Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / Dr. Mamobo Ogoro // Allyship is a Verb
Transcript
- Danielle Townsend: Welcome back to Rough Drafts, the podcast from Bounce that goes behind the outcome and into the thinking, the questions before the answers and the drafts before the finished thing. Today's guest is someone whose work I genuinely find it really difficult to put into a single sentence. She's very impressive indeed. ⁓ And it's great to have her on Rough Drafts for exactly that reason. So we can really unpack and unpick her starting point and how she got to where she is now. So Dr. Momobu Ogoro is a Nigerian Irish social psychologist and entrepreneur, the youngest broadcaster on News Talk, I believe, and the founder of the award-winning social enterprise, Gurum, an organization whose mission is to unify across differences. So we'll unpack what that actually means today, hopefully. In 2024, she was listed as the first Echoing Green Fellow in Ireland in Good Company. She and her other fellows are Michelle Obama and Van Jones. So she's she's in good great company there. She's recently won Female Entrepreneur of the Year for the South Dublin Local Enterprise Office Awards. And she spends her time working with organizations around the world, helping them develop intercultural leaders. So ⁓ hopefully we'll see exactly what intercultural leaders look like later on. She has somehow managed to make time to join the line up for bounce in January, just gone in Trinity College. And she joined a panel discussing what it means to be human. She was joined by Gillian Henderson, Michael McDermott and guided by Jack Murray. And after her appearance, so many attendees said, we want to hear more. just more, more, more. So I'm so thrilled that Momobo has made time out of her impressive diary and schedule and career. to be able to spend a little bit of time with us and talk to us. So welcome. You're very welcome, Imomo. I'm sorry, I probably missed out lots of new accolades since I last wrote that. But welcome to the podcast. Mamobo: I'm so excited to be here Danielle. Thank you so much for having me. Danielle Townsend: Great. I suppose just to kind of I suppose for our listeners, I'd love to just kind of talk to you about maybe the thinking behind everything that you do. So the work that you do kind of focuses around belonging and allyship and identity. And I suppose I'd love to kind of maybe look at all of those aspects. But before we do that, maybe we can set the scene a little bit and maybe just you might start by telling us, you know. what it was like growing up in Ireland and what led you to study psychology in the first place. Mamobo: Yes, I suppose to start everything off. Growing up in Ireland, my family moved here from Nigeria when I was three years old, and this was around 1999, 2000. And it was an Ireland that was very different. I grew up in Enniskorthy County, Wexford, and at that time there was not a lot of migration. There was not a lot of migrant families, let alone African black African families within that area. And obviously as a child, you're not. really aware of any of these sort of socio-political things that are going on. You just want to live and let everything be. And I had experiences as a child growing up that where I was othered essentially and where I didn't quite understand why aspects of myself were othered. And when I say othered, mean, ⁓ put to the side, excluded, not being part of, let's say the wider we. And I didn't understand it as a child. I had a specific experience in secondary school where I had a lot of racist bullying and the racist bullying actually caused me to move school. And, you know, as a child, as a teenager, when you're like coming into yourself, those kind of experience really change you. And for me, it added me to it made me feel much more curious than anything, because I honestly didn't understand why this was happening, why there was certain bullying, why there was xenophobia. and why there was racism in that. Of course, I had fantastic other experiences. have fantastic friends that helped me through those experiences and my family and my rock. But that curiosity really stuck with me ⁓ and I really wanted to understand why prejudice existed or why hate existed. Side note, I wanted to study performing arts but my parents are Nigerian and they were like, you're not doing that. Ironically, my parents are both creative so I was like, why would you let me do this? My mom's a musician, my father's a filmmaker. So was like, what's going on here lads? But they were like, do something that can give you a bit of stability. Once you get the degree, you can do all your creative stuff. So the second choice was to lean back into the curiosity of prejudice. And so I did my leave insert and then I did my undergrad in psychology and criminal justice. Then eventually did my master's and PhD in understanding migrant identities and understanding what belonging looks like for migrant communities across different generations, specifically looking at first and second generation across ⁓ individualized identity, group-based identity, and wider culture as well. And from all those experiences, my research, of course, you can argue some days and some level like, you shouldn't have personal experience with research and stuff like that. Of course, we have our methodologies and everything like that. It was my personal experience that really gave me the momentum and the push to do all of this work and ultimately finding my social enterprise, Garam, which is a direct application of that lived experience and the research as well. Danielle Townsend: So like that, you know, that kind of initial starting point of feeling othered, like how did can you just maybe describe maybe something that for us just like how did how did you feel you were, you know, so like sidelined as such? Mamobo: Yeah, you ultimately feel that. And especially when you are a teenager, when you're a child, you're just like, go on with yourself. I don't care. Especially me as a child, didn't care. But when you are, let's say, the formative, your teenage years, that sense of needing to fit in or that sense of belonging is huge to form that sense of identity. And when you have experiences of racism, Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Mamobo: of feeling other, let alone just even just trying to fit in and being awkward. It compounds to a feeling of just sadness, hopelessness, and a feeling of loneliness as well. And that loneliness is something that has come struck in my own research, and that I've seen in my research with ⁓ second generation migrants that live in rural areas specifically. So that loneliness with alongside with sadness and alongside with It's a thing called internalized racism, where you have certain people's beliefs around your community, people's beliefs around your identity. You tend to believe that about yourself as well, which can ultimately lean into other psychological things, anxiety, depression, X, Y, and Z. I was lucky that I never lived into the more severe sides of things, but there is a link between racism and depression. But for my own sake, ⁓ I really looked, those kind of feelings allowed me to channel curiosity more than anything. was, I remember ⁓ when I was actually leaving secondary school and first year moving to the other school, I knew I was moving. The girl that was harassing my life, I was like, I have this thing, it's called your locus of control. So I have an internal locus of control, meaning that what can I control? I look to myself rather than look to others. So I tend to be like, what's wrong with me? ⁓ ⁓ And when I knew that I was leaving this school, I really put a lot of pressure onto myself and I was like, I'm the wrong person. I, everything. It's a good and bad thing. So when you win, you're like, I did that the best. But when you're losing, you're like, what did I do wrong? What am I doing wrong? I have an internal locus in control. But then I had to reflect and then think of like, okay, this was, this is, this is not necessarily all about me. It could be something else. So when I was leaving that school, I actually wrote a letter because I knew that like, was never going to see this girl again. I wrote a letter to her being like, I don't know what is wrong with you, what I ever did to you. I hope you have a great life. And then I went off my way. I don't know if she ever saw that letter. Don't know. But I had to really have that closure for myself because I knew that ⁓ if I didn't have that, I will still have those internal feelings of, ⁓ I'm not good enough and nobody's ever going to want me in their clique or the group or because I'm this big black person, nobody has ever wanted to be part of their friendship group, all those kind of teenager thoughts. So I needed to go through that process. And then because I'm very thinky person, a curious person around these things, really allowed me to double down on the research end of things. Danielle Townsend: And I think she's definitely seen all your socials and how well you've done. So I'm sure she's keeping an eye on you. But don't they say hurt people hurt people. And I wonder, was it easier, especially because you're right in those teenage years, know, it's their formative years and about fitting in and not standing out and not being the odd one out. But I wonder, did it kind of. Did you think maybe if I could intellectualise, because you said you were a thinky kind of person, if I can intellectualise this discrimination, I can almost make it easier to understand rather than I'm not good enough, I'm not like, you know what I mean? that there's actually maybe that it drew you, you know, the pain and anguish of being persecuted by this person maybe drew you towards your PhD ultimately. Mamobo: And that's what my therapist was trying to unpack. She's like, okay, put the brain aside. Put the brain aside. She's like, let's go into the feelings, all right? Which I am working on. But yeah, for me, I try to really understand it and intellectualization is a way of coping, to be honest. And it's a way for people to feel good about certain situations or cope with certain situations. Danielle Townsend: That's a therapy session. Mamobo: But ultimately what needs to be done, yes, we need to understand what had happened and the context and the deep and everything like that. But then we also need to understand which I have worked through as I've entered into my adulthood. But we also need to understand the emotional layer and the feeling of processing the hearts and processing the pain and the grief. But when it comes to that intellectualization around it, I'm very grateful that I just that's just a characteristic that I have in. In Nigerian dialect, ⁓ it's called Pidgin English. There's a phrase when someone calls you or wasabi, it means like you're a know-it-all. So they called me to be called a wasabi as a child because I would be the child that's like, but why can we do this? But who said that? That really annoying child. According to the encyclopedia of this. So that intellectualization really allowed me to ⁓ process. cope at the time with what was happening to me, but it ultimately helped me steer into my career that I am now. Subsequently, I've done a lot of work, still am doing work on that sort of emotional layer as I transitioned into adulthood and now transitioning in my own career. But ⁓ those two things were necessary for me to kind of be the person that I am today. Danielle Townsend: Mm. And I suppose you mentioned they're like the first generation, second generation migrant, you know, like is there I know that is there the difference between the two is is that really understood? You know what mean? Is that really kind of we just kind of put it, you know, put everyone into the one category and just say that's, they're they're migrants or you know what I mean? Like is there actually any level of like. fluent knowledge around that or is your research the first to of unpeak that? Mamobo: Well, in the global context, there is a lot of research when it comes to different generations of migrants looking into multi-ethnic, multi-cultural societies. So in like France, in the US, in the UK, there's a lot of research because they have the history of first, second generation, third generation, fourth generation migrants. But when it comes to Ireland, was, and me, I was grasping at straws when I was doing my PhD. There's very little research. when it came to the migrant, well there was a lot of research when it came to the migrant experience, but it was siloed into one experience. One because we didn't have, let's say a quantitative amount of second generation migrants that were over 18 that we could actually talk to. And it would be much more harder ethically speaking to get permanent parent's information, all that kind of stuff. So from a research point of view, we're still at the very early days. in terms of understanding particularly second and third generation migrant experiences in Ireland. I know DCU have done a lot of work. They have their research unit around migration and inequality diversity, and they actually have done subsequent work on ⁓ second generation migrant experiences in Ireland. However, there hasn't been a lot of deep, deep research. One, because we're still very early days and quantitative, from a quantitative, ⁓ AKA numbers point of view. ⁓ we're still kind of looking at how we can get this sort of cohort of young adults actually to participate. But from a qualitative point of view, there is some research out there. And when I say qualitative, it's talking to individuals and having interviews and sharing stories. From a qualitative point of view, there is some research out there when it comes to second generation migrant experiences, particularly looking at mixed heritage, those mixed heritage identities and their experiences growing up in. in Ireland, for example, the modern baby homes and things like that and their experiences from like the 1960s onwards. But when it comes to, let's say from a migration part of you, when it comes to those migrants that my family included, that came from the late 90s, early 2000s, those children, they're only like, what, 22 at the stage. So we're learning as it comes to those experiences. And there's a lot of nuance, actually, if you want to hear about it. But just to conclude that point, there's still a lot we need to learn from an Irish perspective from first and second generation migrants. Danielle Townsend: Because it's very new, you know, there was I remember a time like, you know, growing up and there was so few people of color around, you know, and I suppose the the fear would be that there is I mean, maybe the, you know, the supports are just kind of left out, you know, that that initial experience of coming to Ireland. And then there's no other thought about, what does it mean? What does it feel like? You know, what does it What is it like to live here as a 16, 17 year old? You know what mean? I think it's great to hear that there is, I suppose, there's best practice to look at from other countries who have a longer history. But it's exciting, though, right, as well, because it's almost like you're kind of able to nearly define what the future could be or look at those challenges head on. So it's a really exciting, I think it's really exciting area to look into. And so then this. This was kind of percolating. And I suppose in terms of the timeline, you were starting your PhD or were you in your PhD when you said, groom is a thing now. I'm going to actually set this up. So whereabouts was that? Was that undergraduate or into the PhD? Mamobo: That was year two of my PhD and guess when that was? 2020. So everybody was... No. Exactly. I did make banana bread and I did eat quite a lot. I'm not going to lie to you, but at the same time I was doing that. So basically it was COVID time. Garam had been in my head as a separate project idea for quite a couple of years at that point. Danielle Townsend: ⁓ we were thinking banana bread. No, you were setting up a social outro. You Mamobo: but I just kind of left it off, left it off, left it off. And it was COVID time and we had that Black Lives Matter, everyone's doing the black squares and everything like that, but I did feel the conversation was not nuanced enough. I did feel the conversation was quite black and white and I wanted to add something to it. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna start this project that I had in my head. It was a community-based intercultural dialogue project. The goal was not to have a specific outcome, policy, strategy. No, it was just to have a space for dialogue where people of different backgrounds can come together and talk about social, sociocultural issues. We don't need to get along, but we need to have a space for dialogue and connection and community. And it was all online. I had friends that came on, some people that I didn't know as well came on and they just wanted a space ⁓ to discuss these issues in a respectful and open manner. Danielle Townsend: And this was all happening online then. Mamobo: I actually had to get the permission of my supervisors to be like, I'm like, I'm, I need to do this project for myself. I need to do this thing. ⁓ if you give, I would be glad to take your, your permission, but I'm still going to do it anyway. And they gave me their permission and here we are a couple of years later. So it was, it was, Garmin's a COVID baby. We're completely remote. People are like, how are you doing remote? Like we started off as a remote team and here we are still. So ⁓ we started off there and since then it's just snowballed. I didn't think, I didn't know what social enterprise was. I didn't know what social entrepreneurship was. I just wanted to start this project with people that wanted to bridge across differences. That was it. Danielle Townsend: And so, like, there's, I suppose there's there's a real ability to hide in digital spaces and be a keyboard warrior. And you see that quite a lot in common sections and things like that. ⁓ Was it the communication? What was the I suppose was the vehicle, you know, online because it had to be online during Covid or was it always intended to be a digital space and. allowing people to kind of maybe be more respectful online when they're connecting with people, which is the majority of the ways we connect now. Mamobo: ⁓ no, there was no intention behind it. I didn't really think about it the time. I just started like most entrepreneurs. they just start whatever works with what's available. And because we were in the COVID time, everything just had to be online. If I were to start it on in person, I don't know what I would have done if that was the case, if there was no COVID. ⁓ but I think in terms of how we started, it was just what we had. And even when I'm talking to other entrepreneurs or I'm starting a project and they're all thinking about the X, Y, that. just start with what you have right now, with what's available, and then you iterate and you iterate and you iterate. So I think for us, there was never really a plan in place. I just wanted to start and I did. Danielle Townsend: Amazing. And you have your three pillars, which I was snooping on your website, ⁓ elevate, enable and equip. So you might actually just expand on ⁓ who you elevate, who you enable and who you equip. Mamobo: Yeah, so we started off as sort of like a digital space due to just circumstance. And what we did was create sort of digital campaigns and projects around diverse voices and around diverse experiences. And when I say diverse, I don't mean people of minoritized background, diversity within itself, which is everybody and their experiences and the nuances of their experiences for us to bridge across our humanity and our differences. So we started off with ⁓ shows and projects. Now we have a podcast and partnership with a news talk. And that is to elevate the voices of different and diverse communities so we can unify across our differences. Because hearing stories is one of the best tools to building empathy ⁓ across differences essentially. And that's huge evidence behind that. So as we were doing those projects and things like that, communities were coming to us saying like, ⁓ I want to start this project. Can you help me start this project? ⁓ I want to do this podcast. ⁓ I want to do this show. I want to do this thing. And we were like, we don't have the money, time or classes to do any of that. ⁓ But we can teach you how to do it. So that kind of started our community based programs where we create ⁓ projects and it's funded by partners such as the Arts Council ⁓ and Screen Ireland, where we create ⁓ community based programs around intercultural media and education that support communities. And we have a program called the White Shot. program called Close Up. And these community-based programs support intercultural storytelling through media, essentially. So we get community-based workshops for people to learn about storytelling, digital media, creative content creation. So they can ultimately be their own storytellers and be their own bridges as well. And then we have residency in the summer where people are selected to come to be a part of a deeper program where they get mentorship opportunities for work placements. And also one person actually wins two and a half grand to create a digital project essentially. Ultimately that all accumulates to our annual event called the GERM Gathering where we enable communities to tell their stories on a bigger platform and we have roughly 200, 250 people at that event which we started in 2024. And then lastly we were noticing that we were doing all of this community-based work which is necessary, which is needed. But in order to get ⁓ systemic change, in order to get transformative change, you need to actually go where power lies and to go ⁓ to the institutions, to the governments, and also to the economic powers, the businesses, in order for them to actually shift perspectives for the long term. So that was where our ⁓ equipping leaders pillar came in. So ironically, I think as I was doing this, I was kind of... I got the, as we were doing the grassroots work, I got the opportunity to take off my social psychologist hat and I was like enjoying it. I loved it and everything like that. So when we started our Equipping Leaders work, I really didn't see it as impact because I was like, oh, we're engaging with communities. I don't want to engage with these business leaders and all these kinds of stuff. Oh, I don't like these politicians and things like that. But then as we continue to engage with them and with some challenging from my advisors challenging me. saying that this is impact because you are changing the long-term experiences of the grassroots community that you're working with. You are changing perspectives, which will ultimately change policy, which will ultimately change the lived experiences. So we started off by actually doing talks, doing workshops, and now we actually have fully-fed corporate programs and workplace strategy, strategy implementation and things like that, consultancy. to support intercultural practice at a strategic level. So I had to put my social psychologist hat on, back on unfortunately, to support these individuals to get evidence-based frameworks to apply intercultural practice on a sort of more wider institutional organizational lens in which now we've actually supported in terms of our equipping leaders over 10,000 individuals in terms of intercultural learning and practice. Danielle Townsend: Let's That's incredible, because I think there's a fear that, you know, diversity and inclusion has almost got the same the greenwashing that sustainability has had, that there's a tick box maybe to some diversity and inclusive procedures that within organizations or institutions. And it's really great to see that, you know, while you're doing the workshops, you're actually doing the training of the key decision makers and then you're actually. bringing it right up to policy as well. And I mean, think that's the only way to make kind of change happen is to kind of look at that and know, better women to get things through policy. I'm sure we'll see more about that. But one of the things that I know you've spoken about quite a lot is about this idea of belonging. And it's not just a feeling. It's something that is like designed for it's, you know, it can be withheld from a system. and it can be embraced. ⁓ But when did you first understand belonging that way that, you know, belonging is not just a given, you know, ⁓ and it can be experienced differently and it's very it can be very personal too. And it's kind of become almost like the lens through which Gurum does everything as well. So how does that work? Mamobo: Yeah, belonging, a lot of people assume that belonging is something that is just a feeling, which it is. And part of it is hugely important and it's hugely important for people to actually participate in human life. We are social animals and social beings. through that socialization, we create our institutions, we create our cultures, we create our organizations as well. So as I was doing a lot of my work during my undergrad and my master's and PhD, I got deep into understanding ⁓ what belonging actually looks like across certain layers. ⁓ And specifically when we talk about belonging, ⁓ belonging from a sort of interpersonal to institutional layer is the extent to which an individual or a group have a sense of self, let's say, within themselves. within the group and within an institution. And that ultimately fits into the guise of our wider culture as well. If people don't have a sense of self within themselves, that's where you have, let's say, identity-based issues. That's where you have psychological-based issues. And that's where you, people need to do that self-work essentially. And the group, if people don't have a sense of belonging to the group, it ultimately leads to that self-work again. But if people don't have an ultimate sense of belonging to the group, that's where you have fragmentation within groups as well. So think of your family. If you don't have a sense of belonging to your family, or you don't feel like part of your family, there's going to be tension, there's going to be conflict, there's going to be ⁓ misunderstanding. There's going to, of course, there's always misunderstanding, but there's going to be that sense of lack of cohesion. And then when you don't have a sense of belonging to the wider institution, whether it may be your workplace, whether it may be your town, whether it may be your country, it's all different facets to that sense of belonging. If you don't have that sense of belonging to that wider institution, especially if you are a group, it may lead to ⁓ a lack of social cohesion on a community or group-based ⁓ integration point of view. So belonging is hugely essential to help people engage with themselves, with their groups, with wider culture or wider society as well. If that sense of belonging or even safety is not even there, then it's going to be much more harder work to actually get people to get along at the end of the day. And that's kind of what our work fundamentally is. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. And it's the last while I've been ⁓ looking at your socials, which anyone who is listening to this should actually just go to your socials. They're brilliant. And I just love the way you just take a no-gust and just kind of expand on it. So I'm just going to ask you just there was one particular real I did see and it was just around your definition of allyship. And allyship is a verb, not a noun. I was like, actually just, I was like, it just made me, it made me think so deeply about that. And I just thought, right, I really need to, I need to bring that to another audience. Mamobo: So when it comes to allyship, and a lot of people assume that it's something that we can just like put on a t-shirt or put on a badge or put on a hat. And that's okay. It's completely fine. People need to see visible allies ⁓ there. But the actual difference, and just in terms of the definition of an ally, somebody that does not necessarily belong to a certain underrepresented or marginalized group, but they are doing the work to unlearn, relearn and learn about said community. But ultimately when things get hard, when tension arises and when an ally becomes ⁓ a verb, a doing word, when things happen, allies have the courage to step up. When things happen, allies have the courage to step in, to call out, to call in. Calling in means it's like taking someone to the side and having a conversation. And allies do that work. And it can be quite difficult when there's tension, when there's power relations, when there's workplace politics, allies do that work to that courageous work to step in when especially when that community voice is not there. Allies do the work as well to stay quiet when another person needs to speak or somebody from said community needs to speak. So I often see people wearing like doing things they go, oh, I'm an ally. Oh, great. But when things get hard, what do you do? That will tell you the answer of whether you are an ally. Danielle Townsend: Yeah. Mamobo: you are actively embodying what an ally is as a verb, a doing word, ⁓ rather than being an ally in terms of an adjective as a descriptive word. So we need people to do that uncomfortable work in terms of having that courage to step into that unknown space. having that courage to reassess their own privileges and power, because a lot of times people don't know the social power that they hold, and doing that work to ⁓ do the uncomfortable, messy parts. That's where we see true equity work in practice. And I find even myself, sometimes people think, ⁓ you have all these identities, and sometimes I have to be waken up to the privileges and the power that I hold, especially as I'm entering into... ⁓ as I now I'm a senior leader and now I'm entering into certain rooms and spaces. Now I have to be an ally for certain communities and speak up with certain communities in order to have their say or have an equitable practice in that space. So it's important to understand that allies don't come from any community, allies come from any communities, minority, majority, but it's the work that we actually do to ensure that there is a fair and equitable outcome for whatever. we are practicing. Danielle Townsend: And it's just that thing, isn't it? Because I think that there's an awful lot of performative things out there now. So performative allyship, you know what I mean? It's kind of like almost like wanting to appear like you're an ally, but actually not doing anything. I mean, I think I hope we're getting better at that as an Irish society. But what are your thoughts on that? How is Ireland doing? Ireland, Inc. Mamobo: I think socially, we are a very progressive nation. We believe in the human rights and human dignity of all people. That is, I think most, if not all people in Ireland, yeah, I will agree with like, do you believe that everyone's worthy of human dignity and respect? Yeah, it makes sense. ⁓ On a surface level, I do believe politically speaking that Danielle Townsend: Hmm. Mamobo: we still need to unpack some deeper levels of how that is put into practice as a nation, particularly as it relates to things such as housing, things such as migration, how there's a shift in skew when it comes to ⁓ the perception of our LGBTQ plus friends. So I think when it comes to the fundamental, yeah. the ⁓ yeah everyone's worthy of dignity human dignity and respect most if not all Irish people are like yeah durr but when it comes to the deeper practices and how that's put into practice how that's put into policy how that's put into and how we especially from a governmental lens how we allocate resources and that's that's something that needs to be unpacked and much more deeper I don't have the power to change that some people will even argue that I shouldn't be talking about this because I'm not, quote unquote, Irish enough, but I will argue to the fact that I'm privileged, first and foremost, to have been raised in this country and I have been accultured. When I say accultured, mean, Ireland is the only culture that I've been raised in, so it's all I know. And I'm privileged to say that and ultimately to contribute to that and the future of that as well. So I think there needs to be some work on a deeper level that individuals and communities and the wider nation needs to do, like any other nation, to be honest. Danielle Townsend: And when you're kind of thrown into the fire, of those meeting those people with, you know, totally polarizing opinions, you know, you've far right discourse and people are defensive and abusive. How do you actually hold that together and and allow for a conversation to happen? Do you know what mean? Like, how does it how do you stay? I suppose how do you stay level headed ⁓ and take all of those opinions in when you might be inside your brain screaming? Mamobo: Mm. Well, depends on the level-headedness, depends on the person. I'm not gonna lie to you. So if it's like my uncle or my mom, I have to like take deep breaths. If it's a stranger, I can be quite level-headed. But if it's a family member, I'm just like, ah, internally. But essentially, a lot of intercultural work and a lot of even conflict dialogue work, and that's part of intercultural practice, is basically understanding yourself. Danielle Townsend: you Mamobo: A lot of people think that, ⁓ intercultural work is just like, ⁓ what does the Chinese do? What does Nigerians do? What does this culture do? And separating themselves from it. But intercultural work is, half of it is actually looking at your own bias, your own prejudices and how you respond to certain things, essentially. So with that, it is practicing how to actually engage in dialogue rather than debate. And dialogue means deeply listening rather than having formulated arguments in your head. The first thing requires is deeply listening. The second thing is being able to ask questions. And then the third thing is being able to try to build a bridge with that person. Of course, some people have their own beliefs that are completely out of yours. But if you can find areas of agreement with people, then people are much more open. to have that dialogue with you. So for me, it's first and foremost, that's the sort of communication way. But first and foremost, understanding myself, understanding my triggers, understanding ⁓ the lines that I don't cross when it comes to dialogue and communication. If people are saying, ⁓ we just need to execute it not, I'm like, I'm not having this conversation. And we move on. But if there's areas that I can find ⁓ connection, rather than imposing my ideas and my beliefs, I... turn on the curiosity hat on, and then I just ask more questions and much more deeper. And a lot of times if you ask questions in a calm, neutral manner, and even ask further questions, especially if we're going into topics of migration or whatever, people tend to step up, people tend to, what's the word? ⁓ They tend to step on their own foot because they don't know where they got the information. It's an underlying belief that just came out of nowhere or came out with a feeling of threat or a feeling of fear or a feeling of... of a lack of belonging even. So one thing I always do, especially if I'm talking to a taxi driver and then they say something, I'm just like, where did you get that from? I got it from this and this and what, where did that come from? Oh, I thought it was this way. So you get them going deeper and deeper and deeper until they actually kind of do that unpacking themselves and ask more and more questions to ensure that they actually can even, the light switch can flip. And then finding an area of connection. For example, if someone's talking about the houses and all these people are taking our houses and homes, finding an area of connection with like, don't you feel everybody should be housed? Everybody's we're deserving of a house and it's not necessarily the fault of people that are seeking safety. So why are we directing the tension there? So if you can find this area of a wider we that can allow people to. a bit more. So rather than imposing my ideas or imposing anything I just usually have to take a take a breath look within myself and then turn on the curiosity hat. Danielle Townsend: And I think it's I have a bit of a funny relationship with the word belief because people die on a hill for a belief, you know, where I'd rather people think of think of of an opinion to something and form an opinion about something because an opinion can be changed. But people sometimes won't change a belief because it's just the way they've always thought. And it can be quite quite a dangerous, I suppose, dangerous thing. But I love your. the way you're kind of nearly getting them to unpick their own argument by continually asking questions. think that's that's really a really great way of kind of just putting it back to someone else and kind of letting them open their own mind almost and just providing the little push through the door. Very sneaky, but very good. I really like that. Yeah. Mamobo: necessary. And beliefs change. It's very hard to change somebody's beliefs, somebody's values. That's why it's easier to do a lot of policy work than actually behavioral work, because behavioral change takes years to actually do and to implement and behavioral change leads to cultural change. That's very difficult to do over time. But it's that ⁓ we call in diversity and inclusion work, it's called nudging. So it's that continuous nudging and continuous asking of the question. having people to question themselves, having people to question their beliefs and things like that, that will support people in opening up their minds and support people in gaining more empathy. So it's very hard to, let's say, change a belief system. Extremely difficult to change. it's not asking people to change their belief system a lot of times because it's fundamentally linked to their identities and fundamentally linked to certain parts of their identity, like religion, culture and things like that. but it's asking people to create a space of dialogue if they're of the belief, especially that every human is worthy of human dignity and respect. So to create that sense of dialogue and that base grounding. Danielle Townsend: And so five years on now from where you started with Grim in COVID, five, six years on, is the work that you're doing, are you starting to see the fruits of your labor, so to speak? Are you seeing the dial moving at all in terms of all of the different avenues that you've addressed there in the last conversation? Mamobo: Yeah, well, so I suppose it depends on how we actually do the work. ⁓ On a grassroots community level, it's much more harder to see the dial changing because it's individualized on a structural level, let's say, because we do a lot of work with individuals. ⁓ I do see the dial changing when it comes to the individual experiences and people's careers that we work with in terms of getting into work placements, supporting their projects, then moving on in their careers. That's great to see. on a wider structural layer and that's sort of the impact measurement specifically, it takes a lot of time to move that dial forward. And we're just one piece of a massive puzzle when it comes to cultural change. On an organizational level, the dial is changing actually, and it's great to actually see. So last year we launched our corporate program, for example, and that corporate program was piloted with PTSD and EY. And from that, we've seen sort of massive internal changes in terms of intercultural practice, people's ⁓ mind opening up regarding certain issues and people's engagement related to ⁓ intercultural ⁓ education as well. And specifically, even when it comes to senior leadership as well and how they start to, because they're the ones that set out the culture of organizations, how they start to intervene in workplace practices as it relates to race equity and cross-cultural relations. So it's great to see the fruit of that work being put in because let's say organizations are like microcosms of society. So it's kind of easier to move the dial forward faster on those levels. But on a wider societal level, we still have, we're still a baby when it comes to being an organization. So still have a lot of work to do. Danielle Townsend: And I suppose just to wrap up then, like rough draft is all about the kind of the work that's never finished and the kind of the thing that is maybe unresolved. What keeps coming up? Do you think what one thing keeps coming up that you're like, we're just we really need to tackle this. This is next or this is the thing that we really need to look at more critically. Is there any one thing that really kind of keeps you awake at night as such? Mamobo: Yeah, no, for me, it's about really trying to embed on a societal level, embed intercultural practice for the next generation. That's gonna be something that's like nudging me to work on. ⁓ The difficult part is getting the resourcing for all of that specifically. So if anybody wants to support GERM and our work, shout out, talk to me. But... ⁓ It's about getting the intercultural education for the next generation. This year we're piloting some intercultural storytelling and dialogue pieces for schools, but it's to equip people that actually can touch the lives of ⁓ the next generation, touch the lives of their communities to embed these practices on a day to day so people can start to even question this information online, can start to have dialogue with their family members. can start to connect with their new communities within their society as well. So something that's really irking me and especially because we're actually working on some local migrants on a consultancy side of things, migrant integration strategies and social cohesion strategies. That's something that's really irking me of like, how can we actually do this intercultural practice wider on a community level, on a societal level for this generation and the next? And how do we get on a structural level, the resourcing to do all of that because that requires manpower, it requires volunteers, it requires trained experts. yeah, it's something that over the next three to five years, I really want to double down on how do we create that structural change regarding this area on a community-based level. have a lot of learnings from our microcosms, our businesses that we work with, the organizations. but wider on a community level and sort of societal level. I really want to look deeper into that. Danielle Townsend: Yeah, definitely. if anyone is out there listening, support this work because it's so important and it's such an exciting time to be part of that as well. I think we'll have to leave it there for today. ⁓ Was it Awasabi? You know it all? You're certainly not a know it all. Mamobo: Over Sabi. Over Sabi. Over Sabi, yes. Danielle Townsend: You're certainly not a know-it-all. You're certainly someone that I would talk to for hours and hours. But thank you so, so much for making time to speak to us today. It has been a wonderful starting point to a conversation that I'm sure you'd like to probably continue on and pick up some of the tangents of it. But thanks so much for being on the pod. Mamobo: Thank you so much, Danielle.