catch us next on our next episode.
1:11:17
Peace, peace, peace. Peace, peace, peace.