Latest / Babes, how did you get here / I PREFER South African Racism Over British 'Politeness' | She Left The UK After 7 Years

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I PREFER South African Racism Over British 'Politeness' | She Left The UK After 7 Years · Babes, how did you get here

0:00
They said, do you feel better being in England?
0:03
This was a kind of mind in the UK, a white British lady.
0:06
Now, we'll never forget it.
0:07
And she said, do you feel safer around and better
0:10
around white British people than white South Africans?
0:12
I said to her, you know, I actually feel better
0:15
around white South Africans than I tell you why.
0:17
Because with white South Africans, you know,
0:18
exactly where you stand.
0:20
If they are racist, they'll tell you straight to your face.
0:22
If they want to call you a racialist, they'll call you it.
0:25
I said, but you guys, I don't know where I stand.
0:27
And I think that's the danger.
0:28
So I said to her, I actually prefer South African racism.
0:31
What does it look like?
0:32
It looks very, very, very, very bad, very dark.
0:36
Children, friends, I had growing up.
0:38
I think they turned out to be prostitutes, drug addicts,
0:41
alcoholics.
0:42
I try not to judge them, but I always think to myself
0:44
that it could have been me.
0:46
But I go so that they can see that I've made something out
0:49
of myself and that that should be an encouragement for them,
0:52
you know.
0:53
But I feel like sometimes, you just,
0:56
the education just isn't there.
0:58
So I'm in the salon and I look at the headresses
1:02
and I think to myself, you know what?
1:04
I can do this.
1:05
Like I can, I can be just as successful as them.
1:08
I can, in actual fact, I feel like I can do better than that.
1:11
That's what I, that's what I think to myself.
1:13
I just don't have the needs to do it.
1:15
And then after a couple of years, being a, I didn't
1:18
went up until you progressed from being a child
1:20
to being a silent assistant.
1:22
Now that's when you learn a lot about the industry.
1:25
And I was always hungry for knowledge.
1:26
And I went, I remember researching this woman
1:28
I said to myself, I want to work with the best
1:32
in the industry, her researcher.
1:34
And lucky for me, she was hungry.
1:36
Some people dream of living elsewhere.
1:38
Other people actually pack up and do it.
1:41
I am April Jackson, traveling the world,
1:43
finding interesting people who have moved abroad.
1:46
Desmy Collier is an independent hairdresser,
1:49
Airbnb host and content creator from Cape Town.
1:53
She moved to the UK for love.
1:55
That move reshaped her understanding of identity,
1:59
belonging and the true cost of a life elsewhere.
2:02
Now, back in South Africa, I cannot wait
2:04
to dive deep into her life's journey.
2:07
But first, I must ask, babes, how did you get here?
2:11
I got here because I wanted my identity back.
2:14
I wanted to be me again.
2:16
I felt like I was losing myself.
2:18
And I was trying so hard to get to fit in
2:21
and to make it work, but it just wasn't working.
2:24
And I was kidding myself, if I'm honest.
2:26
How long were you living in the UK?
2:29
Well, I lived in the UK for just five years.
2:33
And then I lived in Gerns, it just shied two years.
2:36
So abroad, it was a total of seven years.
2:38
Seven years?
2:39
That's a good stint.
2:40
Yes, you understand and decide whether you wanted or not.
2:44
Sure.
2:45
Can you take me back to your childhood in Cape Town
2:48
for people who maybe haven't been here?
2:50
I'd love to just get an image of what growing up here
2:53
was like.
2:54
Growing up in Cape Town, I grew up in a very unequal society.
2:59
I had to see how some people had.
3:01
And some people didn't.
3:02
And unfortunately, I fell under the bracket that didn't have.
3:06
I grew up in a township called Fragrant
3:08
in the southern suburbs of Cape Town.
3:12
And it was very humbling, if I'm honest.
3:16
This is why I do not take what I have for granted,
3:18
because I know where I started versus where I am now.
3:21
And growing up, I had a mom that was a domestic worker.
3:27
You guys know it may be abroad as house cleaning and all of that.
3:31
So times were tough, just to put food on the table.
3:34
And sometimes they had to work two jobs.
3:39
I'm sorry, this time baby, I was very hot.
3:44
And looking back now, she was trying her best.
3:47
And I always used to say, one day, I wanted a baby for myself.
3:52
But I just knew that odds were against me,
3:54
because my mom could fit me through school, high school,
3:58
and all of that.
3:58
But I knew that the chance of me going to college or university
4:02
were off the table.
4:05
And so I had to start in my industry.
4:09
I'm a senior hairdresser now, but I started right from the bottom.
4:13
So I had to start with cleaning the salon, washing hair,
4:17
and all of those things to get into it,
4:18
because I knew that was my way into the industry,
4:21
ways with others that come from very well of parents
4:24
and organized homes, you know, the better side of campus.
4:27
And they'll go straight to college.
4:31
We're dropping new episodes every single week.
4:33
So make sure you subscribe.
4:34
You don't want to miss this baby.
4:36
And leave a comment and tell me,
4:37
what do you want to hear out of my next conversation?
4:40
Your support really helps this community grow.
4:43
And if you know someone who's quietly been thinking,
4:45
should they take that next big leap?
4:47
Babes, send them the podcast.
4:49
OK.
4:50
I had to work for that.
4:51
Can I ask, are you an only child?
4:53
Do you have siblings?
4:55
I'm one of five.
4:56
OK.
4:56
And where do you fall?
4:57
Are you?
4:58
Second last bone.
4:59
OK.
5:00
Second last bone of five.
5:01
Right.
5:02
And when you were going to school, did you like school?
5:06
Did you like academics?
5:07
Or did you always know that you wanted
5:09
to go the vocational route?
5:11
The short answer is no.
5:12
I didn't enjoy school.
5:13
I used to find breaks more exciting.
5:16
I used to find going home more exciting,
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which a lot of people would probably think, oh,
5:19
but I also find that exciting.
5:21
I also want that.
5:23
But it was because I was struggling with academic work.
5:25
OK.
5:26
And in schools, back then, they didn't
5:28
encourage you to get a trade.
5:30
They didn't think that it was possible for a child
5:34
to be successful, to become a plumber, or a hairdresser,
5:36
or a carpenter, or anything like that.
5:39
So they just push you into academics.
5:41
And so you collapse.
5:42
And that's why a lot of kids don't turn out to be successful,
5:46
because I think that's the only way out.
5:48
Going to university, then being an academic.
5:51
You said that you wanted to go to college.
5:54
Was that specifically for hair?
5:56
That was specifically for hair.
5:57
At some point, I wanted to do beauty,
5:59
but I fell in love with hair because I
6:01
used to blow dry hair in my mom's living room for pocket money.
6:05
And to also help my mom, you know?
6:07
So I would make lots and lots of money on the Friday
6:09
and Saturday, and even some Sundays,
6:12
just so that I could have my own pocket money,
6:14
because mom couldn't provide my pocket money.
6:16
So I was a hustler from a young age.
6:18
I was an entrepreneur from a young age.
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I made sweets from scratch, and I would sell it.
6:22
I don't know if you know the brand A1.
6:24
Yes.
6:25
I used to sell A1.
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Anything to make money.
6:27
So I was always an entrepreneur.
6:29
I don't think it's something that someone could teach me.
6:31
Sure.
6:32
It's something that's like the hustling
6:33
is always been there.
6:35
And what age are we talking that you're
6:36
blow drying hair?
6:38
I would say 14, 15, and professionally.
6:41
Sure.
6:41
And professionally, but professionally,
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I've been doing it for over 12 years.
6:45
OK.
6:46
And when you're doing it at 14, 15,
6:49
are you thinking this can be your career?
6:51
No.
6:51
I thought someone like me doesn't deserve
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to be where I am today.
6:55
I just thought being a professional hairdresser
6:58
and working in some of the best salons in the world
7:00
that wasn't meant for me.
7:01
I just thought, well, this is it.
7:03
I'm just going to do house calls and all of that
7:06
and not go the professional route.
7:08
OK.
7:09
Because I didn't know anyone that did it,
7:11
that come from where I come from.
7:12
So I didn't have an example, if that makes sense.
7:15
To see, to look around you.
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What are people doing?
7:19
Like when you are young and you're thinking
7:21
about what your future life is going to look like,
7:23
what are the examples that you're seeing?
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So basically, a lot of my friends
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that has made it out of the township or, you know,
7:29
rougher areas, they've all gone to university.
7:32
Oh, sorry.
7:33
I felt defeated.
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I felt like there's nothing for me
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because I just felt stupid.
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I thought, look at my one childhood friend
7:40
she went to university two times.
7:42
She's got two degrees.
7:43
She works for the city of Cape Town.
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She's got her own house and her own car.
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And what am I doing?
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I'm blow drying head home.
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So I just thought to myself, that's like my friends
7:52
that made it out.
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And obviously, I had lots of examples of people
7:55
that would never ever get out.
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So it was a combination of, it's either be an academic
8:01
or turn out like those people.
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And for me, unfortunately, I didn't have the education
8:05
that you could make a successful career
8:07
out of having a trade.
8:09
And when you don't make it out of the township,
8:11
what does that look like?
8:12
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8:28
What does it look like?
8:29
It looks very, very, very, very bad, very dark.
8:32
Okay.
8:33
A lot of the children, friends I had growing up,
8:38
I think they turned out to be prostitutes, drug addicts,
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alcoholics.
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I mean, I still go there and say hello to them.
8:46
I try not to judge them,
8:47
but I always think to myself, that could have been me.
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But I go so that they can see that I've made something
8:54
out of myself and that that should be an encouragement
8:57
for them.
8:59
But I feel like sometimes the education
9:03
just isn't there.
9:05
When did you realize that you could go a different route
9:08
and create your own path?
9:10
And not, I don't want to say just,
9:12
but go from blow drying here in your mom's living room
9:16
to making a career, even though you didn't have the financial
9:19
backing to go straight into college.
9:22
Yeah.
9:23
So I eventually started at the salon
9:25
where I was a shampoo girl and the clean of the salon
9:28
and all of that, that was my way in, like I said early on.
9:32
And then there I started seeing,
9:34
oh, these girls go to college.
9:36
So why am I only shampooing here?
9:38
So you didn't know before that that people
9:40
are going to college for hair?
9:43
I did know they're going to college for hair.
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I just didn't know it would be me.
9:46
OK.
9:46
Because I thought I needed lots and lots of money for it.
9:49
OK.
9:49
Because that's the perception that's out there.
9:52
Do you know what I'm saying?
9:53
Right.
9:54
And again, there was no education for me.
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I didn't have anyone to tell me, you know,
9:57
you can do this, this and that.
9:59
And then you can work your way up.
10:01
That's basically the point I'm trying to make, yeah.
10:04
So I'm in the salon and I look at the hairdressers
10:09
and I think to myself, you know what?
10:11
I can do this.
10:12
Like I can be just as successful as them.
10:14
I can, in actual fact, I feel like I could do better than that.
10:18
That's what I thought to myself.
10:20
I just don't have the means to do it.
10:22
And then after a couple of years being us,
10:24
I then went up to you, progress from being a shampoo girl
10:27
to being a salon assistant.
10:28
OK.
10:28
Now that's where you learn a lot about the industry.
10:31
And I was always hungry for knowledge.
10:33
And I went, I remember researching this woman
10:35
as I said to myself, I want to work for the best
10:38
in the industry and researcher.
10:40
And lucky for me, she was hiring.
10:43
Yes.
10:43
And I went for the interview and I said to her,
10:46
please do not hire me if your intentions are not
10:50
to make me a hair stylist.
10:51
If intentions are to keep me a salon assistant,
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please do not hire me.
10:55
And she said to me, you cheeky, but I like you.
10:58
And she said to me, I've got so many other interviews to do
11:03
because, I mean, she's very popular.
11:05
Everyone wants to work for her, you know,
11:06
because of the knowledge that she gives.
11:08
She's also a facilitator, which I knew at the time.
11:12
And I thought, this woman can help me, you know.
11:14
And at what the day wasn't even over.
11:16
And she called me, she said, you know, you've got the job.
11:18
Because if you're cheeky, because if a cheekyness,
11:21
no one has ever spoken to me like that before.
11:23
No one has ever told me, do not hire me if your intentions
11:26
are to stay, to keep me as an assistant.
11:29
And from there, onward, I moved up like a level
11:32
as I went on the floor as a junior hairdresser.
11:35
And that's when I started coloring hair.
11:38
And I just started to like, I don't know how to explain it.
11:41
It was like, my dream was finally coming true,
11:43
but without the paperwork, remember I've
11:45
not been to college yet.
11:46
Right.
11:46
And then that was the time when I met my husband.
11:50
Oh, really?
11:51
Yeah.
11:51
So what age are we talking about?
11:53
I actually started very late.
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It was, I think I was 22, going on 23.
11:57
OK.
11:57
And are you still living with your mom?
12:00
At this point, no, I'm on my own.
12:02
OK.
12:03
So I'm out of the township.
12:04
OK.
12:04
I'm out of the township at this point.
12:06
Do you ever remember at that time
12:09
feeling any sense of guilt?
12:11
Because you've grown up in a community.
12:13
And you've seen that there are these two avenues, right?
12:16
And you've been able to carve out your own path.
12:19
And I just wondered if you ever felt guilty.
12:22
100%.
12:23
You do?
12:24
Especially for my siblings.
12:25
OK.
12:26
And especially for my mom.
12:27
But the thing is, if I'm not an example to them,
12:30
and if I don't love this life and pursue it, I can't help them.
12:34
What are your siblings, your older siblings doing
12:37
when you're just finding your way?
12:38
Nothing.
12:39
OK.
12:40
Nothing because they were like me.
12:42
They used to think there's no way out of it.
12:44
OK.
12:44
Yeah.
12:45
And it was, for me, it was, right, maybe an example to them.
12:49
And let me show them that anything
12:51
is possible with hard work, you know?
12:53
Where did this burning desire come from?
12:55
Poverty.
12:56
But a lot of people live in poverty.
12:59
And this needing to see examples,
13:02
I think we really underestimate, right?
13:03
What it means when you see someone do something from,
13:06
however you identify, whether that's
13:08
your identify with them, nationality, race, class, whatever
13:11
you can kind of link and bond to someone's image.
13:15
And you see that person do something.
13:16
And it does make you feel that that is also possible for you.
13:20
And I'm just saying, other people
13:21
have seen the negativity that you describe.
13:24
And they weren't necessarily able to find that file,
13:28
to break the mold, if you will.
13:29
And I'm just wondering, have you analyzed
13:32
what it was that gave you the ability to push through?
13:36
Yes, I've always been ambitious from a young age.
13:39
People always used to tell me, you different.
13:41
And I've always known, if I'm honest as cocky as this is
13:44
going to design, I've always known I'm going to be somebody.
13:46
Amazing.
13:47
I've always known I'm going to make something out of myself.
13:49
I just needed to know how.
13:50
How?
13:51
And how to go about it, if that makes sense.
13:54
So that burning fire has been in me since a young age.
13:58
Yeah.
13:59
Do you think it has to be born?
14:00
Because even when you talk about entrepreneur, OK.
14:02
Yes.
14:02
You got to.
14:03
I don't think I can push.
14:05
Because I've tried to help certain family members do this.
14:09
Look, there's an apprenticeship available.
14:11
And then they'd be like, it's too hard.
14:12
I think I'm too old to do that.
14:14
And I'm like, no, the apprenticeship is for three years.
14:17
Whether you do it or not, you're still going to be three years older.
14:19
Yes.
14:20
So it's not too late.
14:21
Go and do it.
14:22
So I realized, oh, I can't teach someone to have the same fire as me.
14:25
I can't want it more than them.
14:27
Yeah.
14:28
So as long as I know, I've tried to help, I've tried to teach them how to fish instead
14:32
of giving them the fish.
14:33
Because I think that's where a lot of people go wrong.
14:35
Right.
14:36
They give people the fish instead of teaching them how to fish.
14:39
And that's where certain family members feel like they need to, almost like they feel
14:43
obligated to your success, like your money is their money.
14:46
Right.
14:47
And I have what you call new money.
14:48
You know, I've never had it before.
14:49
I've never, I don't come from a market house.
14:51
I didn't, my mom couldn't afford to save me for driving lessons and all these things.
14:55
So how did I get it all?
14:57
By just being focused, you know?
15:01
And yes, there was a time when I used to party a lot because I think that was to numb the
15:05
pain.
15:06
Okay.
15:07
Because I knew what I wanted, but I didn't know how to get it.
15:09
And I felt like I wasn't an alcoholic.
15:11
I just wanted to make that.
15:12
Sure.
15:13
It was more like party.
15:14
You know, every week it would be like big parties, fries.
15:17
You know, it has a barbecue.
15:18
So it would just be like party of the party, but I just knew deep down.
15:22
This is not what I want.
15:23
But it's okay for now.
15:24
You know, it lums the pain a little bit, you know?
15:26
Your siblings, brother sisters, how is it split?
15:29
So it's two brothers and then two sisters and then there's me.
15:32
So three sisters and two brothers, my older sister passed away.
15:35
The year I moved to the UK, which was a lot, yes, yes, yes, because I've always known
15:41
when I made the decision to leave Sarafika, I've always known that that will come.
15:46
That's part of the struggle, not knowing when you're going to get that call.
15:49
But your older sister was old, not even 40, but she was, to be fair, she was very sick.
15:56
Okay.
15:57
But not sick to the point where she was on deathbed, you know?
16:02
So yeah, that happened.
16:04
That was a lot as well.
16:05
You said the first year, not even half year in.
16:09
You got a call to say that your sister has passed?
16:11
Yes.
16:12
Yes.
16:13
Yes.
16:15
That was, that was actually really hard because that was actually the first year as well
16:19
that I started to become a bit more senior in my work.
16:23
And now this is affecting your mental health and I thought, why does this mean for me, you know?
16:28
But then I had to fly back to Sarafika to come to the funeral.
16:30
I couldn't not come, you know?
16:33
And Shane Poorhabi is also on his way back with me to Sarafika and we stayed for a week
16:38
and we couldn't stay longer because life has to go on.
16:41
You know, I have this dream that I am pursuing and a week is all I can give for myself to
16:46
grief.
16:47
Wow.
16:48
Yeah.
16:49
Yeah.
16:50
Because the financial freedom wasn't there yet.
16:53
And the longer I would have stayed in Sarafika to be that crutch for my mom because I
16:57
held the store to pass away.
16:59
It would have just meant like, it would have taken longer for me to get to where I wanted
17:03
to be.
17:04
That makes sense.
17:05
Because my boss told me at the time, take as long as you want and I said, no, I just
17:09
need a week.
17:10
Okay.
17:11
And to some people that might sound selfish, but I think she would be proud of me because
17:17
that if I had to take another three weeks, I don't think I would have been where I am today
17:21
because there was a lot that I had to get to do to get to the top.
17:25
Right.
17:26
Yeah.
17:27
So you mentioned that you met your husband?
17:29
Yes.
17:30
Can you tell me how you met?
17:31
So it was very, it was very casual, I'm not going to lie, it was very casual, but it
17:35
was also very romantic at the same time.
17:38
So I'm on the beach, the beach I grew up going to, which is weird, if you told me, I was
17:43
going to meet my husband on that beach that I grew up going to, I wouldn't have believed
17:47
you.
17:48
Okay.
17:49
Everyone knows it as a musenberg beach for me at home, you know, it's where I feel safe,
17:52
you know, and he was set in a coffee shop needs bakery to be precise, he was set there,
17:58
he was the only ginger guy in the coffee shop because he's from the UK.
18:03
And he was with other volunteers, so this is short, sorry about my husband, he came to
18:08
South Africa to do volunteer work, yeah, and he was with other volunteers and I was friends
18:12
with them.
18:13
Okay.
18:14
And so it was more like, oh, we mutual friends, we know, we know, we know that.
18:17
So the other volunteers are from South Africa?
18:19
No, they're also from Europe, but they live here.
18:23
No, they like him, I used to hang out with a lot of them because I used to be a volunteer
18:28
myself.
18:29
Okay.
18:31
So I was like in the industry and I just used to meet all these volunteers, yeah.
18:36
And he was there and I mean, long story short, we all hang out at the beach at the same
18:43
day and yeah, he asked me if I was on Facebook, back in the day, Facebook was cool.
18:49
This was about a decade ago, this month, actually, because he asked me on Valentine's Day
18:54
on February 2016, so it's been a decade since I've known Mars, but in saying yes.
19:00
So that's the short version of our team, yeah.
19:03
And when you met him and he's like, okay, we're going to connect on Facebook.
19:06
Do you have an inclination that this is the man that you're going to, oh, okay, no,
19:11
because I wasn't into, I wasn't into gigs to what a geek, okay, he's already, I could,
19:17
I could, I could, you knew, I used to like bad boys, okay, I was like this guy is not
19:23
going to be my husband, my boyfriend, not even in his wildest dreams.
19:27
And I thought, I like, I like the idea of having fun with him, like going out on a date
19:31
or whatever, but I don't think it, I would pursue it in that sense of being long term, doesn't
19:37
make sense, because I just, I just thought he was like so gentle, I was like, I was used
19:42
to rough a guy, he would pull out a chair for me and I was like, okay, he's pulling out
19:47
a chair for me and then he'll hold the door open while I walk through and he would do it
19:51
for everyone else.
19:52
Right.
19:53
And then almost like the body got, like everyone come through and I was like, also that's
19:58
the thing, I never saw that growing up.
20:00
So it was like, why is such a sweetheart, is so sweet, you know, again, that made me
20:05
realize that I've had a bold up such a wall to the point where I don't see the good in
20:11
people that, that often, if that makes sense, because you have like this, right, I need
20:16
to get to the top and you're going to be in my way, you pulling out a chair for me is
20:20
probably just your way of trying to make me feel better, but maybe you don't mean it.
20:24
Okay.
20:25
So you didn't feel like it was sincere.
20:27
Mm-hmm.
20:28
It wasn't sincere for me, but I was overthinking it.
20:32
At what point do you realize that actually this is somebody that you can be with?
20:38
Just the way he was and I could be myself around him and I told him from the start, I want
20:42
to be transparent about who I am.
20:44
I don't come from this, when I say this, he made me while I was just transitioning from
20:49
moving out of the township into the suburbs.
20:52
So I say to him, I don't come from this and I don't want you to think that I do.
20:56
The places that I hang out with, I could never fall to hang out here.
20:59
So it's all new to me, I don't come from money, you know, because when he spoke to me about
21:05
his life growing up, he never really told me about his upbringing, he was just pretending
21:10
to be an average show.
21:12
But then as I got to know him, I realized, oh my gosh, I grew up in an unequal society
21:18
and my husband has had everything, I could have ever dreamed of, parents, I could pay
21:22
for university fees, you know, things like that, things that I could only dream about,
21:26
a trip he's like, I remember him saying they used to go to Canada just to ski.
21:31
So he's like, he didn't have the struggles that I had.
21:33
So we came from two different worlds, we came from two different worlds and I was just like,
21:38
right, how is this going to work, do you know what I mean?
21:41
Did you ever feel when you started to learn about his, is it fair to say his privileged
21:45
upbringing?
21:46
Very privileged, yeah.
21:47
I didn't think he would feel offended when I said it, because he can't help it, he can't
21:51
help it.
21:52
No, I just want to make sure I'm using the right words, and that's cool.
21:54
So when we learn about his privileged upbringing, are you then internalizing that you guys
22:01
aren't aligned because you don't share that upbringing?
22:05
Absolutely not.
22:06
Okay.
22:07
Absolutely not.
22:08
I knew that I only wanted the best, I knew that I was waiting for that guy to sweep
22:13
me off my feet.
22:14
I feel like people actually used to say to me things like, we know you're going to get
22:18
into a serious relationship, we know you're going to get married, we know you're going
22:21
to do this, but I knew when I meet this person, this person that I've got, that's the idea
22:26
I've got into my head, I knew when I meet him, I would know.
22:29
Okay.
22:30
I didn't just want to be with someone for the sake of proving a point to someone, I wanted
22:35
to be with someone that understands me, someone that gets me, that sees past, past where
22:42
I come from, and he saw right past that.
22:46
He told me, okay, say, do you grow up in an answer, what do you want me to do about it?
22:49
Do you want me to treat you any differently now because I won't, because I like you,
22:54
I want to pursue you, you know, to find by that.
22:57
And so I took a message him, let me take you to the house where I grew up.
23:01
And he said there, like, I was so shocked, like, he didn't even pull up his nose or anything
23:06
like that.
23:07
My nephew's degraded, my mom, and I said, you need to call her auntie or ma, you can't
23:13
just call her on her first name because it's cultural for us to do that.
23:16
For us to do the same.
23:17
I said, they would think you're being disrespected for exactly right.
23:19
So all those things, he just accepted it, he never once questioned it.
23:23
So he just showed, he's got so much humility and I did not expect that from someone like
23:27
him.
23:28
What were you expecting when you took him to your home?
23:29
I thought he was going to be saying things like, oh my god, isn't it dangerous to go
23:33
there?
23:34
Oh, that's all that.
23:35
And I said to him, do you trust me?
23:36
And he said, yeah.
23:37
And I said, come with me.
23:38
Let me show you where I grew up.
23:39
And he was actually, I think he felt more inspired, and he looked at me in an even different
23:46
light.
23:47
He said, wow, this is a lot that you came from and where you are today.
23:51
So I felt like it made him feel like I want to pursue it even more because if she can
23:55
handle that, then she can probably handle a lot more, you know.
23:58
When you say that you needed someone to understand you, was there any point in your relationship
24:03
that you felt that he couldn't understand completely because it's one thing to respect
24:09
and understand from a distance?
24:10
I'll give you an example.
24:12
I was dating a guy who's half English, half Chinese.
24:16
And if I'm in a relationship, if I need to explain racial undertones and things to you,
24:22
it's too much talking.
24:23
I don't want to have to constantly explain and then you think I have a chip on my shoulder.
24:26
But during COVID, we go to a restaurant in a very white area in London and there are
24:31
seats outside and their only available seats are for four people at a table and there's
24:37
just two of us.
24:39
And the lady comes and asks us, you know, how many people we say two please and we ask
24:44
to sit outside because it's a nice day, rare, you know, whole London goes, right?
24:49
And the people behind us, a white couple, also two and I hear them saying that they also
24:54
want to sit outside.
24:55
So the lady says that we can't sit outside because the tables are for four.
24:59
I said to her, babes, I understand I'm in the industry.
25:02
If you get a table of four, we'll be more than happy to move inside.
25:05
Sure.
25:06
I get that you need to make the money.
25:07
Remember, it's COVID.
25:08
So I get it.
25:09
Yes, it was struggling.
25:10
Exactly.
25:11
She said, no, we have to sit inside.
25:12
I said, okay, no problem.
25:13
So we sat inside and no one behold the couple behind me, they get to sit outside.
25:20
But there are also just two people and it's exactly the same circumstances.
25:24
The point is, is that my partner at the time, he sees and he says, are you ready to leave?
25:30
There was no me having to explain why it was not fair for us to sit outside, blah, blah.
25:35
And for me, that was really comforting that he understood and I thought that he understood
25:39
because he's actually lived in South Africa, he lived in other countries and I do believe
25:43
that when you travel, you get 100%.
25:45
That happens up here, my wife.
25:46
But what I realized is the reason he understood people's prejudice is because he grew up in
25:51
Scotland and when he was younger, he looked very Chinese.
25:54
So he received a lot of abuse and racism in school and it was through his own lived experience
26:02
which is why he was so understanding, not because he was just great at observing.
26:07
And so I'm just wondering, from your husband's perspective, were there any times where you
26:12
had to explain any dynamics and what were those cultural explanations?
26:18
I think because my husband is so not a racist and he's so not a xenophobic and he thinks
26:24
when I met him, everyone's like him.
26:26
Right.
26:27
So he was a bit naive, you know, he thought if somebody says something to me and then
26:31
said something completely different to him, it's because he was a man.
26:34
Okay.
26:35
Because he did not, it's not because he didn't see, I don't want to be that person to say
26:38
that and I don't want to be that person to say that my husband is ignorant or anything
26:42
like that because he's not, he's an anthropologist.
26:45
So he understands people, he understands culture.
26:48
But because he didn't grow up in a time or in a place where that was a thing, I had to
26:53
really explain myself, you know, that was racist.
26:56
You know, they spoke to you rather than to me.
26:59
And I said, you know how I can tell you it was racist because I have white female friends
27:03
and they would treat me exactly the same way if they were in the conversation with me because
27:08
it makes sense.
27:09
So I said, you can say it was because you are male and that's maybe a small part of it,
27:14
but I can promise you, it's because you are and it doesn't help.
27:17
And I'm talking about both in South Africa and in England, it's exactly the same.
27:21
It's just in England, it's more, okay, we're sweeping it like the carpet, you know, we're
27:25
not going to, we're going to use different language, different, different energy to make,
27:31
to be a racist, but the racist is a racist and you can smell it a mile away, you know what
27:35
I mean.
27:36
So there were times when we used to fight about, oh that was racist, oh that wasn't because
27:41
it was hard for him to accept that the country that he comes from does have racism because
27:47
he always used to teach me things like the Brits were the one to stop, first to stop colonization
27:53
I think something, something like that, I can't, I can't, I can't, but he would give you
27:58
reason to say why it's different.
28:01
And it's very progressive, he would say to me, a white guy and a brown or a black woman
28:05
or an Asian woman would walk down the street and it's so normal.
28:09
And I'm like yeah, it's normal to you because you're white, you don't understand what
28:13
it's like for the person of color to work around with a white guy or a white woman because
28:17
that person can feel the energy in the room, like sometimes you could cut the tension with
28:21
a knife in certain places where we went because I also think there's something called, and
28:27
I don't know if the UK is very big on this but I think it is, if it is something called
28:31
light skin privileges, okay, so it's like you get a bit of a pass when you were a white
28:35
person and they're thinking, oh, he's closer to whiteness or Asia, or Asia because I have
28:40
very Asian features.
28:41
I was going to say, you definitely look like you could be Asian.
28:44
Yes, so I think I got a pass a lot because because remember the closer you are to blackness
28:49
the more of a thief you are, the more the more rougher you are and things like that.
28:53
So I feel like in South Africa, I do sometimes get a pass for not looking 100% black because
28:59
I do have 50% black in me, I've got 10% white and I've got 40% Asian actually.
29:04
Okay.
29:05
I think my DNA trace back and I've got the results, yeah, I've even got German, crazy.
29:12
The place where Tom grew up, I'm 1% in China Islands, this is where I've been, I tell you
29:18
that colored people inside Africa are mixed, 400 years, I promise you, next level mix,
29:24
we are the most mixed group of people in the world.
29:26
That's what someone told me last week, it's insane.
29:29
So explain colored for people that don't understand what that means in South Africa.
29:35
Of course.
29:36
Everyone wants to hide behind the fact that it's called mixed race people, it couldn't
29:39
be further from the truth because mixed race people to me is first generation.
29:42
Okay.
29:43
First generation.
29:44
That means as if I was what, if I identified as, I'm just making an example of Nigerian
29:48
and I'm black and then my husband is white British and we were together and we had a child
29:53
that would be first generation mixed race, I am not first generation mixed race colored
29:58
people are not first generation mixed race, it's over 400 years of mixing and because they
30:03
couldn't define us into just one race because some of my friends are white passing, some
30:09
of my friends are black passing, I'm Asian passing so it's like, right, you can't just
30:14
put them under mixed race.
30:15
So it's not just simply your fair skin?
30:18
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, color, you could be classified as colored because it's
30:23
more the culture in a community.
30:26
So I can give you an example in blacks that I think would communities, there are certain
30:30
rituals that they do, certain cultures that they follow, in colored people I've never
30:33
even heard of it or they would never ever do that.
30:36
Practice, yeah, it wouldn't, it's not different to being Indian, it's not different to being
30:41
Mexican.
30:42
What are some of the cultural practices in the colored community?
30:45
Yes, so I'll give you an example because if it is with colored people there's just so
30:50
many things that I think is hidden because our story is not being told out there.
30:55
Oh really?
30:56
From a, from an international wider point of view it's just about black and white in
31:01
South Africa.
31:02
Yeah, so I would me and my community would probably fall under black to make it easy for
31:08
the world to understand because they don't want, they don't want us to be seen, right?
31:12
Because if they, if they tell our stories then the history books need to change.
31:18
This is why you always, yeah, when people think about South Africa they always think black
31:21
or white, like the racism and then the black people.
31:24
You never hear about the Indians and you never hear about the colored people.
31:29
And I know that word is a bad word in other places but there's also bad words in other
31:34
places that we find offensive.
31:36
So what's, what's bad for you might not be bad for me, you know what I mean.
31:40
And I think people need to really be open-minded about this is our culture, this is how we identify.
31:45
If you feel like it's a bad word then you need to ask yourself why you feel like that
31:50
because why is it a case for you to call yourself black or Asian or whatever but if someone
31:54
else identifies as something else it's a problem.
31:57
Yeah.
31:58
So for instance, on a Sunday morning I don't think you saw on my, my more personal page
32:03
where I have, because he's just a breakfast on a Sunday.
32:06
Okay.
32:07
Yes, so it's, it's almost like a spicy donut and then you decorated with coconut so that
32:12
it's something that the colored community is going to eat for breakfast every Sunday with
32:16
a cup of tea.
32:17
So I, now that I'm back I do a lot of those types of videos because I'm proud of my culture,
32:21
I'm proud of my heritage.
32:22
I don't want people to think because I've loved the broad, I've lived my culture.
32:26
Right.
32:27
You know what I mean.
32:28
So that's one of the examples and you ask a black or white celebrity, do you guys,
32:31
they don't?
32:32
Okay.
32:33
No.
32:34
We have something called Capsiclopsia which is the slaves that actually celebrate, they
32:38
freed them on second New Year.
32:39
Okay.
32:41
A lot of these things will never be spoken about in all the wider media, right, because
32:47
it's like they hide us, they hide us, they hide our culture.
32:50
So this is why you'll see these colored people across South Africa and across Southern
32:54
Africa, but the colored people from Cape Town are almost like seen as the home of colored
32:58
people.
32:59
Okay.
33:00
Does it make sense?
33:01
Yes.
33:02
It's like Africa is the home of black people.
33:03
Cape Town is the home of colored people.
33:05
So you'll see a lot of the time when people talk about colored people, the first thing
33:08
they'll ask you is, are you from Cape Town?
33:10
Right.
33:11
Because that's the perception of where colored people are.
33:13
Comfortable.
33:14
With all the slaves who brought you to Cape Town and that's how I'll come into your form,
33:18
you know.
33:19
When you decided to go to England, is this before or after you've got married?
33:25
Before.
33:26
We were engaged at this point.
33:27
Okay.
33:28
Yes.
33:29
Was the plan always to move to the UK for me or do you mean for us as a couple?
33:34
As a couple.
33:35
No.
33:36
We actually thought we would pursue a long distance and we did for two years.
33:40
Okay.
33:41
And I mean, for two years, it was up and down.
33:43
He was just a poor student.
33:45
My husband was 19 years old when I met him.
33:47
He's almost 13 years old.
33:48
So he didn't have, he didn't really have a cent on his name.
33:51
Sure.
33:52
So bless him.
33:53
He used to save up.
33:54
He's, what do you call him?
33:55
He's student finance.
33:56
Yeah.
33:57
He used to save up that money and used to work at Subway part-time to come and see me.
34:01
And how often are you able to see each other during these two years?
34:04
Three, three times a year.
34:06
Okay.
34:07
Yeah.
34:08
That's still good.
34:09
Yeah.
34:10
So you would come during uni breaks.
34:11
Okay.
34:12
And you wouldn't see, you wouldn't really see his family that much.
34:13
He would just come.
34:14
And I think at some point his family probably thought, oh, we have to meet her.
34:17
Oh, my word.
34:18
We have to have a video.
34:19
What is the special about her that he would leave?
34:21
He would sometimes, he would even spend a Christmas year with me.
34:23
Okay.
34:24
And not for this family.
34:25
He would spend, he's still with me and not for this family.
34:26
So it was like, his family, first of all, his family probably thought, couldn't you get
34:30
a girlfriend in the UK?
34:31
Right.
34:32
I'm sure there's lots of girls that would want you.
34:35
So I think it was very confusing for his family in the beginning.
34:37
And I can see that now from my point of view that any parent wouldn't want that for their
34:42
child.
34:43
Right.
34:44
Do you know what I mean?
34:45
Yeah.
34:46
It's confusing.
34:47
You don't know what the future holds.
34:48
And it was actually my now mother-in-law that suggested to Tom.
34:52
Do you not think it would be easy actually moved here?
34:54
Okay.
34:55
Because I really had, I really had kind of a career.
34:59
And Tom was still studying.
35:00
So it was like, right, wouldn't be easier for her.
35:02
To move over there.
35:04
And he spoke to me about what his mom suggested.
35:06
Because I think at that point, his mom probably thought, I want my son to have a stroke in
35:10
life, we've given him this, this life.
35:13
And I don't want him to ruin it by moving to South Africa and not have a career.
35:16
Okay.
35:17
Doesn't make sense.
35:18
And then that's when you guys start discussing, you moving?
35:21
Yes.
35:22
And then first I was dancing against it.
35:23
Because I know, I heard about the rooms, about the weather and the unfriendly people and
35:27
all of that.
35:28
Like I don't see myself, if he was from, if I'm brutally honest, if he was from Thailand
35:33
or Bali or places like that, I don't think I would have thought about it.
35:36
And you don't just gone forward.
35:38
Because I know I'm a summer person.
35:40
Right.
35:41
Everyone who knew me growing up, you always find me at the beach, you know what I mean?
35:44
Like I'm just like, I like to be under the sun, you know, the African sun.
35:48
So when I heard about this whole Europe story, I was like, oh no.
35:52
So yeah, in the beginning it was, you know, I told him, this is a lot, I have to think
35:56
about it.
35:57
How long did we take to think about it?
35:59
Not too long.
36:00
Because I feel like he also needed to, the series, his future in the UK and I feel like
36:07
I was holding him back.
36:08
Okay.
36:09
Do you know what I mean?
36:10
So I said, I'll do it, you know, I'll see if I like it.
36:13
If I don't like it, what is the worst that can happen.
36:15
Right.
36:16
And it's, I said to him as a, as a headress, I think the UK is the perfect place to start.
36:21
A lot of people don't know that headress actually started in London or really in the UK, yeah.
36:26
But for me, I knew that as a stylist and I thought I could meet some of the best stylers.
36:31
I can go to some of the best hair shows.
36:33
I can probably maybe enter one, you know, not that I couldn't do that, yeah.
36:37
But it was just like, right, people will have more respect for your name if they knew
36:41
that you work in a country where your industry started.
36:44
Right.
36:45
So I thought about things like that, positive things that could make them move easier,
36:49
you know.
36:50
I was very naive, I was young and I was naive.
36:53
I was, I just thought everything was going to be perfect.
36:57
To be fair with my, to be fair to my husband, he didn't tell me about all these things that
37:02
I've experienced because he didn't know any better.
37:04
And I can't blame him for that.
37:05
I can't blame him for, oh, someone, someone was casually racist, or was in a phobic
37:10
force.
37:11
Sure.
37:12
How would he know if he's lying about that experience?
37:13
If I had to experience that he doesn't, someone like me, and this is something that I think
37:17
a lot of people don't understand and I think at the time his family didn't understand
37:21
it.
37:23
Someone like me has never married into his family from a working class background and
37:28
someone of color.
37:29
Okay.
37:30
So it was a lot and on top of it from a different country.
37:33
So it was not just the one thing, it was a lot.
37:35
A lot to combine.
37:37
So when you first get to the UK, you're living in Guernsey.
37:41
Yes.
37:42
His family lives in Guernsey.
37:43
He's a mom and his sister.
37:45
Okay.
37:46
From his mom's second marriage.
37:47
Right.
37:48
He lives in Guernsey.
37:49
Okay.
37:50
And his dad lives in England.
37:51
Okay.
37:52
So they split.
37:53
Right.
37:54
Divorce.
37:55
And the first, that's the first time you're meeting his family.
37:58
Yes.
37:59
When you're moved.
38:00
I used to talk to them on video call and Facebook and all of that.
38:02
But let's be honest, it's not the same as meeting in real life.
38:05
Right.
38:06
And it was a lot.
38:07
When you first land, do you land at Heathrow, Gatwick?
38:11
I think it was Gatwick.
38:12
Okay.
38:13
I think you landed at Gatwick.
38:14
And the cold hits me.
38:15
Because I moved in, I think it was Jen or Fib.
38:20
Okay.
38:21
So it was summer, which you know is the art of winter there.
38:26
Yes.
38:27
So the cold front hits me and my skin starts to pain.
38:30
Are we dressed appropriately for the cold?
38:32
A little bit, because my mother-in-law said, I told Tom to pack you some UK winter clothes.
38:37
Because I packed my suit, because I said to my mother's lawyer's name is Mandy.
38:43
And she said to me, are you just bringing that?
38:46
That's summer clothes.
38:47
I said, no, that's my side African winter clothes.
38:49
She said, no, that's summer clothes in the UK.
38:51
Okay.
38:52
So it was like my idea of winter clothes in South Africa was the idea of summer clothes.
38:57
And Tom actually bought like two thick jackets to me and like a pants to wear.
39:01
And she said, when you get there, go to the charity shop.
39:04
I guess so.
39:05
Obviously, Tom and I were, we didn't have any money.
39:07
So the charity shop was our first, was my first stop and I got all these thick jackets.
39:11
And I remember walking out of the charity shop with this thick jacket and I felt so much
39:15
better.
39:16
So this is straight from the airport.
39:18
I actually went to my father-in-law's house, he hosted me, him and his partner and Tom's
39:23
grandparents were there as well.
39:24
Okay.
39:25
So it was a lovely home.
39:26
Welcome to England.
39:27
It was just a cold.
39:28
Right.
39:29
There was a lot, you know?
39:30
Right.
39:31
I was nervous.
39:32
I'm not going to lie, but I didn't show them I was nervous.
39:33
Okay.
39:34
But why did you show them?
39:36
Because I, I don't know, I wanted them to accept me.
39:41
Okay.
39:42
I feel like I didn't want them to feel like the stereotypes about it and I feel like,
39:47
oh, that's new.
39:48
Oh, that.
39:49
Because you must understand I moved from a third world country to a first world country.
39:53
Not that there are things in the UK that are confined inside I think, but there's a lot
39:56
of cultural differences there and I feel like because people are so ignorant, they will
40:01
just associated with the fact that it's poverty.
40:04
But sometimes it's just a new experience, even if I came from Canada, maybe that would
40:08
be a new experience for me.
40:10
But I think people, when you found the content enough Africa, if we are being honest,
40:14
when you have, when you look at something, you think, oh, wow, that's a new people,
40:17
we just think, oh, it's because you're African, you don't know any better.
40:20
Right.
40:21
So those are the things that I used to hide from my in-laws because I didn't want
40:23
them to think, okay, so she comes from a working class background.
40:26
She's a person of color and she's from South Africa, shame poor her, the first time she's
40:30
seeing snow.
40:31
Right.
40:32
You know, things like that or there's a lot of things that I can get into, but it was
40:36
just like my own insecurities because that time I used to care a lot about people's opinions,
40:40
I just wanted to be accepted and liked.
40:43
What are some of the stereotypes of South Africa?
40:46
For example, I know very clearly what are the Jamaican stereotypes, we all have dreads,
40:50
we all smoke, we probably all do drug trafficking of some sort, we're all poor and hungry, expect
40:57
I'm from Kingston, so I definitely don't know luxury and I am dodging bullets all the
41:02
time.
41:04
I think that kind of sums it up.
41:06
Yes, so it's not different to me.
41:09
No, okay.
41:10
I think that I...
41:11
Maybe just minus the dreads.
41:12
Yes, and I also think, like someone actually told me this to my face, they said, do you
41:18
feel better being in England?
41:21
This was a kind of mind in the UK, a white British lady.
41:23
Okay.
41:24
Now, I'll never forget it and she said, do you feel safer around and better around white
41:28
British people than white South Africans, I said to her, you know, I actually feel better
41:32
around white South Africans and I'll tell you why, because with white South Africans,
41:35
you know, exactly where you stand.
41:37
If they are racist, they'll tell you straight to your face.
41:40
If they want to call you a racially, they'll call you it.
41:42
I said, but you guys, I don't know where I stand and I think that's the danger.
41:46
So I said to her, I actually prefer South African racism, because it's straight to the
41:49
point and you know where you stand.
41:51
I feel the same about New York, because people love to say that, you know, we're not as
41:56
bad as America because we don't have gun violence, for example, and exactly what you've
42:00
described in terms of being direct, to me, that is New York.
42:04
A New Yorker will tell you, this is what it is, whereas in England, you go into a store
42:08
and they say, oh, I think, I think you might be lost, I'm not, sorry, or I went to replace
42:12
a diamond in a ring.
42:13
Oh, don't you mean cubic zirconia?
42:15
I'm not.
42:16
Who replaces cubic zirconia?
42:18
You would just buy back a next ring, right?
42:20
And so it's like those sort of things that kind of beat around the bush.
42:24
And maybe it's because I'm used to Jamaican culture, which is very direct, very straightforward.
42:28
Like you, I prefer to just know where I stand.
42:31
I prefer people, people think I'm crazy about saying this, because they say it doesn't
42:34
hurt your feelings.
42:35
I said, no, because then I can move on.
42:38
Then I know where I stand.
42:39
And you're also not questioning, right?
42:41
Because there's this thing I don't ever want to walk around, like I have a chip on my
42:45
shoulder.
42:46
And I think the blessing of growing up in Jamaica means that I don't, right?
42:49
So there are certain things that I will never get offended about.
42:51
For example, when somebody says, oh, go back to where you come from, I'm like, babe,
42:54
I'm working on it.
42:55
Right?
42:56
Like it doesn't, it doesn't offend me.
42:58
Whereas I feel like if I had grown up in England with, I would offend you more.
43:02
I think so, right?
43:03
Same with me.
43:04
Yeah.
43:05
If, if, when I saw the, the uprise against people of color in England, that, that was actually
43:09
the year before we decided we're going to leave, because I don't think a lot of people
43:13
know this.
43:14
We've been planning for years to leave.
43:15
Oh, okay.
43:16
It just didn't tell anyone.
43:17
Okay.
43:18
Because I already knew the first year of living there.
43:19
I didn't tell my in-laws.
43:20
I didn't tell my close friends.
43:21
I didn't tell my family.
43:22
I already knew it wasn't for me.
43:24
Why?
43:25
I didn't like it.
43:26
I didn't like how you had to drag everything out of people.
43:33
You could, I couldn't be myself, you know?
43:35
I, I saw how Tom could have a, like, a conversation with someone and people which is like hang
43:41
on to his every word.
43:42
And I think there's a lot of classism in England.
43:44
Yes.
43:45
And I don't think people understand the difference between racism and classism.
43:48
I experienced both.
43:50
And it's actually quite, it's a lot.
43:52
Classism in racism in the same room is a lot.
43:54
Like you can, like, in South Africa, there's more classism in my opinion.
43:58
Same for me in Jamaica.
43:59
Yeah.
44:00
Yeah.
44:01
Because classism is associated with many in South Africa.
44:02
Yes.
44:03
Same in Jamaica.
44:04
Yes.
44:05
Most of it will come in.
44:06
And I tell people it's a lot more fluid, right?
44:07
Yes.
44:08
Because let's say that you are from a ghetto in Jamaica, but you dress a particular way.
44:14
You speak a particular way.
44:15
You can move into different spaces.
44:17
Well, that being judged.
44:19
Exactly.
44:20
England, for example, I will never be old money.
44:22
I mean, look at me.
44:23
My ancestors clearly did not come from old money.
44:26
And so no matter how well spoken you are, how well educated you are, how well traveling,
44:31
you will always, and you will always be put into a particular box where I don't think
44:36
any amount of education, knowledge, skill, anything will get you out.
44:42
There's the limit is always going to be far lower when the classism, which then becomes
44:48
very much tied to race.
44:50
Yes.
44:51
You know, yes.
44:52
And I think also with my in-laws, it was a lot for them to deal with someone who just
44:55
likes to be honest all the time.
44:57
Okay.
44:58
And when I say honest, I don't mean I was being rude towards them, or anything like that.
45:01
Sure.
45:02
I mean, if something happened, if we had a disagreement, I would like to address it.
45:05
They would be like, nope, the next day we'll just pretend that everything is fine.
45:10
And I couldn't understand it.
45:11
It was missing.
45:12
It was missing me about.
45:13
I just couldn't understand why the one day you would have an argument with someone.
45:17
And the next day you act like nothing happened, and the author has been, is this normal for
45:21
you guys?
45:22
Do you guys not talk about your feelings?
45:23
And you say to me, we usually do that.
45:25
I remember once my, don't want to get to person, but my brother and my brother-in-law
45:30
and my husband had a better argument.
45:32
It wasn't a big argument.
45:33
It was like a petty one.
45:35
And the next time a husband looks at the stairs and he's like, all right, Dave, do you want
45:39
a coffee?
45:40
I was like, it just insulted you last night.
45:41
And it was actually a nice insight.
45:42
And you think you should talk about, and you mean that again?
45:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:48
And I was actually the one that helped my husband to sit boundaries, to have a little bit more
45:54
at an art experience, to be a bit more open-minded about things, like you can't just sweep everything
45:58
under the carbon.
45:59
And he taught me you don't have to react to everything.
46:01
Right.
46:02
So it was a healthy balance.
46:03
And I think people look at him and they look at me and they think, how does this work?
46:06
He's such a sweet individual, he's introverted, he's more of an academic.
46:13
And then you have me, I'm a social media, I'm bubbly, I put myself out there.
46:18
Because I always say there's a people, when you can survive overseas or abroad, which
46:23
ever can for you can survive anything.
46:25
And you actually don't care about people's opinions anymore.
46:28
Is the move what really pushed you into that season of not caring about people's feelings?
46:34
Yes.
46:35
So prior to England, we still cared more about people.
46:37
I was very much, I used to like post on social media all the time.
46:41
I wanted people to see, look at me, I'm in England, I've made a success of my life.
46:45
Moving overseas is not making a success of your life.
46:48
You're just in a different country with different problems.
46:50
You've left the old problems for new problems, right?
46:53
And I'm not saying there's no difference between you maybe being a little bit more successful.
47:00
Maybe some South Africans have even told me they felt safe in England for me personally,
47:04
because I'm such a logical thinker, I don't think England is safe.
47:09
It's not my perception of England, but another South African would tell you, oh, but
47:12
I feel like it's safer than South Africa.
47:14
And I'm like, well, each of their own, we all have different opinions and different ways
47:19
of looking at it.
47:20
I mean, I worked in the Salon in Manchester and they shot, not shot, stabbed, what's the
47:27
guy's name?
47:28
That's a box of Tyson theory or something like that.
47:30
People can go look it up if they think I'm like, they stabbed him, he's cousin to death
47:33
in front of the Salon where I worked.
47:36
The flowers and stuff is still there in front of the Salon and we couldn't actually operate
47:40
that week because the police were doing fingerprints and their jobs and all of that.
47:44
And I said to people, because I've seen and heard a lot of things, it doesn't, I don't
47:48
see it as a safe country because people always ask me, why did you move back?
47:54
Why didn't you say in England, you think it's safer than South Africa?
47:56
I said, yes, because of the media's perception, you only see the good about England.
48:00
And although those things are true, yes, it is a first world country, but it's also third
48:04
world stuff in England that you guys don't see.
48:07
That I've seen, I've seen homeless people, I'm a self-admire, I've been as volunteer
48:11
at a food bank.
48:12
So I've seen poverty, I've seen people that didn't have what, the children, washing up
48:16
liquid.
48:17
I said, how is that a first world country?
48:20
People shouldn't be living like that in a first world country.
48:22
So I break England up in maybe 60% of England is maybe first world, which is higher than
48:28
South Africa, maybe only 30% or 40% of South Africa is first world.
48:32
So there's more first world in England, but it doesn't mean the third world doesn't
48:36
exist.
48:37
There's homelessness.
48:38
I've seen it.
48:39
Were you surprised to see it?
48:40
I was, because you also need to understand where I come from, people who are poor are
48:43
only black and brown.
48:44
Okay.
48:45
Where is when I move to England, it's not a different, it was a lot to get used to, because
48:50
in South Africa, when you're white, the chances of you having a better life, or being
48:54
middle class is far higher than a person of color, and I'm not saying there are no people
48:58
of color that were raised in the suburbs or with money, or whatever the case may be.
49:03
But if we start talking about statistics, those are the facts, whether people want to
49:07
believe it or not, those are the facts.
49:09
So because I grew up in an equal society, a white person cleaned my house for the first
49:13
time in England.
49:15
That was a lot.
49:16
I actually think about that.
49:18
Yes.
49:19
So I actually miss it's Tom.
49:20
It was actually his mom's cleaner, because I lived with my mother in law for two months
49:24
and when I lived in Guernsey, and she said to me, the cleaner is coming, and in my
49:29
head, I think, you know, it could be a Nigerian lady or a summer hunter maker.
49:33
That's what, if I'm honest, I know looking back now, it was just of the lack of education
49:39
that South Africans get from Europe.
49:41
We don't get educated about Europe, we just think everything is perfect.
49:44
So when I'm there, and the lady is knocking, and I'm opening in this lady's like standing
49:48
with a mop, cleaning products, and she's like, I'm the cleaner and it was a Polish lady,
49:53
a blond hair and blue eyes.
49:55
And I couldn't believe a white person was cleaning up after me, because in South Africa,
49:58
that is unheard of.
49:59
I'm not saying no white South African in South Africa has ever been a cleaner, and I want
50:03
people to take it out of context.
50:05
You don't need to quantify everything.
50:06
I can be beyond the same.
50:07
Nine out of ten white Africans would never be a cleaner.
50:10
Ways within England, that's normal.
50:13
Even people who collect your rubbish, they white.
50:17
My garden in England was white.
50:19
The person who fixed my stove was white.
50:21
So I could actually count the people of colour on my one hand that used to do labour work in
50:25
England, because people of colour that come to England are actually far more educated.
50:30
If I'm brutally honest, from my point of view, they so career driven, because they know
50:35
a lot of them come from third world lives, and they want to pursue these opportunities
50:40
that were given to them in England.
50:42
So I'm not saying you don't get black and brown and Asian cleaners, but I'm honest,
50:47
I've not seen a lot of them because they're all very career driven.
50:50
And the South Africans that are not white that I've met in the UK, they all charted
50:54
the countenance.
50:55
And you know what I mean?
50:56
It's like they go there because they want to pursue their dreams of coming from nothing
51:01
and making something in England can provide them with those dreams.
51:04
Ways with the British people, the working class British people, it's like it's normal
51:07
for them to be a cleaner, it's normal for them to, you know what I mean.
51:11
So it's a lot for me to get used to as someone who grew up, because my mum used to clean
51:16
white people's houses for a loving to make money.
51:19
So it was a lot to process, like I never thought that would happen to me, like a white person
51:24
cleaning up after me.
51:25
I put my washing down, the lady puts it in washing basket, I do this.
51:29
It's a lot.
51:30
And it's also, I feel like it's also a fault ignorant at the time that it was my first time
51:36
experiences and I realised at that point, oh my word, I grew up in an equal society where
51:42
I thought it was normal for people of colour to suffer and for one people to have it all.
51:46
Yeah.
51:47
I had never thought about that dynamic at all.
51:51
Yes, most people from third world countries probably, it's a shock for them, you know what I mean?
51:56
Do you see a white person cleaning up after them?
51:58
Yeah, even the waitress, I'm not saying there's no white waitress is here, but the majority
52:03
of the waitress is in South Africa.
52:04
I mean, you've probably been to a few restaurants, there are people of colour.
52:07
Ways with there, it's like, okay, I'm tipping a white person and that's all they're going
52:12
to get maybe.
52:13
Did you feel like you had had progress, not just because you're in England, but know
52:18
you're having this different racial dynamic that you hadn't experienced at home?
52:23
At the time, when it happened, when I first experienced it, I realised, oh, oh, oh,
52:29
why people are just normal people, but it's an Africa, it's more like, yeah, they are
52:34
somebody in England, they are nothing.
52:36
If that makes sense, it's just a normal person in England, because I've met a lot of
52:40
white South Africans in England and a lot of them actually move over because they've
52:43
got British passports or dual nationality because their forefathers were from there or
52:48
their great-granddad or whatever the case may be.
52:51
But then when I experienced all of that, I felt like at the time, yeah, yeah, yeah,
53:02
there's another, oh, it's business, it's here, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
53:29
oh, oh yeah.
53:30
Of course baby kid.
53:31
You can drink during too.
53:33
Oh, can I?
53:33
Yeah, ma'am.
53:37
Not prison?
53:38
Thank you.
53:55
Thank you.
53:58
Do you remember where you are or do you want me to ask you again?
54:04
You asked me how that shaped me and did I feel like almost like I've made it because of
54:09
the old thing about one people who are feeling about me.
54:13
In a way it felt good.
54:15
It felt like wow, but it was the wrong type of one people, I don't know if that makes
54:19
sense.
54:20
It was like right.
54:21
British people are cleaning about me, they are packing shells at Tesco's or Esther, but
54:27
they still are not a white South African, so deep down it felt good, but I thought to myself
54:32
it's the wrong nationality that makes sense.
54:36
Like they would never know what it's like to do that because the ones that moved over
54:40
also, the privileged ones.
54:42
Exactly.
54:43
I've never met a white South African and packed shells at Tesco, they're all also career
54:47
people.
54:48
Right.
54:49
Can I ask, when you meet South Africans in the UK, is the energy the same as if you are
54:55
in South Africa or is the dynamic any different?
54:59
It does depend on the person and definitely does not.
55:01
A lot of the time I feel like, and this is going to be, this is going to blow people's
55:07
minds, but I feel like white South Africans were so used to being people calling them
55:12
bosses back in the day and worshipping them and all of that.
55:15
So when they're in England and they realize, oh everyone else looks like me, there's not
55:19
a lot of people of color and people don't really care if you're white.
55:23
They kind of felt like, you know, right now what, you know, I don't have my white privilege
55:28
anymore and all of that.
55:29
So when I used to meet the ones that were like that, I also met a lot of amazing white
55:34
South Africans and today we are still friends and a lot of them has also moved back to South
55:39
Africa.
55:40
Okay.
55:41
So I do meet up with them and stuff, but we're talking about the ones that are still thinking
55:44
they are better than people of color.
55:45
Yeah.
55:46
I don't think they expect a colored or black person in England.
55:49
I think because of all the odds that work against us, I just don't think they thought
55:54
wow.
55:55
No, no, no, they thought if that was me, I wouldn't even end up in Zimbabwe, let alone in
56:00
England.
56:01
You know, how did you do it?
56:02
How did you do it?
56:03
And I think because I was so much further ahead of them because I was closer to getting
56:07
my citizenship.
56:08
I was, I was, I was married to a local, so I had a little bit, you know, kind of more
56:12
privileges than them.
56:14
I mean, I, I wasn't renting, we, at the end of the day, my husband and I bought as
56:18
well.
56:19
So for them, it was like, they lived in this tiny little house with in, in, in South Africa,
56:24
they had like five big bedroom houses with people cleaning up off them, they had a
56:28
maid, they had all of these things.
56:30
And then in England, they suddenly had to get used to, so I think that part frustrated
56:33
them.
56:34
And so they end up just badmouthing the country because it's the only way they can justify
56:38
the new lifestyle, you know, they would say things like, South Africa is a shithole.
56:42
Like I would, I would never go back to that shithole or whatever the case may be.
56:45
And I'm like, do, look at how you live in South Africa, you're at the best of the best,
56:50
the best food, the best quality of life you, you had these cleanness and everything.
56:55
And now you humble.
56:57
Yeah.
56:58
And I feel like that's the type of energy I got from certain South Africans.
57:03
And then the others, funny enough, I, I'm going to be honest, I'm seven out of 10
57:08
South Africans I've met in England and I don't think a lot of people believe me are actually
57:12
more South African than I am, proudly South African than I am.
57:16
They made me look bad, they taught me to be more proud of my heritage because they said
57:21
they realized how small they were and they are okay to say that, you know, they realized
57:26
like how much they had.
57:28
Yes.
57:29
And they said one that I want to go back and a lot of them did make it back.
57:32
Do you think that you would have had this love for South Africa, had you not left?
57:38
Nope.
57:39
Nope.
57:40
I mean, I've always been proud to be from this country, I've never, I've never been ashamed
57:43
of it.
57:44
Yeah.
57:45
But when I loved over there, I realized all my values that I've been brought up with and
57:49
I think that made me proud to be South African.
57:52
Like respecting her elders, I remember I was set on the bus once and there was this
57:56
elderly lady, she walked into the bus, onto the bus and I once stood up for her and everyone
58:01
on the bus I'm assuming was British, you know.
58:04
And then I got up and I said, please sit down, it's hot and that's what you're doing,
58:08
it's hot and then she's got a walking stick.
58:11
And she sat down and someone came up to me, passed me as they were, you know, exiting
58:16
the bus and they said, you mustn't do that, you paid for your ticket.
58:20
They said you mustn't let her sit.
58:22
Yeah.
58:23
Yeah.
58:24
I thought to myself, I was like you, I thought to myself, am I going mad or something?
58:26
And that's when I realized while my values that I grew up in in South Africa.
58:30
Someone told you that you shouldn't have given the old lady a seat.
58:33
Yes, this person said, I would have said down because I paid for the ticket, I paid
58:38
for the seat.
58:39
Wow.
58:40
And I didn't explain myself to the person, do you know why?
58:42
Because then I realized the cultural differences, it was a white British person that said that
58:47
to me.
58:48
So it was even more raw, that makes sense.
58:50
If it was a person of color, I think I would have been more shocked, right?
58:53
So things, so things like that, talking about God when I wanted to, you know, my religion
58:59
and all of that.
59:00
In England, it's like, right, you don't talk about that.
59:03
You're finding people now, you know, you just talk about whatever you can talk about
59:08
because in the UK, it's very, it's a very conservative country, you need to know what
59:12
you can and cannot say, you know, you don't want to upset people.
59:16
So I realized also, my faith also took a dip, not in general, just in the workplace or
59:22
where's with you in the workplace, you can talk about God in no one cares.
59:25
I've got Muslim clients and I can talk to them about Christianity and they wouldn't
59:29
feel a thing that was within the UK, I could never do that.
59:38
These social rules that you're explaining, did somebody guide you or did you just have
59:43
to, like, learn as you go?
59:45
For example, Africa?
59:46
No, no, when you're in the UK, so for example, not talk.