Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Sandra Simpson

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Guest: Sandra Simpson · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: I'm so happy to meet you because what I'm doing now in my life, I take inspiration from the work you do as a person with DID. So I'm very excited to meet you and thank you for doing what you do and helping us.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: That's so kind. I was so surprised to get your email. I have been a huge fan of Melissa Kaufman for a really long time and have tried to get her on the podcast since 2019.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: And
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: then it just wasn't happening and wasn't happening, and I was waiting and waiting. And then last year, I got to interview Melissa Kaufman and Matt Robinson because, I mean, they said yes, they, they, it hasn't ever aired because they're still waiting to get it approved, which had been the problem in the first place. Melissa had said yes, but then waiting on the hospital to say it was okay to do. And so just waiting and waiting and waiting. And so I feel like your email was so out of the blue and also not at all.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Well, Melissa encouraged me. Melissa is like, in a lot of ways coaching, not coaching. That's too strong of a word, but she's also someone that I look up to. So she's been able to help me in this new pathway that I'm taking with LEAP and becoming an advocate. Yeah, I'm a fan too.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: I love her. She's someone I trust. I'm just getting to know Matt Robinson from the interview that we did on the podcast, and then I met him at ISSTD conference last year, not the one this year, last year. And so I had some conversations with him and also was on a panel with him. And then I've not interacted with him since really.
• 3:01
  And so I do not know him as well. And also when I got your email about the program, I was like, well, that's lovely. Let's do that. I'm glad something was okay or approved. I'm glad I get to meet you.
• 3:17
  I don't mean you're in the middle of all that. I just that is the only connection and why your email was out of the blue, but not out of the
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: blue, because I wasn't asking for it, and also I've been waiting. So I'm so
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: excited to meet you too.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: I, so I don't need approval from the hospital. So there's that,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: which is really nice. I love it.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Because I'm on the advisory panel and so, you know, there you go. So I reached out to you, which was a bold and drastic thing to do, but I thought you might want to hear about what we're doing with LEAP, which is kind of cool and new.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: I would, I'm so excited about this. I also want to acknowledge and thank you for your patience. I know we've had to reschedule a couple times because my family was in crisis and moving and things were happening. And so now you have waited after I have been waiting. And so finally, here we
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: are today. I'm so excited.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: So are you on the West Coast?
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: I am in the Northwest.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Northwest. Oh, lucky you.
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: It's really lovely. I seriously have never loved any place on earth as much as I love it here. It's amazing.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Yes. My husband and I just retired. So we're like at that place where we could move. We live right beside a highway. So we're thinking like, wouldn't it be nice to move somewhere where you didn't hear the highway?
• 4:45
  And we have this thing about the Northwest, you know. Anyway, so I'm happy for you. I'm very happy for you. You're living my dream, girl.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you. I am happy for me too, and that has been a long time coming. I think I think that doesn't escape everything. We might hear some trains in a minute. If you hear trains, you can just pause or we can just work it in.
• 5:09
  It just is. There's nothing we can do about it. The trains and boats. But Trains and boats? It's so lovely.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: Trains and boats? That's what you get? You're so lucky.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: I I am lucky to be safe momentarily, right? I am grateful to have peace and to find serenity and to be developing those internally. That is what is amazing. I'm so grateful. And what's wild is by the time this airs, it will be almost, it will be more than a year, I think, or almost at a year since I moved.
• 5:48
  So it's fun to even talk about it in a reflective way, in a way that will air and people can know that I'm okay because it's been hard.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: It's been a hard season.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Really sorry.
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Thank you. Okay. I will just let you introduce yourself. Like, how however you think would be best to introduce you and the program.
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: Okay. I gotcha. I'll give it my best shot. You got this. Hello.
• 6:22
  My name is Sandy Simpson. I'm 62 years old. I earned a graduate degree in education from the University of Massachusetts. I'm a retired Boston Public High School history teacher. I live with my husband of thirty six years and our 29 year old son.
• 6:43
  I'm a Celtics fan, a Red Sox fan. I love to garden, cook, read, watch movies, go to concerts, run, paint, and walk my dog, Nessie. I also have been diagnosed with DID for the last eight years. I began having serious mental health challenges when I was in my late forties and I was misdiagnosed for about eight years. I was diagnosed with epilepsy.
• 7:10
  And during those eight years, no one asked me about trauma or in my background. And if they had, they would have found out that I was a victim of child sex trafficking for five years. But when I finally did get diagnosed with DID, I found a trauma informed team at Belmont to help me through. And now I'm at a point, in my life where I'm taking on some advocacy roles. And I'd like to talk to you a little bit today about LEAP, which stands for Lived Experience Advisory Panel.
• 7:50
  And we are in partnership with the Trauma Continuum at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts. And we are a group of mothers, sisters, grandmothers, neighbors, college graduates, researchers, university professors, artists, health care workers, high school teachers, activists, and we're all survivors of childhood trauma and diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder. And we are on an advisory panel for McLean hospital and what we use our expertise as individuals with lived experience to do. We inform clinical and research programs. We develop participatory action research projects.
• 8:40
  We work to destigmatize DID through sharing our personal experience and we work to promote social justice and prospering. LEAP, what have we done so far? We've been together. I've been on LEAP for about three years. The idea of LEAP to this lived experience advisory panel had come up at the trauma continuum at claim and before COVID and then things kind of fizzled apart.
• 9:12
  And then right after COVID, they began putting it together. And when we first met, what we did was develop, goals And, and, through that, that we began taking on projects. We've done a bunch of infographics that are put up around the hospital. The first one describes what LEAP is, what LEAP has meant to us is the second one, which is a series of quotes that I'll share with you later. There's another one that's called just diagnosed reflections from leap, talking to people with a fresh diagnosis, a new diagnosis, what are some things that they can do for themselves.
• 9:56
  And then finally, a really successful one is living with DID an illustrated journey. We've also published articles in partnership with the research teams at McLean. We're in the middle of doing a participatory action project, research project called Photo Voice and I'll tell you about that in a little while. And again, we meet with researchers and clinicians regularly to inform their practice. I'm at a point in my life where I've in my both in my treatment, and in my, it's kind of hard to separate the two, but in my outside life, I feel like I'm at a point where as a person with lived experience, I can play an important role in improving health care options and treatments, mental health conditions, educating the public, elected officials and healthcare professionals.
• 10:59
  So those are my goals and I have five specific goals. I wanna try and identify gaps in care. I can provide insights into specific challenges and highlight areas where improvements are most needed. My firsthand experience can shed light on issues such as limited access to treatment, inadequate support services or even discriminatory practices. I want to inform research.
• 11:29
  My insights and perspectives can help researchers and healthcare professionals understand the real world impact of DID as a stigmatized health condition. And I want to inform the development of new treatments, interventions and support services. The other thing I want to do, and this one is very exciting. To me right now, I want to advocate for policy change by sharing my story, with policymakers. And I want to destigmatize health conditions.
• 12:00
  I've, there's a program, a project at Belmont at McLean that's called Deconstructing Stigma where people with lived experience with all different kinds of mental health diagnosis tell their own personal story. So that's on the website. You can get a job from there. Oh, and we made our own website. It's the www.traumacontinuumbackslashleap.
• 12:35
  So that's some fun stuff that we've been doing. I have some some quotes from people who have worked with leap. And I'd love to share those with you just to get some lived experience voice besides me. So this is what working with Leap has meant to other advisory panel members. One person said, I found that my experience living with DID is so different from what is portrayed in mainstream media.
• 13:10
  So the work with LEAP means that I'm not silent any longer and I have the agency to create change. Another member said being part of WEAP makes me feel like I'm somebody and my expertise matters. I feel my lived experience of having DID is valuable to and for others. Another participant said being part of the lead team means being part of a community of people with shared commitment to making things better. Whether we're focused on fighting stigma, informing research or helping move clinical practice forward, being a resource to such a high caliber research team means that our voices are heard and our perspectives are valued.
• 13:55
  So that's my team, that's LEAP, that's my avenue for trying to become an advocate for folks with DID. I am unsure of what opportunities will appear in the future to continue doing this. But one project that I just started with LEAP, and it was so much fun. It's called Photo Voice. Have you ever heard of this?
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Tell me about it.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a participatory action project, right? So that means that unlike regular research where academics study or do research on community members in a participatory action project or research, the community members are making the research are involved throughout the research project to, and so we produce data that's more relevant to our needs. So photo voice, I got a facilitator's guide is from Rutgers University and it's usually it has in the past been used for sexual and reproductive health and rights. But we're using it at for DID. And what it is, is as a group you get together and you decide what concerns are facing us in our real life as being a person with DID.
• 15:30
  And we list all the concerns and then we narrow it down to one concern, which was tough. And then we develop a research question about that concern. And that was tough. That took a couple of hours just to get at that point, but the conversation was so rich. It was, it was great.
• 15:52
  And at one point someone said, I couldn't have done this if we tried this a year ago. So having met regularly with this group of people with DID, we've all begun to trust each other a lot more and to have these strong bonds. So this conversation about developing a research question and what our concerns were felt much more authentic because there wasn't a lot of fear. So we developed a research question and now the next thing we did, one of our members is a photographer. So they taught us the basic elements of photography, using our phones, of course.
• 16:36
  And now our idea is to go out. The research question is, what are challenges? As a person with DID, what are some valid challenges you face? Very broad, right? But kind of specific because it's only dealing with people with DID.
• 16:53
  What are challenges you face due to the, due to DID? And, now we need to go out and take pictures that reflect what we think our major challenges are. And then we come back and we put all the pictures up and we notice what themes are represented. And then we decide on what theme we wanna show and we develop captions for each one of the pictures. And then we do a public showing of them.
• 17:26
  Doesn't that sound great?
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: That's amazing. That's very similar to what our 2019 study was when we delved into what's happening with plurality and how that was unfolding at the time. And this is so powerful when it comes from lived experience through the lens of lived experience and reflected on by lived experience. That is attunement, emotional needs being noticed, reflected, and met. And to have that expressed and then shared, I think is so beautiful.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to the Well, first, I'm really looking forward to the day we all meet and get to share because because, you know, I'm 62. I'm still getting over the fact that there's other people with DID. I mean, it was so lonely. I mean, I was so I didn't really have, like, a community of people with DID. So this sharing that's happened in the last three years with this group, but also I really am excited to see how they see their own challenges.
• 18:37
  Is it going to be similar than mine? Are they going to be wildly different? I don't know. And I'm so excited to see them. And then I'm excited to see them displayed and the conversations that we have because photo voice doesn't end with just the display of the posters or the display of the photos.
• 19:00
  There are directions and suggestions for how to continue with community discussions afterwards that might be come from seeing the exhibit itself. So if there's a lot of things that can grow from this. Plus this is our, we are looking at this one as like the pilot, right? None of us have ever done this before, but we might be able to refine our skills enough to develop a series of research research questions that could help clinicians or, you know, there's just so much that it can do.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: I think there is such potential and I love that it is adding exposure in ways that are healthy and consensual. With that vulnerability, what is that well, I wanna ask, you can totally pass, but with that vulnerability, what is that like to be in the public? Like that happens with the podcast too, where I'm like, are the very, very, very vulnerable pieces I'm willing to share. There's actually so much that I don't share or so many episodes, like literally a thousand episodes that have never aired, more than a thousand. And so like with that vulnerability being so exposed in a public way, and some people have done terrible things with that.
• 20:36
  Also it is how we have found each other and how we help each other and how we're real with each other. So balancing the risk for the reward of healing and also not exploiting myself, like how do you navigate all of that in the context of LEAP?
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a very profound question because it really addresses for me the progress that I've made in therapy. So the vulnerability of telling telling my story, right? I have a neuro pathway that says, stop unsafe, dangerous, shut up. You know what I mean? I I mean, inside it's like hide.
• 21:27
  You're not supposed to be, you know, I learned to be quiet and to like, so there's this old way of thinking that is, that is telling me to stop. But I've also created this new neuro pathway, which is still a little shaky, but I feel a sense of confidence that I have a seat at the table and that I can be gentle enough with myself to accept the vulnerability and also accept the confidence to know that both those things can happen at the same time. And also, I'm at a place in my life right now. You know, my son's grown. I've retired from my work.
• 22:21
  I am more able to take the risk. I might not have eight years ago. You know what I mean? So I think the idea, the idea that you're asking is how how do you move forward when there's all this danger basically to be in public. And it's a risk I'm willing to take because I think I was so alone when I was suffering.
• 22:51
  I would love to be able to help one person with DID who's alone. You know what I mean? And even if that's by influencing someone who provides services, will remember my story when they're dealing with the next person that they see who might have background or they might consider trauma in the person's presentation. I think there's so many ways that I can help that one person. And that I think, you know, I dedicated my life to service.
• 23:23
  That's what I do. It's one of my core beliefs even though yeah. So I think I think I think it's valuable. And I think for myself personally, I think it's worth it. You know what I mean?
• 23:41
  I can't I'm not here preaching that other people should do what I'm doing because everybody has their own personal journey. Right? But this is where I am right now.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: And I feel privileged to be here. I think what you said is so important because there are things I would be willing to take a risk for that I do not wanna put my children in danger for. Exactly. Right? So there are some things I had to pull back from when they were younger that I can do now.
• 24:15
  There's more that I want to do that I can't do yet. And that is really, really tricksy navigating that.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I think the important thing of what you said too was about your values, because when we are congruent with our values, that is always exactly where we're supposed to be. Even though everyone else has different values and different things. And so for me, I knew when I started the podcast that there were other people in the dark, sometimes literally, and alone and needed a voice. And I couldn't control whether they liked me. I couldn't control whether they wanted to hear what I said.
• 25:01
  I couldn't control if the things I was learning in therapy mattered to them because my therapy is not their therapy. Some of it overlaps because there's general things, but everybody's different. My system is not your system. My therapy is not your therapy. So people can't put that on like a piece of clothing, right?
• 25:22
  They have to do their own work, but I can't control any of those layers. I also could not control haters or hate mail. I could not control people who sometimes innocently from like sexualized children parts, but also maliciously targeted me in really abusive ways. I couldn't control whether people stalked me or my family or showed up at my kids' schools or all these different things. I couldn't control any of that, but I could present, this is the piece I am able to share.
• 25:58
  And as they say, like, take what is useful and leave the rest.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: You know, I I haven't experienced I mean, I haven't been out I haven't been doing this very long. I mean, publicly speaking and sharing my story very long. So I haven't got the negative backlash from outside. I get it internally. But and I don't know.
• 26:26
  I don't know. I mean, I don't know how I'm going to handle that because you know, it's going to happen eventually. Right? And I don't, I don't know if, what kind of strength they'll have to deal with that because the fear of rejection is like so strong, you know? And I know I can't control it.
• 26:49
  I know it's just that I'm scared of it a little bit. The the naysayers, the haters.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: I think part of what I have learned is that one of my values is that I will not be complicit by being silent. So it's really important to me to say the things and just letting other people decide which things they wanna listen to or not. Like, no one even has to listen to the podcast. They could just listen to something else. Right?
• 27:20
  And then at the same time, I think the things that have been harder were when I was trying to make it reciprocal, like with the community or things where I thought, if we can meet in person at Healing Together or at symposiums or in the community and get to know each other, we will increase our community, which I still believe is true. I still believe that increases our resources and support, even if it means we have options and different ways to connect like your group gathering every month to build trust, right? And also I know that happens developmentally and that happens slowly and that happens gently. So when there have been times that people got upset about different things, either publicly or privately, then I still can take the information from that without personalizing it. When I was going to, I'm trying to think of examples.
• 28:16
  When I was going to start looking at religious trauma, I didn't do that until I found this person, this person, and this person who I thought understood that and would support it because I knew I could not go through that alone. It was too devastating to go through it alone. But then when I brought it up, they were like, Woah, that is dangerous. And I can't believe you would even talk about it. I am out of here.
• 28:40
  So I could personalize them leaving and feel abandoned and betrayed, or I could take the information of, Oh my goodness, I'm right. This really is a problem, and I really do need to look at this. And so just kept going, even though it was by myself. The same thing when I talked about gayness and like, oh, I just need to handle, like, what is being done to me differently than who I am, and it's okay to be myself. I thought, I will do this now because I have this person and this person and this person.
• 29:14
  And so there's enough support to do that work, especially because I'm doing it publicly. Has to go through that publicly? I did. And as soon as I brought it up, they're like, no, you're doing it wrong. You don't know about this yet.
• 29:28
  And you don't know and I'm like, why are you people correcting me when you're supposed to be the safe people? And so I could take that personally, or I could say, They are having big feelings because this really is that important. I really do need to address these issues in myself, even though I'm starting where I'm at, not where they've already gotten to, because my therapy is also different from theirs, just like theirs is different from mine. When we talk about something with LEAP and the hospital or the podcast and all this publicity, and sometimes that's good, sometimes it's a wave or a tsunami of awful, and in that context, all of us are human. So even when I make mistakes, I make them very publicly.
• 30:14
  When there's something I don't know, it's very public because I'm just here and I'm just me. Nothing is scripted unless I say, here is something I wrote in journaling, and I'm going to read it to you. Right? So we don't plan all of those things. So part of that vulnerability is literally our humanity
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: And our learning curve.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I think this jump that you make, that you've just described from taking it personally or digesting people's actions that way or looking at them less, looking at them as a way for just collecting data information. You know, what does that, what can I learn from their actions? And yes, they, their actions show me that this is a topic that needs more information or but that that jump, I mean, that's very sophisticated. To me it seems very sophisticated and it's a great pattern of thinking that that I have to seriously work on if I'm going to, you know what I mean, if I'm going to keep going forward. So that's one of my challenges here.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: Right. How to still prepare for the best you're wanting to create on yourself, with your system, with this program, with the activities that you're doing, the research, all the things, and also not quite braced for what will be hard. We don't want to be so braced that it stops or we shut it down, but wise. Right.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: Right. I mean, I believe that there's this there's this phenomenon that happens or this reality that happens that when I go out to speak publicly, it's like, it's this thing, right? There's a thing and it's like, you're an advocate and you get treated as such. And then you come home and you're doing the dishes, you're your mopping the floor and you're walking the dog. It's like advocacy role.
• 32:24
  And then you come back to your small life. And I'm not saying small in a bad way. I'm saying, you know what I mean? So to go from back and forth that to be able to hold both like this is one role I play, but it's not all the roles I play. Just like the mental health challenge that I have of having DID is not completely who I am.
• 32:50
  Right? There's others, many facets of my personality. Well, that's true too.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: Right? It's so nuanced and complex And there's layers to that that become what I've only just this year learned the term parasocial, where people have a whole idea, a whole story in their head about who we are because of the things that we share and because we do let them in.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: And
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: also, like you're saying, that's not the only piece of who we are. And figuring out one piece over here doesn't mean I have these pieces over here figured out. Being able to show progress in this area doesn't mean I even see this area over here. And it's really hard. One thing that I thought of when you were sharing your introduction about the history of LEAP was about the pandemic.
• 33:47
  When the pandemic hit, I was so intentional with the podcast about that. I was like, the whole world is in crisis. Let's talk about it. I brought in people with lived experience to say, let's meet, what is this like? How are you adjusting with your systems?
• 34:02
  I brought in therapists to talk about what telehealth is, because I hadn't already been doing it before that. And like all these intentional conversations, but we all came out of the pandemic in different ways, and it was much harder to actually leave the pandemic. And I'm not sure that we ever did because it changed everything. So, like, there's a new life that we have now, but there was never really a bookend to that experience because everybody was on different pages. And I don't just mean vaccines or not or politics this or that.
• 34:40
  I mean, like, what that looks like when you got through whatever your experience was to what it looked like for me. I I I was in quarantine for the full two years because of my youngest in her airway. There were people who had been out, like, since, like, three months after it started. Right? And they're like, why are you still in quarantine?
• 35:03
  There's there's so many different experiences. And I think that happens with dissociation of trying to even orient ourselves. So in some ways, I feel like just now catching up to myself, like even doing interviews again for the podcast of, this hard thing has happened. Where have I been? And you're like, we kind of got started, happened, and now we're really going, and then look where we are in this all this progress.
• 35:39
  I think that is just the meta of the meta of the meta in a beautiful way.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting. This whole idea of being like this when I do this role, I have this together. But when I do this role, I'm still learning, and I don't have all the cards yet. You know, I feel for myself therapy is always like that. Like, there's always more layers to peel back.
• 36:08
  There's always I'm always like, really? Like, you know, there's just always more work, and I'm trying to understand my mind and study my mind so I get it more. And I think that the advocacy role that doing LEAP and working with clinicians has informed my growth as a human, you know, in so many different ways. I mean, I found for me being introduced to the science of the brain was so revealing. I mean, I was a high school teacher.
• 36:49
  I knew a certain amount of the science of the brain for learning, but, neuroplasticity just rocked my world. The idea that I could relearn that I didn't have to be afraid every time, you know, there is a big bang or, you know, someone honked their horn that that I could reteach myself ways to live a calmer life was so exciting to me. But I know that's not how everybody thinks. Like I know that someone else that's on the panel could care less for the scientific data of it. You know, that's not what moved her thinking about the way her mind worked.
• 37:31
  So it's interesting, the idea that everybody has a different experience. Especially when we talk about dissociation and what it's like to have has a different experience. That's why I'm so excited about this photo voice exhibit that we're doing. Actually see and hear people explain their experience. I'm so excited to be part of that process.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: It's going to be amazing. And I love when the different perspectives overlap because you're saying you appreciated the science, but this other person appreciates something else. And that's what moves them, right? And also that can happen inside too, where part of us is very left brain, part of us may be very right brain, but all of us, whether it's internally externally, we need all of it. That's the whole point of healing our brains.
• 38:27
  We need both sides online working together. And I know for me, I very much identify as a writer and with words. I grew up in a library and I had access to that even when I did not have access to people. And so poetry and art and these right brain things are very meaningful to me. And also, when I learned about Simone's work over in Europe, when I learned about Melissa and Lauren's work and all of this that you all are doing there, I feel like that saved my life because it was the first time that someone, it wasn't that I needed someone to prove DID, even though we've had to over and over again, unlike any other diagnosis.
• 39:25
  It was more like someone could say, Your suffering is real. We see evidence of the suffering. And that to me was the first time I felt like my left brain and right brain came online at the same time together.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: It's, it's interesting the discussion of right and left brain because I know, I have a very strong creative drive. And I have my solace, my my happy spaces, you know, being around music or or artwork or or like creating a painting. And but my other happy place was in front of a classroom in a room full of teenagers, you know? So I loved telling stories. That was that was I taught history.
• 40:25
  And so the intersection of the two, when both are in line on the same time, when both sides are like working together, I can't think of times when that's happened. It always seems separate to me.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: Well, was in therapy a long time before that happened, and it was like a flash of lightning through my whole body. Was so significant in my healing. I can't even tell you.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: I bet. I bet it was.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: You know what? I think it may have even been that even more, not just my left and right brain together, but who I am, who I experience myself to be actually also being in my body. Because ultimately, that's what they're saying. Your suffering is so real. It is physical.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: Exactly. I think I think what clicked for me when I saw Lauren Lombaugh's presentation at Healing Together, the idea just there was it clicked so much this idea of not being able to stop certain emotions. You know, gas is, the foot is always on the gas pedal. Do you remember that presentation? It was wonderful, but for me it just clicked.
• 41:46
  It was like, oh, that's it. That's what I'm feeling. That makes complete sense. And then the rest of it, it just, yeah. So the science of it, there's something beautiful about it that helps me feel more confident.
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: I remember this presentation and I remember where I was when I was watching it. And it was so fascinating because I remember like as it started and as she got going in my head, I was kind of arguing with, well, but the gas pedal can be used for good too, right? That's how I get things done, da da da da, which now I understand is part of flight, right? I'm overproductive as part of flight. Also going back to values, like you said at the very beginning, when I realized what I am good at naturally, what comes out of me naturally was not happening in my life, then it was the beginning of me starting to ask the question of who or what or why are the brakes on?
• 42:52
  What is happening that the brakes are on that I'm not being able to write or go to meetings or community Zooms? Or why am I disconnected from myself? What has put the brakes on? And that took a lot of time to like figure out and explore and respond to. But as I did, learning about the gas and the brakes and being able to use that also for getting myself out of unsafe situations, getting myself into safer situations, helping me pace my work differently.
• 43:30
  I I've been working like three jobs, and just recently I've resigned from one of them because of this balance of I, okay, I'm not going to survive this, and that's not actually what I need to be doing to my body. And also if I realize that I have a gas pedal, then what do I wanna be moving toward? What do I wanna be moving into? If I have the power of a break, what do I want to stop? What do I want to slow down?
• 44:00
  What to like, it was so empowering, again, left brain and right brain, not just what's happening neurobiologically, but also metaphorically. That changed my life.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: I know. I know. Those questions I mean, those questions are so hard to answer. And, like, I'm still working on them now. The idea of understanding what I wanna work towards.
• 44:26
  Like if the gas pedals on, I'm not just going to keep running in circles. I need to pace myself and pick goals. And that took a long time through therapy before I could even do that. I was just I was just getting through life. But now it feels like there's more choices, that I have a more ability to make clear and defined choices and get back to a world of service.
• 44:54
  Like I feel like my feet are for most of the time firmly on the ground.
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. I think for me, when I first started seeing Melissa's work and Lauren's work presentations about all of this and the more recent research about all of this, it was such powerful timing in my life, which I know at the hospital, they didn't plan that or could control that, but it worked out in my favor because I had just left this situation that was not good for me having to deal with religious trauma, sexuality, all these different things. I needed a gas pedal to get out of that. So even learning about the gas and brake, like there's so much about not shaming ourselves.
• 45:42
  Like it's there for a reason. And also I did not need to drive myself into the same situation in a different shape. So like when everything gets shut down of, oh, we're not actually safe because what I need to drive towards is freedom and health and growth, not more hiding or more difficulty or more only parts of myself or welcome. Like, if I'm trying to be inclusive of all of me, then using that gas and break for good, like, maybe it's because we're in between wicked movies and the the next movie's about to come out, but, like, how do I use it for good? How do I use my break to protect me from danger in healthy and appropriate ways of like, woah, we need to think this through first.
• 46:34
  I need to respond in healthy ways, but also use my gas to help me move forward toward a new life that is healthier and more grounded than what I've ever had before.
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: Because being able to hold both those things at once and understanding both are important to making our choices, right? Both the idea of moving towards something that has a safer and a healthier place in your life and being able to hold the fact that it always hasn't been safe, I've lost.
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: And the difference between when we were a child and could not control where we are, but now as an adult in therapy, with recovery, like all the things, I have maps, I have GPS, I'm driving the clutch. I can drive both of them with the gas and the brake. Right? Like, learning how to drive, literally. I have a house full of teenagers getting their licenses, and so it's been chaos with this.
• 47:45
  So this metaphor is really working for me today. But all the things and also like therapy is still my seat belt, therapy is still my airbags. Like I am safe enough, even though what I'm doing is still terrifying.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: Exactly. I that's exact that's such a good metaphor. The idea that therapy is a safety belt and the rest of life is where we're using the gas and the brake, right? And that we can use it now for our own good instead of for running. Right?
• 48:19
  Or for fear. I especially find it important understanding this gas and break as we're using in our discussion in parent ing because so much past thinking is brought up when I parent. You know what I mean? Does that make sense to you?
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: Yes. Like
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: when I was a child, the parenting that I grew up with. So I have to think beyond that, you know. And that's the pushing on the gas. There's good I find in parenting, there's a break in the gas all the time going on. And then I have to live with that and I have to move forward and and make and make the best choices that I'm actually able to do at the time.
• 49:09
  Sometimes I've been better than others. Yeah.
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: I think anyone who's parenting, even other people's children in support relationships, absolutely this is valid. And I love the application because it's such an example. Like, I know if we apply this relationally as parents, the same thing still works. If I shout, that is going to put the brakes on everything. Everything's going to stop.
• 49:41
  And also, if I have a kiddo about to run into traffic, that's an okay time to shout. That's different than when we're in the kitchen cooking together or whatever. Right?
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah. That's exactly If
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: I get curious and ask questions, that adds gas to the relationship. They will start talking with me more, and we talk about things instead of the shouting, right? And also because I'm the parent, I can't do that in a way that is the same as with adult friends because they're not responsible for tending to me. So I still have to put some breaks on that, some boundaries of what is appropriate for them and what is healthy and what is their developmental level and all the things. I think that's a beautiful example.
• 50:35
  I've seen the same thing going back to what we were talking about with parasocial relationships. The same thing applies with, exposing our vulnerability, how much is okay, that gas pedal being down where it's applied in healthy ways, and where are those boundaries that we need to put the brakes on? There's so much vulnerability. Even the last few years on the podcast talking about sexuality, for example, it's not that I need every single listener to be gay, and it's not that every other single listener had to grow up with purity culture or sexual abuse. Not everybody even has those kinds of abuse.
• 51:15
  And also if we had any kind of deprivation or the good that was missing, we did not have boundaries. Our bodies were invaded. Regardless of your sexuality, you probably didn't get, the support and discussions and talking and even biologic information to to figure all that out as you're growing up. So going back to do that on the podcast and do it publicly so people can have conversations with their therapist about no one ever told me this about my body, or I never knew about this about relationships or sexuality, wherever you are on whatever. And also that's not the same as like, I'm not acting that out with anybody.
• 51:59
  Like, I don't need to actually have sex to talk about sex. We don't have to reenact wounding our sexualized children as littles and make, we can be vulnerable without exploiting those little folks inside. I think that's something we have to be careful about with, with parasocial stuff, whether it's like LEAP or system speak or social media, healing together, all these things where it is safe to be little, but we don't do adult things with littles and really being careful and protecting that. That is a time to have the brakes on, even if also we're being vulnerable and saying it is a safe place for littles because littles are a part of who we are and we welcome them. There's so many applications to that.
• 52:49
  And I can't believe we ran with that metaphor today. Thank you so much.
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: It's a good day.
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: Can I ask when by this time this airs, it will be January, February, March, somewhere in there?
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: Will there be a place or a website I can put in the show notes for people to see some of these pictures or to find out more about LEAP, or how can people follow-up with you?
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: The the LEAP website is www.traumacontinuumleap, and I can send that to you in an email.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. I'll put it in
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: the show notes. Thank you.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: And then should I give you should I give people my email?
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: You don't have to. They could contact you through LEEP.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Let's do it that way.
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: With the gas and the brakes.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: I'm so bad at setting boundaries. I'm so I'm like, you were talking about it, I'm like, that's a good way to look at it, Sandy.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: You should listen to Emma. Oh my goodness. It's so intense. I don't mean
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: to be so graphic. I just feel like I've had a year of
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, it wasn't you being graphic at all. It's a conversation that's so good to have. It's just that I don't get to have these conversations so much. You know what I mean? That's what's so valuable about talking with you is that I learned so much and I have so much to hold moving forward.
• 54:22
  And I can't, I just can't thank you enough. It's been, I mean, know I was supposed to be here telling you about leap, but I learned so much, Emma. This was a great conversation.
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: Oh, you're so kind. Was there anything else that you wanted to share with folks or anything else you really wanted to say while you were here? I I wanna make sure there's lots of space for your voice.
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes. No. I think I'm I think I'm fine. I think I hit all the leap notes. You got everything in there.
• 54:54
  You know, photo voice photos to come soon. And I'll let you know. I'll let I'll email you when when and where the exhibit's gonna be. I don't think I'm gonna be at ISS ISSTD next year, even though that's gonna be in your neck of the woods.
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: It will be close.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Because I'd like to see you. I'd like to, like, meet you and shake your hand. I remember when you got up, you got up. This is when I first saw, I, I this is when I first saw you.
• 55:28
  You got up and you said to Judith Thurman, I'd really like you on my podcast. And I'm like, who's that?
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: She came on the podcast and I'm so I glad of listened
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: to it. Yes. Great. She wasn't that a wonderful talk? Thank you, Emma.
• 55:47
  Oh, am I gonna hear this before you, broadcast it?
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: We absolutely can send it to you because it's a big file. It's a great question. I can even leave this in the recording just so people know how we do it. Because it's a big file, I'll send it on a Google Drive link. Okay.
• 56:04
  And then you can listen to it. I can't add anything, but if there's anything you want taken out, I just need to know the time stamp.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: And that's super easy, not a problem. You're not making it hard for me. You can listen to it. You can let anyone else you need to listen, like, whether that's in therapy or the hospital, whatever, anyone who wants to support you to make sure it feels comfortable to you. Okay.
• 56:30
  And then I know let me look really quick because I can tell you. Right now it's scheduled for so this is August, but it's scheduled the podcast is scheduled so far in advance that right now it's scheduled for February 2.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: Okay. I might I'm scheduled to do a webinar for ISTD, a webcast. So web a a webinar, I think, is what they call them. And it won't be until November.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: This year or next year?
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: Next year. I have the date somewhere. And that's that's gonna be me sharing my story basically, maybe sharing photo voice, but it's gonna be an open basically, ask what you wanna ask to a person with DID. So anybody open question and answer type thing. So that'll be interesting.
• 57:37
  I hope you come.
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: That would be so delighting. Like, I will be so glad to come. I will be so delighted to come. I would tell you to be ready. Presented for ISSTD the plenary last year.
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: I remember, yeah.
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: And that was a clinical presentation. I talked a lot about lived experience in it, but it was a clinical presentation. And the questions they asked were like, what is your treatment plan? What is was like, that is not any of your business. Someone's someone literally, it was a very elderly man, raised his hand and asked, why do we care?
• 58:20
  And I just said, like, at first, it took me a minute to catch my breath, but then I just said, Because they're coming to your office.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: Good answer.
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: Because they're coming to your answer. That's why we care. So it's really tricksy. And also prepare for some people just to not understand. One thing that's happened for me is that because I want to be a good therapist and because all of this was happening that I could witness with lived experience, I did publish that about plurality and what, like, what was happening and where it came from and why it's a thing, because they're coming to our office, right?
• 58:56
  And I want clinicians to be aware of it. And what happened is people who didn't wanna hear that in the first place now think I'm like that advocate. I have nothing wrong with plurality of anywhere on the continuum, but I don't identify as plural, and it's not actually my lived experience to identify in that. Like, my and that's all public since the beginning of the podcast. My DID is traumagenic.
• 59:25
  I wanna get better. I am distressed by because it interferes with my functioning. It interferes with these things. So, like, judgment. Like, good for y'all for being able to make such a I'm positive just not there yet.
• 59:42
  I'm trying every day just to alive myself. So, like so so just I didn't mean to go off on that tangent as well. We've had a lot of tangents today, you and me. But I mean, just prepare for people what you are offering. People will do all kinds of things with it.
• 1:00:02
  So just keep being you, and that is enough. That is enough. The rest of it, for me, I just Al Anon that. I go to Al Anon because of the online world.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: I will. I'll remember that.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: I'll Al Anon that. I'll Al Anon that. That's you know, that doesn't have to that's
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: out there. I hold up my hands. They can't see that. I'm holding up my hands like an invisible fence, like an invisible bubble around me because it's on the outside of me. And sometimes I have to remind myself.
• 1:00:35
  Because when I get hate mails or stalkers or things, or abuses happen, I think, Oh, this is because of me. It proves I am bad. It proves what they said when I was Or it's a consequence because I left that shiny, happy church. And so that's what happens is that dialogue becomes personalized or internalized, but that is false. It is not true.
• 1:00:56
  It is. No one told me that. I just made it up. It is on the other side of the bubble. It is not mine.
• 1:01:03
  It is on the other side of that fence. It is not mine. You're amazing, and I'm so glad I got to meet you today.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: I am so glad I got to meet you. I might need you after I do the webinar to have, like, a session.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: For
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: real. For real. The magic back.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: I wanna be clear that the majority of experiences were entirely positive. And even when people did things because of ignorance, they were quick to listen and respond and apologize or repair that in the ways they could. Just those blips on the radar, it will happen because humanity, not because ISSTD or because of wherever you're presenting or sharing. Just because people it's a rough world of peopling right now.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: True. I know. God. We can't go down that rabbit hole. Right?
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: Was there anything else you wanted to share today?
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: No. Thank you.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
• 1:02:57
  We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too, being human together. So, yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.