Latest / Make Water Work Podcast / Catalyst Collab: Jennifer Tabanico | Make Water Work 052

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Catalyst Collab: Jennifer Tabanico | Make Water Work 052 · Make Water Work Podcast

0:02
I'm Isaac with 120 Water
0:04
>> and I'm Chelsea with Rogue Water and
0:06
we're excited to welcome you to the Make
0:08
Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
0:31
Well, hello everyone and welcome to the
0:33
Make Water Work and Catalyst Collab. I
0:37
am your host, Isaac Pellerin, and I am
0:39
so excited to be having a co-host in
0:42
Chelsea Boozer to have this Catalyst
0:45
collab leading up to the Catalyst
0:48
Experience. It's not a conference um
0:51
where we have um guides and not
0:54
speakers. But um Chelsea, thank you so
0:57
much for um for having joining me on
1:01
this opportunity to um to kind of review
1:04
what Catalyst is about and dive deep
1:06
with some of our um current and previous
1:10
um guides.
1:11
>> Yeah, I'm so excited. Today we have a
1:14
coming up Catalyst guide, uh Jennifer
1:16
Tabano. She is president of action
1:18
research um and spent more than 20 years
1:22
using behavioral science to help water
1:24
and environmental groups and others
1:26
actually change what people do the
1:28
behaviors of the actions we want uh to
1:31
get them to do whereas a lot of times we
1:33
just start with messaging. So Jennifer
1:35
super excited to have you on and to get
1:37
into this conversation more.
1:40
>> Yeah. So, welcome Jennifer. And um as we
1:43
start uh every uh podcast episode that
1:47
that we've had on the Make Water Work
1:48
podcast, every every guest that we have
1:51
has a story about how water found them.
1:53
And so I love just starting with that.
1:55
So Jennifer, how did water find you?
1:58
>> Yeah. Okay. Sure. Great question. Well,
2:00
I actually didn't grow up thinking much
2:03
about water. I grew up in Arizona, so
2:06
you didn't look around and see water. It
2:07
was almost invisible. Uh, but you turned
2:10
on the tap and water was there.
2:12
>> Probably the most of the biggest water
2:15
related issue I thought about growing up
2:17
was whose pool we were going to go jump
2:19
into after school and that was pretty
2:21
much it. It just wasn't something people
2:23
thought much about or talk much about.
2:26
>> That changed and when I moved to
2:28
California as a young adult starting off
2:32
uh a new life here, suddenly I'm
2:34
surrounded by water. We have the ocean
2:36
right there and creeks and lakes and
2:39
everybody was talking about water. They
2:41
were talking about drought. They were
2:43
talking about taking out their grass and
2:46
planting native plants. They were
2:48
talking about preventing pollution from
2:50
going into the ocean. There was all this
2:53
conversation about water. And I think
2:55
that that was the point I was reflecting
2:58
back and thinking when did I even start
3:00
realizing water was an issue? you and it
3:02
was about that time because I'm in this
3:04
culture where people are talking about
3:05
it and it was the first time I realized
3:07
that water is a a resource uh and one
3:10
that needs to be protected.
3:12
>> So tangent to that like many people
3:15
coming to California I became fascinated
3:18
with SeaWorld and I'll show you the
3:20
connection here in a minute.
3:21
>> Love it.
3:22
>> But I decided I wanted to be a whale
3:24
trainer and I fell in love with Shamu. I
3:27
wanted to train Shamu and I went to a
3:29
show and afterward I went down and I
3:31
spoke with one of the trainers and I
3:32
said how do I get your job and he said
3:34
well you need to major in biology or
3:36
psychology and so I chose psychology
3:40
went got back into college and started
3:43
down this path of understanding animal
3:46
behavior but also human behavior through
3:49
those studies is where I fell into uh
3:51
what is now a field called conservation
3:54
psychology and it was really about how
3:57
humans and na human and nature interacts
4:01
and what drives people's environmental
4:03
behaviors. So I thought I was going to
4:05
study whales in the water and instead I
4:09
wound up learning about human behaviors
4:11
and how they interact with natural
4:13
resources. Water uh being just one of
4:15
them. So kind of a roundabout way that
4:18
um yeah water found me I think is is
4:21
kind of how I would answer that.
4:23
>> Yeah. Go for it.
4:24
>> Yeah. And we've um Jennifer, you and I
4:27
have talked a lot about how, you know,
4:30
in this sector, but probably everywhere,
4:32
people do not think communicating is a
4:35
science, right? They don't think there's
4:36
a strategy behind it. And so, um, I love
4:38
your work at Action Research
4:40
specifically because of that focus on
4:42
behavioral science and that psychology
4:44
background that you have. So, you know,
4:46
in the in the water sector, a lot of our
4:48
campaigns, if they're around
4:49
conservation or safety or affordability,
4:52
we're just focusing on education and
4:54
awareness. Where does that approach fall
4:57
short? And what does community-based
4:59
social marketing do differently?
5:05
>> Yeah.
5:06
>> So, so I think water is not alone in
5:08
this. I think across a lot of
5:10
environmental domains the tendency is to
5:12
think when we have a environmental
5:14
problem or safety challenge. The first
5:16
thing we jump to is well people need to
5:19
know more and people need to care more.
5:21
So we just go straight as you said
5:23
Chelsea we start creating messages,
5:25
brochures, websites, workshops with the
5:27
hope that eventually people are going to
5:29
be enlightened and they're going to jump
5:30
on board. Where those fall short though
5:33
I I mean I would say knowledge and
5:35
awareness or knowledge and supportive
5:36
attitudes are really important. People
5:38
need to know what to do.
5:40
>> They need to at least care about its
5:42
importance and have some intention to
5:44
act. So that's a foundation, but often
5:47
it's not enough because knowledge and
5:49
supportive attitudes were just two of
5:51
the barriers to behavior change. And
5:54
what we find in behavioral science is
5:56
that those challenges, those barriers
5:59
vary at the level of individual actions.
6:01
So, the reason someone doesn't replace
6:03
their turf is going to be different
6:04
likely than the challenges they face
6:06
with reporting a leak or their concerns
6:09
about switching to paperless billing.
6:12
And so, they may know about all those
6:14
things and care about all those things,
6:15
but still don't act. And that's really
6:17
where behavioral science comes in and
6:20
community- based social marketing, which
6:22
would begin by saying, okay, what is
6:24
that behavior? And then what are those
6:26
underlying drivers that make it more
6:28
challenging and what would they see as
6:30
beneficial? And then we target the
6:31
strategies directly to that those
6:33
challenges.
6:34
>> I think that important to note with that
6:36
what that means is then you can't use
6:38
exactly the same messaging. If you're
6:40
wanting them to sign up for paperless
6:41
billing or you want them to stop
6:43
watering their lawn on Wednesdays, those
6:45
are two unique things and their reasons
6:47
they would do one or another of those
6:49
behaviors might have, you know,
6:51
different influences behind them.
6:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm curious too like as
6:58
as I was um preparing for this I was
7:00
just thinking about you know I'd love to
7:02
hear some of the scenarios that that you
7:05
find are most common um that where
7:08
you're brought in and kind of what those
7:11
um what some of those issues are that
7:13
where you're saying okay I need to help
7:15
this organization
7:17
they know what's important to them the
7:19
behavior that the outcome that they want
7:21
how do we connect the dots to saying
7:23
that they also need to care about what
7:26
the other people want and that's how you
7:28
start building the bridge because I find
7:29
that that bridge building fascinating.
7:32
>> Right. Right. And that's I mean that's
7:34
really exactly Isaac you just summed up
7:37
all of our work. A a lot of times when
7:39
agencies come to us they're not saying
7:42
we have a problem. They're they're
7:43
coming to me and asking what is the
7:45
message? And so right there at that
7:48
point is where I stop and say, "Okay,
7:50
well before we get into that, because
7:51
there is no one right message that's
7:53
going to reach all people across all
7:55
things."
7:56
>> Um if that if that were the case, I'd
7:58
write a book about it and I'd be on a
8:00
cruise ship somewhere. So um but so
8:04
often where I'll start is okay, what is
8:05
the outcome you're trying to change? Are
8:07
they trying to increase signups or are
8:09
they trying to reduce water or are they
8:12
trying to um get more people to accept
8:15
maybe recycle water? So, where is it
8:16
that they're going is where I'll start
8:19
and then back out from that. Who is most
8:23
connected to that problem? Single
8:25
family, multifamily, older residents.
8:27
Usually you is it or it might just be
8:29
residential, commercial? Usually you can
8:32
identify a chunk of people that share
8:35
some common characteristics that are
8:36
connected to the problem. And then we
8:38
ask, okay, what are they doing or not
8:40
doing
8:41
>> that's connected to that problem? That
8:43
is a critical question because a lot of
8:45
times agencies go right to a behavior or
8:48
an audience and then they don't see an
8:50
outcome at the end and it's because the
8:52
dots weren't connected. This audience
8:54
they're trying to reach isn't impacting
8:56
the outcome in a meaningful way. So
8:59
every single project we work on uh
9:01
begins like that and it's gone from you
9:04
know water and energy conservation to
9:05
wildlife habitat and wildlife
9:08
interactions. It's it's the same
9:09
framework. Uh but in terms of water, I
9:12
think one that uh that sticks with me,
9:14
it was actually for a a watershed
9:16
protection program. So their primary
9:18
concern was water going in the storm
9:19
drain. Yet it was still water use. And
9:22
the issue was water running off of
9:24
people's lawns.
9:26
>> And so from a storm water standpoint,
9:27
that's washing pollutants down, but from
9:29
a water resource standpoint, it's
9:31
wasting water. People are are using more
9:33
than they need. It's running off. And so
9:36
we the agency obviously was we just need
9:40
to tell people to fix their sprinklers.
9:42
We need to tell them how much water
9:43
they're losing. And if they just knew
9:45
how much water they were wasting by
9:47
their sprinklers being broken, they
9:49
would certainly act. And well, we know
9:52
that's not true. So we back wait up a
9:55
little bit. We first went out and made
9:57
sure that that was actually the problem.
9:59
We went out and did observations in the
10:01
middle of the night or very early in the
10:02
morning when people were watering and we
10:04
found out, yeah, people have broken
10:06
sprinklers or just tons of water going
10:08
to the street. But we've actually found
10:10
out that most people were watering the
10:11
appropriate length of time. So, right
10:13
from the get-go by watching, we realized
10:16
that if we would have just focused on
10:18
shorten your water time, we would have
10:20
had the wrong behavior and nothing would
10:22
have changed. They were already doing
10:23
that. It was the broken sprinklers that
10:25
were the issue. So, so next we had to
10:27
figure out, okay, well, why aren't why
10:29
why are they not fixing their
10:31
sprinklers? Why is this an issue? And we
10:34
surveyed them and the vast majority of
10:36
people didn't even know that this was
10:38
going on because they were watering as
10:40
they were instructed early in the
10:42
morning or late at night. They just
10:43
didn't see it.
10:44
>> Yeah.
10:45
>> And so that became a challenge. We're
10:48
obviously not going to message people at
10:49
2 in the morning. But we also learned in
10:52
that study that people were also
10:53
regularly mowing their lawns and that
10:56
they cared about their lawn maintenance.
10:57
So what we did in that scenario was
11:00
match the communication
11:02
>> to their lawn mowing and we created this
11:04
campaign called check after you mow. And
11:07
by doing that, we took this behavior
11:09
they were already in the habit of and
11:11
then reminded them by giving them sort
11:13
of a a little lawn mower hang tag that
11:15
reminded them to run their sprinkler
11:17
system and then flag their leaks to fix
11:20
Baron and we've done that program
11:22
significantly reduced water running into
11:25
the storm drain and similar variations
11:27
of that program we've rolled out across
11:28
a few different counties now with
11:30
similar results but I think it really
11:32
underscores the importance of having the
11:34
right behavior
11:35
>> and then also creating messages that
11:38
address those underlying factors.
11:40
>> Yeah. going beyond just the surface
11:42
piece because I think like we're we're
11:45
so much this is I think anyone wants to
11:49
do a lot of set it and forget it like I
11:51
have a lot of my morning routines I'm
11:54
getting my kids ready for school like
11:56
there's so many things so you develop a
11:59
lifestyle you're like okay this I just
12:00
want to set and forget this I want to
12:02
set and forget um and yeah like as much
12:07
as I can automate I will so that I can
12:11
focus on the relationships that that I'm
12:15
that are most important to me. Um and it
12:17
almost becomes a function of um yeah
12:21
like that then that challenge of like
12:23
how do you interrupt folks patterns to
12:26
say hey now is a good chance to to think
12:30
about something.
12:31
>> Yeah. And I think that's the other area
12:32
where knowledge and awareness comes up
12:34
short is it doesn't take into account
12:36
things like people's habits, people's
12:39
family dynamics. And we often come in
12:41
with just this assumption, well, they
12:42
just don't care enough. Why won't they
12:44
do it? And
12:45
>> uh people can after a while disconnect
12:48
from that because they they're like,
12:49
"Oh, yeah, I care, but I have these
12:51
daily challenges or your website is hard
12:54
to use or whatever it is." Sometimes
12:56
it's not a message at all. It's just
12:58
making the program easier to use for
13:00
people.
13:01
>> Your example also behavior you guys
13:03
surveyed. Obviously, there were
13:04
questions to figure out what they do
13:06
care about and where their interests are
13:07
and that's where the lawn mowing came
13:09
in. And I think for a lot of people in
13:11
the water sector and utilities, you
13:13
know, we might have not even thought to
13:14
put that in our survey. Why would we be
13:16
asking you about your lawn? And so,
13:17
we're missing out on that piece. Um, I
13:20
know very similar to that, uh, without
13:22
all the behavioral science background
13:24
and training. Um I when I worked at a
13:27
utility we were trying we were wondering
13:29
why this group of people were lining up
13:31
on you know January 1st February 1st
13:34
first of the month staying in this
13:35
really long line to pay their bill
13:37
because our lobby is closed because of
13:39
co and obviously the assumption was well
13:41
you know they don't have bank accounts
13:43
these really like really poor people I
13:45
stood out in the heat surveyed all of
13:47
those people and guess what no it was
13:49
just because either it was because of
13:52
convenience in their mind they thought
13:54
that that was the most convenient way.
13:55
Well, I'm already going to work. I'll
13:57
just drop it off. Well, I've always done
13:58
it this way. And so, we changed the
14:00
messaging of our campaign of, hey, did
14:02
you know there are more convenient ways
14:04
to pay? Are there better ways to pay?
14:06
But it gets into my question, Jennifer,
14:08
on, you know, if a utility were
14:10
listening to this and you've convinced
14:12
them with that story like, okay, wow,
14:13
I've been doing this wrong. Where do
14:15
they start? You know, a lot of utilities
14:17
are low capacity, low budget. How do
14:20
they start being better at this?
14:24
Yeah, I think the idea about, you know,
14:27
the low budget, low capacity is
14:29
interesting because I think there's an
14:31
assumption that you need to have a big
14:32
budget to be effective at changing
14:34
behavior. And I would argue that's not
14:37
true. Some of the most effective
14:38
programs we've run have been really low
14:40
budget, their small community
14:42
organizations.
14:43
But what they do well is they pause.
14:46
They get out of their conference rooms,
14:47
their boardrooms, or wherever they're
14:49
planning their programs. And usually
14:51
when they're in those rooms, they're
14:53
planning them around what would work for
14:54
us, what did my neighbors do, what what
14:57
what happens in my household. And so we
14:58
create these programs in these little,
15:00
you know, echo chambers of all of us who
15:03
care about water and understand water.
15:05
We're really different than the people
15:08
we're trying to reach. We're also
15:10
getting messages about energy and fire
15:13
and seat belts and who knows everything
15:16
their kids are bringing home. There's so
15:18
many other things that that people have.
15:20
So, I would say that the the number one
15:23
thing that agencies could do is not
15:25
start throwing behavioral science tools
15:27
in the mix because that can go really
15:29
wrong, but to just pause and get out and
15:32
talk to people. The things you find out
15:35
when you just talk to people. And you
15:37
don't have to do a citywide survey and
15:39
spend, you know, tens of thousands of
15:40
dollars. If you have a big budget, you
15:42
should do that.
15:43
>> You should do, you know, random surveys.
15:45
But if you don't, just getting out and
15:48
doing an intercept survey. Go to a
15:50
couple of different locations and ask
15:52
just a couple of questions. Are you
15:54
doing this? Whatever the behavior is,
15:57
what would make it what makes it
15:59
difficult or challenging for you to do
16:01
this behavior? And then thirdly, what
16:03
would you see as beneficial or
16:05
rewarding? Because sometimes the reason
16:08
for the utility to get people on board,
16:10
maybe it's saving money or avoiding
16:13
having to build new infrastructure.
16:16
Sometimes their reason is really
16:17
different than the audience's reason. As
16:20
as you pointed out, Chelsea, in your
16:21
example, I just did it because I've
16:24
always done it this way. You know,
16:25
perception is reality. If people think
16:27
something's a challenge,
16:29
>> it's a challenge. And understanding
16:31
people's perceptions is really, really
16:32
critical. Sometimes it's just a really
16:34
small um fine-tuning of a message or the
16:38
way that you reach people or sometimes
16:40
like I said a change to your a simple
16:42
change to your program. No marketing at
16:44
all. So that would you know that's I
16:47
think the first thing that we always
16:48
tell agencies talk to your audience.
16:51
>> Yeah.
16:51
>> Slow it. Get out there. I love that.
16:54
Yeah.
16:55
>> Yeah. And it's challenging to do because
16:57
I I think especially public agencies or
16:59
or private that they're used to hearing
17:02
from people who are mad at them or
17:04
really really love them. So there's the
17:06
people who call up the hotline and they
17:08
are iate about something some fee
17:10
increase or they didn't get their bill
17:12
whatever it is
17:13
>> and then you go to the events and the
17:15
people come to your booth and they're
17:16
like oh we love all your programs but
17:17
they don't hear from the middle and it's
17:19
usually that middle
17:21
>> that you're trying to move. You've got
17:23
the people who love you already on
17:24
board, the people who hate you.
17:25
>> Yeah.
17:26
>> Probably not going to come on board
17:27
right away.
17:29
>> But if you can move that junk in the
17:30
middle, it can bring along those kind of
17:33
other naysayers or or lagards as they
17:36
say into into the mix.
17:40
>> Yeah. Of a quick question actually that
17:42
comes up a lot um when I'm working with
17:44
different utilities and I'm just curious
17:46
your advice on it and what you would
17:48
caution them. You know, sometimes I see
17:50
utilities, one bad media po or social
17:53
media post, someone's really angry,
17:55
maybe it gets attention, one bad call
17:58
from a customer and they change their
18:00
entire strategy, right, based on this
18:02
one very loud feedback. What would you
18:05
say to them about that?
18:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um
18:11
that happened actually with an agency
18:13
that I worked with that they years ago
18:15
now, but they were trying to uh
18:18
implement a new street sweeping program
18:21
that was going to be increased frequency
18:23
and a few people got word of that and
18:24
they got really really upset and they
18:26
called the city and the city nearly
18:27
pulled the plug on this pilot program
18:29
and it was a great study. they were
18:31
going to test different frequencies and
18:32
different machineries and so we're they
18:35
were ready to pull the plug and we
18:37
suggested let's just check on this and
18:40
we did ended up doing a random survey.
18:42
So we drew addresses randomly from the
18:44
neighborhood, mailed them a survey and
18:46
we found out that most people were
18:48
actually extremely supportive of this
18:51
new program which would prevent you know
18:53
pollutants from getting out into the
18:55
ocean and then we were able to take that
18:56
data up to the decision makers. So
18:59
again, I would say, you know, fact check
19:01
it. I think acknowledge those people.
19:03
Yeah, just ignore them and say you're
19:05
wrong. A lot of times, uh, when people
19:07
pop up like that, it's largely driven by
19:11
uncertainty about what's happening. And
19:14
so there's, you know, ways to kind of
19:16
manage that. But in terms of pulling the
19:18
plug, I would just go back again. If you
19:21
go back and you randomly survey some
19:23
people in your your um your area or
19:28
whatever whoever your audience is and
19:30
you find out that everyone's upset, well
19:31
then you need to address that from a you
19:33
know call your PR people or or kind of
19:35
think about what is driving what it is
19:37
that they're upset about because
19:38
sometimes they're there real reasons
19:40
that people are upset. But if it's not,
19:43
then I would deal with that kind of
19:44
one-on-one and and move kind of use that
19:47
data that you have behind you and
19:49
confidently move forward.
19:52
>> Yeah.
19:53
>> So good. Thank you for that. It comes up
19:55
a ton. I talk to people about that all
19:57
the time.
19:58
>> I think something that utilities and
20:00
government agencies also don't see is
20:03
that research isn't it can be kind of an
20:06
investment. It's you can draw on it over
20:08
and over again. So you're solving one
20:10
problem, but now say you find out that
20:13
90% of the community is supportive of
20:16
this new infrastructure or whatever the
20:19
whatever the issue is. You can use that
20:21
information and we do that all of the
20:23
time when especially when agencies are
20:25
introducing new programs. We find out
20:27
that 90% of people are supportive and
20:30
want this. People make decisions. They
20:33
decide how to behave or what to believe
20:35
based on what other people are doing and
20:37
what other people believe. And they're
20:38
not going to tell you that. If you ask
20:40
people if they're influenced by their
20:41
neighbors, they're going to say, "No
20:42
way." But in behavioral science, there
20:44
are hundreds of studies now showing that
20:47
people are are influenced and going back
20:50
gosh probably close to 100 years now, um
20:53
that people are influenced by the others
20:54
around them. So providing people with
20:56
information about what other people are
20:58
doing. 90% of our customers or 70% of
21:02
our customers have signed up for
21:03
paperless billing or they approve of of
21:07
this new leak detection system
21:10
>> that can really drive people without
21:12
having to change their attitudes which
21:14
is what's super interesting about that
21:17
particular uh perspective.
21:20
That's I I love how like there's this
21:24
aspect of the work that we do and around
21:28
water that forces us to recognize that
21:32
it is a it's not just a resource, it's
21:34
also a community resource. And so that's
21:37
why it gets political. That's why it
21:39
gets messy and that's why it gets like
21:42
in that influencer thing is like where
21:45
do we how do we decide how we want our
21:48
resource to be used for the good of my
21:52
in me as an individual but also me
21:55
within the context of community. Um, and
21:58
I think it was uh Greg Wukash on the um
22:01
opening episode that was talking about,
22:03
you know, the importance of content, but
22:05
also content and context. And content
22:08
and context have to be discerned
22:11
together. Otherwise, just the content um
22:15
can make you make decisions based uh
22:18
separate from the context that are
22:20
actually
22:21
>> um opposite of what you want to
22:23
accomplish. And that's why I love what
22:25
Jennifer brings to this conversation and
22:27
for everyone getting to listen to this
22:29
podcast is, you know, something Rogue
22:31
Water stresses over and over is that
22:34
just because you talk does not mean you
22:36
can communicate well. And we all think
22:38
like we don't need to hire specialists
22:41
who are strategic about behavioral
22:43
science and communications and marketing
22:45
and all the different aspects of that.
22:47
One, they think all that is one thing,
22:48
so that's a problem. Um, but I just love
22:50
bringing Jennifer on to show the
22:52
specific expertise of this, which is
22:54
also exactly why we're bringing her to
22:56
Catalyst 2026. So, if you are listening
22:59
to this before September of 2026, um,
23:03
there's still time to register and you
23:05
can come learn from Jennifer in person.
23:08
Um, and then Jennifer, I don't know what
23:09
you want to share. Not the whole thing,
23:11
but maybe bits and pieces of kind of
23:13
what you'll have them do because you're
23:15
not just going to be talking at them. um
23:17
you'll kind of be running like a mini
23:20
experience experiment or letting them
23:22
kind of um practice this at Catalyst.
23:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm really excited about
23:27
this format. It's a little different
23:29
than you know the traditional conference
23:31
which is super exciting. So what we're
23:34
envisioning is kind of putting the
23:37
audience into or the guests I guess into
23:42
the role of a program designer and we're
23:45
going to make them behavioral scientists
23:46
for a half an hour or so. And I I'll
23:50
start by giving them some foundation and
23:53
kind of testing some of our assumptions.
23:55
What are our assumptions about how why
23:57
people do or do not engage in certain
23:59
behaviors? then send them out to learn
24:02
from from others from the community
24:04
about their percept perceptions and come
24:06
back and say how close were we? We might
24:08
be right about some things, we might be
24:10
completely off and then we'll conclude
24:12
with discussing how some tools from
24:14
behavioral science might be applied to
24:17
address those. As I had mentioned
24:20
earlier, it's, you know, we have a whole
24:22
box of of tools available to us, but
24:24
it's really about matching the tool to
24:27
the challenge. Do people need to be
24:28
reminded? That's one tool. Do they have
24:31
perceptions about what other people are
24:33
doing? That's another tool. Are they
24:35
super motivated but just haven't
24:37
followed through? That's another tool.
24:39
So, we'll conclude with a discussion of
24:41
how different tools might be applied to
24:43
those particular contexts. And it's hard
24:46
to know. You know, in this work, it's
24:47
you think you know what you're going to
24:49
see, but you don't. Sometimes you find
24:51
out exactly what you thought. Great.
24:54
Sometimes you just something completely
24:56
you never thought of is what you learn.
24:59
So, I'm really excited to see what comes
25:01
out of it and we'll all be learning
25:03
together.
25:04
>> Yeah. been so excited about this piece.
25:06
Isaac will be there, so he'll be one of
25:08
your uh guests that you'll you'll train
25:10
up. Um just so excited because, you
25:12
know, we'll be out in the community, not
25:14
in a stuffy conference room. Uh not only
25:16
getting to learn from Jennifer, but then
25:19
taking that step to actually practice
25:20
it. I think one thing, um you know, when
25:23
it comes to professional development, so
25:24
many times we're like getting that in
25:26
rooms and then when we go home, we don't
25:29
practice those muscles. an act catalyst
25:31
like we're forcing you to do it right
25:32
now to show you it's not that scary. Um
25:35
here are some things you might have like
25:36
assumed wrong with the hopes of that
25:39
that they'll go back and you know then
25:40
they'll have Jennifer as a resource. I
25:42
know Isaac you're going to ask her more
25:44
about kind of how to find more about
25:46
action research and and her work but um
25:48
yeah hoping to connect everyone at
25:50
Catalyst with her with other experts.
25:52
>> Yeah. Yeah, I am very excited. Um, it is
25:55
one of my favorite ways to experience um
25:57
and learn new things is to actually um
26:00
not have the information tossed at me,
26:03
but to um have me actually um actually
26:07
practice. And so um yeah, very excited.
26:11
It just feels like it's it's
26:12
understanding the science of curiosity
26:15
um and understanding like how do we
26:17
become curious about the pro the things
26:20
that we feel as problems as
26:21
professionals but aligning that with how
26:23
do we communicate that and get curious
26:26
and understand our um uh the people that
26:29
we serve.
26:30
>> Yeah.
26:30
>> Um yeah. So, Jennifer, I would love for
26:35
you to share how folks can learn more
26:37
about the work that you do, um, and
26:39
where they can find you, um,
26:42
knowing that they can all find you at
26:45
Catalyst in September.
26:48
Um, so two ways to find me, uh, my
26:51
agency, Action Research, that is action
26:54
research-inc.com,
26:56
but probably easier, it would just be to
26:59
type in sparkbehavior.com,
27:01
and you'll find my my personal website
27:04
talks a little bit about some of the
27:06
trainings that I offer. There's a link
27:07
to action research there, uh, where you
27:09
can see some of the work we've done in
27:11
the past. I will would also encourage
27:13
anyone who wants to learn a little bit
27:15
more about this before coming to
27:16
catalyst. I co-authored in 2025 because
27:20
that was last year the fourth edition of
27:22
fostering sustainable behavior. It
27:24
provides an introduction to community
27:26
based social marketing with examples
27:28
across industries. And this book is
27:30
really as it is fourth edition. It's
27:32
been out for about 30 years and has
27:33
become kind of requisite reading for
27:35
people in this space. It's very much a
27:37
practitioner friendly book. So, uh
27:39
that's out there as well.
27:42
Phenomenal. Awesome. Chelsea, one thing
27:45
that you do and you and Greg do so well
27:48
is just line up an all-star cast for um
27:52
for attendees to really get um probably
27:55
the highest ROI for per minute per
27:58
minute of what you're going to
27:59
experience and what you get to
28:00
internalize and what you get to take
28:02
back for to your community. Um so for
28:05
those of you listening, definitely check
28:08
out Catalyst. make sure um you're
28:12
connected to it, not just for the
28:13
conference, but for the community and
28:14
the resources. There's so much that
28:17
comes out of um out of that. And so um
28:20
thanks again, Jennifer, for um giving us
28:23
a preview of how you're going to guide
28:26
us through an experience. And we can't
28:28
wait to see all of you in San Diego.