Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / How To Become a Christian || Heather Tomlinson || SLP488

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How To Become a Christian || Heather Tomlinson || SLP488 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: In a second, I'm going to be interviewing Heather Tomlinson, who is a journalist, and she was with me at the ARK conference that was convened by Philippa Straud and Jordan Peterson, and we'll be talking about the ways in which this conference might be a little bit of a barometer about where our culture is at, and I'll get her reflections on Jordan Peterson and the Jordan Peterson moment, and we'll be thinking about how we can preach the gospel into the meaning crisis of today.
• 0:36
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• 0:42
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• 0:46
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• 0:50
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• 0:58
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• 1:03
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• 1:08
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• 1:14
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• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: The offer ends on the 5th of January, 2024.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, let's get on with the show.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Here's my interview with Heather Tomlinson.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: We're in a series called The Way Back.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a way back to Christian faith in the midst of our post-Christian West?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: We certainly think so.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And one person who has experienced it for herself is Heather Tomlinson.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: She grew up in the north of England in a very secular environment and came to faith from out of being a journalist for The Guardian.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I began by asking Heather about her time at The Guardian.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, Heather.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, how are you?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing really well.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: We figured out at Arc that I I was in Clarkenwell kind of when you were.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: We were always praying for the Guardian that had its offices in our parish, and uh and and you were there.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if I had have um come along and invited you all to Christmas carols at St.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: James Clarkenwell, what do you what do you think the the responses would have been in the offices?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think you'd had many takers, let's put it like that.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, this possibly like a sort of maybe in some of the older journalists, a bit of a sort of high church um kind of respect for for faith and religion, but I I doubt many people would have gone.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Put it like so I had a very, very vague faith at the time, and some I one memory um of of that experience um was something bad was happening in the world.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: There was there was TV screens and the news was on, and something bad was happening, I can't remember what.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I said, and this is unusual because I didn't spend any time praying really at that time, but I said something like oh, we should pray for that, or something like that.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and someone next to me went, Why on earth would you do that?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of um that would sum up to me how I perceived the spirituality of the guardian.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I d I mean it wasn't really something that was talked about, it wasn't something that people cared about or spent any time thinking, and I would have been the same, you know, in general, religion, faith, spirituality was just not really part of what we thought about and what we did.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: But clearly something was in you.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you have like Christian relatives or were there people praying for you?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's a it's a strange thing for you to say.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, we should pray about that situation.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and actually I put there's a few things I I credit my um or not credit, but um, I think contributed.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So around that time, in fact, while I was working on The Guardian, um I was just I can't really probably having a bit of a meaning crisis, and I remember praying and saying, God, what should I do?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a sense of that God exists that it just made no difference to my life whatsoever at that time, and obviously that started to change as you'll hear.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um I one thing I definitely put it down to.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was a child, there was um a lovely, lovely Christian couple um who worked um with my parents and I knew them quite well.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now they'd never talked to me about God, but they are fully a hundred percent born-again Christians, absolutely um full of enthusiasm for the Lord.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um they um told me when I when I when I converted and I rang them up and told them, um, I don't think I've ever made anybody as happy in my life as those two people when they heard that I'd become a Christian.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the reason for that happiness was because they'd spent a lot of time praying for people, um evangelising, and really trying to help people come to faith, um, and never seen really anything from it.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, Northern England, in in in the culture I was, it it really is hard ground.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but I think they prayed for a lot for me, they were very, very kind to me, and I I knew they were Christian, even though they didn't really talk to me about faith, I knew they were a Christian, it was a very good witness to them because I knew I knew that they cared about me.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I do think those those prayers had something to do with it.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: But why, you know, obviously more than a decade later, I I sort of rather randomly started this spiritual search and um ended up becoming a Christian.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me tell me how it happened.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: How did how did you come to Christ?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a few parts to it.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the the article that I wrote for the critic um is is more thinking about the political aspect of it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: In hindsight, I wouldn't have said it at the time and I didn't realise it.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: In in hindsight, I think what I was pursuing was love.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think a lot of people on a spiritual journey that is what they're looking for.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, a lot of people that is just what they're looking for.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they might they they see something in in politics that they they think is they they have a feeling of this is I want a better world, I want to do something.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an aspect of that I think that is really the pursuit of love or you know, looking for relationships or or whatever.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I started, I knew when I when I left newspapers and I started working on um mental health wards, um I obviously my life then slowed down a lot because when you work on newspapers, everything is super fast, very intense, lots of adrenaline.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and suddenly my life slowed down and I kind of sense I need something spiritual, I want something spiritual.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And in my mind at the time, it was definitely Buddhism, so I went on Buddhist retreats, um paganism, Wicca, I was really interested in that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I was sort of reading a lot and sort of pursuing these things, um, but it didn't i in hindsight, I think what I discovered I didn't find love in those paths.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: That isn't what um I found.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I read the Gospels, partly just as a kind of like a spiritual.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'd read them before, um and it was like something clicked, it was just like, oh, this is it, and it was Jesus' teaching, especially.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um the Sermon on the Mount and and the Gospel of Matthew in general, I think, um, were particularly important, and it was what Jesus was saying, and it just chined, and I knew I knew there was something very right about it, very, very true.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I I started sort of trying to practice it.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if there's anything that's gonna lead you to the cross, it is that because um you soon realise actually this is quite hard to be to not judge is extremely hard.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I still don't manage it, you know.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: More than 15 years into um trying to practice it, I'm I'm still judge, I still get angry, I still I'm selfish, I'm greedy.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I could kind of sense in what I was reading there's love in this, there's I want something about what is being spoken of here.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so, and obviously he also says things like to pray, and so I I started doing that because I was like, I respect this guy, I respect this guy and what he's saying, I'm gonna I'm gonna try and do what he says.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd I'd pray.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I started going to different kinds of churches, and I have to say, being an absolute pain in the backside.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um if anyone is watching this and had to suffer me.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd I'd turn it to a church service, and then I'd go to you know, like a welcome or a greeter or somebody and start arguing with them about something or another, something that the church does wrong, in my um humble opinion.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and but I'd go to the church services and I can still remember certain sermons where something clicked, and I was like, oh, and now I see things a little bit differently, and it was so it's a slow process of doing that, and when I prayed, I'd get those kind of penny dropping moments as well.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'd start to feel something inside.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: There was like a um there was something happening, and I I didn't know what it was at the time, obviously now I'd be able to describe it in Christian terms, but um it was like in you know the Bible uses all kinds of metaphors to talk about this, scales falling from eyes and um and all sorts of things, but it was it was just like having the world opened up in a completely different way and understanding what I'd been looking for and finding love, finding love in God, um feeling more love for others, but and also recognising where in many, many ways that I am not loving, um, and so that being like a recognition of of sin.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And actually I can't I'm terrible at loving, I'm really, really bad at it, and um I really need God uh I need um forgiveness, I need mercy, and I need more importantly the Holy Spirit to help me to love other people and and it and it works, and slowly but surely um and my the way I thought changed, um the way I was changed.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So some of my friends who who knew me before would say things like, Oh, you seem to be a lot more peaceful, you seem to a lot more you're a lot more happy.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and while you know there's there is plenty left to do, as I say, I'm still get things wrong, I'm not perfectly loving people as I would want to do, and I think Jesus wants us to do.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but nonetheless it was just it when I look back, it's just like being a completely different person from where I am now.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so much good, so much good wonderful things from faith.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I don't do anything by heart, so I really you know I read loads, um, I prayed loads, I talked to people loads, um and you know I think when you do that, when you put the effort really into searching spiritually, um then it it tends to to lead to to good things.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, don't I don't look back, no way.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Were you writing things about your own spiritual journey at the time?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And have you gone back and looked at what you wrote?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, so I stopped when I left journalism, and perhaps there was some purpose in this, when I left journalism, I stopped writing and kind of I mean I really loved journalism and writing.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I knew I needed to leave, um, but I l I really loved it, and I couldn't it was it was almost like I had to let go of it completely.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I started this new life, you know, I was working um in the NHS doing something very, very different.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it wasn't until it was a few years after that, and and after I'd become a Christian, um, that I I first offered an article to Christianity magazine and said, you know, are you interested in this?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I haven't really written much about my own faith sometimes here and there.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I was more applying my sort of journalistic background to Christian issues and um and things like that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I have done that ever since.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: But there was a gap, I think it was about four th four years, where I didn't write anything.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: So in that in that period of time when um the spiritual kind of searching and wrestling thing was going on, then no.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I I intend to, at some point I would like to write really more about um Yeah, about the the sort of practical what it was like to be on that journey.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that would be so valuable because I think there are a lot of people who are on that journey, adult converts who have come from a very secular way of seeing the world, and and then starting to see the world differently.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was fascinated that you said that, that suddenly coming to faith didn't just mean seeing the Bible or Jesus differently, it meant seeing the world differently and having your thinking changed.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously the the Greek word for repentance is metanoia, which most literally is translated as change of mind.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a whole bunch of change of mind have r ha happening with with Hebert Hedda Tomlinson, and I wonder whether so many of modern secular people thinking about whether they can come to faith, whether they can try on Jesus for size, um would be really fascinated to see your journey.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can you can you tell us about some of the change of mind, change of thinking that started to happen?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so my my politics completely radically changed.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, I say that.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was a very intolerant lefty before.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um now I wouldn't say that I'm a hundred percent the the other way.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I would say I'm quite open-minded about politics.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know what the answer are answers are to a lot of difficult questions in in society.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a there was a political change, but I think that came about because obviously Jesus asks us to just to not can be concerned about other people's faults until we've sorted our own um self out.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's in different translation it's it's different, but um look at the log in your own eye before you start c being concerned about the spec in others.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's been that was very influential on my politics.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than uh ranting and raving about the government and they should be doing this and they should be doing that, um kind of saying, Well, actually, what am I what am I doing?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um am I working towards the world being a better place?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the answer to that I discovered was actually no, it was not all.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had a I would I I I really was so arrogant, um, and I thought I knew it all, I thought I had the answers, what the government should be doing.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and actually now I really try and avoid those kind of um conversations because when you really get into it, and this is something you do discover as a journalist, when you really get into policy issues, it's really hard and complicated, and it's it's not as simple as um anybody makes up.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Politicians make it, they try and make it simple to win votes, and it's it's not, it's difficult.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there was a there was a huge change in politics, um, maybe just a humility, a more of a humility.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think so there was a lot more l love in my life, but I think there was also a lot more truth.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So being concerned about truth, both in what I was saying, I think in general, you know, people can tell tell a lot of white lies, and it it the the um what's the word, the social pressure to just be honest is less than it used to be.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I started to become much more concerned about whether I was telling the truth, whether I was being honest, um, whether I was doing the right thing.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I started to feel a lot of love for people.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think before, what I might have called love or concern was maybe a little bit more patronizing, a little bit more um I don't know what the word is.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it what what it changed to is is a genuine concern and um and a feeling of love.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not always, obviously, when someone cuts me up um or is in other ways annoying me on the road.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can't say that I'm responding in love in those moments usually.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it was it was almost like um I I've had a lot of very what I think I call mystical experiences, so just incredible sense of love, goodness, joy, peace, God being very, very real.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, I wish I could live like that all the time, I don't, but when when that comes, um it just it's like everything looks beautiful, everything is good, everything um and you don't feel any anger or animos animosity towards anybody.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, knowing when you've had that happen a few times, and especially when it's come at difficult times in life, then you know you you get to a point where you don't you don't have a question or doubt that God exists because it it's just been so real um in a number of different ways.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but it took a long time to get in there.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: There was a whole load of wrestling, debating, arguing, and and you know, in general not feeling love and greatness before those things happened.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I I it it's hard to describe in that critical critic article as trying to put into words, in a small amount of words, what that what that change is.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and obviously 15 years on you can it it happens gradually usually, maybe in big steps at times, but looking back to where I was, it's such a huge and dramatic change but a as it happens, it's it's mostly little steps.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had a very powerful after I got baptized, I was still a very what's the word, questioning, critical Christian, I would say, um definitely quite progressive in politics.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and not that long after I got baptized, then I had a very powerful experience of God's love.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that for it, that was the end of doubting, that was the end of questioning, does God exist?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it real?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: How can I know?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Those kind of questions.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that that was definitely a huge step, but still, you know, after that there was there was still a lot of wrestling, debating and arguing, but it it was a big leap, shall we say, on that journey.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's been lots of three steps forward, two steps back in blind alleys, and you know, it's that it's a journey.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone who's been on the journey of faith knows it's like that.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like a um a bit of a treacherous path sometimes, but um you know what when you when you're on the right path, you know it and you feel it.
• 20:52
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  SPEAKER_02: And now on with the podcast.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: You said that you weren't really you weren't writing for the four years that were sort of most formative in your coming to faith.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: On the other hand, Ayan Hersey Ali, whatever spiritual transformations are happening in her, are kind of being relayed to the public in real time.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a kind of a double-edged sword, isn't it?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I I imagine if if your diaries were published from, you know, 2007, you're you're you're not you're not the rounded Christian that you are in 2023.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Ion Hersey Ali at the ARK conference comes out and you know talks about Christianity and the Judeo-Christian kind of traditions and civilizational Christianity.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and sort of people can can be quite cynical about that and just think, okay, she's just converting for geopolitical reasons.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um but then she has another opportunity and she says, Oh no, there's also the existential issue, and I was very depressed, and I found incredible solace.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then later on, I don't know if you caught on uh the free press uh website at Thanksgiving, she uh made this wonderful statement about what she was thankful for this Thanksgiving.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, you know, for the first time I can thank God.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it it seems to be a really a really kind of a heartfelt thing, but she's having to process this in real time with a whole world and millions of people reading what she's saying.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's a that's a huge pressure on her, I I think.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: H how are you seeing Ayan's like statements about her faith?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Very positively, um, and I can completely understand um why she wouldn't talk about the personal side.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: So she she said um as I think there was two sentences in that unheard piece um about the personal side.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't blame her for not talking about that because um she she knows she was she was an atheist, she was she's friends with um some some of the most famous atheists.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: She knows that when she would publicly put her head above the parrot and say, I'm a Christian, she's gonna get attacked.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you don't want your personal, you know, I I don't want I I'm aware talking about my personal stuff, you get a load of grief and nasty comments and endless sort of um you know atheist arguments and and all sorts.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't blame her at all for uh being very limited in what she's saying.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um clearly um she was a little bit more right wing than I was, and so aspects of the West and Christendom that appealed to her, she's talking about that, and it I I completely understand that it it that's the impersonal side, that's the stuff that um is maybe a little bit easier to talk about.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know that there is there is so much to to Christianity that you can talk about, and so she's choosing one little aspect of it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I obviously I don't know her, I don't know where she is with God, but as you very rightly say, if someone had asked me in maybe not 2007, in 2008, it you know, what I'd have been writing, I'd have been saying the church should be doing this and the church should be doing that, and um I'd have w written something that was you know, you'd have read it and thought, oh my goodness, this this woman is not a Christian, um, she hates the church, or um, you know, you you'd have definitely judged it harshly.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and even as I, you know, as I started writing, I think as well, I was very different.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and everybody changes, you know, as they get older and they get wiser and um things happen which help them to you know see things differently.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I you know I I welcome her.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think she's very brave to have publicly talked about it, being in her position and knowing what um kind of you know hassle and abuse she might get.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and also especially because you know she's had death threats in in her life.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I completely welcome her and don't criticise.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I think some people read my critic article as a criticism of her.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: That is not in in any way how I intended it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I did not um I completely understand what she's saying about seeing the the positive political side of Christianity.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um more my point was on my journey, that is one of the things that attracted me initially, but on my journey, what I came to the view was actually this is true, and that's what matters.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this this faith um is is very true and it's very important.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I I kind of sense that that maybe already has happened with her, I don't know, but um I think um there's this a I'm sure a lot more to her story than um she has publicly said so far.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, exactly.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um you you say in the penultimate paragraph of your critic article, Ion's profession of Christianity did not surprise me.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: I've read stories and interviewed hundreds of unlikely converts.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've even personally known many of them, from divorce lawyers to crack cocaine dealers, scientists to gay rights activists.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: The church is a raggle-taggle consortium, way broader than lazy stereotypes of middle-class leftists or tubthumping conservatives.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um Do you think do you think Ion is emblematic of uh something going on among kind of adult converts to Christianity?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Is is something afoot?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think in the political world there's quite a lot of despair at the moment and concern um at the way we're headed, and there's a recognition that something is not right and something is going in a very negative direction.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that is on both sides of the political spectrum, I would say.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think there's a recognition that we've lost something, and people aren't sure what that is.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some people would still say it's losing socialism or it's losing, you know, it's X number of years of Tory government that's a problem or whatever.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But nonetheless everybody's aware that you know society's not in a good um it's not in good shape and what can we do about it?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think I I certainly I mean I I've pitched articles about faith to secular publications before, um, even ones that seem m more on the open end and I haven't got anywhere, and just the fact that the critic would publish something that was so explicitly um positive and about faith rather than the political aspects of it, I would say is maybe a sign of the times that there is more openness to oh, maybe we need to think about other other alternatives because it hasn't been part of the public square, it hasn't been part of the public conversation um for quite a long time, or not really in any serious way.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm definitely sensing more openness, more interest.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the same time, there's there's a whole load of things that are making people very angry, very ghettoized in their political pockets, getting very angry with each other.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think there's a there's a form of interest in Christianity that is just choosing to make it one of those angry little ghettos.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, we're we're gonna adopt the name of Christianity and we're gonna use it to be really angry and critical about everybody else.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think that's very positive.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to be honest, I probably can't judge because that probably is what I was doing.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um everybody comes to faith for mixed motives, don't they?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like everybody.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like if someone shows up in your church and why are you here, well, they're just going through a divorce, or they lost their job, or their daughter's, you know, in trouble, and they and they don't know where else to turn, and it's not they don't show up saying, I would like to worship the living God.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Where where's my pew?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: They they don't come for the pure reason.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: They everybody comes to faith for mixed motives.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the the other thing about Ion that I think is is people are missing the Tom Holland frame through which she speaks of the geopolitical and Western civilization.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: The Tom Holland frame, I mean she keeps on talking about the the marvellous Tom Holland and his wonderful book Dominion, um, because that is not uh uh that is not uh uh the book for culture warriors.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: That that it that is not a book that says, oh, we must have robust Christianity so that you can wage war on the left or whatever it is.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's definitely not that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: It is take note of how Christianized this Western civilization already is and did you know it it has an origin story, and that origin story is not secular secular liberal values.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and she's pulled at that thread and and found Jesus, it seems to me, rather than she's she's trying to arm herself for the culture war, I think.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, definitely.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, and uh she doesn't seem the sort of angry ghettoized person I was referring to, kind of these these sort of little ghettos often online, I think.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think there is there's a sort of nostalgia that people are thinking, oh actually, maybe there was something in those kind of um this sort of maybe over-idealised um understandings of what England used to be or what the West used to be.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and but I think I think what people are recognising is is that there really isn't much kindness out there.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: That they want more kindness, they want kindness to come back.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um we used to have a sort of sense of being more civil to each other, and that that is one of the things that's changing quite rapidly.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're getting really angry and um sometimes really quite nasty with each other.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely an openness there, but at the same time, I would say compared to when I was becoming Christian when I was growing up, compared to now, the the culture and the atmosphere is much, much more secular, and there is a lot of ideas, quite entrenched ideas, that are very anti-Christian.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think, especially for young people, it's harder to let go of your worldview and to become a Christian because there's a lot more sort of roadblocks, um mental blocks, um, beliefs that you have to question and look at.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously some people just get zapped and they're like, you know, from being whatever they were, they God's like zap and that's it, their kind of eyes are opened and they don't go through that whole wrestling and worldview stage.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think for a lot of people and you know the the sort of people we've talked about, the people who are on a I think one person on Twitter called it Christian adjacent.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so they've got sympathy for Christianity.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um they kind of there's something about Christian civilization or Christian ideas that they like, but they haven't got the faith thing yet.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um for those people who are on a longer journey and a and a sometimes I think a harder journey, um, you know, there there is a lot of things in the way that you have to be open-minded about, you have to examine.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so in some ways it's a lot harder to become a Christian.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: So even though there's a lot more openness, there is also a lot more challenges, I think.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: For those who are Christian adjacent, and and similar to the art conference uh where we were, um, had a lot of Christian adjacent kind of people and Christian-friendly people, people who wish the church well, even if they don't necessarily go themselves.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: What would what would you say to to such people?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like Louise Perry, she had me onto her podcast as soon as Ayan kind of, you know, made the announcement of of uh her becoming a Christian, and we had a chat about that, and she's very church-friendly and and and goes very often, and um and I think of Mary Harrington who's been on our channel, Louise has been on our channel, Tom Holland's been on our channel many times.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um what would you say to such people um who do see uh they they do see that Jesus has built the Western world and all that kind of stuff and all the sorts of stuff that I am has has written about um but perhaps are not yet signing on the dotted line um as as signed up members of the of the Jesus crew.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: What would what would you say to them?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would say pursue um pursue those questions and pursue God um and explore the the traditional ways of doing that.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's is I mean it's in on one level it's really quite simple.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Pray, read the Bible, worship, um and and I would I'd say as well, and I think what helped me a lot was is try and practice it.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, read what does Jesus say and how how can I do it, how can I do it in my own life.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think one one problem is that I think people and I know I have had very powerful mystical experiences that have made a big difference in my faith journey.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when people don't have that, then if they feel like there's something wrong.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I don't think everybody does have those kind of really intense um experiences.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think God tends to deal with us in a very individual way.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so some people are sometimes thinking, well, actually, maybe I'm maybe I'm not getting something because I I don't feel like that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel God's presence, so I don't this, that, and the other.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and maybe that can be a bit of a and and some churches maybe would over-emphasize that that side of things.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um now what would my advice be?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing that is is helpful is to really reflect a lot on love and what is love?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is this love that Jesus talks about?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um when he says love your neighbour, what does that mean?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now his I I would say the New Testament and and the Old Testament, but it's more obviously in a New Testament, is is a manual of well what what is love and how how do you love?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so but asking that question of yourself, I mean, do do other people have views on that?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: When I felt love, what what was that like?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and because I I know when when I've got off track, maybe got a bit too religious or got a bit I don't know angry about something, something political or something religious, or some you know I do find it helpful to think, okay, what are the basics?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Love God, love your neighbour, what does that look like?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what does Jesus say it looks like?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: What does he want me to do?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um so that that's sort of very practical side.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's there's possibly not enough emphasis on Jesus' teaching um in the church because it can be really, really life-changing, um, even if it's just to realise I'm terrible at this.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was this really good person, yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and actually I'm not doing brilliantly at it.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um then it kind of leads you to mercy and actually crikey, I need God, I need God to help me to love, to be, um, to be a loving person.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Getting in touch with that moral dimension is just so important, I think.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and something that can get missed if it's just yeah, if it just be if it's just a civilizational Christianity sort of thing, then we we just need, you know, classical liberal values, and if Jesus helps us, then we get the classical liberal values.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: But if you put into practice the Sermon on the Mount Well, A, you're getting in touch with the profoundly moral dimension of life, and at that point, that is a supernatural thing.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, naturalism does not give you morality, or if it does give you a morality, run run a mile from it.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: But but to put into practice the Sermon on the Mount, that is a very supernatural thing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: To fall short of that is an incredibly convicting thing, and then the requirement for mercy at that point you're you're into real gospel territory rather than just worldview territory, aren't you?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I think God is very, very interested in love and how we love others.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And my experience is that if that is the question I'm bringing to God, like how do I love you, God, or do you love me, God, or how do I love others?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or how do I cope when other people are not loving me?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: When you bring those kind of questions to God, I think he's very, very interested, and you will get help.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: You you might not it might not be the sort of help that you envisage, but it the help will come because God really wants us to be more loving, he wants us to know that we love him, uh he wants us to know that he loves us, he wants us to love him.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: These these are things that God really cares about, and if you are asking really genuine, authentic questions to God of that nature, um I I think you will get an answer.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so I would pursue ask God.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my what what does God think?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, no, I love that.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so prayer and and actually meeting God, you know, this is this is what everybody needs.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: We need we need to meet God.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Prayer, therefore, is vital.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: The prayers of others, um just as you know, your relatives praying for you, the prayers of others are uh are vital.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and as you say, Bible, prayer, worship.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, what I said to Louise Perry on on her podcast is she sort of said, I I haven't had a Damascus Road experience yet.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, there's always the Emmaus Road, which is a different conversion experience, taking a much longer time, and there's a Bible study, and there's a shared meal, and there's the breaking of bread, and um yeah, it's most most people do not have a road to Damascus.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I think only one person really traveled that road.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Saul becomes Paul, but that was that was quite a one-off.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think most of us are uh on a road to a Mayus sort of a thing.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um as we round up, Heather, Jordan Peterson um was sort of the the one who was able to convene such a conference as Ark.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um Philippa Stroud, I think, had the sort of the organizational and and the um the the the heft of institutions around um that could pull off ARK, but I think in terms of the personality that could attract people, um it was Jordan Peterson who i is at the middle of a moment, I guess, among some.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some people have never heard of Jordan Peterson, but if you're extremely online, um then you can't help but know about him and know about the ways in which he's spoken into the meaning crisis.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um what did you make of his contributions at Ark?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you think we as Christians can learn from him?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's I'll I'll leave it at that.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd love to have a chat with John Peterson and ask him what his experience of the past few years has been, because looking at it from his perspective, so I um obviously I've got a scientific background, um, I was trained as I was in the early stages of training as a clinical psychologist.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when he came on the scene, he some of the things he was talking about, especially about personality traits and um the gender differences and things like that, I completely got what he was saying because it's it was a scientific psychology kind of thing he was talking about.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: He was talking in those terms, and if you if you read them in a sort of socio-political way, then you don't understand what he was he's saying.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it then you're reading them as a sort of sexist or or whatever.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't think that was what he was about at all.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: He had certain values that I think would be Christian values, um, and he's and he was trying to do certain things, and a lot of what he was said was completely misinterpreted.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and he became this I mean it it was crazy, wasn't it?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: So was it about 2017 when he was getting so much he was just extremely famous and there was so much criticism, um and he they were saying that he was you know like this father figure for um or the you know the younger generation of of men and and all this kind of stuff.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that must have been very, very strange.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if you do not have a a an active faith to cope with all of that, I'm I'm not surprised if he was really struggling with that behind the scenes.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so when he talks, I kind of see him see him as a little bit he's been he's he's been in a massive battle and you know he's a little bit bruised from it, and um and I'm not surprised, you know, if I'd have been through that.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I I'd have just withdrawn, if I I wouldn't have had the strength to to carry on, I'd have just been like, right, close the doors, I don't want any more of this.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but he's you know chosen to sort of keep battling on.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean he He he's he has a lot of interesting ideas, interesting thoughts.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wouldn't necessarily see things in the same way um as he does.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think he has he has good intentions, he's on a spiritual journey, um and and and seems to be someone who's struggling with with that a bit too.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I I have I just have a lot of um what would be the word?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sympathy is not the right word.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just kind of like a sense of gosh, that is that is a hard the the position he's got is is a hard place to be.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but as you say, I mean he he brought together a lot of I I found ARC really fascinating.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: There were so many interesting people to me.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everywhere you went when you went in the main conference, if you came out and were just chatting, chit-chatting to people outside, everybody had something really interesting to say.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: They were doing something interesting in the world.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a really it was a real privilege to be there.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I did I didn't find the the talks necessarily the the most important thing, it was it was more that kind of um hearing other other people.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: What I did really like from from the front was the optimism.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of hope and positivity, and I think it was quite striking just because we don't get that anywhere at the moment.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's so negative, everything is negative and really quite depressing.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so to be somewhere where everything from the front was was much more positive, actually, let's do something good, let's sort of pursue the beautiful, let's um, you know, it was um even if you don't agree with some of the the politics of some the some of the people who were speaking, it was in general a kind of a let's you know, let's keep on the good path, let's fight the good fight kind of um message.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I came away really inspired and and much more hopeful than I than I was when I went in there and and much more aware of of that.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really hard to protect yourself from to not adopt all that pessimism, to adopt all that despair, and oh my goodness, the world is in such a state.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: And in in lots of ways it is, but it it always has been.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, well exactly, yeah, yeah.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: Were you surprised by how Christian it was?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, massively.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: When they put that, was it on the last day when um someone said everyone put their hands up?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see yourself as having some sort of religious affiliation?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what the way they put it, and nearly everybody put their hands up.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um that that surprised me because I didn't realise there was that many people in the public square who would say that.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean obviously people came from all over the world, so other cultures are much more religious than um than we are.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and the the the Christians there was a lot of Christian speakers, they weren't really talking about faith explicitly, but they were you know, you could hear the by I mean even in in most of the speakers you could hear biblical references, you could hear Christian ideas, Christian values.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, that that definitely did surprise me.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where art goes from here and and and whether it is emblematic of of the way in which the church I think is is and can be a place of hope, to which a world that is recognizing more and more sinking sand might actually flock and and and find hope and find security and find peace and find the love that you're you're talking about, Heather.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um final word, Heather.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: So Ayan Hersey Ali.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like we've we've we've spoken about those who uh might be on a pathway towards faith, and we're very hopeful for Ayan herself.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she says, I l I learn a little bit more each Sunday as I go to church.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: I la I love that uh that she wrote in her unheard article.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there is she and Neil Ferguson, her husband, I think we ought to imagine him next to her, um, given all the sorts of things that have been being said.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, what what sort of advice would you give to her moving forwards?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, from a faith perspective, um my advice would be that that God is a better guide than than me or anybody else, um and to keep praying and and so there's a word that is is used called surrender in Christian circles and um it's got a it's not really the same meaning as how people normally use the word, but really seeking saying saying the words God, what do you want?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe maybe it's not about what I want, what do you what do you want?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and maybe she already has said that.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Who who knows?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: But um what I would maybe would just encourage anybody who's on that path is just is it's worth it, it's worth spending the time pursuing God, pursuing Jesus, um, asking the right questions, um, you know, listening to listening to Christian people from our old um and the the very simple messages of um that they have about love, about prayer, about um the need for forgiveness, etc.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um to just it's really really worth it.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that I can say.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful um that by some miracle I ended up I am where I am now um from where I was and um yeah it really is worth it and and you know once you get there you're kind of like oh like this this thing and it it's so hard to put into words really to describe a faith journey or what's happened to you um and some sometimes can people can get a little bit aggressive about it, but it really really is worth it because the world just becomes so much more interesting, so much better, so much more beautiful, and it just yeah, it's just amazing.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you um mentioned the word surrender there.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: I just looked up her Thanksgiving message for the free press.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: At Thanksgiving, she wrote this.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: She said, I'm thankful to be in my right mind, sane, clear-headed, and connected to my family and friends, connected too to the causes I care about.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: Last th last year, this time, I was in a place of darkness, I felt small, scared, and alone.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: I shrank away from love, I trusted no one.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: I felt lost and longed for oblivion.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: It took time and the unconditional support of my husband, children, and friends who simply refused to leave me alone.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Most important of all, it took surrender to God to get here, to allow myself to feel at peace with him.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: From there to see and feel the love of my family.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm therefore grateful for my loving family, friends and community, thank God.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: I can say now that I can say that now with no shame or embarrassment, but with joy.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: So beautiful, isn't it?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is beautiful.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read that article, but I'm gonna go and look for it now.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's wonderful.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's lots of people giving uh what they're thankful for.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh yeah, published on the eve of of Thanksgiving at the free press.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: But um Heather, how can people uh catch up with you online?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I am not a huge I don't have a huge presence.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm a little bit on Twitter.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um if anyone wants to chat um about faith, that's maybe the best place to go.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's at Heather Tomley.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um Heather then T-O-M Lee, Tomlin, and then yeah, Tom Lee.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Tom Lee, isn't he?
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have a website if you're interested in what I've written.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's mainly for the Christian press, um, which is Heather T.org.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I just put the the articles that I write um when I write them on there.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, I'm always up for a chat about spirituality.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was really surprised because you know what it's like when you often get kind of quite a lot of atheist arguments or comments that you maybe have heard quite a lot of times before, but for the for the critic piece that I I haven't had many of of those at all.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want if anyone every wants to sort of chat through faith um or has questions about it, then I'm always open to um to discuss that.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're a gem Heather.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.