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Missing in the Bahamas: Former FBI Agent Questions Husband’s Story · Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags

0:00
Speaker 1: It's a story that's grabbing international headlines. A man says
0:03
Speaker 1: his wife fell off the dinghy, fell off a boat,
0:05
Speaker 1: and he couldn't find her. But then he said she
0:07
Speaker 1: was swimming towards shore. That he talked about a broken oar,
0:10
Speaker 1: but that he promised after he was let out of
0:13
Speaker 1: jail he was going to stay in the Bahamas till
0:15
Speaker 1: he found his wife. Well, since I did this interview
0:17
Speaker 1: just yesterday, he left the Bahamas. Jennifer Coffin Daffer is
0:21
Speaker 1: a former FBI special agent. She's not buying it, are you?
0:25
Speaker 1: What would you initially take a look at because already
0:27
Speaker 1: we're hearing that there was a history of them not
0:29
Speaker 1: getting along very well together. There is some sort of
0:32
Speaker 1: upheaval domestically years earlier. Would you take a look at
0:35
Speaker 1: that initially? Would the initial search be we believed the guy,
0:39
Speaker 1: Let me see if we can find her. What do
0:41
Speaker 1: you do right from the.
0:42
Speaker 2: Start, Well, the first thing I do is, of course,
0:45
Speaker 2: have an interview of him. See what he says. Does
0:48
Speaker 2: it line up and does it comport with the facts
0:51
Speaker 2: and what we really know in this case, his facts
0:53
Speaker 2: that he gave don't comport with anything that makes any sense.
0:57
Speaker 2: The fact they were on this small dinghy eight foot
1:00
Speaker 2: easy to get in and out of, very uneasy to
1:03
Speaker 2: fall from. Really there rubber, they stick tight. I'm a
1:06
Speaker 2: boater nautical person lived in the Virgin Islands, and I
1:10
Speaker 2: can tell you the store absolutely makes no.
1:12
Speaker 1: Sense, all right, So he gives the story. Why do
1:14
Speaker 1: you think they let him go? They just didn't have
1:16
Speaker 1: anything to hold him on well.
1:18
Speaker 2: Making a case beyond a reasonable doubt. They have the
1:21
Speaker 2: exact same requirements as we do here. They weren't able
1:26
Speaker 2: to do that, but they still might be able to.
1:29
Speaker 2: They don't have the digital trail yet, and I think
1:31
Speaker 2: that's going to be the key to this case. I
1:33
Speaker 2: want to know what Google searches he might have done.
1:36
Speaker 2: I want to know if this was planned in any
1:38
Speaker 2: way and they just didn't have time within the five
1:40
Speaker 2: days they had to figure that out.
1:42
Speaker 1: And the whole thing that she just somehow fell overboard
1:45
Speaker 1: and he lost sight of her, it just sounds all
1:47
Speaker 1: very immediate and very sudden, and not that I jumped
1:50
Speaker 1: in after her. I tied myself to the boat in
1:52
Speaker 1: the hopes of grabbing her and then bringing her back in.
1:54
Speaker 1: And there's there's some case of the missing key, so
1:57
Speaker 1: he couldn't start the boat back up because she had
1:59
Speaker 1: the key in her pocket. I mean, all of that
2:01
Speaker 1: just sounds very suspicious.
2:03
Speaker 2: Very suspicious. First of all, he usually always had the
2:07
Speaker 2: key because he liked the captain. And then secondarily, he
2:10
Speaker 2: said she went in with her dry bag. The dry
2:13
Speaker 2: bag had the secondary key. So wow, that was just
2:17
Speaker 2: really unlucky. I guess that she was holding her dry
2:20
Speaker 2: bag when this puff of air as he calls it,
2:24
Speaker 2: knocked her in. She's supposedly an excellent swimmer. He is
2:29
Speaker 2: a marine, excellent swimmer. He purportedly threw her a floatation device.
2:34
Speaker 2: Did he just miss and she couldn't get it? Nothing
2:37
Speaker 2: makes sense.
2:39
Speaker 1: It is General Coffin. Never go and check out her podcast.
2:42
Speaker 1: It's called break the Case, right.
2:45
Speaker 2: Break the Case is my YouTube. It's actually true with
2:48
Speaker 2: Jen Coffin daffer on podcasts.
2:50
Speaker 1: Okay, go and check her out everywhere. Because the knowledge
2:52
Speaker 1: and the information that you give us absolutely has been
2:55
Speaker 1: second to none. And again we've had a few videos
2:57
Speaker 1: that we've done together that have blown up over six
2:59
Speaker 1: figures of on YouTube and still going strong. When it
3:02
Speaker 1: comes to a case like this, I don't want to
3:05
Speaker 1: assume well, let's talk hypothetically. I don want to assume
3:07
Speaker 1: what this Brian guy may or may not have done.
3:09
Speaker 1: But in cases that you've investigated where a family member
3:12
Speaker 1: does something to get rid of another family member, and
3:14
Speaker 1: again I'm not saying that happen here, what is the
3:16
Speaker 1: initial look? Do you go to other family members? Because
3:19
Speaker 1: in Michigan they're all talking he was a bad guy,
3:22
Speaker 1: he wanted to get rid of her. They had all
3:24
Speaker 1: sorts of problems. She was afraid of him, whatever they're
3:26
Speaker 1: saying that already. But in any case that you would
3:29
Speaker 1: investigate when it's a family member who is reporting another
3:32
Speaker 1: family member has died, is lost, I don't know where
3:35
Speaker 1: she went. Do you always say family first? Is there
3:39
Speaker 1: like a percentage you can give where you say it's
3:42
Speaker 1: this percent the family did it well, he.
3:46
Speaker 2: Had the opportunity, he was the last one to see her.
3:49
Speaker 2: There's only his accounting of what happened, And so of
3:53
Speaker 2: course he's going to be the primary suspect, even if
3:56
Speaker 2: he weren't family, if he were just a friend. But
3:58
Speaker 2: you add on top of it points you're making a
4:02
Speaker 2: history of domestic violence with her. She had left him
4:05
Speaker 2: multiple times, they were having all sorts of trouble and
4:08
Speaker 2: in fact she was supposed to be leaving him again,
4:11
Speaker 2: which is I believe the proximal event to this. So
4:14
Speaker 2: you add that all together and it doesn't paint a
4:16
Speaker 2: very good picture in terms of motive for him.
4:20
Speaker 1: We talked a lot about the Guthrie case, and that's
4:22
Speaker 1: a specific case that is on the ground and you
4:24
Speaker 1: see blood on the ground, and you see activity inside
4:27
Speaker 1: the house and you try to find tire tracks. It's
4:29
Speaker 1: got to be a very different thing when somebody claims
4:31
Speaker 1: it's a water rescue that had to go on, or
4:34
Speaker 1: now they're calling it a recovery, and that somebody was
4:36
Speaker 1: lost at sea or lost in a lake or lost
4:39
Speaker 1: in water. That takes on a whole different set of circumstances,
4:41
Speaker 1: doesn't it.
4:43
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean that chances that there's video is very low.
4:48
Speaker 2: But again, to me, this digital trail always becomes important.
4:52
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you how a lot of these cases
4:54
Speaker 2: are cracked, and that is after we call it post
4:58
Speaker 2: event behavior. And what is he going to do now?
5:01
Speaker 2: Is he going to leave he's a drinker? Is he
5:04
Speaker 2: going to get drunk? And is he going to inadvertently
5:08
Speaker 2: either say something to somebody or just out and out
5:12
Speaker 2: say he did it. This happens so often, Joe Pegs.
5:15
Speaker 1: So in investigating it, that's very interesting because I never
5:18
Speaker 1: thought about it in these terms. That's why I love
5:20
Speaker 1: having you on. I would think, let's find out what
5:23
Speaker 1: led up to it, Let's find out what happened that day,
5:25
Speaker 1: let's find out exactly the circumstances surrounding it. But you're
5:28
Speaker 1: saying this is important, and maybe even more important in
5:30
Speaker 1: a case like this is what did he do afterwards?
5:33
Speaker 1: So what did this guy do afterwards? Do we know?
5:35
Speaker 2: Well, he was in jail for five days, right, you
5:39
Speaker 2: know there was only two days allowed. They got an
5:41
Speaker 2: extension with a judge. Now they've led him out, so
5:44
Speaker 2: he went back to his bigger boats. And that makes
5:47
Speaker 2: a lot of sense. By the way, a lot of
5:48
Speaker 2: people have the dingies so they can sort of sport
5:50
Speaker 2: around easier because the big boat is hard to take.
5:53
Speaker 2: That makes some sense. What didn't make sense is that
5:56
Speaker 2: they went out at seven o'clock at night, so in
5:58
Speaker 2: the evening hours when it's dark, which is dumb. Secondarily,
6:02
Speaker 2: there was reports of at least twenty nine winds, which
6:06
Speaker 2: is about twenty three mile per hour winds not super heavy,
6:09
Speaker 2: somewhat heavy, and so it doesn't make a lot of
6:12
Speaker 2: sense that you would make the decision let's go out
6:14
Speaker 2: at night when you can't see in eight foot dinghi
6:17
Speaker 2: when they're supposed to be wind Not a lot of sense.
6:20
Speaker 1: It doesn't. Plus you said that he's a drinker. Do
6:23
Speaker 1: we know were they drinking that night?
6:26
Speaker 2: They not only drank that night, they drank all day. Okay,
6:30
Speaker 2: so they were not making good decisions and so obviously
6:34
Speaker 2: this wasn't a good decision. But my question is was
6:37
Speaker 2: this calculated? Was it calculated to go out drinking all day?
6:40
Speaker 2: Was it calculated to go to elbow k and get
6:42
Speaker 2: into your DINGI at this hour in these conditions. That's
6:46
Speaker 2: why they need to follow the digital trail, and I'm
6:49
Speaker 2: sure they're trying to. I just don't think they've had
6:51
Speaker 2: time to collect the evidence.
6:53
Speaker 1: It is general Koffin Daffer Go and check out everything
6:55
Speaker 1: she does. She's over on exits Coffin daf for FBI
7:00
Speaker 1: n d af f E r FBI. Go follow her.
7:03
Speaker 1: She's a great follow up. Check out everything that she
7:05
Speaker 1: does without a doubt at second to none. So what
7:07
Speaker 1: do you do now? Now? It's been several days. It's
7:09
Speaker 1: been a long time. He was in for five days.
7:11
Speaker 1: He's now out. If you're somebody still looking for the body,
7:16
Speaker 1: one would assume, or if looking for her, if she's alive,
7:19
Speaker 1: which is not likely, what do you do now if
7:21
Speaker 1: you don't ever find the body. That's going to cause
7:23
Speaker 1: a major problem as to how you solve a case,
7:26
Speaker 1: is it not?
7:28
Speaker 2: It's problematic, But there have been cases actually in the
7:31
Speaker 2: Bahamas I was looking up, that have actually been tried
7:34
Speaker 2: and convicted without a body. So they have done that
7:37
Speaker 2: in the past. Many jurisdictions have done that in the past.
7:40
Speaker 2: It just makes it more tricky because you can't tell
7:42
Speaker 2: exactly why the person died. There's a couple of clues
7:45
Speaker 2: though her Apple watch, the Apple watch was purportedly found,
7:50
Speaker 2: there could be information on that that I think could
7:52
Speaker 2: be very interesting. Also, was that boat searched, Was luminol done?
7:57
Speaker 2: Was anything done to see if something happened on the
8:00
Speaker 2: big boat prior to the dinghiy voyage. We don't really
8:04
Speaker 2: know except for his word that she was even alive
8:07
Speaker 2: on the dinghy. So I'm going to be trying to
8:09
Speaker 2: look into that and figure out what words he said,
8:12
Speaker 2: were actually true and what.
8:13
Speaker 1: Weren't very good point. So in other words, there could
8:16
Speaker 1: be a crime scene on the big boat, the Soul
8:17
Speaker 1: or whatever it's called.
8:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, there could solemate. It's possibility. You want to look
8:23
Speaker 2: into that. You want to check all of that out too.
8:26
Speaker 1: Is it weird at all? Does it jump out at you?
8:27
Speaker 1: And by the way I said earlier, I think it's
8:29
Speaker 1: in fifty seven, she's fifty five, he's fifty eight, both
8:31
Speaker 1: of them from Michigan, Lynette and Bryant Hooker. Is it
8:34
Speaker 1: weird at all that he called? I guess her daughter
8:36
Speaker 1: called her family in Michigan and said, we found the
8:39
Speaker 1: floatation device I tried to throw to her. That just
8:42
Speaker 1: sounds weird to me.
8:43
Speaker 2: You know why it is weird. It's like Alec Murdach. Yes,
8:48
Speaker 2: he cooked his own bacon when he got on that stand.
8:52
Speaker 2: And when people try to discuss something, the parameters around
8:57
Speaker 2: what happened, that is a red flagg to law enforcement.
9:00
Speaker 2: And most people are who are reporting something like this,
9:02
Speaker 2: whether it's to law enforcement or to a loved one.
9:05
Speaker 2: They're upset, they're emotional, they're sick about this loss. They're
9:09
Speaker 2: not talking about all these little details that makes it
9:12
Speaker 2: look good for them. This reminded me so much. Ballet Murdo.
9:16
Speaker 1: Well, another thing that goes into that same category. He
9:18
Speaker 1: told officials that he saw his wife swimming towards shore.
9:22
Speaker 1: I saw her swimming towards the shore. She's probably fine. Well,
9:24
Speaker 1: of course she didn't make it to shore because they
9:26
Speaker 1: didn't find her. Is that another indication to you as
9:28
Speaker 1: an investigator that he's just trying to paint the sunniest
9:32
Speaker 1: picture he can paint?
9:33
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. In fact, he specifically said on a voicemail
9:37
Speaker 2: to one of his friends that she swam for their
9:40
Speaker 2: boat a thousand yards away. That's his words, a thousand
9:44
Speaker 2: yards away. So how much sense does that make? You're
9:46
Speaker 2: going to swim toward the a thousand yards as a
9:49
Speaker 2: boat as opposed to just turning around and swimming toward
9:52
Speaker 2: the Dean doesn't make any sense.
9:54
Speaker 1: Are they still looking for her? Do you think? I
9:56
Speaker 1: know they're calling it a recovery effort now and not
9:57
Speaker 1: a rescue effort. Are they still looking for her as that?
10:00
Speaker 1: Is that search going to continue as long as they
10:01
Speaker 1: can until, like Nancy Guthrie has been months now, and
10:04
Speaker 1: that search certainly is cooled off. But on this one,
10:07
Speaker 1: I mean, this is still pretty hot. Are they still looking?
10:09
Speaker 2: Do you think, well, I saw the physical search efforts
10:14
Speaker 2: certainly have already waned. I mean to be honest, the
10:17
Speaker 2: chances of her being alive with the wildlife out there,
10:19
Speaker 2: I say wildlife, with the shark life out there, it's
10:22
Speaker 2: the shark capital of the world. If you didn't know
10:24
Speaker 2: that the body I did not, Yeah, it is. And
10:28
Speaker 2: if you're a diver, you want to go there. That
10:30
Speaker 2: is the best place to see sharks, swimmers, sharks, and
10:34
Speaker 2: they're everywhere. So there's no chance in my belief that
10:38
Speaker 2: she made it. She made it. I she drowned, and
10:41
Speaker 2: then I think wildlife has hurt her.
10:43
Speaker 1: Well, I think that you actually hit on something earlier
10:45
Speaker 1: that really piques my interest now that you tell me
10:47
Speaker 1: it's the shark capital of the world. If in fact
10:49
Speaker 1: he causes a wound on her, that's going to attract
10:51
Speaker 1: you know, more of these a shark more quickly than
10:54
Speaker 1: anything else. So there's a chance, and I would love
10:57
Speaker 1: to see them go and do luminol either on the
10:59
Speaker 1: dinghy or on the on the main boat, as well
11:01
Speaker 1: as soul mate. If he injures her or if he
11:04
Speaker 1: does something bad to her on one of those vessels,
11:06
Speaker 1: if you find that that might have that might mean
11:09
Speaker 1: you're never gonna find her at all. You're right, Sharks
11:11
Speaker 1: would be very attracted to the blood in the water.
11:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And add this on to it. He said
11:18
Speaker 2: he broke he told he tells her that he broke
11:21
Speaker 2: one of his oars. There's a broken ore, and that's
11:25
Speaker 2: why he also can't paddle.
11:27
Speaker 1: He didn't do that. He didn't do that in the water.
11:29
Speaker 1: You're not going to break an ore just doing this,
11:31
Speaker 1: not an ore from a dinghy, from a from a yacht.
11:34
Speaker 1: One would assume it's in good shape. So I mean
11:36
Speaker 1: the indication is that could have been a weapon.
11:39
Speaker 2: That's the indication.
11:41
Speaker 1: J Well, I with you. Listen. Yeah, you're unafraid to
11:44
Speaker 1: to to make these uh to make these investigative you
11:47
Speaker 1: know remarks. And I love that this stuff that you
11:49
Speaker 1: talked told me about in the Guthrie case, a lot
11:51
Speaker 1: of it was true, a lot of it was right.
11:53
Speaker 1: On a lot of it, we don't even know if
11:54
Speaker 1: it was right or wrong yet because we don't have
11:55
Speaker 1: her yet. Uh So on this one, you have to
11:58
Speaker 1: that's kind of way your brain works, isn't it, Jennifer.
12:00
Speaker 1: You have to consider everything in its entirety. Do you think,
12:03
Speaker 1: and I'm not asking you to criticize the officials in
12:06
Speaker 1: the Bahamas, but do you think that they're capable of
12:08
Speaker 1: having that sort of investigative ability to say, yeah, check
12:11
Speaker 1: the boat, check the little boat, check the big boat,
12:13
Speaker 1: check and see if there are footprints on the shore.
12:15
Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of dumb now because it's so late,
12:17
Speaker 1: but I mean you seem to have a way to
12:20
Speaker 1: grasp onto anything and everything possible in a case like this.
12:24
Speaker 2: I think the Bahamian officials would do a good job
12:28
Speaker 2: on this. I don't think it's their first rodeo. They're
12:30
Speaker 2: on the water, they're used to crimes that are like this.
12:34
Speaker 2: I think they'll end up doing a good job. I
12:36
Speaker 2: just don't think they had enough time. Five days is
12:38
Speaker 2: not enough time to do a successful murder investigation.
12:41
Speaker 1: Is he free to come back here now? Can they
12:43
Speaker 1: keep him there and tell them you can't leave the islands?
12:46
Speaker 2: I don't believe so. I think he's completely free to
12:49
Speaker 2: go wherever he wants to go. If he's smart, he
12:51
Speaker 2: won't come to the United States and he won't stay
12:54
Speaker 2: in the Bahamas, Phil Cruz and stay at other islands.
12:57
Speaker 2: But if he's smart, that's what he'll do. Give him
13:00
Speaker 2: any right, Yeah, Brian.
13:02
Speaker 1: If you're watching, don't listen to Jennifer Brian if you're watching, so, uh,
13:06
Speaker 1: let me let me ask you why why coming to
13:08
Speaker 1: the United States? Why would that be bad for him?
13:10
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to do that because there's international
13:13
Speaker 2: jurisdiction on something like this, the propensity for that, and
13:17
Speaker 2: certainly of the Bahamans would charge him, we would extradite
13:20
Speaker 2: him back over there. So you that's where I would
13:24
Speaker 2: stay away from. And clearly they bought a boat. They
13:28
Speaker 2: sold everything, they sold their house, they did everything to
13:31
Speaker 2: buy that boat. Even though he told a friend he
13:33
Speaker 2: was going to sell it now because there's too many memories.
13:36
Speaker 2: Let's see what he really does.
13:39
Speaker 1: He's already said I'm going to sell it. Say just
13:41
Speaker 1: since this happened.
13:42
Speaker 2: Oh yes, he said it to a friend on a
13:45
Speaker 2: on a phone call. You know, he wasn't really crying,
13:48
Speaker 2: he was very monotone, but he said, I'm going to
13:50
Speaker 2: have to sell the boat because there's too many memories
13:53
Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's got her touches on it
13:55
Speaker 2: words to that effect. So yeah, he said that.
13:58
Speaker 1: Call me crazy, but I think that I would probab
14:00
Speaker 1: say to my friend, man, I'm going to do everything
14:01
Speaker 1: I can to find my wife. I don't think the
14:03
Speaker 1: first thing I'm going to say is I'm going to
14:04
Speaker 1: sell a boat.
14:06
Speaker 2: No, it's exactly right. It goes into this whole spield.
14:09
Speaker 2: That's just one part of it. This call is really
14:12
Speaker 2: it's one of my favorite call. I posted it on
14:14
Speaker 2: coffin down for re FBI. Actually I posted it twice.
14:16
Speaker 2: It's so interesting.
14:17
Speaker 1: Go check it out right now. This is a very
14:19
Speaker 1: interesting case. In a case like this, it seems to me,
14:22
Speaker 1: you know, he says things like she bounced out of
14:24
Speaker 1: the boat. It just the verbiage he's using is very strange.
14:28
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been in minor car accidents before, and
14:29
Speaker 1: I don't think I really well just to we bounced
14:32
Speaker 1: out of the seat for a second, it just seems
14:33
Speaker 1: almost a little bit too nuanced. I mean, I would
14:37
Speaker 1: say we're on the boat, the winds went crazy, the
14:41
Speaker 1: waves were crashing against it, and she flopped out. I
14:43
Speaker 1: couldn't get her. I tried to get her. I threw
14:45
Speaker 1: the thing, but just the way he's speaking about it.
14:47
Speaker 1: Does this sound planned out to you? He's the way
14:50
Speaker 1: he's describing it. I don't know if the actual event
14:52
Speaker 1: was planned out or not. But what he's saying afterwards,
14:55
Speaker 1: I'm selling the boat. I threw the light, the thing
14:58
Speaker 1: I saw her swimming to shore. Just what he's saying
15:00
Speaker 1: doesn't add up in my mind.
15:02
Speaker 2: It doesn't add up. And you asked me at the beginning,
15:05
Speaker 2: what is the first thing you look at? And that's
15:07
Speaker 2: the first thing you look at, is what the person
15:10
Speaker 2: is saying. Does it make any sense? Then after that,
15:13
Speaker 2: now I've got my pre interview. I put him on
15:15
Speaker 2: the polygraph. I put him on the box. Did he
15:18
Speaker 2: take one? We don't know, but I certainly hope they tried.
15:23
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not admissible, But what do you learn
15:24
Speaker 1: from that? If you put somebody on the box, as
15:26
Speaker 1: you say, you put something in the polygraph and they
15:29
Speaker 1: fail it, what do you make What do you do
15:31
Speaker 1: with that? Does that help you to investigate further? I'm
15:33
Speaker 1: on the right direction. I'm going to keep on going
15:35
Speaker 1: that way because you can't use it as an admission
15:37
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16:44
Speaker 2: Well, in some jurisdictions you can really Actually in Mexico
16:48
Speaker 2: you can use it now, and in multiple states, over
16:52
Speaker 2: twenty states, you can use it as long as it's
16:54
Speaker 2: stipulated to you by both at defense and the prosecution.
16:57
Speaker 2: So it's actually becoming much much more beyond an investigative tool.
17:03
Speaker 2: I believe in it, I really do. From my experiences.
17:07
Speaker 2: I've seen it beat twice. I have seen that, but
17:11
Speaker 2: typically it's because drugs were involved. And if you have
17:14
Speaker 2: somebody that is just a liar, in other words, they
17:17
Speaker 2: lie day in and day out. They're pathological. They can't
17:20
Speaker 2: catch a pathological liar either.
17:22
Speaker 1: It's Jennifer Coffin daff a retarded FBI special agent. Go
17:25
Speaker 1: to Coffin DA for FBI over on X and check
17:28
Speaker 1: out Break the Case. It's over on YouTube. It's Break
17:31
Speaker 1: the Case all one word. We've been watching forty eight hours.
17:35
Speaker 1: The first forty eight hours. We've taken it back to
17:37
Speaker 1: like two thousand and four, just to see the investigative tactics.
17:40
Speaker 1: And having been in television news for a long time
17:42
Speaker 1: and now in broadcasting for a long time, I know
17:45
Speaker 1: that you guys don't tell us everything. You tell us
17:47
Speaker 1: and you release what it is you want us to
17:49
Speaker 1: know that might actually help the investigation in a case
17:52
Speaker 1: like this. How much further along do you think the
17:54
Speaker 1: investigators are that we actually know? Do you think they're
17:57
Speaker 1: closer because they held them for five days for a reason.
18:00
Speaker 1: They have something that we don't know about, don't they?
18:03
Speaker 2: No? I agree with you, they have something we don't
18:05
Speaker 2: know about. But we know a lot. And I'll tell
18:07
Speaker 2: you why. We know a lot, because all of these
18:09
Speaker 2: people are coming forward, right you know, the mom is
18:12
Speaker 2: coming forward, the daughter has come forward, the best friend
18:15
Speaker 2: has come forward. They actually vid or audio taped him.
18:19
Speaker 2: That tells me a lot. Why would you audio tape
18:22
Speaker 2: one of your best buddies? And of course he left
18:25
Speaker 2: some things on voicemails, So I find it very interesting
18:28
Speaker 2: because it shows me they were suspect.
18:31
Speaker 1: What do you think happens next? You think that he'll
18:33
Speaker 1: he'll get on that boat and go where you say
18:34
Speaker 1: he'll go. I think he's kind of a dumb guy,
18:36
Speaker 1: just the way that he's described it, But that's just
18:38
Speaker 1: my opinion. I think he'll probably try to come home.
18:40
Speaker 1: I think he's going to head back to Michigan. What
18:41
Speaker 1: do you think is going to happen? Now?
18:43
Speaker 2: He might do that. Of course, what he said, what
18:46
Speaker 2: he told NBC News is listen, I'm staying here. I'm
18:49
Speaker 2: not leaving until I find her. You know, that's his
18:52
Speaker 2: sole mission. He said that when the cameras cameras were on, right,
18:57
Speaker 2: he didn't say that to his friends.
18:59
Speaker 1: You know what to remind me of, remind me of
19:01
Speaker 1: oj Sam, I'm going to find the real killers?
19:04
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it does me. Two in this actually reminds
19:07
Speaker 2: me a little bit of the Gabby Patito in terms
19:10
Speaker 2: of that you have these parallel tracks, right, a van
19:13
Speaker 2: life versus a cruise life. This was something that came
19:16
Speaker 2: up late. You know, a few years ago they sold
19:19
Speaker 2: everything and decided they were just going to cruise around
19:21
Speaker 2: the world for the rest of their lives. And then
19:23
Speaker 2: she told in a text message that we have a
19:27
Speaker 2: friend that it didn't work out. We stayed married twenty
19:30
Speaker 2: one years and we cruised six weeks and it's over.
19:33
Speaker 2: I wouldn't trust myself going back out there with him. Now.
19:36
Speaker 2: That was in January of twenty twenty four. Obviously she
19:40
Speaker 2: went back. But it's very prophetic.
19:43
Speaker 1: Well, I mean what jumps out immediately, and you've get
19:45
Speaker 1: on this quite a few times in this interview, and
19:47
Speaker 1: I appreciate it is that the people that are her family,
19:51
Speaker 1: the people are that are even his friends, all they
19:54
Speaker 1: all kind of think he's involved here, if they're not
19:57
Speaker 1: even hiding it. They literally think, look, she was afraid
19:59
Speaker 1: of she didn't like him, that he can get along.
20:01
Speaker 1: You get like you said, the buddy is recording a
20:03
Speaker 1: phone call. That is so odd to record the phone call.
20:06
Speaker 1: So I mean everybody in this circle appears to have
20:09
Speaker 1: been in fear of them staying together.
20:12
Speaker 2: Well, and I will say with the buddy, that was
20:15
Speaker 2: a voicemail, but he still turned it over to the media,
20:18
Speaker 2: right right. It tells that he's you know, I think
20:22
Speaker 2: sees the problem with everything set on the phone call,
20:25
Speaker 2: everything that happened out there on that little DEMI I
20:28
Speaker 2: think everybody, probably most people believe he's Look, he's cloaked
20:33
Speaker 2: in the presumption of innocence. He's innocent. Certainly they weren't
20:36
Speaker 2: able to make the case. They couldn't even get beyond
20:38
Speaker 2: probable cause to hold him longer. But you can bet
20:41
Speaker 2: we're going to keep digging. I want to see his
20:43
Speaker 2: Google now.
20:45
Speaker 1: I want to see that, and I also want to
20:46
Speaker 1: see if they did Lumino on the boats. That was
20:48
Speaker 1: a great point, Jennifer Coffin Daffer. Before I let you go,
20:51
Speaker 1: we got to talk Guthrie. Let's talk about the latest
20:53
Speaker 1: that we know. I did an interview with Mark lamp
20:56
Speaker 1: Panal County sheriff retired, and also an interview with Richard
21:00
Speaker 1: mac retired from another part of Arizona, and they both
21:02
Speaker 1: say that this guy, Chris Nanos, the sheriff of Pima County, Arizona,
21:08
Speaker 1: where Nancy Guthrie disappeared, had a no confidence vote. Every
21:11
Speaker 1: single deputy that voted voted no confidence and I think
21:14
Speaker 1: sixty five abstained. But nobody showed any confidence in him.
21:18
Speaker 1: And this I think was before guth three. We know
21:20
Speaker 1: that he took seasoned homicide detectives and made them patrol officers.
21:24
Speaker 1: And the people that are investigating the Nancy Guthrie case
21:26
Speaker 1: have zero years, zero cases under their belt of homicide investigation.
21:31
Speaker 1: What do you make of where we are with this?
21:32
Speaker 1: Why don't we know something more?
21:35
Speaker 2: Well, when you look at that, obviously he's a sheriff.
21:38
Speaker 2: He's a guy who it's more important to him that
21:40
Speaker 2: he has people under his thumb right. He wants yes,
21:43
Speaker 2: he wants people he can control. He wants to make
21:46
Speaker 2: sure that it goes down the way it should go
21:49
Speaker 2: and doesn't make the department look bad. But this is
21:52
Speaker 2: the problem. Everybody's talking about it, so it's making the
21:54
Speaker 2: department and him look horrible. Yes, it's a huge problem,
21:58
Speaker 2: and now he has to answer these questions. I think
22:01
Speaker 2: he only has a couple of days left. And I'm
22:03
Speaker 2: sure his staff, other officers, himself, they're supposed to be
22:09
Speaker 2: involved running this investigation, and they're out doing these honeydews
22:12
Speaker 2: explaining all of his bad actions over the years. It's
22:16
Speaker 2: just terrible for the investigation. That's the biggest thing. That's
22:19
Speaker 2: what I look at.
22:20
Speaker 1: You've been in law enforcement a long time, Jennifer. What
22:22
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to me? And maybe this is
22:24
Speaker 1: some sort of an arrogance that I don't understand because
22:26
Speaker 1: I'm not in law enforcement, and I think most law
22:28
Speaker 1: enforcement officials are not like this, but some must be.
22:32
Speaker 1: This arrogance doesn't make sense because if he would have
22:34
Speaker 1: asked the FBI to come in early, worked hand in
22:36
Speaker 1: hand with them, Early, closed off the crime scene, early,
22:40
Speaker 1: did everything and anything possible to put the best homicide
22:43
Speaker 1: investigator or missing persons investigators or abduction investigators on the case.
22:48
Speaker 1: They might have solved it by now, and he would
22:49
Speaker 1: have looked great. He would have been the star of
22:52
Speaker 1: the show. Chris Nanols really runs a tight ship. But
22:55
Speaker 1: because he's doing twenty individual interviews a day and saying
22:58
Speaker 1: different things in different people that he's talked to, because
23:00
Speaker 1: he's got a no confidence vote from his deputies, and
23:02
Speaker 1: he's moving. He told the aerial support team that he
23:05
Speaker 1: didn't want them to help. He told the Native American
23:07
Speaker 1: team locally that knows the lane. We don't want your help,
23:10
Speaker 1: He told Mark Lamb, I don't want your help. So
23:13
Speaker 1: I mean, is it me or wouldn't it have been
23:15
Speaker 1: better for him to say, let's get everybody on this
23:17
Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, if we saw it,
23:18
Speaker 1: I'll look great.
23:21
Speaker 2: You're exactly right, you know. That's what they did in Idaho,
23:24
Speaker 2: Chief Fry Chief Fry on day one sixty FBI agents
23:28
Speaker 2: states everybody was involved in that case. From day one,
23:32
Speaker 2: he knew he would be drowning. I think first of all,
23:35
Speaker 2: Nanos underestimated what this case was. I think he truly
23:39
Speaker 2: thought this was just a woman. Solder walked away. So
23:42
Speaker 2: now he's lost a lot of time. By the time
23:45
Speaker 2: he realizes, which I don't know why the two doors
23:48
Speaker 2: being opened in the back and the blood and what
23:51
Speaker 2: otherever other disturbances inside didn't kind of give him that clue.
23:55
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, I think he under estimated the case, probably
23:58
Speaker 2: because he had people who were inexperienced in that house
24:02
Speaker 2: and that were the people that were feeding him the information.
24:05
Speaker 2: So then by the time it's time to get it
24:07
Speaker 2: under wraps, he still doesn't have the FBI involved until
24:11
Speaker 2: the ransom notes come in on the second February second,
24:14
Speaker 2: so the day after, and TMZ gets it on the third.
24:18
Speaker 2: So nevertheless, that's when he finally says, boy, I guess
24:20
Speaker 2: I better bring the Bureau in. But like you said,
24:23
Speaker 2: first forty eight hours, it's lost and you can never
24:26
Speaker 2: get a book.
24:27
Speaker 1: Jennifer Koffindaffer go and follow on exits. Coffin daf for FBI,
24:30
Speaker 1: a great, great, great investigator. You know why we know
24:34
Speaker 1: that there's blood on the doorstep, right because he was
24:36
Speaker 1: so dummy. Let the media come up like day one
24:38
Speaker 1: and take video of the doorstep. I mean, what the
24:40
Speaker 1: hell are they doing there? We watched as we were
24:42
Speaker 1: watching it live one day, a Domino's pizza guy show
24:45
Speaker 1: up and try to deliver at the front door. Well,
24:47
Speaker 1: all the police were there. The police were like, what
24:48
Speaker 1: are you doing? So, I mean there is some sort
24:51
Speaker 1: of You're right, I don't think you realized it was
24:53
Speaker 1: what it was. But even so, don't you lock it
24:56
Speaker 1: down for two or three days to make doubly sure,
24:58
Speaker 1: because like day two or day one, we saw that
25:00
Speaker 1: blood on video taken by somebody in the media. It
25:04
Speaker 1: just seems that he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
25:07
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I leave it lockdown much longer than that. Yeah,
25:11
Speaker 2: there's just so much possible DNA, the fact that they
25:14
Speaker 2: left the mat, the fact that they didn't even take
25:17
Speaker 2: the holder for the ring camera that was pulled out,
25:20
Speaker 2: and now we know on day ten we found the
25:22
Speaker 2: guy had a flashlight in his mouse slobbering. Was that
25:27
Speaker 2: on the mat and they didn't take the mat. He's
25:29
Speaker 2: standing on the mat literally slabbing. It's terrible. There were
25:35
Speaker 2: so many mistakes. I always hate to armchair quarterback this,
25:39
Speaker 2: but this is like one oh one. Any criminology student
25:42
Speaker 2: would know. You have to maintain that crime scene until
25:46
Speaker 2: you're one hundred percent sure it's done. And remember it
25:48
Speaker 2: wasn't until the third search they realized, oh, maybe we
25:52
Speaker 2: better get the car and the cameras on top of
25:56
Speaker 2: the roof. Search three for they finally are searched for.
26:02
Speaker 2: They finally looked at the septic.
26:04
Speaker 1: Tank and by the way, they let the pool company
26:07
Speaker 1: come and clean the pool. What the hell's going on there?
26:10
Speaker 1: I just when we watched that go down, I thought
26:12
Speaker 1: I got to get Jennifer on because she's gonna freak
26:14
Speaker 1: ott over this. For me, there's a theory out there
26:17
Speaker 1: that kind of makes sense. And again I don't know
26:19
Speaker 1: anything from anything. That's why I have you on. But
26:21
Speaker 1: the theory is that they abducted her, they wanted ransom,
26:25
Speaker 1: she had some sort of a medical issue and died
26:28
Speaker 1: and that's why they never sort of came through with
26:31
Speaker 1: any sort of signs of life. Is that possible or
26:34
Speaker 1: is that plausible to you?
26:36
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think she absolutely passed away very early. And
26:41
Speaker 2: whether it was a medical issue, which it well could
26:43
Speaker 2: have been, just the shock and you know people say
26:46
Speaker 2: shock hypo perfusing. Right, your blood pressure drops down to nothing,
26:51
Speaker 2: your heart rate, your blood pressure goes up, your heart rate,
26:56
Speaker 2: your respirations and you literally can't perfuse oxygen anymore to
27:00
Speaker 2: the brain and you die. It's just it's horrible. But
27:04
Speaker 2: it could have been something even worse than that. I mean,
27:07
Speaker 2: I truly think she was gagged, hooded and thrown in
27:09
Speaker 2: the trunk.
27:10
Speaker 1: Well, how do you think her blood got in the
27:12
Speaker 1: front steps? Then? Do you think that she was bleeding
27:14
Speaker 1: from the hand or something? Oh?
27:17
Speaker 2: I think she was bleed. I know a lot of
27:18
Speaker 2: people think that she aspirated it, and she could have.
27:21
Speaker 2: They're going to know that very easily. Whether there's mucus
27:24
Speaker 2: in it or not, they're going to know right away.
27:26
Speaker 2: But it just doesn't look like that to me. I know,
27:29
Speaker 2: you see those small but it looks to me like
27:31
Speaker 2: that's where he has her, and he pauses to shut
27:35
Speaker 2: those doors. Okay, And so there's multiple drips, and each
27:38
Speaker 2: of those drips make that small spattering. I have all
27:41
Speaker 2: these great pictures of what it looks like for a
27:44
Speaker 2: drop to drop like that, and the multiple drops drop
27:46
Speaker 2: it looks very similar. But I am no blood spatter expert.
27:50
Speaker 2: I always preface it by that. Somebody else who really
27:53
Speaker 2: knows will say, but a lot of people have a
27:56
Speaker 2: lot of opinions on that. That's just kind of where
27:58
Speaker 2: my brain went.
28:00
Speaker 1: And I had you on early on in the case
28:01
Speaker 1: you said that it looks like it could be an
28:03
Speaker 1: inside job. You still feel that way.
28:05
Speaker 2: I still feel there's inside information on this to some degree.
28:09
Speaker 2: I do. I don't think he just and I know
28:13
Speaker 2: now we know January eleventh, he was likely there January
28:17
Speaker 2: thirty first, remember they pointed that out and Savannah Guthrie
28:20
Speaker 2: specifically asked about that. And of course then the hit
28:23
Speaker 2: happens on the first in the early morning hours, So
28:27
Speaker 2: it seems like there was a site survey done, a
28:29
Speaker 2: practice rundne a LOOXI. I do think that there were
28:34
Speaker 2: two people because that walkie talkie I see in the
28:37
Speaker 2: pant But yeah, I think there was some insider information
28:44
Speaker 2: to get them on to Nancy Gusser.
28:45
Speaker 1: Yes, is just like any other case that you've ever examined.
28:48
Speaker 1: I mean, many people who said the Lindberg baby case
28:50
Speaker 1: has similarities here from one hundred years ago, where this
28:54
Speaker 1: guy Charles Dburg you know who he is. He obviously
28:56
Speaker 1: was the guy who was flying across Atlantic and whatever
28:58
Speaker 1: hit the baby was very famous. Somebody stole them, maybe
29:00
Speaker 1: a held for ranch and the baby ended up dying. Anyway,
29:03
Speaker 1: is there a lot of similarities there to this one.
29:06
Speaker 1: I know the technology is very different, but it feels
29:08
Speaker 1: similar because of the fame involved.
29:11
Speaker 2: I think the fame involved the fact that media was contacted.
29:15
Speaker 2: You remember the baby Limberg baby was found very close
29:17
Speaker 2: to the house, right and died very early really in
29:21
Speaker 2: the investigation, and the person ended up being caught, you know,
29:24
Speaker 2: to media pegs how you know. And I've been saying
29:28
Speaker 2: this what I would do since they now say that
29:32
Speaker 2: those first two ransom letters are connected, according to Savannah Guthrie,
29:37
Speaker 2: and then also from what we saw the reaction of
29:40
Speaker 2: law enforcement right putting up the family, having you do
29:44
Speaker 2: the notes. They wouldn't do all that if they didn't
29:46
Speaker 2: believe in those first two notes. So with all of
29:49
Speaker 2: that being known, I say, and people might disagree, I say,
29:53
Speaker 2: put seventy grand in there, which is one bitcoin. Put
29:58
Speaker 2: it in there and see if somebody takes it out,
30:00
Speaker 2: and see if you have a breadcomb. They're going to
30:02
Speaker 2: spend millions and already have millions on this investigation. I
30:05
Speaker 2: would pull it out of case funds and I would
30:07
Speaker 2: do it case. We have a lot of money and
30:09
Speaker 2: case funds. That's what I would do. I call it
30:11
Speaker 2: tickling the wire. Let's bait them and see bitcoin. There's
30:16
Speaker 2: a chain. Actually, I'm going to have a bitcoin guy
30:18
Speaker 2: on tomorrow. I'm so excited. Great and he's going to
30:20
Speaker 2: plain this all. Now that's not to say Batman couldn't
30:24
Speaker 2: be at the end of the chain. But still it's
30:27
Speaker 2: a breadcrumb, and depending on how that money is moved,
30:30
Speaker 2: possibly it might be a breadcrumb that could solve who's
30:33
Speaker 2: behind it.
30:34
Speaker 1: At Coffin Daffer FBI on x at Break the Case
30:37
Speaker 1: on YouTube, So that's the YouTube is your YouTube channel.
30:40
Speaker 1: But then you say there's also a podcast. What is that?
30:43
Speaker 2: My podcast is True Crime with Jen Coffin.
30:45
Speaker 1: Daffer and we find that on YouTube as well.
30:48
Speaker 2: No, that is strictly on podcasts. So I have two
30:51
Speaker 2: different names. I have the YouTube name and then the
30:53
Speaker 2: podcast name.
30:54
Speaker 1: Find her anywhere you can. It's Jennifer Coffin daw for
30:57
Speaker 1: CEO FFI and DA f FR. Follow her at Call
31:00
Speaker 1: for FBI. Your inside has been amazing. I think much
31:03
Speaker 1: of what you've told me over the past month or
31:05
Speaker 1: two is going to turn out to be absolutely true.
31:07
Speaker 1: In this gu three case. So last quick question. I
31:09
Speaker 1: know you've got to go. How do we find resolution?
31:12
Speaker 1: You're saying, pay the bitcoin and see if that pans out.
31:15
Speaker 1: Even if it doesn't, it's.
31:16
Speaker 2: Worth it for me, it's worth it. Bigcoin cases are
31:22
Speaker 2: solved all the time. There's a big case that happened
31:24
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five where they were actually able to
31:28
Speaker 2: track it and find the individual who was responsible for
31:31
Speaker 2: the murder. And there's many others. So it depends on
31:35
Speaker 2: how savvy these people are. Certainly they can't find it
31:39
Speaker 2: from how it was set up. But when you go
31:41
Speaker 2: to take that money out.
31:42
Speaker 1: It's a bread crept and you need a bread crone
31:45
Speaker 1: in a case like this. You don't think she's allt anymore,
31:47
Speaker 1: do you?
31:48
Speaker 2: No? I don't.
31:49
Speaker 1: That's sad.
31:50
Speaker 2: I would say yes, but I don't.
31:53
Speaker 1: Jennifer, your knowledge is amazing. Thank you so much for
31:55
Speaker 1: making time today. Go and follow her everywhere it is,
31:57
Speaker 1: Jennifer coffinever, thank you so much. Thank you, you You're welcome.
32:01
Speaker 1: That's it for this one. Another unshaken and not afraid
32:03
Speaker 1: with Joe pegs to drop very soon. Make sure that
32:06
Speaker 1: you subscribe