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S3 E5: Did the Sith Code Get It Right? · Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast

0:00
It's most things Kenobi. We always have the high ground.
0:05
Anakin. Hi everyone.
0:19
Welcome to another episode of Most Things Kenobi, a podcast
0:23
about Obi Wan Kenobi and all things Star Wars.
0:25
I'm your host, Leanne. And I'm your host, Lauren.
0:30
And before we get to this episode, we're going to read one
0:33
of our Apple reviews because we said we'd mix it up and start
0:37
doing things at the beginning of the episode.
0:38
And, and this is one of those things.
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Lauren has chosen 1. I have one from Mary and Chaz on
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Apple. That's pretty much the only
0:51
place people can leave us reviews.
0:52
You can leave US stars on Spotify, but you can't leave a
0:55
review. And we have almost 100.
0:57
I know we're doing pretty good on I know.
1:00
We have a high rating on both. Yes, we, yeah, we do.
1:03
I'm very proud of us and thank you for every, you know,
1:05
everybody who's ever left a star or a review.
1:08
We really appreciate it. We do.
1:11
But this one is titled Fun in all capital letters.
1:14
Yay. With an exclamation point and
1:19
they said found your podcast through James Arnold Taylor.
1:22
What a fun conversation. Friendly, family friendly and
1:26
positive. Can't wait to listen to more.
1:28
Family friendly? I don't what episode was that?
1:35
Probably the James episode. It's like the only two episodes
1:39
we've done where we don't swear. Well, listen, what was her name?
1:43
He or she? What was their name?
1:45
Mary and Chaz. Mary and Chaz, we are so sorry
1:50
and we apologize for every episode you probably listened to
1:53
after that that was not family friendly.
1:56
You can always listen to our YouTube.
1:58
I bleep out the swears but it's not the same.
2:04
Yeah, we're going to talk about passion in this episode.
2:07
So just chalk it up to some passion, right?
2:10
We feel a certain way about Star Wars and we are not.
2:15
We're not going to hide it. We don't hold back.
2:17
Just like that story that I told everyone at our our watch party
2:22
that James saw something that we wrote about Obi Wan being hot
2:27
and I had to just look him in the eyes and admit that we think
2:34
Obi Wan is hot and we're not going to hide it.
2:36
Not even from James Arnold Taylor and his wife.
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You know what though, He and his wife are such good friends to us
2:45
and the show that they love us for it.
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Yes, they don't hold it against us.
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No, and we thank them for that as well.
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Yeah, bless their souls, letting us be our our weird wild selves.
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That's just we have to be how we are.
3:01
That's it. There's no other person to be
3:03
besides ourselves. Thank you for Mary and Chaz.
3:07
Yes, thank you. And if you guys, if anyone out
3:09
there wants to leave an Apple review, preferably a +1, please
3:13
and thank you, we will read it on a future episode.
3:18
All right, Leanne. Yes, Yes, Lauren.
3:23
What? What are we doing today?
3:25
We're discussing the Sith code. However, we're coming at this
3:30
from a sort of devil's advocate point of view.
3:34
We're going to go through it as we've done in the past, but
3:37
we're going to try and identify if the Sith actually had a point
3:44
and it was just missed. So the follow up episode to
3:51
today's episode. So our next episode will be us
3:54
looking at the Jedi code line by line and seeing where they
3:58
missed the boat. Yes, I I love this approach.
4:04
It's really, it's kind of letting us tap into our dark
4:07
side a little bit. And yeah, we don't do that a lot
4:10
on this this show. No, it's going to feel weird,
4:14
but I think if we can come at this and the Jedi, don't forget
4:18
we are pro Jedi, we are pro Force, all of it.
4:23
So this is out of our comfort zone.
4:25
Yeah, we're going to have to come next episode to the Jedi
4:30
Code and like question it. So it's it's going to be an
4:33
exercise for us both and hopefully a fun listen for all
4:38
of you out there. Yeah, I'm excited.
4:41
Well, shall we, shall we approach this Sith Code with a
4:48
different point of view? It's all about point of view
4:50
with Star Wars, isn't it? It is, and the thing that I
4:53
still chuckle about is one of our very first episodes was
4:57
talking about the Sith Code, or what it is to be a good Sith.
4:59
And now I cannot read the Sith code without your voice in my
5:04
head on the first line. Oh.
5:06
No. Because peace is a lie, bitch.
5:12
Peace. Peace is a lie, bitch.
5:14
And so we'll start there for any of you Ogs out there who have
5:20
been listening since the beginning, that should be a a
5:23
trip back in time for you. Yeah, seriously.
5:26
Well, let me introduce the first line then.
5:28
Peace is a lie. There is only passion.
5:32
How do we feel about this? On my darker days, I might
5:37
agree. Honestly, this is a very
5:41
limiting. This is a limiting statement,
5:44
but I too think there's some truth in it.
5:50
This is where that difficulty comes in, right?
5:53
Yeah, it's against our nature. It is so if we look at this from
5:58
a Sith point, a Sith, A Sith's point of view, sorry, if you
6:07
look at this from a Sith's point of view, they could technically
6:14
wait. I have to be like pro Sith,
6:16
don't I? I can't argue this.
6:19
I have to be pro. OK, let me try this again.
6:23
If I look at this from a Sith's point of view, I could see where
6:27
they're coming from with like pieces of lie.
6:29
Because honestly, the Jedi, what they're trying to do is not
6:34
working. So peace is a lie, bitch, is
6:38
what they would come at them with, right?
6:41
Because honestly, when did they ever succeed?
6:46
This is really hard to do. It's really hard and I hate to
6:49
be this negative because you know, nihilism is super popular
6:54
right now and it's very seductive because it's easy to
6:59
be a nihilist. But that being said, from our
7:05
planet Earth perspective, not just Star Wars, humans aren't
7:09
super good at being peaceful. In fact this time period we live
7:15
in, which is not a peaceful time period is the most.
7:19
It's like the most peaceful time period in history, which is
7:22
pretty messed up. That's crazy.
7:25
Yeah, Globally, there's not a lot of peace out there.
7:30
I think individual peace is more possible. 100% I was going to
7:36
say that, but that is not what the Sith are here for.
7:39
They think that's a lie because they don't live it.
7:42
Yeah. And really, I have been accused
7:48
of being, quote, too passionate. I'm too emotional.
7:53
I'm too all these limiting things that are false.
7:58
If anyone's ever told you that you're too passionate, it's
8:02
because they can't handle your passion.
8:05
It's not your fault. It's how they deal with it.
8:08
Yeah. That's a you problem, not a my
8:10
problem. It really is.
8:12
Yeah. So looking at this, there is
8:16
only passion. I can.
8:18
I can see where they're coming from because the Sith are so
8:23
emotional, even though they claim to have control.
8:27
We'll get to that line. They claim to have control, but
8:30
they really, it's a it's messy. And so you can't be at peace if
8:37
you're raging constantly. I'm thinking of you, Grievous.
8:43
Well, and maybe they they are poking a hole in the idea that
8:48
it's against your nature. So the Jedi are all about
8:53
control and finding peace and like working towards peace.
8:58
And is that going against your nature?
9:01
Some would say for the betterment it's against your
9:04
nature, maybe to learn a higher way of living.
9:07
But maybe to the Sith, that's a bastardization of life where you
9:12
step away from your natural self.
9:14
You know, at our if we're not socialized at a very early age,
9:19
we'll very likely become. It kind of reminds me of like
9:23
how dogs resource guard, you know, it's like this is mine and
9:26
if you take it, I'll bite you kind of thing.
9:29
Yeah. And maybe the Sith lean into
9:33
that because that's the way we are brought into the world.
9:37
I don't know. That's a very this is painfully
9:39
negative for us. Look at who we're talking about.
9:45
I would like to compliment passion because I think I don't
9:49
consider passion a bad thing. How you use it and how it comes
9:53
across, yeah. But passion in and of itself, it
9:57
drives people. It motivates people.
10:00
You know, if you have a passion project or your career is your
10:03
passion or volunteering, helping people is a passion.
10:06
That's not bad. In fact, you can find peace in
10:11
passion, which is the ironic part.
10:14
But yeah. You could passion is not bad.
10:19
It's I think the association that gets it gets passion gets
10:25
labeled as an emotional overload, you know, like you're
10:32
reckless or and in the Sith case, they might be Anakin was
10:37
reckless. He had a lot of passion.
10:39
I do not think that Obi Wan was any less passionate than any
10:44
other Jedi. He just controlled that shit,
10:47
which is ironic because we'll get to it, you know, later in
10:51
the in the code. But I don't think passion is
10:53
necessarily bad. When it doesn't say rage.
10:59
No, it doesn't. It doesn't say anything.
11:01
In the whole, honestly, in the whole code, there's no mention
11:06
of anger or rage. It's just the the opposite of
11:12
passivity is passion. Yeah.
11:15
And I don't. I like you.
11:17
I don't think that's a bad thing, especially under most
11:20
circumstances. I'm sure there are.
11:22
There are when passion becomes obsession.
11:25
Yes. Then that could maybe tip into a
11:28
dangerous area. But yeah, I agree with you.
11:31
I don't think passion inherently is a bad thing or a negative
11:34
thing. I also think it's very
11:37
interesting that this is the first line of this entire code,
11:41
because this code is a step by step how a Sith actually gains
11:48
power and victory, right? This is the method that they
11:51
must follow to get power, which is, yeah, the opposite of the
11:57
Jedi code, right? It's they don't.
12:00
It's power of self versus overwhelming power over others
12:05
and civilizations and things. And that that was their goal.
12:07
At least not all of the Sith. But Palpatine, you know.
12:11
Yeah, there's a bit of hypocrisy in here too, right?
12:14
Because right, power and and freedom, which comes up a little
12:18
later. Well, if there could only be
12:20
two. Well.
12:22
That this is the whole. Thing, you know, like that there
12:26
is no power and freedom when there's only two of you allowed.
12:30
That's that's a cat and mouse game that has, you know, no
12:35
ending but one. Yeah.
12:38
OK, Sith, whatever. See, we can't do this without
12:43
arguing against it as well, but. I guess.
12:47
It's funny, like I said, this is an exercise.
12:50
Yeah, and like, name. Name me a happy Sith who is
12:53
satisfied there aren't any. It's very true, it's very true.
12:57
But I can name many Jedi that were passionate that didn't get
13:01
in the way of. Their peace.
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So this is very fun and interesting.
13:06
I'm enjoying it. Me too, second line.
13:10
Yes, through passion I gained strength again.
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Strength isn't inherently a negative thing.
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This is This is a strange one because it says I gain.
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In fact, the next the the three lines in succession here it says
13:31
I gain, I gain, I gain. Yeah, you're right.
13:34
Which? Is very selfish.
13:36
Who wants to feel helpless? Who wants to share?
13:39
Not the Sith. They only are sharing with one
13:44
other. And even then, just to kind of
13:48
see if you'll turn against him in the future.
13:50
To a test. Yeah, yeah, I could never be a
13:56
Sith. I'm not a game player.
13:58
This stuff would just drive me fucking crazy.
14:00
But I could be like a sole practitioner like Ventress.
14:09
Well, I was. I was actually considering
14:10
Ventress during this. Yeah.
14:13
She's an interesting case. How do you feel about Ventress
14:16
when you think of of all of this?
14:19
I feel like she deeply believed all of this to begin with
14:23
because the Jedi had cast her out in such a like brutal way.
14:27
But by the time Dooku betrayed her I think she was left
14:33
somewhere in the middle where she had to make up her own
14:35
beliefs. So she kind of piece mealed
14:37
together the things that made sense to her but didn't, like
14:42
stick hard and fast to the Sith code after, you know, going out
14:46
on her own and being a bounty hunter.
14:48
So sure, it's like Ahsoka in the Jedi code, you know?
14:50
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't know what do you?
14:53
Think Ventress is interesting because once we got Tales of the
14:57
Underworld or tales of whatever she was, what was her segment, I
15:01
think. It was Underworld.
15:02
Yeah, OK, it I felt a little bit like she had found some sort of
15:09
peace. Yeah, but once she had let go of
15:14
the passion. Yeah, so if you work backwards
15:19
in this code, it does an ironic thing of bringing you some kind
15:23
of balance. But that's not what we're here
15:24
to do. I just find passion.
15:28
Strength could be an abuse of passion.
15:32
Sure. Which I see in Vader, I see in
15:37
Riva. Not that she's a true Sith, I'm
15:41
just thinking of perhaps maybe like an abuse of the force.
15:47
Not labeled Sith but not a Jedi, but using the force in this
15:53
manner. She wanted strength, she wanted
15:56
power, she wanted victory over Anakin or Vader.
16:01
Just using her as an example. The more passionate she was, the
16:04
more she could intimidate people and get her way and overpower
16:10
her coworkers, if you will, the other sisters and brothers or
16:14
you know. Yeah.
16:15
It's a depleting system though, even though it's built to get
16:21
you more out of people and out of yourself, I think it's
16:25
depleting. Yeah, it's it feels like a
16:29
process that calls the herd a little bit where you can start
16:34
off passionate and then you you get strength and then the power
16:40
comes. But I think that the thing
16:43
that's really different from the Jedi, the Jedi believe in
16:45
working with the Force and like letting the Force flow through
16:50
them. And the Sith are the opposite.
16:52
They believe in manipulating the Force and twisting the Force
16:56
against its will to their power and their will and their
17:01
benefit. And maybe over time, that's
17:07
untenable. And the only one who's ever
17:10
really been able to do it for a lifetime was Palpatine.
17:14
Yeah, I mean, if you if you think of like the old, old the
17:20
cyst, like the Ravens, OK, Yeah, they had a little more balance
17:24
and they weren't so over. He was really powerful, but he
17:31
wasn't like a loose cannon, you know, You think a grievous I
17:37
keep bringing. Him up, yeah, he is such a, he
17:40
is a loose cannon. And honestly, Vader Vader's
17:44
barely not a loose cannon. Yeah.
17:46
And then actually, maybe we should just talk about Dooku,
17:49
because he would probably be the best example other than
17:54
Palpatine, at least in the new era, not the Old Republic.
17:58
But he, he was passionate, but he quelled it.
18:04
He harnessed his strength. He was a very good duelist.
18:08
We've seen that. He trained.
18:10
What's his name with the missing horn?
18:14
Savage. Savage, he trained, he trained
18:17
Ventress too, but he was very strong, you could argue
18:22
extremely strong. He could, you know, harness
18:26
Force lightning and all the other things that the Jedi don't
18:30
practice. And if you really Rev yourself
18:34
up, yeah, I could see. I could see becoming stronger
18:39
through it. He's so.
18:40
Different than Maul truly. And I guess this is more Maul
18:47
from Clone Wars cause Maul in Phantom Menace is not like a
18:51
raging he doesn't scream Kenobi, you know, like out in the
18:55
desert. He's really kind of subdued in
18:59
Phantom Menace he's when the character speaks, he has a very
19:03
mild soft voice. He's not screaming.
19:06
Sam brings the passion and and you can.
19:11
Like the thing that sticks in my mind is in Clone Wars season 7
19:16
where Maul goes into the reactor room after he breaks out of the
19:20
Jedi vaults that the Mandalorians put him in.
19:23
Or he doesn't break out. Ahsoka lets him out and he goes
19:26
into the reactor room and just crushes the room with his brain
19:30
basically. Like he reaches out and just
19:33
collapses the reactors all by himself with no weapons at all.
19:37
And you don't see Dooku do anything like that.
19:42
Very controlled, yeah. And it makes me wonder then,
19:49
like what the definition of passion was, because the
19:52
strength, I feel like is kind of like what Dooku gives Savage,
19:56
right? He's training him and he's
19:58
giving him skills. But that real ultimate power
20:03
over the Force, Savage never really achieved that the way
20:06
that Maul did in particular. And.
20:11
Just because you have strength does not mean that you have the
20:14
rest of the fortitude. You need to actually start
20:18
working with the force and and manipulating the force, which is
20:22
I think is what's connected to the next line that through
20:27
strength I gained power. Yeah, let's talk about it.
20:31
I feel like the power is the control of the Force, not
20:34
necessarily just riches and status.
20:38
And like, you know, City is trying to build this fucking
20:40
insane empire that I don't know how he kept a handle on it
20:44
'cause we've seen how governments work and it's not
20:49
super efficient. So an empire that's
20:54
intergalactic. I don't know how he keeps track
20:57
of it all, but maybe he's got, you know, an app on his datapad.
21:02
That's definitely it. Yeah, that's it.
21:07
But yeah, that's how kind of I interpret the power.
21:10
Is that how you see the power? Do you see it more as like a
21:13
tangible, tactile thing? I interpret the power as their
21:20
physical strength because every time I watch someone who uses
21:25
the Force in a dark manner, particularly a skilled, trained
21:29
and dubbed Sith, they do scare me in the fact that they're
21:35
going to win this fight. They're going to win because
21:38
they come at it with so much vigor.
21:41
Unless they're fighting Obi Wan. Well, I there's a caveat here
21:45
and I'll get to it. He's the caveat, but their
21:53
interpretation of this is it starts with the pieces of lie
21:58
because something has happened to each one of these Sith that
22:01
made them fucking pissed, right? They got wronged, they got hurt,
22:06
something was taken from them. They want revenge.
22:08
They all these very passionate, you know, labeled emotions that
22:13
they're not channeling properly. They're channeling into strength
22:17
in which in that that is then interpreted through their
22:20
physical manifestations of the Force when they're dueling or
22:23
battling or plotting and all this stuff.
22:26
And they just have to overwhelm their opponent with like all
22:32
these angry tricks like, like Force light.
22:36
Like remember when Rey got really, really pissed with Kylo
22:41
Ren and that's when her Force lightning came out?
22:44
I picture the strength and power like that.
22:49
She tripped over a level that she wasn't supposed to and she
22:52
entered the realm of emotion that she quote was never
22:56
supposed to and boom, force lightning.
22:59
And I think it's damaging. We literally see it damage
23:05
Palpatine from Mace right in in Revenge of the Sith.
23:08
It's damaging and bad and it drains and that's why I think
23:11
this whole thing is a fucking joke at the end of the day.
23:16
But I can see the point. The angrier they are, the more
23:21
passionate they become, the more revenge they seek.
23:24
Oh, it probably builds and builds in them.
23:26
And then they have unlimited power, you know, like, it
23:31
probably feels really good. So I totally get passion,
23:35
strength, power, boom, I can overtake anybody.
23:38
How many times do we see Anakin duel freaking Dooku one-on-one
23:43
and it was evenly matched and even kind of tipped in one way
23:46
or another. Now OK caveat Dooku is never
23:50
going to kill Anakin because that was never the plan.
23:53
But Maul is fucking sloppy. He gets sloppy and that's that's
23:58
the that's the fucking caveat with this shit.
24:01
They get so wrapped up in their head.
24:03
Whereas the Jedi Obi Wan is cool, calm, collected, controls
24:06
himself and ultimately is the victor.
24:10
Yeah. So while they may have more
24:12
power and physical strength and all these other force tricks
24:16
that they can use that the Jedi have locked themselves away
24:18
from, the Jedi still come out on top.
24:21
Because this is a lie, bitch. This is a lie, bitch.
24:27
All of it. It's all a lie.
24:30
I know it feels unsustainable. I think there's why there's only
24:37
two. Yeah, it's like you're a deeply
24:39
destructive process and so you're betting against yourself
24:44
if there's only two. And like, really?
24:48
There's practitioners, but they're not all made equal.
24:51
Nope. You know, and if if you're
24:53
looking at the top 2 Sith during Clone Wars, it's Sidious and
25:00
Dooku, and then they have minions who don't even really
25:04
come close. Mm hmm.
25:06
Then if you start on this path, it is it's.
25:12
It's like a lie to get you invested so that the two at the
25:18
top can use. You.
25:20
Yeah, I guess that's the next line.
25:23
Through power, I gained victory. Again, like what a seductive
25:28
thought to offer that to somebody.
25:30
They offered it to Anakin. Palpatine did.
25:33
Think of what you can do if you had my if you had my way, my
25:37
power, if you came with me, If you, if you.
25:39
You know all these seductive things, you.
25:41
Learn things that Jedi would never even think about offering
25:45
to you. Yeah, and if you're really
25:49
suffering, who wouldn't feel drawn to that?
25:52
That's the thing. That's the thing.
25:56
Because how angry was Anakin at the end of the Kenobi series
26:02
throwing everything he had at Obi Wan, literally and
26:06
figuratively burying Obi Wan because he was pissed and he
26:11
wanted revenge and that's all he could think of.
26:13
And really it was the episode before, the one we just watched
26:17
in our watch party, where Obi Wan outsmarts Vader because he's
26:22
not blinded by this, you know, need that Vader is blinded by
26:28
and he's able to like make his way through a problem like he
26:33
did and outsmart Anakin because Anakin was he's like this.
26:39
He's this this code, which is sad, but wouldn't you want that?
26:47
And like we've said this in the past, that it feels like the
26:50
Sith pray on people who are suffering and offer them kind of
26:54
false hopes and bring them into the fold in order to manipulate
26:58
them and use them up until they're not useful anymore.
27:03
But if you're a person who is suffering and someone offers you
27:09
that you can feel strong again, that you can feel powerful
27:12
again, that you won't be like, you'll have agency in your own
27:17
life. Whereas the Jedi teach you the
27:19
opposite. They teach you to let go of
27:21
everything when you're in pain. Being told to let go of
27:26
everything doesn't sound comforting, even though it is
27:29
probably the ultimate way to get over the pain.
27:34
The Sith, instead, they bring that pain to the surface and
27:37
hold it there all the time and use it to fuel themselves.
27:41
And I guess I understand why that would be appealing.
27:46
If you're really suffering and and you know that that pain's
27:49
going to be with you pretty much forever, you might as well use
27:51
it to your benefit. But really you're using it to
27:55
Sidious as benefit. Let's Right, right, right,
27:57
right. I mean, there's all there's all
27:58
like footnotes that we're not saying here that any good Star
28:02
Wars fan would would understand. Yes, yeah.
28:04
I think they think that peace and control, I don't know about
28:10
control. We'll say we'll go back to the
28:12
peace thing, because therein lies the issue or the strength
28:15
for them. Peace is a weakness.
28:19
And what do you want to be when you feel weak?
28:21
You want to be stronger. And exactly like you said, if
28:26
you look at it from Anakin's point of view and why he was
28:30
seduced into this and why he became such a good Sith, is
28:35
because he hurt. He hurt a lot.
28:37
He was hurt by Ahsoka, Obi Wan, the Jedi, the Republic, all this
28:44
stuff. And I, he wanted other people to
28:47
feel the hurt that he felt. He wanted Obi Wan to feel.
28:52
He said it in the Kenobi series. I want you to feel what I felt.
28:58
And this is his all. This is like his first, possibly
29:02
only time that he's had control to exhibit this over Obi Wan.
29:07
When he drags him through the glass, the burning glass and
29:09
stuff. I get, I kind of get it.
29:12
I get it. Now I'm playing, I'm playing
29:14
devil's advocate here, trying really hard to not sound like a
29:19
terrible person. But when you hurt and you don't
29:22
know how to work through it and you don't have the tools, this
29:26
is a very inviting code. Yeah.
29:32
And it would work for someone in that position, in that hurting
29:36
position where they feel weak and all they want to do is win.
29:40
Yeah, totally. It's.
29:42
Actually kind of sad. I know it is sad.
29:45
I mean the whole the whole idea of becoming a Sith and most
29:51
people are suffering terribly or are are like Maul was basically
29:56
sold into it against his will. His mother chose it for him.
30:02
Yeah, like, almost all of them come from some really painful
30:07
background. Even Dooku has a really sad
30:09
childhood, Right. So, yeah, I totally agree with
30:14
you. I think that there is.
30:16
I can see why. And like Yoda says, it's easier.
30:22
It is. Which of.
30:24
I mean, that sounds so flippant because suffering as these Sith
30:29
have suffered is not that's not easy no matter who you are.
30:34
But yeah, I mean, Anakin's separation from his mother is
30:41
enough to to wound that person into this.
30:46
And and he had so much more than that.
30:48
Like you said, it was Ahsoka and Obi Wan and the the council not
30:52
believing him and just feeling alienated constantly.
30:55
That's plenty to push a person into this.
31:00
And that's not to say that people on the other side didn't
31:04
have a rough childhood, because in real life, you know, earthly
31:09
life, non galactic life, you can have one person from a shit
31:15
family, shit circumstances, you know, whatever that may be to
31:19
that person and one from completely opposite upbringing.
31:24
And the person who came from a shit back background still has a
31:29
choice. I could make something out of it
31:33
and be better or continue whatever I was dealt and keep
31:39
the keep the vadnais going. You know, not everyone who has
31:43
suffered through something in their life chooses to be bad.
31:48
You know, yeah, 100%. And so I really believe that I
31:52
don't think there's a Jedi out there who also didn't have
31:55
something and out that go to our go to our taking children early
31:59
episode from Jedi for more on that.
32:02
But granted, they were taken before possibly anything could
32:06
happen and raised in a closed environment, you know, but you
32:09
can't just grow up and not have scuffles with kids and get made
32:13
fun of. I mean, that's in any class.
32:15
I don't care if they're Jedi or not, you know?
32:17
What I'm saying, yeah, that's just a normal part of
32:20
socializing. I don't mean socializing as in
32:24
like hanging out. I mean like socialization like.
32:27
I think there's a comic right I don't know if it's Canon, where
32:31
Anakin gets picked on by his classmates because they're
32:34
jealous of him and his power and doesn't he go like Obi Wan and
32:38
say like why don't they like me or something?
32:39
That's terrible. It's Canon, yeah.
32:41
And then or well, Palpatine comes in and takes him out of
32:47
the school and I don't know, they go on some like weird ass
32:50
field trip, but yeah. And it is distinctly creating
32:56
even more alienation for Anakin because instead of getting
32:59
closer with the kids that he's contemporaries with, he gets
33:03
preferential treatment from the Chancellor.
33:07
It's just, yeah, it's it's all set up to drive a wedge between
33:12
him and being able to integrate into the life he is trying to
33:18
make for himself. Palpatine made it nearly
33:20
impossible. Granted, like we've said a
33:24
million times, Anakin ultimately had the choice.
33:26
But he did. But I mean, it was stacked
33:29
against him. Yeah.
33:32
I could see where this is very attractive, all of these lines
33:37
in the in the force, but I think the the last line is the most
33:40
ironic. Through victory, my chains are
33:45
broken. The force shall free me, I
33:50
almost said. Shall set me free.
33:52
But that was my brain like putting in.
33:54
Words. Me too.
33:55
My brain thought that's what it was until you read it out.
33:58
Loud to force shall free me. This is hilarious because every
34:04
motherfucking Sith family friendly has been has been
34:10
chained by this code. Yeah.
34:15
When did Vader release his chains?
34:18
When he came to the light and followed his fucking son to the
34:22
light side. Yeah, finally.
34:26
He didn't even use the Force against Palpatine.
34:29
Palpatine with the with the lightning.
34:31
And you know, he didn't even, he just physically threw him over
34:35
the the the ledge. He didn't do anything fancy.
34:40
You're right, he didn't even use the force.
34:43
I don't, I don't know how to, I don't know how to defend this.
34:46
It's so fucking convoluted. I'm not going to.
34:49
I'm not going to talk about it. How do you kill your master?
34:54
How is that chains are broken? All of this is ridiculous.
34:59
I can't contain myself. I can't be on their side.
35:03
I know I do feel like the even though we're trying to defend
35:06
it, it's really like a step ladder to.
35:08
It is. To failure, it's like the
35:11
following. These steps will ultimately like
35:14
squeeze you so much that you don't even exist anymore.
35:18
And you, you have this fallacy of freedom when really you're
35:20
just enslaved to it now. I really do think that the
35:24
choice of my chains verbiage here is is a very a specific
35:31
analogy to use. Yeah, if you're as.
35:37
It's implying that you have chains that you must be broken
35:41
out of via this code. And if if the argument is that
35:46
the Jedi, you know how. A great example is Anakin
35:49
talking about Tarkin in the Citadel and saying that the Jedi
35:54
don't go far enough sometimes. Yes, right.
35:57
And if you're a Sith, you can go as far as you want, taking
36:01
things to extreme. Very.
36:03
Alluring, yeah, but that doesn't like, if you look at it that
36:07
way, where like morality plays no part in your your choices and
36:13
you can do whatever you want and use whatever methods you want.
36:16
OK, fine, maybe that. But when we're talking about
36:20
real freedom, you're not you. You're either a slave to your
36:25
master, or now you've made yourself so angry and sick to
36:31
achieve your power that you've made yourself sick enough that
36:37
you don't even last that long. You crack under pressure or you
36:40
you get so angry that someone gets the better of you.
36:44
For most Sith you know, like yes there are the elite few.
36:49
Mm hmm. The only one I I think of who
36:51
like maybe really did have freedom was Sidious because he
36:55
literally did whatever the fuck he wanted for generations and
36:59
even brought himself back from the dead.
37:01
Somehow, somehow. Somehow.
37:08
But most of the other examples we think of, they really just
37:14
suffered. Yes.
37:17
Not that the Jedi didn't though. You know Obi Wan suffered
37:21
plenty, so it'll be interesting to look at the the Jedi code
37:27
with that in mind, knowing that plenty of Jedi still suffered
37:31
even though they followed the code.
37:33
Well we purposely did the Sith code first because it's in our
37:36
natural, it's in our natural self to want to go Jedi 1st and
37:40
then Sith. And we were like, no, we need to
37:42
do Sith first and then come with the Jedi after we examine this
37:46
from a certain point of view. And I really do think that this
37:51
whole, the success of all of this has to lie in the
37:56
individual being seduced by this feels wronged or hurt.
38:02
And that is the weakness that the master preys upon to make
38:06
The Apprentice. Yeah, They offer you something
38:12
that you can't. You don't feel like you can
38:14
offer yourself. You, you feel disempowered.
38:18
And this is a way, it's very alluring.
38:22
I I understand it for sure. I I do too.
38:26
It's the kind of thing where you hope that you would never fall
38:30
victim to someone praying on you in your weakest moment.
38:34
You know, because people look for meaning when they're feeling
38:39
this is that's why poetry is important and that's why people
38:44
turn to religion when their world is destroyed because they
38:48
need meaning. So it's kind of like a power
38:51
vacuum where it does also leave you open to the wrong people
38:55
coming in and maybe offering you something that if you were in
38:59
your right mind, you wouldn't accept so.
39:02
Yeah, yeah. The illusion is that you have
39:05
more control this way. Yeah, because.
39:09
In victory, you have the ultimate control.
39:12
You, you've won, whatever that is, whatever you, you, the
39:17
individual are searching for, you will have victory through
39:20
these steps and then you'll be set free.
39:25
But that's that's the irony in this is that none of none, none
39:29
of them are free. Except for perhaps the one at
39:32
the top. Well, and even think of say, say
39:38
your ultimate goal is revenge. Once you have it, then what do
39:44
you do? Work backwards.
39:46
You need more victory, so you need more power.
39:49
You know that's where it never ends.
39:52
It never fucking ends. It's never enough.
39:55
Yeah, we're just staring. At each other right now.
40:00
Like what else is there to say? It's.
40:05
Yeah, it's just never enough. Yeah, perhaps we should take
40:10
that thought into the next episode.
40:14
Yeah, I like it. When is it ever enough?
40:17
Is does anyone reach? Yeah.
40:20
Do the Jedi, is it ever enough for them?
40:24
That's what I want to question next episode.
40:27
Yeah, it's interesting. This was difficult.
40:30
Yeah, this is hard. I think it's easier to pull
40:34
apart something that portrays itself as good, like it.
40:39
I think it will be easier, we'll see, to like, kind of poke holes
40:42
in the Jedi code. It's a lot harder to find the
40:45
good in something that you know is actually pretty bad and
40:49
negative. We also have preconceived
40:51
notions, we have biases because of the individuals that we know
40:54
who use this code, who really exemplify this.
40:59
So it's hard to justify their actions when we know how awful
41:03
they were. If you come at it from a semi
41:07
empathetic point of view, like in the instance of Anakin or
41:13
Ventress who were truly wronged, there were things wrong in their
41:18
childhood or in their upbringing.
41:21
Where natural emotions are is human.
41:25
It's human to feel, or should I say of that species or
41:30
subspecies. Yeah, I just human is like a
41:33
blanket term. Yeah, yeah, like Ventress isn't,
41:37
but she is right. So yeah, all of that being said,
41:42
I can understand why this would be a great thing to go into if
41:47
the if something else isn't working.
41:50
I feel, I feel actually a lot of empathy for all, all of them
41:56
except for Sidious. Yeah, I know.
41:58
Even Dooku, like I understand his disillusionment with the
42:02
Jedi, I understand that completely.
42:04
And I understand Ventress saying that the Jedi are awful 'cause
42:09
she was treated pretty badly. And even Maul was taken by
42:18
Sidious youngling. He didn't really have any choice
42:21
in it. Savage oppress.
42:22
Same thing in a fight to the death and kill his own brother
42:26
just to be forced into this enslaved position.
42:28
I feel compassion. I do.
42:30
Yeah. Sidious, I it's hard.
42:32
I don't know what to feel sorry for.
42:37
Maybe maybe that he'll get his own episode.
42:43
We've never done an episode on Sidious, actually.
42:46
We haven't and I don't really know that much about his his
42:51
back story, so it'd be interesting to do.
42:54
But yes, this is this is challenging and this was
42:57
difficult but interesting. Very.
43:00
Yeah, Looking at it from the other side is I guess we, I
43:04
guess what this boils down to is perhaps you and I really are on
43:09
the light side after all. We can't help it.
43:11
It's just I can't buy into this bullshit.
43:17
This is a lie, bitch. There the end.
43:29
All right, join us back Next time we are going to dissect the
43:33
Jedi code and we're going to try and poke holes in it.
43:36
I don't know how well we'll do since we were not able to really
43:42
be into the Sith code. Maybe we can poke holes in the
43:45
Jedi code, I don't know. But join us back next time and
43:48
we will have a lively chat about that.
43:53
Speaking of Lively chats, our hallways episode, people liked
43:58
it. He did.
44:00
In fact, the comment that I would like to share on this
44:04
episode is about the hallway episode My Mom.
44:09
Loved. It she loves, she thought it was
44:12
hilarious and then the outro with you saying hallways.
44:16
She's she said she listened to it three times.
44:19
Now. This is this is a verbal comment
44:20
I got from her on the phone. She's like, I listen to Lauren
44:24
try and get that out like 3 or 4 times.
44:26
It made me laugh every you can tell she doesn't want to say it,
44:30
but she does. And I'm like, yes, that was,
44:32
that's the fun part. And of course, if you're a
44:36
patron, you can hear the mess that happened that was edited
44:40
out because we do the behind the scenes stuff over on Patreon.
44:43
But yeah. Yeah, it was even more.
44:46
It was more, much more than what was in.
44:50
Well, my mom loved it. She adores you.
44:52
She loves this podcast, even if she doesn't understand 3/4 of it
44:56
what we're talking about. But she loves it.
44:57
So, well, thanks. We love you, Jeeta.
45:01
We love you Mom, and we love all of our listeners and thank you
45:06
so much for joining us here on the Most Things Kenobi podcast.
45:09
If you would like to support the podcast by becoming a patron,
45:12
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45:15
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45:24
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45:32
mostthingskenobi.com. So until next time Myspace win,
45:38
may the force be with you. Always, always.