Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Part 2 - Holly Pivec & Doug Geivett: Bethel Church, NAR, and ‘Reckless Christianity’

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Part 2 - Holly Pivec & Doug Geivett: Bethel Church, NAR, and ‘Reckless Christianity’ · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Hi, guys.
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  Hope you saw the first episode we did with Holly Pivic and Doug Geivitt.
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  We're talking about the book, Reckless Christianity.
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  And the subtitle is the destructive new teachings and practices of Bill Johnson, Bethel Church,
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  and the global movement of apostles and prophets.
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  We've got both of them here connected from California and Alaska to Wisconsin.
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  And here we are with part two.
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  So please look up part one at worldviewmatters.tv.
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  So guys, we were talking about something in the previous episode and we really didn't get
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  into detail.
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  I think, Holly, you're the one that mentioned you don't consider Bill Johnson a heretic,
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  although we're talking about well, some of the teachings and things sound heretical.
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  So I would love for you to kind of clarify that before we move on.
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  Yeah, so what I said is that we have not said that the leaders of Bethel Church or other
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  leaders in the New Apostolic Reformation are promoting heresy.
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  Heresy, for that might confuse some people because heresy is a technical theological term.
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  And it refers to when if someone rejects something that's considered an essential Christian
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  doctrine, like for example, the deity of Christ, you know, or the doctrine of the Trinity,
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  these are doctrines that you must hold to in order to be a Christian.
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  And if you reject those doctrines, you actually are not a Christian because these are essential
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  Christian doctrines.
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  And so a heretic is someone who would deny an essential Christian doctrine and it's a technical
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  term.
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  However, there are other errors that are very serious.
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  They might not rise to the level of heresy, but they're still very serious errors and they're
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  very unbiblical and they're very damaging and they cause a lot of destruction in people's
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  lives.
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  And so many New Apostolic Reformation teachings and many of Bill Johnson's teachings, we would
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  put in the category of aberrant teachings and that means they might not necessarily rise
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  to the level of heresy, but they are still nevertheless very damaging and destructive
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  and harmful teachings and should be taken very seriously.
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  Thank you.
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  And we'll just say right here, if you guys didn't get it from part one of our interview
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  on reckless Christianity, avoid anything to do with Bethel Church and sadly that includes
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  their worship and we talked about the lack of sound theology and some of their worship
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  music.
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  But Doug, I want to ask you about accountability because we're talking about okay, these
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  are dangerous teachings.
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  Maybe there's a lot of error.
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  Maybe there's some just they're doing some damage really to the body of Christ and some
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  people have left the church because of it.
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  And who holds Bill Johnson accountable?
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  I hear he's got elders, but you know, in their understanding of their interpretation
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  of apostles and prophets, no one is above them, right?
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  So explain to us how that works and the apparent lack of accountability.
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  Well, that's a good question.
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  And when we've heard them address this question, Bill Johnson likes to point out that they
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  have elders and other representatives of the church will say, well, we have an elders
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  group and accountability is a function of the role that the elders play.
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  But this implies without being explicit that if Bill Johnson said something and all the
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  elders disagreed, he would be out or at least he would be, he might be disciplined or it
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  might be overruled in some matter of judgment.
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  But that isn't likely given the apostolic role that he has that the elders themselves
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  do not have.
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  And so it's already intrinsically it's built into the set up in the system that this is
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  not a typical elder ruled church.
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  It's an apostolic ruled church with an official in the lead role who has the authority of
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  an apostle to govern the church.
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  So naturally, elders would be deferential towards him.
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  In addition, they've been accused of demonstrating a kind of nepotistic approach to leadership
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  where family members either of Bill Johnson or the valotins or through a loose network
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  of family members, they become the leaders of the church and they sit on the committees
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  and rule as elders.
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  And so that makes things a little bit more difficult for holding a particular individual
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  accountable.
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  So Holly, back to you, before we move on and we're already in part two of this, we're
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  halfway through our time with you and Doug, what would be a few of the biggest takeaways
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  or maybe the most concerning in your book that you guys talk about regarding Bill Johnson
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  and Bethel Church?
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  As far as takeaways, I think after people read our book, it will be very clear that Bethel
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  Church is a part of the new apostolic reformation movement despite any denials from leaders
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  or others.
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  It's very clear that they hold to the teachings that apostles and prophets are supposed
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  to govern the church, all others are supposed to submit to them and it will become clear
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  that their teachings are actually quite extreme.
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  So for example, Chris Velotin, the head prophet at Bethel Church, he actually teaches that
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  the people who are not submitted to the authority apostles will not have their prayers answered
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  and here's an actual quote from him, we have in our book, he says, when we are under God's
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  authority, which includes being under his appointed leaders, we also partner with the angel
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  of the coast.
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  He goes on, the angels heed the voice of his word.
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  The church is his voice that declares his word on earth.
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  I don't think this means that we have to tell the angels what to do.
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  I'm simply saying that when we pray and prophesy in the name of the Lord, the angels hear
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  the word of the Lord and go out to perform it, but we can only declare a word of the Lord
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  that commissions and sins the angels if we are under authority and therefore have authority.
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  And he talks in context about being under the authority of apostles.
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  So in our they teach that we make prayer declarations, they say that prayer declarations
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  are more powerful, former prayer than what we would normally think of prayer, like biblically
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  and historically prayer is we make requests of God.
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  We make petitions of him.
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  We say, God, if it's your will, you please heal this person or will you please provide
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  finances for this or that kind of thing.
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  But in our they teach that that's an inferior form of prayer that we don't ask God, but
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  we declare with our supposed spiritual authority that such and such will happen.
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  Much like God spoke in Genesis and created is what Bill Johnson would say, what he would
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  compare it to.
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  And so, but they would say when we make these prayer declarations, that commissions the
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  angels and the angels go out and fulfill these declarations.
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  But Chris Valtin was saying there that the only way we can do that is if we're properly
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  submitted to the authorities that God has set up in the church, which would mean being
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  aligned under the authority of apostles and prophets.
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  So Doug Geivett, it's helped me understand something here, they're in a way they're
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  commanding angels or declaring things and expecting the angels to carry them out.
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  The Bible teaches that angels are ministering spirit, sent to serve those who inherit salvation
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  and God watches over his word to perform it.
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  But there it sounds like they're taking those things either out of context or applying
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  them wrong.
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  Could you just speak a little bit further about what Heidi, I'm sorry, Holly was sharing.
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  Well, yeah, we don't have biblical precedent for this.
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  We don't have examples in the New Testament or really for that matter in the Old Testament.
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  We have the angel of the Lord who is a theophany of God himself appearing at various times
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  in the Old Testament.
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  But for angels to be doing the bidding of apostles and their submissive individuals who
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  have come under the covering of an apostle, that's a novelty, that's novel teaching.
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  This is one of my great concerns about the movement is all the novelty that spews
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  forth from their books and their teachings, their preaching, and then what this has passed
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  along by their graduates who leave.
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  They've developed a whole mythology about how the spirit works, about how Christian living,
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  what is to be normal or normative, Christian living, the practice of prayer, you know, there
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  are distortions in the domain of theology that we've talked about.
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  In the previous episode, but we haven't talked as much about the way their practical theology
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  is a distortion of biblical teaching as well.
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  And Holly was just describing the difference between prayer understood as petition, which
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  is biblically solid, Jesus himself practiced petitionary prayer.
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  It's illustrated by the Lord's prayer and by what Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane,
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  not my will, but thine be done was what.
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  So that is the biblical approach to seeing God work in our lives when we have desires
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  and needs, we approach him in a spirit of petition.
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  But the contrasting term is declaration and they make the distinction themselves.
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  They distinguish between declaration prayer and petitionary prayer and they give declaration
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  prayer a great there's a higher premium on the value of declaration prayer because it's
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  what really gets things done.
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  And they'll even speak of how a person might fall back on petitionary prayer if they lack
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  the faith to make prayer declarations.
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  So now we've got a form of prayer called declaration prayer that is foreign to scripture that
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  now takes precedence over petitionary prayer and is seen to be superior to what is obviously
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  biblical prayer.
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  Now if all you do is engage in declaration prayer and you might think that you're a very
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  prayerful person and that you're doing it in a biblical manner because you've listened
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  to what these teachers teach.
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  But unless you pray in what the scriptures really teach is the proper manner of prayer with
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  humility, making requests and also with thanksgiving and so forth, we can certainly pray in alignment
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  with God's promises to us sometimes they're conditional and sometimes not.
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  But we can't just go out and start making declarations for things that we believe are best
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  for ourselves or for other individuals and we can give examples of how so-called declaration
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  prayers have gone sideways and how it helps to explain that have meant that they've changed
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  their tune from explaining what they were doing as declaration prayer and calling it
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  petitionary prayer that God for his own reasons decided not to answer.
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  So very briefly we've got to take a break in a minute Holly I'm hearing word faith or prosperity
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  gospel in a way when you're talking about declaration prayer what is there a fine line
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  here?
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  Yeah so what it is is a NAR leaders teach that starting with the Protestant Reformation
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  God began restoring lost truce practices to the church and so some of the lost truce
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  and practices and apostles and prophets claim to restore to the prosperity gospel teachings
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  and the word of faith doctrines and so they've taken the prosperity gospel and word of faith
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  teachings and put it into the framework of NAR these and they see those teachings as
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  strategies that to bring God's kingdom to earth.
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  Wow wow you can you see how some in the body of Christ if they don't keep up with all
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  this and read books like reckless Christianity and others that it can be confusing.
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  Anyway we've got just a brief break here and when we come back we're going to talk about
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  new revelation and we're also going to talk about more failed prophecy and what constitutes
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  being a prophet if you prophesy and it's wrong.
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  More with Holly Pivik and Doug Geivett when we come back on World View Matters.
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  Today's show is brought to you by Harbinger's Daily.
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  World News Biblically Understood.
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  Stay informed at Harbinger's Daily.com.
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  The book is called Reckless Christianity we'll get right back to that in a minute but
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  us an email go to worldviewmatters.tv send us an email let us know you're interested
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  in sponsoring the show so chapter five in the book Reckless Christianity is called elevating
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  the Bethel Apostles and prophets giving new revelation and I don't know who to go to on
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  this first holly or Doug so I'll just go over to Doug because this seems like I think
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  of just the first verse that comes to mind is one of the last verses in the revelation
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  where if you had anything to this this the word of God or if you take away from the word
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  of God I mean you're talking curses you're talking severe warnings and new revelation so
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  help us to understand what are they trying to communicate by saying they receive new
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  revelations from God and then give it to their people and as a mouthpiece for God go ahead
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  and share that Doug. Yeah so that's right they believe that in a variety of ways they receive
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  new revelations and it's new information for the church. Now the prophetic role could be
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  predictive it might be predictive prophecy that prophet has received about something that
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  God will do in the future or whether God does it or not it will happen in the future and God
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  has revealed it to the prophet but the prophets did not limit themselves to predictive prophecy they
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  were preachers or fourth tellers of God's truth any message that God had for the people could
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  come directly from God through a prophet and that didn't have to concern the future at all it could
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  concern the present or the significance of the past for example prophets called down judgment and
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  said you know you're going to be faced with serious consequences because of your behavior and you
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  need to change your ways this was typical of the book of the book of Isaiah Jeremiah and of other
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  prophets in the Hebrew Bible. These prophets today also claim to receive direct revelation from God
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  for the church for individuals for nations even and the way that these these revelations might
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  be discerned would be either privately so God comes and speaks to them Jesus might appear in person
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  to leave a message with the prophet Chris valeton as he has claimed we describe that in our book
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  uh or they may as as Bill Johnson talks about often enough is they may just be studying scripture
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  or reading the Bible and the Holy Spirit will breathe on the pages of scripture and they will
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  receive a new message about what this passage means now it's not a message that you would normally
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  identify if you were just reading the scriptures for yourself and trying to study it responsibly
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  but it is something that's extra that is provided in terms of insight because of the special miraculous
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  work of the spirit in a kind of inspiration of the meaning of the text and so this cannot be tested
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  this is a problem because if you're sitting in the congregation on a Sunday morning and Bill Johnson
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  or some other apostle or prophet is preaching and says this is the message of God from this passage
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  you might be scratching your head wondering where in the world is this coming from i don't i don't see
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  it here and the explanation would be that God illuminated the passage for that individual supernaturally
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  well how would you know whether or not that was to be trusted that this really was God speaking
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  sometimes it's an application too that this is what this passage means for our church today
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  and how would you know that this was inspired by God and a true revelation from God if you couldn't
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  just take the so-called apostles or prophets word for it then when it comes to
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  the prophet of course it's another matter altogether because they have a very poor track record
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  when they have made very specific prophecies about the future and been dramatically off-target and
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  had to apologize for getting it wrong let's talk about that apologizing for getting it wrong you
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  got to have a pretty big PR department that's going to do damage control if you've got prophets
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  making wrong prophecies if they're proven false I'm just astounded by the way when you were talking
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  I was going to say one of the things that really don't like hearing from I mean maybe since
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  Sir Christians is you know when you're they're reading the Bible what does this passage mean to me
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  and think wow that's not how we should interpret this scripture what it means to me what how do I
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  feel when I read this but Holly back to you about the failed prophecies and failed predictions prophecies
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  when they say this and then they apologize later doesn't that disqualify a person from at least
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  if that was the Old Testament standard of being a prophet right right in Deuteronomy we see that
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  you know if a prophet makes a prediction and it doesn't come to pass then that disqualifies them
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  but in NAR what they'll say is that that was the Old Testament standard and since New Testament times
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  that standard no longer applies a genuine prophet of God can make a prediction or give prophecies
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  that turn out to be wrong and still be a genuine prophet of God so for example dozens of
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  prophets in NAR predicted and prophesied that Donald Trump would win a second term in office that
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  he would actually be in the White House and after that Chris Bellison was one of those prophets
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  of Bethel Church and he apologized he said I really want to apologize sincerely apologize for
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  missing the prophecy about Donald Trump he goes on I was completely wrong I take full responsibility
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  for being wrong there's no excuse for it I think it doesn't make me a false prophet but it does
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  actually create a credibility gap and and we cite that in our book reckless Christianity so it's
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  a very common teaching in NAR that a genuine prophet can make mistakes when they prophesy and still
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  be a genuine prophet of God and the thing that people need to realize is they're not just claiming
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  that Chris Bellison is not just claiming he has a gift of prophecy there are many
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  Charismatics and Pentecostals who would say that you can make a mistake if you have the gift of
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  prophecy and still have the gift and that's another issue but in this movement what NAR leaders
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  are saying is that they could be authoritative prophets with functions and authority similar to
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  what like the great Old Testament prophets had that that even though they have this great authority
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  and in similar functions to the Old Testament prophets that they're allowed to make mistakes
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  when they prophesy and still be a genuine prophet of God so it's like they want it both ways they
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  want the authority and functions of the Old Testament prophets but they don't want to be held
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  to the same Old Testament standards wow I hope this is helpful to you guys if you're watching
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  and listening understanding the NAR understanding Bethel Bill Johnson the book is called
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  reckless Christianity and I can't believe we are really running out of time here and I needed to
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  get to a couple of these questions but let's just jump to page 172 173 in your book you guys and
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  Doug I'll direct this to you we really haven't talked about miracles specifically here or in part
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  one of this interview but you're you ask where are the greater works and it's referring to when
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  Jesus said greater works than these will you do talking to his disciples his followers could you
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  explain the context and what is meant by that because obviously I don't know if anyone that
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  raised anyone from the dead or healed someone who's blind but anyway please share and explain
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  well actually this is a natural segue from our previous discussion of failed prophecies because
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  there are numerous reasons why we shouldn't trust prophets who get things wrong and we shouldn't
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  trust prophets who can't even interpret the Bible correctly so what is this other connection well
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  one concern I have is with the way they interpret John 1412 where Jesus is said to have said to his
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  disciples in the upper room as he was approaching the end of his life that the works that they
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  had he had done they would do also and even greater works than these would they do now there's a
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  translation so called translation which is actually an appalling paraphrase of the bottom
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  called the Passion Translation to compose deeply by Brian Simmons and that's another story in
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  itself I don't have time for that but that translation so called uses the word miracles in place
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  of the word works most of the English translations of the Bible and you can check me on this I know
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  I'm right about this we'll say that the Greek word Ergon in that passage used in the original
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  text of the gospel of John is to be translated as works they translate it as miracles because they
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  make the inference that Jesus must have been talking about his miracles that you will do greater
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  miracles than I now this is problematic for grammatical reasons and for translational responsibility
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  this is not a reliable translation and that's not a reliable inference I think since he was speaking
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  to his disciples although he did say that this would be true for all who believe he meant that they
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  would see this happening in their own ministries and so where do we find their ministries recounted
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  for us in the New Testament well in the book of Acts so if you want to understand what Jesus is
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  talking about in John 1412 you look for the facts in the book of Acts you go there to see what was
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  so great about the works that they did and if their miracles fine but you would be hard pressed to
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  find a single miracle that any of the apostles or others did in the first century of the church
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  recounted by Luke and Acts that transcended in nature or degree the miracles of Jesus
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  Jesus was involved in his own resurrection from the dead for goodness sake they were not able to
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  top the miracles of Jesus in that respect now they try to describe ways in which they have but
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  they haven't what I believe is that Jesus promised that they would be able to do things on a
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  magnitude these would be works in sharing the gospel of the kingdom went beyond what they had
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  done during his lifetime and this happened on the very first day that the gospel was preached from
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  Pentecost when Peter preached and everyone from different regions of the world speaking different
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  languages understood him in their own foreign language that is the beginning of the fulfillment
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  of John 1412 and we see it realized throughout the book of Acts now how does this connect with
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  the failed prophecies point well if a person is supposed to a believer is supposed to be able to
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  outstrip Jesus in the performance of his miracles then he ought to do so in the realm of the prophetic
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  as well and yet Jesus never got it wrong and he never had to apologize for making a mistake
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  in predictive prophecy nor did any other biblical prophet but today they make excuses for getting
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  things wrong even though they claim that they should be outperforming Jesus in the realm of the
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  miraculous wow that's that gives us a lot of understanding of not only that that scripture but
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  what they believe it's saying and thank you for pointing out the I don't even use the word
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  translation when you have passion in the same sentence it's a just a loose paraphrase the
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  passion paraphrase there are others but thank you Doug Holly yeah we're running out of time
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  we are out but where can people get reckless Christianity or brand new book what's the best
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  place and maybe a second option yeah they could buy it at amazon or really order it anywhere
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  that book you know that sells books the publisher website within stock or Barnes and Noble
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  and just anywhere you can order books do you have links to it on your website at hollypivic.com
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  yes it can go to hollypivic.com and find it there under the tab that says books
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  okay it's only been out about a month so we can still say it's brand new but guys thank you
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  for digging in and all the research you do I know it it can be I don't know maybe somewhat tedious
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  at times it's but this is a topic that the body of Christ needs to hear about and boy
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  we have a lot of work to do still and we'll never run out of things to do right as far as discernment
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  goes and helping the body of Christ yeah well god bless you both we appreciate your time today
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  thanks for connecting with us on worldview matters thank you David all right what a great two
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  parts we had to to put that in two parts because it's such a big topic guys the NAR some of their
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  beliefs and we just really scratched the surface in these two podcasts so I hope you dig in a
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  little bit deeper at least you know check out the book if you can but I appreciate you guys tuning
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  in we've got a whole lot more coming god bless you and as always keep speaking the truth about things
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  that matter