Latest / Project Podcast / Crisis Talks – Joanna Rowland, HMRC

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Crisis Talks – Joanna Rowland, HMRC · Project Podcast

0:01
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:05
the project profession. Hi, I'm Emma, defeated.
0:09
The editor project apm's quarterly Journal this.
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Our crisis talk season of podcasts.
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I'm asking project professionals to share their stories of
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managing adapting and pivoting their projects through lockdown
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and now during this next phase, as restrictions are, he's, so
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thanks for joining me in this episode.
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We'll be meeting Joanna Roland director of Her Majesty's,
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revenue and customs. Covid-19 Response, Unit
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responsible for the Department's strategic approach.
0:36
The pandemic. Joanna, is the senior
0:38
responsible officer in charge of delivering the Chancellor's
0:41
Flagship economic interventions. The job retention
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self-employment Income Support schemes as well as the new eat
0:48
out help out and job retention bonus schemes.
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Joanna is also the head of the project delivery profession for
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a channel C and is a fellow of the association for project
0:57
management. She's been at the very heart of
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the government's response to the pandemic.
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So it was a privilege to get some time with her to ask what
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it's been like to be in the thick of it.
1:08
If you want a detailed blow-by-blow account of how
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Joanna approach the photo project, please watch out for
1:13
y'all to miss your project which will be landing with you in the
1:16
middle of September. I spoke to Joanna and early
1:19
August just after the eat app to help out scheme launch.
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We pick up the conversation when she tells me a bit about what
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she was working on at the start of 2020.
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Joe, welcome. I'm not sure how you've managed
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to find the time to speak to me, but we're hugely grateful.
1:38
Let's begin with. You.
1:39
Tell me a bit about what you were doing at the beginning of
1:43
the year. What projects are you working
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on? At the sort of 2020 which seems
1:47
like a lifetime ago now? Sure.
1:49
And it does seem like a lifetime ago.
1:51
So 2020. I was leading making tax digital
1:55
for business. That's hmrc's Flagship program,
2:00
which is intending to And all tax registrations digital,
2:05
collect all the information digitally, but also more
2:08
importantly, help small businesses, particularly manage
2:11
their tax Affairs, more easily. And how was that going at the
2:15
time? It's going really well.
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In fact, since I've left and been doing something different.
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They've just announced the new phase where they'll start to
2:27
mandate the use of digital technology for income tax
2:30
registrations. So, so, it's picked up a lot of
2:34
pace actually since I left, although it was busy at that
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time. So anything to do with the
2:40
results of the projects, you've been working on as well at the
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moment. The success of those has that
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accelerated that those projects, one of the things working on
2:50
these projects has really shown us is sometimes the limitations
2:54
of the data we hold and certainly making tax digital has
2:59
shown that the more Records. We hold the more instant access
3:05
to information. There is the more responsive the
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tax system can be. So undoubtedly, it strengthened
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the business case for making tax digital covid-19 struck, I guess
3:17
March maybe earlier for you, but can you tell us what it was like
3:21
in the early days of the crisis? I got a call, I think on a
3:26
Thursday night from my then boss to ask whether I would Go and
3:32
Lead, one of the projects that was coming out of the
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Chancellor's office. That project was actually the
3:38
self-employment Income Support scheme and the next morning.
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It emerged. There were actually two
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projects. The other one was the furlough
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scheme, as it's generally known, although it's their ctrs
3:51
coronavirus job, retention scheme.
3:53
Is its official name, had this phone call.
3:56
I then by the Friday morning had a new boss, Melissa Tatton who's
4:01
been A supportive. And it emerged, there was a
4:04
third part to this role as well, which was to coordinate the
4:09
whole of the response to coronavirus across the
4:12
department. So it wasn't just to project
4:14
manage the schemes. There was also quite a
4:17
leadership challenge in in, just at the coordination.
4:21
Everything from getting 67,000, people working from home to
4:26
updating our policies and guidance and also to an extent
4:32
Stopping some of the usual activity of the tax system, that
4:35
just were not appropriate to do such as sending our compliance
4:39
teams out to do home visits, Etc.
4:43
So was it primarily about crisis management?
4:46
Then there were a few elements in the early days that was
4:51
certainly crisis management, but I think the first thing I
4:57
recognize coming into the Rival, was actually this was going to
5:01
stay with us for While. And in a way, the last thing we
5:05
needed was Crisis management. And what instead what we needed
5:09
was very controlled leadership and management of this being a
5:14
project person through. And through, I love a bit of
5:16
governance. We all do governance is your
5:19
best friend. It keeps you in control.
5:22
So one of the first jobs of that Friday, was to set up the
5:27
governance structures both for the projects, but also the
5:31
wider. Our organization to make sure
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that we could coordinate this in a way that was very controlled
5:39
and not reactive or crisis management.
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Can sometimes mean that you know, you're all headless
5:47
chickens and and and the high octane and and that generally
5:51
doesn't drive the best decision making that said, the governance
5:55
was kept light touch. So it was really important.
5:59
But neither was there time for for Or meetings, so I needed to
6:06
put in place the governance structure that was able to be
6:10
highly adaptive really, really efficient fairly light touch but
6:16
have a iron grip of control around our projects and
6:20
responses. How did you prioritize things
6:24
there? Because a lot of new things were
6:27
kind of landed on your desk and as you mentioned the whole shift
6:31
of working from I'm home. Plus those adrenaline-fueled
6:34
days and also a lot of fear around what was happening.
6:39
How did you manage to prioritize things so well, and how did you
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feel at the time? First of all, I I felt
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brilliant. It was, you know, it's what I
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love to do. You don't often get something so
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important, but such a blank canvas as well.
6:59
All of this was brand new and needed setting up.
7:02
Scratch. And that was an amazing
7:03
opportunity and certainly a bit of a career highlight for me the
7:08
priority it was it was risk-based.
7:12
So clearly the chancellor schemes were the highest
7:15
priority and the furlough scheme was the highest of that because
7:20
it was the most needed for the economy.
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So we had only four weeks to get that one designed set up
7:30
delivered and then operational. The governance to allow the
7:34
department to take the weight of the work.
7:38
But in a way that was coordinated, was the second
7:41
highest priority for me. And then, to be really Frank
7:46
about it. The rest was just really, really
7:49
long hours. It's not the way you can work
7:52
for long and it's not anything, I endorse but it was just
7:57
necessary at that time. So I was 16 hour days was just
8:02
The norm for the first few weeks.
8:06
Tell me a bit about how the team came together.
8:09
You wrote a really great feature for the Autumn issue project
8:14
explaining in detail, the approach you took to the project
8:17
and something that impressed me from that was the sense of
8:21
collaboration, you know, with many different kind of
8:24
stakeholders inside. And outside.
8:26
Was that something that just came about?
8:28
Spontaneously, you had something called ruthlessly simple, which
8:32
sounds a brilliant idea but was it for?
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But she all had a very clear purpose in mind and kept things
8:40
simple that they needed everyone to collaborate.
8:43
There were three things that were very deliberate choices in
8:48
those early days. So the first was to set up what
8:52
I call a hub-and-spoke model. And this is where I literally
8:58
grabbed from all corners of hmrc.
9:01
Just a handful. I think no more than about 10 or
9:04
15. Asked people to run the central
9:08
project for see duress and then the equivalent for
9:12
self-employment, but then we reached out across hmrc to get
9:18
what I called accountable owners for all the different
9:21
specialisms. So, you'd get somebody who
9:24
specialized in compliance. You did someone who specialized
9:27
in operating, our contact centers.
9:29
You'd get a lawyer. You'd have obviously the very
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important, very talented, digital teams all Those
9:36
accountable owners, were were responsible for doing their bit
9:40
completely empowered, completely trusted, but they could not make
9:45
decisions anywhere other than, as part of that Central project.
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If they were designing an element.
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They would need to come back to the project just to make sure it
9:53
matches the other elements. So that was the first thing,
9:56
this Hub and spoke model where the the people actually doing
10:01
the delivery, we're empowered, but the control remained with
10:06
the A central project was that of an approach you to used
10:09
before in other major projects. I have in the past.
10:13
Not with hmrc. I'm a great believer that
10:15
projects should transcend normal structures and therefore not be
10:21
pigeonholed into structures that they should work across an
10:24
organization. Because that's where you get the
10:26
whole organization. Partaking as head of project,
10:29
profession for hmrc. It's been a long-running
10:32
ambition of mine to set up projects in that way.
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And here was my chance. It was my opportunity, the, the
10:41
other two elements to how we approach.
10:44
This was the ruthlessly simple. That was actually a phrase
10:49
coined by our CIO, very talented, man, and to whom a lot
10:54
of the successes Duty and who certain what's his name, Mark.
11:00
Denny. He was fantastic at keeping us,
11:04
all on that principle of ruthlessly simple.
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And it meant that we did not get scope.
11:09
Creep. What we did notice is in the
11:13
early days, when four weeks to set up a major
11:17
multibillion-pound scheme like this felt impossible, keeping.
11:21
It ruthlessly simple was actually quite easy.
11:24
People got the concept as we started to sort of, you know,
11:29
make astounding leaps in progress.
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That's when people started to that sort of.
11:35
Can you just syndrome? Started to Nippon Mark and I had
11:39
to be all over that. And actually, that was our third
11:42
principle. You need to bulldoze out the way
11:46
the blockers and sometimes that is sometimes you know, it's a
11:53
ask politely sometimes. It's actually just really quite
11:58
assertive structures in place to make sure that you are not
12:03
letting anything distract you from getting the job done.
12:06
Done. How did you feel you daunted?
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Or were you excited in that four weeks, running up to the
12:14
furlough scheme? And then of course, the self
12:17
employment, scheme went live three weeks after that.
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I think I had every emotion that a human being could possibly
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have. It was I you know, it ranged
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from thoroughly, daunted, even terrified actually thinking, you
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know, how can the logic Of being able to do this successfully in
12:39
such a short period of time. Sometimes just didn't stack up.
12:43
Even though the evidence was thankfully, before us I had
12:48
Elation excitement, you know, it was the whole Gambit of
12:53
emotional response in that time that period of extreme crisis
12:59
has passed a bit in business in general, but do you feel you
13:04
bonded quite closely with the people you are working?
13:06
Beyond that. It's somehow changed that level
13:09
of collaboration. Oh, incredibly.
13:12
Absolutely. Yeah.
13:13
Really close. And there is people that I've
13:16
never physically met. That's the other in credit
13:20
because hmrc's such a massive organization.
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And of course, we had our suppliers capgemini as well as
13:26
very close partners with us, and there are people that I had
13:31
never actually physically been in the same room with that.
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Now feel like close friends because You bombed, everything
13:39
was done at PACE, including, you know, bonding with friends.
13:44
Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Hopefully you'll meet them soon.
13:48
Yes, indeed. Well, we always joked about.
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This is going to be one big party.
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Yeah, normally and projects, you know, after a successful launch
13:58
of something, you know, as a program director or SRO one of
14:04
your duties is them to buy the round.
14:06
Selena celebrate. So I can tell you.
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I owe a lot to drink. I'll be bankrupt.
14:16
I'll need a team to bailed. My financial situation out.
14:19
I owe that many drinks to that, many people.
14:21
So you've told us about the way you approach the projects and
14:24
I'd like to pin you down to find out how you are able to get them
14:28
off the ground so quickly because a month start to finish
14:31
is pretty amazing. So with a little bit of
14:35
hindsight, and I know you're still in there.
14:36
Thick of things. But what would you say worked in
14:39
your favor? What were the things that the
14:41
success factors and helping you to get them off the ground.
14:45
First of all, most was the senior sponsorship right up to
14:49
our permanent? Secretary Jim Hera and the
14:52
chancellor himself. They were crystal clear.
14:55
This was the number one priority in no way was this competing for
15:00
time or attention from other things?
15:03
Secondly, somebody who's much better at maths and I am worked
15:08
out that the cumulative hours. We all worked.
15:11
Actually, it was an equivalent of something like a 12-week
15:14
project because just the evenings weekends extra
15:19
overtime, the we were running red hot every single one of us
15:25
on that scheme. And you can't sustain that that
15:29
is reserved for crisis only and should be reserved for crisis.
15:32
Only. The other thing is we used
15:36
agile. To its absolute best effect.
15:39
And that was quite new, was it? We've used agile as an approach
15:43
in hmrc and and indeed my other programs from previous roles
15:48
that I've done used agile a lot. I do assert though that very
15:54
often and I include some of my previous programs.
15:57
We don't use our job properly, though.
15:59
How do you mean agile when done? Well, is even more.
16:06
UND than waterfall all too often agile is seen as enormously
16:12
flexible and it is, but it's within controls.
16:15
So, for example, we launched a minimum viable product.
16:21
So on the 20th of April, when the fellow scheme went live and
16:26
then 13th May when the self employment scheme went live.
16:30
They were the the minimum viable products that we could put out
16:34
to the public. Behind the scenes.
16:37
There was still quite a lot build to do.
16:39
For example, our internal users, to be able to take manual
16:43
claims, or for some of the post claim compliance to be done.
16:49
So if it wasn't essential scope for day one, it was on a
16:53
backlog. Ready to be developed on Day, 2,
16:55
3 4, Etc. That's good agile.
16:59
Good agile. Also, we didn't skimp on
17:02
quality, the customer absolute came first and We even had time
17:07
in our schedule to do highly limited private betas with
17:11
customers so that we could always get their feedback and it
17:17
absolutely had to control every step of the way.
17:20
Every decision was recorded. And as I said before every
17:24
decision came back to the project group to make so that if
17:29
a decision was being made by the digital teams that had an impact
17:33
on say the customer service team.
17:36
Is that decision was well known and discussed, but the proximity
17:40
from decision to development was minimal.
17:43
So sometimes I'd be in a Chancellor meeting.
17:47
I'd get a decision from the chancellor and almost assumes
17:51
that decision had been made. I've sent the message to someone
17:55
who's developing the code. And so our proximity was really,
18:00
really close and that's great agile, and the new person is
18:04
well with such seeing you. Support was decision-making,
18:09
made easy for you was I kind of a clear line in decision-making.
18:14
Could you make them quite fast? It was always a matter of
18:18
judgment when to escalate a decision to the chancellor or to
18:23
our executive committee rather than make it in program and that
18:28
that judgment fell to me to make.
18:31
Hopefully, I've got the balance right, what I would say though.
18:36
It is unusual in the Civil Service, particularly for
18:40
delivery and project people to be in the room with the
18:44
chancellor. Normally you would have the
18:46
policy development do that, and then the, with a degree of sort
18:53
of viability discussion, put in the room, but it's quite late
18:58
down the line when people like me are engaged to say, right,
19:03
how do we deliver this? Then what we do?
19:06
Had here was the delivery right in the room and delivery
19:12
considerations. Therefore were an influence on
19:16
policy design. I'm not going to say it always
19:20
shaped it because ultimately the policy must do what the
19:24
chancellor intended it to do. But the chancellor was able to
19:29
hear first hand either, the risked time scale or the
19:34
complexities. There were some things that we
19:37
were just have to say, we can't do that.
19:39
That's certainly shaped the Chancellor's thinking and
19:41
decision-making. This is partly because delivery
19:44
was the priority for that policy.
19:46
So that the delivery are you giving money to the people who
19:49
needed it as fast as they could. That, that was really what this
19:53
game was all about and that you needed to be in the room.
19:56
Absolutely. So, normally government policy
20:00
that delivery timeline is sufficiently.
20:04
Far ahead to allow this a bit more.
20:06
Cascade approach of policy work and then delivery get hold of
20:10
it. And then it's but actually that
20:13
creates problems because inevitably by the time you go to
20:17
deliver it, there are things that there are complexities in
20:21
there that need navigating that creates later today.
20:25
We couldn't afford for that to happen.
20:27
So it made it faster and made it far more efficient.
20:31
And I think you know, I can't speak of him, but I think the
20:34
chancellor appreciated having that advice.
20:36
On hand, were there, any other success factors that you want to
20:39
mention? I know for example that the it
20:42
systems in place already and the hmrc service for for customers
20:49
was already working very well. And that must have been some of
20:52
the work you're involved with previous to these projects, but
20:56
that must have contributed to the success to have that already
20:58
in place. We've got a really, really good
21:02
technical team. And as I say, Mark, Denny's,
21:04
come in, and With a few colleagues.
21:08
Really shaken up the system for a long time.
21:10
We've had an IT strategy to create a new platform of far
21:16
more agile platform that we can develop microservices into and
21:23
eventually also swap out some of our Legacy systems and head of
21:27
Duty, we did to take the very deliberate design decision early
21:33
to reuse existing technology not Got to go and buy and try
21:38
untested. We also took the decision not to
21:42
integrate more than we had to into any of our heads of Duty
21:46
system because it's the integration that takes the time
21:52
but also it's the calling off different Services all ads load
21:58
to the system and and the volumes.
22:01
We were getting at one point on self-employment.
22:04
I think on day two. We were getting so many
22:08
thousands and thousands of hits every minute.
22:12
It was actually more than Google get as a platform.
22:16
This platform needed to be an absolute Beast.
22:18
We started calling it a Ferrari. I think we've just upgraded it
22:21
to me a beast now, because the volumes it had to cope with, but
22:26
our technical teams and our Architects were excellent.
22:29
At really thinking through ways to minimize load, on the system.
22:34
So that all the The power was pointing to coping with the
22:39
volume. Did it fall over at all.
22:42
Now, it had hadn't at also day two, at that really piqued mind.
22:48
We were a little bit worried. We had a about a scary half an
22:52
hour where steam was starting to come out of the engine, but they
22:59
got control of it really, really quickly.
23:01
We used front-end tools, which allow people to queue for the
23:06
And let them in an order. So we deployed that and that
23:09
brought it under control. But, no, we've had, we've had a
23:14
few external issues. I think an external service went
23:19
down which had some minor impact on us, but no, their system
23:23
coped. Brilliantly everyone in our
23:26
technical department is odor, huge amounts of congratulations,
23:31
but didn't you receive some praise from Tim berners-lee?
23:35
Yes. I think we Reduce.
23:36
Yes, it's been incredible. Actually, although all the
23:40
praise is slightly tinted with an element of shocked and
23:43
surprised and there's been some brilliant comments about well, I
23:47
never thought I'd be thanking the taxman and things like that.
23:50
So but we love it and everybody in hmrc is immensely, proud of
23:56
everything that has been achieved.
23:57
Well, I mean, I sit you're right and I think it's boosted the
24:00
reputation of hmrc massively and we want to continue that at.
24:04
So we were Launching just before all of this happened something
24:10
called a health of a tax system. So what does a healthy tax
24:15
system looks like and it's one that's fair transparent and that
24:22
the public trust and we know that the way we conduct
24:27
ourselves with our customers is an important part of that trust
24:31
in a tax system. So and it's really fortunate.
24:36
That timing because now we do need to still be collecting tax.
24:42
And there are many people out there who may default on their
24:46
tax payments. Just because of the economic
24:48
circumstances are in. It's really important that we
24:52
treat our customers with compassion on things like that.
24:56
And and I think so the great reputation we've earned with
25:02
proud of but we know we need to work.
25:06
To maintain it. Have you measured the success of
25:10
the covid-19 projects you've been working on, so we've got
25:15
lots of the metrics you'd expect so usage.
25:19
How much money is gone out the door?
25:21
And we'll do a lot of analysis particularly on tdrs later down
25:26
the line when we can see, you know, how many businesses of
25:30
sort of retained employees. And that's that's linked to the
25:35
employment. Entre tension bonus that the
25:37
Chancellor's announced what I would say though, my personal
25:40
measure success has been the customer feedback.
25:44
We've had some heartbreaking. Tales.
25:48
There was one gentleman that called from his sick bed in
25:52
hospital. He was suffering with covid was
25:56
unable to work and the self-employment Grant was a real
26:00
lifeline and one of our advisors because he can access Computer
26:07
took his claim over the phone and just when I heard that
26:11
story, it brought tears, to my eyes.
26:13
It's just things like that, make it worth it.
26:16
And that's the success for me. Well, if you don't from the
26:19
whole experience has anything positive come from this or
26:23
anything that surprised you lots is come from, there's lots and
26:27
lots of and some of it's not surprising, some of it's
26:31
actually what we've probably known for years, but need to
26:33
just now get on with things like Like getting delivery advice
26:38
upfront things like working more collaboratively.
26:42
We are undertaking Lessons Learned in hmrc.
26:45
We always do after any project but I think this will be a bit
26:50
of a Tipping Point for us to set our projects up slightly
26:53
differently. How do you mean?
26:56
So a to work agile properly as I described earlier, but be it's
27:03
the way we set up the teams. It's The the role of a project
27:08
leader and project, managers is about the control, the pace and
27:12
the coordination, but it's the experts should do the delivery.
27:17
Sometimes the way we set up our programs means there's a lot of
27:21
people standing between decision-maker and deliverer and
27:27
it can slow the process down. So I think we need leaner more
27:32
streamlined program structures one.
27:36
Ones that are genuinely collaborative and ones that
27:39
cross cut the organizational structure.
27:42
There are some enduring lessons that will be your hope is that
27:47
they will be subsumed within kind of normal work in practice
27:52
in the future. Absolutely.
27:54
And indeed our lessons. Learn our intern, feeding the
27:58
civil service reform agenda that cabinet office and indeed the
28:04
Prime Minister himself is leading.
28:06
What have been the hardest things you've had to contend
28:08
with professionally? And personally, the hardest
28:12
thing has been keeping you resilience up, i-i'm mentioned
28:19
to you. There's this old adjective not
28:22
hearing the pilots cream. And and so therefore I think at
28:28
the hardest points, it everyone else around me understandably
28:33
was, you know, had their And of losing their nerve or getting a
28:39
sort of the Jitters of just how enormous this was, and how risky
28:45
it all was. And of course, as the leader of
28:50
this, both of your teams, but you across the organization,
28:54
you'll see, even your seniors. You're the one that has to stay
28:58
Resolute and show complete confidence, even if inside your
29:03
knees are shaking a little bit. And that, that was, that's been
29:08
the biggest challenge for out that because you need to look
29:11
after yourself in it. And that's in a way working from
29:15
home. At the time, was I think what
29:18
really saved my resilience because I had my family around
29:21
me, every given moment of the day and if I just needed a
29:25
breather a couple of minutes to catch my breath on something,
29:29
you know, you could go and sort of give you kids a cuddle or
29:33
find the cat. It brings you back down to the
29:37
ground. Yes, absolutely.
29:40
And my husband certainly needed his own fair share of resilience
29:44
putting up with me. I'm sure what, what, what did
29:48
you enjoy? The most from The Experience,
29:51
Elder. People it without doubt.
29:55
So when the service is go live, we actually for the first two,
30:00
we put them live a couple of hours early because you start to
30:03
just see a little bit of traffic come through even though, The
30:06
publish time was 8 a.m. And it's and we're using chat
30:13
bars to sort of communicate all the time.
30:16
And so I was up at 5:30. The sun's Rising as the services
30:21
are launching and there are just a few of us that were got
30:25
particularly close all on chat and it was like, you know, no
30:30
feeling quite like it their sense of togetherness, but
30:33
excitement and fear and It was just incredible.
30:39
I wanted to ask you more. Generally, if you think the
30:42
experience of the past few months will give project
30:45
managers and the project profession more of the
30:48
recognition. It deserves within large
30:51
organizations. I hope so.
30:54
I really you know, and that's why I'm grateful for the
30:57
opportunity to speak with you. I'm really, really Keen to
31:01
promote the fact that it was project management disciplines
31:05
that were Real part of this success and it was project
31:08
management advice, right? At the point of conceiving the
31:12
policies that was part of the success.
31:16
That isn't to distract when hugely talented policy teams and
31:20
all the people who did The graft, but project management,
31:24
coordinates it and and is the thing up, that turns the
31:29
ingredients of success into success, but do you think the
31:34
Civil Service? Has a way to go to Value
31:39
delivery more and I think that Tipping Point has now come in
31:43
the private sector delivery is everything because until it's
31:47
delivered. It's not making money or serving
31:49
the customer or serving the purpose.
31:52
We do need to have more of that in civil service and that's
31:55
definitely something being recognized as part of the civil
31:58
service reform. Finally.
32:00
I'd like to ask you what you're working on right now.
32:04
If you can tell us about the go live.
32:06
That you're doing today and also the winding down on the furlough
32:11
scheme, which will be in October.
32:13
So just what do you think the next couple of months will hold
32:16
for you? So as you say the eat out to
32:20
help out scheme is now live. I've used it myself plenty times
32:25
this week, but businesses will need to claim back the money and
32:31
it's important that we give them opportunity to do that quickly
32:35
because of cash. Constraints.
32:37
So, the first Claims can be made tomorrow.
32:42
So today is the final testing checking and retesting of the
32:47
technology of the claim service. And we've got a few private beta
32:51
customers using it as we speak, that will run to the end of
32:55
August. But as you say, we've also got
32:58
self-employment, second grant for that is available as of two
33:03
weeks time, and then we've got the wind down.
33:06
Town of both, the self employment scheme and the job
33:10
retention scheme. That's going to keep us very
33:12
busy until the end of this calendar year at least.
33:15
Well, I just want to say thank you Joanna.
33:18
It's been brilliant. Talking to you.
33:20
Thank you. Wish you good luck and some time
33:23
off at the end of the year. Yes.
33:25
Thank you. Thanks again to Joanna for
33:29
joining us and to you for listening to this final episode
33:32
of opm's Crisis talk series. Look out for the upcoming new
33:36
podcast, season and project innovation.
33:38
And restarting, the economy to come in.
33:40
The following weeks. This podcast has been brought to
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you by APM the chartered body for the project profession.
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For more information a p.m. Visit, a p.m.
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