Latest / Math Therapy / The spiritual side of math w/ Francis Su

Transcript

The spiritual side of math w/ Francis Su · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  Francis Su: It's kind of like learning your musical scales, if you want to play a concerto.
• 0:06
  Francis Su: You don't learn music to start learning to play scales.
• 0:09
  Francis Su: People put the emphasis on thinking about math as learning scales, versus listening to a symphony.
• 0:15
  Francis Su: I just want people to experience the symphony, even if they don't end up becoming professional musicians.
• 0:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.
• 0:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, let me ask you guys this.
• 0:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: What comes to mind when you hear the words mathematics for human flourishing?
• 0:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like really think about it.
• 0:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: "Mathematics for Human Flourishing".
• 1:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a beautiful sentiment.
• 1:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it is also the title of an incredible book by Dr.
• 1:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Francis Su and the reason I had to have him on the podcast.
• 1:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I devoured that book cover to cover and was so deeply moved by the way he views mathematics, and the awe he believes it could inspire in our students.
• 1:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just, I can't wait for you guys to hear him explain how finding the beauty and wonder in math can make it possible for all of us to truly flourish as humans.
• 1:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Francis, welcome to the podcast! I'm so excited to have you.
• 1:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a lot I want to talk to you about.
• 1:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Truthfully, I have you on the podcast as like a fan, like I read your book and I was like, I'm a huge fan.
• 1:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, as I was like, Oh, I'm having him on the podcast, I should like just do a little more research, I started kind of like looking into you and, I found the reflection questions you had written for your book and that actually opened up like a whole new thing in me.
• 1:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so, I actually have so many questions just about the first thing I saw on your website, which was that you call yourself a mathematical explorer.
• 2:04
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 2:04
  Francis Su: Well, I mean, I guess one of the, the ways that I think about math, I think is a very important aspect of math is the exploratory nature of math, which a lot of people don't see.
• 2:15
  Francis Su: And, I could call myself a mathematician, but for some people, when they hear that term, they think professional mathematician who does research, for instance, like, one set of people like college professors think mathematician is just someone who does mathematical research, but maybe other people who are familiar with what a mathematician does, who knows what they think about when they think about a mathematician?
• 2:39
  Francis Su: And so I prefer to use the term mathematical explorer, because I think that maybe is a little more accessible.
• 2:45
  Francis Su: People don't have preconceived notions about what it means to be a mathematician.
• 2:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, yeah, I would say that if you tell anyone you're a mathematician, like, no one other than a mathematician is going to think anything good.
• 2:58
  Francis Su: Yes, yes.
• 2:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's not, that's not a good vibe.
• 3:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also, do you know, um, Deborah Peart at all, and like the work she does around the term"mather"?
• 3:06
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 3:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like making me think about that.
• 3:09
  Francis Su: Yes, yeah, I mean I appreciate all these reframings that help people get out of the usual mode when they think about a particular word.
• 3:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, why do you think that the word mathematician has such a bad reputation?
• 3:24
  Francis Su: That's a great question.
• 3:26
  Francis Su: I think when people think of mathematician, they think of, a reclusive hermit who works on, you know, difficult problem for many years and avoids people.
• 3:35
  Francis Su: And, you know, to some extent that narrative is, is sometimes fed by media, right.
• 3:40
  Francis Su: Or fed by stereotypes that people have around who can be a mathematician, and uh, what they do.
• 3:47
  Francis Su: And of course you hear these stories about, you know, these very, very hard centuries old problems that someone's been working on, in silence until they suddenly solve it, right?
• 3:58
  Francis Su: Like, that's one narrative that often gets press, but it's maybe not the most common narrative or the way that we do math.
• 4:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, yeah, my whole master's thesis, it, well, it's called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, and it was entirely about media representations of mathematicians, especially for women, and how it like, turns them off the subject entirely, because who would be like, ooh, you know what I want to do?
• 4:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want to be a recluse and, like, never have a romantic relationship and have no friends, but, like, all do math.
• 4:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know,
• 4:28
  Francis Su: Right.
• 4:29
  Francis Su: That's right.
• 4:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it's, it's crazy because I wrote it in 2010, and you would think so much has changed, but like still, you're hard pressed to find, a representation of a mathematician that doesn't fit into one of these tropes.
• 4:42
  Francis Su: Yes,
• 4:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, think about the Queen's Gambit.
• 4:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you watch that?
• 4:46
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 4:47
  Francis Su: I love that.
• 4:48
  Francis Su: I love that series.
• 4:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, but what did you think of, what was her name?
• 4:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: The main character?
• 4:54
  Francis Su: I, yeah, I don't remember her name.
• 4:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, whatever, but what did you think of her?
• 4:57
  Francis Su: Well, I mean, there are some ways in which her character broke stereotypes, right?
• 5:01
  Francis Su: This is maybe for the listeners.
• 5:03
  Francis Su: The main character is a girl who plays chess and does a lot of mathematical thinking, but she has a very difficult life and, the series tries to unpack a little bit about her journey into chess.
• 5:17
  Francis Su: And it's been a little while since I watched it, so maybe you should start with what you thought was recycling old tropes.
• 5:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just think it's interesting.
• 5:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause when I watched it, I was like, yes, a woman who plays chess..
• 5:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I started looking at it as like, the full picture.
• 5:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, but hold on a second.
• 5:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: What did she have to do to be a great mathematical thinker?
• 5:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, she had all of these problems.
• 5:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: She had to do all of these drugs.
• 5:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: They kind of made it seem like she had like severe mental health issues.
• 5:43
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 5:43
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 5:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 5:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I was like, wait, this is just the same trope now of being like, the only way you can be good at math is if there's something like wrong with you in every
• 5:51
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 5:52
  Francis Su: No, that's very true.
• 5:53
  Francis Su: That's very true.
• 5:54
  Francis Su: Yeah, I mean that's similar to Good Will Hunting, right?
• 5:56
  Francis Su: Like, Good Will Hunting is, it follows that.
• 5:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: A Beautiful Mind.
• 6:00
  Francis Su: Yes, Beautiful Mind, um, to some extent Jeff Goldblum, uh, in, uh, uh, Jurassic Park, is this sort of crazy mathematician who is a little, you know, he's a little weird in some sense and, yeah, all these things sort of feed into that, that stereotype.
• 6:17
  Francis Su: But there are ways which I appreciated Queen's Gambit, they do a pretty good job of, helping people see what it means to visualize math or visualize chess, like doing chess on the ceiling.
• 6:30
  Francis Su: I, I love some of those scenes.
• 6:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I loved that.
• 6:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and like, so I run a math tutoring center.
• 6:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: We tutor math, and literally, I'm not kidding, after that came out, I had at least 10 female students being like, do you guys tutor chess?
• 6:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it worked in a way, right?
• 6:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it, it got women, like a ton of my teenage students, like getting into chess.
• 6:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, okay.
• 6:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, anyway, so Mathematical Explorer it is, and that's what we're using from now on because it sounds way cooler and way more fun.
• 6:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think really touches on that exploratory nature of what mathematics could be.
• 6:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: This thing filled with like curiosity.
• 7:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what you talk about is mathematics for human flourishing.
• 7:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's the title of your book and that's what it's about.
• 7:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I guess my first question is like, what is human flourishing to you?
• 7:15
  Francis Su: Yeah, the way I like to think about human flourishing is it's both a state of being and doing and so the being aspect is it's beyond happiness.
• 7:27
  Francis Su: It's a beyond joy.
• 7:29
  Francis Su: In fact, you could be going through very difficult circumstances and still be flourishing in those circumstances.
• 7:36
  Francis Su: It's a state of living and acting in accordance with, living to your fullest potential, maybe it's one way of putting it.
• 7:44
  Francis Su: And acting in accordance with your values.
• 7:49
  Francis Su: It's a holistic state of being.
• 7:52
  Francis Su: I mean, one way of thinking about it is, is the way the ancient Greeks thought about human flourishing, right?
• 7:58
  Francis Su: It's the ultimate good in life in some sense, right?
• 8:00
  Francis Su: It's the highest good is one in which you are, maybe in, in modern parlance, it's, you're in a state of flow and that's the way some people in the psychology literature talk about being in flow, right?
• 8:12
  Francis Su: You are so, absorbed or engrossed in, in this case, it could be maybe a, solving a problem, but, generally speaking, outside the mathematical context, it's um, I, I hate to use this term"living your best life" because that also sounds like it has something to do with
• 8:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So YOLO.
• 8:29
  Francis Su: circumstances.
• 8:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: It means YOLO.
• 8:31
  Francis Su: Yes,
• 8:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: You could have titled your book, Mathematics for YOLO.
• 8:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, cool.
• 8:36
  Francis Su: But let me give you an example.
• 8:37
  Francis Su: I mean, like, for instance, when my, um, my mother was dying, that's, that, that's a difficult situation, right?
• 8:45
  Francis Su: But, you know, sometimes when you have difficult situations you're living through, you can still, you know, that, that started lots of conversations, hard conversations, good conversations, rich conversations.
• 8:58
  Francis Su: And somehow you're like, oh, really in the moment, you are really loving someone through a difficult time, that could also be a state of human flourishing.
• 9:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's so crazy because, first of all, you said it so beautifully.
• 9:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, I feel like we're, I use different words, but to me, this sounds like you're talking about living in alignment, really, with like your values, whatever that is.
• 9:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it feels really spiritual to me in the sense that it, like, has nothing to do with the material world, it's something so internal, but, so you're on a podcast called Math Therapy, and my whole, thing really is the idea that, like, yes, it's very cool to learn math and mathematical thinking and all of that, but to me, the skills students have the capacity to learn in math class are ones that I really believe can lead them to a lifetime of joy.
• 9:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: In, I always say, helping students break myth around math ability that have been like put on them can help lead them to a place where they truly believe they're capable of anything.
• 9:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can think of no greater, more noble cause than to help young people discover how to do that.
• 10:03
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 10:04
  Francis Su: Right.
• 10:05
  Francis Su: Right.
• 10:05
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Francis Su: I mean, living life is hard.
• 10:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's hard.
• 10:08
  Francis Su: It's hard, and how do we, how do we move through the world?
• 10:13
  Francis Su: You know, I think mathematics certainly helps people, to see the world more clearly and move through it in ways that if you don't have that experience, even having the experience of beauty in seeing mathematics, that's to our detriment, right?
• 10:28
  Francis Su: That's, there's something we're missing by, not experiencing some of those things.
• 10:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: So how do you tie those ideas of human flourishing, this beautiful incredible thing that it'd be so great for every human to be able to like actualize, and doing that through mathematics?
• 10:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like tie those together for me.
• 10:48
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 10:48
  Francis Su: Uh, well, I guess the way that I try to do that in the book is to connect with everybody's experience of, of having deep human desires, right?
• 10:58
  Francis Su: Like we all have a deep desire for community, to be in connection with other people.
• 11:04
  Francis Su: We all have a deep desire for meaning.
• 11:07
  Francis Su: nobody wants to live a life that somehow feels meaningless.
• 11:09
  Francis Su: So we automatically make connections, between events and people and ideas.
• 11:16
  Francis Su: And the same thing happens in math, right?
• 11:18
  Francis Su: You, you make connections between something you're just learning and something that you've seen in another context.
• 11:25
  Francis Su: We all have a deep desire for freedom and being able to have agency to make choices in what we do.
• 11:30
  Francis Su: Um, we all have a, a deep desire for beauty to experience, that feeling of transcendence, which people experience in other contexts, but only people who do math professionally begin to see the sort of transcendent side of like, oh, whoa, you know, this idea is connected to this one and it's so beautiful.
• 11:51
  Francis Su: Right?
• 11:52
  Francis Su: And, you know, this is part of why, you know, you see, in a beautiful mind, you've got this like, um, characters who experienced that beauty.
• 11:59
  Francis Su: And then, of course, everyone looks at that and says, oh, they're crazy, you know, rather than, oh, I want some of that, right?
• 12:06
  Francis Su: I want to be able to see the connectedness of ideas and feel like I have a window into something that I otherwise wouldn't see.
• 12:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, I think part of that reason is because that character never is able to like get a girlfriend.
• 12:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, like, so you're like, yeah, I'd like to feel like that, but not at the expense of like my social life.
• 12:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But that being said, but, but what's so interesting about what you said is you're talking about math in this incredibly like liberating way, but how is it that you are talking about it this way yet, I would say that most people I know would think of math as like one of the most restrictive things.
• 12:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: One of the things that would absolutely not lead to freedom.
• 12:48
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 12:49
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 12:49
  Francis Su: and that's, that's because math has this other side, right?
• 12:52
  Francis Su: The side of, um,
• 12:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: The dark side.
• 12:56
  Francis Su: Ha, well it doesn't have to be dark, but it's often taught that way.
• 12:59
  Francis Su: Like, you know, some of these, basic understandings, that you need in order to experience some of that beauty and joy, is some basic, you know, basic number facts, right?
• 13:09
  Francis Su: And, you know, I think those things are, are important, but it's sometimes often taught like, Hey, just try to be a better human calculator.
• 13:17
  Francis Su: And, you know, what I like to say is the world doesn't need better human calculators.
• 13:21
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 13:22
  Francis Su: It's important that we know our basic facts and that having a fluency, there's that technical side, but people often confuse that, fluency with.
• 13:32
  Francis Su: the deeper joy or the deeper possibilities inherent in learning math.
• 13:37
  Francis Su: And you know, there, there are ways in which that's, you know, that, that takes practice and it's, it's kind of like learning your musical scales, right?
• 13:44
  Francis Su: If you want to play a concerto, right?
• 13:46
  Francis Su: But, you don't learn music to start learning to play scales.
• 13:50
  Francis Su: Right?
• 13:50
  Francis Su: Like people put the, you know, maybe switch the emphasis on thinking about math as learning scales, versus listening to a symphony.
• 13:59
  Francis Su: And I just want people to experience the symphony, even if they don't end up becoming professional musicians,
• 14:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And even if they can't like write the symphony themselves, like they can still listen to it.
• 14:13
  Francis Su: Yes, and enjoy, experience that.
• 14:17
  Francis Su: If you think about what we do in math, often we teach people to learn scales before they actually experience the symphony.
• 14:25
  Francis Su: And some people think, well, gosh, you know, kids can't experience a symphony until they learn the scales.
• 14:29
  Francis Su: And I'm like, no, no, you can give them glimpses of what's possible.
• 14:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: But they've heard music.
• 14:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's the other, Okay.
• 14:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: But now I'm obsessed with this idea because I'm like, okay, hold on.
• 14:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm like, well, of course, again, I'm in a band.
• 14:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like tons of people go to concerts and they're not I can't get into this because I don't know how to play the guitar.
• 14:47
  Francis Su: Right.
• 14:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: But why is it different for math?
• 14:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: is it because there's so much guilt and shame around not being able to like understand every bit of it?
• 14:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas like, there's no guilt and shame around not being able to perform an instrument.
• 15:00
  Francis Su: Yeah, I think that there, there's some aspect of that, right?
• 15:02
  Francis Su: Like there's this idea that, Oh, I can't teach kids, I can't show kids the beautiful side of math, until they learn their times tables.
• 15:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 15:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm
• 15:13
  Francis Su: And so, of course, part of that, the thing that I say is that that's the exploratory side that the playful side of mathematics is often what gets people interested and helps them see that, oh, actually, math is actually fun.
• 15:26
  Francis Su: Right?
• 15:27
  Francis Su: And they begin to enjoy those aspects of mathematical thinking.
• 15:30
  Francis Su: You know, think about what's going on in the world today, right?
• 15:34
  Francis Su: Like where we have calculators, computers that can do a lot of the routine stuff for us, right?
• 15:40
  Francis Su: It's valuable, it's important for kids to know how to multiply 7 times 5 quickly, so you're not always reaching for a calculator.
• 15:47
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 15:49
  Francis Su: But, as an example, do we really need to teach long division?
• 15:53
  Francis Su: You know, there's, there's a little bit of a debate, right?
• 15:55
  Francis Su: Like, what would I like kids to learn, that I think is way more valuable, is having a certain number sense, right?
• 16:02
  Francis Su: Being able to say that, oh, if I multiply, 39 times 4, I should get something that's about 160.
• 16:09
  Francis Su: Because that's almost 40 times 4, right?
• 16:11
  Francis Su: That, that's a skill that's useful in today's modern world.
• 16:15
  Francis Su: We can let calculators and computers and AI do the, the routine stuff, but what we need are people with virtues who are able to say, ah, I think something went wrong with that computer, right?
• 16:28
  Francis Su: Like I think the answer, or maybe somebody entered the numbers wrong, but I know that, you know, 39 times 4 isn't gonna give me 2000, right?
• 16:38
  Francis Su: Like so
• 16:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 16:39
  Francis Su: That, that's what we need.
• 16:40
  Francis Su: We need people who are able to do the checks and say ah something went wrong somewhere.
• 16:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I love that you just said people with virtues.
• 16:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a way to put it.
• 16:49
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 16:49
  Francis Su: And of course, that's the argument.
• 16:50
  Francis Su: the big argument I'm making in the book is that math is more than just a bunch of skills like learning how to multiply numbers and factor a quadratic.
• 16:58
  Francis Su: Like skills are things that calculators and computers can do because they can be automated, but virtues are always going to be in demand, right?
• 17:06
  Francis Su: If you have a job that depends on having skills, that job's in jeopardy, right?
• 17:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 17:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 17:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 17:15
  Francis Su: But if you have people who actually have the capacity to think, to reason, to visualize, to abstract, to define, to quantify, those, virtues are always going to be in demand.
• 17:27
  Francis Su: Those are the things that a great math education builds, and unfortunately, people don't get that impression when they leave a math class Maybe we don't do a good enough sales job as teachers.
• 17:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: We do not.
• 17:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, I've never, no.
• 17:43
  Francis Su: Yeah, and when people say, well, why do I need to know this stuff?
• 17:46
  Francis Su: The reason is often because they think math is just skills, like, why do I need to know how to factor a quadratic?
• 17:53
  Francis Su: Well, people who go off in STEM and subjects, um, but most people never need to factor a quadratic in their daily lives.
• 18:01
  Francis Su: But will they actually need to be able to think, and to reason,
• 18:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 18:05
  Francis Su: and to understand?
• 18:06
  Francis Su: Yes!
• 18:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's what I always say too.
• 18:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, it's like the math adjacent skills you're building.
• 18:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Obviously we would love to go in and change the curriculum and the content and all, but like the only thing I think you could do to convince a, like a child or a teenager or whatever that it was important is to be like, you're going to be building skills that will be important in the areas of your life that matter.
• 18:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you know what I mean?
• 18:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like factoring a quadratic.
• 18:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, I actually love factoring quadratics.
• 18:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Regardless of whether it's useful.
• 18:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's one of my favorite things, but I'm always like, no, it's like the thinking, it's the like ability to like problem solve and to work through it.
• 18:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like all of that stuff.
• 18:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, okay, but hold on, we have to back up.
• 18:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause you said something that I'm like, still like shell shocked over.
• 18:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: kind of.
• 18:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm still thinking about the music thing, Think about it from the students.
• 18:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, let's not even use the word student.
• 18:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Think about it from the learner's perspective, okay?
• 18:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm a learner of life.
• 18:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just a person.
• 18:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I go to a rock concert.
• 18:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I listen to a band.
• 18:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love the band, I leave.
• 19:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: In no way am I like walking into the concert being like fuck like I might not understand this and like I don't know how to do it, and like I'm, right?
• 19:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then so like same person, I walk into a math class and my teacher shows me this like really cool math thing, like I don't know whatever it is cool, it's like cool stuff, it's not like, but I'm like, I would feel like I, I'd be so blocked.
• 19:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: By a previous math trauma or like by whatever, I don't know that I'd be able to do what you're wanting, I don't think we can just show kids cool stuff without doing all this like prep work emotionally.
• 19:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, what do you think though?
• 19:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you think I'm like, no, maybe I'm wrong.
• 19:39
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 19:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: People don't have like, music trauma.
• 19:44
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 19:45
  Francis Su: Why, and why is that?
• 19:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me you're the guest.
• 19:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're
• 19:49
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 19:50
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 19:50
  Francis Su: Well, I mean, I'm just thinking out loud here, which is what I think math helps us to do often.
• 19:57
  Francis Su: But, you know, if I think about music, people have early introduction to music, so it's not unfamiliar.
• 20:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Lullabies, even.
• 20:05
  Francis Su: Lullabies.
• 20:06
  Francis Su: People sing.
• 20:08
  Francis Su: you know, I have a three year old and I.
• 20:10
  Francis Su: I'm basically, doing little mathematical things just to get him ready, right?
• 20:15
  Francis Su: Like, back when we were, I was changing his diaper, I would say what's one plus one.
• 20:19
  Francis Su: And he'd say two.
• 20:21
  Francis Su: And that's, of course, that's all memory, right?
• 20:24
  Francis Su: He's not doing any understanding.
• 20:25
  Francis Su: But I have to say, so now he's three, three and a half.
• 20:29
  Francis Su: just the other day, for the first time I saw him thinking about this, right?
• 20:34
  Francis Su: So we do, you know, one plus one is two, two plus two is four.
• 20:37
  Francis Su: And he knows these things by heart now, but then I, you know, recently I started doing this, one plus one is, Oh, count them two, right?
• 20:45
  Francis Su: And so, this was maybe a month ago or so he, I said, what's one plus one.
• 20:51
  Francis Su: And he did this.
• 20:53
  Francis Su: And he thought of,
• 20:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, wait.
• 20:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone needs to know what you're doing.
• 20:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is a podcast.
• 20:57
  Francis Su: yes, oh I'm sorry, yes, yes.
• 20:59
  Francis Su: I'm holding up fingers, and then putting them together, right?
• 21:03
  Francis Su: So two plus two, I'd hold up two on one hand, two on the other hand, and then I put them together, and then we, you know, then we start counting them, right?
• 21:12
  Francis Su: And so the funny thing is he's very good at just reciting, but the other day he actually paused and that's how I knew he was thinking.
• 21:19
  Francis Su: And I saw his eyes move and think, right.
• 21:22
  Francis Su: And so I put up, you know, one plus one and he's like looking and then thinking, and then he says two.
• 21:28
  Francis Su: And I say, two plus two.
• 21:30
  Francis Su: And then he pauses in a way he never did that before and then he goes four and then just to test him I mean, we don't recite this one.
• 21:37
  Francis Su: I said what's one plus two?
• 21:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god.
• 21:41
  Francis Su: We've never practiced that one before and I could see the gears turning and he said three!
• 21:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, he didn't! Mazel.
• 21:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god.
• 21:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's incredible.
• 21:51
  Francis Su: But see that, he's not afraid to engage that way because we did all this prep work, but it wasn't like, he would get the answer wrong lots, like, sometimes he wouldn't remember 2 plus 2 is 4.
• 22:02
  Francis Su: He'd say 5 or whatever, and I don't shame him, right?
• 22:06
  Francis Su: I don't say, you're wrong, it's 4, and now you don't get your supper.
• 22:11
  Francis Su: You know, like, um, it's so funny how kids learn through revision and I don't make them feel bad that they don't get it the first time.
• 22:22
  Francis Su: But then of course when he begins to see it, has a insight, I'm like, whoa, that's cool.
• 22:27
  Francis Su: That's great So so maybe I mean that like with music is like that, too.
• 22:33
  Francis Su: People have an introduction in music and I guess maybe they don't necessarily learn how to play music until much later
• 22:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or ever though.
• 22:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like they could never learn it and they wouldn't learn, they wouldn't feel dumb about being like, oh man, I can't play what the band is playing, like,
• 22:49
  Francis Su: Yes.
• 22:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I'm also thinking, like, I literally just thought of this question now with you.
• 22:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, speaking of learning through revision, like, that's literally what we're doing.
• 22:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we're not like, no, like, take back your previous answer.
• 22:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, first of all, that's a direct application of what you're talking about in terms of, like, translatable mathematical skill.
• 23:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm also thinking out loud, is it because there are no stakes attached to music the way they are with math?
• 23:11
  Francis Su: Yeah, or less.
• 23:12
  Francis Su: Less so.
• 23:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: No one's going to call you dumb if you don't know how to play music.
• 23:16
  Francis Su: That's right.
• 23:17
  Francis Su: And, one could argue, I'm not sure I'm gonna stand by this, but I'll just say it.
• 23:22
  Francis Su: Like, one could argue that math is such a necessary skill to have in a way that music isn't, but you know, the thing is, like, I, that's, that's part of the whole flourishing aspect.
• 23:33
  Francis Su: Like, I would say, if you lived a life where you never experienced music, that would be a real shame, right?
• 23:41
  Francis Su: That like maybe, you know, something like music is, you don't need that to live, but music is part of what makes life worth living, right?
• 23:52
  Francis Su: Like it's part of why you live.
• 23:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's, whoa.
• 23:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's fucking deep and I know, I see what you're saying of being like, I don't know if I'm gonna say, like I know what you're saying.
• 24:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, I don't know but then I'm kind of like well, hold on, what does it mean to even need something to live?
• 24:07
  Francis Su: Yeah.
• 24:07
  Francis Su: I mean, you could go through your whole life and not listen to much music and, but I would say that there's, you've lost something if you haven't actually, haven't actually experienced music.
• 24:20
  Francis Su: You know, right.
• 24:21
  Francis Su: And the other thing, of course, is that there's lots of different ways to experience music, lots of different kinds of music.
• 24:29
  Francis Su: And to get to your point, we're very limited in what we think of as math.
• 24:32
  Francis Su: We think of math is just those calculator skills.
• 24:35
  Francis Su: And it's actually much larger, like math includes, of course, I like to call them virtues, being able to visualize, right?
• 24:45
  Francis Su: Being able to define, to quantify, to abstract, like these are all different ways of being mathematical and we don't often talk about that or discuss that or assess that.
• 24:59
  Francis Su: But that's why I love the Queen's Gambit, right?
• 25:01
  Francis Su: Like you, you saw this girl practicing her chess skills by visualization and, you know, laying awake at night and looking up at the ceiling, right?
• 25:11
  Francis Su: I can't tell you the number of times that I, I do that as a mathematician thinking about a hard problem.
• 25:16
  Francis Su: I try to visualize it in some way that's completely different than the way I was thinking about it before.
• 25:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and I love, and also doesn't that speak to the way we would love people to think about ideas that they're so polarized against?
• 25:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Looking at it, reframing it in a different way from a different perspective and a different context.
• 25:33
  Francis Su: Yes, that's how you have empathy for other people, even if you don't agree with them, like, it would be great if every person could argue to give the best argument for why their ideological opponent has a particular point of view, right?
• 25:50
  Francis Su: Like,
• 25:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, I love that.
• 25:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you have to find one thing in the other person's argument that, like, speaks to you in some way that's, like meaningful.
• 26:00
  Francis Su: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:01
  Francis Su: I mean
• 26:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: You should tell this to Chris.
• 26:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is great for his debate stuff.
• 26:06
  Francis Su: uh, yeah, yeah.
• 26:07
  Francis Su: Sorry.
• 26:07
  Francis Su: Who?
• 26:08
  Francis Su: Chris?
• 26:08
  Francis Su: Chris who?
• 26:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Chris Luzniak, who thinks you're very nice, who I just interviewed.
• 26:12
  Francis Su: Oh, I see.
• 26:13
  Francis Su: Yes, and of course that's what I like about Chris Luzniak's work is, which, uh, for the listener who doesn't know is, um, he frames math around thinking about debates.
• 26:25
  Francis Su: And how engaging it is to have debates.
• 26:27
  Francis Su: So you're not, debating whether two plus two equals four, but you're debating what's the best strategy to get to this or that answer.
• 26:34
  Francis Su: And that, that is really more about what math is about.
• 26:37
  Francis Su: So he's actually like, getting at an aspect of math that, hits at the community aspect, right?
• 26:41
  Francis Su: Being able to have interesting conversations about how you might try to solve a problem.
• 26:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 26:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm hmm.
• 26:48
  Francis Su: That's really more about, as a professional mathematician, that's more like what my life is like is I have I'm having debates, little mini, discussions with my collaborators and how we're going to approach this or that problem.
• 27:01
  Francis Su: That's way more interesting and engaging than.
• 27:04
  Francis Su: having debates over facts, which I hope we don't have debates over.
• 27:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, yeah, exactly.
• 27:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And also it's like that, but I think that's what people think.
• 27:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: They think that's the only way to talk about math.
• 27:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 27:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, I'm actually looking at my, list of questions and I haven't asked you one thing I wanted to ask.
• 27:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I kind of love that because this is the best, but I do, there's one thing, I mean, there's one final question I'm going to ask you.
• 27:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um.
• 27:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: But also how funny is that?
• 27:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, Oh, I didn't ask actually one of these questions, but this has been the best convo anyhow.
• 27:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's my question.
• 27:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you know Gabor Mate?
• 27:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm listening to his book on Audible.
• 27:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's just about, it's about trauma, and I'm writing a book on math trauma and math therapy, and the way he frames it made me want to ask you about it.
• 27:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: He talks about trauma as a wound.
• 27:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's like, you know, when we talk about trauma, we make it this whole big thing, but it's not like trauma is basically like any wound you have, an internal wound.
• 27:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And with a wound, it either scars over, so it becomes rigid and immovable and you can't grow over it, or it doesn't scar over, so anytime anyone touches that wound, it hurts again.
• 28:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, I think about math trauma that way.
• 28:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, you have an experience with math that it just leaves a little bit of a wound.
• 28:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Either you, you can't, uh, do what we were saying, you can't go to a math rock concert and take in the math because you just don't feel like you can grow, or it hurts and you feel, you know, whatever.
• 28:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, do you feel the way that we are currently teaching math, which I would say is obviously not in any way towards the end goal of human flourishing in most classrooms, do you think there's something about teaching math in the way we are that leads to that wound or leads to that wound being re touched or re triggered?
• 28:46
  Francis Su: Mm Yeah, I mean, I, I do.
• 28:48
  Francis Su: I think that there's a huge emphasis.
• 28:51
  Francis Su: And again, I understand why, where it comes from, but there's a huge emphasis in the early grades on speed as a measure of ability.
• 28:59
  Francis Su: When, you know, if you even look at in college or advanced levels, speed isn't even a thing, right?
• 29:06
  Francis Su: But I understand, I understand why we do it.
• 29:09
  Francis Su: It's because we want kids to be fluent in their math facts.
• 29:12
  Francis Su: And that's, that's valuable.
• 29:14
  Francis Su: But maybe we should rethink, just to start in one place, maybe we should rethink how we use speed and why we, can we design activities, strategies for getting kids to learn their math facts without shame and without speed being a factor.
• 29:32
  Francis Su: If you just do that, and I think there are many ways that you could do that, I think that would go a long way to, helping kids not experience that wound.
• 29:40
  Francis Su: That's not the only thing, there's lots of different ways that we could change.
• 29:43
  Francis Su: I think we've got to change a lot of how we assess math, right?
• 29:47
  Francis Su: We got to give students experiences where they reflect on some of the joyful aspects of math, right?
• 29:54
  Francis Su: Actually, I, what I like to do in my class is actually have students write and do reflections.
• 29:59
  Francis Su: So, part of, part of that is, is trying to heal some math trauma, and, um, part of that is just getting them to realize that, that I think, as a teacher, that there are these other things that are equally important, right?
• 30:13
  Francis Su: I do want my students to, to learn the skills that they're supposed to learn in this or that class, but I want them to also have, times when they, they actually reflect.
• 30:22
  Francis Su: You know, like, what's, what's the most beautiful idea that you've seen so far in this class?
• 30:26
  Francis Su: And why is it beautiful to you?
• 30:28
  Francis Su: These kinds of things should be part of our assessments.
• 30:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, We're on to the final questions.
• 30:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: But okay, I'm asking one more and then we're honestly final questions, which are like, bang, bang, like quick.
• 30:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, here's the thing.
• 30:40
  Francis Su: Speed, oh no,
• 30:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, I, speed, speed.
• 30:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're being tested.
• 30:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: The rubric is only speed.
• 30:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, if we're all, kind of like, math needs to change.
• 30:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math needs to change.
• 30:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why isn't it?
• 30:50
  Francis Su: Yes, um, it's complicated.
• 30:54
  Francis Su: It's complicated.
• 30:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 30:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 30:56
  Francis Su: I don't know.
• 30:57
  Francis Su: I don't know if there's any easy answers that question.
• 30:59
  Francis Su: Part of it is we teach what we know and how It's easier to be in our comfort zone than to not be in our comfort zone.
• 31:06
  Francis Su: Part of it is that we need structures around us as teachers that encourage us to be experimental and, uh, and don't discourage us, right?
• 31:16
  Francis Su: Like all of us want to, there's no teacher who doesn't want to improve their craft, but I know if I have limited time and I don't get rewarded for trying things that are risky, that I'm just going to default to what I've done before.
• 31:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 31:32
  Francis Su: And, that's not, the fault of the teacher if you don't have people around you and structures around you that encourage you to try something different.
• 31:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Beautifully put.
• 31:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Clapping at that one.
• 31:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: David probably hates this in the mic.
• 31:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final two questions.
• 31:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number one.
• 31:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools?
• 31:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: One thing.
• 31:53
  Francis Su: Uh, assessments.
• 31:54
  Francis Su: Let's change what we value and help students see that too.
• 31:58
  Francis Su: Because students only see what they're tested on.
• 32:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: A million percent, yes, we are so aligned right now, an hour in and we are on the same page.
• 32:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Finally, second question, what would you say to someone who is like, very cool that you said all this, Francis, but like, I'm just not a math person.
• 32:17
  Francis Su: Oh, um, again, that's complicated.
• 32:20
  Francis Su: But I usually start with their experiences and help them see what they're already doing is mathematical, right?
• 32:30
  Francis Su: Um, people think of math as like, okay, can you compute this or that?
• 32:34
  Francis Su: Right?
• 32:34
  Francis Su: But, you know, if an artist is very visual, then I'd say, hey, help them see that visualization is a huge part of what it means to do math as well.
• 32:44
  Francis Su: And, they've honed this through years of experience doing visualization, that they're actually doing something mathematical.
• 32:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just beautiful.
• 32:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything I haven't asked you that you feel you'd like to say to our listeners?
• 32:59
  Francis Su: Um, I, I hope that every person is able to see that math can be a part of their lives in a rich and fruitful way, even if it's not something they regularly do or regularly enjoy.
• 33:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's very lovely.
• 33:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think you have to read Francis's book, even if you like, hate math.
• 33:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, seriously, like, even if you hate math, I would just read it.
• 33:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because it's like, I, I was reading, like, I failed grade 11 math twice.
• 33:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I, I've gone from one side to the other and I was reading it, jaw agaping, like, Oh my God, exactly.
• 33:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, so like, even if you're listening to this and you're like, ugh, I feel your book is math therapy.
• 33:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I would read your book, Mathematics for Human Flourishing.
• 33:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anything else you want to plug here?
• 33:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you on TikTok or what?
• 33:44
  Francis Su: Ha ha ha.
• 33:46
  Francis Su: Um, anything else I want to plug?
• 33:47
  Francis Su: No, I mean, I think that like that book is, as you notice, I put a lot of heart into it.
• 33:53
  Francis Su: You know, there's lots of personal stories and that's, part of the way in, I think, to, for people to begin to see themselves in mathematics is to see themselves as part of the story.
• 34:02
  Francis Su: And, um, you read some of my own journey of discouragement, but also, why I think math should be rich, should be part of everybody's experience, right?
• 34:12
  Francis Su: Like, if you think about what's going on in AI these days, people think of computation AI is, okay, we can just leave all the math to, to the robots, right?
• 34:24
  Francis Su: And I would say, yes, there's a lot of routine stuff that should be left to robots.
• 34:30
  Francis Su: But, we're missing out if you let robots do all the math,
• 34:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 34:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, should this episode be called"Is mathematical virtue the antidote to AI?"
• 34:40
  Francis Su: Yes, that's how you're going to get more people to, to engage with it is like, this has implications for what we're, what, the way we're thinking about technology, right?
• 34:50
  Francis Su: Like, is technology
• 34:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally!
• 34:51
  Francis Su: And part of the wisdom I think we, we need to have around technology is being able to say what's, routine that I can actually,
• 35:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm hmm.
• 35:01
  Francis Su: That I can automate and what's actually important to focus on.
• 35:05
  Francis Su: Isn't that also what life is about?
• 35:06
  Francis Su: Like, what should I be spending my time and energy thinking about?
• 35:11
  Francis Su: And I would say if you're not spending part of your time enjoying some of the mathematical patterns around you, whether you think of them as mathematical or not, then that's a life that's maybe not as rich as one in which you do see some of the patterns around you.
• 35:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is such an incredible conversation because also I find that it's really hard, I know we're not talking about spirituality, but it's hard to talk about things in a spiritual way, because I feel that when I do, I got a lot of flack from like math people, you know, not wanting the two to meet.
• 35:45
  Francis Su: Yes, yes.
• 35:47
  Francis Su: And I and I I think that's a mistake like I think that like people would be much more open to math if they could see how it connects to their spiritual natures.
• 35:58
  Francis Su: I mean, you see some of that thread running through the book, but all these human desires are actually spiritual desires.
• 36:03
  Francis Su: Like we, we have a spiritual connection to beauty.
• 36:06
  Francis Su: We have a spiritual connection to, to seeking truth, right?
• 36:10
  Francis Su: To, to seeking meaning, right?
• 36:13
  Francis Su: These are all spiritual desires as well.
• 36:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, this has been amazing, beyond, so exciting.
• 36:20
  Francis Su: It's been fun for me too.
• 36:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great, well thanks for making it happen and uh, bye.
• 36:26
  Francis Su: Bye bye.
• 36:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love him.
• 36:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can I say that?
• 36:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just love the guy.
• 36:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just left this interview with such a concrete outlook on how math trauma can affect our students far beyond their performance in our classrooms and I appreciate so much Dr.
• 36:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Su's ability to take what often seems vague and unapproachable and turn it into something we can all access and action in our very own classrooms.
• 36:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And come on, how cute was that part about teaching his son how to count with his fingers?
• 36:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, stop.
• 36:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go get his book, The Mathematics of Human Flourishing.
• 36:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Seriously, you will not regret it.
• 37:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok.
• 37:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg.
• 37:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise.
• 37:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use.
• 37:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those things actually make such a big difference for us.
• 37:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word.
• 37:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until next time, peace, love, and pi.