Latest / Only Fee-Only / #127 - This Wasn’t the Plan: Andy Panko on Intentional Growth and True Freedom

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#127 - This Wasn’t the Plan: Andy Panko on Intentional Growth and True Freedom · Only Fee-Only

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: How's it going?
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Everyone, Welcome back to the Only Fee Only podcast and, as always, thanks so much for being here.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: In this episode we have Andy Pankow returning for his second appearance on the Only Fee Only podcast.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: It's always a great conversation when we get the chance to talk to Andy.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: He's the owner, founder and a financial planner at Tenant Financial and it's been awesome to learn how he's grown over the years, from starting his firm to not really being sure about wanting to hire people to now hiring two people.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: So really cool journey and just always an awesome guy and great to get his perspective.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: So enjoy this episode with Andy Pankow on the Only Fee Only podcast.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: What's up everyone.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the Only Fee Only podcast.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: I'm Peter Travello.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I'm here with my co-host, Brock Buckles, and today so excited to have Andy Pankow back on.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: This guy almost doesn't need an introduction.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited to have Andy Penko back on.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: This guy almost doesn't need an introduction.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: He is just such an advocate for the fee-only space and love all the content and messaging he puts out there.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: So, Andy, welcome back to the show, man.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: I'm honored to be back a second time.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: Looking forward to it.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: So we know who you are, Andy, but for those who don't know, you want to give a quick background about yourself and the work that you do.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Sure, I am the founder and owner of Tenon Financial.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: It is a retirement focused planning investment management firm based in Metouchi, new Jersey, but operating completely virtually with clients throughout the country.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Firm started in late 2019.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: It is now myself who's at capacity.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: A second advisor started a few years ago who's at capacity, and just recently hired a third advisor who's now in the process of taking on new relationships.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So we have to start there, man, because I remember in the beginning and we've known you for quite a while now and in the beginning you're like I don't know if I want to take this thing beyond a seller and for all you guys catching up and wondering where he was last time we had a conversation back in July 23rd or 2023.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So listen to episode number 57, before this one, if you haven't, so we can get you all caught up.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: But one of the things that we talked about, man, as you were bringing on that first advisor, after like some serious deliberation of do I want to stay in the solopreneur route?
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Because obviously you know you have a.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: You had a killer lifestyle practice going on, right.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: If you would have wanted to keep doing that never pivot to hire anybody you would have been just fine and would have been able to go on with your life and do that right, but you decided to do it.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: So catch us up on kind of how that went.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: And then you're hiring another advisor.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: So let's make it to there.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: So yeah, when I set out to do this, I started planning this in 2016, with the goal of 2019 would be when I'd launch it.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: So up to 2019, I was in corporate finance and investing and just kind of done with the corporate grind and rat race and working in New York, commuting from New Jersey and that whole life.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: So I very much wanted the opposite of that.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: I wanted the quintessential lifestyle work by myself, make my own schedule, not be accountable, not to say not accountable to I'm accountable to clients, but not have a boss and just keep it manageable.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: I'm not looking to make a million bucks a year.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: I wanted decent income for flexibility and control, for work that I enjoy, people I enjoy working with, enjoy working with.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: So set out to build that and thankfully, for various reasons we discussed in the last episode, the business grew faster than expected.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I got to the 50 clients I wanted within two years and was like all right now, what?
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: So I kind of hung out for a while and it was everything I thought it was.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: The money was what I thought it was, the lifestyle flexibility was what I thought it was.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: But I'm like is this really it?
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: You know, at the time I was, uh what 44, give or take a year and like I'm really just going to hang out the next 20, 30 years and just kind of glide this into my own retirement.
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Um, I felt like I had more energy and timing, willingness and ability to to grow a little, but I still have the guiding light of I don't want to mess up this lifestyle thing.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: I don't want to go back to like a 40, 50 hour a week thing.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: I don't want the business to consume me and own me.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: I want flexibility still.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: And also my kids had gotten older.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: When I started planning this almost 10 years ago, they were what I don't know.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: They were like five and seven, so I wanted to be around more, et cetera.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: Now my kids are 15 and 17.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: They're getting on with life.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: There's less need for me around day to day.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: So life circumstances have changed such that I now have more time and energy and interest in being more involved in a business, as opposed to needing the extreme level of flexibility I had.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: So, with all that in mind, I was like I had a lot of people still wanting to work together.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: I was just freely giving them away to other advisors I like and trust and I was like what if I were to bolt on another advisor, not an assistant to me, not to lever me up, but someone to take these clients where they'd be getting helped?
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: The advisor, because they don't have to worry about business development and selling.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: I already have the business, I already have the RIA, I have the technology, the whatever.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: Just plug them in, let them do everything for these clients.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: And that's what happened.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: So hired Michelle in early 23,.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: Worked out marvelously well.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: The mutual intention was she'd get to 30 clients and that's it.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Because she has a young child and wants flexibility.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: She hit her 30 at a pace of roughly two clients a month was the onboarding rate we figured would work.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: And that's sure enough.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: What happened?
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: So she hit capacity last year, still people reaching out wanting to work together.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: And now I'm at the same spot, like what do I do?
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: So I figured I think I can replicate that model of bolting on another advisor where I already have it cracked.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: How to get people get interest.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Just plug in an advisor where they do all the work you know onboarding the client, trading, rebalancing, planning, day-to-day communications operations, whatever.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: And so that's what I did.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: So I wasn't um, actively looking, just like I wasn't actively looking for michelle.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: She just kind of reached out randomly on linkedin after hearing me on a podcast as we got talking like oh my god, this could be the person that could fit what I'm thinking of, and it worked out.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Same thing with the new person.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Wasn't actively looking to hire but reached out to me on LinkedIn after hearing me on a podcast and we got to talking.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like I think would be a great fit to plug in and replicate this thing.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: So that's what we're doing.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: I still have a lot of flexibility in my days.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's a little more work now in running the business and obviously onboarding a new advisor, a lot of training and getting them up to speed, learning systems and process and whatever.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: But the expectation is and this is what happened with Michelle once they're up to speed they're more or less autonomous in you know, knowing what to do and going through the process and et cetera.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: So it's still very lifestyle-y.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: Now, with a second employee, after the initial training and work involved in getting a person up to speed, I'm convinced that it'll still be a very flexible lifestyle thing.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Well, and the thing that I like, man, is that you kind of stumbled upon these people and they happen to be the right, fit, right.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's something so underrated about that.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: It's like sometimes, when you're looking the hardest, you don't find exactly what you need, and then sometimes, when you're not looking at all, it's just like wait, this could make sense.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes the best things in life come as kind of surprises.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: So what did you see in them, man?
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Because I think that's a good point to kind of nail down on for advisors that are trying to bring somebody on, or like what is the vibe like when you actually feel kind of that it could work.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Like what were the inclinations or thoughts that you had when you met both of these people where?
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: you're like, I think we could make this work.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: I have a very different approach to hiring and who I'm trying to bolt in.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: That I don't think is easy or easy to replicate elsewhere.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: So I and I have a bias towards people of my background came from a lengthy career, very involved in investing and risk management and working in a corporate advisory world where you're already familiar with compliance and what to say and not say and all the other sort of behind the scenes things you have to adhere to in being in the advisory or investment management business.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: So these are seasoned professionals, responsible adults.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: They know investing well, which I think is important because, while proper investing is frankly quite simple and easy, I think a lot of people overcomplicate it.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: It's not unless you've gone through it really in the thick of it, that you can get that appreciation, understanding that, yeah, most of investing is just noise, shiny object noise.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: Keep it simple, it's all people need.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: So these people know investing well that I hire Again.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: They're responsible adults.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: They're generally 20-ish years in a prior career and they're looking for a career 2.0.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: They're not eager looking to get equity, looking to take on the world, looking to have this new like massive, whatever you know they want flexibility, they want to be an advisor for the right reasons.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: They want to meaningful work, work with clients on their own terms, etc.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: On their own terms, et cetera.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: They don't want the corporate grind and they're not going to be looking to take over the world.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: Like I said, like I would never it sounds terrible to say but I would never hire never, say never.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: But I'm afraid to hire like a mid twenties something who's a few years out of school, super eager, like wants to grow, the climb the ladder, wants to grow, needs to make a lot of money, whatever they're going to need a lot of wrangling and expectation setting and managing and whatever.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: I want to avoid as much as possible all that stuff because, having done it for 20 years in the corporate world, I don't want that.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: You want the plug and play option, not the holy cow option.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I want the plug and play.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: I want people that are smart, that know the things not to do, that have life experience.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: That translates to being a good advisor and helping understand things.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: That don't need the motivation Like they can self-motivate.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: They know what they need to get done.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: They're responsible adults I keep using that term over and over.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Plug them in, pay them really well as salaried employees.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: You know they're not 1099.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: They are employees.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: I don't want to mess around some complicated structure with a bonus and payouts and whatever it's like.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: No, this is what you get paid.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Here's the expectation.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: As long as your clients are happy, I don't care if you're working two hours a week, like do what needs to get done.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I'm not breathing down your back.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: I'll make sure you're trained and I trust you and you know what you're doing.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: But otherwise, like you go, do you right.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: If you can be really efficient at it, good for you.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: The pay is good, the life it's flexible, it's completely virtual.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: Um, that's also hard.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: For someone in their mid-20s it sounds good on the surface to have a job like that, but I think someone younger in their career like needs the push and the poking and the guidance and the motivation, whereas someone's 40 something who's been through the corporate ringer, they'll be okay to kind of self-manage, you know for sure yeah, those are all such.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I mean we come from.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: We were recruited into the insurance industry from Northwestern Mutual the beast itself and Brock and I we've been talking about you know how do we bring on an account executive and we want to make sure that they're salaried and they have the same train of thought and they think like fee only planners.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: So I mean, besides, just like making sure that they have that alignment with you, like are there any other little factors that you found to?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Like try to bring people in or benefits?
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Like is their PTO?
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Or like, hey, we'll pay for you to go to conferences.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: You know, because Brock and I we get a lot of people and they're like, hey, do you know anyone hiring?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: We're like, yeah, there's a bunch, but like what's the good fit?
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So what's the attraction to you?
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: um, so the the pay is the pay.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: It's again not even a bonus, it's just what I think is really fair, if not high, uh, flat pay there.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: The only other financial benefits there's no health insurance, for example, like I get coverage through my wife, so kind of someone sort of needs to have coverage elsewhere.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Already I did start a 401k last year with 5% match, you know, dollar for dollar 5%, so that's a pretty generous match.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: I do also pay for, you know, all the technology, all the stuff needed as employees, obviously, but also conferences and training.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: So both employees I'm sending to Ed Slott's two day, you know intensive thing.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: So that's, you know, 4,000 bucks just in ticket fees, plus hotel, plus flights.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Michelle's gone the last few years to the XY planning conference.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: You know I pay for that.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: So my intention is to pay for two events slash conferences, slash training things per year within reason, I mean not going to.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Bora Bora for 40 grand and stuff that's productive or good networking or whatever.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: So there's those ancillary benefits to it.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: And then PTO.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: This is where, again, you need to be responsible.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: There's nothing formal.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: Like I said, I don't care how little you work, do what needs to be done, keep clients happy, respond to emails or any inquiry within a business day, within 24 hours of business day.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: And if people know that again, having worked in the corporate world, they're already aware of expectations and what to do.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: So I'm pretty sure, a lot of the year, once advisors are fully onboarded with their client roster and it's kind of maintenance mode of semi-annual meetings and random servicing.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: And I'll say this for myself as well, there's lots of days where I'm working maybe a couple hours a day on actual advisory work forget all the social media messing around but like actual advisory work a couple hours a day.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: So and I assume that's happening with you know the folks that work with me.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: So, um, that's a hard fit for someone in their mid-20s again where I think they need more structure, more pressure right, more motivation.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: Someone 45-ish who's been through the corporate grind like they're responsible enough.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: We know what they're doing.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Such is the expectation, yeah.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, absolutely so, man, we got to talk about IULs because we got to touch on it.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: It's a non-negotiable, so you bought one first, before we get into the craziness on LinkedIn, because we're on a lot of the same threads and commenting on a lot of the same stuff, how is the one that you got?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I know it's a very long-term play.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: You still have it, I'm assuming.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Any big changes there?
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Obviously, if people just listen to episode 57, we talked a lot about how it's a long-term play.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Only time will tell.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Are we still on the same page there?
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly it.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: So I bought it in December of 2022.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: So there's only been two annual anniversaries and annual statements and so far, it's tracking more or less as projected not exactly on it, but the cash value growth is tracking as projected.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: But, like you said, I mean, this is gonna be 10 plus years to see how this thing really holds up.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: 10 plus years to see how this thing really holds up.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: What I'll deem a success or failure well, I should use that word lightly but long-term, how the actual growth in cash value tracks compared to what was projected it would.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: I know it's not gonna be the same, but is it gonna be substantially higher, substantially lower?
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: Now, I shouldn't say it's a failure because, first and foremost, it's life insurance right.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: So, like my wife is the insured, If she dies tomorrow or died two days after getting the policy, she'd get the death benefit.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: She'd get the death benefit right, In which case it's a tremendous success, did what it was supposed to do.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: So there's always that right.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but the cash value, the using or viewing it as an investment or cash value tool, that's going to be a really long-term play and so far there's not enough time to say if it's working or not.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're very early on.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: It's a long-term contract, for sure, and that's the other thing, man, is we always talk about it.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: If anybody's pitching those things as a get-rich-quick scheme or you think you're going to see the money immediately run the other way, you definitely need to be talking about all the fees that are inside of them, what it looks like long term, the nuances of the policies.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And when I see you talking to people who are commenting on LinkedIn, a lot of times and I saw you, you know what I will say a lot of people that might see your comments might be like Andy hates IUL.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: It's like, actually, andy owns an IUL.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: And I saw you make a comment the other day that was like, hey, I appreciate you actually putting this post up because you talked about some of the positives.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: You talked about some of the negatives, but what are some of the recent kind of magic wand IUL posts that you've seen and what were your takes on it, man?
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: It's just sort of the same stuff recycled.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Some play on no loss, no downside, can't lose, lose money, um, you know, that's always kind of front and center the tax stuff, tax-free income for life, any sort of insinuation that the income you can get from it is guaranteed.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: The vast majority of cases it's not.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: I understand there are some policies that do have some sort of like guaranteed annual loan amount, yeah, but otherwise these are all just based on assumptions and projections of taking annual recurring loans decades down the road and, you know, hoping the policy holds up well.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: You're telling me it's not a Roth IRA on steroids.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Is that what you're telling me?
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: It's definitely not a Roth IRA on steroids bro.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Which is how it's often pitched.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I mean the IUL.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: It's a product and I think you know we can talk about the intricacies and all that.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: But the real problem stems that you know, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: And it's the brainwashing and you know the commission breath and it comes back to in the insurance industry.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Right at Northwestern Mutual we were told you're going to do financial planning, you know you're going to help families, you're going to do budgeting, and all of them were, like you know, loosely correct, but really you're going to be selling a term or disability policy or whole life, because that's how you're compensated.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Whole life.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: The premiums are higher than term.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: That's statistically and actuarially how it has to be and because of that the commissions are higher on it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: So of course there is human incentive to upsell a higher premium.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Is it's to the, you know, producer?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: But you know, like, how do we even go about solving like that producer problem?
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Right, because that's really what it is.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Because we can talk about cap rates all day and that, da, da, da, da.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: But it's really like the mutuals and these captive organizations.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: You know it's like, how does one go about fixing it?
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you can.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Education obviously is a big part of it Education, training, trying to minimize or reduce the bias and conflict as much as possible.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know that you can ever fix it.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's always going to be the inherent conflict of if all you're doing, all your license to do, is sell insurance and the only way you get paid is by consummating a sale and getting a commission.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: That's a huge conflict.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Now there's lots of people who can manage it, who are responsible, who are honest, who don't let that cloud their judgment or their recommendations, like you guys.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: You guys are awesome.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: You're the first ones I'd go to for a lot of insurance questions and needs, just because I'm confident that you go about it the right way and this isn't clouding your judgment or recommendations.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: But that's just because I know you.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: I'm confident that you go about it the right way and this isn't clouding your judgment or recommendations.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's just because I know you and have a comfort level with you.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: You can tell from so much of the nonsense on social media that's not there.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: These people are just out to get you to buy the product they're selling.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and it's a problem.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: The compensation man.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: That's a big problem too, because it's like Pete and I have said a million times if there was a way where we could do the fee-only insurance type deal, where you get paid same way that you guys do on recommendations, advice, put a plan together, throw it out there for people, that'd be a beautiful thing.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: But you can't change that.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: The insurance industry still is going to pay somebody a commission.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: So the last thing you want to be doing is double dipping and charging people up front and making a commission on the back.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: So it's really an industry Industry problems, what it comes down to it 100% is the organizations themselves can do a lot of good in helping the culture around it and not making it so sales and production focused, not doing incentives.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: You sell X amount of product or X amount of premium and you win this trip to wherever that's so, so clearly grossly incentivized to someone just to go sell stuff.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Right Right, Make good fits, just sell stuff.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, people are writing policies on their daughters and stuff just to be able to.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, man, I saw, honestly, when we were at that place I would see People actually got in trouble for it To make it to the awards trip or to get an extra ribbon at the annual meeting or whatever.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: People would write like a policy on themselves, their daughters and their wife just to get like the three policies that they needed to be able to do it, and then a lot of times after the trip or whatever, they just cancel them.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: So it's, it gets weird over there, man.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: A little term conversion, you know.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Every year is a term conversion.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's definitely problems pervasive and it's going to be hard to fix.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: You can fix it, you can make improvements, but I think it's always going to be the underlying issue structurally.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: It's the structure and I think that the way to really help it is just to continue to build the fee-only space, bring attention to it, keep creating content.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: You know they all have so much compliance and stuff.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: They're not on video, they're not on social media.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Now, the ones who are, who are like selling iul and stuff, that's the wild west, um, but you know the ones that captive organizations are gonna at least outspeak them but the videos of the.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: What kind of cars do you drive?
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: How much life insurance you sell this month, how, what kind of car do you drive like?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Come, come on, man, exactly and to be fair.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: no compensation model is conflict-free flat fee included, hourly included.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Every model has some sort of inherent conflict, but in my opinion some structures have more conflicts than others.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: But it's not like flat fee is a cure-all, but I do think it would go a long way in minimizing or reducing conflict at least.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it can be better, right.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: But, like even early on in my career, you know, we were told, even if you're going to get an investment world and do the commissioned insurance and the you know, investment AUM and be paid on, both of those are like insurance is what puts food on the table in the first five years, make no, you know, don't be and it's I mean, it makes sense, right.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Like people that are building an AUM book takes time to acquire those assets.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: And if you get somebody to put $10,000 a year into an investment account versus paying $10,000 a year for a whole life policy, there's a big difference in the amount of money that you're going to make that first year.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, we'll get off that man, I always like hearing your take on it, but I think you do such a great job and you have a brilliant mind.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: You truly understand finance, you put a lot of great content out there and you were able to grow in a way that is really admirable.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people look at people like you and they're like how do they do it?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And so what advice would you give to somebody that's just trying to get into the profession and get kind of off the ground and take those first few steps in terms of building and growing.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: It's hard.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know what the magic bullet is.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: I think in my case I know I understand the technical aspects well, specifically the nuances of the intersection of taxes and retirement planning, and that wasn't by accident.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: That was years worth of listening to podcasts, reading books, following blogs by folks like Ed Slott and when I had an aha moment that, wow, I really know this stuff.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Before I was even in the advisory business, I was still planning and learning and whatever.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: I was a member of the FPA financial planning association as like a junior student member or whatever and I frequent their online member chat forum and there'd be advisors like seasoned advisors 20, 30 years, 20, 30 years experience asking questions about like IRA taxes or whatever, right, and I'd know the answer just from hearing it on a podcast or something that Slott said.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: So I was an active responder in the FPA group and I started gathering a following there and realized, wow, like I already know more than a lot of people in this industry and I'm not even an advisor yet, yeah, right.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: The next thing was, once I actually launched a business, it doesn't matter how smart you are If you're not getting in front of people and making it clear what you can do for them and how you can help them, you're not going to get a business.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: So you know, as we talked about before, I think mine was a mix of dumb luck, a mix of pandemic, a mix of starting a Facebook group and whatever, but for me it's knowing the stuff well is basic table stakes, being not salesy I hate sales.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: I'm terrible at selling in the traditional sense, but I love educating, giving away and just helping inform.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: If you can find a venue or outlet to do that, that reaches a lot of people, not just random people, but people that you ideally want to work with and would be a good fit.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: That's the key.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Give away as much as possible in terms of knowledge, guidance, answers.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Give away without asking or seeking anything in return.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Being non-salesy ends up being one of the best sales tools you can do and building credibility and people getting comfortable about you and thinking you're honest and know your stuff and just keep at it.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Be consistent, whether it's a podcast, whether it's YouTube channels, whether it's a blog, whether it's whatever, keep at it.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Stay focused on your content that's customized for the market you want to work with and help and just keep hitting it in a non-salesy way.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely love that.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, where do you see the firm going?
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: So you're bringing on the next person, literally tomorrow May 1st Um, you know, it's easy to always sit here as a financial planner, right, I mean, it's interesting being a business owner and being a you know, a father and all that, but also being a financial planner, right, there's gotta be like this never ending like dilemma of like, okay, what should I tell my clients?
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's what I need to do.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is what Andy does, so this is what I tell my clients.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: You know what's the future look like.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: I honestly don't know.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: I didn't know five years ago, other than I was dead set on I'm always going to stay solo and just all my clients will be older than me.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: I'll just sort of glide this into my retirement.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: That changed.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: As of now, my overarching goal or sort of limitation is I don't want the business to consume me, like the running of the business and the worrying about the business and whatever.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: I still have my 50-ish clients.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: I like serving.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I want to continue to be their advisor and still run the business, but still have a life and never had this feel like a job where I wake up.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: I'm like I got out of work today.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: Not once had that feeling since I started this business in November 2019.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I truly enjoy what I do and look forward to it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: When that starts to change, I'll know I would have overdone it.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: So I'm trying to not let myself cross that line, because once you cross that line, you can't really go back, at least not easily.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: So it's going to evolve.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't put it past me to hire again at some point when the next advisor is filled up and we're all settled.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: What that looks like, I don't know I'm concerned about hiring like an admin person, because once you do that, then expenses really start to get high without incremental revenue.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Then it's like you're running an enterprise for lack of a better word.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: I don't think I want that.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Then it's like you're running an enterprise, for lack of a better word.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: I don't think I want that.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: But again, as life changes, personally and my kids get even older and whatever, who knows, ask me again in two years and five years, I'm sure my answer may be very different of what.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: I want at the time and what the firm looks like at the time.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I really think, man, but I think it's cool and I think that's okay, right, like, yeah, a lot of people are like I'm gonna stick to this, this is what I'm doing.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: And you know, when I first met you, before you ever hired, you're like no, this is definitely what I'm doing, like I'm staying solar.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But you know, life changes.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Your kids are older, like the, there's the next phase of life.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Like you, it's okay to be challenged in different ways, it's okay to stumble upon things, and you weren't looking for it and it's turned out to be a success and you've still managed to be able to keep those aspects of life and freedom that have always been important to you.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Now, incrementally, I would imagine if you were like well, we'll bolt another one on, we'll bolt another one on, and then there's 10,.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Maybe that changes things, but I don't think you're ever going to be like I want 10, I want 15, or I want 20.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: It's just that would be a little bit too far the other way.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think so.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: I'm not looking to build enterprise value.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: When I started this, I assumed there'd be zero enterprise value.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: This just stops when I stop.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now, with two employees like I'm starting to realize there's something to this.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: What do I do with it?
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Right, you know enterprise value wise?
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: I think you got to be honest with what you want out of this and why, and be intentional in every decision you make or not.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: Make aligns with your why.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: I'm not in this just for the money.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: I make very good money, don't get me wrong.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I know I can make substantially more.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I know I can easily charge more.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I know I could have easily hired more, scaled up more faster than I did.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: I don't want that right.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: I value the balance, the life, the whatever.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: It's not just about money, and when you take just being about money off the table, it's actually very liberating.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: It feels good to have the intentionality and the focus with how you build this thing without letting it grow with reckless abandon, which is what I'm avoiding.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, it only gets more rewarding, so I mean final question I got for you, andy.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I mean outside of work.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I mean what else are you into, man?
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I mean outside of LinkedIn and flat feet planning.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I just you know I'm sure a lot of people would love to hear like hobbies, I know woodworking in the past or something like that.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: That's it, man Eat.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: That's it, man eat.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Sleep advise and LinkedIn.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: No, my kids again they're.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: They're, you know, requiring less of me.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: I'm the prop dad.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: They both do competitive dance.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I'm the prop dad for them.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I build the props, I transport the props, I whatever.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: That's cool.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: So there's that.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: When the weather's good, I like biking, road biking I'll go for long bike rides every weekend.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: In good, I like biking, road biking.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I'll go for long bike rides every weekend.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: In the summer, I like Lego Nice.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: You can see.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: That's where are we.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: That's the Home Alone house behind me.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I was going to say I thought I recognized that man.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Dude, that thing's amazing right there, that's cool, what's?
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: the most outrageous Lego set that you ever put together?
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: How many pieces?
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Probably that this is over 4,000 pieces.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Holy cow.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, really intricate, really cool.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: That is neat.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: What else that's about it?
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: I mean kids, I like live music.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: Going to concerts Got a handful of concerts on the docket this year.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Who are you going to see this weekend?
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: Tomorrow, going to see someone my daughter likes called brent breen.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: Bren b-r-e-n-n.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: Never heard of them, but never heard of them so listen to a few songs sounds cool and it's at this place outside of philly that seems like a cool joint going there, going to see the avid brothers twice yeah, they're good.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I've seen them.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: They're really good like them, yeah, um, there's something I'm drawing a blank.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: There's something else.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Uh, there's a zeppelin cover band really good, like professional towards the country cover band I see a couple times a year and seeing them in the fall that's cool I want to say, or someone else, I don't remember who- yeah, I, uh.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I think they've been to the venue that's right by my house a few times.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: I can't remember what they're called.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: There's definitely a zeppelin cover band that goes, and I've always wanted to go see them.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Get the light out.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Now there's, there's a few different.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: There's a few.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Man, I don't care what I'm doing If live music's around and I could be hanging out with an IPA and hand watching good music.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm a happy guy, so that's Fair enough.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: I can't do the IPAs, but yeah, live music, cold beer, just hanging out, that's it.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: I don't need a lot in life.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: I love it, man.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with that.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Well, man, you put out great content.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I think everybody would be doing themselves a service by following along with what you're doing.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So where can people keep up with you, man?
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Best place is probably retirementplanningeducationcom.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: That is my technically outside business activity unrelated to the advisory thing.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: There's a link to a facebook group, podcast, youtube channel, whole bunch of freely downloadable stuff and a monthly blog there that I kind of do as an individual just to educate and share info I love it, andy.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today yeah, thank you guys.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Pleasure being on, and if I come back in two years I'm sure things may look very different with the firm.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: So we can't wait to it.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: See you soon all right, thank you guys.