Latest / The Grammar of Classical Education / Week 149: Revisiting: The Lost Tools of Learning - Applications for Today - Part 2

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Week 149: Revisiting: The Lost Tools of Learning - Applications for Today - Part 2 · The Grammar of Classical Education

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Grammar of Classical Education,
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  SPEAKER_00: a podcast that examines the philosophical foundations of classical education
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  SPEAKER_00: and then seeks
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  SPEAKER_00: to help classically-minded educators bring those ideas to life
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  SPEAKER_00: in their classroom, co-op, or homeschool settings.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Dr.
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  SPEAKER_00: Darlene Gomes from Leading to Wonder,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I am so glad you've joined us today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Before we begin, I want to let you know that this episode is the first
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  SPEAKER_00: in a short series of best of episodes,
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  SPEAKER_00: specifically two episodes on the Lost Tools of Learning by Dorothy Sayers.
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  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned last week,
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  SPEAKER_00: oral surgery will require a bit of time away from the podcast, Mike.
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  SPEAKER_00: And rather than leave you without an episode,
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  SPEAKER_00: I thought this would be a good opportunity to revisit one of our earliest series
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  SPEAKER_00: that is definitely worth hearing again.
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  SPEAKER_00: We are picking up with part two of Dorothy Sayers' The Lost Tools of Learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: And by way of quick review,
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  SPEAKER_00: Dorothy Sayers was a prolific writer in the late 1800s,
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  SPEAKER_00: early 1900s in England, known for her vast
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  SPEAKER_00: She
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  SPEAKER_00: was a real force to be reckoned with,
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  SPEAKER_00: standing shoulder to shoulder with authors like C.S.
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  SPEAKER_00: Lewis and T.S.
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  SPEAKER_00: Eliot.
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  SPEAKER_00: With her knowledgeable base and her excellent written communication skills,
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  SPEAKER_00: she took a She aimed at the educational system
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  SPEAKER_00: in England in 1947 with her paper,
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  SPEAKER_00: The Lost Tools of Learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it is quite shocking
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  SPEAKER_00: to see problems pointed out with the educational system
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  SPEAKER_00: then and how they are reflected in 2024.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, outstandingly scary to see those similarities.
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  SPEAKER_00: She attributes the problem to the fact
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  SPEAKER_00: that we are not teaching our students how
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  SPEAKER_00: to think and we're not teaching them how to communicate.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is then playing out
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  SPEAKER_00: in a broader stage of the world around us,
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  SPEAKER_00: filled with the inability to logically think through and effectively
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  SPEAKER_00: and persuasively communicate.
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  SPEAKER_00: With that, she says, obviously there is a problem.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at a solution.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she points back to the educational system
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  SPEAKER_00: of the Middle Ages using what is called the stages of the trivium,
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  SPEAKER_00: which for those of you who are familiar with classical learning,
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  SPEAKER_00: the trivium and its levels of grammar,
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  SPEAKER_00: logic or dialectic and rhetoric are
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  SPEAKER_00: the foundations for today's classical model.
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  SPEAKER_00: The question then becomes,
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  SPEAKER_00: is looking back at how they did it in the Middle Ages a bad thing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that saying, oh, we're going backwards, we should be advancing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Is it a bad thing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or is it correcting an error in the way we are currently doing it?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because what we are getting as a result
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  SPEAKER_00: with today's educational system is not
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  SPEAKER_00: as effective as what they were getting in the Middle Ages.
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  SPEAKER_00: The difference then being classical education does not focus
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  SPEAKER_00: on subject matter.
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  SPEAKER_00: But focuses on teaching students how to think.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the various subjects are used to do that,
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  SPEAKER_00: are the fodder with which students learn.
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  SPEAKER_00: Learn to think, to communicate,
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  SPEAKER_00: and to have a solid basis in fact to begin with.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're really going to be focusing on this week is how do we make
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  SPEAKER_00: that translate into our 2024 classroom
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  SPEAKER_00: if it was something used back
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  SPEAKER_00: in the Middle Ages?
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  SPEAKER_00: Dorothy addresses this question very clearly
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  SPEAKER_00: with some pretty specific suggestions.
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  SPEAKER_00: But before we go into that,
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  SPEAKER_00: I really did feel it was necessary for us to take a look
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  SPEAKER_00: at the contrast between what we would say is the classical model
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  SPEAKER_00: and the progressive educational model, which is more common today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Gaining sources from many different places,
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  SPEAKER_00: really you can sum it up in a couple of statements that I think when you see
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  SPEAKER_00: the difference, it'll help you learn how
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  SPEAKER_00: to practically apply the classical model.
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  SPEAKER_00: Basically, the progressive educational system gets its name
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  SPEAKER_00: because it was contrasted.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was progressing from the traditional system.
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  SPEAKER_00: That division point came from pre-industrial times, is considered the classical,
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  SPEAKER_00: and post-industrial era.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the progressive learning arena,
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  SPEAKER_00: students learn by doing, Thematic units of study,
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  SPEAKER_00: they are developing social skills and cooperative learning,
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  SPEAKER_00: and they look forward with the subjects
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  SPEAKER_00: to what skills will society need.
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  SPEAKER_00: Contrasted with the classical system,
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  SPEAKER_00: which learns by learning facts and learning how to learn.
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  SPEAKER_00: Instead of having thematic units of study,
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  SPEAKER_00: we have stages of learning
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  SPEAKER_00: with which the students are reviewing over those facts
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  SPEAKER_00: and learning more as they go.
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  SPEAKER_00: And where the progressive education says,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's focus on social skills and cooperative learning,
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  SPEAKER_00: the traditional classical model says,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's teach them how to think and how
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  SPEAKER_00: to learn and then how to communicate better
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  SPEAKER_00: with that logical element thrown in.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hence, the classical model always will teach formal logic,
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  SPEAKER_00: not as a subject matter,
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  SPEAKER_00: but as a tool to learn and a tool to communicate.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, the progressive model does sound good,
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  SPEAKER_00: but has it really been successful?
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  SPEAKER_00: That kind of is up for question.
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  SPEAKER_00: So back though to the medieval and Dorothy Sayers presentation
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  SPEAKER_00: of the classical model of learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: She really breaks learning into the three ages of learning,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is Paul Parrott,
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  SPEAKER_00: Hurt and Poetic.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you think of it, pole parrot,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's the stage where the students parrot back and repeat back the facts.
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  SPEAKER_00: Pert, the base for words like impertinent,
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  SPEAKER_00: that argumentative, discussive learning,
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  SPEAKER_00: and poetic moves into the higher level
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  SPEAKER_00: and the ability to connect all of those
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  SPEAKER_00: and the desire to express what they're learning in a well-formed fashion.
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  SPEAKER_00: That really does model after the grammar level,
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  SPEAKER_00: the logic or dialectic level,
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  SPEAKER_00: and the rhetoric level in the pole parrot, hurt, and poetic.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the pole parrot stage, learning is easy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Reasoning is a little more difficult.
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  SPEAKER_00: We get that real literal thinking and The fact that they can know something
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  SPEAKER_00: but not necessarily fully grasp at that idea.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's the pole parrot or what we would say similar to the grammar level.
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  SPEAKER_00: The second step is the pert and that's known for their desire innately
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  SPEAKER_00: to contradict, to answer back.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're starting to identify the nuances in things that are being said.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's where the logic level comes in and teaching students at that level
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  SPEAKER_00: to think logically allows them to use that passion for argument
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  SPEAKER_00: in a well-structured format.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the poetic level, it's actually a little more self-centered,
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  SPEAKER_00: but with that desire to express their opinions
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  SPEAKER_00: and the desire to be independent.
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  SPEAKER_00: And those things are what push them to have
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  SPEAKER_00: to learn how to persuasively communicate.
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  SPEAKER_00: When you are looking at these three stages in correlation with the levels
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  SPEAKER_00: of grammar, logic, and rhetoric, what does that look like with subject matter then?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because there is facts that we have to have And that have to be fed
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  SPEAKER_00: into the students for them to be able to learn how to think about those things.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to spend some time looking at what Dorothy recommends on each level
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  SPEAKER_00: and also how does that play out in our 21st century classrooms.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the grammar level, she recommends Latin being taught.
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  SPEAKER_00: General studies support the fact
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  SPEAKER_00: that a child can learn a new language much easier
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  SPEAKER_00: than an adult can.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Latin fits into that same category.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've seen the little kindergartners do the Amo Amas Amat song chant
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  SPEAKER_00: and have it all memorized, but do they have a grasp of what they're saying? No.
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  SPEAKER_00: No.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's where you're giving them, as we say, the fodder for thinking and learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the upper stages, you're planting all of those seeds in the lower stages.
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  SPEAKER_00: So things like Latin with the chants that are easy to remember,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's perfect in that grammar level.
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  SPEAKER_00: Reading good literature, Where they're reading it, but they're also being read too.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they're enjoying it as good literature.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not especially in the lower levels, picking apart every little nuance.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's going to come later.
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  SPEAKER_00: But exposing them to the joy and beauty
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  SPEAKER_00: and wonder of good literature.
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  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that is crucial
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  SPEAKER_00: on the grammar school level is getting them solid
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  SPEAKER_00: in their recitation skills.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is building the groundwork for that rhetoric level.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's being established when it's still moldable for them,
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  SPEAKER_00: where they can learn the skills in an easy setting.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when it gets more difficult,
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  SPEAKER_00: they can refer back to things that are almost muscle memory for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the oral rhetoric and communication curriculum that I'm working
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  SPEAKER_00: on Will allow us to take it down
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  SPEAKER_00: to even the lowest grammar school so they have
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  SPEAKER_00: a running start when they are very much sponges for it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Another subject is history.
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  SPEAKER_00: Really points out the fact that what we're doing is we're giving them hooks
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  SPEAKER_00: and timelines and dates for them to hang future information on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Giving them a framework, but again,
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  SPEAKER_00: will they get the whole picture now?
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  SPEAKER_00: No.
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  SPEAKER_00: But that's okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are getting a framework and they're learning that history is more
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  SPEAKER_00: than just what's happening to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: It gives them a picture of the whole world around them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Dorothy Sayers also mentions geography being important at this end
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  SPEAKER_00: and teaching them visually so they can see what different things look like,
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  SPEAKER_00: different landforms, the map, the globe,
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  SPEAKER_00: helping it become a more visual representation for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Learning States and Capitals.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I have to pause here.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just read an article about a teacher in a high school
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  SPEAKER_00: after finding her students didn't know the names and weren't able to identify
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  SPEAKER_00: the 50 states.
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  SPEAKER_00: She required them to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the backlash this teacher got was amazing.
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  SPEAKER_00: How dare you make my child learn something so insignificant?
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  SPEAKER_00: I was completely dumbfounded because that is something
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  SPEAKER_00: that really should be learned and known.
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  SPEAKER_00: For them to be effective adults
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  SPEAKER_00: who can communicate and think about the world around them.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's what the classical model says.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's get it while they're little,
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  SPEAKER_00: while they can learn it in songs and they can play with maps and play with globes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now she approaches math
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  SPEAKER_00: with a somewhat different mindset than I've seen
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  SPEAKER_00: in classical curriculums of math.
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  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, I can see both sides, but she basically says,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's get the foundation solid, which I think all curriculums would agree on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Students should be able to add, subtract, multiply,
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  SPEAKER_00: Even dividing as they get into the upper grammar school.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it should all be on a very basic level.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some curriculums would disagree
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  SPEAKER_00: with that and saying let's introduce those higher levels when they're younger
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  SPEAKER_00: so they can start building a framework.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to go into that discussion.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think we can all agree that having those basics super solid is going
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  SPEAKER_00: to allow them to advance further.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the last subject that she mentions is Bible or Theology.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love how she refers to this as the mistress science.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is a quote directly from her because I think it does give us the breadth
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  SPEAKER_00: of how important teaching Bible and theology is,
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  SPEAKER_00: even on the grammar school level.
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  SPEAKER_00: She says, Without which, speaking of Bible theology,
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  SPEAKER_00: without which the whole educational structure
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  SPEAKER_00: will necessarily lack its final
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  SPEAKER_00: synthesis.
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  SPEAKER_00: So Bible and that the mistress science
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  SPEAKER_00: of Bible is what is tying everything together.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, the key to understanding this classical model
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  SPEAKER_00: is not seeing these individual things
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  SPEAKER_00: as subjects.
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  SPEAKER_00: Putting them all in boxes is the very modern view of learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: She says, instead, this is where the difference will be.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, a quote from her because she just really captures it well.
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  SPEAKER_00: The difference will be felt rather in the attitude
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  SPEAKER_00: of the teachers who must look
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  SPEAKER_00: upon all of these activities less as subjects in themselves
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  SPEAKER_00: than as a gathering together of material for use in the next part of the Trivium.
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  SPEAKER_00: With that, we have to have the mindset to say that It is okay
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  SPEAKER_00: if they do not fully understand everything they are learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: They can know without full understanding on the grammar level.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then, how do you tell when they move to the end of that pole parrot,
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  SPEAKER_00: that grammar level,
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  SPEAKER_00: Really how she describes it and having taught on that gap
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  SPEAKER_00: between the pole parrot and the pert, which was that fifth and sixth grade level,
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  SPEAKER_00: observation and memory fall second to their desire to discuss
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  SPEAKER_00: and to some degree argue comes more to the surface.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is crucial that they start
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  SPEAKER_00: with formal logic at that point.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really what you're doing is you're equipping them to be able to discuss and argue.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are learning the art of arguing correctly.
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  SPEAKER_00: All I can say is, whoa,
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  SPEAKER_00: imagine equipping junior hires to argue correctly.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's actually pretty scary when you think about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when you see it in action, it is awesome.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because as they move into that dialectic or logic, the PERT stage,
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  SPEAKER_00: they are going to still have those subjects, but again, not as individual boxes,
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  SPEAKER_00: grammar and They're actually now more focused on the use and the syntax
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  SPEAKER_00: and the analysis of what's being written.
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  SPEAKER_00: With writing, they're being required to be more precise and actually having
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  SPEAKER_00: to Narrowed down what they're saying.
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  SPEAKER_00: In reading, it's more keeping within the good literature.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's more of analysis, debate, and they actually,
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  SPEAKER_00: she points out the fact that dramatic Public performances are really very crucial
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  SPEAKER_00: on this level because it gives them a chance
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  SPEAKER_00: to live out especially quality literature
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  SPEAKER_00: on stage where it's not really themselves
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  SPEAKER_00: because it can sometimes be difficult to put themselves out there,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it allows them to learn vicariously through these characters.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mathematics is not seen as just another class.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is actually seen as part of logic.
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  SPEAKER_00: History is put in as theology
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  SPEAKER_00: and logic with an application of ethics and logic.
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  SPEAKER_00: Geography and sciences are along that same line.
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  SPEAKER_00: And really what you're doing is you're continuing to build what they have learned
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  SPEAKER_00: in that grammar level now becomes the playground for their logic.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the tools they are learning in logic are allowing them to step further
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  SPEAKER_00: into the information that they've been learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: Dorothy Sayers talked about a discussion that Students in this PERT
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  SPEAKER_00: or logic level had about rain in their town.
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  SPEAKER_00: It rained, but it was one of those rainstorms that only half of the road got wet.
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  SPEAKER_00: So could you actually say that it rained in town or did it rain on the town?
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  SPEAKER_00: And how much rain is needed for it to be able to say it had rained that day?
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  SPEAKER_00: This was a full out discussion the students had.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're now having students really dig in and have to think logically
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  SPEAKER_00: through because they're being challenged by their classmates to do
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  SPEAKER_00: that logical thinking.
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  SPEAKER_00: With this level, you have to be sure you're pointing out good and bad examples
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  SPEAKER_00: and all of the subjects are Linked together.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you will see it presented as an omnibus where the history
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  SPEAKER_00: and the literature and Bible are all linked together along
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  SPEAKER_00: with grammar and writing.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is the best way for students to learn on this level.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like how she says this as far
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  SPEAKER_00: as equipping this junior high level with logic.
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  SPEAKER_00: She says, quote, It will doubtless be objected that to encourage young persons
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  SPEAKER_00: at this pert age to browbeat, correct,
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  SPEAKER_00: and argue with their elders will rend them perfectly intolerable.
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  SPEAKER_00: My answer is that children of that age are intolerable anyhow,
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  SPEAKER_00: and that their natural argumentativeness may just as well be canonized
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  SPEAKER_00: to good purpose as allowed to run away into the sand.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are difficult.
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  SPEAKER_00: Might as well equip them to be difficult accurately and logically.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which brings us then into the final stage,
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  SPEAKER_00: which we would say rhetoric or as she refers to the poetic stage.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is the point where they are starting to really understand that they have
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot more to learn.
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  SPEAKER_00: Their imagination begins to reawaken because they're willing to look at things
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  SPEAKER_00: a little differently.
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  SPEAKER_00: Rather than how they were in that logic, that PERT age.
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  SPEAKER_00: At this point in their learning,
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  SPEAKER_00: things they learned by rote in grammar school and actually
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  SPEAKER_00: on the logic level are able to be re-examined with new insight.
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  SPEAKER_00: Things that they debated are able to be put together in different forms
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  SPEAKER_00: because they're better understanding
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  SPEAKER_00: the truth in what they see around them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Subjects at this point should be open for deeper analysis and appreciation,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just criticism, although Critical thinking of the different things is crucial
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  SPEAKER_00: as we saw and they saw in the logic level.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now we're looking more with appreciation, allowing them to specialize,
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  SPEAKER_00: but keeping them open and understanding that all learning is connected.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody who is really good in the math and sciences should also have to balance out
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: with the humanities.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the recommendation of having a final, as Dorothy calls it,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: leaving examination is
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: an amazing thing to see in practice.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Students will often spend the good part of their last year to year
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: and a half researching a topic
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: that is of interest to them that they are going
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: to present and persuade students On their view,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: what an amazing culmination of the grammar, logic,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: and rhetoric that they've had to learn in their educational process.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: The paper is researched and written
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: under the tutelage of teachers and instructors.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then the student presents it orally to a panel
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: and that panel then questions them
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: and they have to defend their thesis.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is awesome to see these young men
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: and women stand confidently before a panel
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: of experts, often including experts in the field of their topic,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: and get drilled on how and why they came to the conclusions they did.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is where we see the pinnacle of classical learning,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: in the ability to not just know the facts, grammar level,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: to logically think about those facts, logic level,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: and to be able to communicate them with logic effectively and persuasively.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: At this point, following the Middle Ages medieval model,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: a student would then potentially go on to university at the age of 16
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: because they would say that grammar level is 9 to 11,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: the dialectic logic level is 12 to 14,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: and the rhetoric level they would have had as 14 to 16.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in our educational system, that's not laid out that way.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But can you imagine a student equipped
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: as a thinker and as a communicator by the age
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: of 16, ready to go off and be on their own?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: We give them a cushion of a couple more years in the American educational system.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: How much more should they then be ready to do exactly that?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: To end, Dorothy talks about the fact that our educational capital has been depleted
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: and our roots have been forgotten.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: This was written in 1947.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she says
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: that the 300 years prior has been
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: fed this great educational foundation
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: of how learning is done.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are the tools of learning?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: We got to the point where that was no longer seen as important.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Prior to that, the sources were still in that classical tradition.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: The teachers, to a good point, were still in that classical tradition.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have been running on that educational capital since that time.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: For 300 and almost 80 years,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: we've been running on The same tank of gas
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: that is now depleted to just
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: about nothing.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: As Dorothy says, a tradition deeply rooted but never watered will still die.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: We are helping our students get these tools
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: of learning that have been lost.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Back in the day, the axe, the wedge, the hammer, the saw, the chisel, the plane,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: those were the tools that accomplished everything.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Today, as Dorothy says,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: we give the students a jig that allows them to do one job
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: and one job only.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, We're not training their hands.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're not training their eyes.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying, here's your jig, make it work.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Teachers are doing their best to try to keep the structure upright that is built
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: on the shifting sand.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Teachers are, as Dorothy says,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: doing for their pupils the work which the pupils themselves ought to do.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing the thinking.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing the communicating and we are not allowing
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: or expecting them to do any
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: of that for themselves.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is why we need
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: to regain the lost tools of learning.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that my friends is our biggest challenge.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you are all in classical ed,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: or you're just kind of curious,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: or even you just want to be a better teacher.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll stick around and join us for this next podcast.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: To get the latest episode, please sign up for the Leading to Wonder newsletter,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can subscribe to the podcast directly
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: To learn more about me and Leading to Wonder,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: you can visit my website at leading2wonder.com.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: No spaces.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And finally...
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Again, thank you for joining us.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Until next week, remember, as E.B.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: White said, or even for information regarding in -house
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: or virtual teacher training workshops.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to email me at Darlene
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: at leading2wonder .com Again,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: thank you for joining us until next week remember as E .B.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: White said Always be on the lookout for the presence of wonder.
• 33:15
  [music]