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Mini: Phobophobia · Why We Do What We Do

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to Why We do what we do Many. I
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  Speaker 1: am your host Abraham and I'm Shane. We are a
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  Speaker 1: psychology podcast. We talk about all of the things that
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  Speaker 1: people do, and in the month of October we focus
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  Speaker 1: those efforts on the spookier side of things.
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  Speaker 2: Oooh, and this one is so spooky because it's it's
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  Speaker 2: very This one's a very meta spooky thing it is.
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  Speaker 1: It is a meta spooky thing. For our mini episodes
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  Speaker 1: this year, we decided in October we were going to
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  Speaker 1: tackle a bunch of little phobia things. And we've sort
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  Speaker 1: of have a little bit of a theme going on
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  Speaker 1: with with fear generally speaking, as that seems to relate
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  Speaker 1: to spooky things. And so today we are talking about phobophobia.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, phobo phobia, which is the fear of being afraid.
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  Speaker 3: Mm hmmmm.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, if you would like to support what we do,
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  Speaker 1: you can join us on Patreon, pick up some merch,
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  Speaker 1: leave us a rating and review, tell a friend, and
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  Speaker 1: I'll talk more about those as we get toward the
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  Speaker 1: end of this. But also we usually release these many episodes,
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  Speaker 1: these a little bite sized smallish episodes every Monday, and
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  Speaker 1: then our full length episodes come out on Wednesdays. But
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  Speaker 1: let's get dive into our topic here, because we are
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  Speaker 1: we're on a clock. We're on the clock now, I know,
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  Speaker 1: I know. We're started off with this quote. We all
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  Speaker 1: know it from FDR. There's nothing to fear but fear.
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  Speaker 2: It's off. I'm not going to go into the entire quote,
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  Speaker 2: but the idea is that phoba phobia is the fear
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  Speaker 2: of being afraid, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the
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  Speaker 2: fear of being fearful. There are a couple different ways
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  Speaker 2: that it's described that it shows up for people. So
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  Speaker 2: this is how phoba phobia shows up for people.
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  Speaker 1: So some people are afraid of the symptoms of being
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  Speaker 1: afraid when we talk about or maybe talked about I'm
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  Speaker 1: not sure when the publications are occurring here, but in
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  Speaker 1: our episode on fear, we talked about how the systems
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  Speaker 1: in our body that are activated when we're afraid include racing,
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  Speaker 1: heart de breathing, like lots of things of that nature,
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  Speaker 1: and so that can be the thing specifically that people
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  Speaker 1: are afraid of. The rapid breathing, increased heart rate, dizziness
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  Speaker 1: and things like that that come with it.
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  Speaker 2: That's part of it, and the other part or the
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  Speaker 2: other possible way shows up is that people are afraid
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  Speaker 2: of developing an additional phobic fear, because what you're going
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  Speaker 2: to learn is that AUR a phobic disorder, and what
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  Speaker 2: you're going to learn is that phobo phobia is kind
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  Speaker 2: of like attack on for people who already have an
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  Speaker 2: explicit fear, like they are already afraid of something, They've
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  Speaker 2: already got this phobia. Then they've got phobophobia on top
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  Speaker 2: of that because they are afraid of gaining another fear
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  Speaker 2: or having those experiences. So like when I was doing
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  Speaker 2: the research on this, everybody was like, this is really
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  Speaker 2: complex because it's not like a specific thing. It's like
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  Speaker 2: a layer of phobia.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's meta, as we said, yeah, it's meta.
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  Speaker 1: Now as you might imagine someone who has a phobophobia
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  Speaker 1: already has another phobia because again they might be afraid
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  Speaker 1: of getting more phobias. And when you have that kind
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  Speaker 1: of sort of fear and metaphear going on, you might
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  Speaker 1: expect there to be a lot of avoidance behavior, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of just try not to put myselves in situations
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  Speaker 1: where I'm going to be afraid or develop more fears.
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  Speaker 2: Generally, they're going to avoid things like that are related
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  Speaker 2: to the other phobias, or things that might trigger phobia feelings.
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  Speaker 2: They're going to avoid all of those things. But what
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  Speaker 2: makes phobo phobia unique is especially compared to other phobias,
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  Speaker 2: is there isn't a specific fear of a thing like
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  Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier. Rather, it's the onset of symptoms related
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  Speaker 2: to other conditions or the onset of a new disorder
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  Speaker 2: maybe triggering the condition and lead to panic attacks and avoidance.
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  Speaker 2: It's kind of like this, This is where I'm gonna
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  Speaker 2: get real nerdy. So in the Green Lantern comics series,
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  Speaker 2: Jeff Johns wrote this series where the Green Lantern main
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  Speaker 2: characters started having to battle with the other lanterns on
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  Speaker 2: the emotional spectrum. So there was the red lanterns, there
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  Speaker 2: was orange lanterns, yellow lanterns, and all that. Well, throughout
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  Speaker 2: their exploration they discover the blue lanterns. The blue lanterns
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  Speaker 2: signify hope. Every color is like a different red as rage,
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  Speaker 2: orange as avarice, yellow as fear, Green is will. So
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  Speaker 2: the Green Lanterns their power is will power, and the
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  Speaker 2: Blue Lanterns have hope. Will. In the comics, hope can
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  Speaker 2: only work the green The blue lanterns only work if
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  Speaker 2: there's a green lantern around, So like it's like it's
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  Speaker 2: effectively useless unless there is a unless like hope. They
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  Speaker 2: basically like, I don't know if the messaging is good,
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  Speaker 2: but it's like, hope is useless if you don't have
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  Speaker 2: will I don't know, so like it's kind of a
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  Speaker 2: that's that's anyway. They don't get into all that. But here,
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  Speaker 2: you can't have phobaphobia unless you already have a phobia.
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  Speaker 2: And that's kind of what this is, like, is like
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  Speaker 2: the phobophobia only ever exists as an add on to
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  Speaker 2: your original phobia.
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  Speaker 1: All right, well here's an add on to this episode
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  Speaker 1: in the form of an ad. Okay, So coming back
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  Speaker 1: to our discussion on phobophobia here, many people who have
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  Speaker 1: phobophobia also have generalized anxiety disorder, or, as Shane might
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  Speaker 1: like to call it, his spicy what ifs.
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  Speaker 2: Huh, Yeah, it's so fun. He's like, what if everything
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  Speaker 2: is terrible? It's like, yeah, that's how it goes. It's fun.
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  Speaker 1: And that is my joke about the quote from the
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  Speaker 1: Only thing we Have to fear is fear itself. As
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, that sounds like generalized anxiety.
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  Speaker 2: It does, doesn't it? So how do we treat this well?
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  Speaker 2: From psychology, most of the treatments for this are specific
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  Speaker 2: to panic or anxiety disorders. They include cognitive modifications, They
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  Speaker 2: look at exposure therapy, and coping skills like relaxation and
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  Speaker 2: breathing control strategies. A lot of things you might see
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  Speaker 2: in the anxiety world or panic disorder world, you're going
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  Speaker 2: to see for the same treatments here in this phobia world.
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  Speaker 3: Very fair.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we also have some interesting tidboots, tid
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  Speaker 1: points points as I sometimes.
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  Speaker 2: Always say it, You always say tid.
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  Speaker 1: Points, tid points, take on points, and tidbits tid points. Yeah. Anyway,
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  Speaker 1: So stress hormones might actually be related to lessened fear
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  Speaker 1: responses and symptoms. If you are stressed out and have
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  Speaker 1: higher levels of cortisol, you are less likely to experience
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  Speaker 1: fear symptoms. And I think that would probably register for
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  Speaker 1: some people.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I feel like that's almost the ethos and the Saw
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  Speaker 3: movies in a way.
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  Speaker 2: Uh huh.
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  Speaker 3: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: In a twenty ten study by Deck Corvain and colleagues
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  Speaker 1: twenty ten, they tested a placebo and cortisol administration prior
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  Speaker 1: to exposure therapy for patients with a fear of heights,
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  Speaker 1: and found that those who had taken the cortisol prior
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  Speaker 1: to exposure reported reduced fear and less anxiety about the
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  Speaker 1: exposure than those who didn't. It's almost it's kind of
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  Speaker 1: intuitive in a way to me, but I also kind
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  Speaker 1: of see it. I think the when you're in a
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  Speaker 1: situation where you kind of have to fight for your
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  Speaker 1: survival or where you are elevated and escalated as if
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  Speaker 1: you were in a situation of survival, that like things
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  Speaker 1: that are not immediately present are just less relevant overall.
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  Speaker 3: Anyway, Sure, yeah, I could see that side of it.
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  Speaker 2: I was surprised to think that, Like, oh, like ause,
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  Speaker 2: I think of like when I'm stressed out, I feel
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  Speaker 2: like everything is is like my experience is more heightened.
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  Speaker 2: So like I feel like I am more likely to
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  Speaker 2: have an increased heart rate or rapid breathing or something
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  Speaker 2: like that because I am stressed out and I feel
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  Speaker 2: like I'm elevated. So like, to me, I was reading that,
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  Speaker 2: I was going, huh, that's a weird thing to think.
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  Speaker 2: Like if I'm more stressed out, I'm less likely to
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  Speaker 2: experience fear responses. But it does make sense from that
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  Speaker 2: side too, where it's like, well, the fear response is
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  Speaker 2: in relation to something that's not here, I'm more stressed out,
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  Speaker 2: that's not relevant, so I'm not going to have the
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  Speaker 2: experience related to that thing.
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  Speaker 1: You know, maybe the primary working ingredient, if you will,
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  Speaker 1: is almost more like distraction than it is stress. Sure
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  Speaker 1: in the instances where it helps with fear, I'm not sure,
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  Speaker 1: but anyway.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. It's a super interesting thing that
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  Speaker 2: it was. The study was cool. It was a double
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  Speaker 2: blind a double blind study too, so like they did
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  Speaker 2: some really cool stuff inside of it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, very good.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well, if you'd like to tell us about your phobophobia
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  Speaker 1: or other phobias, we'll be covering similar You can reach
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  Speaker 1: us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com, or
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  Speaker 1: on the social media platforms.
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  Speaker 3: We love hearing from people.
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  Speaker 1: It can also leave us a rating interview, I can subscribe,
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• 8:56
  Speaker 1: merch or jonas on at Patreon. At least appreciate the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: support if you can, But of course, if you can't
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  Speaker 1: do that, telling a friend is also great.
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  Speaker 3: Yet I do appreciate everyone who has joined us for this.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening, Thank you for recording with me today,
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  Speaker 1: Shane always for your work on these notes. Anything you'd
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  Speaker 1: like to add, or anything we forgot before we wrap up?
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  Speaker 3: Not today? No, all right, don't fear the reaper. This
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  Speaker 3: is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out i E.
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  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
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  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
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  Speaker 2: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
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  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day