Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 4-6) (5/20/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 4-6) (5/20/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
0:02
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
0:05
where he left off with Bill Barr and his deposition
0:09
before Congress. Question during his speech shortly thereafter at the
0:15
Fraternal Order of Police conference on August twelfth, you said
0:18
that you learned of serious irregularities that were deeply concerning
0:22
at mcc answer, uh huh question do you recall what
0:26
the irregularities were? Answer? Well, one, you know, I was
0:30
wondering who the person was who made the decision to
0:33
take him off suicide watch. He had already attempted suicide,
0:36
and for all the reasons, I just stated it was
0:38
someone that had to be watched, and he was high,
0:41
very high profile, and he would be under pressure to
0:44
identify co conspirators. So I think that was one. The
0:48
fact that the checks, the thirty minute checks, were not performed,
0:51
and I would say that there was nothing apparently unusual
0:54
about that. This wasn't like people getting together and saying, okay, tonight,
0:59
we're not going to perform the watches. Apparently it was
1:02
pretty consistent that they failed to perform the checks. And thirdly,
1:06
they didn't place and very importantly that they didn't place
1:09
another prisoner in his cell. So I was referring to
1:12
those and you know, all these and the camera not
1:14
being on that. You know, that's obviously not necessarily directly
1:18
relevant to it, but you know, the same way the
1:21
others are. But it's still these screw ups happening at
1:23
the same time. Question, and that was going to be
1:27
my next question. You also described it as a perfect
1:29
storm of screw ups. Answer, uh huh question. I think
1:33
the exact quote that you're referencing the same things, the
1:36
checks not being done, the guards allegedly falsifying the records
1:40
regarding answer uh huh question, the checks, the camera's not working.
1:45
Also the corrections officers also didn't perform the institutional counts
1:49
that night. Answer right, question, those kinds of things, The
1:53
perfect storm of screw ups. Is that what you were
1:55
referring to, answer right, And that became clearer and clear
2:00
as things went by. But I started off with a
2:02
state of mind on this thing, like, you know, this
2:04
is going to take some explaining, so you know, and
2:07
I can see why people would be suspicious more than suspicious.
2:11
Question where the IG report came out after your time
2:15
as Attorney general in June of twenty twenty three, Bar Yes, question,
2:20
were you getting updates from the IG or just the FBI? Answer?
2:24
I think my best recollection is that initially I did
2:27
get some updates, you know, sort of orienting me to
2:30
some of the big facts and factors. But you know,
2:34
that sort of dribbled away, and certainly after I left
2:36
the department, I wasn't getting anything, but I don't, I can't.
2:40
Initially I got some information and that gradually ended. Question.
2:45
So the kind of steady stream, as much as it
2:47
can be described that way, was more from internal to
2:50
the department FBI BOP investigations that you were getting information from,
2:56
Bar Yeah, through staff, sometimes through BOP people, through my
3:00
own staff who they would talk to, sometimes directly. David Bowditch,
3:04
who who was the deputy FBI director and I had
3:07
a good relationship and we talked frequently, and even as
3:11
time went by during the rest of my tenure, when
3:13
something some you know, clickbait type article appeared about something
3:17
in the Epstein case, I would sometimes call him and say,
3:20
did you guys look at that? And you know, so
3:22
I was continuing to pick up information. Question you just mentioned,
3:26
David bow Disch Deputy Director of the FBI at the time.
3:30
It was reported that you instructed him to keep the
3:32
Deputy ag mister Rosen informed every three hours. Does that
3:36
sound accurate? Answer? Maybe on the first or second day? Question? Yeah,
3:41
it definitely bar cuts her off. I mean initially, did
3:44
I say every three hours? Question? That was what was reported,
3:48
but you know that that's what's reported. Answer, but wasn't
3:52
in my book. Question No answer, Okay, I told him
3:56
to keep the Deputy's office advised. You know, I think
3:58
probably every day. I doubt I said every three hours,
4:02
But if I did say it, that may have been
4:04
just for the first few days. Like we need to
4:06
know in real time because all these allegations and the
4:09
internet was going crazy. Question. Yeah, we just discussed some
4:14
of the I'll describe them as kind of security failures
4:17
at the time, more maybe caused by low staffing, low budget,
4:22
whatever the cause was. There were a number of failures
4:25
that occurred between August ninth and August tenth. We've discussed
4:28
that mister Epstein attempted suicide on July twenty third, twenty nineteen,
4:32
and you said you were you did you become aware
4:35
of that after his death or was it prior answer
4:39
become aware of what question his attempted suicide in July. Answer,
4:44
that's a good question. You know at some point I
4:47
obviously became aware of it. It's possible it happened before
4:50
his suicide that he was taken off you're saying question,
4:54
or that he answered no, I heard about his suicide
4:57
question No, that in July, and I mean suicide attempt.
5:02
Question You heard about the suicide attempt barr, Yes, question
5:06
prior to his eventual death. Answer yes, And I knew
5:10
he was put on I knew he was put on
5:12
suicide watch question I mean to that she's cut off
5:16
by bar. But I don't remember being told that he
5:18
was off the watch. I could have been told before
5:21
his suicide. My best recollection is that after his suicide,
5:25
I was certainly told about the kerfuffle over whether or
5:28
not he should be taken off watch question and that
5:31
kind of information flowing up to the Attorney General's office.
5:34
Was it primarily because mister Apstein was a very high
5:37
profile inmate? Answer that he attempted suicide question? Uh huh
5:42
answer yes, answer well, yes, question. The Attorney General wouldn't
5:48
be notified every time an inmate in BOP custody attempt suicide.
5:52
Answer not for an attempt. Question. We discussed him being
5:56
put on suicide Watch and kind of what that entailed,
5:59
and you just mentioned where I was going next, that
6:03
he was removed from watch after twenty four hours, which
6:05
I believe is the minimum amount of time that you're
6:08
allowed to be on suicide Watch. Answer. I can't remember
6:12
exactly how long he was on watch. I was under
6:15
the impression it was multiple days, but I don't know. Question.
6:20
I'll represent this and I can bring it into the record.
6:23
But he was on official suicide Watch for twenty four
6:25
hours and then stayed in that cell for about a
6:27
week but was no longer on constant monitoring, and then
6:31
he was moved back to the shoe Answer. I just
6:34
can't remember those details. Question, Okay, Bar, I know he
6:38
was on suicide Watch and then he was released from
6:41
suicide Watch. Question and you mentioned and I'll get your
6:45
thought a kind of kerfuffle around. Bar interrupts her. Yeah,
6:50
question whether or not to be removed from suicide Watch.
6:53
Can you get into more detail about that? Answer? Well,
6:57
what happened and people were filling me in on it
6:59
on this because it did not cast either a BOP
7:02
or the department in a good light that he was
7:05
that someone like this would attempt suicide and then not
7:08
be put on suicide Watch. So I was regaled about that,
7:12
you know, the arguments and the process. Question okay, and
7:16
your a call? Do your re call people advocating for
7:19
a longer suicide watch for him? Answer? I don't recall
7:22
the details. No question and then answer, you know, I
7:27
mean main Justice would not have been involved in that,
7:30
because you know, this was a pre trial MCC is
7:32
pre trial, and you know, generally the way a pre
7:35
trial suspect is handled is monitored by the US Attorney's
7:39
Office because they're the ones that have to report to
7:41
the judge when the judge's asking questions about you know,
7:45
and so I normally wouldn't have been brought into that
7:48
something of this profile. I wish I had been. Question
7:52
and then the IG kind of went into detail about
7:55
going on and taken off suicide Watch. Do you remember
7:58
any internal investigation after his death, whether about the decision
8:03
to take them off suicide Watch? Answer? Just the IGS,
8:07
And yeah, just the IGS. I don't know about the Bureau,
8:10
I can't remember. Question and FBI as a bureau in
8:13
that case. Answer yes, question Okay, I'm sorry, there's lots
8:17
of bureaus. Answer there's the only bureau question. And again,
8:23
all of this is the best of your recollection, So
8:25
if you don't recall the specifics, that's totally okay. After
8:29
he was put back in the special housing unit, according
8:31
to his roommate who was interviewed by the IG, he
8:34
was provided with extra betting in sheets, a perk that
8:37
not very many inmates got. Do you recall conversations about that? Answer?
8:42
I don't remember that question? Okay. Shifting to the security cameras,
8:47
which we talked about a little bit, but I want
8:49
to talk about the circumstances surrounding the cameras a little
8:52
bit more. There were eleven or so in or around
8:55
the shoe entrance and exits hallways, and we always discussed
8:59
the one pointing straight down L Block, and then we
9:03
watched the footage from the one pointing into the common area.
9:06
There was a DVR failure that resulted in these cameras
9:10
working in real time but not recording. Does that do
9:12
you recall that answer? It was my understanding that a
9:15
number of the cameras were not recording, although they were
9:18
still streaming live. Question and the DVR failure was for
9:22
a while, had been going on for a while, but
9:24
was discovered on August eighth. Does that sound Answer? I
9:28
didn't know that at the time, but subsequently found out.
9:32
Question and then kind of the process of getting it
9:34
back on answer getting it fixed, bar says question getting
9:38
it fixed took longer than expected. Answer yes, question is
9:42
that right? Answer? Yes, I was not aware of this
9:45
and that it was going on. I was aware shortly
9:48
after the suicide that the cameras had apparently failed, and
9:51
there was an effort that went on for I would
9:53
say more than one day. You know of the Bureau
9:56
going into with technical experts to try to still capture
9:59
some and go over the disc and stuff like that.
10:03
Question do you recall the explanation given for the failure
10:06
of the cameras? Answer no, I can't remember the details
10:09
of it, but I did monitor the technical people who
10:12
were working hard on trying to get it, and then
10:14
you know, I saw whatever that they had. Question do
10:18
you recall seeing any evidence of tampering with the DVR system?
10:22
Answer the bureau, I don't think believed it was tampered.
10:26
They felt it was there was a non malicious explanation
10:30
for it. Question and kind of generally in your discussion
10:33
with the FBI and others investigating this, did the lack
10:37
of camera recordings have any negative impact on the investigation? Answer?
10:42
You know, I mean it made the investigation harder obviously. Yeah. Question,
10:47
I mean if the camera down l block had been working,
10:49
it would have been an easier investigation. Answer. Yeah, now
10:52
it was working, and that's question, Yes, if it had
10:55
been recording. Answer, it wasn't. In I'm not sure, but
11:00
in my belief is that it was not general knowledge
11:03
that they were not recording, and people would have thought
11:06
that they were working. Mister O'Callahan. So when you spoke
11:09
about the camera failures in answering redacted's questions, the failures
11:13
were the recording bar that's then he's cut off. Question, Yes,
11:19
and I apologize. I'm trying to be very specific, and
11:22
that it was not recording to the DVR. They were
11:25
projecting on the security monitors in real time, just not
11:28
saving to the DVR. You talk about Another one of
11:31
these series of mistakes is the lack of a roommate
11:34
that after suicide Watch, the psych department said that he
11:37
needed to have a roommate at all times. Do you
11:39
recall conversations in that aftermath about why there wasn't a
11:43
roommate assigned to his cell? Answer? Yes, question what were
11:47
those conversations? Answer? I can't remember the details, but I
11:51
actually spent a lot of time on this issue and
11:54
had people walk me through, you know, why it was
11:56
being released, what's the process, Why did he have to
11:59
be released, Who was in charge of that, why did
12:02
he get released? And went through all that stuff, and
12:05
I went through it in detail. Question and didn't find
12:08
to your knowledge, didn't find anything malicious in the timing
12:11
of this release? Answer? No question. And you didn't find
12:14
anything malicious in that the mcc had not assigned Epstein
12:18
a new roommate. Answer. I think that was the judgment
12:21
of the FBI after a period of time, and then
12:24
that ultimately was the judgment of the IG as well.
12:27
That's my recollection. Question. Do you recall what kind of
12:32
indications were brought to you that it was just a
12:34
mistake to not assign him a roommate. Answer I can't
12:38
remember the details of it though. Who struck John? But
12:42
there were a lot of people involved who you know,
12:44
I told him this. No, he didn't tell me this.
12:47
You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
12:50
they didn't know something, And it was sort of it
12:53
was intricate, that's all I can remember. Question, yeah, answer,
12:57
But at the end of the day it appeared to
12:59
be screwed. All right, We're gonna wrap up right here
13:02
and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
13:04
gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
13:06
information that goes with this episode can be found in
13:09
the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
13:12
episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
13:16
up where we left off with the Bill Barr deposition
13:20
given before Congress. Question do you recall what kind of
13:25
indications were brought to you that this was just a
13:28
mistake to not assign him a roommate? Answer by bar.
13:32
I can't remember the details of it though, who struck John?
13:35
But there were a lot of people involved who you
13:37
know I told him this. No, he didn't tell me this.
13:40
You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
13:44
they didn't know something, And it was sort of it
13:47
was intricate. That's all I can remember. Question yeah, answer,
13:51
But at the end of the day, it appeared to
13:53
be screw ups. Question, and I think that's as you said.
13:57
That was the IG's conclusion too, that it was a
13:59
lot of word of mouth of this guy is getting
14:02
transferred and confusion regarding if it was just going to
14:05
trial or permanent transfer. Answer right, question that kind of stuff. Answer,
14:11
There were things like that, and then there's you know,
14:13
different correctional officer shifts and things and weather, things that
14:17
are important are communicated and all that kind of thing.
14:21
Question in the course of the investigation, did you ever
14:24
go to the MCC answer by bar no question. Did
14:28
you ever speak to any of the inmates that were
14:31
around mister Epstein at the time? Answer no. Question. Did
14:35
you speak to any of his roommates? Answer no, but
14:38
I believe they were interviewed and he was told the results. Question.
14:43
I have nine minutes left, so I'm going to do
14:46
the unmonitored phone call and then we'll go off the
14:48
record for this round. You had mentioned earlier and said
14:52
that the IG in its review that mister Epstein made
14:55
an unmonitored phone call the evening prior to being brought
14:58
back to his cell before be where he was before
15:01
his death on the tenth do you recall being made
15:03
aware of that after the fact? Answer after a suicide? Question?
15:07
Uh huh bar yes question? And were you briefed regarding
15:11
what happened with the call? Bar along the way. My
15:15
recollection is the bureau spent time trying to figure out
15:18
who was the recipient and trying to track that person down.
15:22
Question and is it answer? And you know, eventually the
15:26
only thing I remember it was someone in Belarusha. I
15:29
think that's my best recollection question, but with a New
15:33
York City area code answer, I don't remember the details.
15:36
Question Okay, where are or two the best of your knowledge,
15:40
what are the policies for inmates making phone calls to
15:43
non attorneys? Answer? You know, I did ask the FBI
15:47
what the call was about, what did people? What did
15:50
she say? And all that kind of thing. So my
15:52
understanding was that the calls like that had to be
15:55
monitored and you couldn't make an unmonitored call unless there
15:59
was a reason like my lawyer is going to I'm
16:02
talking to my lawyer, et cetera. Question And in addition
16:05
to being monitored by a corrections officer, these calls are
16:08
usually recorded answer yes, question is that correct? Answer? Yes? Question?
16:14
Was this call recorded? Answer? No, not that I'm aware of. Question.
16:20
The IG did review, and I believe the Southern District
16:22
of New York eventually did as well, where individual won
16:26
the recipient of the call or her attorney gave a
16:28
proffer to the Southern District of New York. Are you
16:31
aware of that? Answer? I can't remember. I remember asking.
16:35
I think it was boditch what we had discovered about
16:39
the call? Question The profet described the call of mister
16:42
Epstein saying like there is going to be tough times,
16:45
I love you, I'm sorry, that kind of those kinds
16:48
of language. Do you recall hearing that kind of read
16:51
out of the call? Answer? I don't recall specifics, but
16:54
I thought the call was consistent with saying goodbye to someone,
16:57
but not telling them you're about to commit suicide. Question
17:01
did they ever discover the identity of the recipient? Answer?
17:05
I'm not sure, and I couldn't say. By the way,
17:07
at that point we had already made up his mind
17:10
as to exactly when he was going to do it.
17:13
But to me, it was consistent with it. I'm sorry,
17:16
what was your question? Question? Did they ever discover the
17:20
identity of the recipient? Of the phone call. Answer. I
17:23
believe they did. That's my best recollection question. Do you
17:27
recall who it was? Answer? No question. I'll ask just
17:31
about one person. Do you recall if it was Glenn Maxwell? Answer?
17:35
It was not. It was not her question it was not.
17:38
Answer no, redacted. That's a good spot. We can go
17:44
off the record. Then they go to recess. Now they're
17:47
back on the record. Oh callahan, we're on the record.
17:50
We're on the record, O'Callahan, which is Barr's lawyer. So
17:54
just before we start with your questions, Attorney General Barr
17:57
just wanted to clarify two points from the pro testimony.
18:01
It makes sense to do it now and obviously won't
18:04
count against your time, if that's okay, redacted, Yeah, absolutely,
18:09
o callahan. Okay, Bar So, despite your best efforts to
18:13
orient me to this floorplan, O'Callahan, he's referring to the
18:16
schematic Exhibit three. Bar I was completely turned around on
18:21
it and for some reason was discussing it as if
18:23
the camera was to the lower left instead of where
18:26
it is was, which was to the upper right. And
18:30
as I said, the main entrance would be the lower
18:32
right of the camera scene and so the door that
18:35
council showed me at the far end of this of
18:38
the common area is a principal entrance, the primary entrance
18:41
to the shoe, Oh Callahan. So just the witness is
18:45
indicating the black rectangular box next to the red portion
18:49
of mister Epstein sell on the schematic. Barr. The other
18:53
thing is that I don't have specific recollection of the
18:56
exact time I found out about being taken off of
18:59
suicide Watch, but to the best of my recollection, it
19:04
was after his suicide, O Callahan. Those are the two
19:07
points redacted. Thank you. Examination begins again by redacted question
19:14
mister Barr, Good morning. I'm going to proceed chronologically, and
19:17
then doing so, I'm going to cover some of the
19:19
topics that my majority colleagues did in a previous round,
19:23
not to make you repeat yourself, but just to follow
19:25
up on some issues and ensure we have a clear record.
19:29
And I'll start with the Florida investigation, that is the
19:32
investigation into mister Epstein by the US Attorney's Office for
19:35
the Southern District of Florida. When did you become aware
19:39
of that investigation? Answer? With everyone else according to the
19:43
papers while it was going on, Question at the time.
19:46
It was the questions interrupted by Barr. Answer when there
19:52
was when there was a big outburst about a special
19:54
deal and all that kind of stuff. Question so roughly
19:58
in the two thousand and seven time frame, Answer whenever
20:01
it became public that there was a plea agreement. Question
20:04
and do you recall how you became aware of it, Barr?
20:07
The newspaper question newspapers Just a question about the resolution
20:12
of that investigation. As I'm sure you're aware, mister Epstein
20:15
entered into a non prosecution agreement with the US Attorney's
20:19
Office in September of two thousand and seven. Among other things,
20:23
the agreement bound the United States not to quote institute
20:27
any criminal charges against any potential co conspirators of Epstein unquote.
20:32
Are you familiar with that agreement, mister O'Callahan, So hold on,
20:36
excuse me. Attorney General Barr was under subpoena, and the
20:39
scope of the cover letter was about the investigation by
20:42
the Department of Justice into Epstein and Maxwell while he
20:45
was Attorney General. You're asking about information that he was
20:48
not Attorney general, and so I think it's beyond the
20:51
scope of what the subpoena called for. Redacted. I don't
20:55
think I would agree with that scope, and I think
20:57
that the proceeding here today are focused on the das's
21:00
investigation concerning mister Epstein generally, and the question I'm asking
21:04
now goes to mister Barr's perspective based on his experience
21:08
as Attorney General O Callahan which time redacted, which time? Well,
21:13
experience as Attorney general both times. Question just based on
21:18
your professional perspective, Sir, have you seen a provision in
21:21
a plea agreement that bound the United States not to
21:24
pursue co conspirators that were unknown at the time the
21:27
agreement was entered into Answer? I don't recall having any
21:31
inside information or information that wasn't publicly available about those events,
21:36
about the investigation in Florida and its ultimate the ultimate
21:39
Plea agreement. To the best of my recollection, I knew
21:42
what I saw in the papers. I remember at the
21:45
time having a reaction because there was a hubbub about it.
21:49
I remember looking or thinking about it and delving a
21:52
little bit into it. But what happened before I was
21:54
Attorney General of the second time? Question the second time,
21:58
during either of your tenures as Attorney General, have you
22:01
ever seen a comparable provision that had the same effect. Again, answer,
22:05
during the time I was Attorney General. I don't recall
22:08
seeing a comparable provision. I think the thing that I
22:11
didn't like about it was that it took the victim's
22:15
elocution rights, and I thought that was pretty aggressive and
22:19
I thought it was vulnerable. So that's just my own
22:22
thinking when I saw it. Question. I appreciate that. Just
22:26
to ask you, miss Crockett, can I jump in really
22:28
quickly redacted? Yeah, Miss Crockett, I'm sorry. I just got
22:33
to go back to what was just brought up. And
22:36
during your tenure, during either time you were Attorney general,
22:39
do you recall there ever being a scenario that you
22:42
authorized that was similar that disallowed the prosecution of co
22:46
conspirators in this type of plead deal. Barr. You know,
22:49
I can't specifically remember things that were that I approved,
22:53
but I'm not sure that provision sticks out to me
22:55
as odd Crockett, Okay, but you can't recall ever approved
23:00
anything like that before, right the witness, Right Crockett, thank you?
23:04
Back to redacted question. There was discussion during the previous
23:09
round of chain of communication with DOJ and between Maine
23:12
Justice and US Attorney's Office. I like to ask you
23:16
about communication between DOJ and the White House, and again
23:20
this is focused on both of your tenures as Attorney General.
23:24
How common was it, generally speaking for you to communicate
23:28
directly with the President about investigations that the DOJ was handling.
23:32
Barr Well, it depends what the investigation was about on Epstein.
23:38
I only remember two conversations I had with the President. Question, so,
23:41
I could you tell us about those two conversations. Answer?
23:44
One was when I heard about the suicide, I called
23:47
them up and said, you better brace for this, and
23:50
I told them the words to the effect, and I
23:52
told them about it, and I told them we were
23:54
going to be investigating it very vigorously. And the second one,
23:58
I can't say for sure whether it happened before his
24:01
suicide during meaning around the time of his arrest, or
24:04
whether it happened after his suicide during the continued developments there.
24:08
But the topic of Epstein came up in our conversation.
24:12
Multiple people were there and sort of the news. It
24:15
was commented on being the news of the day, and
24:17
the President said something to the effect that he had
24:20
broken off with Epstein long ago, and that he had
24:22
actually pushed him out of mar A Lago. Question. Okay,
24:27
And just to clarify, those were both conversations with President Trump. Answer,
24:32
both involved President Trump. Yeah, those are the only two
24:35
conversations I can remember where Epstein came up with the
24:38
president question. And when you say that you told the
24:42
president who the news of the suicide would affect? What
24:45
did you mean by that answer? Who would affect? Did
24:48
I say that question? I'm sorry, unless I'm misunderstanding your characterization. Answer,
24:54
I didn't mean to say that question, Okay. Answer I said,
24:57
I told him that he committed suicide and that he
25:00
suspected it was apparently suicide. And he had the same
25:03
reaction I did, which was, how the hell did that happen?
25:06
He's in federal custody and the last everyone knew he
25:09
was being carefully watched precisely for that reason. And I
25:12
think I conveyed to him that it was appalling and
25:15
that we were going to investigate it vigorously, and he
25:18
had the same reaction I did, which is going to
25:21
certainly generate a lot of conspiracy theories. These are not
25:25
his exact words, but that's what I remember about the conversation.
25:28
Being effectively maybe words to that effect. Yeah. Question, did
25:32
President Trump say anything about the conversation? Answer by Bar
25:37
That's all I can recall. Question, So, just to tie
25:40
this all together, would I be correct in understanding that
25:43
prior to mister Epstein's suicide you did not communicate directly
25:46
with President Trump in connection with the Epstein investigation. Answer?
25:50
I said that one conversation I recall could have happened
25:53
before his suicide, around the time of his arrest, but
25:56
my best recollection is it happened later. But those are
25:59
the only two conversations I can remember having with the
26:02
President directly about Epstein. Mister O'Callahan about Epstein generally, not
26:07
the Epstein investigation. Barr, Right, yeah, all right, folks, we're
26:12
gonna wrap up right here, and in the next episode,
26:14
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of
26:17
the information that goes with this episode can be found
26:20
in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to
26:23
another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
26:27
gonna pick up where we left off with Bill Barr
26:29
and his deposition given to Congress. Question shifting back to
26:34
Florida's investigation, it's my understanding that you accused yourself during
26:38
your second tenure as Attorney General from DJ's review of
26:42
that prosecution and plea agreement. Is that correct? Answer? No,
26:47
I didn't recuse myself. I think in my confirmation hearing
26:50
I put that I didn't want to cross that bridge
26:53
because I needed to console people about the issue, and
26:55
I wasn't sure of the timing of things, and so
26:58
you know when things occurred, and so later on when
27:01
it became an issue, I had it reviewed and got
27:04
the advice of the ethics people in the DOJ, and
27:08
I did not recuse myself. Question did not recuse yourself? Answer? Yes,
27:13
question and this is the Florida investigation. Answer No, it
27:17
was to that he's cut off the Southern District of
27:21
New York investigation. Answer. That's the only thing that I
27:24
was aware of going on when I was there. Question Okay,
27:28
So to clarify, did you have any involvement at all
27:31
in the DJ's review of the Florida investigation that took
27:34
place during your second tenure. Answer? I don't recall playing
27:37
a role in that review in terms of whether it
27:41
was proper. I didn't play a role in that review.
27:43
I think there was discussion. When New York was moving
27:46
forward with the prosecution, people wanted to be careful that
27:49
they didn't run a foul of any of the provisions
27:52
in that agreement. Question, and I can be more specific.
27:56
So it's my understanding that the DOJ's Office of National
28:00
Responsibility undertook an investigation in twenty nineteen into the circumstances
28:06
surrounding the Florida Plea deal. Answer right, I wasn't hovering
28:10
over that or involved in that. I learned about their conclusions,
28:13
you know, from when they concluded when they reached them.
28:16
Question after they issued the report. Answer I can't remember
28:20
exactly when. At some point I learned that OPR was
28:23
saying that it was improper. Question have you ever discussed
28:27
the Epstein investigation generally with mister Acosta? Answer? I don't
28:31
recall discussions of the investigation. I may have around that
28:35
there was a lot of publicity around the fact that
28:37
he might be pushed out of the administration. I may
28:41
have expressed commiseration with them that he was facing that
28:43
kind of public challenge, but I didn't discuss the investigation.
28:47
Question what was your understanding of the reason that he
28:51
was pushed out of the administration. Answer, I don't know.
28:54
I think he resigned. I think he resigned, So my
28:56
understanding was he resigned so this didn't continent, this issue
29:01
didn't continue to hand the administration. That was my recollection
29:04
of what happened. Question And to your understanding, did he
29:08
resign on his own initiative or was he under pressure
29:11
from the White House? Answer? I don't know. I think
29:14
it was explained as him stepping down to avoid continued problems,
29:18
but I don't know what happened behind the scenes. With
29:22
respect to the report that OPR issued, you mentioned that
29:25
you took issue with, as I understood it, mister Acosta's
29:28
failure to involve the victims in the process. Answer, Well,
29:32
my recollection and I haven't looked at this, but my
29:35
recollection is that part of it ended up not allowing
29:38
the victims to have their say, which is under federal
29:41
statute they have the right to do. That's my recollection
29:44
of the issue, and so I thought that I think
29:47
it's wrong not to let the victims have their say.
29:50
And here I also thought it was legal vulnerability, But
29:53
that was just me as a private citizen saying, well, gee, wow, question,
29:58
I'll represent to you the report also concluded that mister
30:02
Acosta's decision to resolve the federal investigation through the NPA
30:06
constituted poor judgment in opr's words, among other things, by
30:11
resolving the federal investigation before significant investigative steps were completed.
30:17
Is that consistent with your understanding? Answer right now, I
30:20
don't have a recollection of that question. Mister Acosta reportedly
30:24
is stated that he was told that Jeffrey Epstein quote
30:27
belongs to intelligence and to leave it alone unquote. Are
30:30
you aware of mister Acosta saying that? Answer no other
30:34
than what's been reported in articles over the years. Question
30:38
do you have any knowledge of mister Epstein having any
30:40
ties to any intelligence agency? Answer no question, or of
30:45
mister Acosta being told answer, I don't know about any ties.
30:49
I have no reason to believe he was working for
30:51
the CIA or any intelligence agency, And I'm dubious about
30:54
claims like that. Now. Many American businessmen who have foreign
30:58
contacts sometimes will talk talk to intelligence agencies to provide
31:02
information to them, and the CIA has a unit that
31:05
goes around and talks to people who are well connected
31:08
and ask some questions. So my supposition when I saw
31:11
things about him being connected to US intelligence. Maybe like
31:15
other businessmen, he talks to them, but this is not
31:18
in my opinion based on what I saw, I didn't
31:21
think it was an intelligence operation, and I never received
31:24
any information that led me to believe that. Question. Do
31:28
you have any idea why mister Acosta would suggest that
31:30
it was? Answer? I don't know he did. Whether he did,
31:34
wasn't that something attributed something to him? Question that's his
31:38
reported statement. Answer? Okay. Question I'll shift gears now and
31:43
move on to the Southern District of New York's investigation,
31:46
and for the sake of brevity, if it's okay with you,
31:48
I'll refer to Southern District of New York as SDNY. Answer. Sure,
31:53
That's how I would have refer to it. Question. I
31:56
understand you mentioned earlier that you a determination was made
31:59
that you would not recuse yourself from the SDNY investigation,
32:04
and just to make sure my understanding is clear, that
32:06
was based on input from the Ethics Office at DOJ.
32:10
Answer that's my recollection. Yeah. Question okay. And do you
32:14
recall the rationale for concluding that your continued involvement was
32:18
consistent with ethics regulations? Answer? Because I didn't really have
32:22
a connection. I wasn't involved in the first investigation. Question
32:26
there has been mentioned in the press about your father's
32:29
role as the head master of Dalton School in New York.
32:32
Was that a consideration in the Ethics Office analysis? Answer? Actually,
32:38
I don't even think. I don't know whether I was
32:40
aware of that at the time. Obviously not, It's not
32:42
pertinent at all. Question. You spoke generally during the previous
32:46
round about the nature and extent of your involvement in
32:49
the SDNY investigation. I'd like to just delve into that
32:53
in a bit more detail if I could. To begin with,
32:56
could you describe the allocation of responsibility between yourself and
33:00
US Attorney Berman? Answer? Well, the US Attorney all US
33:04
attorneys are responsible for pursuing investigations and making prosecutorial judgments. Question. Yeah,
33:11
just to clarify, I don't mean generally operationally within DJ
33:15
I'm speaking specifically with respect to the Epstein investigation. Barr Well,
33:21
this was a case that was within his purview. He
33:24
had obviously approved or was involved in, either its launching
33:28
or continued under him, and so he was responsible for
33:31
conducting the investigation and making the initial prosecutorial judgments. Also,
33:37
under the department rules that if he believes there is
33:40
a basis for investigating someone who is a prominent person
33:43
or a senior political official or whatever, he is supposed
33:46
to send an urgent report to my attention. Question what
33:51
was the extent during the sdnwise investigation of your interaction
33:55
with FBI agents? Answer? During the investigation of it? Question yes,
34:00
Epstein investigation. Answer. I would say agents up in New York,
34:04
but people at headquarters. After the suicide, I told the
34:08
headquarters to make sure that they flooded the zone. That is,
34:11
they provided the investigative office, which was the New York
34:15
FBI office, all the resources necessary and made sure that
34:18
the federal investigation was being done. And Bodich oversaw he's
34:23
a deputy in Washington. The actual investigation was carried out
34:27
by New York agents. Most of it, I think by
34:29
New York agents. I didn't have contact with people up
34:32
in New York the agents up in New York. Question
34:35
and part bar cuts are off. It's possible that when
34:39
I was being briefed, at some point they would put
34:42
someone like that on the line to explain something to me.
34:45
But I didn't seek out contacts with people and the
34:47
people the FBI made available to me. Question within the
34:51
FBI headquarters, apart for mister Bodich, was there anyone else
34:55
who communicated with directly about the investigation? Answer FBI question Yes, answer,
35:02
I'm trying to remember who was at the head of
35:04
Criminal Division. I don't recall anyone other than Boditch. I
35:07
think I may have had conversations with Chris Ray about it,
35:10
sort of what a mess this thing was. Question And
35:14
within the SDN, why did you ever communicate directly with
35:17
any of the line prosecutors? Answer no, not that I recall.
35:21
Question and you spoke in the previous round. As I
35:24
understood about being briefed by the DAG at the regular
35:28
meetings that were held at Main Justice, you were briefed
35:31
by US Attorney Berman as well. Answer, you know, I
35:34
think I probably had conversations with Berman, a general conversation,
35:38
but I think to the extent that communicated or his
35:41
people communicated, it would have been more to the Deputy's office,
35:45
and then I would have been told about it. Question
35:49
when did your conversation with mister Berman take place? Barr?
35:53
You know, I can't say for sure when that was.
35:56
All I know is that I became aware of the investigation.
35:59
I became aware that there were people that were looking
36:01
at the issue of whether or not it would be
36:03
permitted under to what extent there are limitations imposed by
36:07
Florida Plea Agreement, things like that. And I remember my
36:11
best recollection is I had conversations with them after the
36:14
suicide where he strongly assured me and made it clear
36:18
that this was a priority of the office and that
36:20
they would continue pushing ahead. Question and did you ever
36:24
discuss with mister Berman any of the conversations you had
36:27
with President Trump? Answer no, not that I can recall.
36:31
Question and again, in terms of the investigative process, were
36:35
you involved at all in the decision surrounding what charges
36:38
to bring before the grand jury against mister Epstein? Answer no.
36:43
Question did you review the indictment? Answer I can't recall
36:46
reviewing the indictment. I might have been shown it. Question
36:50
were you to that he cuts her off, but I
36:53
don't recall it. Question were you briefed regarding the specific
36:57
charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer? I think I
37:02
was told what they were. I don't recall how deep
37:04
the conversation was. Question was there ever any disagreement between
37:08
you and SDNY over who to charge or what charges
37:11
to bring? Answer? I don't remember one. Answer you mean
37:17
the first time around the initial indictment against Epstein in
37:20
July O'Callahan. Maybe a timeframe would help the witness July O'Callahan,
37:26
twenty nineteen. Are we talking twenty nineteen? Redacted? Yes, witness okay.
37:34
Question to your knowledge? Did anyone else that mayin justice
37:37
disagree with the charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer?
37:41
I don't recall any disagreement. Question in the two conversations
37:46
you had with President Trump, did the President express any
37:49
views on the investigation? Answer not that I can recall.
37:53
No question. Did he ever give you any instruction with
37:56
respect to it? Answer no question, or exprest any preference?
38:01
Answer no question with respect to the investigation? Answer no
38:07
question to your knowledge? Did anyone else at the DOJ
38:10
discuss the sdn Y investigation with anyone in the White House?
38:14
Answer not, to my knowledge. Question the FBI's investigation. Did
38:19
that continue post indictment? Answer the FBI's investigation of the suicide.
38:24
Question the FBI's investigation into mister Epstein's crimes. Barr My
38:29
understanding is that the investigation was going forward because they
38:33
were at the stage looking for people who were complicit
38:37
in the trafficking, either by facilitating it or by essentially
38:40
exploiting the victims. Question and do you know how long
38:43
the FBI's investigation continued. Answer? I think it continued throughout
38:48
my tenure. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up
38:51
right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
38:53
we're going to pick up where we left off. All
38:56
of the information that goes with this episode can be
38:58
found in the descript can box