Latest / The Adults In The AI Room / Earley AI Podcast Episode 55 - Staying Secure in a Digital Age: Yuri Dvoinos Discusses Data Privacy

Transcript

Earley AI Podcast Episode 55 - Staying Secure in a Digital Age: Yuri Dvoinos Discusses Data Privacy · The Adults In The AI Room

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Seth Early, and welcome to the Early AI Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Chris Featherstone.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: And today we're really excited to introduce our guest to discuss AI and security and how to deal with scams, how to deal with fraud, but also data privacy, which is so, so important and seems so out of control these days.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: And the role of AI.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: We will talk about the development of risk-scoring systems for scam messages and talk about scam approaches in general and scam strategies.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's seasonal variations to scams, the role of AI in detecting scams and preventing them, and the importance of data, personal data privacy and methods to safeguard it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Our guest today is a visionary in the field of cybersecurity and risk assessment with an impressive background that includes developing a pioneering risk-coring system for scam messages with a focus on visualizing risk levels.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Having previously launched digital products, he now serves as chief innovation officer at Aura, the cybersecurity company in Boston, currently based in Dubai.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yuri Voinos, welcome to the show.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: Did I get your name right?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: You did, and thank you for having me.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: Silent D.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's spelled with the D, but uh you don't have to say anything about the D.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: And you are originally from uh Ukraine, correct?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: I am Ukrainian, yes.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: I was raised and born there.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: I've been living in Dubai for the last 10 years.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh, I moved to there a long time ago, and somehow I'm still here.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: But so, so uh we'll get a little bit more into your background um uh in a little bit, but what I'd like to do is talk about what are the what are the things that people are not understanding about the role of AI in both data privacy and in in scams and and trying to prevent uh fraudulent behaviors.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we know they're they're getting so sophisticated, but what are the things that people don't quite understand?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: What are the misconceptions that you come across?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: What do people not understand or appreciate?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: That is a really great question.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_04: I think that there are there are many misconceptions, and I think um one of the interesting ones which uh I frequently answer as a question is will AI be um dangerous to us as the whole as human species and so on and so forth?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I think this uh broader misconception is that uh we we I believe that AI is a technology, and like any other technology is a tool and can be used to serve many different purposes.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: So, what people don't understand is how we use this technology, is what's gonna shape the influence of that and the outcome.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_04: And another thing that I think not everyone realizes is that AI has indeed been used for many malicious purposes, specifically for making scams a bit more efficient.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_04: And that is something that we're trying to tackle right now.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, we are using AI for the greater good purposes.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I guess every similar with uh electricity or internet, AI is being uh widely adopted by everyone, and it influences our lives, and we probably don't really track that, but it does have it is happening.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and I think one of the things that we talked about in our prep call was that um there's this kind of belief in a way that the horse is already out of the gate when it comes to data privacy.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things you were talking about is some of the work you've done at Aura and uh with OEMs of uh uh machines to protect data, uh, to do things like masking.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: But but is the is the horse out of the barn already?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: I get I get so many notices that my the data's been breached that this data source has been breached.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: I try to I do try to have different passwords for every single site that that's important for some of the trivial ones.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't really can't really care, you know, someone gonna hack my you know, cast magic account.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: But but uh but tell me more about your thinking around data privacy and what we have to do now and and how we have to take precautions now, especially younger people, obviously, right?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think the the threat is very much real, and you know, we hear about data breaches uh very regularly.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: They're obviously they're not going away, which is why I have started my uh last startup, which was acquired by Aura called FigLif, which was uh one app for total privacy.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: As uh I realized back it was eight years or seven years ago, I realized that we don't control our data, we don't own our data anymore.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: So uh once once you sign up as somewhere and once you give up your data, it's better, it's a little bit better right now, as you have some rights to request its deletion, but you're not gonna delete all your data from the internet.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: It's the reality is that you still have a very large footprint across the internet, and then whenever the next bridge happens, you don't have uh much of a choice.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: So we see people have stolen identities and uh the implication of uh you know lack of privacy and lack of privacy controls, and you might be uh losing your identity.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_04: So, what that means is that people can open credit under your name using a what we called forged identity.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_04: So if you if I know enough about your identity, I can pretend to be you.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes it's difficult to differentiate you know the bad actor from the, you know, from you.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: That is why the beauty of Aura, which is the company that has acquired my startup, is that we're tackling the problem downstream and upstream.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: So we're trying to prevent the lack of privacy, we're trying to prevent the identity, um, the everything, everything that might lead you to losing your identity.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: But if that has happened to you, we're also have a stellar identity protection downstream.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_04: So we can help you if even if you are in that sort of situation.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: I I was just uh remembering that you're reminding me that I need to to turn on the data protection or the uh what is it, lock my credit file because I had to unlock it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: I I've been warned over and over because my data has been breached.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: Then I locked it, and then American Express would not approve something that I was trying to do.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then I have to decide to unlock it, and now I have to remember to lock it again.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you're reminding me right after the session.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, but this is a this is a very classy challenge.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: This is security against convenience.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: So typically it the more convenient it gets, the less security you have.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then the opposite is right, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: It is it's it's very universal, it's not just about cybersecurity.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you wanna if you don't want to have any locks uh within your house, like it is very easy to access your house for all your family members, but then you don't have, frankly, you don't have any security at all.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then if you start uh bringing fancy locks and maybe alarm systems, that becomes a little bit of a hustle to maintain them.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: But I think security is not a zero-to-one thing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's all about risk management.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I think with a reasonable approach, by being able to have uh access to good tools depending on assessing your risk profile, you can uh you can limit this risk and you can lower that so you are much better off.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can you let's double-click on that a minute, um, just in terms of the zero-to-one approach versus doing a risk scoring system?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want to, I think I don't know that people necessarily understand what that looks like and how to actually think about it from a rational perspective of how do I apply these techniques and methods to make sure that I am safe.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, what should be my uh risk profile as opposed to not?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of thing.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Can you double-click on that for a minute?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_04: 100%.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: And that is something that we also do as a part of our onboarding process that we actually allow people to understand what's their um uh, I would say private footprint or digital footprint within online.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_04: So, how much data is available on them, on their identities online?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: And that goes uh anywhere from data breaches to data brokers, which we also opt out our customers from, which is another big problem.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's people a lot data brokers are they collect a lot of personal information on everyone's and they profile it.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: So that's another thing that happened.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so all of those tools allow you to understand, and of course, you know if you had any incidents with your identity, and if you had, then it's very it's very obvious that you need to have identity protection.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: But even if you haven't had those incidents, then we still argue that you're much better off by uh protecting the your most used communication channels.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_04: And again, depending on which channels you're using, if you are a senior person who trusts the phone more, historically and traditionally, we see seniors are trusting phone conversations way more than they should have.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the level of phone scams have is absolutely peaking, it's on the rise.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: And we see a lot of financial damage, but we also see a lot of mental health damage.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: So once uh we we were interviewing people that in the unfortunate situation when someone's father, which was a very senior person, made a mistake and you know, believed that someone on the phone call was a customer support representative, which was a fraud, and then they ended up losing a substantial amount of money.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't the end of the world for that family, but the hit that after the father, after father has finally realized he made a mistake, uh, he he felt a lot of guilt.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, we realized that the mental uh toll is massive.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: People are uh recovering from those incidents difficult.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's very difficult to recover, let's say, for some of the folks.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: So again, you should be better off by protecting your phone conversations.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's easy.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: We have tools where we can give you much more information about how likely this phone call is genuine, how likely this is a scam.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: And and the opposite is true.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: If you are younger, you might be trusting Instagram messages much more than uh you you might you may uh should be.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: So you may want to check the links that you receive for the DMs, you may want to uh you may want to install uh an AI email copilot that will be checking every single email that you are uh receiving for gazillions of risk factors, which in our in our modern world, zero chance we will be able to scan uh every single email for 555 criteria.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's just not gonna happen.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: So it is this fast pace of life.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: We're always in a hurry, we're always on the go, we're doing something, we're focused on something that scammers are also abusing to some extent.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: And being mindful of that, being mindful of our imperfections, of our disposition to trust and uh the risk being out there is a good starting point for that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: I always recommend people to consider.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_04: And then which tools do you want to use?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: How do you want to use those tools?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: This comes second, but I think understanding your risk profile, understanding and recognizing that those things happen and you should be mindful about that.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_04: This is the foundation of how you want to, you know, ensure safety of your family.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's um there's so much.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I had a gentleman that uh tried to hack my Facebook account, and um he said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna basically take over your account, give me a thousand dollars or you know what else.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, You mean this?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I deleted it.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And once because I, you know, like I don't keep, you know, like to your point, my comfort level is not in my social media, my comfort level is is more in my financial institutions and the things that I've built up over time, you know, because of where I sit in my demographic.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I did it, then I I I you know was texting him and I just said, Hey, I want to understand what you're doing and why.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Come on, you don't really want to understand this.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, I want to understand what your motivation is.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And most of it was his it was his job.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't I don't think that people get the fact that the people that are actually doing this, they're being employed by other groups to go after you know these accounts, and then you know, of course, portraying themselves as as others and and the things like that.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was really interesting to kind of get his take on what was happening, and then he tried to hold he tried to come back and say, No, I need a thousand dollars for this.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, sorry, buddy, this stuff's you know deleted.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not your profile candidate.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: That is very much true.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh people who are doing that, they are part of the organized crime, but um, and maybe some of them were forced or there were a fortune in a situation in their circumstances in their life that they you know somehow got into that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_04: But um I've seen something similar with the pick butchery scam, uh, that's that's they are quite common these days.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: And the the nature of the scam is that someone uh very commonly a female profile, which reach which would reach out to middle-aged or senior-aged men, and they would very quickly try to jump into a romantic relationship and mix that with an opportunity to invest and make insane returns.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: And then as you invest in a non-existent platform, which looks legit, uh, the platform shows you that you just made huge return and you basically are getting rich.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: So they lure you into investing more and more, but essentially you've you just lost all of that because you will never be able to take those money out.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's sad.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're targeting the our older demographics for a lot of this too, and just taking them for everything they're worth.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've had no less than at least directly five or six people that I know that their parents are single, um, lonely, and older, and then their life savings are gone because of the these types of oh, the promise of of, like you said, just the mental side of it, not even the the financial side.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, but taking them for everything.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: What's in what's interesting about AI?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: So, what people don't understand that a lot of times those chats they wouldn't be chatting with a real actual person.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of times this would be a bot or a script or a large language model that would be programmed in order to chat, and it's very interesting how progressed AI has become, as you wouldn't notice the difference, and also you can fine-tune the AI model to be uh to change to to use different sentiments, maybe to mimic some other uh conversation.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: So another thing that's happening if someone's Instagram account was hacked, what uh what might happen as uh an LLM would chat with every single contact, which are potential victims, but they would change the narrative, they would change the tone, they would change the way.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: So it is very difficult to differentiate, like because if you're chatting with your mom and she's using some specific words or language, LLM would pick it up and it would mimic that language.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: So now you would almost be certain that you're chatting with your ma'am, mom.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_04: So that that that is something that where AI is really making things more difficult.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of uh yeah, doing a branded voice type of scenario, um looking at it from the perspective.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean go ahead.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Seth, go ahead.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: What's up?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you can hear me now.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, because I I lost my internet and I had to start on and come back by my phone, so I missed what you guys were saying.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a lot of uh a lot of interesting things.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it sounded like you were you were starting to talk about the deep fakes.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: The fact that um uh you know we uh we we have so much uh uh in the pink book coaching, which uh I get those texts all the time.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I start off by saying how's the scanning business going, you know.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I usually get uh don't get any messages after that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but talk a little bit about you know how this is done at the device level, because where where do you do that interception?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you do that um intervention?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought you know, it's just in terms of like with all of the the fake jobs, oh fake jobs and stuff that that can go on, like to your point, you know, how do you actually dive into that and combat it and things like you know, things of that nature?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So right.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And where where do you where do you uh deal with the problem?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that we talked about in the prep call is the fact that when you go onto websites and this is a privacy, I know we're switching back and forth between security and privacy, but they're so intertwined.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've I've been on uh sites where the granularity is incredibly detailed, like they will ask you to opt out of, they'll say, Well, here are our partners.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: And rather than being able to opt out of your partners and your third party and selling my data, you have to go in and and and select each one.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: And there's like hundreds, you know, and it's like, are you kidding me?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: Or they'll they'll just say, you know, accept our cookies or don't.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if you don't, you know, go away.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, so so the there's so much frustration on how organizations are doing it, you really don't have much choice.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, where do you where do you protect that?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know I've had situations where I've had private accounts that didn't have my my first and last name on it, it was just a username, and then all of a sudden, you know, uh over a period of time, I start getting things addressed to my name associated with that account where I never associated my name with that account, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: So somebody did that integration and correlation where I never gave any permission, right?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Because that would have that was a completely private account, not with my name.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do you start addressing those kinds of things and and uh all of the issues with the data brokers and data uh sales that there there is a lot of activity happening, and your data is definitely being profiled and being sold.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and of course, we don't necessarily um read all uh terms uh and agreements uh for whenever we sign up.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_04: And nor that, you know, uh nor that it's possible because sometimes they make it so lengthy and so complicated and sophisticated language that it's really difficult to understand what's happening there, which is another problem, by the way.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_04: But uh there are multiple ways for you to be essentially a bit more private.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: I would I would briefly mention several advices that I tend to give uh folks whenever they ask me this question.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: So uh first is all ultimate privacy.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: So this is how uh this was the uh main theme of the of my startup, figlift.com, where we were envisioning masking saving the internet.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: And what I mean by that is we came up with this idea that if you sign up with a masked email, which is essentially a unique email that you know people it you you don't use anywhere but but this website, then it's very difficult to understand who are you because this email is very is unique to that uh website.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: You can't even if it was breached, the website was breached.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: They can't use this email and uh and apply it to other uh websites because it is unique.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_04: However, that is something that uh I believe Apple is also doing with an option of hide my email.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh had this before Apple has released this, which I'm very proud of.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: But even with Apple making it very simple, I think a lot of people struggle to adopt this technology and this ultimate privacy.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: It is the ultimate privacy, but it is very difficult because it's less convenient.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: So there are other ways that you can do to be a little bit more private online.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: One, of course, you can use 2FA, which is two-factor authentication for every single important website where you believe you have important data, maybe document data or financial data.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_04: We recommend to use two-factor authentication, whether this is a special authenticator app or through an SMS.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: That's one thing.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: The other thing is that whenever you're in public uh Wi-Fi, we do recommend to use uh VPN so everything you do online is encrypted because essentially there are instances where there is middle-in-demand attack and the Wi-Fi can be listening to everything you type, everything you do, and this is how you might lose some of your private data as well.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: But then if you sign up for, and this is just free advice, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: So most of them are free, except for the VPN, which I also recommend to you know select from a from a reputable company.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_04: But if you sign up for services like Aura, what we can also do for you in in um, in addition to just a standard VPN, we can also delete your data from data brokers.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of people don't know they exist and they they profile your data and then they sell it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: So what we are doing, we're automating deletion requests on your behalf for most of the largest data brokers out there.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: So you don't have to do anything once you have subscribed for the service.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: It just happens automatically.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_04: And this is also an ongoing process.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: And this is how we systematically work to get your digital footprint under control and contain the exposure of your private data.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's definitely something uh that's necessary.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now we need Think and and I'll I personally will look into that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know didn't realize you had consumer products.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: I thought you just did the OEM, but that's great.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I'll check that out.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: And um one of the things that um I was curious about is that you know, as you mentioned, Apple and American Express offer masking.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: So you can use a virtual card with American Express MasterCard.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you can do masking.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and I I haven't used masking because I I'm not sure how that uh I'm not sure the level of inconvenience that that that adds.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I'm like, well, I just want to log in with my my regular email address, so I don't want to have to remember.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that if that happens automatically, but I haven't checked into that.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: But so if you mask your email, do you have to now use that that uh virtual email or that's automatic, it's all automatic that happens behind the scenes?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_04: It is automatic, it does happen uh behind the scenes.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: The inconvenience that you have with that setup is that you have to remember for which website you decided to hide your email, and instead of again with your regular one, you need to realize oh, I I need to use this weird hide my email thing.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I forget which one I sign in with Apple versus uh my regular email address, and and that can be confusing.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, where it gets you is if you had like I had a uh fraudulent charge that I thought was fraudulent, and when I called the merchant, they were they were using a different card number.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea what the card number was.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, of course that's fraud.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my card number.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Had I known that it was actually a masked number from my original number, right, to actually do that charge.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: So in this chasing my tail in a loop, trying to figure out what the data was.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that uh yeah, that's a that's a really good point.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's it does add complexity, as you say, there's a trade-off between convenience and security.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the questions I have is um how is your how is your algorithm?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: So most of the uh email providers have spam filters and will mark things as, you know, Microsoft Office 365 will mark things as spam or phishing or whatever.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: How is your algorithm different and how is it complementary to those things?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think the most interesting algorithm that we have come up with, uh which is also in which also includes AI, uh, getting back to the uh topic starter, is that we believe that rather than we believe that we need to balance the security and convenience rather than getting completely off the grid, which we find is uh appropriate for several some circumstances where you know the website is shady, you you you you don't even want to sign up with your uh actual email and stuff like that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: We believe that the the balanced approach is where when we check most of the income and communication and we check all of the messages that are being sent to you over the social media, over the SMS, the email, and the phone calls.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: And that approach allows you to maybe your data was exposed, maybe you will be exposed to a little bit of more communication.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_04: But what we can offer is we can offer almost an augmented reality that you will be looking at every single incoming email, let's say, and AI have already scanned that email, and AI will tell you okay, so the risk score for this communication is X.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: And now you're way more empowered and informed about the risk that's happening around you.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then the beauty of that, you don't necessarily have to change any behavior, anything that you're used to, you're you're pretty much it's business as usual for most of uh most of us, but then you are using a lot of powerful technology to stay on high alert.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, even if you sometimes people don't realize that they're being pressured psychologically or there is a sense of urgency, someone is applying.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: And since they don't realize they're chatting with someone else who is pretending to be someone you trust, they they do, they may fight that and make decisions that they're gonna regret about.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_04: The good thing about AI, it's not gonna happen with AI.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_04: Immediately, AI will pick this up and will immediately tell you that you have to stay on high alert.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes all it takes is someone to tell you that something is shady right here, right now, which I think is a really cool balance because we're not fully addressing that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: We're just raising awareness, but is because it happens in the real time, it's very, very handy.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: And you don't, again, you don't have to change your behavior.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I think this approach is way more balanced, and we're really big believers into that.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that we talked about was that these things are getting increasingly creative, and it is it is a uh an arms race.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, I get a lot of emails from allegedly, you know, our employees asking to change account numbers, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: To change their direct deposit.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, the preferred scamming bank is green dot bank.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Anything from green, anything in green dot is problematic.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: I also had a fraudulent sales, uh, a fraudulent store opened in the blanking on the name of the uh the tool, uh salsify, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh salsify?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Salsify, yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Which uh which then uh ended up depositing a five thousand dollar check into a green dot account, which I got a debit card in the mail, and I got an email saying there's money in your account.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I never applied for this.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, what's this five thousand dollars doing in here?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right, and I didn't understand how they were gonna deal with this, but I I reached out, it was a QuickBooks uh uh credit uh debit card.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: So they must have gotten all the information to be able to open this stuff, and then um I still got I still had uh problems.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: There were multiple stores that were opened, and I had to return this money and I had to say, look, and then I just got a check the other day uh in the mail for like some refund of 50 bucks.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: And like, what is that going on here?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm this is still not resolved, even though the bank said my my social security number was flagged, um, the uh the software company, the eStore said my number was flagged.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now this isn't my company name.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, again, very, very sophisticated, interesting things, but I don't understand their end game when they're depositing this money.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: But talk a little bit about you know where you see this going, and especially when you you started to talk about deep fakes, you know, where where, you know, how what do you envision down the road?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, are we going to be able to keep up with this constant battle?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously we have to, but it just seems like it's getting more and more challenging every day.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not necessarily something that I did to uh cause this fraud where I was scammed.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: There were this was uh identity theft and and scamming other uh entities.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: So kind of where where do you see this going when when things get so sophisticated?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, sad.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel sorry for you being a victim of the identity uh fraud.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean for there's no financial implications for me yet, but I'm filing police reports and I'm dealing, it's causing a lot of time, you know.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, but carry on.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: It it yeah, it at the bare minimum, it's tremendous long-term inconvenience, which is probably the the most optimistic outcome, if uh in in your case.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I think your story, just in and of itself, is the reason why or exists and why we we're here.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and as we as as we see identity scam, it's really someone pretending to be you, just in front of the bank, so they can issue credit under your name.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: But the same uh dynamics is also happening uh in other instances.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: So, for example, uh a very common corporate scam, which is now we see tend to roll out into the consumer world as well.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: As I suspect with AI, it's getting uh more cost-effective, if you will.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: When people are pretending to be a legitimate company and they send you fake invoices.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_04: So if someone was listening to your email correspondence with someone, they would know when you expect potentially an invoice.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_04: And what they can do, they can send you an email from a company that you know, an address that looks exactly similar, uh, from the same person, which again uses the same style, text in style.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: So it's very difficult for you to recognize this as being a scam.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: Well, this being primitive, it is efficient.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: We we see that people are it it works, people are trusting those emails, but with AI is progressing so fast, not only do we see this with text, but we also see this with audio.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: And when I what I mean by that is that it is easy right now to create a voice synthesizer that would mimic your voice or someone else's voice.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_04: And you don't even it used to be where they would need a sample of how you half an hour or 15 minutes talking to that, and that would be still, you know, okay, somewhat similar.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: Now they can start mimicking your voice with a much smaller sample, almost like a 10 to 30 seconds sample.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_04: And the voice synthesizers are you know much better.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, if you think uh for a minute that you got a phone call and imagine that the caller ID was spoofed, so now all of a sudden uh it says that Chris is calling you, and someone with a voice that is very similar to Chris's voice asks you to open a link he has sent you to the email and it's urgent.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_04: And just to make sure that you will not pick up on those imperfections of the voice and uh synthesizer, what they would do, they would add background noise.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: They can add like a street noise or traffic sounds, they can add something.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_04: So now you would maybe you would register those imperfections, but you would think, is this is this me or is this just the background noise?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_04: So I you know I can't hear you really well, but it it seems like Chris.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_04: Sounds like Chris.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, all of a sudden you're open and efficient link.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: So that is a very classic attack.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_04: There is another angle that can be used, and of course, this angle can be used um over WhatsApp audio messages and across the world and across other channels as well.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: And the ultimate, ultimate um uh danger, those scams and deep fakes is the video deep fakes.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: We got we got to the point where you can reproduce the voice and then you can do with with the right actor, you can do a mask that will make this person look incredibly similar to the person you're trying to mimic.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: So imagine someone again with a um sends you a link.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, this, hey, this is uh let's say this is again for the sake of the example, this is Chris, and Chris is the CEO of the company.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: This is Chris, uh, we're in the mid in the middle of an urgent uh meeting.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_04: We need your help right now.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: Jump on the Zoom link.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: You're jumping on the Zoom link and you're seeing someone who looks like Chris, talks like Chris, tell us instructing you to do something that will, you know, frankly, not benefit the entire company.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_04: All it takes is to compromise security for one employee or maybe one of you know a group of important employees, and your entire security posture is compromised.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_04: So that is that is the ultimate problem that we're facing with deep fakes.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's pretty, it's pretty scary, and it's pretty unbelievable.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you, I had one call once for allegedly from Citizens Bank uh fraud department, and the guy said, you know, I'm with and and his tone was pitch perfect, right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like he had worked in a fraud department, but he he sounded he was very low-key, very relaxed, very official sounding.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, I'm calling from, you know, check the back of your card.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm calling from an official number, that number cannot be spoofed, right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a lie right there, right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: But he said that, and I looked, I looked at the back of the card, it looked like the right thing.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: Then he started asking me questions.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, wait a minute, no, you're not supposed to ask me that question.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: He goes, Okay, no, don't worry about it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'll you know, let me try something else.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Turned out he was on the phone with Citizens Bank at the same time, trying to break into my account, trying to impersonate me, and then he was asking certain questions, and then it it was so incredibly sophisticated.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I remember writing it out for citizens to say, because they finally did get something, he did he did get me to do something that I quickly realized was was not correct, and I immediately called them and they did you know fix it, but it was unbelievable.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like they they told me he was on the phone with them while I he was on the phone with me, and he was talking to them, giving them answers that he was trying to get from me.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then when he asked certain questions, I said, No, you're not supposed to answer.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not supposed you're not supposed to ask that question, and that's when it made me very suspicious.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: But it was very sophisticated, it was very interesting, and I'm on the alert for that sort of stuff.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: But don't you think, Yuri, that for every great thing that comes out in technology, there's also a nefarious act using that same technology, and people don't keep that in mind, yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: I I I I do think so.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: I yeah, I do share that sentiment, although I think it's not just for the internet, let's more universally.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_04: Whatever we do, somehow we use it for the greater good, and we also figure out being very creative to completely mismanage whatever we have created.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_04: But but the phone call, the trick, a very common trick is the that tricks a lot of people is the spoofing, the phone number spoofing.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_04: So here uh for for Aura customers, for example, at a certain plan, for family plan or the suite, we do offer a service called call protection.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: And what it will do, it will route all unknown calls, which are calls from uh the from not from your context.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_04: It will route to Aura, and then we will understand the risk profile for that specific phone number, and we will always rewrite the C name.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_04: And the C name is the parameter that is the that shows up instead of the uh phone number.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: And that is what people don't understand that uh instead of the phone number, um, the convenience uh of the technology allows us to show something uh which is called the C name or the caller ID, but that that can be another phone number, that can be your phone number, that can be nothing so crazy.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's like how can that system be so open to to to uh to to to that type of uh lack of security?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it it's just mind-boggling.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when they came up with integrated services digital network, when the first reiteration uh or or redesign or revamping of the phone system back from the analog days to the digital days, right?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: To to leave those gaping security holes is just unbelievable.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like that it's mind-boggling, but people don't know how uh common is that still.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's getting better, but it's still extremely common.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: So somehow people are finding uh loopholes in the system to continue to abuse the C name.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_04: But for anyone who uses oracle protection, that will never happen because we never allow custom C names.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: We would always rewrite this either to the original number or to the C name that we can verify.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and and just as people know that in this podcast, we don't typically like pitch products, but I think this is really a product people should be aware of and and take advantage of because right.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, so you know, this is uh, you know, it's not a sales pitch, it's just uh information and education because stuff is certainly stuff I need.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: People don't know where to go get stuff either.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they they you know, part problems are if they go out and they just do general searches and stuff, they're very expensive, and or don't know, like you're saying, phone masking.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they were they're a scam themselves, yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, imagine that you know, look at the companies that are advertising themselves as security companies that are scammers and or causing problems, yeah.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_04: And scams, scams today are so universal that you know, if you're a senior person, they have the phone call scam.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: If you're a younger person, they have the Instagram scams.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: There are so many different scams.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, another interesting thing that we're seeing is scams towards um minors.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_04: So we see and uh suspect minors force.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_04: So the nature of the scam uh you said you're seeing minors for kids.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, kids, okay.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, we what we what we are seeing is that a lot of automated accounts that pretend to be female accounts, they would target younger boys and they would trick them into sending their um intimate photos or videos.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: That of course is a scam.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of times, a lot of times they would blackmail those boys.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_04: And we have those very unfortunate incidents out of Canada in British Columbia where this was way too much and one uh child wasn't able to cope with that.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and British Columbia, they even come up with this ridiculously provocative uh public campaign to raise awareness about that because those scams are very common.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: But um, it's it's the large language model that tricks people behind the scenes.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and more than one child has has ended their lives.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they they have and then and then the the the the scammer communicated to the what the child's you know sister or somebody else relative close to them that they'll ruin their reputation.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they just there's just they're so heartless and so sociopathic in what they're doing, you know, and and it's just it's mind-boggling.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the lack of humanity and and and and the damage that's doing and the psychological damage, but even the things you talked about, like the deep fakes of of kids in in middle school, even though people know it's fake, it is devastatingly trauma traumatic to them.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: It is horrendous.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I agree the psychological toll is just mind-boggling.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's just another example that similarly we talked about the mental toll for seniors for the phone scam.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_04: It's the same thing that happens to minors, just you know, a different scam, different package.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: But to be honest with you, you have uh I feel incredibly grateful and incredibly lucky of being able to drive some of those technology to fight against that.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_04: I uh I lost a very close friend of mine, uh, and I know how it feels.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: And uh we are building something that I truly believe is for the greater good and can that can make a difference.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_04: And every single day I come to work, work restless and so hard to come up with those things that people will pick up that to to ensure that our company can, and not just our company, but just overall the society, we can be a little bit more aware.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I love doing podcasts, I love talk talking about these things because I I'm so surprised and shocked to some extent that people still don't understand the level of risks around them and what's happening, what's possible, and some very basic foundational protection.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um what's refreshing, Yuri, is that in this insecurity and in you know all of this stuff that you're dealing with, you're very optimistic, which is actually refreshing.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh it could be like doomsday for a lot of folks just to think about you know how to combat it and be pessimistic, but you're very optimistic, so it's refreshing.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, we're not gonna we're not gonna let it happen.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna that's that's the whole thing.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's where your your your energy and your your your values and you know it and it's it is great, you know, to see and it it's great to hear uh about the things that can be done.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we were talking about it was another topic.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um I can while while while we're while we're thinking where do we steer the conversation, I can give one free practical advice, which does subscribe into any fancy service or any cybersecurity product per se, it's free.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_04: We all can do that.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I love sharing this advice because a lot of people would come back to me and say a thank you.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like you really rescued me from being part of the scam, which I somehow got into that.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_04: So whenever you receive a risky communication, and when I say risky communication, it's really a suspicious link or a financial transaction of sorts, even including from your close friends and specifically from your close friends, verify that using another channel of communication.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_04: So, for example, if you have received an Instagram message from your best friend saying, Hey dude, I need your help.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_04: Can you send me, I don't know, uh something on Venmo, X X dollars on uh through Venmo, pick up the phone, call the guy and say, Hey, I just wanted to double check if you're Right.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: If you have received an email, send them a WhatsApp message.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's very difficult to compromise several communication channels at a time, and that is free.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_04: And some and some people keep communicating over that compromise channel just to reinforce their bias.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_04: But in reality, what you should have done, you should have just picked up the phone and verified.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like another channel.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's maybe compromised this channel.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: What you're doing is you're double checking or verifying or validating via another channel, which is exactly the uh now that's wonderful advice.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I know parents get calls late at night from their kids, you know, in jail and all of that stuff.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it's you know, there's got to be another way to validate.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, give me the phone number of the g what station are you at, right?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: Let me call, etc.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: But um, but it is, you know, it is interesting.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like you say, it's it is an arms race, and you know, the the deep fakes.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think the other thing that we talked about a little bit is you know, the use of deep fakes on social media to to move ideological um ideas forward and to kind of present things, and how you say that you know, people can no longer just believe what they see, they have to think critically.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the issues around that is that the things that are emotionally, the things that get the most attention, the algorithms are optimized for attention and they're optimized for engagement.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: And engagement happens not through things that are factually correct necessarily, but things that are emotionally escalating or emotionally uh um you know triggering, right?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: So the things and the things that are emotionally triggering many times are are false.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: They're just not true.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: And yet those are the things that get so it's one of those things where you know reading something before you forward it, right?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or reading something before you share it, or researching, or not taking things that face value.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we do need as a society to become better critical thinkers when we are seeing this stuff and ask if you know there's a nefarious motive behind this or what the motive of the sender is, right?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: Rather than just kind of blindly taking things and saying, wow, this is an incredible video, this is awful.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it could be a it could be a deep fake, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: It could be false.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, the the this is probably the obstacle that's is the most painful, as it's uh it will require us to rewire ourselves for at least a little bit.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think I guess we're witnessing that the world is changing, the informational space is changing, and we are one step from uh not being able to trust what we see, which is the first time.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_04: If you think about that, it's the first time throughout human history that we're facing such a problem.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's always been the opposite.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: If you have seen something, then it has happened.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: I can believe it.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, when you see a Hollywood movie, you know it's a movie, right?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_04: So you don't you don't really uh apply that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_04: But if you see someone in the news or if you see a video of something's happening, then you it most certainly has happened.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's not gonna be the case anymore.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: And it's in uh and unfortunately, the implication is that one, it can be misinformation, so people might be able to spread some goofy conspiracy theories like the world is flat and so on and so forth, which some people take it with a with a pinch of you know humor and you know it's not flat.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right, right.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_04: But unfortunately, the disinformation is a much, a much more alarming threat because now once you know people have discovered that they have this instrument of manipulating our opinion by creating a deep fake, then of course we can face things that haven't happened, uh news that aren't uh true.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, the fact check, the fact check is gonna be critical for us to move forward and be realistic.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Yuri, this has been so much fun.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: I really enjoyed chatting.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: I do want to ask you, what do you do for fun?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know you just got back from vacation.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know you have a son.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh tell me tell me a little bit about what you do uh in your your personal life.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_04: I tend to joke that I used to have many hobbies before I got two kids.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh all I all I do is just I spend some time with my kids.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_04: But do they know?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_04: How old are they now?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_04: They are two and four.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_04: So my oldest uh is four-year-old.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_04: She's yes.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: Great ages, man.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: Boy and a girl?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, boy and a girl.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_04: Youngest is a boy, so we're we're blessed with those uh couple.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_04: They're also great characters, but we do uh we do spend a whole lot of time together.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_04: Me and my wife who love hiking.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: We we were hiking in Austria this summer, which was yeah, uh very refreshing.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_04: Typically, I like to do stuff that uh help me to disconnect with an element of the digital detox.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's a lot of screens for a good reason.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_04: I work in in the digital um economy, but sailing where you can't really have a screen, you always need to run across the boat, hiking where you don't have the signal, those are perfect for me.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's great, that's wonderful.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, listen, this has been so much uh so enjoyable.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: You the company, your uh LinkedIn is D V O I N O S.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: D V O I N O S.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: So on LinkedIn, that's where people can find you.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the company website is aura.com.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you also have a youth uh a Twitter handle, which is U-R-I-Y-N-O-S.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: And again, we're going to be putting all that in the show notes.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, I just want to thank you so much for your time and thank you for being with us today.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a lot of fun and very informative.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's been a pleasure.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_04: Great.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: So that's been our that's been our show for uh today.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for attending the Early AI podcast.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we'll see you next time.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: And again, thanks to our audience and and thank you, Yuri, and of course, thank you, Chris and Carolyn, for all the other work.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks, guys.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Yuri.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Bye now.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Visit early.com to find links to the full podcast on all audio platforms to listen on the go.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for watching.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Contact us today at infoearly.com.