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Time to Set a New Course with Michael Kerr | Ship's Log 15 · Project Candor: Ordinary People. Unexpected Stories

0:02
Jeanne: Our guest today is Michael Kerr.
0:05
Jeanne: Michael is an international speaker and author who helps leaders create inspiring workplace cultures.
0:11
Jeanne: He is the author of nine books, including Small Moments, Big Outcomes, The Jerk-Free Workplace, and The Human Advantage.
0:20
Jeanne: For more than two decades, he has helped leaders around the world build healthier, more human, and more engaging workplaces.
0:27
Jeanne: Michael, welcome to Project Candor.
0:30
Jeanne: Been very excited to have you on the show since the first time I saw your website.
0:34
Michael: Yeah, well, thank you.
0:35
Michael: I'm I'm excited to be here.
0:37
Jeanne: Well, great, great.
0:39
Jeanne: So the way this show goes is I'm gonna ask you some questions about yourself and what you do, and then we're gonna play the signature two truths and a lie and find out even more about you.
0:51
Jeanne: Okay, great.
0:53
Jeanne: I'll get started with some questions here.
0:55
Jeanne: When people hear the phrase workplace culture, they often think about perks, posters on the wall, or company slogans.
1:03
Jeanne: In your own words, what is workplace culture really and why does it matter so much to a business?
1:09
Michael: Workplace culture is, first of all, not those things that you listed.
1:13
Michael: Workplace culture, I like to think of it as the mojo of your workplace.
1:18
Michael: It's the vibe, it's the collective sense of employee experience.
1:23
Michael: Just like we talk about customer experience, we need to talk about what is the experience employees are having in an organization.
1:31
Michael: So workplace culture is all about how you do the things you do, not the what you do.
1:36
Michael: It's the collective rituals and traditions and values and sense of purpose and how you communicate and traditions and all that stuff that make you you and different than any other workplace.
1:48
Michael: And the reason why I talk about this, I dedicate my life to talking and writing about this, is because workplace culture is any organization's number one competitive advantage.
1:58
Michael: It is the number one driver of success.
2:00
Michael: It affects absolutely every aspect of your organization, regardless of what you do for a living.
2:06
Michael: And because this thing called work consumes a huge part of our lives.
2:11
Michael: It has an enormous effect on our mental and physical health, on our family lives, our marriages, our identity, our sense of purpose, on where we live often.
2:21
Michael: Work has a huge, profound impact on our lives.
2:24
Michael: So I think we owe it to the people that we work with, to our customers, our employees, our families, our souls, to create a positive, inspiring, collaborative, humane, human workplace because life is too short to work in a soul-sucking, fun-sucking workplace.
2:41
Jeanne: Yes, I hear what you're saying.
2:42
Jeanne: And I totally agree with you.
2:44
Jeanne: I was gonna ask as you were talking, do you know what percentage of time you spend at work during your life?
2:50
Michael: It's lots.
2:50
Michael: I have it in my last book, Small Moments, the actual hours that we spend at work.
2:54
Michael: And it is insane, right?
2:55
Michael: It is this number one use of our energy, our time, our resources on this short thing called life.
3:01
Michael: And as I joke about in my talks, you know, I don't think any of us are gonna be sitting on the rocking chair at 102 years old, looking back at our work days, saying to ourselves, Boy, if I had to do it all over again, I'd be more of a fun sucker.
3:12
Michael: I'd be more of a soul sucker.
3:14
Michael: I'd take myself more seriously, I'd work in a more serious, depressing, soul sucking workplace.
3:19
Michael: Nobody is going to think that.
3:20
Jeanne: Yeah, it's kind of funny right now.
3:22
Jeanne: In my career, I walked away from corporate environment and doing the podcast for now, and I love it.
3:29
Jeanne: But I don't sit and think about, man, I should have applied for that job.
3:33
Jeanne: Wow, I should apply for the job that was gonna make me work 80 hours more a week.
3:38
Jeanne: So I totally hear what you're saying.
3:42
Jeanne: I like your enthusiasm about it too, because you know, there's other places, and I'm gonna throw this in because I know I worked remote.
3:50
Jeanne: So the culture of a company also includes the people that are out, you know, like say my company main office would be in Charlotte, North Carolina, because that's a big banking hub.
4:02
Jeanne: And then I'm sitting in Florida.
4:05
Jeanne: So, you know, working remote, that's a whole nother culture.
4:08
Jeanne: I have to try to fit in, and then they have to fit me in because I'm dialing it in.
4:14
Michael: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
4:15
Michael: That's and that's a new and big challenge for a lot of organizations, but it's still doable.
4:20
Michael: I think it's just a matter of that organizations, leaders have to be extra uber intentional about thinking about how they connect with their employees who are working remotely, how they include them, how they give them that sense of belonging and psychological safety, how they make them feel like they're still part of the team.
4:37
Michael: And I think this is really important.
4:39
Michael: And we're seeing this right now.
4:40
Michael: I know, I know that in a lot of places in the world, they're just even just starting this year, just starting recently, there's a lot of back-to-work mandating going on where employees are going back to the office or being asked to go back to the office.
4:52
Michael: But there's still a lot of workplaces that have that mix of virtual and in-office workplace employees.
4:57
Michael: And what's really important is to make sure you're not, and I don't think anyone does this intentionally, but I think inadvertently, a lot of organizations and leaders run the risk of treating their remote employees almost like second-class citizens.
5:11
Michael: Like they don't have the same, the same consideration that the folks who are working in the office that we see every day have.
5:18
Michael: So you have to be very careful that you're you're being, as I said, extra intentional to make sure they feel included.
5:24
Jeanne: Right, exactly.
5:25
Jeanne: I don't think I ever felt that piece of it.
5:28
Jeanne: They included me quite a bit.
5:29
Jeanne: You can see other amounted work that I had to do.
5:33
Jeanne: You know, and I'm gonna throw another thing in here, too, that just came to my mind.
5:37
Jeanne: You know, there's a new generation coming up, and they're not seeing the same kind of work environment that perhaps you and I have seen where you kind of live in this one area and then everybody goes into the same building.
5:53
Jeanne: That used to overwhelm me.
5:55
Jeanne: I remember consulting at one company and it was downtown Greensboro, North Carolina, beautiful building.
6:03
Jeanne: I'm not gonna say the name, but I remember being there and the big event happened, and they all went to the foyer.
6:12
Jeanne: The building was built so that there was a stairway, but then each floor had a walkway around so you could see down into the forum foyer down the bottom.
6:24
Jeanne: It was a beautiful building, still still standing.
6:26
Jeanne: That's a great building.
6:27
Jeanne: And they were celebrating a woman who had been there 52 years, and she was finally retiring, and I almost felt sick.
6:40
Jeanne: I mean, I'm not sick for her, I'm happy for her, but I was sick of the thought of I had to go down that elevator every day and cross over to that park and garage every day for 52 years.
6:56
Jeanne: It was I just had a moment.
7:00
Michael: You you saw your future flash before your eyes, then you thought, no, no, that can't be me.
7:06
Michael: I think a lot of people have those moments.
7:08
Jeanne: I know.
7:09
Jeanne: I don't think the new generation's gonna have that because the there is a mix of remote and a lot of people do get to work, you know, remotely, but then there's the problem the companies have, like you said, of reaching out and making sure those people still feel part of the company.
7:23
Jeanne: Well, anyway, so if we're you know moving off that most of our topics, but no, no, no.
7:30
Michael: That's that's totally relevant.
7:32
Michael: That's totally relevant.
7:33
Michael: I know, and uh, you know, the young generation too, we know from so much research, they're they're gonna have so many different jobs compared to a lot of folks in our generation, right?
7:42
Michael: Who who, as you say, in some cases, stay with the same job, same company for 50 years.
7:47
Michael: Well, those days I think are gone for the vast majority of people.
7:51
Jeanne: Right, right.
7:51
Jeanne: Um, my grandparents retired from RJ Reynolds, but now RJ Reynolds, it's still there, but gosh, that's changed forms like a million times, and they keep giving property to Wake Forest University, which I love that because I used to go there.
8:07
Jeanne: But still, I mean, it's the thing that they went there.
8:12
Jeanne: They even swam with the Reynolds family at the big mansion that they had, you know, that that was a really inclusive culture.
8:21
Jeanne: You you should study RJ Reynolds, the philanthropy and everything.
8:25
Jeanne: They're amazing company.
8:26
Jeanne: They were, I don't know what they're like now, that they were an amazing company.
8:29
Jeanne: Made a lot of millionaires.
8:31
Jeanne: If you look at that, what uh Jim Garner was in that movie Um Bulls at the Gate or something.
8:37
Jeanne: I can't remember the name of that.
8:38
Jeanne: Maybe I should know it now.
8:40
Jeanne: But it just came to my mind, so I don't remember.
8:42
Jeanne: But anyway, um, when they sold out to Dole and they made instant millionaires in Winston Sale of lots of people that had been there for their forty almost fifty years became instant millionaires with all their stock.
8:55
Jeanne: But um interesting company.
8:57
Jeanne: You should look at them as a culture because they old culture was great.
9:02
Jeanne: Yeah, my grandma used to keep a scrapbook, it's really crazy, of the um the CEO in you know, everything that was in the newspaper bomb.
9:12
Jeanne: She just loved him because he treated everybody with big respect and she just loved it.
9:19
Jeanne: But that's not a bad anymore, it's not there.
9:23
Michael: Yeah.
9:23
Michael: Well, that's a pretty good uh green flag when you're if you're keeping a scrapbook of your CEO.
9:28
Michael: That's a sign that that's a pretty darn good leader.
9:32
Jeanne: Well, it's a sign of a good leader.
9:33
Jeanne: Maybe now people will call it a little bit of stalking, but man, she was really proud of him because of what they were doing and how he treated her and how he treated my grandfather.
9:44
Jeanne: And it it just was amazing.
9:47
Jeanne: I mean, it it's really amazing.
9:49
Jeanne: So I mean they didn't think about he had all the wealth and we don't, you know, they didn't the people that worked there did not feel that way.
9:59
Jeanne: They were just like, Yay, this is a great job.
10:02
Jeanne: They're treating us nice.
10:04
Jeanne: You know, we love the company, we love going there.
10:07
Jeanne: And when they retired, they got a good pension to live off of.
10:11
Jeanne: So But I don't think that happens now.
10:14
Jeanne: No pensions, and then nobody feels that really camaraderie with a company uh like they did back in that time.
10:22
Jeanne: And I will say, uh, my husband's company is really good to him, so I'm that's another company that um I think is going to be amazing as they move forward, but I won't say their name either.
10:34
Jeanne: But uh I watch what they do and I'm just thinking, yeah, they're different.
10:39
Jeanne: So I know I want to go back to some of your books.
10:42
Jeanne: So it in the book Small Moments, Big Outcomes, you talk about leaders thinking of themselves as culture leaders.
10:49
Jeanne: Hey, we kind of touched on that a bit.
10:51
Jeanne: Oh, good.
10:52
Jeanne: I like the book.
10:53
Jeanne: What changes uh when leaders start seeing themselves through that lens?
10:58
Michael: Yeah, and that that's one of the whole points of writing that book, Small Moments, Big Outcomes, is to encourage leaders to forevermore think of themselves as not just leaders, but culture leaders.
11:10
Michael: And so what does that actually mean?
11:12
Michael: What does that look like?
11:13
Michael: And and that circles back to the start of this conversation.
11:17
Michael: They have to think of themselves as culture leaders because culture is your number one competitive advantage.
11:22
Michael: It's your number one driver of happiness at work, everything you can measure.
11:27
Michael: And so to embrace this idea of being a culture leader means to look at everything you do through the lens of your culture and to consider the fact that, especially as a leader, you have a disproportionate impact on your culture.
11:41
Michael: And everything you say and do either adds to your culture in some positive way or it subtracts from your culture in some negative way.
11:51
Michael: So being intentional as a culture leader means hiring with your culture in mind, training with your culture in mind, talking about it relentlessly, keeping the message of your values and your culture and your purpose alive all the time.
12:06
Michael: It means when you make decisions, and I think this is really important, when you make decisions, you consider your culture always.
12:13
Michael: So, yeah, this is how this decision might affect our customer service or our financial bottom line, but how does it impact also our culture?
12:22
Michael: Does it reflect the desired culture that we want to create here?
12:26
Michael: And will it help us build our desired culture?
12:29
Jeanne: Yeah, you got me thinking of something else, though.
12:32
Jeanne: You're talking culture of the company itself.
12:34
Jeanne: Is that correct?
12:36
Jeanne: And not so much as like I've got to accommodate all the cultures of the world because they work here.
12:42
Jeanne: And I think there's a mismatch there.
12:44
Jeanne: Like, okay, I have my business culture.
12:46
Jeanne: This is what I want to drive and strive for in my company.
12:50
Jeanne: But then these other folks have personal cultures that disagree with what I have.
12:57
Jeanne: And how do you get through that?
12:59
Jeanne: I don't know.
13:00
Jeanne: That's a difficult thing.
13:01
Michael: Yeah, and and I think again, though, that's that's a that's a reason to be intentional about your culture because you want you want to make sure that everyone understands what your norms are.
13:10
Michael: What are our expected behaviors here for how we get along with one another, for how we communicate with one another, how we work together, what are those norms?
13:20
Michael: And we all have to be on the same playbook here when it comes to that, understanding what our values are.
13:28
Michael: I was talking to a CEO just last week, actually, and and he talks about having a very culturally diverse workforce.
13:34
Michael: And he talks about this idea of how, you know, we really encourage people to come and hire people with different perspectives and different points of view and different minds, different thinking, because that's how you get good ideas.
13:46
Michael: We want to make sure we're not hiring clones.
13:48
Michael: However, when it comes to the heart stuff, everybody has to.
13:53
Michael: So he has this wonderful quote about how, you know, it's it's something along the lines of multiple minds, but what just one heart.
14:00
Michael: So everybody has to make sure they're still living by the same values, by the same principles that drive our success in this company.
14:08
Jeanne: Yeah, that's an excellent point.
14:10
Jeanne: I wish a lot of people would think more like a head.
14:12
Jeanne: So you got a lot of work out cut out for you.
14:15
Michael: Yes, yeah.
14:15
Michael: Yeah, well, it makes a huge difference.
14:17
Michael: So I think a lot of people out there in their jobs would wish that their leaders would think like that.
14:22
Michael: Because it it you can make a profound difference in your workplace if you just choose to.
14:27
Michael: And by the way, while we're on that note, when I talk about this idea of being a culture leader too, if you are not the president of your company, which many of you probably are not, or the VP even or a senior leader, that does not mean you can't have a big impact on your culture.
14:41
Michael: So this also applies to the culture of your team.
14:44
Michael: If you are just the the manager, the boss, the supervisor of a small team, you still should think of yourself as the culture leader.
14:51
Michael: You have a profound impact on the culture of your team that can spill over into having an impact on your entire organization.
14:59
Jeanne: Right.
15:00
Jeanne: Very true.
15:01
Jeanne: Yeah, I've heard of little uh stories where people, you know, say it's a manufacturing company and there are employees that work on the line and they come up with some major improvement in how you could streamline a process, and they speak up and it becomes like a money saver, and the company can grow based on their invention or whatever they've seen that other people can't see.
15:28
Jeanne: But there's a lot of leaders that say, Shut up and do what you have to do, don't cross over the line.
15:34
Jeanne: We don't want to listen to you.
15:36
Michael: So I I'm sorry that that we don't we don't pay you the statement, right?
15:41
Jeanne: That is a statement that has been made many times.
15:45
Michael: Yeah.
15:46
Jeanne: I was just gonna say they might have told me that when I was in the Navy because I was always like, Oh, do we have to do it that way?
15:51
Jeanne: This is such a better way.
15:53
Jeanne: But you know, rigid, rigid.
15:55
Jeanne: That's all right.
15:57
Jeanne: Sorry.
15:58
Michael: Yeah.
15:58
Michael: Well, I I I think one of the in my books, the number one most motivating thing, most engaging thing we can do for our people is to ask them for their ideas.
16:08
Michael: When we ask people for ideas, it shows that we respect their wisdom, we respect their experience, we want to hear their voice.
16:14
Michael: And it's one of the number one things employees say they want more of is to just be ask me for my opinions.
16:20
Michael: I see things, I've got ideas.
16:21
Michael: And we can't always do this, but when you ask an employee for an idea, and then that employee actually sees their idea implemented, to me, that is probably the single most powerfully motivating thing we can do for an employee.
16:35
Michael: It shows that they they actually can have an impact in their own work in your company, and that is hugely powerful to give them that sense of influence and control.
16:46
Michael: It's the most inspiring thing we can do.
16:48
Jeanne: Yeah, absolutely.
16:49
Jeanne: And I want to go back on my Navy comment because it was rigid, because you have to be, but there were captains and things that would listen to my ideas.
16:58
Jeanne: So they just say, stay within these guardrails, stay within these guardrails.
17:01
Jeanne: And as long as you do that, yeah, let's make the change.
17:04
Jeanne: So I can't be negative about them.
17:06
Jeanne: I love my experience.
17:07
Jeanne: They have a very strong culture, but I feel like after all these years of being out of the Navy, I still feel like I'm in the Navy club, so I love it.
17:17
Jeanne: So you emphasize that culture isn't built through big initiatives or grand gestures.
17:23
Jeanne: We kind of talked about that, but through small everyday moments.
17:26
Jeanne: Do you have an example of a small moment that created an outsized impact?
17:31
Michael: Yeah, and yeah, and when I talk about this idea of small moments, it is it is to stress the fact that it is often the little thing, and when when I do surveys of what drives employees nuts about their workplace, so often it is just the small little things that we all have control over.
17:45
Michael: You don't have to have special training, you don't have to get a master's degree and how to be nice and thoughtful and not be a jerk.
17:51
Michael: It's the simple little things that make a difference.
17:54
Michael: It's remembering to just be be kind, to say please and thank you, to say good morning to people.
18:00
Michael: Like literally, these are the small things that when we do them, they make a profound difference.
18:05
Michael: When we don't do them, they have an irritant on our culture, on motivation and engagement.
18:11
Michael: So I know I know a company, for example, a bank, where they just have this ritual where every single employee makes a point of going around and saying a proper intentional good morning to everyone else.
18:22
Michael: Now, they don't get into a chat about the weather and the game last night because then, you know, there goes an hour with everybody catching up with each other.
18:30
Michael: But they do this and they talk about how just that simple little gesture has a profound impact on everyone's mood, on their attitude going into work that day.
18:40
Michael: And the key is to be intentional about that, right?
18:42
Michael: So they just make this intentional personal connection.
18:46
Michael: And so those small things that we do, and again, especially as leaders in meetings, the small gestures that we do to make sure we're listening properly, that we're making sure everybody's voice is heard, all those simple little things, the way we recognize people just in small ways.
19:01
Michael: I mean, for goodness sakes, you know, when you talk about a small moment, just leaving if you don't have a thank you card, if you don't have, you know, you don't have a gift for somebody, that doesn't matter.
19:10
Michael: If you just write on a post-it note a sincere message of appreciation, that has a huge impact on people.
19:17
Michael: So I do stress this fact that it isn't about the big events, it's not, you know, you're the stuff you can always check off on a to-do list.
19:24
Michael: It's the simple moments, day-to-day that you do consistently that builds a great culture.
19:31
Jeanne: Right.
19:31
Jeanne: You made me think of something I haven't thought about in a long time.
19:35
Jeanne: It's our son, when he graduated from middle school, it was so shocking to me.
19:41
Jeanne: Because, you know, you've got all the parents sitting there and then the little kids are parading over the stage.
19:47
Jeanne: Guess well, I guess it's eighth grade, so they're not so little, but anyway, in each group, you know, they bring a bunch of relatives and then they're all clapping, you know, when their kid goes across.
19:56
Jeanne: Well, our son went across.
19:58
Jeanne: It was just me, my husband, and his sister, and you know, but all these claps, you know, from this little section over in the left, and they're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:07
Jeanne: And I'm like, Who are these people?
20:09
Jeanne: After the fact, I went and talked to them, and he said, Oh, we're the cafeteria workers.
20:16
Jeanne: They said, Your son comes in every day and stands at the door with us because we greet people when they come into school, and he says, How are you today?
20:26
Jeanne: Did you sleep well?
20:28
Jeanne: I was floored.
20:31
Michael: That's awesome.
20:32
Michael: What a good story.
20:33
Jeanne: What I'm sorry.
20:34
Michael: Yeah, oh, what a cool story.
20:35
Michael: That's awesome.
20:37
Jeanne: Yeah, I never even told him to do that.
20:38
Jeanne: I mean, it was just one of these mom like cry moments, and I'm almost feeling that way.
20:43
Jeanne: But um, yes, I was just taken back.
20:47
Jeanne: I was just like, Are you serious?
20:48
Jeanne: That he and so you go, Yeah, every day he wonders about how we are, wants to shake our hand, but then stand with us and then agree to other people as it comes.
20:57
Jeanne: I'm like, oh my gosh.
20:59
Jeanne: And I mean, I barely got him through school, but he was he's a sweet, person.
21:06
Jeanne: So he has some more stuff.
21:08
Jeanne: You talk and write a lot about the role of humor at work.
21:12
Jeanne: Sometimes many leaders still feel hesitant about that.
21:15
Jeanne: Yeah, I don't know why.
21:16
Jeanne: Why do you believe humor is so critical and what does healthy effective humor actually look like in the workplace?
21:23
Michael: Yes.
21:23
Michael: Well, I yes, I think it's so critical.
21:25
Michael: I wrote an entire book, The Humor Advantage: Why Some Businesses Are Laughing All the Way to the Bank, which I'm gonna shamelessly plug in.
21:32
Michael: Yeah, humor is absolutely critical.
21:35
Michael: You know, I I quit a soul-sucking, fun-sucking job as a manager, and and I was known for my sense of humor as a manager.
21:42
Michael: And when I left that job to do what I do now, write and speak about humor in the workplace and inspiring workplace cultures and leadership, I decided one of my core messages was going to be that life is too short not to have fun at work, and work is too important not to have fun at work.
21:58
Michael: And I started doing all this.
21:59
Michael: Research on the power of humor in business and discovered all of these incredible benefits that humor has in the workplace.
22:06
Michael: So I honestly believe it is one of the key drivers of success in terms of building a better workplace culture.
22:13
Michael: But also there's a chicken and egg relationship here.
22:15
Michael: It reflects a positive, inspiring workplace culture.
22:19
Michael: So if you're doing all the things you should be doing to build a respectful, trusting, humane workplace culture, then it becomes easy for everyone to just bring their sense of humor along for the ride because we feel good about our work.
22:32
Michael: So it's easy to have a little bit of fun.
22:34
Michael: And what I stress is that I'm not talking about telling jokes or being the office comedian, being a stand-up comedian.
22:42
Michael: It's it's much bigger than that.
22:43
Michael: It's about it's about just being more human, more authentic, more real.
22:47
Michael: It's about finding ways to laugh with people, not at people.
22:50
Michael: It's about laughing at ourselves more, especially lightening up on ourselves.
22:55
Michael: Is it not a truism, after all, as I say all the time, that so often people take themselves so seriously?
23:02
Michael: And when we take ourselves so seriously, the reality becomes no one else takes you seriously because you're taking yourself so seriously.
23:10
Michael: So it is one of the best ways to connect with other people, to just lighten up on ourselves.
23:15
Michael: And so we know humor helps us manage stress effectively in the workplace, helps us communicate more effectively, helps us have better meetings, better customer experience.
23:24
Michael: There's all sorts of studies that show that we are more creative and innovative when we tap into our sense of humor.
23:29
Michael: So there's all sorts of benefits to bringing a little bit of lightness and levity and humor into the workplace.
23:35
Michael: And we know from studies lower absenteeism rates, lower employee turnover rates, better health and wellness scores, everything moves in the right direction if we just choose to bring a little more humor into our workplace.
23:48
Jeanne: Absolutely.
23:49
Jeanne: Well, I can tell you all my jobs eventually, I guess.
23:52
Jeanne: But uh there was a time at Citibank and they had a CEO.
23:56
Jeanne: I'm not gonna I don't remember his last name, but he would come around and he would visit.
24:02
Jeanne: And he would um because they have a million CEOs, it seems like this was the CEO of one banking area, and you know, he would come to the building and he would walk around, he'd talk to people.
24:16
Jeanne: And I started working there, and it was a time for his visit.
24:20
Jeanne: I saw all these people.
24:22
Jeanne: Oh, I have to get down to the cafeteria.
24:25
Jeanne: He's here, he's here.
24:27
Jeanne: And I I was like, Really?
24:30
Jeanne: Why do you care?
24:31
Jeanne: And they're like, Oh, he's wonderful.
24:33
Jeanne: He remembers my kids' names.
24:35
Jeanne: He jokes about how um I wonder if you try this recipe that we talked about the last time I was here.
24:43
Jeanne: They were just in love with this guy, and it was because he was hilarious and had fun with them, and they all wanted to go.
24:50
Michael: Yeah, oh that's great.
24:52
Jeanne: I know, and that was amazing, but he retired.
24:54
Jeanne: Oh, farmer, right right when I started there, he retired.
25:00
Michael: You you mentioned a classic small moment there, right?
25:02
Michael: You said he knew everyone's kid's name, those are the kind of things people remember and make such an impact.
25:09
Jeanne: Thousands of people.
25:10
Jeanne: Yeah, somehow he did it.
25:12
Jeanne: I don't know what he did.
25:13
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
25:13
Jeanne: That's amazing.
25:14
unknown: Yeah.
25:15
Jeanne: Yeah.
25:15
Jeanne: Like one girl said, I was pregnant last time he was here.
25:19
Jeanne: Now I've had my baby.
25:20
Jeanne: Um, you know, I want to show him pictures.
25:23
Jeanne: I was floored.
25:24
Jeanne: I was like, I've never, never seen anything like it.
25:28
Michael: Oh, that's great.
25:28
Jeanne: Yeah.
25:29
Jeanne: Oh, well.
25:30
Jeanne: Oh reflecting.
25:32
Jeanne: Not everyone listening, and you mentioned this already, it has a leadership title, like not being the CEO, the VP, an executive libel, or an influence at an influence level.
25:44
Jeanne: If someone isn't the boss, how can they still meaningfully influence their team or contribute to a positive workplace culture?
25:52
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
25:52
Michael: Well, I wro I wrote a book on that too, The Jerk-Free Workplace, how to step up as a frontline leader, essentially.
25:57
Michael: And so I remind people that that true leadership at work has nothing to do with your job title or where you sit on the organizational tree.
26:05
Michael: It's about your ability to influence the people around you in a positive way.
26:09
Michael: It's about your characters, it's about you living your values out loud.
26:12
Michael: So, regardless of where you are in your organization, if you're a frontline employee, please know that you have a lot more influence and power than you maybe appreciate just through your presence, through your ability to influence at least your small piece of the pie by thinking similarly, as we've talked about, by thinking like a culture leader.
26:33
Michael: What can I do in my position to make a positive impact on as many people that I work with around me?
26:39
Michael: How can I model what great customer service looks like?
26:42
Michael: How can I make sure I'm bringing my best attitude to work every day?
26:46
Michael: How can I make sure I'm bringing my sense of humor to work every day?
26:50
Michael: And I have stories that I share where there are examples of frontline employees rallying together in very, very difficult, demoralizing workplace cultures to change the workplace culture in profound ways.
27:06
Michael: So please know that you still can make a huge difference, regardless of whether you are a true manager leader or not.
27:15
Jeanne: True.
27:16
Jeanne: And it also can say lots of people don't want to be the leader.
27:21
Jeanne: They do want to have a good job and they want to do a good job.
27:25
Jeanne: They don't want to be the cheese.
27:28
Michael: There's nothing wrong with that.
27:29
Michael: And in fact, it's it's great for to be self-aware and recognize that.
27:32
Michael: Yeah, nope.
27:33
Michael: I do not want to manage other humans.
27:35
Michael: I'm good where I am now, and but I'm gonna do the best possible job doing what it is I do here.
27:41
Jeanne: Thanks.
27:42
Jeanne: Very true.
27:43
Jeanne: Well, you've worked a riot wide range of org with a lot of organizations over the years.
27:48
Jeanne: Have you seen businesses that truly shifted their results by focusing intentionally on culture?
27:53
Jeanne: And what did they do differently that stood out for you?
27:56
Michael: Oh, absolutely.
27:57
Michael: So many examples.
27:58
Michael: I went to Copenhagen, Denmark, and and spent time with this very inspiring company, AFA JC DeCaux.
28:05
Michael: And they they totally revolutionized, ramped up their workplace culture by doing this very simple exercise.
28:11
Michael: They'd come up with four new core values.
28:13
Michael: One of them was a spirit of fun, by the way.
28:15
Michael: And they did this very simple exercise where they just had everybody once a week live one value.
28:22
Michael: Let's just focus on one value per week, but let's live it in an outrageously loud way.
28:27
Michael: Like just go crazy with this value and show what's possible.
28:30
Michael: And then week two, we'll focus on value two, week three, value three, week four, value four.
28:34
Michael: At the end of about six months, everything they measured moved in a positive direction.
28:40
Michael: And 100% of the employees there said, I now work for a brand new company.
28:44
Michael: So they totally, just within six months, ramped up their culture.
28:48
Michael: You were talking about the Navy before, and I I talk about this example from the USS Benfold military destroyer ship, where Michael Abershoff, the youngest commanding officer in modern U.S.
29:00
Michael: Navy history, he took over and he's written a book about this.
29:03
Michael: I've spoken at events with Michael, really inspiring guy.
29:06
Michael: I interviewed him for a couple of my books, and he talks about transforming this one ship that was a mess because of their culture.
29:13
Michael: They had a really, really bad culture.
29:15
Michael: And within about a year and a half, they ended up winning an award as the best ship in the Navy.
29:21
Michael: They totally transformed that ship by just focusing on a few principles around culture.
29:27
Michael: So we see this in all sorts of organizations.
29:29
Michael: A call center that I've worked with, where they have this incredibly inspiring culture.
29:34
Michael: Argus Industries in Winnipeg, Manitoba, an incredibly inspiring culture that they have ramped up by focusing on this idea that we are just one team.
29:43
Michael: So people work in different departments, but we just have one central team.
29:47
Michael: And so I see these examples everywhere and in every type of organization.
29:52
Jeanne: Fantastic.
29:52
Jeanne: I'm going to go back on the transcript and find that Navy name and check his story out.
29:57
Jeanne: I really love those kind of things.
29:59
Jeanne: Yeah.
30:01
Jeanne: Okay.
30:02
Jeanne: Well, I would like that you gave that example specifically, but also the one team.
30:07
Jeanne: I think I've been in a company of one team, but I don't think they pulled it off so well.
30:11
Jeanne: I guess it's a difficult task.
30:14
Jeanne: Uh before we go any further, it's time to open the door to one of my favorite parts of the show, and that is our signature game, Two Truths and a Lie.
30:23
Jeanne: I'm going to read three story headlines from your life.
30:26
Jeanne: Two of them are true.
30:28
Jeanne: And one is a lie or a twist.
30:31
Jeanne: This episode is sponsored by Rebel 180, the home of brave pivots and fresh starts.
30:39
Jeanne: Rebel 180 is all about helping you rediscover what's possible when you stop settling and start listening to that little tug inside that says, Life can be different.
30:49
Jeanne: Whether you're navigating a career shift, dreaming about a new direction, or standing at the crossroads wondering if it's time for your own 180-degree turn, Rebel 180 is a reminder.
31:00
Jeanne: You don't need permission to change your story.
31:02
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31:33
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31:38
Jeanne: Thank you to our sponsors.
31:40
Jeanne: So let's see, your three stories are Michael was once chased by a mob of beaver scouts while dressed in a giant beaver costume.
31:53
Jeanne: Number two, during a helicopter fight, Michael was suspended below the helicopter as it flew through the air.
32:00
Jeanne: And number three, while emceeing a major corporate event, Michael got to introduce Bruce Springsteen.
32:08
Jeanne: Alright, so out of those three, and knowing you, just this little bit of time, I don't know.
32:14
Jeanne: Everything seems plausible.
32:16
Jeanne: Number three might be the one I would say no to just because it's too obvious.
32:22
Jeanne: I know that you could be in that position.
32:25
Jeanne: So you tell us how did you end up being chased by beaver scouts?
32:29
Michael: Okay.
32:29
Michael: In a former life, I worked as a manager in uh for Parks Canada in the beautiful Canadian Rockies in Bath National Park.
32:36
Michael: And our mascot was a giant beaver.
32:38
Michael: So I was dressed in this giant beaver costume and I had to do this thing at a huge Boy Scout jamboree.
32:44
Michael: And it was the hottest day of the summer.
32:46
Michael: I was melting in this suit.
32:47
Michael: I was starting to have almost a panic attack.
32:50
Michael: And I was trying to get away from these kids, and it was just the whole, the whole event kind of spiraled.
32:55
Michael: It was something you'd see in a comedy movie, spiraled out of control.
32:59
Michael: And I literally had to run from these kids, and they started chasing me, thinking I was going back to the forest, which I did.
33:06
Michael: Like I ran from, I literally ran from them, ran across the street, stopped a motorhome in its tracks, which is they must have wondered what the heck was going on, and ran into this forest to get away from these kids that were chasing me.
33:19
Jeanne: You must have been really um realistic looking.
33:23
Michael: It was it was a goofy costume.
33:25
Michael: It was these were young kids.
33:28
Jeanne: So for those folks that haven't gone to your website, they need to, then you'll believe this story.
33:33
Jeanne: I'm at number two, the helicopter.
33:38
Jeanne: What were you doing?
33:39
Michael: Yeah, well, same.
33:40
Michael: And in that that part of my career, it was actually on the last last day of my my job before I I left there.
33:46
Michael: We were doing a open house for the public.
33:48
Michael: And uh my good friend, who was the head of public safety at the time, he said, Come on out, come on out, Mike.
33:54
Michael: I uh I need your help with something.
33:56
Michael: And uh I I unwittingly went out, not knowing what he was roping me into.
34:00
Michael: And he said, Lie down on this stretcher.
34:02
Michael: And uh helicopter takes off, and I'm suspended below from this long rope, long cable below the helicopter, and he's sitting on one end of this stretcher, and we're flying through the sky in just this little tiny stretcher.
34:16
Michael: I'm looking down thousands of feet below at the earth.
34:21
Michael: Because that that's how they would rescue people sometimes, mountain climbers that would get stuck on mountains, right?
34:25
Michael: They would use this contraption to pluck them safely off the mountains.
34:29
Michael: So I got I got the chance to experience what that was like, and it was it was both uh terrifying and uh very exhilarating at the same time.
34:38
Jeanne: Okay, all right.
34:39
Jeanne: Now, story number three, Michael.
34:41
Jeanne: You did say that one was the lie, but you did introduce somebody.
34:46
Jeanne: You started telling me when I said, oops, don't do that.
34:50
Michael: Yes, yeah.
34:50
Michael: So no, I I did not let the introduced the boss, but I did introduce the Canadian singer Jann Arden, but so I just I just I just switched up to the singer.
35:02
Jeanne: Oh, the singer might be um more well known in the US in the Canada than in the US.
35:09
Jeanne: Oh yeah, I did.
35:11
Michael: She's she's very well known, very well known in Canada, yeah.
35:14
Jeanne: Yeah, I the only Canadian singers I know.
35:16
Jeanne: It's Michael Bublé now.
35:18
Michael: Michael he's Canadian, yeah.
35:20
Jeanne: Yeah, and um that um great opera singer that he sings with sometimes.
35:26
Jeanne: I think he's from Canada.
35:27
Jeanne: Or is David Foster from Canada?
35:29
Jeanne: They got you got a lot of Foster from Canada.
35:31
Jeanne: Yeah, you got a lot of musicians up there.
35:33
Jeanne: I know uh Ann Murray way back in the day.
35:35
Jeanne: Yeah.
35:37
Jeanne: That's going way back now.
35:39
Jeanne: I know.
35:39
Jeanne: Well, I go way back.
35:41
Jeanne: So do I Time Machine, it never stopped.
35:45
Jeanne: Um well hey Michael, you've been a fantastic guest, and sorry for the technical difficulties we we had.
35:51
Jeanne: We're gonna recover those.
35:53
Michael: It happened.
35:53
Jeanne: Yep.
35:54
Jeanne: But you've given a lot of food for thought here, and I know the um the guests uh, you know, really will enjoy hearing what you have to say.
36:03
Jeanne: So uh normally I would have a sheet that would say how they could get in touch with you, but since we're having technical difficulties, I'm not gonna try that again.
36:11
Jeanne: But please tell them how to contact you.
36:13
Jeanne: The what's the best way?
36:15
Michael: Yeah, you can reach me through my website, www.mikekerr.com.
36:21
Jeanne: Great.
36:21
Jeanne: And you said if they go to your website and subscribe to your newsletter, they'll be able to get a free PDF.
36:28
Michael: Right.
36:28
Michael: Yes, yes.
36:29
Michael: I do a weekly inspiring workplaces newsletter that has rave fans that talk about all this stuff and it's fun and lots of humor in it, and you will get a free ebook called 401 Ways to Create a More Inspiring, Unrocking Workplace.
36:45
Jeanne: Thanks for joining me on Project Candor, where the doors are open, the stories are unexpected, and the treasure is always real.
36:52
Jeanne: If today's episode made you laugh or think, follow the show and share it with your crew.
36:57
Jeanne: Otherwise, I might just make you swab the deck.
37:00
Jeanne: I'm Jeanne Andersen, your Admiral of the Unexpected.
37:04
Jeanne: See you on the next voyage.