Latest / The Lauren Castle Show / How to Bring Herbalism Into Your Functional Medicine Practice

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How to Bring Herbalism Into Your Functional Medicine Practice · The Lauren Castle Show

• speaker-0: And at the same time I had my own health challenges. So I feel like that's something that brings a lot of us to the other side, so to speak. Like I went to the conventional doctors, I did the conventional things, including procedures and even surgeries and drugs and therapies and all these kind of different things. And what I found was that it actually caused a lot more harm in the end than good and a lot more trauma. It was not sustainable. And basically, even long-term treatments with pharmaceuticals and the surgery that I mentioned did not help me. I was kind of at a loss. And I felt like, well, then I have to look out of the box and I have to see what other practitioners are out there. And I went to anything I could find, like from acupuncture and herbalism to energy work and cranio sacral and like everything across the board, I probably tried it if it was in my area. And in New York there's a lot. So so I was able to experiment myself. speaker-1: Welcome to the Lauren Castle Show, a podcast for people on a path to well-being, body, mind, heart, and soul. Join us for conversations at the intersection of pharmacy, functional medicine, and psychedelics. My hope is that each episode will leave you feeling inspired to step into your power, speak your truth, and live your most authentic life. Let's begin. Welcome back to another episode of the Loring Castle Show. I'm here again with another incredible guest for you. Dr. Marina Booksoff is a functional pharmacist, mind-body health coach, and clinical herbalist. She's also the creator of the Build Your Holistic Herbal Practice Course. She is a regional leader for the Functional Medicine Pharmacist Alliance, an herbal teacher at the International Holistic Health Alliance, and the host of the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. Marina guides practitioners to rediscover their passion for medicine by expanding their mind and clinical skills to include natural holistic alternatives and herbal medicine from which conventional medical practice originated. Marina believes in honoring plants as food and medicine for sustainable and sovereign health. She lives with her husband, two adorable kiddos, and two mischievous kitties in New York City. Welcome, Marina. speaker-0: Thank you so much. Glad to be here. speaker-1: So I am so excited to have you because we have been connected since 2020, way back when I was at the very beginning of my own entrepreneurial journey of starting FMPHA. And of course, the Facebook group for functional medicine pharmacists has been around since 2017. FMPHA itself was created as a blog and a website at the same time, but I never actually started my LLC or my business. until 2020. And so my first step, my first ever training program that I invested in was Marie Forlio's B school. And so I joined B school. It was like the scariest $2,000 I had ever spent because I was like, I have no idea if this is gonna work. Like this feels like a lot of money to spend on a business that I don't even actually have up and running. But I have to start somewhere. And I just really, really love Marie Forlio. She's been like a huge inspiration for me. So I joined and little did I know there were other pharmacists in the program. And Marina was one of them. So we connected and found each other on Facebook. And that was just the start of a journey that I had no idea where it would take either of us. speaker-0: Yeah, I remember when we connected and started networking and then I joined the group and I started my own group about holistic herbalism. So it's like adjacent to functional medicine and we can talk about that. And it really felt great to watch each other grow and build our businesses. speaker-1: Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your origin story, your background. How did you decide to become a pharmacist? I really like to start there because I think it tells a lot about the person of how we got into this profession. And I always learn something new about my guests. And like these these are all people who I've known for years, and yet I still find new things that we've never uncovered in our friendship before. speaker-0: Yeah, I feel the same way about my guests on my show. And I learned so much about people's motivations and I get super inspired by them. And I've had a few of the guests that you've already had on my show as well. So ⁓ it's awesome to hear different perspectives and angles, even along the same vein and similar topics. So as far as for me, I guess back in high school was when I started thinking. seriously about what what I should do for college and what I should do as far as like majoring or choosing where to apply. And ⁓ my dad came home one day and said, maybe you should consider pharmacy. So I did. I looked it up. There were only two colleges that were nearby that had Pharm D as a program. And one of them was zero through six. The other one was, you know, the split ⁓ pre farm and then farm D. So I ⁓ considered my options and I was like, well, I might as well try it. And then if I don't like it, I could always change to something else. But if I don't try it, then I won't be able to get the six year program and all these things. And so I felt like I was good in chemistry and like the physical sciences and it was interesting to me to kind of look at the journey of pharmacies. So I was like, why not? So I applied. And then I got into both schools and I chose the one with the nicer campus and the better scholarship. ⁓ so it was ⁓ really nice actually. I really enjoyed the studies and I I really loved studying medicine and drugs and pharmacology and or even organic chemistry. Like everything was great. It was my jam. But then after I graduated, I kind of felt like I didn't know what I wanna do after school. Like the school part was easy, you know, I was able to get A's and I I knew what to do and everything like that. But when it came down to choosing my own path after, I realized I don't really know. I don't know if I want to do residency or fellowship or Go into industry or do retail, like I'm not really called to any one of those things. So so that's when I started questioning myself. speaker-1: I love that. Yeah, it's funny that you say you were like the all-A student. I was a B's and C's get farm D's, which it's so ironic because I was straight A all the way up through high school and everything else. And so I often had moments where I was questioning my journey in pharmacy school of like, what did I get myself into? But the reason I highlight these things is because when I talk to pharmacists about getting into functional medicine. There's usually some little nuggets of things like in your pharmacy school journey that become very relevant in choosing your path into functional medicine. And like really just recognizing your strengths and like the things that let you up and the things that you're able to be really confident and skilled at, like double down on all of those things because there's going to be ways you can repurpose them in your work in functional medicine. Like it's all part of the journey. So I love that. ⁓ I also went to a zero-six school. Like I was in, knew where I wanted to go, but I can't say that our campus was so great in the middle of Ada, Ohio, in a tiny little village in the cornfields. Hindsight is 2020. If I could go back, I would absolutely be going to the most exotic, beautiful, tropical pharmacy school on the planet. So if you're a student and you're watching this and you haven't committed to a pharmacy school, live your life. so tell us a little bit more then of, you know, after graduating, how did you end up finding herbalism and eventually functional medicine? Because it sounds like as we've described, they're sort of two sides of one coin, ⁓ but they each have their unique kind of perspectives. speaker-0: Right. Yeah. So I was lucky, I'll say in my school I got to participate in a study abroad semester, which was very new. They just opened up the pharmacy students for this because our curriculum, as you know, is crazy. And so they were never able to do this before my year. And so they opened it up when I was a second year. And I was like, all right, yeah, I'm gonna go. And then it was the best semester of my life, obviously. And I just grew so much in that short period of time and got to travel to Europe and see all these amazing places. And now that I'm sort of settled down with kids, I feel like I haven't traveled in forever. So I just look back on that time very fondly. ⁓ but long story short, after I graduated, I did end up taking a local, ⁓ retail a community retail job because I figured I can, you know, set my own hours sort of. ⁓ like I picked up I think like thirty hours a week and I was like in the meantime I could then figure out what I want to do next. It wasn't supposed to be like a forever job. It was just like a, you know, getting started job. And so I ⁓ I decided to just try it out. And the way I got that job was also like a series of synchronicities because I I didn't plan to work there. ⁓ but it actually was a pharmacy that carried a lot of herbs. And this was really nice for me because it reminded me of my own culture, which I come from a Slavic background and we use herbalism as part of pharmacy. So our pharmacopeia is everything. It's it's the herbal medicines and it's the pharmaceuticals, and we have that every you know, all of that available in the pharmacy. And when I was traveling actually to those European places, I also noticed that their pharmacies were a lot more holistic in that way that they had these options and the things that were controlled or behind the counter or prescriptions. ⁓ they were s you know very different than the way things are regulated and scheduled here. So it kind of just opened my eyes up to the fact that different countries have different regulations and what they consider medicine. And I really liked that aspect that we sold these herbs and these tinctures and all of these things. And then we also had the prescription department. And at the same time I had my own health challenges. So I feel like that's something that brings a lot of us to the other side, so to speak. Like I went to the conventional doctors. I did the conventional things, including procedures and even surgeries and drugs and therapies and all these kind of different things. And what I found was that it actually caused a lot more harm in the end than good and a lot more trauma. And it was not sustainable. And basically even long term treatments with pharmaceuticals and the surgery that I mentioned did not help me. So I was kind of at a loss and I felt like, well then I have to look out of the box and I have to see what other practitioners are out there. And I went to anything I could find, like from acupuncture and herbalism to energy work and craniosacral and like everything across the board, I probably tried it if it was in my area. And in New York there's a lot. So so I was able to experiment myself and ultimately I also decided that I would want to train in some of these things. So I actually reached out to my professor in college because she taught an alternative medicine class. And then there was another student who was the leader of our alternative medicine club. So I kind of reached out to those resources, which again, it's nice that my pharmacy school had that exposure for me. And then from there I sort of started networking and seeing and following the breadcrumbs I would say that people would tell me about. And then I ended up enrolling in a bunch of different programs and certifications. ranging from health coaching to functional medicine to functional nutrition. And then eventually I found herbalism as sort of like this bow, you know, to tie everything together. And what I found was that this was the other side of the coin for pharmacy for me, where they were the same profession up until a certain point where industrialization happened and then the marketing happened and then there wasn't any more like individualization at that point for different prescriptions and everything was just mass-produced and the doses were regulated and there was less and less of a need for individualized compounding. And we can see that right now playing out as well because the compounding art is kind of being pushed out ⁓ and regulated more and more and more. So yeah, so for me, this was the complete kind of cherry on top and I found that this gave me the tools for my own health first and foremost because I didn't need a middleman, like another practitioner to let me know, hey, try this plant and drink a tea from here. You know, I I didn't really need that. All I needed to do was get the plant, whether I grow it, find it in the garden or buy it online somewhere or in a store, as long as I know how to work with that plant, I don't need like per se somebody to prescribe it to me. I could read up on it. I could research it and I could test it out on myself. So that gave me a lot of my power back as a person that was going from practitioner to practitioner. And I decided to just go all in and do a full-on herbal program after I ⁓ interned at a local shop for a while. So that's how I became a clinical herbalist. speaker-1: It's amazing. So talk a little bit more about what it means to be a clinical herbalist because this is a question that I think comes up a lot for pharmacists who are trying to figure out exactly what they want to get into on this sort of natural medicine journey. And, you know, with functional medicine, I like to describe it as being an integrative modality, right? You're going to use a lot of different techniques and tools that Could be services you offer, but they could also be things that you refer out for, right? Like acupuncture was a great example of that. I know in my own journey of like healing my hormones, acupuncture is something that I eventually tried. I was terrified because I hate needles. I cannot stand getting any kind of injections. And so the idea of like putting needles all over my body was so scary, but it really wasn't that bad. I've I've like breathed through it and it didn't. really hurt. There was definitely some points that I was like, ow, that I can feel. But it it was totally one of the tools that made like a huge difference in regulating my cycles. So shout out for all the acupuncturists out there. Veronica that we just had on the show also is a pharmacist who got certified to do five NP, which is a type of ear acupuncture. And so like that's a specific program in her state of Texas that she can do as a pharmacist. So again, like there's all these different tools and techniques, but what makes herbalism unique? What type of training programs are out there? and how do you sort of include it in your functional medicine practice? But then also, like, how is it different? How would you kind of start to get into the nuance of really describing herbalism? Cause I have to be honest, even as a pharmacist myself, like, yes. We learn about herbs in pharmacy school, but unless you take a specific herbal elective, you probably just get the supplement lecture in your OTC class that's like, you can use sawpawmetto for someone's, you know, prostate, or you can use some lavender for someone's anxiety, like very high, high level and not actually getting into true herbalism. so Say more. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. I think diving into the world of verbalism is kind of like leaving the muggle world behind and sort of going into hogwarts a little bit. And we actually joked with my school that they originally wanted to call themselves mugworts, because there's a ton of mugwort growing here in New York City, which is the where they were based. ⁓ but The interesting thing is for a lot of this terminology with integrative and holistic and alternative and complementary and all of these models that we talk about, I think there is a lot of overlap and nuance. And we actually had a discussion on my show about what those nuances might be. So we could definitely link to that if people are interested. But essentially herbalism is a modality. That's how I would describe it. It could be practiced in a functional or holistic way. It could also be practiced in a conventional model. And that's actually what I see with pharmacy, the industry is literally like the origins of it was taking a plant, looking at the viable compounds, the phytochemicals, screening all of these things, and then trying to extract it and synthesize it and multiply it and put it in the right dosage form and in the right dose and, you know, prescribe it. For a protocol, let's say. And so I see the pharmaceutical industry as literally evolving from herbalism. It's just packaged up and industrialized into these neat little packages that you can then market and sell very easily, and you can patent it and all of these things. And you can regulate it to a point and you can control it to a point because you're isolating very specific compounds, and then you're very clear on what those are. But when we practice herbalism in a holistic model, we actually want to look at whole plants and the synergy and the wisdom of the plant itself. And we also want to recognize that this is not a substance that is meant for our health. It's more of a relationship where we exist. With all of these other kingdoms. There's five kingdoms here on this planet of living organisms. And so we share space and we share resources and we do reciprocate with one another. So we have that symbiotic relationship with plants where we exhale carbon dioxide, they exhale oxygen, and then we can use them. And then all the other processes that we can also look to, all the other kingdoms, like we all support each other. At least that's how the ecological system actually works. And so when I speak about herbalism, I'm talking about an ecological approach, which is is more holistic because it doesn't just say, here's a person, they're ill, let's extract all from all of these other kingdoms just so we can get this one pinnacle on top of this pyramid. Well instead we're trying to find out, like in functional medicine, well, what are the root causes of Why is this person ill in the first place? Is there a systemic cause for this? And there's a lot of levels to that question that we have to explore that could be bioindividual to that person. And also it could be that they're living in a system or ecology that is kind of trending, right? With all of these, like, let's say, anxiety. Right now it's like, Point me to a person that is not anxious, right? So we we kind of live in this society where it's go, go, go, it's productivity, it's ⁓ extractive resources mentality, it's push yourself very hard until you burn out. Like it's just our lifestyle and way of life, and it's a cultural phenomenon at the end of the day. ⁓ so just like James Mascoll says, right? It's like, how do we build a culture around health? And so I think that is what herbalism is asking too. It's asking how can we learn from these other kingdoms and these herbal is ⁓ this ⁓ plann kingdom, for example, that's what we primarily work with. Of course, we also look to minerals and we look to fungi and we recognize the bacteria that are inside of us and in our organ systems and all around us that are contributing to this ecological health or disease picture. And so we try to kind of look at how we can balance that relationship. I think that's the best way I can describe it. And we know from all the research, even though there's contradicting ⁓ theories and some research is questionable or controversial, but overall it's like what's the pattern? And so from an herbal perspective, it's we need to have a better relationship with plants where there's a lot more plants around us, right? We're not just living in the urban jungle, kind of like how I am, but even if you are, how can you look at the greenery? Can you go to a park? Can you grow something indoor? Can you grow something in a small balcony or whatever space you have so you have more of that symbiosis happening with plants? Can you ingest more whole plants? Can you go out to a hike so you can breathe in some of those Essential oils that are in the forest, right? With the forest bathing research that came out of Japan. ⁓ can we not try to extract each vitamin and mineral and what we think are beneficial phytochemicals and compounds, and instead trust that there's history and evidence of different cultures using similar plants in similar ways, and just look at the parts of the plant used, how it was ingested, and like follow those historical breadcrumbs instead of having to isolate like the one ingredient that we think is beneficial and discard everything else as waste, essentially. So it's really about being resourceful, I feel like, and being ⁓ conscious about using your resources. So we always advocate for going out into your local neighborhood, looking for your local flora and learning from local herbalists and sourcing things locally as much as possible so that you're not trying to just, you know, order something off Amazon that can be delivered across the globe to you that you feel like is the miracle pill or solution because that's just replicating the pharmaceutical model. speaker-1: Yeah. Beautifully said. It's it is so complex and yet so much more simple at the same time. And I think for me, you know, in my journey, when I look back, my mom was always super into herbs and supplements and all of the things. And, you know, she was a stay-at-home mom. She was not like medically trained or clinically trained or anything like that. But She just knew how to garden. Like my grandpa growing up had a huge garden and like kind of a mini farm, I guess, because they had baby goats and chickens and you know, we'd go out deer hunting and all of these things. And I remember like collecting bugs and I had a bug collection that I'd get from, you know, all the different places on on their land. And so like we We were around that growing up and like visiting my family. And same thing on my dad's side. My dad's dad also had a massive farm garden with giant sunflowers in it. And so, like, I remember these things growing up. And yet while I was fascinated by it, I also was like, you, I don't want to get dirty. Like that was just me as a kid. I was the kid that didn't want to get dirty. ⁓ and so I think as I grew up, you know, yes. You know, my mom had a garden and I would go try to help and do things with it. But she would have lots of herbs specifically. ⁓ and I just remember like, you know, basil and oregano and thyme, like a lot of culinary herbs that also do have medicinal properties as well. But then she would have more like traditional medicinal herbs, things like echinacea was growing. ⁓ I feel like there was others too. She'd have valerian like capsules and tinctures in our medicine cabinet. So it's like I was exposed to all of these things early on. And I think you know, just kind of had a natural interest in it. But it really wasn't until I got into functional medicine that I then started to come back to it in a sense, because now it was like, ⁓ I can see, you know, from a functional perspective where there is sort of that blend of like, Yes, you know, utilize herbs, but use these clinically proven, patented, scientifically studied compounds from the herbs. And I always give the example of like ⁓ you know, oregano being something that was really powerful for fighting candida, which was like my husband's main issue that we were dealing with. And sure, we could try to like eat the oregano, you know, on all of our food, which now that I've been to Greece, I I am Such a fan of putting oregano on everything that I eat now. But is that gonna be enough to like actually fight off an active candida infection, like in someone's gut if they have that overgrowth? ⁓ maybe, but maybe not, right? So, like at that point in time when we were using, you know, I forget exactly how to pronounce the active ingredient. I think it's like carve lol or something along those lines. You know, it's like, okay, you're getting a more potent. targeted form of this. But okay, now let's go back to like eating the oregano, you know? So I feel like I've been kind of in my own journey with this. And it really wasn't until I got into psychedelics as medicine that I started to actually understand what we mean when we say forming a relationship with the plants. so I'd love to talk a little bit more about that because I think, you know, again, as pharmacists and maybe medical practitioners or even patients who who were never exposed to the idea of food as medicine or herbs or anything like that, right? That you were kind of just raised in this modern world that we live in. the idea of relationship with plants might seem a little foreign or a little unscientific. but I'd love to explore that more because I know for me, when I started to sort of bring that that idea to the forefront and think about, you know, not just how am I using this plant, but like what is this plant also receiving back from me? And like how does that relationship unfold? yeah, it's It's hard to describe or put it into words. It's something you kind of have to feel and experience almost to really understand it. But the other plants that really helped me with this was Passion Flower. So we had a whole summer of Passion Flower where I think I was texting you like every day, like Marina, how do I make passion flower tea? I found them growing in the wild in Ohio of all places. this like beautiful exotic tropical looking plant that I first came into contact in Costa Rica and now it's growing in my backyard. Like what do I do? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I remember you sending me that, and that brought me a smile. And I have a few things to share. Actually, you mentioned traditional medicinals, and that is the name of a famous herbal company by Rosemary and Gladstar. So shout out to TM. And ⁓ there's the saying, Let food be thy medicine that we coined from Hippocrates. And we also look to him to take our Hippocratic oath as medical professionals and saying that we will First, do no harm. That is our commitment, our dedication, our promise to our patients and how we're going to serve the public. And so I think this is an important conversation to have where we really take a look at our public health policies, at our health expenditures, at the way our systems are set up, and then look at how much money we're spending and resources we're spending and what are the guidelines telling us to do at, you know, A, B, C points, and then look at the results and then compare it to let's say other countries of the globe and see what their per capita capitas expenditures are, and then see what are we doing differently from those countries. And also we can look to the blue zone diets around the world. And we could really start to examine and question as any good scientist should. to see, is there a better way, right? Is what we're doing actually outdated at this point? Maybe it's not the best way. And that is how we overturned a lot of the flawed thinking of the past. That's how we discovered that there is such a thing as bacteria and these microorganisms that are carriers for disease and vectors and things like that. And we were able to clean up our hygiene and we're able to make all these great policies. And also is there something that we're missing? And so, like what I can see from my perspective and my vantage point as an herbalist and a pharmacist is that there are different tools, like you were alluding to for different things. And so when we set a very good, strong, healthy foundation for what we're referring to as relationships, let's say, or these layers and this way of living in harmony with the other organisms on this planet and not just Having a one-sided relationship where we just feel like it's okay for us to just take, take, take and extract because we're the most important species here. we're the most evolved and et cetera. And we just because we can, we should, right? ⁓ we actually look at it from a different lens and we think, okay, how can we enhance our quality of life? How can we look to harmonize all of these relationships and How can we benefit from each other? Because when we take care and and become stewards for these other organisms, then we also receive their care and support back. So when we try to just extract right without permission and just build all of these things and these castles in the sky, so to speak, then what are we doing with the maintenance and the sustainability question? Like what why? ⁓ do we think that these resources are not finite? Because eventually that can come back to harm us when these systems are not sustainable, these resources are depleted. we're looking at the diversity of the species on this planet declining, we're looking at the climate changing, and a lot of our activities as humans, including that in the medical industry, is fueling some of these harmful practices. So I think we need to take a step back and understand, hey, how are these indigenous cultures from back in the day, civilizations ago, ages ago, how did they set up their cultures and their environments and even how they practice medicine? What can we learn from them instead of just throwing out the baby with the bathwater, right? Like, hey, they're outdated, they're they're done. How can we actually take what's been good across every generation and then keep those practices that are beneficial and are cost effective and are renewable? And then learn from even the existing cultures that have kept to some of their old way of life that are still present around different places in the globe, and learn how can we see, and it's not just related to medicine, right? It's like, how do we they live their life? What do they do? What are their habits? And I think that's kind of what I've been learning as an herbalist and as a practitioner and as a person trying to heal myself, my own body, is what you do on a daily basis, what you're surrounded by, what you're exposed to, like basically penetrates you on some level. And then you you accept that as truth and as reality. And then what is actually true, what is actually good for you may not be what is mirrored to you. So when you change your environment, when you create a healthier environment, your body can't help but change and become healthier. So when we build that strong foundation, which I believe herbalism can help us with, and we create amazing public health policies. And again, we we learn how to be sustainable and renewable with all of these things, then we can change the landscape and we we can really reduce the amount of diseases that can take root in that healthy culture and environment. Now, are we gonna get rid of all of our advancements and scientific ⁓ discoveries and even drugs and and surgeries and all of that stuff? Absolutely not. Those are amazing life-saving, acute interventions that I have benefited from and they are saving lives every single day. But it's like, how are we gonna set up the foundation? How are we gonna integrate after that heroic medicine is used? That's where the holistic approach and herbalism can be so, so helpful. And I think we're really missing this in the modern medical systems. speaker-1: Yeah, I I agree. It's it feels like it's become very polarized in some ways. And yet that is the beauty of functional medicine to me, is that it's sort of this bridge between, you know, our modern allopathic systems and these ancient systems that have been around forever. And that, like you said, there's no reason to throw it all out. There is still a lot of cultural evidence that we have for these different practices. And more and more the science is starting to show why and how that works. Blue zones being a great example. And again, something that we experienced in Costa Rica. ⁓ it's just such a beautiful place. And when you see it in person and you experience that lifestyle, you experience getting to eat fruit growing right from the trees around you and, you know, like milling your own masa to make tortillas and catching fish right out of the ocean and using these plants as medicine to heal not just, you know, physical ailments that might be affecting you, but even, you know, emotionally and mentally and starting to see again how health and our body is not just one dimensional, right? It's not just about what is physically happening. And sure, again, Scientifically, we're getting better at being able to explain this with words and on a microscopic level of what is happening. But even still, there is, you know, a sort of area, and I think that's why psychedelics are so fascinating to me, is because it's it's more than just that chemical imbalance theory. It's more than just saying, ⁓ we're gonna, you know, change and adjust serotonin levels or, you know, agonize this particular receptor site. Like, yes, we can explain all of that. But as a human being experiencing it, like the felt sense of wow, like where I was having all of this anxiety and difficulty sleeping, and now I take this passion flower. You know, whether it's in a tea or a tincture or even in an like an essence, which is like a whole, you know, other type of formulation that is working on an energetic level, you just start to see how our plants are so much more powerful than we give them credit for. I think we just we take it for granted. And that was what was so different about our ancestors and, you know, people who came before us is that there was a much greater sense of reverence, it seems, you know, and an appreciation and gratitude for food, for plants, because, you know, there was more scarcity. Absolutely, right? Like there was a a greater dependence on. Having to live in sync with the earth because we didn't have the industrialization that we have today, that we can just hydropon hydroponically grow, you know, food in a warehouse in artificial lights. Which again, it's like that's beautiful too, because now we have these sustainable ways of creating more food and eliminating food deserts and all of this. But it's It's all cyclical and there's a time and place for all of it, but we really do have to think about it, you know, on a local level. And I think too, that's just something that herbalism really taught me. I I recently did an herbalism course that Marina recommended for me. It was called The Energetics of Psilocybin, and it was taught by Sam Perry and Beth Weinstein. And it was my first like formal. Herbalism class with like a real herbalist. And it was not as simple as going on Amazon or going on Full Script and just placing an order for these herbs. Like some of these herbs that we were working with don't grow in Ohio. And you have to know someone who knows someone who can get access to them to actually obtain them for your use. And then to be able to actually use them medicinally required some level of processing preparation, right? And so again, that is where the science comes back into the picture. And we recognize that there are, you know, chemical things that we can do in order to better utilize these compounds that are in these plants. But I was like, wow, this is fascinating. And It's really exciting and like it definitely like awakened something in me that I felt like very connected back to, you know, like you said, in the beginning, like when pharmacists were herbalists and like this is what it meant to work with medicine and to know how to process these plants and to work with them and not to over harvest them and You know, you had to wait for growing cycles and seasons and everything, or travel to go find them. Like it was just, it was a really beautiful experience. and the other thing that I really learned in that too was just how involved our senses are. So that is something that we've really lost in the process of the medical sort of industrialization that everything comes in a pill. Whereas before, Medicine had a ⁓ flavor, it had a taste, it had a smell, it had a sensation that you could feel not just on your tongue or in your mouth or on your skin, but like internally, immediately, that you could feel what was happening. And I just that also blew my mind because I'm like, it's so funny because now there's like this perception out there that herbs and things like. Don't work as well as a pharmaceutical. And I was like, we've just forgotten how to listen and how to tune in and actually have that interoception, is the word for it, where you can feel what's happening in your own body. We've gotten so disconnected from that. That, yes, in order for herbs to work, you have to know how to perceive what is happening in your body, or else. It's pretty easy to miss it. It's pretty easy to just take it, move on your day and forget if you're not actually pausing to connect with it and pay attention. So I'm super grateful for that experience myself. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you so much for naming that. And I have a a lot of things to say on the topic. I would say, first of all, around the sensory experience and the energetics that we've been describing, those are definitely missing from the vocabulary, not only of the medical model and the current system that we're in, but Even just kids growing up, like you were saying, like you didn't want to play in the dirt because it seemed dirty, right? And I feel like because of this not only industrialization but mass migration into cities, we have gotten away from being in the dirt and being around all of these microorganisms and plants and creatures. And again, this is like the sterilization or wanting to be overly focused on hygiene. is a problem in and of itself and the overdependence and over-prescribing of antibiotics, which we're now realizing that there has to be stewardship around and the the resistance that is happening a lot quicker than we anticipated because the way that they ⁓ develop resistance is across generations like like this, right? Like a snap of my fingers, they're already mutating to several generations where we're just discovering drugs and able to maybe make a better version of the drug ⁓ over maybe decades or, you know, definitely not as quickly as the bacteria are able to outsmart and and form new resistance patterns. And then they share it across their species and then across other strains. So it's really remarkable, like when we do look at it ecologically, that no matter how much we try to kind of outsmart these primitive quote unquote things around us and try to get them under our control. There's so many feedback mechanisms at place and in our own bodies as well. When we try to medicate it, when we try to suppress or reduce the symptoms, our body has ways to continue processing these things and letting us know and letting it come to the surface because the symptoms are there for a purpose of alerting you to something going on. And when we're just medicating ourselves and we are in this like hyper-stimulated environment all the time, you know, in cities with lights 24-7, with EMF signals, with all the fast food or whatever type of food-like substances that are in our environment ⁓ that we're giving to kids and are in school lunches and are in hospitals being served to sick people. It's very Very easy to get lost in all of that and stop paying attention to your body and to your own natural senses and become less sensitive because that's a protection mechanism. If you were to react to every single thing, your body would be very, very anxious and panicked and give you a lot to to think about and to maybe medicate even more. So, you know. I think the whole journey with herbalism and with psychedelics is about changing your perspective, expanding your consciousness, and trying to even slow down and and be in your parasympathetic mode, which is the function of our nervous system to be able to rest and digest and to be able to receive and heal as well. And when we're just so distracted with the conscious and con unconscious things that is grabbing for our attention all day long. It's very difficult to even feel in your body and to perceive, like you said, like what is the effect of these things that I'm inputting and then what am I outputting? And so it just becomes very, very confusing to work with a body like that. And this is why we have so many more diagnoses now because we think we're understanding the biomechanics of it all. And also it's because we're just exposing ourselves to more and more complex situation that the body now doesn't know how to deal with because it wasn't around and we didn't co evolve with some of these things that are on twenty four seven nowadays. So I'm not trying to over glamorize the past and say like we need to go backwards. I think that's also a common backlash that I tend to see ⁓ in the space. What I'm saying is that we do need to look at our life, you know, with a clear head and understand what is it that we want to keep there? What is it that actually brings life into it and what is simple and what is healthy and focus on those things. as much as possible and then like crowd out some of the other things as much as possible. And I understand we're all in different stages and capacities and not everybody can do a 180, like including myself. I'm still living in New York City, which you can argue is like the least nature based ⁓ you know, land out there. But but I think it's the again raising your awareness is the first step and psychedelic plants along with other plants and many other tools like mindfulness and meditation and spiritual teachings can help us to access these different parts of ourselves, our psyche, our brains, and allow us to understand that maybe we can change something, maybe we can shift something that will make a big difference. And maybe it doesn't have to be so complex and maybe we take baby steps. But this is what the plans can help us uncover is just to be humble, to be reverent, and to be a little bit more intentional. I think that's that's what they're asking of us. And when we get into a relationship, as you had said and as I write about on my blog, it's really about you devoting your attention and your time and your energy. to learn from these plants and to work with them, ingest them, you know, experiment with them, make medicine with them, that's what you're giving back. It's your own attention, your own energy, and you committing to that practice. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that is a really beautiful way to sum up our conversation. ⁓ well, I'm so grateful for you taking the time to come here and share all of your wisdom and knowledge and experience. ⁓ tell us a little bit more about where people can find you. Obviously. If you're a pharmacist and you are interested in functional medicine, as we mentioned in the beginning, Marina is one of our regional coaches inside of the functional medicine pharmacist boot camp. So she leads some of our coaching calls. We've had some really beautiful calls in our summer cohort. ⁓ getting into all of this nuance, you know, we had a really in-depth discussion about Ashwagandha one week and all the evidence for or against, or what populations can use it and just how to actually tease apart the literature and just how quickly it's all evolving and changing. so if you're into that kind of thing, then definitely stay tuned ⁓ to learn more about the boot camp. But, you know, as Marina mentioned, she also has her own training programs that are purely based in herbalism. So if you are listening to this and you're like, forget the functional medicine side of things, like I I am ready. To go all in on herbalism and I want to explore this more. Again, whether you're a patient, a practitioner, a pharmacist, she has a plethora of resources available on her blog and her website. She's a beautiful writer. Like, truly, I love reading Marina's newsletters. They are like poetry and they're just so well written, especially in a time when it's like things are just sound bites and clips online. Like, really well crafted, thought out and put together and like very deep. So if you're into that, like you'll really enjoy Marina's teachings. So tell us where we can find you and and how people could work with you. speaker-0: Thank you so much, Lauren. It's been a blast. I love talking about this. As you know, I can go off the deep end any day. So if you do like this, check out my podcast, check out my website. I have a couple of free resources that you might find fun, including what are the best references that I like to use as a pharmacist when I look up herbal information and also how to remake your own medicine cabinet so that if you do have a little first aid kit or Anything else full of pharmaceuticals in your house and you want some natural alternatives, I got you. So check those out. And I have more and more things coming out. And if you are interested in some of my communities, ⁓ definitely check out those links. I have coaching, I have mentorship, and I have education and courses and webinars. So depending on ⁓ what your budget is and also like what your level of commitment is. If you want to become a master herbalist, a clinical herbalist, or if you're just wanting to do some self-study, you can see kind of what's out there. And then to return back to your earlier question, because it does come up a lot around the regulations around what it means to be a clinical herbalist, for example, it's very gray. We're in the gray area right now. So what that means is in this country where we are in United States, it is not regulated as a medical profession. So it's on a similar level as any other unlicensed degree that you might get, ⁓ like a health coach, let's say. So you can go into a local program, which is what I always recommend if you have any local practitioners or programs in your area. And that you can go and get hands-on training or even an herb shop like how I started. I really recommend that. ⁓ if you are a pharmacist and you want to be around like-minded individuals, I highly recommend checking out my work because we kind of just vibe and we build on top of your existing foundation, which I have a very good idea of. And I try to kind of fill in some of those blanks and create a very nice picture for you for how to you can use both your pharmacy like hats and tools and then also ⁓ herbalism into that. And then different programs will have a different number of hours for towards like different curriculum and and parts of herbalism that you should know and you should be aware of. So there are different levels that you can kind of see other schools offering. But again, it's not regulated. So it really just depends on what you want to do with that degree. It doesn't really count. You know, it's kind of like that ⁓ show whose line is it anyway. The points are made up and nothing matters. You know, it's kind of like that. Like you want to choose a program that suits your needs. So it's going to be different for everyone. Like what do you need to learn? And then if you want to kind of distinguish yourself and get like a title at the end of your name, there is something called a registered herbalist. And you can get certified by the American Herbalist Guild so you can check out their requirements and what they recommend. speaker-1: Amazing. Well, we will put all the links in the show notes for sure. So check that out. ⁓ but is there any last bit of advice that you would give our listeners if you were in their shoes today? speaker-0: yeah. So ⁓ first thing is ⁓ take a breath like I just did. Just take a breath. Allow yourself to just come back to the breath. And I I did this for myself as a pharmacist whenever I would notice that I would get burnt out or emotional or like reactive after a long day of work. I just reminded myself I have to breathe. I have to be conscious and intentional about my breathing throughout the day. And I think just that alone will be a nice shift. You can even put a little alarm clock on your phone or pair it with like going to the bathroom or washing your hands or lunch, you know, like things that you already do throughout your day and you just make that a check-in. Like, how am I breathing? Am I breathing into the belly? You know, am I doing some shallow breathing? So I think that's number one. ⁓ second thing I would say is open your mind if you can, right? Like I know it's hard to break old. patterns or programming or things you've learned in school, maybe, or from your parents or from society. But, you know, from anything that we shared today or anything else you might be exposed to that you may not understand yet, I invite you to just kind of pause, you know, and just consider, okay, like, can this possibly be in the realm of possibilities, you know, instead of like right away shutting it down or judging it. So I would say that's number two. And number three is go outside. Like literally just go outside whenever I was in a tough season. I just got myself back just by going outside, going to my local park, making that a non negotiable. And if you can't do it every day, you know, at least several times a week, make it a point to go outside and just be outside. speaker-1: it. Absolutely beautiful. Well thank you again, Marina, so much for joining me on this episode of the Lorencastle Show. And we will see you all on the next episode. speaker-0: Take care. Thank you. speaker-1: That's it for this episode of the Loren Castle Show. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I hope you'll join us for the next one where you'll hear more stories from me and some of my amazing guests. Be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast no matter where you watch or listen, and check out our website, droringcastle.com and fmpha.org. We'll see you next time.