Latest / B Shifter / Dan Madrzykowski And Fire Dynamics On The Exterior

Transcript

Dan Madrzykowski And Fire Dynamics On The Exterior · B Shifter

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Beat Shifter Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have Dr.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Daniel Madrakowski coming up from UL Fire Safety Research Institute.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: He'll be on with us in a moment.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: First, I want to check in with Josh Bloom.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing, Josh?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: How are you, John?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoying the weekend.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are here on Memorial Day when we're recording this, but we wanted to get together with Dan and talk about some important things that are going on in the fire service right now.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: So Dan's going to be on in a moment.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: We also have the grant season is open.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: We saw the guidelines for the new grant program is out.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do we know about AFG, especially when it comes to command training?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so last week AFG pushed out that the grant cycle is open.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very short window.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it's June 22nd is the last day to submit.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: So they gave about a month to submit grants.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So blue card command training and certification remains at the top, really, of meeting the requirements of high priority things.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, command training as it relates to all of the NFPA standard parts and pieces that our system and certification addresses.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then the maintaining the certification part of it.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a lot of conversations this last week with folks that are applying for grants or applying to get more grants to maintain the certification or train more folks.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're looking for any grant information, you can reach out to me, josh at bshifter.com, and I can help you out with that, send you in the right direction to get you that information.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're already down to what 27 days, maybe or something.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: So pretty short window to get that taken care of.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: But whatever we can do to help you out, reach out and do what we can.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Very happy to welcome today's special guest, Dr.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Dan Madrakowski.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's a research engineer with the UL Fire Safety Research Institute, also known as FSRI, and one of the leading fire dynamic researchers in the world.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: His work has helped shape the modern fire service's understanding of fire behavior ventilation, wind-driven fires, exterior fire attack, and tactical decision making on the fire ground.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Over the last two decades, Dan has led and contributed to groundbreaking research focused on firefighter safety, fire spread, and modern fire performance in buildings under fire condition.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And his work has directly influenced operational tactics, training programs, and national conversations surrounding modern fire attack and command operations.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you've been to a blue card conference in the last several years, you know Dan has been there along the way with us, giving us his updates and sharing new information.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're proud to have him here today sharing new stuff with us.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Dr.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Dan Madrakowski from ULFSRI.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, thanks so much for being here with us today on the B Shifter podcast.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're going to talk about some fire dynamics that may exist outside of structures because we often talk about fire dynamics inside structures, but fire dynamics apply anywhere combustion occurs.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: What are we still missing as the fire service when it comes to understanding outside fires and exterior fire spread and how that relates to fire dynamics?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: John, Josh, good morning.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: As you both know, in the past 15 to almost 20 years now, there's been a clear definition of fire dynamics and structures.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the fire behavior that was taught in Firefighter One, Firefighter 2 had to do a lot with chemistry, which is still valid, but not so much the fire dynamics piece.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result, SOPs for structures were based on the building construction or the occupancy type, and rarely included questions about where is the fire in the structure, how big is the fire in the structure, and where's the fire going to go in the structure?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, again, over the past couple of decades, I think with the research that's gone on and the publication of NFPA 1700, the concept of fire dynamics and structures has gotten clearer.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: The difference between event limited and a fuel-limited fire condition, and understanding that if you just add air to event limited fire condition, the fire will grow, the heat release rate will increase, the fire hazard will increase, and that increase could be very rapid.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: We know that we need air for a flashover or a backdraft, or again, even a smoke explosion.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we're understanding now that that air might not be due to an action that we take or a failure of the building.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: But we see that as the fire grows and decreases and grows and decreases based on the oxygen availability, that it could be changing that ventilation where the neutral plane is in an open vent itself and causing such a response.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Understanding flow paths, looking at the different parts of the building, trying to not operate in areas between where the fire is and where the fire wants to go, basically staying out of the exhaust portion of the flow path.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: You want to try to operate in the intake portion of the flow path, fight the fire on its own level.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: We know that pressure and flow moves the fire through the structure.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: We know that heated gases expand and cooled gases contract.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So the importance of coordinating suppression with ventilation is very key.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think in structures, especially commercial structures, there's still a misunderstanding, perhaps, about smoke in a building.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: That sometimes it would appear, based on the ventilation practices, that people feel that the amount of smoke in a building is fixed.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like water inside in a bucket.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that if they can make more holes in the building fast, similar to making more holes in the bucket faster, that the water will come out of the bucket faster.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in the case of the bucket, that's true because the water's just sitting there.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's not reactive, it's not inert.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if you make more holes, you'll definitely drain the bucket faster.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's not true in a building.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's a fire in the building.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: The fire is a chemical reaction.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so by changing the ventilation only and allowing more air in the structure, you're actually making the fire bigger, and the amount of smoke being produced is greater.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you see many times on YouTube or after action reports where you know there's a hole, could be in a window open, flames coming out, there's a hole in the roof that's been made, flames coming out, or the fire vented itself.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's no more to do there until you get some water on the fire.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because any other hole you make is just going to make that fire bigger, and in turn, is going to reduce the structural integrity of that roof faster because you're bringing more heat into the building.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's still a place where there's some additional education needed in terms of structures.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: But then, as you point out, not all fires are in structures.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: We have fires outside of structures, we have fires in transportation vehicles, we have fires in in vessels, we have fires in containers of all sorts.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: So where do fire dynamics apply?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: We know they apply in residential structures.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody, I think, is understands they apply in commercial structures, but these other structures we mentioned outdoor fires, vehicle fires, construction equipment fires, shipboard fires, do they apply there?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly they do, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a piece that we know hazmat folks go to.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, they understand that.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: But do the first responders, the first crews on the scene, do they understand that?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I think that's that's another area of learning and growth that uh that we want to, you know, that'd be a great thing to talk about today.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So from the research side, then what are some of the biggest misconceptions that you see that folks in our business still have about exterior fires and what are we missing when it comes to how they behave and extension into exposures?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, from an exterior fire going in, you need to fight that fire from the exterior, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna have much success trying to fight an exterior fire from the interior.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So you might have a scenario where you knock the fire down in the compartment you're in, but that fire could be now extended into the attic.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: It could be extended into an adjacent room.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Anybody that has seen the video or the taking the training class on uh at training.fsri.org about the Lagrange fire will know that they had a fire that uh they did their 360 size up, and they saw that flames were coming out of windows on the D and C sides of the building and extending up the building.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: The building had a very combustible exterior.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was an old uh home from built originally built in 1900 and uh covered with asphalt shingles as a siding material.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the crew went in.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Initially, the front two rooms of the building uh were clear.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: They searched, the hose crew was there.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they were together, they found the fire.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: They saw that a door that led to the rear portion of the house, which contained a bathroom, a hallway, and a kitchen, uh, was hot, and the paint was blistering on that door.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was originally an exterior door when the house was first built, and then later the plumbing and everything, that portion of the house was added.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: They opened the door, they flowed water, they knocked the fire down, they got rid of the heat, and for all intents and purposes, they thought they were done.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: They were calling for a hook because they could hear some fire they thought was over their heads.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: They figured they had fire in the attic, and they were basically waiting for that hook to arrive.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, the instant commander is outside in the street, and he sees fire moving through the entry door uh that they had gone in a minute or so before.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so he tells them they've got, hey, 30 seconds to change conditions, or they have to get out of there.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And at that moment in time, they don't understand what the problem is.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: In the meantime, the incident commander is trying to get a backup line.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was originally sending a line around the D side, but again, it wasn't moving, it didn't get there fast enough to be active while the firefighters were making their way in the building.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: So now he were told them to divert as they're now pulling the line in the front yard, go to the go to the front porch and knock that fire down that's there.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: But before they could do that, the May Days started.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And what had happened was the exterior fire moved into the entry room where they had they had come in, it had moved into another part of the building, flashed over that room, burnt through their hose line, and now they're trapped.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: They're looking for windows, and fortunately, all four of the firefighters that were trapped in there found windows, three different windows, and were able to get themselves out.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: But they all got burnt pretty badly.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: But again, their survival instinct, their training about how to get themselves out of a small space and doff your SCBA to get yourself out of that space in one case, how not to give up and keep searching to find, you know, they they had surveyed the room before they earlier when they were in there because it was fairly clear of smoke and they knew there were windows there, and they kept, you know, working to find those windows to get themselves out.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, they got themselves out, but it was one of those situations that even though they were trying to do all the right things, the fire was ahead of them and they just couldn't catch up with regard to actions on the fire ground.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that is that they had this exterior fire in two locations that was spreading fire from the exterior to the interior.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, this is nothing new.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've had situations in Loudoun County, Virginia.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: I believe it was Meadowwood Court, probably a good 20 years ago.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Fire starts outside on a deck and it spreads up the back side of the home and starts breaking into the windows, into the home on the first floor and the second floor.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: The crews are upstairs and they get cut off once the fire gets into the first floor and have to jump out windows.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, there's there's dozens and dozens of examples like that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Many of them, fortunately, that were what we would, I guess, refer to as near misses, i.e., people only got injured, but you know, others have been have been fatal.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really important that you take a line to the exterior, get a line moving to the exterior, and maybe it's not the first line, but you need to get a line to the exterior rapidly to handle that fire.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: If the first line is not going to the exterior, it's important to be flowing that first line while you're making entry.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, if you have you pop open the front door and heavy black smoke is rolling out, that's fuel that's above your head, right?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: You need to start flowing and flow and move right then.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a key piece.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, there's been other tragedies where the firefighters didn't flow immediately, they didn't protect their local position.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: They moved in the structure, they don't have to move in the structure very far, with now the open door behind them, that fresh air coming in as well as an exhaust vent, the fire rolls over them, overtakes them.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Your PPE, your gear is not fireproof, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's meant to provide some limited protection to buy you time in an emergency condition to change your position, get isolated, get water flowing, or be able to back out.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so, again, sadly, there have been a number of instances there, you know, whether we go to Cherry Road or or wherever we, you know, want to start talking about that conversation again from the 1990s through recent recent days where firefighters' lives have been lost.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really important to understand that flow and move concept.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you're continue providing continual cooling, at least for your location.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: So even if you can't be effective on that exterior fire, at least you're cooling your own location.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Back to the Lagrange incident, real quick in that case study.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: We will include the link to that module in in the show notes if folks are interested in that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because one lots of lessons learned there, but that was a very small structure, too, wasn't it?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: About a thousand square feet.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it wasn't even that.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a very small structure.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was the structure started out, as I recall, as two 16 by 16 foot rooms, and then it was joined together to be one house, and they added a little piece to the back.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the one firefighter who narrowly escaped out of the bathroom after having to climb to a high bathroom window, it's just a miracle he got out of there.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So great lessons learned there.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll include that in the show notes.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely Dan, from a command perspective, then what critical factors do you think that we need to understand and focus on when we're dealing with these kind of fires?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: As I C1, the first arriver, and then IC2 is the incident continues to escalate.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, there's a pretty good list of critical factors now in 1700.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that Chris Stewart championed the chapter writing, rewriting for that, so that they could, you know, line up.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: But again, Chief Chief Brunacini, I didn't know him very well, but the dozen or so times that I had an opportunity to interact with him were were pretty great.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he always said, you know, he was thanking us for the work that we were doing with regard to a better understanding fire behavior and structures.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so he's like, you know, he's got to get his folks to understand that the fire gets a vote, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: That those were his words.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: The fire gets a vote.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so anything with regard to critical factors, that that is the key point.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Where is the fire?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: How big is the fire?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: What is the building construction?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: How's the fire going to move through the building?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a balloon frame construction?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is it lightweight construction that has will basically allow the fire to run through open joists all across a floor or a void space, uh, going from front to back or side to side of a structure?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's the smoke production?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, first and foremost, what's the life hazard, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: What what's going on in this building?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the life hazard piece plays another role when we start to talk about some of these struct some of these fires elsewhere outside of a structure.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that uh I think that's something we need to, you know, we want to consider pretty heavily.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I mean, just to bring one up now, EV fire, for example, or any automobile fire.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: If there's no life hazard in the structure, that's really a time to take a take a breath.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, in that vehicle.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's really a time to take a breath and say, you know, what do we what do we need to protect?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: What do we need to protect in terms of exposures?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what do we need to do?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because the value of that vehicle is zero.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it's an internal combustion engine car or if it's a uh EV, if it's got fairly good flame involvement, there is no value to that vehicle anymore.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, what's what do you will, what should the risk be in terms of firefighter engagement with that?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and we're seeing with the EVs that in some degree, you know, the best course of action and the fastest course of action may be once after you initially knock it down and then realize that you still have batteries burning, you just let it burn.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's gonna burn, the fire will be much smaller than it was initially.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: It will appear to be less smoky in some regard, uh, due to the fact that your initial knockdown took the plastics out of play.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, you have gases that are coming out of a battery that are burning.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if you can just let it run its course, likely it'll be done in about a half hour or so, maybe a little more.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: But if you start keep interfering with it and also exposing your firefighters to the chemicals that are coming out of that battery, putting them in close proximity to it, likely it's gonna take longer.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or, or the event may be over at the same time because the batteries still continue to burn out and your efforts may not have been effective.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: But but now you've got folks that have heavier exposure that you know you got to ask the question why.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: The nice thing about letting the batteries burn out is you've you no longer have stored energy or stranded energy in the vehicle.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: You've taken away any shock hazard, and you've taken away the potential for reignition when the second responders, the tow truck drivers and and those kind of folks get involved with the vehicle to take it away.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when we're looking at the EV fires, what concerns and where do you see if you were just going to look at a crystal ball, where are we going in the next five years or so with how we handle the EV fires and and the entire industry?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is there is there going to be a standard on on how we address these?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: The I think I think the standard guidance that currently exists in the appendix is 1700 and will be further delineated and detailed by a report coming out of FSRI probably in July.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: I believe it's going to the tech panel this month for review.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: First and foremost, if you have a car that's involved in fire and that you show up to on the roadway, the likelihood that you're going to recognize that it's an EV is low.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the there's no standardized badging, there's no standardized marking.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Many of the folks that sell EVs have models that are internal combustion engine vehicles, and then they have a similar model that's also could be a plug in hybrid or could be a full battery powered vehicle.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: So your ability to tell that's Going to be low.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: So again, first you're checking is there life hazard?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's out of the car.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: You want to approach that car, any car, really, any vehicle fire from the upwind side if you can.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're fully in gear before you approach the car, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: SCBA on air.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Park the rig uphill if you can, upwind and uphill if you can.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Approach the car from a 45-degree angle because whether it's an EV or whether it's an internal combustion engine vehicle, there are struts, airbags, various things that could fly out of there.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And use the reach of the stream and knock the bulk of the fire down.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So any any parts of the passenger compartment or the cabin, if you will, that are plastic and whatnot, once the water hits that, that'll go out very quickly.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Tires, give them, you know, knock them down.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Any exterior plastic or fiberglass that's on fire, sweeping the hose over that quickly will knock that down.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you ought to be able to have the bulk of the fire knocked down in a minute or so, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you see that you still have flames, might look like pulsing jet flames or unsteady flames, they're growing and coming back and they're coming from under the car, they're coming out of the wheel wells, then likely you've got a battery fire.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: So now you need to think about we're gonna need more water.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you need you need to get another engine company or a tanker or what have you headed toward your location because you're gonna need some more water, and you're looking at your exposures, and you know what are we gonna do?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, there was a battery energy storage system fire in California was being transported on a truck and it flipped over on a bridge.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And while they were trying to figure out how to move it, um, it exploded and started to burn.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And they sized that up and said, we don't want the runoff going into the river under this bridge, water runoff going in the river under this bridge, so we're just gonna let it burn.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they had some lanes of that bridge closed, I think, for over 24 hours, because again, a battery energy storage system, a lot more batteries, a lot bigger volume, a lot more potential energy, but they just let it go.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that for them turned out to be the best solution in terms of not causing any potential environmental damage, any worse environmental damage than the fire itself, and and getting the fire under control and the and the box moved.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: So again, the uh EV is a smaller scenario, but again, treat all car fires the same, and it's so very important to be on air when you're approaching that that fire and use the reach of the stream.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of other tactics that uh will be shown in the the FSRI report, the fire safety research institute report.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: They used blankets, they used uh undercar nozzles, they used some agents, and in large part the blankets may offer some some opportunities again for an exposure uh protection when you're outside.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to tie the blanket tight because the blanket does not stop thermal runaway, and therefore you've got gases like hydrogen building up in the blanket, and that could lead to a potential for a fireball, a deflagration, explosion of some sort.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and again, we issued alert on that about a year or so ago, right after we ran the tests along with NFPA to let the fire service know they've got to be aware of this.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it may be a situation where you may want to put a chain or a hook on the blanket and you know, remotely lift part of the blanket periodically in a safe direction and let it vent in that direction.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not having this buildup of gases.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I think the report will detail it's it's basically got a flow chart in it that they're building to help give people an idea of, you know, if this condition, then go there or or not.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it all really starts out with treating all vehicle fires the same in that regard.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, there's not just automobile fires, and there was an incident in Green County, Georgia, I guess a little more than a year ago now.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: I guess actually in September, it's going to be two years, and battalion chief Chris Eddy lost his life in that fire.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the fire was a uh tractor trailer that was going down a highway, and the driver noticed, I guess, that the brakes or the tires were smoking on his tractor, and he was looking for a place to pull over.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: And before he could find a place to pull over, they caught fire.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so he stopped his rig in the highway, and he was pulling a refrigerated trailer.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the refrigerated trailer was full of uh frozen meat.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And as the tires, uh the fire from the tires spread into the trailer, got the refrigeration unit involved, got the trailer involved, got the diesel, one of the, I think, one or two of the diesel fuel tanks involved by the time the fire department arrived.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: And fire department arrived and they started to knock down the fire from the exterior using the reach of the stream.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, there was heavy smoke uh around the trailer.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: The the trailer has been involved in the fire, and as Chief Eddie was going to uh open the the rear doors on the trailer before he had the chance to actually open the door, there was an explosion.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the one door swung and and hit and killed the battalion chief.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: The other door that was still firmly latched blew off and flew across the highway.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And again, there was cell phone video of this.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that shortly after the incident, I think it was on most of the fire service websites.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, NIOSH did a pretty thorough report, and uh they asked us to get involved.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so we had one of our advisory board members that happened to be in Georgia go down and meet with the fire chief and collect some samples of the foam that lines the trailer.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so for a refrigerated trailer, there is a fairly thick chunk of foam that fills the void between the inner and outer walls and the ceiling, the floor, and the exterior walls.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so the fire had gotten into these fuel.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Any foam plastic, as you know, is has a pretty high energy level, a higher, higher heat of combustion than plain wood, sometimes one and a half to two and a half times.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's got a lot of energy per pound that it can release.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: They don't burn effectively in 21% oxygen, which is the amount of oxygen that we have in our air that surrounds us.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So they really need extra oxygen to burn clean.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: A good example of that would be acetylene gas.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: As you know, if you just light acetylene gas and don't add additional oxygen, you get a sort of weak flame, very sooty.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of fuel left in that in that gap in the unburnt gases.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if you add additional oxygen, it gets really hot and burns clean.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So there was no recognition that there's a ventilation-limited fire condition in that trailer, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we know that if you open it up, it's it's gonna get worse.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: And in this case, perhaps because the trailer had self-vented due to the fire, unfortunately, the fire chief was in just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: But again, we want to start thinking about this closed vessel.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is a pressure vessel, in effect.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do we cool that off?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Penetrating nozzle, right?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: How can we get water in there to cool it off without entraining extra air?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, these are some of the things, you know, that we want to you want to be thinking about.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, sadly, in Maine recently, another firefighter lost his life, and and several other firefighters are injured and recovering, and it was in a silo, right?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, silo doesn't have a lot of windows and doors on the outside.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if we've got a fire in a silo, what fire dynamics apply there, right?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Seems like it's a vent-limited condition.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now, we don't know any of the details about what type of silo they had or any of that kind of thing.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: But in general, if you've got a fire in a closed container like that, if you can cool it off by you know poking a hole in it and getting water in there, again, depending on what kind of fuel is inside, that may be the way to go, as opposed to opening a ground level door, low, low vent, good intake, and then it the fire is looking for a high exhaust.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we talked about earlier, we know that changes in ventilation usually trigger flashovers, backdrafts, and smoke explosions.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a decision that's got to be made carefully.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things is if you can get effective water shortly after you open up, then you're likely gonna be okay.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: But the key word there is effective water.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in something like a big commercial structure or a silo or something like that, you cannot always be guaranteed that your initial water flow is going to be effective.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna get to the seat of the fire right away.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a challenge.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or is that in Garden Grove, California, they've got an incident with a methyl methacrolate tank.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think they've evacuated 40,000 people.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And what are they concerned with?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're concerned with the fact that there may be a self-heating chemical reaction going on with that tank that the temperature is building, and they're concerned that that will cause the tank to fail.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And once the tank fails and there's a leak, now we are gonna introduce more air into that process.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And again, the the vapors coming off of this are highly volatile, and so that could cause a you know potential explosion, fire, who knows?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: But again, in that particular case, given the scenario and the folks that are responding, they recognize that they're doing the best they can to cool it, take the life hazard away by the evacuations, and continue to work the problem very slowly and methodically, thinking through every step.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, I think that's critical.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that's and in in the UK, they've got a system that they've they teach and they employ for their instant commanders.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And basically they look the fire scene, and before they key up the radio and tell people what to do, they want the fire instant commanders to ask themselves two questions.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: What am I trying to achieve by giving this order?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And what do I think the result will be?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Will this will this tactic, will this series of tactics or this strategy result in the outcome that I want?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Just to give yourself a couple of seconds to really think it through again so you're not kind of on autopilot, you know, you're not doing this is what we always do, but that you really assess the situation that you've got.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: You've taken all the data that you collected while you're arriving to the scene and and people talking to you, or you talking to witnesses or whatever, and using that data to come up with your incident action plan.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so one thing that we've we've been pushing, Dan, is the when you get there, evaluating the critical factors based on that our strategic decision-making model that you know is is published all over the place.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: But so what is the problem, which is what you've been talking about the whole time.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: So identifying what is the problem, because we we uh our industry seems to get there and say, well, they called us to make it better, so we just have to take action when we get there, but we have to identify the problem first.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So what is the problem?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second part of it is what can we do to solve the problem, and then what's standing in the way of us solving the problem.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's kind of part of the our critical thinking decision-making class.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that class is based on you know, on structures, different critical factors, different buildings, different fire conditions, different life safety profiles, all of that.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's applicable to every every kind of incident that we would respond to.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think like you identified from the the hazmat incident in California going on, it seems like you want to get there and do something, but it's like, well, let's take a if you just take a second and let's think about what's the plan gonna be and let's let's not make it worse, but what are we gonna do to you know try to make it better?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and of course, this is where the training is very important because if you don't have that experience, that life experience or that fire ground experience, you know, what what are you drawing from to make that do I want to do plan A or plan B?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Where does that where does that come from?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why, you know, training going to, you know, and we see the folks going to FDIC and other regional training trainings and whatnot.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's why that's all so important to try to, you know, groupthink, if you will, learn from other people's experience.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you start building that.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: We used to call it the slide tray in your head, the Rolodex in your head, I guess the streaming service in your head.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure what we would call it today, but the hard drive.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: The hard drive, yeah.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I had a thought about stored energy, and I think our underestimation on stored energy and where stored energy is.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the incidents that happened out west in California was uh was a tire that simply exploded on on a large truck.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what's the cascade events of something like that?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: An outside fire in a large vehicle that leads to a tire explosion and ultimately an LODD.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's uh I believe the instant you're referring to is with the loss of life of uh firefighter Andrew Pontius from uh LA County.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Again, that happened.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're coming up on the two-year anniversary in June.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: So they were called to a large piece of construction equipment that had started on fire.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it was in a, as I remember, a gravel pit area.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: So there are really no exposures to speak of.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: While the fire department was arriving, one of the tires exploded and threw shrapnel at least 150 feet and broke a windshield of a pickup truck that was parked about 150 feet away.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so again, the fire department arrives.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: They have a big earth mover type machine.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: The tires are about six feet tall or so, and they they want to put the fire out.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And again, similar to what we talked about for the automobiles, you know, these tires basically have a blast range.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And when we started to look into the injuries uh from these tires, big commercial tires like that, if you will, tractor trailer tires or construction equipment tires, when they operate, when the mechanics operate on those tires, uh they operate you know to take them off a rim, put them on a rim, what assemble the rim.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: They operate on them in bit large cages so that if they do explode, the cage will hold the pieces in and it won't uh hit somebody.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of records in the medical field of people losing arms or jaws or things like that due to these tires or these rims coming apart.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so there were some studies done in Russia, interestingly, where they had a similar situation and they looked at the blast radius.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so LA County took some of that information and put out a safety bulletin.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, they want you to approach these fires from a 45-degree angle again.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you don't want to be in front of the tire.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: In front of the tire, 10 feet, 30 feet is kind of a lethal range.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And knowing that in front of the tire that could extend, depending on the size of the tire, that could extend up to 350 feet.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, do you have a person that you need to go in quick and grab and drag away, or if there's no life hazard there, again, this is a time to stay clear of the situation, stay to the side of the situation, and start thinking about what the best practice is.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you need to get a you know monitor nozzle going to try to cool the environment?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or is this is this beyond everything?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's no exposures, you know, let it do its thing.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that you know, that's that's important to think because when we I get, you know, a tire is effectively a pressure vessel, and it's but it's made out of rubber, right?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or some rubber composite.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so if there's a fire that is heating the tire, that tire is losing its structural integrity.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: But also, if the fire is heating the tire, what is it doing to the pressure inside that pressure vessel?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Pressure's going up, right?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: Temperature goes up, pressure goes up.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's the ideal gas law.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're related that way.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: So not only is the tire being heated and the pressure's increasing, and the the wall or a portion of the tire is getting weakened, we're also off-gassing the tires made of fuel.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so now we're creating a fuel vent-limited fire condition inside that tire.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: So when the fire does hit it, it could just be a release of the pressure that's built up, or it could actually be an explosive event from igniting that fuel in the tire as well.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, there's a lot of potential things that can go on there.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hazard is really high.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I don't think that's recognized in large part by the fire service.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, just you know, where do fire dynamics apply?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Anywhere there's a fire, they apply, and you've got to start thinking about how does this work in this situation?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, exterior fire to the tire, and that that tire is really dangerous.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, especially the bigger the tire is, it goes goes without saying, the more stored energy in that vehicle, so or in that uh press pressure rubber pressure vessel.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, I think that to honor firefighter Pontius and and never forget that you know that's another lesson that needs to be shared across the fire service.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's trucks running up and down the highways everywhere, there's construction equipment everywhere.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Again, fortunately, most of them are not on fire, but for that rare occasion where it is, again, it's another case where training is needed because um it, you know, how many times did that crew go to a construction piece of a construction equipment fire?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they're using the lessons they had learned from structures or other fires, and maybe those lessons weren't complete enough to help them understand what the hazard and the risk was here.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: One of the alternative fuels that we see in these larger vehicles, particularly trash trucks, city buses, CNG.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: We we know that there are special hazards with that, special extinguishment techniques.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: What can you tell us about what we're finding out about CNG fires with the larger vehicle?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think the key thing with the CNG is to that they're not you don't treat a propane tank and a CNG tank the same.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: So a propane tank, you want to cool it, you're trying to cool it all the time.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: And with the CNG tank, cooling it could actually lead it to explode because the way they're they're valved and release uh pressure is different, they're designed differently.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there was an instant where uh a couple of firefighters were injured in uh LA City, maybe a couple of years ago, with the scenario where they were didn't know, didn't know what kind of fuel tanks they had.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, this is a place where you got to take a pause or or have a good pre-plan.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you know all your city buses and trash trucks are CNG, then you want to practice in how do we handle a CNG tank, how do we appropriately control that.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: But again, if you have some vehicle that's going through town that that caught fire and you don't know what it is, it's important to understand what it is.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe you start off with uh exposure protection while letting that burn and trying to figure out what kind of uh fuel tank do we have on that that vehicle.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: And again, getting getting some people clear.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Giving it some space.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I guess maybe another lesson.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of tools that firefighters have access to.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe a deck gun, maybe a portable monitor.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in many ways the firefighters think of those as defensive tools as opposed to offensive tools.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think again that's something else that that might need to be clarified for folks.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there could be situations where you've got a mid-rise apartment building on fire or all sorts of things where you might want to use one of those offensively, or perhaps a commercial vehicle fire where you might want to have enough standoff distance and use one of those offensively while you're trying to figure out where you need to be and and and what else you need to do.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: But again, that could give you a quick hit to knock down the plastics, the tires, and sort of clarify what's burning and what the situation is.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, is that do you do you see that in your interaction that people think mostly about, oh, that's that's plan C.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's if we go defensive, as opposed to, you know what, the thing we could use right now is one of these ground monitors to give this a quick hit.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think oftentimes the you've said it a couple times, we we continue to take residential tactics to everything we go to because probably 95% of what out what's out there from training standpoint or what you see on YouTube is talking about residential fires, whether you're talking about you know, fire dynamics, fire tactics, uh victims search, isolated searches, you you name it.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And our industry needs to give a little bit more focus, I think, to this changing fire environment that we're dealing with, which is not just the fire, but everything that has to do with the fire, all the critical factors that we have to deal with.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Every every day there's probably something new that we don't even know is available or coming out that's going to create another challenge for us.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll always try to line it up to the we we uh we evaluate the the conditions and we say standard conditions all the time.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, what does that really mean?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, standard conditions are are the critical factors that are there.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what is the problem?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh it seems people understand this one.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: We go to Mrs.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Smith's house for abdominal pain or we go to Mrs.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Smith's house for chest pain.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're just not gonna shock her.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the fire department, old school, because of maybe lack of training, we we continue to take this same action.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in EMS, we do evaluate critical factors of the patient, and we take action the best we can based on that.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we we we identify these critical factors, and then for for whatever these standard conditions are that are critical factors, we figure out what action we're gonna take that lines up with those particular factors, not we only have the small playbook, and this is what we apply to everything.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's what's the problem?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: What are we gonna do about the problem so that we end up with some sort of a standard outcome?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't think we can re reiterate enough that because you haven't had the experience with it, we haven't had the experience, not you, Dan, but like our industry hasn't had the experience with it.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have to learn from other people.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're talking about today, just doing a tabletop talking about CNG fires or the big tires on fire, the tractor trailer tires on fire.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: The here we have Rumpke is the trash and recycling, one of the big trash and recycling companies.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, most everything they have there, they produce methane and they have methane spots there because they're basically making their own fuel for all their own vehicles.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's a it's a genius kind of thing for them, but we have to understand what that what that risk is of these factors, not and not apply the standard conditions we do at residential house fires to all these other buildings.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very true.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think another link we will want to put in your in your podcast page is for the Chula Vista warehouse fire.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Chula Vista Fire Department was a great fire department to work with.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Southern California has a great system of looking at after actions with the uh blue sheet and the green sheet and bringing together a a group of folks from mutual aid departments in the area to facilitate that process.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, there was a case where they're in a building, it's full of smoke, smoke full of hot fuel.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Visibility is limited to non-existent.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: There are some other features that come into play where the thermal imager is not providing the officer with reliable information due to some airflow and mixing in the area where he's located.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they're looking for venting the roof to make it better for them so they can make an effective attack on the fire, not knowing that they're about 80 feet from the fire.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: In between them are solid joists on the ceiling, so the water they can't flow water across the ceiling very far, and shelving that goes up within, you know, shelving and product that goes up within a foot or inches of the ceiling, again, providing obstruction.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what our modeling shows pretty clearly, which is why it's a because the building's big enough, as they successively made heat holes starting from the area near the area of origin and working toward the crew that got injured, you just see how the fire is spreading across from the A side of the building to the C side of the building and getting bigger and bigger, and you know, eventually resulting in burning down the warehouse.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it comes back to this once you've got flame out of a hole, or once you've got a really good vent, but you don't have effective water on the fire, that's the time to hold up a little bit.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we we have a more and the reason we know that this is this education is still lacking, you know.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: We I mean we had the Sofa Superstore fire with the Charleston 9.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And folks that are old enough remember the video that once they took all the plate glass windows in what they felt was a desperate attempt to get in and rescue, that caused a rapid transition of flashing over that whole showroom floor.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, flames were filling all those vents very quickly afterwards.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: In San Antonio, firefighter Deem, where he lost his life.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: There was another firefighter that was on the radio and he's calling for help.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: He's issuing his May Day, and what he's asking them for is to basically open up the building.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: He's in a vent-limited condition.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: That he's got no visibility, he can't find his way out, and he's surrounded by hot fuel gases.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: So the last thing he should be asking for is ventilation because, again, that could result in killing him.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: But it's in the NIOSH report, you know, what's going on there?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: They need to flow water.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately, in that incident, a fourth due engine company picked up a hose line, and the officer of that engine company recognized the environment that this whole thing's about to flash over, and his crew start flowing water into that gym in that strip mall and uh cooling it off, and then they were able to get some other folks out.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sadly, the timing wasn't such that that firefighter Dean could be saved, but others were saved as a result of that action.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, understanding the fire behavior, whether it's in a structure, whether it's a fire affecting uh a vehicle.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: Just last week we released a report looking at uh lithium-ion battery-powered micromobility device fires in passenger trains, in a passenger car, to see how rapidly that hazard spreads and grows.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, the transportation industry, we haven't seen this before.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, what you know, what does this look like?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: What can we learn from?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: How can we change our operations to make it safer for the passengers?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or perhaps what size batteries do we need to restrict and that kind of thing.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: We see it daily in the airplane.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, almost daily.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's seems like there's a change every couple weeks about the aircraft industry saying, hey, you gotta, you know, oh, don't put your vape pens up in the, you know, in the overhead anymore.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: You got to keep them with you, or any kind of battery uh pack, you know, you got to keep it with you so we can see it, so we can see if it's gonna smoke, or you can tell if it's overheating, so they can they have uh bags and a suppression system that they use on the aircraft.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: So they want to make sure that they're these the source of the fire is readily accessible so they can get it in a bag, fill it with water, close it down, and and uh keep the fire from spreading.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we're understanding there's two to three hundred of those incidents a year now uh on aircraft.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: So we're all learning, and then that's why you know, training, keeping up, being a student of the job is so important.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Not everybody has federal mandates that can go across rapidly, like you know, perhaps the airline industry does, that this is what's gonna happen now, or at least a company that says, you know, this is we're gonna what we're gonna do now.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: The American Fire Service is made up of, I don't know, about 30,000 uh fire departments and 30,000 chiefs.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: And uh everybody's got their own SOPs.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: The the point of 1700 was to try to provide a a common platform for fire departments to look at and a starting point.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, what's in their first due, what their staffing is, what their resources are, all that plays a role in, as you know, and deciding what their response is going to be.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: But at least 1700 gives them a starting point for that.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: But clearly, you know, going across the U.S., we're not there.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, other countries have sort of statewide, if you will, or federal fire service, so they all follow the same rule direction, may have the same equipment.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Again, the U.S.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: is a different animal, and for and for many reasons, it's a good thing that it is based on the variety of uh of terrains, towns, and whatnot.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing that we're seeing is that there's some homogenization, whether it's where data centers are showing up across the United States or where large mega warehouses are showing up across the United States.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: All these have their potential hazards.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: And in many cases, that the hazards are going to be to the fire service.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: So lots to learn, a lot, a lot of things to do.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, my head is swimming as always with all this information you bring, and we really appreciate you being here on a Memorial Day of all days, too.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Dan Dan's taking his day off to spend some time with us.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: As we as we look to wrap this up, is there one takeaway that you'd want firefighters and command officers to remember about fire dynamics at outside fires, outside the structure fire environment?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: What would that takeaway be?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for the the first the first two company officers and the uh instant commanders, be thinking about you know applying the fire dynamics, right?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do I is is this really a different kind of vent-limited fire?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I need to handle that?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: Am I really looking at a pressure vessel here?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: What are what are the hazards that this is going to bring?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what you're doing, you're doing your size up, whether it's a size up of a structure or if it's size up of a heavy piece of equipment or a tractor trailer on fire on the side of a road, you know, do that size up and then follow your strategy and your course of tactics based on the size up.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Many times, effectively, the the officer did a size up or the instant commander did a size up, but they either didn't communicate how this fire was gonna be different, and everybody just did the just did the normal thing, as opposed to saying, you know what, given the information that we've gotten from this fire, this is what we're gonna do.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think so I think there's two pieces, and this is this is for structures as well.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: Use known information to develop your instant action plan to the extent you can.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Once you cross the threshold going in a structure, or perhaps move around to the other side of the exterior fire, what have you, you may have some unknown things that are occur.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if your expectation of what you thought this tactic was going to do, if it's not happening in the first 15 seconds, 30 seconds, something like that, you've really got to be ready with a plan B and be ready to pivot.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what do we do now?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: This this didn't work.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: In many cases, from uh instance where there have been injuries or or a line of duty death, you'll see scenarios where they kept trying to do plan A over and over or for an extended period of time when they really needed a change, they needed to do something different.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, study, understand fire behavior.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's critical, it's it's a key part of your job, and be ready for a plan B.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, thanks again.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, before you go, will you uh stay with us for a timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunacini?
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is a timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunicini, and this one's pretty simple.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Don't take little habits into a big fire.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have muscle memory, and I think especially when we're talking about vehicle fires, we look at that being less risky, more routine, something we go to on a regular basis with little consequence.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we're we're seeing more uh roadway fires, especially because of the energy systems that we have, that quite possibly could be impacted by bad habits that we have from regular combustion burning vehicle fires that we've gone to so much in the past.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Dan, thank you for being here today.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate it.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the rest of your Memorial Day uh weekend, and we look forward to getting back together with you soon.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for being flexible to accommodate my schedule.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate you being here.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Dan.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that concludes today's Beach Gifter Podcast.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: We want to thank you for listening and being a part of it.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: Please share it with a friend and subscribe, and we'll talk to you next week on Beach Gifter.