Latest / Groove with Portia / What Does It Mean to Have a Say in How Your Life Ends?

Transcript

What Does It Mean to Have a Say in How Your Life Ends? · Groove with Portia

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Guru Portia, the podcast that uncovers the hidden
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: treasures within grief. I'm your host, Portia, the producer, and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm inviting you to join me on a transformative journey
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: where we will exchange laughter. Of course, the best medicine
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: of them all. Reflect on cherished memories. Remember that time
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that the little boy grabbed my hand instead of his
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: mother's at the amusement park? Yikes. And of course, discover
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: gratitude while navigating one of life's hardest challenges, loss. So
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: get ready to grew with me, Portia, the producer. Let's
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: dive in. Why, hello, everyone, and welcome back to Guru
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: with Portia. I'm your host, Portia Booker. And as always,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to keep up
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: with all things Guru with Portia. So one of the
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: things that some of you may or may not know
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: is that my mom was not a fan of hospice.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Before she made her transition, one of the things that
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: my mom had said to us was that she wanted
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: things to be as smooth as possible. And I think
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of it was our family and a lot
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: of families are not educated about what the role of
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: hospice is, how hospice works, and how it helps with
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the end-of-life journey. Today, I have the honor of being
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: joined by two individuals to provide not only their own
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: personal journey, but also a way for us to see
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: hospice a little differently. They are both the co-authors of
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: a new book titled Hospice. Dying Well with Hospice, A
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Compassionate Guide to End-of-Life Care. So without further delay, welcome
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: to Guru of Portia, Ms. Paula Wren and Joe Gusley. Paula, Joe,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: how are you today?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for having us, Portia.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's an honor. And I know it's never easy
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: to have these kind of conversations. As I brought up
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, my mom was not a fan of hospice.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Funny story, we actually had the hospice people come to
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: our house. They were going to bring the bed and everything.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: And my mom at the last minute said no. So
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: they had to take everything out of our house. But
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the way I see
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: it is my mom got to transition on her terms.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: She had a fear of the unknown. And even though
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: that fear was very much present, we still were able
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: to enjoy some good laughs before she transitioned. I got
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: to tell her thank you. And just all the beautiful
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: times that we had throughout that crazy time in our life.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: So Paula and Joe, you know, Paul, I'm going to
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: start with you. You've spent years writing about aging and caregiving.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: But when your husband, Joe, entered hospice, you were faced with.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: That was Jim, by the way. Jim.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Jim.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: That's okay.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Jim. When Jim entered hospice, now you're faced
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: with what you're helping other people with on a personal
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: level now. And I'm curious, Paula, for you, what did
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: that experience teach you that your professional knowledge had not
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: prepared you for?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I think it gave me a stronger understanding that hospice
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: is all about being patient-centered and letting the patient set
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: the terms and make the choices. And so that was
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: a big thing. that I saw in action with my
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: husband more so than, uh, anybody else. Um, and honestly,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I felt that the support that they brought and, and
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Jim had the luxury, so to speak of six months
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: of hospice time. So he had a lot of time
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: to adjust and I got to watch his transformation as
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: his understanding and comfort level grew. And for me, that
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: was a really big deal because I knew that wouldn't
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: be accomplished without their help. Yeah. Yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: And I mean, and it's not easy. It's a challenge
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: when you're sitting there teetering between reality, right? And what
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: the perceived is because we've all watched, soap operas where
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: hospice is shown one way, but then when you're faced
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: with it, it's a whole different ball game.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Well, and we had the luxury bless your heart, freedom,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: my mother-in-law, um, of Jim being exposed to hospice prior
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: to him needing it. And so he saw it work and, and, um,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: you know, he was kind of a manly man. So
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: his attitude kind of changed from, you know, if I
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: ever have this problem, you know, just put me out
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: to pasture. It changed from that to I want hospice
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: if I ever need it. And he was so grateful
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: for what it did for his mom that, in fact,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: we got the terminal diagnosis for him two years before
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: he actually died. So he was on treatment for a while.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: But as soon as we got the terminal diagnosis, we
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: said to the doctor, how will we know when it's
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: time for hospice? And he was shocked and kind of
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: didn't quite know what to say because we were thinking ahead.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: So it was kind of interesting and it made it
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: very easy when And Paula, you're right.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: A lot of us are not given that exposure in
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: the very beginning. We hear horror stories from friends and family,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: but it paints a different picture when you're actually faced
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: with it. And also thinking about how Jim is a
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: very man of, oh, no, I don't want this to
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: be how my life is to find that balance. Or
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: if you want to call it that grounding of it's OK, right?
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Because a lot of men of a certain age, my
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: uncle is 71. He is a man who's very much,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: I want to do it all, right? And a lot
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: of men are in that position. And I'm curious, Paula,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: for you and Joe, And I'll start with you, Paula.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: What did you recognize was that change in Jim? And
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: how did you take that transformation for yourself as his
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: wife to see him accept that? This level of help
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: and things like that. And then, Joe, for you, from
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: your own experience being a hospice nurse for so long
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: and recognizing that families grieve very differently.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: You've got the person who's there initially, but then you
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: have the extended family. How do you help those patients
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: who may be and their families in very different emotional states?
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: So Paula, we'll start with you and then Joe, you
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: can go ahead.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Well, after they had initially told Jim, he probably would
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: have lived a good long time if he lived a year. Well,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: we were about a year and three months from that point.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: And Jim had decided he wanted to give up treatment.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: And I said, well, you know, that's going to eventually
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: mean hospice. Yes, he knew. So he gave up treatment
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: and for a while he did okay. But then he
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: started declining again and not being able to hold his
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: food down. And so one day I said to him,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't have anything else in my bag
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: of tricks to keep you comfortable. do you think it's time?
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: And he's like, call hospice. So that's how we made
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: that transition. He made it easy.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: And to answer your question about how do we help
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: families who have different levels of understandings and different aims
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: and goals? Well, we have a team and We have
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: a social worker that can come in and a chaplain.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: And also myself, when I kind of can see that, oh,
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: we've got competing values here. We've got some issues that
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: aren't easily solved. Then I call the social worker to
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: have a family meeting. I might call the chaplain if
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: it seems to be about fear of death. The chaplain
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: can really help with that. So I don't just take
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: it on myself. I involve the rest of the team.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: And that's really important to understand that hospice is a team.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Well, and Joe, for you being a nurse, I mean,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: being a nurse is a demanding career, especially now what
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: we're seeing where there's a influx now of death doulas
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: that are being implemented in different sectors. And I know
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of debate about whether death doulas are
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: appropriate or if we need to change models up. to
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: allow the appropriate staff. As you mentioned, you confide with
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: a social worker. You also have a chaplain come in.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: right because people are wrestling with their faith people are
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: questioning is this really my end how can i be
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: comfortable and okay with my faith and the walk that
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: i've walked with the god of my understanding right yes
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: so I really appreciate you sharing that Joe, because I
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: think so many people don't. I think that's the fear
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: is who's involved with my care. Who's here to support
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: me and Paula for you. When Jim said I'm ready,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: you know, being a caregiver is hard and I can
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: say it from firsthand. I mean, some people know I
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: quit my job to care for my mom full time,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: but it, it was a challenge and, At the same time,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: I don't regret it. I don't regret it because it
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: opened the door actually for me to start becoming an entrepreneur.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: So I know not everybody has that same luxury, but
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: for me, I would not change it for the world.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Paula and Joe, before we continue with the rest of
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: the conversation, if our audience obviously wants to get a
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: copy of Dying Well with Hospice, if both of you
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: are doing some type of joint speaking thing, how can
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: our audience connect with both of you?
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Well, we do have a website and it's through our
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: little publishing entity, amansvitaepress.net. And also they can get our book,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: which is available on Amazon and KDP. Um, we do
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: have a sort of a local, uh, speaking event coming up. Um,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: and then, you know, there seems to be a line
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: of people who, who want to do podcasts and interviews.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: There are quite a lot of book reviews going on
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: out there. I don't know that we'll be traveling the
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: country per se, but, um, but they can reach us
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: through email. you know, our, our website, which is listed
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: on the book and everywhere else. Excellent.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: So for our audience, you can get a copy of
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: the book, probably visiting whether it's Amazon or any major
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: major book outlet that you want to. Obviously Paula and
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Joe are available to, you know, be interviewed or whatever
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: speaking engagements that you want them to be involved in.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Paula and Joe, one of the things that a lot
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: of people don't, may not realize is that grief that
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: settles in even before your loved one transitioned. And I'm
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: curious for you, Paula, what were you grieving while Jim
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: was still here?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: One of the things for me, I guess I'm a
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: little bit different. At one point, I felt it was
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: important that he understand how much I care and how
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: much I was going to miss him And so one
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: day I decided I needed to tell this to him.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: And in the middle of it, I fell apart and
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: started crying. And he said to me, don't ever do
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: that again. But the grieving that I did was just
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: the little things. When he grieved, I grieved. When he
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: had to give away his beloved truck or sell his
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: truck and ask me to leave so he could then
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I was grieving, you know, um, the first time he
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: was so weak, he asked me to feed him. I
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: had to go, okay, sure. And I went in the
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: other room and went and came back and dealt with it. Um,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: so that he wouldn't know how upset I was. Um, and,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: and what I would remind myself in those moments is
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: this is about him, not me. I can grieve with him,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: but For me to grieve in front of him selfishly,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do it anymore.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Paula, I can feel that. I didn't want my
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: mom to ever see me crying about her either. I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: have the very last conversation me and her had an
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: hour before she transitioned.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: At the very end of the recording, you can hear
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: me just breaking down. And my mom, she's telling me, Portia,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: it's okay, darling. It's okay. So she could see even
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: right now that I was struggling, but I didn't, you know,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I wanted to be strong for her. Right. So Paul,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I can, I can relate to that a hundred percent. And,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: you know, it's, It's never easy. And I say that
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: all the time because I want people to understand that
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: even for me, as someone who talks about grief often
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: and supports other people, even for me, I still have
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: my days. I don't regret it at all. Not one bit. Joe,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I'm curious for you as a hospice nurse. What do
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: you wish more families really understood about the anticipatory grief,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: especially when they're focused on caring for somebody that they love?
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I think that they don't understand the breadth of hospice
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: services and how comfortable they can become with the right
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: mix of support and medications. And so they wait too long.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: They wait too long. And sometimes they just come to
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: hospice a few days before death. But I would say
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: if people only understood that they could really actually thrive
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: with the right mix of support and medicines, they might
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: come to hospice a little bit sooner. I can give
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: you an example if you have time. We had a
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: lady who had had extensive experience cancer treatment. And she
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: finally said enough. She was very depleted and nearly couldn't walk.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: She was so depleted. So we sent our doctor in.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: He examined her. He gave her the right mix of medications.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: We gave her our home health aid to give her
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: baths and massages twice a week. And within about four
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: or five weeks, she was gaining weight. She was taking
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: walks in the neighborhood. And she even, when I went
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: to a local spa, I even found her there. She
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: had gone to the spa, you know, about four months
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: afterwards and she was taking in the waters. So that's
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: an example of what hospice can do. It can really
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: help people feel so comfortable that they actually thrive.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And we have examples of that as well. Um, Jim
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: wanted not so much to have a big funeral when
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: he passed. He wanted to celebrate his friends before he left.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: And so I think it was about two, two and
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: a half months before he passed. We had what we
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: called a slice of life party and we served pie
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: and a hundred of his friends came and they could
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: not believe Joe had set him up with different she
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: adjusted his medications. He was strong. He was, you know,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: really doing well that day. And he was, and, um,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: we just had a great party, but he started telling people, uh, yeah,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go to Yosemite. Oh no. Yellowstone. I
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: knew it was one of the Y. Thank you, Joe.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, why do you want to go there?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I thought he had already been, um, and, He said, no,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I've always just wanted to take you. And I said
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: to Joe, talk him out of it. Talk him out.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: She said, no, you can do this. And she helped
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: me prepare to take him on a road trip to Yellowstone.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: And it was beautiful and successful. And, you know, I'm
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: so kind of proud of myself that I listened to her.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: As well as him. Yeah.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, Joe, look, you're in Paula's corner because
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: it's interesting you bring that up. My mom was also
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: someone who didn't ask for a lot. And the year
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: before she transitioned, she asked if we could do the
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: American Lung Association Lung Force Walk. So we did it together.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: And my mom had her walker with her. My mom
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: was in the military.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: That military mindset of I'm going to finish until the
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: end and different people would come and say, Hey, do
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: you want us to give you a ride to the
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: finish line? My mom would say no. And she did.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: My mom did her walk with her Walker and she finished.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: And we, you know, I always hold on to that
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: memory because that was the first and last walk we
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: did together as a mother daughter team. And I'm glad
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: that I listened to her because she never asked. And
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, mom doesn't ask for much. So I said, well,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I can do this. I can take time to do
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: that with her.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, what a beautiful memory, too, for both of
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you that Jim wanted to go to Yellowstone. And I mean, hey,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: but you listen, he got to see the, you know,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: beautiful just architecture and rocks and trees and all the above. So, hey.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he got to fish in this river that he
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: always wanted to fish in. Wow. And the guide told him,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: that he had gotten the largest trout of the season.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true or not, but he
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: took that with him and he just was so happy.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And if I have one point to make about hospice
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: to share with people, it's that my experience of hospice
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: has left me with so many beautiful memories that completely
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: cover the grief and all that other stuff. It's not
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: that I don't occasionally grieve, but I don't dwell on
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the hard times. I remember the good times and I
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: remember how good Jim and I were together during that time.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: So as I'm sure you do with your mom.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing too, Paula and Joe,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, there's so much division
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: amongst everything, especially on social media and, with what's going
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: on in the world, and even with dying well. Choosing
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: how you want to make your exit, I think there's
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: a lot of debate. But I think at the end
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: of the day, it's all about what makes you comfortable.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: What fields of gold can you see before you make
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: your exit? What people do you want to love on
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and let them know, right? Take a trip to Yosemite, right?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Or Yellowstone as we made up, right? So Paula and Joe,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: let me just say this. This has been a beautiful conversation.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: And I thank both of you so much for coming on.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: We're going to be wrapping up here soon. But before
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: we do, I want to ask both of you a
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: final question. Paula, for you. After everything that you've experienced
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: with Jim and the years that followed, what does finding
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: your groove mean to you today?
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Actually, Joe and I initially wrote this book and published
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: it in 2017. And with everything that's intervened in all
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: that time since he passed, I didn't focus on it.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: So What we're doing now is relaunching the book. It's
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: been updated slightly. And it gives me a purpose. And
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: it's taking me back to feeling close to him because
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: he really wanted to get this message out. And now
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm closer to him for that.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Paula. And I believe you are honoring
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: a wish for him, keeping his legacy alive by sharing
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: with other people. your experience with hospice. And because there's
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: so many people that are still afraid, there's a lot
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: of hesitation. There's a lot of questions. But I think
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, when you're surrounded, as
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, Joe, with that team, that team who sees you,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: who loves you, who believes in you, you're going to
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: be okay. Joe, for you, after accompanying so many families
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: through the end of life, What does finding your groove
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: mean to you today?
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Well, I'd say finding my groove has always been how
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: to help people overcome a problem. And I feel as
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: though the fear around death, I knew that when I
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: was seven years old and I was very interested in
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: finding out why are people so afraid of death and
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: why can't you even use the word?
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: The word death, you know? So anyway, when I became
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: a hospice nurse and now I really feel like now
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: I'm still seeking to help people overcome their fear by
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: educating and filling in the gaps of knowledge that usually
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: causes the fear.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a hundred percent right, Joe. As I mentioned,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: my mom was terrified of it and she, You know,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: I think at the end of the day, you get
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to choose, right? That's the beautiful part about what life
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: has brought us is we get to choose how we
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: make our ending, how we get to write our ending. Well, everybody,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: that was Paula Wren and Joe Gusley that you heard
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: from today on Grew with Portia. And that concludes our conversation.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: And until next time, everybody, peace and hair grease, everyone.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you.