Latest / Blocked and Reported / Episode 244: The Breitbart Effect (with Ben Domenech)

Transcript

Episode 244: The Breitbart Effect (with Ben Domenech) · Blocked and Reported

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Blocked and Reported.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Katie Herzog,
• 0:09
  and joining me today while Jesse is picking out his very finest
• 0:13
  cargo shorts for
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: the inaugural ball,
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: we have Ben Dominic.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Ben is a political commentator.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: He writes for, among other places, The Spectator World.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: He also has his own very entertaining substat called The Transom.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Ben, welcome to Blocked and Reported.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: It is great to be here,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: Katie,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm happy to be with 70% of my favorite podcast,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: the other 25% obviously being the guests who aren't Jesse,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: and the other 5% being Jesse,
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: but really only when he's complaining about pigeons and things like that.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Totally fair.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Totally fair.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Again, if I could fire the man, I would.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad to have you here today.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: We have a lot to talk about.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: In the second half of the show,
• 0:54
  you're going to lead me through some semi-recent history and
• 0:57
  explain how a dick pic
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: led to Steve Bannon's takeover of the American right.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very excited to hear that.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: But first, let's talk about politics.
• 1:05
  So this episode will go out to the public on Inauguration Day,
• 1:08
  and you are a big C conservative.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, you may be our first...
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: real conservative guests on the show,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: aside from our bevy of gay libertarians,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: but they don't really count.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you're also a regular listener to the show.
• 1:21
  So I'm curious,
• 1:22
  Ben,
• 1:23
  on a scale of one to John Oliver,
• 1:26
  how wrong are we about conservatives?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think you get conservatives right most of the time.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think here's quite honestly what it is.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's that you're –
• 1:40
  Your North Carolina coding allows you to understand
• 1:45
  conservatives really well.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've met a few.
• 1:48
  And I think Jesse's hyper-online coding allows him to
• 1:54
  understand online conservatives,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: but not like real-life conservatives at all.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: He has never met one.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: While I do appreciate the opportunity to come on,
• 2:04
  I still think you haven't really had a big C conservative
• 2:08
  because – You don't count?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because my favorite – I'm a country mouse libertarian,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: like small L.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like my favorite House member is Thomas Massey,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: a guy who can –
• 2:23
  uh,
• 2:23
  Bluetooth,
• 2:24
  uh,
• 2:24
  program,
• 2:24
  his own,
• 2:25
  you know,
• 2:25
  chicken coop to like move.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then also like has some very strong opinions about the fed.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: but you know,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: country mouse libertarians look a lot like conservatives and then,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: and really during the tea party,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: they basically were because it's homeschooling,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: it's guns,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: there's some raw milk,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: there's some gold,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: but they're,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: but they're less interested in like the city libertarian type.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: there's not a lot in common between,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Nick Gillespie getting engaged at burning hands.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: and your average Ron Paul rural supporter.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: But what I will say is that what I appreciate about your program,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: and I don't mean to blow smoke up you,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: but what I really appreciate is I think that you're
• 3:06
  Your research is thorough enough that it offers a really
• 3:10
  interesting perspective on things.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: And to be quite honest,
• 3:13
  I was surprised at how much of a percentage of your listeners
• 3:17
  when you did that
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: little poll were Kamala Harris supporters because I didn't realize how –
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: how much I was in a niche and,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: and maybe that's just a sign that I haven't evangelized your show enough.
• 3:29
  So I really think of it as an indictment of myself that I
• 3:32
  haven't been out there
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: talking enough about,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: about your program,
• 3:35
  because it is one of the only podcasts that I listened to that
• 3:38
  deals in the area where,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: I work and focus on most of my time.
• 3:42
  Uh,
• 3:43
  the stuff I listen to is comedy and sports and like Hollywood
• 3:47
  industry stuff.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Podcasting is mostly an escape for me,
• 3:51
  but your podcast actually does inform me and fills a lot of the
• 3:55
  niches in a more
• 3:57
  intelligent way than I think the old Reply All did back before
• 4:02
  it self-immolated.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, we can get the compliments out early.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: I will take the compliments.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Ben.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I am a little disappointed.
• 4:13
  I thought that maybe we were going to have our first registered
• 4:15
  Republican on the show,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: but apparently not.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: No, unfortunately not.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: I left the party all the way back in 06 over the Iraq war.
• 4:24
  But I will say I've voted for many,
• 4:25
  many Republicans since then and more Republicans.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly, I think the last time I voted for a Democrat was Jim Webb.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, it's been a long time.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you are married to a Republican royalty.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: You are married to Meghan McCain.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And your daughter has possibly the most – well, maybe libertarian name.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Your daughter is actually named Liberty.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Liberty Sage is our oldest.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Sage.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's sort of like a Waldorf name.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: Sage.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's a reference to Zane Grey's Riders of the Purple Sage.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's a Western-coded thing.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: No, I will say –
• 5:04
  Megan is in that – in kind of a class by herself though because
• 5:07
  most of the daughters,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: they flee the Republican Party.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly the Bush daughters have the Huntsman's, et cetera.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Those types, they – Half the Trumps.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: But it's funny because the –
• 5:22
  The party that existed in 2006,
• 5:26
  2007,
• 5:28
  2008,
• 5:26
  it's been gone for a long time.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: The one that exists now is incredibly unified,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: maybe more than it has been at any point since,
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: I guess you could say post-911W,
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: but really since 1984.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's all the coalitions.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's the SOCONs, it's the TRADCATs, it's the Supply Siders, it's the
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's the litany from Ferris Bueller.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: They all think he's a righteous dude.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: I want to get into that in a little bit.
• 6:06
  But first,
• 6:06
  you wrote perhaps my favorite passage of political commentary
• 6:10
  in the past year.
• 6:11
  Ben,
• 6:12
  will you do me the honor of reading from – this is your
• 6:15
  Substack post from last November.
• 6:16
  It was titled,
• 6:17
  Matt Gaetz is a vile sex pest and any senator who votes for him
• 6:20
  owns that.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Subhead, crush some Viagra, pour the Red Bull in your veins.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Will you read the first paragraph from that?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I will.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I have not done this before.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, by the way, Astroglide can't go stale.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 6:54
  The fact that he boasted on the floor to multiple – my gay male
• 6:58
  friends can defend
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: me on that point.
• 7:00
  The fact that he boasted on the floor to multiple colleagues in
• 7:02
  the House of
• 7:03
  Representatives of his methods of crushing Viagra and high-test
• 7:06
  Red Bull to
• 7:07
  maintain his erection through his ordiastic evenings is perhaps
• 7:10
  the least offensive
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: of his many crimes against womanhood and Christian faith.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: The man has less principles than your average fentanyl-addicted hobo.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: He likes them underage, and he's not ashamed about it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: Matt Gaetz isn't just your average extreme Florida MAGA man.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: He is a hypocritical ass with the worst Botox money can buy,
• 7:28
  pursuing an ever thinner nose and higher cheekbones at every
• 7:31
  opportunity like a
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: real housewife gone bad for fillers.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: Every Republican in Washington has an opinion about Matt Gaetz,
• 7:37
  and 99% of those opinions are keep Matt Gaetz away from my wife
• 7:40
  slash daughter
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: slash friend and anyone I care about.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, Ben, first question.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: That is not the typical tone of my newsletter.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: I will just say to any listeners out there who are –
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thinking of subscribing to The Transom, please go to thetransom.com.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: But do not expect that on a daily basis.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're not going to get your takedown of Pete Hegseth?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I like Pete.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, you do, really.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Are you concerned about his,
• 8:03
  what appears to be the very legitimate claims that he is a
• 8:06
  terrible alcoholic?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've known Pete for, since 2011.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: And what I will say is that Pete's story is,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: typical of a lot of guys in their 40s who did the,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 8:20
  War on Terror stint and came back and had some really dark
• 8:22
  stuff to get through.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: that ever since he really settled down with his now wife,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: moved away from New York City to Nashville,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: that he really sort of straightened out and flew right.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's the impression of a lot of the people who...
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: have known him for a long time.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't describe him as being a close friend or anything like that,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: but as a colleague,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: he was never anything but professional to me.
• 8:46
  I think that he ultimately has impressed the senators enough
• 8:50
  that he's probably
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: going to get through.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: One thing to keep in mind, though, is that
• 8:57
  there's always an unexpected person who goes down gates you
• 8:59
  know was like from day
• 9:01
  one it was clear that gates was going to have a problem um
• 9:04
  though i i was even
• 9:05
  surprised by how quickly he went down but there's always one in
• 9:09
  those cabinet who
• 9:09
  you know illegal nanny or you know tax issues or you know
• 9:15
  something like that and
• 9:15
  they end up having to withdraw but i personally don't think
• 9:18
  it's going to be pete i
• 9:18
  think it's going to be somebody else you think it'll be tulsi
• 9:21
  uh some more about
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: her cult will come out
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't think so.
• 9:26
  And you don't know this,
• 9:29
  Katie,
• 9:29
  but Tulsi happens to be Liberty's godmother.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm a little biased.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is Liberty in the cult as well?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: No,
• 9:37
  the only cult that Liberty is in at the moment is that I have
• 9:41
  been reading The
• 9:42
  Hobbit to her and she learned about hobbits and she now wants
• 9:44
  to talk to everyone else.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: About hobbits all the time.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: So she's already set on the Tolkien cult,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: having moved away from the Nightmare on Christmas cult,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: which we have had to watch at least,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: 500 times.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Better than Frozen.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Ben.
• 10:03
  So we're recording this at the beginning of the second Trump administration.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: The right wing is clearly ascendant in both politics and culture.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: In many ways, your side is winning, at least for the moment.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it tends to happen.
• 10:16
  So the infighting also appears to be ascendant,
• 10:18
  at least from my observations on the outside.
• 10:20
  Now,
• 10:20
  you said that people are united around Trump,
• 10:22
  but I want to hear about the drama.
• 10:24
  So broadly speaking,
• 10:25
  will you describe what is going over there on Team Red?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: What are the factions?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Who is fighting who and for what?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: So the big factions right now are – when I say – I should back up.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: When I say that the right is unified,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: what I mean is you're a normie Republican voter,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: meaning that there's not a lot of big disputes.
• 10:46
  You don't have the finger pointing between the fiscal
• 10:50
  conservatives and the social conservatives.
• 10:53
  The really aggressive neoconservative sort of portion is all on
• 10:56
  the Democrat side now,
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: and so there's not as much there,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: though there are some name-calling around that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: I do think that the big splits that exist are basically between
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: the tech pro quotient that has taken over,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: the money side of the Republican party,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: essentially becoming the new donor class for Republicans and expect to,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: they hired the money,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: they expect to have results for that.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you see that they want their H1B visas.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: They want their H1B visas.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: They want their issues prioritized.
• 11:30
  Um,
• 11:30
  you know,
• 11:30
  the,
• 11:31
  they want the kind of,
• 11:33
  of regulatory,
• 11:34
  regulatory pullback,
• 11:36
  uh,
• 11:36
  and,
• 11:37
  allowance for mergers that they've been waiting on for quite
• 11:40
  some time during the
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: Biden administration.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: And they basically want to get whatever they want.
• 11:44
  They feel like,
• 11:45
  you know,
• 11:45
  our issues should matter the most because we gave the most money.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: We got this.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: That is at direct odds with a lot of the priorities of the,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: NatCon wing,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: however you want to describe that.
• 11:58
  But if they have a representative on Capitol Hill,
• 12:01
  that's somebody like Josh Hawley.
• 12:03
  who is very much more open to working with the likes of
• 12:06
  Elizabeth Warren on
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: regulatory issues,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: has gone after,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: and criticized big business for a lot of different things.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: His priority are things like the child tax credit,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: bunches of other like what you would typically think of as like
• 12:20
  SOCON family-focused priorities and the like,
• 12:24
  and he thinks those things should come first.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then you also have,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 12:28
  a major dispute that really hasn't been tested yet within the
• 12:33
  foreign policy
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: national security world.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: The
• 12:36
  The way that Elon looks at China versus the way that someone
• 12:41
  like Rubio looks at
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: China versus the way that someone like Rand Paul looks at China,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: it's all different.
• 12:47
  And it doesn't have this – there's not a coherent foreign
• 12:50
  policy because Trump is
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: basically a knee-jerk Jacksonian if you piss him off.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: He threatens you and he likes killing terrorists,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: but he doesn't really have a coherent philosophy behind that.
• 13:03
  I think that one of the things that was interesting early on
• 13:06
  was when Trump said
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: that Mike Pompeo would not be in his administration.
• 13:10
  No one thought Nikki Haley was going to get in because she
• 13:12
  obviously ran against him,
• 13:13
  et cetera.
• 13:13
  But Pompeo being out when he was viewed as kind of a loyal
• 13:17
  soldier for Trump the
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: first time around was a surprise to a lot of people.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Then he ends up – he names Rubio to Sextate.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: He names Mike Waltz to his team.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: And he names, obviously, Tulsi.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: You have very different perspectives on those.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: And what I do think is going to end up from that is –
• 13:37
  Conflicts are going to emerge once these people get in their
• 13:39
  jobs with finger
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: pointing over,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: he's just a neocon or well,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: he just doesn't understand the world or well,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: she is a crypto Russian or what have you.
• 13:53
  And that's a problem generally,
• 13:55
  but it's particularly a problem when you've got a
• 13:58
  A coup in South Korea and Syria just fell and Iran shaking
• 14:03
  their sword and the
• 14:04
  Ukraine war to roll back and everyone's scared of what China's
• 14:08
  going to do next and
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: a host of foreign policy problems that are far flung.
• 14:14
  Not just,
• 14:14
  you know,
• 14:15
  things that are happening in Mexico and in South America.
• 14:17
  And so I think that that's a whole mess of stuff that he's
• 14:20
  going to have to deal
• 14:21
  with as president early on with a team that is clearly not
• 14:25
  going to be united given
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: their ideological backgrounds.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: They do have strong philosophies and they are at odds with each other.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll have to see who wins out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 14:33
  it seems like we're in a position where the person who is best
• 14:37
  able to flatter
• 14:38
  Trump is actually going to be the person to determine our
• 14:41
  international policy,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: which is a little terrifying.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: So you're saying J.D.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: Vance.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: He'll blink those eyelashes.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Can we talk about the portraits for a second?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Have you seen the portraits?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: I have not, no.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my gosh.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Katie, take just a second to Google official portraits of Trump and J.D.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Vance.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Just do that for me.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me what you see.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: So Trump's...
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Trump looks like he's about to do the you're fired thing in J.D.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Vance.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he always looks like he's wearing eyeliner.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: But at this point, he looks like he's about he's like smiling.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's sort of counterbalances it.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: But he looks like he's going to go to a rave.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: He's like that level of eyeliner.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: He's thinking about the rave he's about to go to.
• 15:24
  The thing that is so striking about this is Trump had a very
• 15:27
  normal presidential
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: approach last time around where he was just smiling.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: This time around, he is clearly imitating the mugshot.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: He is clearly imitating the mugshot.
• 15:36
  And keep in mind,
• 15:36
  this is going to be the thing that goes up into the DMVs across
• 15:39
  the country.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: He's like about to scold you for not passing your driver's license.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Just him staring at you.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you're really tapped into the actual – the conservatives who matter,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: the republicans who matter.
• 15:53
  But I want to talk about the ones who don't matter,
• 15:55
  which is the online rights.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: I wish that I could believe that the right would just,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: govern and govern well.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: I also wish the left would do that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: But from what I can see,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: from my perspective as an outsider,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: getting most of my knowledge about the right from,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: frankly,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: from Twitter,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: is that the right is obsessed,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: as obsessed with identity and grievance politics as the left.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And as they gain more cultural power,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're just getting nuttier.
• 16:23
  And you see some of the same patterns that really hobbled the
• 16:26
  left repeating themselves,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: at least on the online,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Purity spirals, call outs, cancel culture, identity politics.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 16:32
  Chris Ruffo is in the shitter this week because he suggested
• 16:36
  that people stop
• 16:38
  complaining about not being able to get jobs because of H-1B
• 16:42
  visa holders and go
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: get a job managing a Chipotle for $100,000 a year.
• 16:48
  Even Mark Zuckerberg's big speech last week about what Mehta
• 16:53
  had done wrong and how
• 16:55
  rapidly he rolled back these DEI initiatives and took tampons
• 16:59
  out of the men's room,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: all of that stuff.
• 17:00
  It reminded me of 2020 when you saw CEOs apologizing for the
• 17:05
  past sense of racism.
• 17:06
  And it really wasn't that long ago when Trump and his cronies
• 17:09
  were accusing
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Zuckerberg of being a globalist.
• 17:12
  And now the winds have shifted and he's saying he's sorry and
• 17:14
  will do better.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the substance may be different, but I see the style as very similar.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think about that?
• 17:22
  Well,
• 17:22
  I think you've – certainly you've gotten onto something here,
• 17:25
  which is that –
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Conservatives are a much cheaper date when it comes to this stuff.
• 17:31
  Think about the billions and billions of dollars that poured
• 17:34
  out of corporate
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: America in commitments toward social justice and the racial reckoning and
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: everything like that.
• 17:43
  Conservatives,
• 17:44
  you just have to go on Joe Rogan,
• 17:46
  change your outfit,
• 17:47
  and say –
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Put on a chain.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Put on a chain and be like, no, I'm really into Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: And all is forgiven.
• 17:53
  Did you see the clip of Zuckerberg on Rogan when he tells Rogan
• 17:57
  that he's into bow hunting?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: And Rogan asks him what kind of bow he – and he has no fucking idea.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like he has very clearly never picked up a bow in his life.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: I went to – It's like the hardest question Rogan has ever asked a guest.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Look –
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: I actually have some sympathy for Zuckerberg.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: I was invited to dinner at his house once along with some other people.
• 18:19
  And it was just clear how this is a nerd who never wanted to
• 18:25
  have to talk to people this much.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's the downside of doing what he does.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think that in this sense...
• 18:34
  What you see from conservatives at this moment is they are so
• 18:40
  eager to lean into
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: the popularity,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: for lack of a better term,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: that they currently have,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: that they have some actual –
• 18:50
  cultural cachet in the moment that it's not completely uncool
• 18:55
  to be on the right.
• 18:57
  It's a new experience for them because they haven't had it in
• 19:00
  such a long time.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And for people of,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: the elder millennial,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: latter Gen X generation,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: they never really experienced that because even when they were winning,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: it wasn't with something that was cool.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that the
• 19:17
  I think that the reality is that they are going through this
• 19:21
  new experience,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: and there's always this shakeup that happens about,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: so who is going to be the new signifier of where we go?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Donald Trump, this was his last election.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like he's a lame duck,
• 19:34
  but he doesn't have – everyone's kind of focused on right now
• 19:38
  what's going to come next.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: At least that's what I think the smarter ones are.
• 19:43
  And it's unclear the direction that they're going to take in a
• 19:46
  lot of ways.
• 19:47
  There was that libertarian moment that happened a while back
• 19:50
  that never really caught on.
• 19:52
  The NatCon kind of movement would like it to be their moment,
• 19:56
  but I think that's kind of forced.
• 19:59
  And one thing that I do think is really interesting about what
• 20:02
  you said about the
• 20:03
  way that things are kind of resembling the language of DEI and
• 20:08
  the like is –
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Let's take an example just about the L.A.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: fires for a minute.
• 20:14
  The fact that so much attention was paid almost immediately to
• 20:20
  the leadership of the L.A.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: fire department that was –
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: female,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: et cetera,
• 20:27
  and that there were people quoting and clipping some comment
• 20:31
  that one of them made
• 20:32
  about the insult of being asked whether they could carry
• 20:37
  somebody's husband and
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: that kind of thing.
• 20:39
  They immediately went in that direction,
• 20:41
  whereas from my perspective,
• 20:43
  the actual
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: answer is,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: and Derek Thompson has a pretty good podcast about this recently,
• 20:48
  is about the fact that California was not consistently clearing underbrush,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: that they had to lean on all these private things.
• 20:57
  The New York Times had a profile of one of the guys who runs
• 20:59
  this with all these
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: volunteers to do it because they don't have the resources for it.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: And those are basic government
• 21:07
  sort of problems that normie Republicans who care about public
• 21:11
  policy should be focused on.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: But the online Republicans,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: the online right,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: they're focused on,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: there are too many lesbians in this fire department.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Which I should say, lesbians are the males of females.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: There are butches out there who could carry a fire truck on their back.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: You don't
• 21:31
  You don't want like a witchy lesbian or like a straight lesbian
• 21:34
  driving the big rig,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: but a big old butch who knows her way around a harness?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, give her a hose.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like of all of the things to complain about.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: You said it, not me, but I completely agree.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if it were gay men, we'd have an issue.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: There could be.
• 21:51
  But one of the things that I think is going to be interesting
• 21:54
  about this is there's –
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: When you're outside, when you're not in power, trolling is really fun.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because you don't have to take any responsibility for it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: You can just troll and troll and troll.
• 22:09
  But when you do get into power,
• 22:11
  you actually have to have responsibility for things.
• 22:14
  So when you go from being the person who's taking pot shots
• 22:19
  while doing an
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: interview with Theo Vaughn,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: when you're running for something as an outsider...
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's different than Mike Johnson saying,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: this is why we have to pass this big,
• 22:30
  terrible supplemental budget that is going to piss off
• 22:33
  everybody because of having
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: a thousand different things in it and nobody having time to read it.
• 22:38
  And that's what governance in D.C.,
• 22:40
  unfortunately,
• 22:41
  has looked like for a very long time.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I think as soon as you get into power, you start taking on water.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not sure that people are really –
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: prepared for what that means.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: They've been on the outside long enough culturally,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: even when Trump was president,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: they were on the outside culturally,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: that being on the inside has its own risks.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so seeing how that plays out will be really interesting.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to see what happens,
• 23:03
  like how much of the conservative apparatus will actually –
• 23:07
  will they actually pay
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: attention to the discourse,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: to the online discourse?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is one of the ways that I think the left really failed,
• 23:14
  was by paying attention to basically extremists and embracing
• 23:18
  positions – not everybody,
• 23:20
  but enough people with – enough notable people with power
• 23:23
  embracing these positions
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: that were incredibly unpopular to normies.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: They were paying too much attention.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: To Twitter.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: We saw this in Elizabeth Warren's campaign especially.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that the right will make that mistake as well?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are they going to be listening to Cat Turd?
• 23:39
  It's definitely possible because – and I would say I think that
• 23:43
  the ultimate
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: example of that obviously is Kamala Harris.
• 23:45
  Because her extreme positioning when she was running for
• 23:50
  president and was
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: navigating that primary –
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 23:55
  you all have talked about those horrible ACLU questionnaires
• 23:59
  that really put her in
• 24:01
  a major bind when she tried to pivot back to being the more law
• 24:06
  and order centrist candidate,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: which she had kind of come up as.
• 24:09
  She wasn't a culture warrior,
• 24:10
  tried to pretend to be one,
• 24:12
  and it came back to bite her.
• 24:14
  I think what's going to be tough for this administration to
• 24:20
  navigate to some extent is that
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you get elected based on appealing...
• 24:28
  more than you ever have in recent years to this demographic of
• 24:33
  young men that were
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: so critical for Trump this time around,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: the UFC audience,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: the podcast audience.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 24:40
  this really was the podcast election in a way that you can talk
• 24:44
  about 08 as being
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: the Facebook election and 16 being the Twitter election.
• 24:50
  I think that this really was an election where you saw that
• 24:53
  shift happen and happen dramatically.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: But their priorities,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: the priorities of young men,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: are not necessarily going to line up with what this admin wants to do.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that when they run into problems with that demo,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: it's going to be a question about,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: do we listen to their signifiers?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Do we listen when…
• 25:14
  Joe Rogan is critical about something or when that sort of
• 25:18
  cohort of people are
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: upset about something that's happening.
• 25:22
  Do you listen to them,
• 25:23
  let's say,
• 25:24
  if you have to fire RFK or something like that?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of the dicey thing.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: You live and die by that coalition approach.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: that you built,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: and you need them now to navigate things going forward,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: given how much you've lost among the college-educated,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: wealthier,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: suburbanite set during the course of the past couple of years.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't know if they have the capacity to do that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to be an act of political skill, and
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: As much as Trump has shown his ability to do this,
• 25:58
  it's not like that's something that just transfers by osmosis
• 26:02
  to other Republicans.
• 26:03
  You were complimenting Tham Tillis the other day as being a
• 26:10
  pretty normie Republican,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: and I think he's a good example of this.
• 26:15
  He doesn't automatically just sort of get the Trump vibe just
• 26:19
  by being in the same room.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't have the riz.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, he does not have the riz.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so –
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: For someone like that,
• 26:26
  navigating these next couple of years and appealing to those
• 26:31
  same demographics is
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: going to be a challenge.
• 26:33
  And not everybody can go on these three-hour podcasts and be
• 26:37
  interesting or even be normal.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 26:40
  it strikes me that Republicans and Democrats as institutions
• 26:44
  have the same problem,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: which is there's no bench.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the problem is, too, that the bench –
• 26:51
  given the fact that we've got basically a house that swings
• 26:55
  back and forth on the
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: basis of about 20 seats in the middle,
• 27:00
  the bench is increasingly more radicalized by where they're
• 27:05
  getting elected.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: And the exceptions,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: obviously,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: to that on the Republican side,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: and the reason that they have the majority,
• 27:11
  is that they've been able to win some of these key seats in New
• 27:14
  York and California,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: in blue states where they find red territory.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that that's...
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: A good example of this is that showdown the other day,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you saw it,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: between Jasmine Crockett and Nancy Mace.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: They got into it in a committee hearing.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's entertaining.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: You can look it up later.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: But real housewife stuff.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: But it is –
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you're someone who is technically kind of in a normie district,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: which Mace is,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: and Crockett is from the Dallas area,
• 27:51
  you can still end up being incentivized to be more extreme in
• 27:56
  your behavior,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: to just go on camera over and over again.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: fundraise,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: get into beefs,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: not really legislate all that much,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: have maybe one or two things that you're pushing.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see any solution to that in the offing.
• 28:13
  There's not someone who's coming along who necessarily looks
• 28:16
  like they're all that
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: interested in legislating all that much.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: You have people who are interested in foreign policy,
• 28:22
  you have people who are interested in specific issues related
• 28:24
  to their districts,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: but you don't really have people who are
• 28:28
  interested in legislating in the way that you used to have that
• 28:31
  allows you to kind
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: of go across party lines and actually do something like,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: fix American health care.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: They want to be – everybody wants to be an entertainer, an influencer.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than a governor.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is not healthy politics.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: I want to shift a bit and talk about the fires in California.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: So first of all, obviously horrific.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Just the scale of the destruction is just apocalyptic.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: The cleanup itself will be toxic.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know many people who've had to evacuate,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: a few people who lost their homes,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: including our friend Megan Dahm.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: She lost everything except for her giant dog, Hugo.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank God.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: The whole thing is just so horrifying.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I can't imagine being there.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Although I suspect that
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: On the ground,
• 29:12
  people are experiencing something very different from those of
• 29:15
  us who are observing
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: this from far away,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: not just the loss and the trauma,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: but also the best of humanity.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: So after Hurricane Helene,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: people I spoke to in Western North Carolina,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: my neighbors and friends,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: they all said the same thing,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: which was that the community came together to help each other.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone was volunteering.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Restaurants were giving away meals.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: People were opening their homes to strangers.
• 29:34
  And so in the midst of all that destruction,
• 29:36
  there were still these bright spots.
• 29:38
  And I would guess that's happening in LA too,
• 29:39
  although it's LA,
• 29:40
  so maybe not.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: That said, that is definitely not the vibe online.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And while you may assume,
• 29:48
  people may assume that a massive horrific event like this would
• 29:51
  make people put
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: aside their differences and say,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 29:53
  we just need to work together to make sure this never happens
• 29:56
  again anywhere.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: In this case, we can't even agree on the source of the problem.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 30:00
  my leftist friends are posting memes about capitalism and
• 30:04
  pistachio oligarchs who,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: for the record,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: did not actually steal California's water supply.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Did you see this?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: I did not see the pistachio oligarchs thing, no.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: They need a lot of water.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: They do need a lot of water,
• 30:19
  but just because some random communist posts a meme about the
• 30:22
  almond oligarchs
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: stealing the water supply does not mean it happened.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'll post links in the show notes.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 30:27
  my leftist friends seem convinced that murdering oil company
• 30:30
  CEOs and landlords
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: will solve this.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, there's a ton of misinformation from the right as well.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Donald Trump himself,
• 30:36
  he posted some bullshit about environmental protections for a
• 30:39
  fish called the smelt,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: which he apparently really hates.
• 30:41
  The smelt has fuck all to do with the LA fires or the water
• 30:43
  situation in California.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, other right-wingers like Libs of TikTok blame DEI, wokeness.
• 30:50
  Chaya Rychik would be tweeting about wokeness with one hand and
• 30:53
  grabbing her go bag
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: with the other.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: She actually lives in LA.
• 30:57
  You know,
• 30:57
  it's just a lot of assumptions are being made about who is to
• 31:01
  blame for this.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: And Ben,
• 31:03
  with the giant caveat that neither of us live in California or
• 31:06
  experts on the subject,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: was it the lesbians or the smell?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: What's your take on that?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Man, he does really hate that smelt.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know who got in his ear about the smelt, but it's, it's funny.
• 31:17
  It's just funny how much he hates something that barely even
• 31:19
  exists and is
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: essentially technically extinct.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: But,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: look,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think we need to get,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: we need to get Jake Geddes on the case,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: and he can,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: and he can figure all this out.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the, the, my, my feeling is that unfortunately, uh,
• 31:37
  When you have these disasters take place in areas that are
• 31:44
  inherently viewed as monopartisan,
• 31:48
  then it's the hardest thing to break through that blue wall to
• 31:52
  actually get the
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: answers that you need.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: You can get answers in places where
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Things are politically more fluid.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot of after-action look at Katrina,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: because that was a state where,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: even though you had Democrats in charge at the time,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: there was a changeover,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: and Bobby Jindal got elected,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: and there was some reaction,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: basically,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: to say,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: we've got to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again.
• 32:19
  And I think in this case,
• 32:21
  unfortunately,
• 32:23
  there was just so much passing of the buck.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, it's an easy thing to blame Gavin Newsom.
• 32:28
  But one thing I do think he's shown is that kind of similarly
• 32:31
  to what I was saying
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: about the incentives at the House level,
• 32:34
  he spends so much time on the national stage and has spent so
• 32:38
  much time in the last
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: year on the national stage.
• 32:40
  It's hard to not get the feeling,
• 32:42
  especially when he's done some of these interviews.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: He's talking to Anderson Cooper and the like where –
• 32:48
  Did he really have his eye on the ball on some of these things
• 32:51
  that a chief
• 32:52
  executive of a state really does need to look at or not to the
• 32:56
  level that he needs
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: to know how the fire system is going to respond in a situation like this,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: which is so unique.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And the wind situation in particular made it so unique.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: But it also was, I think, the kind of thing that...
• 33:14
  It's the kind of thing where you really hope to have somebody
• 33:16
  in charge who really
• 33:18
  is on the ball and knows what they're doing and can at least
• 33:21
  give people the
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: confidence that even if something goes wrong,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: they're going to do what it takes to address it.
• 33:28
  But there's also so much institutional bias toward covering
• 33:33
  your ass and not
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: actually having the answers,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: and things just keep going the way that they go,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: and then history repeats.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: My hope is that both my parents are foresters by training,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: and I learned a lot from them when I was a kid about this type of thing,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: mostly focused on how you manage wildfires and the like.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously,
• 33:56
  this was a situation that was much worse because it was so
• 33:59
  close to where people lived,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: and the loss was so much heavier because of that.
• 34:05
  as opposed to a wildfire in smaller communities and that kind
• 34:09
  of thing that we've
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: seen in the past in Northern California.
• 34:12
  I just hope that there's a real hard look at the environmental
• 34:15
  regulations involved
• 34:16
  and that they find the resources to address this and prevent
• 34:20
  something like this
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: horrible tragedy from happening in the future.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's just so much loss.
• 34:24
  And I'm not sure that we're going to see some of these places
• 34:27
  rebuilt for a very long time.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when you refer to the environmental regulations,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 34:32
  that's sort of one of the ironies here is that there are these
• 34:36
  very strict
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: regulations in California and elsewhere about prescribed burns.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And there's good reason for that.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're doing, I assume prescribed burns.
• 34:45
  There's been a lot of burning in Western North Carolina since
• 34:48
  I've been back here
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: over the past month,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: just because there's so much debris.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Smoke is horrible.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Smoke it like today.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's very smoky here.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: It fucking sucks.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody hates to experience that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: But if you don't do these burns,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: if you don't rake the forest,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: as Trump would say,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: this is what happens.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this was this was slightly different because it's an urban fire.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And of course,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: a big part of the conversation about this fire,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: at least on the left,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: has been about climate change.
• 35:11
  And I for the most part,
• 35:13
  I toe the party line when it comes to climate change.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to soup the Mona Lisa.
• 35:17
  I don't think the world is going to end in 2040,
• 35:20
  but I believe in human-caused climate change.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm worried about it,
• 35:24
  and I'm frustrated that some on the right continue to deny the
• 35:27
  existence of climate change,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: although I was happy to hear that Lee Zeldin,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Trump's pick for the EPA,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: is a believer.
• 35:34
  We can see this with our own eyes,
• 35:35
  and I'm not just talking about the fire.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Every year is the hottest year on record.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't snow like it used to when I was a kid, but
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: That said,
• 35:43
  I also have a lot of frustration with the conversation on the
• 35:47
  left because climate
• 35:48
  change has become the explanation du jour for every
• 35:52
  environmental disaster.
• 35:53
  And that obscures the very real policy failures that had led us
• 35:56
  to this point,
• 35:57
  all of which must be addressed to get out of this doom loop of
• 36:01
  ecological disaster.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: So in California...
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: land use,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: forest management,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: invasive species,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: the eucalyptus trees that are there that are these beautiful trees,
• 36:10
  they have oil in their veins and they explode in fires because
• 36:13
  they evolved in
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: Australia to spread their season fire.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: water resource management,
• 36:18
  limiting where people are allowed to build and the materials
• 36:21
  are allowed to build with,
• 36:22
  which I should say Southern California has actually done more
• 36:25
  to regulate than just
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: about anywhere else.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can't, you know, use wooden shingles there anymore.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: You'll get a ticket for having vegetation too close to your house.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: These measures were obviously not enough.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: But even if we could wave a magic wand today,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: right now,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: and transition to a zero-carbon economy,
• 36:42
  that would do nothing to change this problem right now or for
• 36:46
  decades to come.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: And climate change is clearly a part of the problem.
• 36:50
  A study that just came out of UCLA claims that fuel was 25%
• 36:54
  drier in Southern
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: California because of climate change.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's significant.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not the whole problem.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I just,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of frustration with every time I turn on the radio,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hearing,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just hear this repetition,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: climate change,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: climate change,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: climate change.
• 37:07
  And what I fear is that because you have people on the right
• 37:10
  talking about forest management,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: which is totally necessary.
• 37:12
  I mean,
• 37:13
  Trump literally said we need to rake the forest and he is
• 37:15
  actually correct about that.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 37:17
  And environmentalists and activists and the left media just
• 37:21
  sort of laughed at this,
• 37:22
  that this also becomes this sort of political thing where we
• 37:25
  can't actually get
• 37:26
  anything done because team blue is climate change and team red
• 37:29
  is forest raking.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's so fucking stupid.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I understand your frustration.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think that part of the reason that it's gotten so polarized,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: is so much of the initial decade of argument about climate in,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 37:49
  the sort of early 2000s framed climate in these dire
• 37:55
  revelation-esque moral terms
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: and also relied heavily on
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: international agreements,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: which from my perspective,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: the latter are very difficult to,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: obviously enforce.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: They're basically just commitments.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, they're really more like guidelines.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: and so it's,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: with a,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: with a rising China and everything that we've seen,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: happen across on other parts of the world,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: for Americans to look at it and say,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: basically,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: we could turn everything off tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's one aspect of it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think is that I'm a hopeful person,
• 38:40
  and I believe very strongly in the capabilities of Americans
• 38:47
  and science and
• 38:47
  advancement and technology to find solutions to things that we
• 38:52
  thought could never
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: be solved.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: And when it comes to
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: The way that we use energy in particular,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: and my sister,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: this is what she focuses on professionally here in Washington,
• 39:07
  is I very much am a believer in the idea that we need to be
• 39:12
  pursuing energy
• 39:13
  policies that are much better for the environment and much
• 39:16
  better for climate.
• 39:19
  Because we have these kind of team dynamics that you've been
• 39:22
  talking about,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: that's very difficult to achieve.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: And frankly,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: because people are still very paranoid about nuclear,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: they're very difficult to achieve.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so, anyway.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 39:33
  that's one of the things that's so frustrating is that this
• 39:34
  technology has existed
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: for decades.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: We have clean, safe technology.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Carbon neutral energy.
• 39:41
  It does exist and it doesn't require damming every river or
• 39:45
  blanketing the world
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: with solar panels.
• 39:48
  And there are,
• 39:48
  of course,
• 39:49
  structural and economic reasons that nuclear isn't more utilized.
• 39:53
  But one of the forces fighting against nuclear energy has been environmentalist.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I just like, what the fuck?
• 40:02
  Yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, it's just as effective as souping the Mona Lisa.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: What I'm hearing here,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: Katie,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: is that you need to check out Taylor Sheridan's latest series,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Landman.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I've been watching it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yes.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Have you gotten to his speech yet?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: His big speech about the wind turbines?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, this is a speech that I actually gave before I saw that.
• 40:29
  I was in this little debate the other day with someone about
• 40:32
  climate change.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're both believers in climate change,
• 40:34
  but I get frustrated when liberals sort of treat climate change
• 40:38
  like it's this
• 40:38
  villain or treat even oil companies like villains because
• 40:41
  obviously oil company –
• 40:43
  we know that Exxon and other oil companies did try to suppress
• 40:47
  knowledge on climate change.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: They have done some evil shit.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oil is inherently dirty.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's dangerous.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Wurs are fought over oil.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: People die over it.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Land and water are destroyed by the extraction and transportation of it.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe in the long run, the cost isn't worth it.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: But fossil fuels make our lives as we live them possible.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: You can't make plastic out of solar or wind energy.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: You can't make vehicles out of cornstarch.
• 41:14
  Like you might be able to make paper straws,
• 41:16
  but you can't make paper planes.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I guess you can't make paper planes, but you can't fly them.
• 41:21
  I know maybe someday that will change and we'll use sustainable
• 41:25
  bioplastics and
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: hemp and even heavy industry and manufacturing will go green.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: I want that.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm a tree hugger at heart,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: but right now we still need fossil fuels to function in this world.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: I want avocados in January, Katie.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, come on.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, no, it is –
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: You're completely right.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: that the interesting thing,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_03: and again,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: this is one of those ancient Vulcan proverb,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: only Nixon can go to China.
• 41:57
  The thing that is going to be really interesting about this administration,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: circling back to what you were talking about earlier about Trump.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: My view is this.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: For someone who is mostly not ideological,
• 42:08
  he does have ideological positions on certain things that have
• 42:11
  been consistent
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: throughout his career when it comes to trade,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: immigration,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: crime,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: etc.
• 42:19
  For someone who is one of the least ideological presidents that
• 42:22
  we've had in the modern era –
• 42:25
  I believe that Trump enters this second term wanting more than
• 42:28
  anything else to
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: emerge from it popular.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: He is currently popular.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: He's above 50%.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: He wants people to like him.
• 42:38
  And because he has this big gaping hole inside of him that was
• 42:43
  never filled with a
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: father's love.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: But here's the thing.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: That could lead to some interesting stuff.
• 42:50
  There was an argument that Ezra Klein made back right after he
• 42:55
  got elected in 16
• 42:56
  that what Democrats should really do – it was when Chuck
• 43:01
  Schumer was still on
• 43:01
  speaking terms with Trump – he said what Democrats should
• 43:04
  really do is they should
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: try to work with Trump around the traditional conservative interests.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: He said basically –
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Give him an updated version of Obamacare,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: slap Trumpcare on it,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: and he will be happy to run with something like that.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a little bit further than what the truth is,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not as much as you might think.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: And if someone were to come to him and say,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 43:27
  this is a legacy-making event that you're going to build more
• 43:30
  nuclear plants than
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: have ever been built by anybody in history,
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: all you need to do is turn it into a big fucking thing.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that he can slap his name on.
• 43:39
  And he is going to be way more open to it than you might think
• 43:43
  so long as he feels
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: like it's something that is going to be popular,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: which is why I think the undercurrent among some conservatives,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: including some people in like the J.D.
• 43:53
  Vance orbit,
• 43:54
  is looking around the room at some of these cabinet picks and
• 43:57
  going –
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: We got to keep these people in line because,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:00
  who knows what they really will do when they get in those jobs
• 44:04
  and when they have
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: the authority to do things,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: and that's something that I think is going to be,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: a relatively unique experience,
• 44:11
  given the fact that most of the time when we have a president
• 44:13
  who gets in,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: they know what they want to do and they just,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: put all these people in who are just supposed to have marching orders,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: et cetera.
• 44:19
  And I think this time around,
• 44:21
  there's a lot of weird angles that you could see where,
• 44:23
  you know,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: There are Democrats with pet issues that he ends up taking up.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think John Fetterman's playing this game incredibly well.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: And what he's going to get out of it, who knows?
• 44:36
  But it's something that I think is going to be an interesting
• 44:39
  thing to watch.
• 44:40
  And maybe it'll end up being something,
• 44:42
  some big energy deal,
• 44:44
  you know,
• 44:44
  that he can – I mean –
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: that's,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: that's the kind of thing that he likes,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: when he talks,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: it's like,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: it's the same thing with Greenland,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: somebody put in,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: put Greenland in his head,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: and he's just like,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: legacy,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Our most easily manipulated president.
• 45:05
  There's this reporting in like the – there's this whole set of
• 45:10
  journalism that I
• 45:11
  assume that you don't consume because it's so on the inside
• 45:15
  baseball front.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: But both Punchbowl and Axios have had pieces that are clearly –
• 45:22
  was meant to indicate like brushback pieces from Chief of Staff
• 45:27
  Susie Wiles saying,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: there's not going to be as many special assistants to the president.
• 45:31
  Not as many people are going to be able to walk in the door and
• 45:33
  just talk to him
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: the way that it was in the first term.
• 45:36
  And I'm like,
• 45:36
  okay,
• 45:37
  let's see how long that lasts because he wants to talk to them.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so dance for me.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Dance.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Ben.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's move on.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Housekeeping.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: You ready for it?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, gosh.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: We are a podcast.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: Good work.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: You can – I'm sorry.
• 45:58
  This is the one area that I realized as soon as I got on the
• 46:01
  horn with Katie,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was like,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: crap.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't go back and listen to housekeeping.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, here's the God's honest truth, Katie.
• 46:09
  I've heard housekeeping so much that it is the one part of the
• 46:11
  show that I skip ahead.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 46:13
  Yeah.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, no, I can't pull it off.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: We are a podcast.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: You can reach us at blockedandreportedpodcasts at gmail.com.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: Also,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: if you want to support the show,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: the best way to do that is to go to blockedandreported.org,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: and you can join us,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: become a primo subscriber,
• 46:31
  and you get twice as much content every month as well as access
• 46:34
  to our amazing
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: community over there.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great place for conversations about the show today.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: and other things.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we are also bringing our Valentine's personals back.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Huge news.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: If you're looking for love.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: That was very funny.
• 46:49
  We have one marriage and at least one long-term couplehood that
• 46:53
  have come out of this.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: So our success rate is like 1%.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's pretty good.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you're saying there's a chance.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely a chance.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to find love,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: join us,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: blockedandreported.org,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: and stay tuned for more information about that.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: Katie, where can I find merch?
• 47:10
  You cannot.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: You can't find merch.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's no fucking merch.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's one hat that says don't buy the merch.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: You really do need to inspire some kind of AI-generated merch.
• 47:25
  People should start creating their own merch and just
• 47:29
  pretending like they have it.
• 47:30
  And then there's a secret black market of blocked and reported
• 47:34
  gear that you don't
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: have access to because you're not special enough.
• 47:37
  The rule about merch is people are welcome to create and even
• 47:40
  sell their own merch.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Just don't use our logo.
• 47:43
  If you want to make a fucked up AI generated version of our logo,
• 47:46
  that's totally fine.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Go for it.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy yourself.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: The shipping will be a pain in the ass.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Go for it.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Ben, what are we talking about?
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, Katie, I am a huge fan of conspiracy theories and butterfly effects.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: So whenever I interview someone for a job,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: and I've hired probably about 100 people in the course of my career,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: I ask them what their favorite conspiracy theory is.
• 48:11
  Or what their favorite butterfly effect is that they think most
• 48:14
  people haven't noticed.
• 48:15
  And so that's obviously something like Justin Trudeau being
• 48:18
  Fidel Castro's son.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Or the fappening just being a hack of Harvey Weinstein's iCloud account.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: Or Oswald acting alone, which is a conspiracy theory.
• 48:28
  Or David Stern rigging the 1985 NBA draft,
• 48:31
  which is not a conspiracy theory.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: Or my recent favorite,
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: which is Sabrina Carpenter stealing Olivia Rodrigo's boyfriend,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: turning inevitably into the indictment of New York City Mayor Eric Adams.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have a favorite conspiracy theory or butterfly effect?
• 48:46
  Okay,
• 48:46
  so my favorite current conspiracy theory is thanks to Candace Owens,
• 48:51
  of course.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I think I know which one you're going to go with.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: That the first lady of the nation of France is actually a man.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: And she doesn't say like trans.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: She always just says like a man.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think that she maybe has never met a woman past the age of menopause.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: She might think that all women in their 60s and 70s are men.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I like that one.
• 49:11
  My favorite older conspiracy theory,
• 49:13
  this is about the government manipulating the weather.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: Something Naomi Wolf tweets about all the time.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: As far as I know,
• 49:20
  that's not actually why it's going to be like minus 10 degrees
• 49:23
  during the inauguration.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: But this truly did happen during Vietnam.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: The U.S.
• 49:28
  government used cloud seeding to make it rain and disrupt North
• 49:32
  Vietnamese supply routes.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: This did happen.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was called Operation Popeye.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: I honestly wish they would bring that back maybe in L.A.
• 49:38
  But I don't know about this Sabrina Carpenter,
• 49:41
  Olivia Rodrigo boyfriend thing.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: Can you explain that?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: Just very briefly, because I did write it up in the transplant.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: People can find it at transplant.com.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: We'll link to that.
• 49:52
  The issue is Sabrina Carpenter essentially stole Olivia
• 49:56
  Rodrigo's boyfriend several years ago.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: They have beef because of that.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then Olivia Rodrigo had beef with Taylor Swift,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: had to add her credit to a number of songs that she wrote,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: in which case Swift obviously gets the royalties and stuff.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: So they created beef.
• 50:14
  And at the same time,
• 50:16
  Taylor took a sudden interest in promoting Sabrina Carpenter's
• 50:19
  career and
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: where she had not previously been all that,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: much,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: putting her front and center.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: And she ends up, you know, opening for her on the Ares tour.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: And suddenly they're buddy-buddy.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: And there's clearly some animosity between Swift and Rodrigo.
• 50:34
  And this is kind of the rumor is basically this is a little bit
• 50:37
  of a revenge.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then because of her newfound popularity,
• 50:41
  she gets like a whole bunch of music videos made around her
• 50:45
  latest batch of songs,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: including one that ends up being filmed in a church in Brooklyn.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: and the video itself is pretty scandalous,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: which a lot of Carpenters videos tend to be and violent.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: and because of this,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: the,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: priest who's in charge of the,
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: of,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: the church,
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: is,
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: has a complete blowback from the diocese.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: The bishop has him investigated.
• 51:09
  They look into his finances and it turns out he was funneling
• 51:12
  all this money,
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: from the church into,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: These interest-free loans that were being given to Eric Adams,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: former chief of staff,
• 51:21
  who was using them to run a corrupt insurance ring that was
• 51:27
  essentially getting
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: kickbacks for all of these fake medical procedures and the like,
• 51:33
  which caused this whole thing to blow up in terms of his
• 51:36
  campaign finances.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: And ultimately, he ends up indicted.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Sabrina has addressed this on stage.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: She says, should we talk about how I got the mayor indicted?
• 51:44
  Which is a little bit of a simplification,
• 51:46
  but it is,
• 51:47
  I just think,
• 51:48
  a hilarious story.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: And she is a part of this whole thing.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I just can't, I mean, talk about weird.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: I just love that kind of stuff.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's going to make an amazing Hulu series at some point.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, absolutely.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no, they will definitely option that.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: When someone writes the long Vanity Fair piece about this.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, this, you know what, this is an Olivia Newsy joke, if I
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: This is totally Olivia.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: This will be her comeback.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: And she features in our story today.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: So that brings me to this.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to click on the first YouTube link there.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: What do you know or remember about this fellow, Katie?
• 52:31
  All the people that have gone out there against the mainstream
• 52:34
  media and said,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: you're going to call us racist.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to call us potential Timothy McVeigh's.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Fuck you.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so Andrew Breitbart, you know, he...
• 52:46
  died before i was hyper online but what i remember about him
• 52:50
  was that when he died
• 52:51
  i was working for a publishing house and one of my co-workers
• 52:54
  had this was a north
• 52:55
  carolina one of my co-workers was a a guy who had moved from
• 52:59
  new york he was a new
• 53:00
  york like writer literary type and he read the news that andrew
• 53:03
  brightbright died
• 53:04
  and then started cackling it was like the best the best day of
• 53:08
  his life so that's
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: pretty much what i know about bright oh man yeah
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very dark memory.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: So yes, that's Andrew Breitbart.
• 53:18
  And that's a clip from a documentary made about him called
• 53:21
  Hating Breitbart.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: It came out just before his death in 2012 at the age of 43.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: I happen to be 43, but I think I'm doing a little better than he was.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: So let's see if I can keep it going to 44.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: So Andrew was a larger-than-life figure.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: He was a force of nature, Mary Prankster type.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: And as it turned out,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: he was the key participant in what I think of as being a critical moment,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: a butterfly effect,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: conspiracy theory combo that really redefined the online right.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: And ultimately,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: as we'll see,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: led to Steve Bannon,
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: of all people,
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: running the Republican Party in the country,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: at least until Elon stole that out from underneath him.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: But let's talk about Breitbart, the man, before we talk about that story.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: The comment...
• 54:12
  And I heard often in the early 2010s when he was on the rise
• 54:18
  from a lot of
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: journalists and magazine writers was some version of,
• 54:23
  are there so many profiles of Breitbart because he's that
• 54:25
  important or because he's
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: the only conservative who's interesting?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you could say it's a little bit of both.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: I had another friend tell me that
• 54:35
  The thing about Breitbart was he was something that the right
• 54:39
  wing couldn't have
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: really produced naturally.
• 54:42
  He had to glom onto it because they were still in the stage of
• 54:49
  CPAC and boring old
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: people and bow ties.
• 54:55
  There was not that kind of cultural awareness and attention
• 55:00
  that Breitbart had about him.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing is that since I am very old in terms of being too online,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was very cool and had a Blogspot account when I was a teenager.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I met Andrew all the way back in 2008, I think.
• 55:16
  He gave me and my co-host at the time a podcasting award in
• 55:21
  Chicago for covering
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: the financial crisis.
• 55:22
  That was back when you had to manually download podcasts and
• 55:26
  that kind of thing.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:28
  We talked and hung out pretty regularly and just – it was a
• 55:31
  casual friendship and I
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: have some pictures with him and that kind of thing.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: He was always charming.
• 55:35
  He always struck me as like a little addled whether by
• 55:38
  substances or just this like
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: natural feverish energy that he had about him.
• 55:44
  But he dominated the right-wing ecosystem intensely for a very
• 55:47
  concentrated period
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: of time before his death and –
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's just such an odd thing for him to end up doing.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: He was born in Los Angeles in 1969.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: He was adopted by Jewish parents.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: He grew up largely in their culture.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: He had a bar mitzvah and studied at Brentwood School,
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: went to Tulane,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: bounced around in random jobs in and out of entertainment media.
• 56:09
  He later would write that he was radicalized during the 1991
• 56:13
  Clarence Thomas
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: hearings and from reading a lot of Camille Paglia.
• 56:18
  So personally,
• 56:18
  I think he would have been a great third host for Redskins.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Does he vape, though?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: He definitely would have.
• 56:29
  In 1985,
• 56:30
  he sent a cold email to Matt Drudge that resulted in him
• 56:34
  getting a job.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: So this is pre-Lewinsky.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: And he would later refer to himself as Matt Drudge's bitch.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_03: He essentially was the guy who...
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: was charged with building the website on a daily basis.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: The Drudge Report,
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: obviously,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: at that time,
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: in the early days of the internet,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: being this unique thing.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that exploded, obviously, after the Lewinsky story.
• 56:55
  And he would go and build all these different links up every
• 56:59
  day and find stuff
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: that he thought was interesting.
• 57:03
  And a thing that I kind of knew about it was he was the guy who
• 57:07
  you would hit up if
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: you were trying to get something linked.
• 57:10
  If you were writing a column or something like that,
• 57:11
  you would try to flag it for Andrew.
• 57:14
  He got introduced by Drudge to Arianna Huffington,
• 57:18
  who at that point was still a Republican.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: She was kind of in that Republican reform party thing at that point.
• 57:25
  And he essentially built the original version of the Huffington Post,
• 57:29
  which launched in 05.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then a few years later, he's decided to do his own thing.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_03: He launched these websites, Big Hollywood.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then big journalism and big government.
• 57:41
  And his first big breaking story at these places was this stunt
• 57:48
  gonzo attack on the group ACORN.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: And what was ACORN?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the name, but I'm not sure what's the acronym stood for.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's basically – Big.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 58:02
  It's basically a bunch of community-based stuff that's focused
• 58:08
  on a lot of things
• 58:09
  like affordable housing and getting people health care and
• 58:13
  things like that.
• 58:14
  But it was basically – it's something that has all this
• 58:17
  government funding that
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: flows through it.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:21
  It was a situation where basically they were handing out money
• 58:23
  to just about
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: anybody who came in and asked and for just about any reason.
• 58:27
  And so O'Keefe decided to pull off this hidden video stunt and
• 58:33
  publicize it through
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: Breitbart after he had made these videos.
• 58:38
  Do you want to read a little bit from the Wall Street Journal
• 58:40
  coverage at the time?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 58:42
  Dressing up as a pimp and prostitute in order to seek Acorn's
• 58:45
  help in starting a
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: child sex slavery ring wasn't Andrew Breitbart's idea.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: But without the internet entrepreneur's flair for publicity,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: the hidden camera sting might not have produced such impressive results.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Within days of his publishing the video expose,
• 58:58
  government agencies were cutting ties with the left-wing
• 59:00
  advocacy and community
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: organizing group,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Congress was voting to end its federal funding,
• 59:05
  and news organizations were rushing to catch up with a
• 59:07
  sensational story they had
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: initially resisted or ignored.
• 59:11
  James O'Keefe,
• 59:11
  the 25-year-old aspiring filmmaker who played the pimp in Acord Meetings.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Was he wearing a leisure seat, do you think?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you haven't seen the footage of it?
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my gosh.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's fantastic.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: Just do me a favor.
• 59:24
  No,
• 59:25
  right now,
• 59:25
  before we go any further,
• 59:26
  just Google James O'Keefe pimp and hit images.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, he is.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's wearing a fucking fake fur coat.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: He's got a cane.
• 59:35
  This is somehow...
• 59:36
  He's not in blackface and yet it is still somehow racist.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my God.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Continuing with the Wall Street Journal...
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: James O'Keefe,
• 59:46
  a 25-year-old aspiring filmmaker who played the pimp in the
• 59:48
  Acorn meetings,
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: came to Mr.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: Breitbart in early August with his videos.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: They showed Mr.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: O'Keefe and his punitive partner in crime,
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: 20-year-old Hannah Giles,
• 59:55
  asking Acorn counselors for advice on how to evade the
• 59:58
  authorities while setting up
• 59:59
  a business offering the sexual services of underage girls
• 1:00:02
  smuggled into the U.S.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: from El Salvador.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was a shocking and outlandish tale,
• 1:00:06
  but employees of at least five Acorn offices fell for it and
• 1:00:10
  offered help.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: He was wearing that?
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he's wearing that the whole time.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, these people deserve to have their funding revoked.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's just out of basic stupidity.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: The funny thing about those videos,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_03: by the way,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_03: and you can still find them online,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: is that they really are trying to help him.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: Small business owner.
• 1:00:29
  Yes,
• 1:00:29
  he's trying to categorize himself,
• 1:00:30
  and they're like,
• 1:00:31
  well,
• 1:00:31
  no,
• 1:00:31
  you don't want to say that.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:38
  It's basically like a,
• 1:00:41
  okay,
• 1:00:41
  I need to fill out this form and like not get arrested.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: So was this the beginning of his career?
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it was.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: So Veritas wouldn't exist without this.
• 1:00:50
  And it went everywhere just because of the outlandish nature of
• 1:00:54
  it and the combo.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: And of course –
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: The outfit and the jailbait aspect to it.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: Americans love jailbait.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not really,
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 1:01:09
  anything too revolutionary when you understand that we're
• 1:01:13
  talking about a group of
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: theater kids.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: These are all theater kids, especially O'Keefe.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_03: Daily Wire, all these other people, they're all theater kids.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_03: But this is like a different world.
• 1:01:26
  These are not the typical people who you see lining up for
• 1:01:30
  internships in Capitol Hill.
• 1:01:32
  These are folks who are coming from outside but are kind of of
• 1:01:36
  this new guerrilla
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: right journalism type thing that hadn't really existed before.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: You had National Review and you had the Wall Street Journal sometimes.
• 1:01:45
  You had the Weekly Standard and you had Human Events and places
• 1:01:48
  like that.
• 1:01:49
  You just didn't have – you had commentary magazines and then
• 1:01:53
  you had talk radio.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that was basically it.
• 1:01:56
  And so obviously this is a coincidence with Fox becoming the
• 1:02:02
  force that they were
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: in terms of cable news.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: They were all over this story,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_03: and Breitbart starts getting all this attention for it.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: The thing that was really interesting,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_03: about this is that he hadn't been front and center before.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_03: He was someone who had been behind the scenes with Drudge,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_03: with Huffington,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_03: et cetera,
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: and hadn't really come out.
• 1:02:22
  He has a little description of his approach to being in the
• 1:02:27
  limelight in a little
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_03: 2010 interview with CBN that I really like.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_03: I like to get into the gutter with these people.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_03: I derive a sick pleasure from it.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: What's the upside to your tactics?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: Victory.
• 1:02:40
  So I think you can hear some echoes of what he said there in
• 1:02:43
  our politics today,
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_03: which is that basically you do journalism,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: you do media work in order to win.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like you're focused on your side winning.
• 1:02:53
  And so you're trying to tell these stories and drive narratives
• 1:02:56
  that you think will
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_03: benefit your side.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_03: But the main reason I wanted to talk about this with you,
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_03: Katie,
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_03: is because it's really not just a story about Andrew.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's about
• 1:03:05
  what he did to online media and the butterfly effect of the
• 1:03:09
  scalp that he took along the way.
• 1:03:11
  And Katie,
• 1:03:12
  I'm talking,
• 1:03:12
  of course,
• 1:03:13
  about the aforementioned Anthony Weiner scandal.
• 1:03:16
  Here's a high point from that notorious press conference that I
• 1:03:20
  hope your listeners
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: will remember.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm announcing my resignation from Congress.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: So my colleagues can get back to work.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: My neighbors can choose a new representative.
• 1:03:34
  and most importantly,
• 1:03:36
  that my wife and I can continue to heal from the damage I have caused.
• 1:03:42
  They're all patriots and I will miss them all.
• 1:03:58
  That's Benji Burke from the Howard Stern show heckling him for
• 1:04:01
  what it's worth.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: That is very sex negative.
• 1:04:05
  It's easy to forget,
• 1:04:07
  Katie,
• 1:04:07
  that Anthony Weiner was a really big deal around this time.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: And not just the butt of jokes that he became.
• 1:04:13
  He was a passionate and eloquent and combative liberal who had
• 1:04:17
  a very real
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_03: following in Washington.
• 1:04:19
  I actually knew a bunch of Republican women who confessed to me
• 1:04:21
  that they found him attractive.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: Which, I mean, it takes all kinds.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Huma is an attractive woman.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, I think he had game.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: He's got riz.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: Had riz.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_03: Had, had, had.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: Emphasis on that.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: Wiener was a media maven and always on cable.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: He was always getting into a scrap with Republicans.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_03: And to be honest,
• 1:04:43
  I think that he himself kind of foretold what we were talking
• 1:04:45
  about at the beginning.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_03: About the way that people approach the job of being in Congress now,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: you don't really need a policy staff.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_03: You just need a press secretary and a booker and things like that.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_03: One of the arenas where Wiener was very active back then was Twitter,
• 1:05:01
  which was just a four-year-old website where people still used
• 1:05:05
  to post grainy
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: pictures at their brunch and make jokes.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_03: And you would do follow Fridays where –
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_03: You actually included,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_03: by the way,
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: when he ran for president,
• 1:05:16
  I discovered that Mayor Pete had included me in one of his
• 1:05:19
  follow Fridays.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: Which is, was a shock to me.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: That would come out to haunt him.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_03: And just to put in perspective,
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_03: like in,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: in terms of internet age,
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think of things,
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:05:32
  in before this and after this drill had not even posted his
• 1:05:35
  corn cob tweet yet.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_03: We have the before the corncob tweet and then after the corncob tweet.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's what BC stands for.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: Before corncob.
• 1:05:46
  Then on the calm Friday evening of May 27,
• 1:05:51
  2011,
• 1:05:51
  Andrew Arena's account posted a link to YFrog.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_03: Did you ever use YFrog?
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: I did not, no.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:05:56
  So that's like an early days,
• 1:05:58
  like,
• 1:05:58
  you know,
• 1:05:59
  how do I post a picture on the internet service?
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: And you could connect it to Twitter.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, like –
• 1:06:06
  Like all of those old vines back in the day,
• 1:06:10
  they're lost in the mists of time.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a picture-sharing service that posts things automatically.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_03: But what it would do,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: and I know this because it was one of the defects of it,
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_03: you couldn't really DM with it.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_03: You had to sort of manually do something to DM with it.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it would otherwise automatically post things to your account.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:33
  So he sent a picture or attempted to send a picture that was
• 1:06:38
  tagged to account that
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_03: turned out to belong to a Seattle college student.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: Her name is Jeanette Cordova.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: She publicized herself eventually,
• 1:06:46
  which showed what Cabin in the Woods would describe as a
• 1:06:49
  husband's bulge in some
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_03: gray boxer briefs.
• 1:06:54
  This was very quickly snatched up by someone who sent it to
• 1:07:01
  Andrew Breitbart.
• 1:07:03
  But Anthony Weiner didn't know that,
• 1:07:05
  and obviously things were moving slower at that time.
• 1:07:08
  You didn't have the kind of constant attention to Twitter that
• 1:07:13
  you see today,
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: X,
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: the everything app where everything happens.
• 1:07:17
  It would later turn out that this was part of a pattern for
• 1:07:20
  Wiener of sending
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_03: random women online,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_03: unanticipated,
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_03: unexpected,
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_03: and unrequested dick pics.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_03: And later,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_03: it would turn out that he was doing this while his wife,
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uma,
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_03: was pregnant with their first and only child.
• 1:07:34
  But before we knew any of that,
• 1:07:36
  Wiener almost immediately noticed what had happened.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_03: He'd been in the middle of tweeting about a hockey game,
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_03: and then suddenly he deleted all his media from his account and
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_03: And tweeted out the following morning,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: quote,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: TiVo shot,
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_03: FB hacked,
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_03: is my blender going to attack me next?
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_03: Hashtag, the toaster is very loyal.
• 1:07:57
  Amusingly enough,
• 1:07:57
  Katie,
• 1:07:58
  I found out in researching this that he has not deleted that tweet.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's still on his account.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_03: So there you have the historical documentation.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_03: He, of course, immediately just said he'd been hacked.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_03: And given the fact that most journalists at the time,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_03: if they were aware of Twitter,
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_03: they were probably on the younger side.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_03: Or if they used it, it was in a completely unserious way.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_03: This is before it became such a focus of the blue check crowd.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was some degree of,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_03: maybe he was hacked or maybe someone else has access to his account or,
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_03: maybe this is something that,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_03: just was an accident or something like that.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_03: But Breitbart,
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_03: having the original image,
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_03: because some fan of his snagged it,
• 1:08:46
  immediately his whole crew starts talking amongst themselves
• 1:08:50
  about how they're
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_03: going to report about this,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_03: because they obviously have to,
• 1:08:55
  and because they're the kind of place that would engage in
• 1:08:58
  reporting about this,
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_03: Again, not your National Review, not your Weekly Standard, et cetera.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_03: This is something that is right up their alley.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_03: I talked to two of the people who were there at the time,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_03: Larry O'Connor,
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_03: who's a radio host here in D.C.,
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_03: and Dana Lash,
• 1:09:13
  who's probably known to you all as the former NRA spokesperson
• 1:09:17
  and radio host herself.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_03: She actually co-wrote the piece about it,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_03: and Larry wrote a whole chapter for a book about it,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_03: which I'll have you read a bit of this if you could.
• 1:09:28
  Wiener continued to stick with his denial and his claim that he
• 1:09:30
  had been hacked.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_02: Suddenly, reporters started pointing the finger at Andrew.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: The narrative evolved,
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: and before Memorial Day rolled around,
• 1:09:37
  Andrew found himself on phone call after phone call while he
• 1:09:40
  was supposed to be
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: spending quality beach time with his devoted wife and children,
• 1:09:44
  denying that he had hacked the social media accounts of a
• 1:09:47
  sitting congressman,
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: dot,
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: dot,
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: dot.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: Ironically,
• 1:09:49
  one of the most vocal skeptics attacking Breitbart during this
• 1:09:51
  entire escapade was
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: none other than CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_03: There he is!
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_03: Keep going.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_02: CNN had Andrew on to discuss our story,
• 1:10:03
  which was really an exercise in the CNN host attacking him in
• 1:10:06
  our coverage of the story.
• 1:10:08
  Breitbart factually noted that the media should be scrutinizing
• 1:10:10
  Wiener and digging
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_02: into his apparent interest in sharing lewd,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: lascivious material with very young women.
• 1:10:15
  Tobin was then brought on the air to analyze the legal trouble
• 1:10:18
  Wiener or Breitbart
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: might be in,
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: depending on who one believed.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Quote,
• 1:10:22
  what Andrew Breitbart was insinuating about Wiener with young
• 1:10:24
  girls and stuff is outrageous.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And frankly, it's too bad he got to say that stuff on CNN, Tobin said.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Look, this is a lighthearted story.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is a subtly little thing that happened.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a big deal.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Toobin would have his own silly little thing just a couple years later.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is such a moment in time.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is so pre-Me Too.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Very, very pre-Me Too.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so you don't even have it in the same –
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 1:10:57
  Age gaps,
• 1:10:58
  consent,
• 1:10:59
  power,
• 1:10:59
  all of these dynamics,
• 1:11:00
  they're just defending him.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's no big deal.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, no big deal.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_03: I will point out in terms of –
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: In terms of sex scandals,
• 1:11:10
  the interesting thing I will say about Wiener's experience is
• 1:11:13
  there is no evidence
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_03: he has ever met any of the women that he has sent these pictures to.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's just an online creep.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, which is bizarre.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, make sex scandals great again.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like, come on.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_03: I guess it could be we don't kink shame, you know, but still.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is the thing.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_02: People don't meet up offline anymore.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's sad.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my gosh.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it is sad.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's a crisis.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, the crisis of loneliness.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_03: We need the Institute of Family Studies to focus more on this.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Why aren't online creeps meeting more of the people that they're sending
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_03: unsolicited dick pics to?
• 1:11:48
  Then maybe they could get married,
• 1:11:50
  settle down and have kids and benefit all of us.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's a community.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_03: Rick Santorum could stand up and make this argument.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_03: The left wing spin, Katie, was Breitbart hacked Wiener's phone.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_03: or they blamed Fox News or Rupert Murdoch.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: That was kind of a convoluted thing, didn't make any sense.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_03: Or they insinuated,
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_03: and this was what the online lefties were doing at the time,
• 1:12:14
  Andrew Breitbart's obsessed with Anthony Weiner's junk as a way
• 1:12:18
  of defending Weiner.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like that...
• 1:12:20
  Which,
• 1:12:20
  of course,
• 1:12:20
  they would not have done if Anthony Weiner hadn't been a
• 1:12:23
  liberal darling.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:12:25
  And so that was what you were hearing from the Daily Kos types
• 1:12:28
  and people like that.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's Cope.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:12:31
  The New York Times ran with a narrative that conservatives had
• 1:12:34
  catfished Weiner and
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_03: used fake Twitter profiles to flirt with him.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that makes it okay.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_03: There is some evidence that that might have been true,
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_03: but it seems pretty thin on reading the Times story.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it also seems to me to be like –
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay,
• 1:12:49
  so they found a couple of random people who may have done this
• 1:12:51
  because of his name
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_03: or something like that,
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_03: but there's no evidence that he,
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_03: responded or,
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing that was interesting,
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_03: by the way,
• 1:12:58
  that stuck out to me in some of the coverage of this at the
• 1:13:00
  time was they didn't
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_03: really understand how following worked on Twitter.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_03: To me,
• 1:13:07
  the fact that Wiener followed less than 1,000 people and many
• 1:13:12
  of them were
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: professional political accounts and things like that,
• 1:13:15
  but then a bunch of random chicks with thirst trap pictures
• 1:13:20
  would have been an
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_03: automatic tell.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 1:13:23
  You know how they track that kind of thing today for major
• 1:13:28
  celebrity accounts when
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_03: someone will show up.
• 1:13:32
  in in someone's instagram likes you know who's like an nba
• 1:13:35
  player or something and
• 1:13:36
  everybody freaks out about it there was like mark andreessen
• 1:13:39
  was following all of
• 1:13:40
  these conservatives a few years ago and that was like a major
• 1:13:43
  fucking story this
• 1:13:44
  like like yeah um by the way mark andreessen unblock me i don't
• 1:13:47
  know why he blocks
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_03: me yeah
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: His Twitter, he has blocked me and unblocked me several times as well.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I do not understand it.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't get it.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think he doesn't like my jokes.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_03: So the –
• 1:14:02
  The interesting thing,
• 1:14:03
  of course,
• 1:14:03
  is that looking back now,
• 1:14:05
  it all seems very stupid.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_03: But basically,
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_03: they were saying,
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:14:08
  he was just responding to people and following them because
• 1:14:10
  they were interacting
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_03: with him online.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_03: He just wants to get to know his constituents.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Just the pretty ones.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, just the pretty ones who live in Seattle.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_03: So in response to all this –
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Breitbart released a stream of additional photos.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know the background on how they got them,
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_03: but these were ones that Wiener had sent to a woman in Texas.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Presumably,
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_03: she or someone close to her sent them on to Breitbart,
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_03: and one of them showed his face.
• 1:14:39
  And obviously,
• 1:14:40
  this is pre-AI,
• 1:14:42
  so that's not something you can easily deny.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way,
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Katie,
• 1:14:48
  do you think that we're going to get a lot more of these now
• 1:14:51
  that people have
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_03: proven you can scam boomers with clumsy AI of Brad Pitt in the hospital?
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I do think so.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Did you look at those pictures?
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_03: They are so amazingly clumsy.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_02: I just love it.
• 1:15:04
  There have been several stories recently about boomers thinking
• 1:15:07
  that they're in
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: relationships with celebrities.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my gosh.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's sad.
• 1:15:11
  You know,
• 1:15:12
  I mean,
• 1:15:13
  I guess if I thought Sidney Sweeney was messaging me,
• 1:15:16
  I might respond.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, come on, you know?
• 1:15:18
  Well,
• 1:15:19
  it's going to get worse because you can do it with just regular people.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like boomers are going to get,
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: like a picture of like their grandkid in a Thai prison.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: You must wire me $100,000 to get out.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of shit.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_03: What happens when the Facebook beta AIs start doing that?
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, if you have a relationship with that racist old black dude.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So New York City, June 7th.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a couple of weeks of this.
• 1:15:49
  The congressman holds a press conference at the Sheraton in
• 1:15:52
  Midtown to admit that,
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_03: he had sent the images,
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_03: all his claims about hacking,
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_03: et cetera,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_03: getting the FBI.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't his toaster.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_03: The FBI was not going to investigate this.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_03: They were all lies.
• 1:16:04
  So he is going to hold this presser to admit this,
• 1:16:07
  but he's late to his own press conference.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_03: Breitbart,
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_03: who happened to be doing cable hits the same day in walking distance,
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think from both Fox and 30 Rock,
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_03: he just showed up and stole the mic.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, God.
• 1:16:20
  And so this was like an incredible scene as it played out
• 1:16:24
  because it was on all the
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_03: cable networks because they were all waiting for him to show up.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then he shows up,
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_03: takes the mic,
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_03: and just starts talking and lambasts the media,
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_03: goes after CNN,
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_03: goes after Salon,
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_03: goes after a bunch of people who had written things doubting.
• 1:16:40
  the authenticity of this and basically just holds court for
• 1:16:44
  like 15 minutes in front of a
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_03: crew of journos who are all throwing questions at him.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_03: When Wiener eventually took the podium,
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_03: he apologized to his wife,
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_03: and he also apologized to Andrew Breitbart,
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_03: of all things.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_03: But it wasn't enough.
• 1:16:58
  And 10 days later,
• 1:16:59
  he resigned from Congress,
• 1:17:02
  getting heckled on the way out,
• 1:17:03
  as you heard.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_03: And this former rising Democrat star was on the outs.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so this had a number of different impacts.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Breitbart had been on the rise before, but taking out a guy who
• 1:17:17
  who was viewed as being maybe a future Speaker of the House,
• 1:17:21
  a senator from New York.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_03: He was talked about as somebody who could fill that job in the future.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_03: He was a rising star.
• 1:17:27
  And for him to go down in such an over-the-top way made
• 1:17:31
  Breitbart a rock star
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_03: sensation on the right.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:17:35
  he'd taken a story that old legacy media didn't want to touch
• 1:17:39
  because it's tawdry
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_03: and tabloid and,
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_03: and it's,
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 1:17:45
  social media was something at that point that they didn't
• 1:17:48
  really understand.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, he'd taken.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And social media would have been seen as cheap.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Cheap.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Below.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Below.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_03: We shouldn't even pay attention to this.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_02: We are the media.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_03: We're the media.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_03: We have bureaus all over the world.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to last forever.
• 1:18:02
  So he's taken all these hits for days of denials from Wiener
• 1:18:08
  and being dissed by
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_03: the legacy media only for him to win out in the end.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_03: The effect was an explosion of Breitbart's popularity.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_03: People wanted to work with him.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_03: The conservative movement that had produced media types like William F.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Buckley and George Will and Bowtie-era Tucker,
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_03: he was something completely different from that.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_03: He was this gregarious Falstaffian figure.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And people wanted to work for him.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_03: It was like something different.
• 1:18:35
  It was a way to be part of this kind of attack guerrilla
• 1:18:39
  journalism that was doing
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_03: things that were fun and tactful.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, a little bit on the edge.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_03: This was also,
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_03: it was before Breitbart became the site,
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_03: I should say,
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_03: became what it would become.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a much bigger tent.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you had Ben Shapiro writing for them.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_03: You had,
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_03: all these different people who were,
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_03: from different parts of the conservative coalition who...
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know, would gladly work with Andrew.
• 1:19:06
  And they were also prominent in DC in a way that some of these
• 1:19:12
  other places really weren't.
• 1:19:13
  They,
• 1:19:14
  they rented out this big townhouse and they called it their embassy.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_03: And they would hold these big parties there.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it was also, it was just kind of a place to be in that moment.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Katie,
• 1:19:30
  I don't know what your impression is of conservative journalism
• 1:19:32
  based on kind of
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_03: the arc of how long you've paid attention to it.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_03: But did you have any awareness of this when it was going on?
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Is it all just sort of pre the point where you were paying attention?
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_02: I knew about the Wiener scandal,
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 1:19:48
  but I was getting my news at this point probably almost
• 1:19:51
  exclusively from NPR.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: So not tawdry at all.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:56
  And this was when NPR was more like national public radio than
• 1:20:00
  whatever it is now.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I was pretty unaware.
• 1:20:03
  And in fact,
• 1:20:04
  I was unaware that Breitbart himself actually broke the story
• 1:20:06
  until right now.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_03: So this is the thing to keep in mind about it.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like –
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_03: we were talking earlier about how,
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:20:15
  this is a different moment for the right because culturally at
• 1:20:18
  least they've become,
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:20:22
  oddly popular or at least culturally occupying a different
• 1:20:25
  position than they did before.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Which is such an indictment of the left.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I know.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_02: This is a direct result of liberals being fucking annoying.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it comes down to.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's Reddit Thunberg's fucking fault.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's the Imagine video.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you have all the celebrities, okay?
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_03: You have all the celebrities, and yet you're uncool.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Taylor Swift cannot, it turns out, swing votes.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_03: It turns out that, no, that does not work.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_02: But Joe Rogan apparently can.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, apparently.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you need, if you're going to have Beyonce there, she needs to sing.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's the advice.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_03: This was not the end of Anthony Weiner's story, of course.
• 1:21:07
  He attempted what would have been an incredible political
• 1:21:10
  comeback in 2013,
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_03: running for mayor of New York City.
• 1:21:14
  And I know many conservative New Yorkers who would maintain
• 1:21:19
  that he actually was
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_03: the best candidate in that race for the city.
• 1:21:24
  And for a very brief period,
• 1:21:25
  it looked like he actually might pull it off.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_03: He was leading in a couple of polls.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, because there has to be, there's another scandal.
• 1:21:35
  It turns out he'd been sending more pictures to more women
• 1:21:38
  using the alias.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_03: This is a classic one, Katie.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Carlos Danger.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if your name was Anthony Wiener, wouldn't you change your name?
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'd probably change it to Mitt Romney.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_03: One woman who was a recipient, sex worker Sidney Leathers,
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_03: said he admitted to her that he was,
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_03: quote,
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_03: an argumentative,
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_03: perpetually horny,
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_03: middle-aged man,
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_03: unquote.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_02: So he's self-aware.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_03: So he is self-aware.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_03: She would later try to crash his concession party.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_03: They showed a bit of that in the documentary.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you had a chance to watch that before our conversation.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_02: I did, yes, with the very memorable name, Wiener.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_03: What was your impression of that documentary?
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh.
• 1:22:23
  I thought the documentary – I mean,
• 1:22:24
  as far as documentaries go,
• 1:22:25
  like,
• 1:22:26
  it was fine.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_02: My impression of him was that he is basically unrepentant,
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_02: that he – you know,
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_02: the documentary followed him through this 2013 mayoral campaign,
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_02: and he was well-liked.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_02: It seemed like he would have been good at governing.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly compared to Bill de Blasio.
• 1:22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but also truly argumentative.
• 1:22:50
  There's a scene in the documentary where he and Bill de Blasio
• 1:22:54
  almost come to fisticuffs.
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's bizarre.
• 1:22:57
  But he also does seem totally unrepentant and feels aggrieved
• 1:23:01
  that his personal
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_02: baggage derails his campaign.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_02: He does not come across, I think, as a sympathetic figure.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_02: He comes across as a
• 1:23:10
  A shitty husband who got derailed by his own hubris and his own
• 1:23:14
  inability to keep
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_02: his dick in his pants and his phone in his pocket.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_03: To me,
• 1:23:20
  my takeaway from that was Anthony Weiner's political career
• 1:23:23
  would have gone just
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_03: fine if he was a politician in France.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_03: Or Italy.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_03: Or Italy.
• 1:23:30
  I mean,
• 1:23:30
  Italy,
• 1:23:31
  I think they would have judged him for not closing the deal.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_03: You need to be sleeping with these women.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's the online thing.
• 1:23:39
  It's interesting that we do care way too much about the private
• 1:23:45
  lives of our politicians.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_02: We fucking do.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do his dick pics actually indicate that he would be a poor at governing?
• 1:23:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely not.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_02: But this is America.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe he would have cleared out the underbrush in California.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we would have raked the forest.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Make America rake again.
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_03: The big legacy of that campaign,
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_03: I would argue,
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_03: was birthing the career of Olivia Nuzzi,
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_03: who interned,
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_03: wrote about it for the New York Daily News,
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_03: got called a slutbag by his campaign manager,
• 1:24:15
  and was accused of basically just kind of horning up on the
• 1:24:19
  place in order to get
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_03: stories out of it.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And thanks to that,
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_03: we have many,
• 1:24:25
  many profile pieces to thank Anthony Weiner for in the future
• 1:24:29
  by sparking that
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_03: young writer's career.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the phrase RFK Jr.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_02: sex.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_03: So that wasn't even the end of it, though.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_03: In 2016,
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Wiener was tagged again,
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_03: this time for messaging an underage recipient in North Carolina.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_03: New York Post Daily Mail got this.
• 1:24:50
  They revealed he even sent pictures from his bed with his
• 1:24:54
  toddler son sleeping beside him.
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_03: When the young girl got caught by her father,
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_03: it turned out that Wiener shared a laptop with Huma.
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_03: I have no idea why you would do that.
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's nuts.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe she demanded it.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_03: It could be.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's just like something that came out of all of this.
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And just to remind people,
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Huma Abedin,
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: his wife,
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: her ex-wife,
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_02: she was Hillary Clinton's right-hand woman.
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes,
• 1:25:18
  and one of the factors when he was running for mayor for people
• 1:25:21
  wanting to go and
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_03: work for him was people saw doing that as being an in with Hillary in the
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_03: anticipated 2016 race.
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of good that would have done him.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_03: So –
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_03: By dint of him sharing this laptop,
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_03: when the FBI had to look into this,
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_03: they found that there were backups of Hillary's notorious emails on it.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously, that had been an item of much consternation.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Previously, James Comey had come out and said...
• 1:25:52
  That while she was reckless,
• 1:25:53
  he wasn't going to pursue charges or an indictment.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_03: This time around,
• 1:25:59
  they had the horrible situation of being right out from the
• 1:26:03
  election just days away
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_03: and having this new trove of emails come in.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Where they didn't know if they were actually new material or not.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_03: So the FBI sees the devices that belong to both Wiener and Abedin.
• 1:26:16
  And James Comey comes out and gives that notorious announcement
• 1:26:21
  about them
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_03: reopening the investigation.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, he...
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_03: obviously has been judged by history from that.
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of Democrats blame him for her losing.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't necessarily think he made the decisive factor there.
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was more about her late-stage campaign decisions.
• 1:26:41
  SPEAKER_03: She didn't go to Wisconsin's campaign and that kind of thing.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_03: The truth is, though, that I think that
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever effect he had, it was a negative one for her.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_03: It put back in the mind the idea that Hillary's corrupt and the FBI is
• 1:26:56
  investigating her and it's active mere days before the election
• 1:26:59
  when people are
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_03: already voting.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_03: So whatever it did, it didn't help her.
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard for me to believe that there was a significant population of –
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_02: People who were probably going to vote for Hillary against Trump,
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_02: but decided not to based on the emails.
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: to me,
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_02: and I base this purely on vibes and speculation,
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_02: the fundamental problem was that nobody took Trump seriously,
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_02: including the media and including the Clinton campaign,
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_02: including voters,
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_02: because it seemed he seemed like such a clown.
• 1:27:27
  It seems so impossible that he would ever win a national
• 1:27:31
  election that people
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_02: didn't even bother to vote.
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:27:34
  I mean,
• 1:27:35
  I was on a lot of radio and I was on CBS for the evening
• 1:27:40
  coverage that election night.
• 1:27:42
  And just the level of shock and surprise among people was still astonishing.
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I just was standing there.
• 1:27:50
  I was standing next to Peggy Noonan when he finally came out to
• 1:27:53
  give his victory speech.
• 1:27:56
  And the instant he stepped out from behind the curtain into the interview,
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_03: I turned to Peggy and I said,
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_03: He's afraid.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_03: He said, I know.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_03: He's just as surprised as the rest of us.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't think he was going to win either.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, exactly.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_03: So this last incident with this young woman in North Carolina,
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_03: this time it's someone who's too young.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, it's an actual minor.
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_03: So Wiener goes to prison for that last one.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_03: He gets out in 2019.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_03: Huma finally divorces him.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_03: She's now marrying the heir to George Soros' fortune.
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that's going to be –
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's going to be some fun times on Reddit.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:28:39
  As for Anthony Weiner,
• 1:28:40
  Katie,
• 1:28:41
  can you read this update from New York One last month?
• 1:28:44
  Ex-Congressman sex offender Anthony Weiner files papers for
• 1:28:48
  city council run.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_03: He's back.
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Dream big, folks.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_03: Never give up on your dreams.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, he is.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_03: He is considering a run for city council.
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_03: He's already filed the papers.
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, felons are in now.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, apparently.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there's even some quotes in the article,
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_03: you don't have to go into it,
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_03: from people saying,
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_03: we believe in,
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_03: redemption.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_03: And we believe, you know.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Ban the box.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my God.
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_03: So less than a year after the whole press conference chaos,
• 1:29:19
  SPEAKER_03: in March of 2012,
• 1:29:21
  Andrew Breitbart died of heart failure while walking in his
• 1:29:24
  neighborhood in Los Angeles.
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_03: There is some conspiracy theories that you can find online about that,
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_03: but I don't happen to believe them.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_03: He had a number of health issues near the end.
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_03: He had had problems with substance abuse in the past,
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_03: but he was so larger than life,
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_03: it was a real incredibly...
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_03: shocking thing to lose him.
• 1:29:48
  And to lose him really when it seemed like he was on this just
• 1:29:51
  upward surge of
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_03: relevance and importance and people look to him as being this new kind of
• 1:29:58
  conservative media leader and figure who was going to be around
• 1:30:02
  for a long time to
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_03: come and have,
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_03: this big outsized role in politics and media and the like.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I still remember, I mean,
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_03: I got the phone call and then I had to call some friends.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, people were, you know, the polar opposite of your colleague.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_03: They were, you know, in tears.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_03: And there's some people who are still,
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:30:25
  they made decisions afterwards basically about their careers
• 1:30:30
  that they wouldn't
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_03: have made given the nature of how close they had worked with
• 1:30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Breitbart and the
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_03: So then in comes Steve Bannon,
• 1:30:52
  who is the chairman at the time of the Breitbart empire that
• 1:30:56
  exploded so much
• 1:30:58
  SPEAKER_03: thanks to Andrew's success.
• 1:31:00
  SPEAKER_03: You will know him,
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_03: as the wearer of an insane amount of shirts,
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_03: a veteran of Goldman Sachs,
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_03: and –
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Also a felon.
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Also a felon.
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_03: And the guy who makes money every time you watch an episode of Seinfeld.
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, does he?
• 1:31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Was he a producer?
• 1:31:13
  So part of the deal that he did in negotiating the sale of
• 1:31:19
  Castle Rock Entertainment,
• 1:31:21
  SPEAKER_03: they took a percentage of the deal as opposed to payment.
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Smart move.
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And at that point,
• 1:31:31
  they had no idea how much money that was going to come out of
• 1:31:34
  that syndication deal.
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously...
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Enormous.
• 1:31:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know.
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_03: Julia Louis-Dreyfus must hate that.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_03: And Larry David absolutely hates it.
• 1:31:44
  SPEAKER_03: He's talked openly about it.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Larry David, always a shrinking violet when it comes to this.
• 1:31:50
  Almost immediately when Bannon took over Breitbart News,
• 1:31:54
  he changed the direction of the site.
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_03: He had a much more hard-edged view toward politics than Andrew did.
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Andrew was always talking about how politics was downstream from culture,
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_03: that culture comes first.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Again, big Hollywood was the thing that he was most focused on.
• 1:32:14
  SPEAKER_03: And his battles were with the media and that kind of thing.
• 1:32:17
  SPEAKER_03: He really didn't
• 1:32:19
  SPEAKER_03: like politicians,
• 1:32:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:32:20
  in the way that Bannon sort of took politicians under his wing
• 1:32:24
  or branded them as
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_03: being like part of,
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_03: his war and that kind of thing.
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Breitbart was also not a fan of Donald Trump.
• 1:32:33
  SPEAKER_03: So the problem is Andrew wasn't around to advance that vision anymore.
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Instead,
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_03: you had Steve Bannon,
• 1:32:39
  who made shitty movies and whose politics were mostly about
• 1:32:42
  hating Muslims,
• 1:32:43
  who turned Breitbart News into this malleable place for Trump's
• 1:32:49
  sycophants and was
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_03: richly rewarded.
• 1:32:52
  He ends up obviously becoming kind of the Trump whisperer
• 1:32:55
  during the 2016 campaign.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_03: His ideas,
• 1:32:59
  SPEAKER_03: whether they're his or not,
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_03: he takes credit for them,
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_03: are ones that different portions of the factions around Trump embrace.
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_03: He gets rewarded with a place in the White House.
• 1:33:10
  And then he got so weird and just stunk up the place in terms
• 1:33:15
  of pissing people off
• 1:33:16
  internally that he gets dumped by Trump after kind of a round
• 1:33:20
  of negative media.
• 1:33:21
  SPEAKER_03: He...
• 1:33:23
  SPEAKER_03: Trump does not like people who smell like losers.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's one thing that's consistent about him.
• 1:33:28
  And Bannon just kind of attached himself to too many people who
• 1:33:31
  have that odor
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_03: around them,
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_03: especially,
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_03: after 2022,
• 1:33:35
  where he was the big champion of all these different Trumpist
• 1:33:39
  candidates who got
• 1:33:40
  SPEAKER_03: nominated and lost.
• 1:33:42
  You know,
• 1:33:42
  Carrie Lake obviously being one of the more prominent ones,
• 1:33:44
  but there were tons.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:33:47
  Personally,
• 1:33:48
  I think that Bannon betrayed just about everything that Andrew
• 1:33:51
  Breitbart stood for.
• 1:33:52
  Breitbart was about holding the media accountable for their own
• 1:33:57
  double standards
• 1:33:58
  and their willingness to dismiss scandals on the Democratic
• 1:34:00
  side as nothing burgers
• 1:34:01
  SPEAKER_03: and obsess over the defects of the right.
• 1:34:04
  SPEAKER_03: He cared deeply about American pop culture,
• 1:34:07
  viewed it as something that shouldn't be destroyed but needed
• 1:34:11
  to be almost redeemed.
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_03: The idea...
• 1:34:14
  SPEAKER_03: That we could,
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:34:16
  bring back Hollywood to be something that Americans could be
• 1:34:19
  proud of as opposed to
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_03: having an attitude towards,
• 1:34:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:34:23
  SPEAKER_03: the creative arts that was basically like all of them suck,
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:34:27
  SPEAKER_03: is something that was,
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_03: a big part of him.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think that if he had lived,
• 1:34:34
  I think American conservatism online would look very different
• 1:34:37
  than it does today.
• 1:34:37
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_03: maybe that's wishful thinking,
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_03: but I think that – I don't know how much better it would be,
• 1:34:43
  SPEAKER_03: but it would be different.
• 1:34:45
  And I think that a lot of the ways it would be different
• 1:34:48
  incline me to think that
• 1:34:49
  SPEAKER_03: it would be better.
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_03: He changed –
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_03: the way the right thought about media.
• 1:34:56
  SPEAKER_03: They,
• 1:34:56
  SPEAKER_03: before Andrew,
• 1:34:58
  SPEAKER_03: most of the right,
• 1:34:59
  SPEAKER_03: when it came to media,
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_03: they were about complaining about bias.
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_03: They were about,
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_03: saying,
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:35:06
  SPEAKER_03: you come from liberal colleges and you don't know us and et cetera.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_03: They...
• 1:35:11
  We're not people who would really engage in the tawdry or tacky
• 1:35:17
  realm of the
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_03: combative arts when it came to dealing with media.
• 1:35:22
  And they were not sort of interested in that or they thought it
• 1:35:26
  was beneath them.
• 1:35:28
  Now,
• 1:35:29
  obviously,
• 1:35:29
  in the aftermath of things like this,
• 1:35:31
  that's not the case at all.
• 1:35:33
  The idea that you would have right of center journals
• 1:35:37
  publishing pictures of Hunter
• 1:35:39
  SPEAKER_03: Biden's blurred out genitals,
• 1:35:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:35:41
  SPEAKER_03: in this day and age,
• 1:35:42
  SPEAKER_03: that's just not something that I think would have happened pre-Breitbart.
• 1:35:46
  And back then,
• 1:35:47
  you know,
• 1:35:48
  people,
• 1:35:48
  you know,
• 1:35:49
  you asked them what they wanted to be.
• 1:35:50
  SPEAKER_03: It was like,
• 1:35:51
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:35:51
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:35:51
  I want to be a columnist for the New York Times or the Wall
• 1:35:53
  Street Journal.
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_03: They were thinking about things in terms of
• 1:35:57
  SPEAKER_03: op-ed pages and the like.
• 1:35:58
  They weren't interested in smashing the ecosystem the way that
• 1:36:02
  Breitbart was.
• 1:36:03
  And I think that they learned to think about their relationship
• 1:36:07
  with the media the
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_03: same way he did,
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_03: which is not as an argument,
• 1:36:10
  SPEAKER_03: but as a war.
• 1:36:12
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_03: you can argue the benefits,
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_03: the downsides of that,
• 1:36:17
  but I certainly think that in terms of the approach that
• 1:36:20
  politicians use today and
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_03: in terms of the approach that the online right uses today,
• 1:36:25
  It has a lot in common with that,
• 1:36:27
  and I think they learned it from watching him.
• 1:36:29
  You know,
• 1:36:29
  I've heard a lot of analysis about how Trump ended up in the
• 1:36:32
  White House in 2016.
• 1:36:35
  This is the first time I'm hearing that the butterfly effect
• 1:36:39
  started with Anthony
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Weiner's mistaken dick pic.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_02: So keep it in your pants, fellas.
• 1:36:45
  SPEAKER_02: You never know what's going to happen.
• 1:36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Any other lessons here?
• 1:36:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the...
• 1:36:50
  I think that the big lesson to take away from this whole thing
• 1:36:52
  is that I don't
• 1:36:54
  think anybody in that moment understood how big of a moment it
• 1:36:57
  was going to turn
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_03: out to be,
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_03: how it was going to change conservative media.
• 1:36:59
  It was going to change the landscape of how people thought
• 1:37:02
  about online media.
• 1:37:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it was going to,
• 1:37:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 1:37:06
  set up a whole range of outer effects in terms of changing the
• 1:37:13
  nature of how people
• 1:37:14
  SPEAKER_03: approach this –
• 1:37:16
  There wasn't that big collection of online journalism media
• 1:37:23
  sites on the right in 2000,
• 1:37:26
  2004.
• 1:37:28
  SPEAKER_03: But after something like this happens,
• 1:37:31
  suddenly people stopped just blogging and they started thinking
• 1:37:33
  about things differently.
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Ben, thank you so much for this history lesson.
• 1:37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I learned a lot.
• 1:37:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, as an internet old, I felt the need to share this.
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_03: When I called Dana Lash and Larry O'Connor and said,
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think I want to talk about this,
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_03: they said,
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 1:37:51
  SPEAKER_03: I have to explain it all the time to people.
• 1:37:52
  So please do a good job of explaining it so I could just send
• 1:37:55
  them a link to the podcast.
• 1:37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:37:58
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
• 1:37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Are you going to be at the inauguration?
• 1:38:01
  SPEAKER_03: I am going to be at the inauguration from 7 a.m.
• 1:38:04
  SPEAKER_03: until 8 p.m.
• 1:38:06
  SPEAKER_03: doing coverage.
• 1:38:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to be sitting outside in what is supposed to be the coldest
• 1:38:12
  SPEAKER_03: inauguration since 1985,
• 1:38:14
  SPEAKER_03: which,
• 1:38:14
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 1:38:16
  SPEAKER_03: isn't necessarily a bad thing unless,
• 1:38:19
  SPEAKER_03: like most politicians in America,
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_03: you are above the age of 80.
• 1:38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:38:24
  Do you think Trump is going to,
• 1:38:26
  he's going to take that,
• 1:38:26
  brag about that as well?
• 1:38:27
  SPEAKER_03: The coldest, the coldest night.
• 1:38:30
  No,
• 1:38:30
  I think,
• 1:38:31
  I think that the,
• 1:38:32
  he'll say the biggest,
• 1:38:33
  the biggest crowd in spite of the cold.
• 1:38:35
  SPEAKER_03: See, it's a, yeah.
• 1:38:36
  SPEAKER_03: So stay, stay warm, everybody.
• 1:38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Ben.
• 1:38:39
  SPEAKER_02: This has been blocked and reported.
• 1:38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Our show is produced as always with help from Jessica,
• 1:38:44
  SPEAKER_02: the eighties baby and welcome back to the Trump era.
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back next week.
• 1:39:02
  Thank you.