Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Dads of Daughters: A Conversation with our Husbands! | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 4

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Dads of Daughters: A Conversation with our Husbands! | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 4 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_04: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_04: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: We've got it here for you.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: We bring to you our own personal experiences, moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for being here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Bring your friends.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: We've got you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: Come mother with us.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, Deb here.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: So we had the opportunity to interview our husbands, Howie Rubin, and Jamie Kripke today on the podcast.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: And they both showed up with so much vulnerability, wisdom, authenticity, and really deep insight about what it's like to raise adolescent girls.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like the beginning of a bigger conversation, but we really started to get into it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's just it.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: We want to invite other fathers to have these conversations, either with each other and or with their partners and with their kids, because this is actually where the magic of connection starts, to have that ability to get thoughts out of your head, move away from isolation, and open up into your heart.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was really fun to have them on the podcast.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I hope you enjoy it too.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a really wonderful reminder of how much our dads need support and care.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that leads me to reminding all of our listeners that I am doing a workshop on dads for dads and daughters, and those who identify as dad and those who identify as daughters.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's in person and virtual on February 8th at Boulder Country Day School.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: So check out my website at motherdaughterco.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, motherdaughterjourney.co, and hopefully you can sign up.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be a really, really wonderful two-hour educational session and an opportunity for dads to share and get some collective wisdom and feel part of something bigger than themselves.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Have a good day.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, it's Kate.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, every day or every other day, I am on Instagram posting little clips, little ideas, little strategies for your everyday maternal mental well-being.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: I used to actually really dislike social media and Instagram.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, as you know from our podcast, I still think that we need to be real careful with social media and our kids.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_04: That said, I am finding that the connections I'm making on Instagram through this feed where I am really offering moms out there a way to connect deeply with themselves, with their kids, and with their mental well-being to be really an amazing journey for me.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_04: So check it out.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sharing a bit about my mothering there, as well as really important things to think about when you're working towards that sustainable mental well-being at Kate Kripke.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'll see you there.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Deb.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Kate.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Podcast Day.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Happy Podcast Day.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Who do we have with us today, Deb?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: We have our amazing, brave, courageous, messy human husbands here today.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: You want to introduce yourself.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Kate's husband, Jamie.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Deb's husband, Howie.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: So before we launch into really what it's like to father daughters, because that's the heart of this podcast.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna give a quick little intro as to how we met.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: Love it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so Kate and I actually met because we worked in the same office.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Kate and Jamie had just moved here from San Francisco, and people kept telling us that we needed to meet each other.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: And we did, but we were both new moms.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: We were working, we had very little bandwidth for a lot of extra.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: So our relationship was sort of a slow roll at the beginning.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Wouldn't you agree?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: I would agree.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: We were we were friends before they were friends.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: We we were friendly, I would say.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then one day we went out to lunch.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: It was our first like date, just Kate and I, and we're sitting there talking, we're sharing a little bit about our personal lives, and we started talking about our husbands, and we were like, Oh, they need to meet.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: And we were like, this is a potential bromance.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so about two weeks later, we had a dinner together, and boom, there it was.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: And they fell in love, wouldn't you say?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Did you guys fall in love?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Over time.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Instantly.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think it was pretty instant.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it was a little bullfan.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: It was pretty instant from my seat.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and then, you know, all these years later, there's been tons of co-parenting, tons of friendships, um, highs, lows, everything in between, starting a business together.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: And like any family, there's family dynamics, and it's just been this really beautiful evolution of a relationship.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing that I love about both of you is watching you father, because I think you both do it with so much integrity and humility.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we want to learn about today.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want to add anything?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think I'll just reiterate something you already said, which is that, you know, the point of today, I think, is to continue to help normalize the things that come up for all of us, dads included.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: And just like we're saying we're really proud of these dads here sitting with us and that they do things really well, that they're not perfect either, because who is?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so this talk today with them is actually, I'm excited to learn a little bit about their experience.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: But also just to bring some of that messiness, the beauty, but also the messiness that occurs behind four walls to the table so that other people don't feel so alone.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing I'll add to that is there's a lot of attention on motherhood in our culture and support for moms.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so often the dads get lost in the shuffle.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's all really why we want to bring voice to what's happening for the dads.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: And this is gonna be a lopsided interview because we're they're only familiar with fathering daughters.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we'll just acknowledge that from the beginning.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: But we're gonna turn it over to you guys.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: And the start is to ask, we want to understand what is one thing you each love right now about fathering your daughters, and what's one thing that you're really struggling with?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: And why don't you both start with the loves and then we'll go into the struggles.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, first off, I want to say the first time that we met was at an Imago workshop.
• 6:59
  unknown: No, it wasn't.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was a love and logic.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Love and logic.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was just Imago.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was Imago.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Kidding.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: We did an Imago workshop, you and me.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Love and logic.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Strike that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: We added that out.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the thing I love right now about being a parent of two teenage daughters, almost teenage for us, maybe about a 14-year-old and 12-year-old, but we'll call it teenage, is just seeing them out in the world on their own and realizing like how much they are themselves and also just discovering and watching the friends they choose and activities they choose to do or not do, and just kind of fumbling on a lot of things.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's also really beautiful and hard sometimes too to watch, but they're just trying shit out.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really I'm remembering when I was that age, I'm finally starting to like slow down for a minute and be able to see it.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like I remember when I was a freshman in high school, and I think that didn't even occur to me until a couple months ago.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was just watching them as like my little girl or my seventh grader and forgetting like oh, I was in middle school and I was in high school, and feeling like I knew everything and I knew how to navigate around town, and I would show up at places and have no money and figure out not to know how I was getting home, and all those things are coming up for them, and like I love just seeing them out in the world and seeing who they're becoming.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to go love and then then we'll go not love after that?
• 8:33
  unknown: Sure.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Howie sort of took my answer, um, but I'll try to give my version of that answer.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's one of the things I love most is just kind of seeing who our daughters are becoming and seeing how these things we try to teach them over many years is sort of like showing up later in life, you know?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's funny you you brought up how we met because I think that love and logic workshop we did when all of our kids were very young was a big part of how they turned out because we were um we were pretty we were into it.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: We really liked the philosophy of kind of like teaching kids to be accountable, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And teaching them to be responsible for their own decisions and empowering them.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, that's hard to do.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to do in the beginning, but if you stick with it for a while, it gets easier.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as a dad of two girls, I sort of love watching them be in the world, but also like apply these things that we've taught them and see them actually work every once in a while.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um the other thing I love is like, and it's kind of wrapped into the same thing, is sort of just getting to know them and and you know, as they get older, they can have like deeper conversations with us, and we can we can just kind of there are more layers to everything, and so we learn more about who they are, and um that just gets better with time.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll stop there.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: You want to say something you don't like at all.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm gonna let Howie go because he's been thinking about it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Go off the cuff.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: Can I actually say something first?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um which is you know, it's so interesting.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_04: One of the reasons I love doing these podcasts is because you can know certain things about people or topics.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: And then when you hear people articulate that thing that you already know, it moves from your head to your heart, you know?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: And what you're saying, Jamie, doesn't surprise me.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know all of that, but I will say it's really nice to hear both of you say those things out loud and to sort of feel the emotion behind them because I know people can say certain things, but not walk that walk.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: Not actually engage from that place.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: You both do very much.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's just such a nice reminder for me, Deb, that we have these partners who are that curious about their daughters.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's why we love this podcast too, because it invites conversation.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: And to your point, when things are stuck in their in any of our heads, we're not having conversation around it to actually bring it into a different level of owning it.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, thank you.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I also love hearing what you had to say.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's so important as a practice to remember the things you love when things are hard.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so thank you for naming that.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: So struggles easy.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me the biggest struggle, and we've all talked about this, is just letting go.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the the piece that I love about them is watch them do everything on their own or attempt to do everything on their own and share with us at the same time.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the hardest part for me is letting go.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like, you know, it's a knife's edge.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't say it's a breakup, but there's definitely like an unconscious, unconscious sometimes of just creating space.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there's times when I feel like I've lost like my best play friends, and something that seems really trivial to me, like they're gonna go to around the corner to go get noodles with friends, over hanging out with me for three hours and doing some project in the backyard or going on a hike, like that's like kind of like a knife in the heart sometimes.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels big to me, and it's such a quick moment for them.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, just remembering that they're moments and that they'll have there's so many other opportunities, and I just I take it to heart, that's just where I'm at right now.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that changes in time, like the game slows down a little bit, and I could see it more.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know it in my head now, and you know, a year or two ago, it was just like rapid fire.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So just trying to breathe into that and remember that we all still come together on the dinner table, not every night, but most.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And there is morning time, and there's those little check-ins, and just taking every opportunity as a little gift.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's so hard, Howie.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_04: We talk about this so much in this podcast about the challenge of not taking things personally, you know, when our kids go through their own normal developmental ebbs and flows, and how, as parents in general, not just dads and not just moms, but parents in general, it's so easy to take that personally.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I the a question I was gonna ask you as you were talking is what does letting go mean to you?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what do you mean when you say that?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think in part, I'm hearing you say letting go of your attachment to them showing up with you a certain way.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: Is that part of it for you?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Completely.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And not taking it personal.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bit of letting go, and also just like letting them go into the universe.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like literally letting like we're gonna go do this.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're not involved, I don't know when I'll be back.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I might call you to be a pep for a pickup, just all the shit like in their daily routine or whatever routine looks like, and like I might not be a part of that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And sitting with that and being okay and knowing that I really am a part of it, even though I'm not there.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's interesting because I think, and I'd love to hear like Jamie talk about this too, because I know we've chatted about it.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we've so wanted that space, and they're little, you're like, oh my god, this is like everything I just want to get with my bros and go do X, Y, and Z.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and then you get the space, and it's just like you know, like I'm finding myself like constricted in like all the freedom that I have.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And Zeb has said to me, She's like, This is what you've like been waiting for, like, go do the thing or go do your nothing.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm like, there's been so much focus on the kids, and I also will say, like, I I can admit, I believe I've taken very good care of myself even from the time they were little.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I'm finding myself sometimes at like a loss of what to do with myself.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Before you before you go, I just want to speak to that because it's really it's just so clear what what this stage is and of it's grief, you know, even just listening.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: There's these five stages of grief.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's anger, denial, bargaining, depression, and eventually acceptance.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And when I when I listen and watch you, there's like this bargaining, like, you know, can you I'll do this if you do the, you know, kind of like bribing bargaining.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Then there's denial, like, but she's not growing, she's still little, like, or why isn't she care?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Why doesn't she care what I think anymore?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, kind of like that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then anger and depression speak for themselves.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then this piece of acceptance, when you say let go, I think it's this beautiful imagery of accepting that you haven't lost them, but you're giving them space to become their own people, knowing that they will come back.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: They like really will, because they have this attachment that's so deep in there that we worked so hard to create.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the more we can practice acceptance, I think for all of us, it is where when there's space and then they actually want us more.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: I would also use the word surrender, right?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's like you're we're you're you are, we all are surrendering to the normal process of differentiation, right?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: That word surrender for me has such a somatic experience to it.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like a deep sigh almost, and not surrendering, like giving up, but like this is where we are.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: So acceptance, surrender, same thing, but it's hard.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Jamie here.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I had I actually had two.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of them was along the lines of Howie's answer and something you elaborated on, which is grief.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's really hard, you know.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: As our you know, our daughters are now um 13 and 16.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: We had a 16th birthday yesterday.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I really think the last year or two has been uh as a parent just like watching them separate from us.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of hit this stage where I think, and Deb, please jump in.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think um their brains are like literally hardwired to do this, right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're it's not really a choice.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're just separating from us, and that's a hard thing to when you're the parent to watch that happen.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's also like a beautiful thing that you c sort of do have to surrender to, but I've I can say that I've been grieving for a couple years now as I've watched the girls kind of pull away.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I'll that I'll add in here to the mix is just as a as a father of two girls that presents some unique challenges too.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, I think it's it's not uncommon to feel kind of like the odd one out when you're the dad.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: We just had a uh a situation happen just yesterday where you know one of our daughters went to Kate with something that she confided in in Kate with, but she wasn't ready to share with me.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like, you know, I get it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the dad, you know, the the daughter-mother thing is different than the than the daughter-father thing, but like it's also kind of hard to not be a part of those conversations because it's easy to go to a place where you feel like your daughters don't trust you.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a that's a tricky one.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um at the same time, it has a there's a benefit to that too, because sometimes those are situations I don't really want to be a part of.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're unfit to navigate.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we just don't have the we don't have the the tools for that.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, I don't know.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's like two of them.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll just add, um, I don't know if there's any truth to this stat, but I've used it with with other friends and parents, um, where they say that like up until your kids are 18 years old, as a parent, you will have spent 95% of the total time you're gonna see them in their entire life.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then once they leave home after they turn 18, say they go to college or they leave to go do whatever, the remaining amount of time is five percent.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: You've told me to stop before, and I don't like it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it either.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I picture it like that.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of want I kind of want your research team to uh do some digging and figure out the truth because you know the 95-5 thing is it's it's disheartening, but it's also a reminder to kind of like this is this is kind of it, you gotta kind of enjoy it while it lasts.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so really just kind of being present when you have the option to be present um before they leave is a pretty good way to approach that.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: And then I'm hearing you guys both say that quote unquote being present needs to shift over time because what it looks like to be present with little girls or little children is different than what it looks like to be present with preteens or teens who are inherently separating.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I have a couple of things to say.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: First, I want to respond more a little more in depth around this grief piece because the other thing to know about any of us when we're grieving is we can get really disorganized.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: It feels disorganized in the brain.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: It can feel confusing, we we lose our sense of instincts, we can be um what's the word?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Just sort of unclear, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you think there's like this long, slow up and down version of grief.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, Jane, that you've been doing this for a couple of years, and you alluded to that as well.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: That I think in those moments when we're not feeling clear, we lose sense of trust of uh within ourselves.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Jim, you said, you know, it it was heartbreaking that my girls didn't trust me.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: And there's two things that I I guess I want to say to that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: One is maybe they were feeding off of something that you didn't trust you inside, and they just kind of intuitively knew to go to Kate for this specific thing.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I also think that sometimes they just go to the similar gender for certain things, you know?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: And because there's this sense of, oh, maybe you've been here before.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that that's the hook of it not being personal, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Of it's like, it's maybe not that they don't trust you, but they don't trust that they know how to relate to you in this way.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's actually kind of the heart of what how I really understand separation and individuation is that they're going to push back over and over again, but they're not pushing us away.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: They're certainly not pushing you guys away.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: They're pushing away the old way of relation.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where we have to get creative around how to show up differently.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: You know what's so interesting about this example that Jamie just gave, you know, of course we're talking about things that have to do with being a girl, right?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: So we're talking about body and sex and sexuality and those sort of things.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I think what's really interesting is that when I through my conversation with our daughter, it actually became very clear and Jamie wasn't there, that it wasn't about not trusting Jamie because all along the way, our daughters have actually been or especially our older one has been very open with Jamie about body changes and crutches and interests and things.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so it she was able to identify that it wasn't that she didn't trust him, it was that it was a and her word was embarrassing.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: It was an embarrassing conversation to have with her dad which makes so much sense.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely the other thing I'll say about what when you were talking about the brain is that that it is nature.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: It is truly their brains are changing form and they get like this almost thicker layer around them where they a can't really hear our input because they're desperately trying to learn how to listen to themselves, how to create their own thoughts and opinions, how to keep hearing their own voice.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is why it presents as egocentric self-absorption or even narcissism sometimes.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's like wow they are so consumed with themselves because they actually have to learn how to listen to themselves.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so I always remind myself and the moms I work with is that up until around 12 before right when they start going into adolescence, we have a lot of input like they can actually absorb our wisdom and our advice and our lessons and all these things.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: But then they can't actually hear it for a little while so that they can hear their own voices.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a thought yes and I was listening I think it's um when you're talking to someone and you can feel their discomfort and sometimes you start to feel uncomfortable totally if you're tapped in and operate on that kind of level and I'm realizing that in a way like I feel like a teenager in some respects.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm feeling their disease and their discomfort I'm just I'm like mirroring it a little bit myself and not catching it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And 98% of the time it could be the adult and also you get like tripped up into that it's like the reflection of who's in front of you and um it can be just destabilizing like on your heels a little bit like I say to the kids all the time I've never been a parent of a 16, 13 14 year old daughter before like this is my first time too and I always feel like that's comforting for them to hear because and for myself to say out loud just because I don't know what I'm doing.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can read the books and you can talk to people that are close to you.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: We have two amazing bedrocks of knowledge and heart and information and with all that you're just you're flying by the seater pants.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_04: You just are that's so interesting.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_04: I just want to I want to sort of honor the bravery that it takes for any of us to recognize that right I think it's easier to just go through the motions and not take ownership for our part in things because it's really easy to be like they're just being assholes right or to be like they're just careless or whatever sort of judgmental things we can place on them.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: And to be quite frank, sometimes they are assholes and sometimes they are careless.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not that that's not true.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: But of course we play a part.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I just I don't know I'm curious Jamie to know what your thoughts are on that.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_04: I I think this is such a tricky question to dig into honestly because it it really requires us to say what you just said which is we don't know what we're doing.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know does that relate to you um yeah it's it's clear we don't know what we're doing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we have what our parents taught us but that's not always a great solution.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some I mean we take what we like and we you know forget about some of it and keep some of it and other parts of it are like coded into our DNA and we can't do anything about it.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah I mean I think it's I mean I think it's important just to just to be patient and and if you're in a situation when you don't when you don't know what's going on just take a breath and just think about it for a minute.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be reactive and I think that that's that's constantly happening with our girls is like um you know from the from the days they were born it's like we have to figure we're figuring out as we go.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah if you can just take a minute to to think and you know just breathe and then I I think that just goes a long way.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Comedic outtake when I did not take a minute.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully they're not listening.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this was I don't know like eight months ago or so and Deb and our oldest daughter went to the store to buy new underwear and Deb comes back and she comes to the room she's like so you know I got you know I got a G string for her and I was like oh wow and um I just didn't think at all I opened the door and I was like hey I heard you got G string underwear she was like dad just like we're so involved I mean our family's like close and we talk about everything and it was one of those moments where like I always say you know I don't know any different I have daughters and like what's the big deal it's like yes I'm sure there's some nuances well that was nuance and like I didn't have to be involved I wanted to be involved.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't put any of that together I was kind of excited for her and um it didn't really land but it was funny.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: You know what's so funny actually Jamie I want you to tell the similar story from when we are in LA it's a similar but different story from when we were in LA and and there was a uh a bargain with Kinley to go swimming in the cold water.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is a G string story will you tell that story I am trying to remember the the events um we were we were on the beach and this is gonna sound like bad parenting but I'm just I'm just gonna I'm just gonna have bad parenting I'm gonna say it because it's funny.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So our daughter Kinley she likes to shop and from the very beginning we've tried to teach our girls to be really kind of mindful and responsible with their money.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Kinley's having a harder time with that than Bridger and so as a result Kinley is has basically spent all her money.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't have any money left.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we're on the beach in California it's winter the water is not necessarily warm like there are people surfing they're all wearing full wetsuits and stuff and I was like oh it'd be kind of funny to just like throw some money in front of Kinley and see if maybe she takes a bet.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I said Kinley I'll I'll give you how much was it 40 bucks it was I'll say I'll give you 40 bucks if you you know take off all your clothes and just go jump in the ocean and go totally underwater.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt bad because she in one way she was like an easy target because I knew she didn't have any money.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then we were just like sitting on the beach and doing nothing and like what's the harm in just jumping in the water and like you know getting out of your comfort zone and doing something just random and spontaneous and we were gonna get a a laugh out of it.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So Kinley's like you know her eyes lit up and she's like really you give me$40 to go get in the water I was like yeah yeah let's we'll just we'll sit here and watch and about 12 seconds later she's got all her clothes off except for underwear and she's got this like super tiny G string on and I was like hey ho she turns around and runs into the water and I'm like oh my god so she turns and runs into the ocean and I'm like you know I'm not thinking about the 40 bucks and I'm like oh my god it's I think she's naked but to her credit she goes in you know wades out goes underwater comes back out and you know we were all laughing and she thought it was fun and it was worth it and I was like you know I I don't really advocate like you know bribing our kids to do things for money but um I don't know the timing just was just right and it was just funny.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I got at least$40 worth of entertainment out of that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I think one thing I just want to name which is back to this topic which is like her comfort in being in a G string in front of her dad she was not faced about that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just interesting to think about who's leading the discomfort sometimes they are sometimes we are you know I also um I mean it's it was a public very public beach there were a lot of people around it was not like we were the only ones there.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not the only time that I've paid them to do something funny.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love having your daughters a year ahead of ours well it's it's funny I mean I think a lot about how we always loved talking with our friends Ted and Abby about their daughters who were several years ahead of ours and we just thought that they were such great parents and we loved how their girls were so we kind of stole some material from them.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Still stealing yes parent mentors it's like key oh my God.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay so Kate I have to respond to what you wait hold on one second.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes um Kinley I'm sorry I left my child's name out earlier they already know them they were all here on the podcast already I when you said Kate who's leading the discomfort um it it actually brings up kind of to the seg next topic I want to talk about because well a couple things one you were trying to include yourself in Sage's underwear experience okay and that is kind of going to what Jane was saying earlier like sometimes I feel a little left out and I guess I just want to acknowledge and appreciate the the interest and the attempt to include yourself.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: It just wasn't the best topic um but I think that's actually a really important thing for dads particularly in a in a home where they're the only male that how do you include yourself?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's actually a really important question asked because this is where dads have to get creative to do it in a way that is really thoughtful you know that's gonna actually be helpful in developing the relationship okay so but James going to what you said that Kinley was totally comfortable.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: She just was like this is my body this is me this is how our kids are right now they are having such a different experience around their bodies as being sexual beings we, our generation tends to sexualize them way before they are sexualizing each other.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: And this is actually a really big problem that has been going on since the beginning of the time in fact dad sorry I'm gonna out you if you're listening um when my breast came in my dad stopped hugging me tight and I loved his hugs and it was really sad for me and I didn't know how to articulate it then.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: But just this last vacation he like hugged me all kind of awkward and I was like dad give me a real hug and he's like sorry I didn't want to be intrusive those were his exact words.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I I just like felt it in a different level of what that must be like for you guys watching your daughters develop and become women and what happens for you.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Please enlighten us it's a hard one you want to go round one here I've gone a few times.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to I'll go I'll go round one um I think it's tricky I think you're always just kind of like I think the line's always moving but um yeah it's a tricky one.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't figured out a a way to I haven't figured out a solution for this one you know of our daughters one of them is a hugger the other one is not so much a hugger and we we sort of know that like so it's not you know it's it's about the individual too um but yeah I mean going back to like figuring it out as we go I've never been the the parent of a of a girl I don't know it is I'm learning a lot of stuff so but um it's yeah it's just I think it's just feeling like uh a lot of times I feel like I'm just like uh in uncharted territory I just don't know where I am do you ever name that to your girls not like vocally or verbally if I do it it's like through my body language or my the way the way I would hug them or or or humor.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or humor yeah it's got its place.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I can echo that to where the the line is always moving and I think for me I found myself just observing more taking like a half step back and not feeling upset about the distance that I've been speaking about it's a different kind of step where I'm just letting them kind of go through their process of watching their body change.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And for Sage who's more in the thick of it right now I notice as she's developing like there's like more clothing or more the door closes and as sh seemingly as she's becoming more comfortable with it now she's out in the house and she's got no bra and she's like you know wearing her sweatshirt over that or just like kind of being comfortable with herself and knowing that it's not awkward around me and I could just be in the space with her.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: So again of that that mirroring is just like trying to meet them where they're at and when they're feeling comfortable to not make anything about it it's their body and it's their clothes and they're expressing and it's changing and I mean I too I wasn't a girl but I was a boy that went through all these changes as well and there's a lot of similarities there too.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was a very late bloomer so I had my own like history with it.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Jamie and I have laughed about this for a long time that we didn't hit puberty until we were like 26 I started shaving when I like dated Deb at 28 it's okay.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm aging like a fine wine but um I mean it's just kind of fascinating.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And also when you look at all the kids their age nobody's like in the same spot they're all half click off in every single direction.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just there's so much going on there.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really like yes it's my child but it can also separate out like they're all going through this and they're all trying it out and they're all wanting to dress a certain way whether that be an individual style or something that's like more to fit in with the group and it's just all really fascinating.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: Can I go back to your question for a minute?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Did I veer off?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_04: No, no not in any I mean it's all good.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_04: This is all such rich conversation but I want to go back to the part of your question I heard you ask Deb was I'm not gonna say the same way you did, but where do you lean in right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_04: When you want to be involved where do you lean in and Jamie you and I just had a conversation about this yesterday because we were talking about the birthday gift that we gave our 16 year old daughter and for her birthday Jamie took both of our daughters backcountry skiing cat skiing and we sort of had this curious conversation of who was that gift for?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_04: Was it for Kinley or was it for Jamie right?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not like Jamie offered to take Kinley to the mall right he offered to take her skiing.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: And then that sort of veered into this conversation of oh well it was a gift for both of them because that's where they connect.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering since it was you if you could speak a bit to that answering that question where do you lean in where do you look for connection with your daughters and I think in many ways it's around being active yeah I mean I think our family has done a great job of creating um lots of ways that we can all connect um outdoors whether it's hiking biking skiing camping backpacking and we just not only do we connect with the four of us but we connect with you know Rubens as well.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know um I just knew that for her birthday I wanted to give her an experience instead of a thing.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was all I knew.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I also was hoping that that experience would be like unique and different in a way that you know it's not something you can just you can just go do anytime of the day anywhere you are it had to be sort of unique and special and hopefully a little scary and um just a little scary scary enough.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: But um but yeah that's kind of like that's just kind of where it came from like I I just knew um I mean I think I think a lot of me is driven by that 95 five thing and I think you know we don't have to have you know I don't think we want to be with our kids a hundred percent of our time but I think it's like making concerted efforts to to create really unique special experiences like every once in a while that goes a long way because it's funny like I think I don't I for I was talking about this with a friend the other day about how like you know we think back to our childhoods and um the memories that stand out are the the really unique special ones and maybe your family only took you backpacking three times but you're like your memory is like oh my god we used to go backpacking all the time when we were kids right and I think it's a little bit like that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think it carries a lot more weight when it's a something that just breaks them out of their kind of everyday comfort zone.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Please yeah um along those lines of memories and Deb loves to say don't trust your memories which I get a chuckle at and so does everybody else I was thinking the exact same thing as you were talking about you just remember like I have 30 memories from when I was younger right I remember and then the rest I made up through pictures and there's also this little gift in there of when you do have a hard day with your daughter, with your partner, with your friends, with yourself, whatever it might be just remember there's so many opportunities to come at it you know correct whatever that means for you again because that's like the overarching feeling that people are left with when they think back over time is not those little jabs unless that's the whole thing or or downturns or dips or whatnot.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's a much bigger picture than that.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not those little moments.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: So taking you know a backcountry trip with Kenley and Bridger like that's the memory and of course they're gonna say we did it all the time and we went backpacking all the time and um that's what gets me through when there's like hard moments that I can come back, clean the slate and just try again.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: So you're speaking to perspective which is so good and so important to remember because they don't have it right now.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so then when we hold the perspective we can actually lend it to them energetically over and over again of tomorrow you know or this big trajectory of what it's all going to look like.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for saying that.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: James you said that I just was has such a nugget of wisdom I have to pull it out that you're you were like I want to give them experience and then you didn't say this but what I heard is an experience that is about my value system.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually think that is incredible because so much of mothering and fathering is around staying steady to who we are right in this martial Art movement of meeting them where they are and adjusting.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: So we talk a lot about like how can you find little moments of connection, even if it means going to target with them, which is like so annoying.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I walk in there and I instantly have a headache, you know?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: But but they love it, right?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so how can I like meet them on their level?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: And they still need us to be us, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because their whole world is so unstable right now, and their peers are unstable and everything's reorganizing, like we were talking about before.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so when they have like dad, Jamie, who is, I know that backcountry skiing is something that gives me a little fear, gives me a lot of joy, makes me feel like I'm really far out there, and really builds a different sense of confidence.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: That is you coming in as you, and they need that more than ever right now.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, I just I love the visual of a martial art because we're it's a both and all the time.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I guess I want to remind all our listeners like don't lose who you are while you're adjusting to who they are.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a little bit like my comment to Jamie was it, it it's not that it was a gift for Kinley or a gift for Jamie.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: It was a gift for the relationship, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: And that's so I love what you're saying.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_04: I've never thought about it that way, Deb, but that first of all, I love the martial arts image, it's so perfect, but also that invitation to meet at the place of value, right?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: To meet at the place of being, adventurous, uh, fear, healthy fear, nature, sport, play, right?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_04: All of those things that Jamie are so true and inherent to who you are as a human being.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like so it's less about the doing and more about the invitation to meet in that place, right?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's so good.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: That's such a good reframe.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, um did I mess Kinley up when I paid her 40 bucks to go in the ocean?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: 100% no.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: I thought the number was perfect.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, it's a very Jamie Kripke number.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what's enough?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which clearly hit the right number, but not too much where it feels like out of whack.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know what her bank account balance is.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because then it just escalates the next time.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's more money.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, along those lines, and I was as I'm sitting here thinking about raising a daughter.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's certainly pieces that like lean in towards gender, and others that I think for me, like I've tried to just not well, I haven't tried to, I just I don't really think about it the whole time, or maybe not so much at all.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And like a place where I lean in is I love fixing things, right?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a Friday night maybe like a month ago.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was just trying to think back like things that I had pride around doing with the girls and like memories.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, Tess was gonna do whatever that night, it was Friday night, and I was like, hey, um, do you want to fix the washing machine with me?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: A resounding no.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like,$15 an hour, it's gonna take us an hour and a half.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: I got the video, I got the parts, and she was like super not into it.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it'll be fun, we'll make memories.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just said it to her.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't a thousand percent sure how it was gonna go, but I was pretty confident I can get it done.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like the best 90 minutes ever.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were so deep in, there were a hundred screws out.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: The machine was like, I had no idea really.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I watched the video, but then you start doing it, you're like, oh shit, this could be the end of this washing machine.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um she was adorable, like we just got such a chuckle out of it, and I feel like that might be something where like a dad of a daughter might shy away from just because it's like a typical like boy man task of like fixing and doing, and I just for me, like I never thought about that.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're a human, you have hands and eyes and ears and a brain, and you can like we can do this step by step.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it just became such a cool little bonding experience, and then I vemoed her and it took 90 minutes and it was like so.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have to ask, like, you're when you're when you're bringing her in for that job, you're really building the suspense toward the moment when you put it all back together and push the button to see if it works.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, did it work?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: It sure did.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good moment.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Did so did was she excited?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there was a point where you when you're um like doing any kind of project, a piece of art or writing, you're so close to it that you can't see like where you're headed, but you just intuitively know where to go.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: And at one point, as an adult, I think you you learn that over time, right?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: You trust yourself that like I'm so deep and I know I'm gonna find the end.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: But as a as a kid, like you don't get that.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And she pulled back at one point and looked at like the image of how many parts were like just dislodged, and she was like, Oh, where are we headed?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it was just I think that like those experiences are what builds character and builds that stability and that trust, whether it be you know backcountry skiing or fixing something, is like just feeling that that confidence in yourself and that that stability that you can just that you can ride it out.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you did this one washer repair job, and from now on, like your daughters will think of you as like, oh, my dad all used to make me fix things all the time.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, the oven is broken right now, and I think I think I know who to bring in.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, there's so many nuggets there.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, first of all, money.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think money is a wonderful tool for motivation, right?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: They want freedom and they want to buy things.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: And if they can find ways to earn money that are gonna also help build a memory, I'm I'm giving it a thumbs up.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Fair value exchange.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Fair value exchange.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I remember just on that note, Jamie, like you reminded me, I think your girls were raking.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, Howie, like they gotta pay pay by the job, not by the hour.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well, let's see.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then I came home and my girls were raking, and like it was four hours, and there was like a bag of leaves.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, pay by the job.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing you said that is such a metaphor was you know, I don't know how this is gonna end, but I don't, but I know we're gonna get there.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that is like how do we as parents see the forest through the trees, you know, where in the moment of feeling this deep frustration with them or feeling like they're being lazy or feeling like they're whatever the story is that we attach ourselves to, those are just the trees.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: And like I just think I want to just get a visual of you and Tess and all the screws and knowing, and then Jamie brought it to the end of like pressing the button.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that is that's it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we're doing every single day as parents.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_04: Metaphorically.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we're almost out of time.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_04: I have I have one question I'd love to ask, which is a quick, I think this is a quick question with a quick answer.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Deb and I are both really fierce about our um belief that in order to parent well, we need to take care of ourselves first.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm wondering if you both might be willing to just mention a few things that you know that you do.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think both of you actually do this beautifully well.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_04: I and I think it's sort of a Kruben family culture, this idea of making space to take care of each person's own self.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm wondering if you all would be willing to just mention a couple of things that you know that you need to do to take care of yourself so that when you show up to father your daughters, to parent your kids, you are more likely to do that in a place where you're less reactive.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go like one-on-one back and forth.
• 51:56
  unknown: Okay.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Go see music.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh spend time alone.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Be in nature.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Spend time alone in nature.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hang out with our buddies.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, eat healthy food.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Read.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um Make things, be creative.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do nothing.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do nothing is a good one.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh therapy.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot the question.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, I didn't really forgot the question was gonna be with my partner, my wife.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like just fill that cup.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, stay connected to family.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Be part of a community.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like you're getting bigger.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean this this list goes on and on.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think the point is like you gotta take care of yourself um before you can be in a place to take care of someone else.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just to not lose yourself in all that.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's easy to be.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we're gonna make this a short answer.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: All those things are real.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, it's it's easy to just get really myopic and be like, I am just a parent.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I actually have a friend that I met with over coffee, because that's what you do in Boulder and probably everywhere else now.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: You have coffee dates, and um he's early 50s, about to have his first child, super psyched.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, you know, he's like, hey, Howie, what's that one, what's the one piece of advice you give me?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that because you know, he's like old enough to like have like a lot more perspective.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: We were younger, I was like, oh shit, we're having a baby, like bowl together.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's also no matter what age you are, it's still like going into the whirlwind.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember that from almost about one month after having Sage, we had a Wednesday night date night that we ran every week for almost 10 years, probably longer.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that was even if we weren't hungry, we went out to eat, we went on a hike, if we were not in the best space with each other, we just went and did that by ourselves.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just this notion of just still being you throughout the whole thing and holding on to that because ultimately that's that you have to have the differentiation between child, whether it's a boy or a girl or whoever.
• 54:40
  unknown: Beautifully said.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, you guys, thank you.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: This has been so beautiful.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I feel like I want another one because there's so many layers, and I think the biggest takeaways is that there's no answers here, right?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: You're talking about being flexible, adjusting moment to moment.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: You're talking about self-care, you're talking about honoring the grief, you're talking about having deep compassion for yourselves and your daughters, you know.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think the more we can really feel the chaos that they're going through right now allows us all, and you said this, like to stay in our adult, right?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's so easy to get pulled into the adolescent versions of all of us, and it's how he said so beautifully, like, you know, I I can teenage out with them, and then we get nowhere.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so they need us to be the adults.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_03: And everything you just said around self-care and just having the conversation brings us back into our adult moment to moment, and that's when we actually know exactly what to do because there's not that much to do except witness them and you know, share our values and hold their hands when they fall over and over again.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: Anything, Dad?
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_04: No, beautifully said.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_04: You guys are awesome.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: Any final words of wisdom for dads of daughters or dads of teens or dads in general out there?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think it would be fun to come back and do a second episode, but um Howie's 15 bucks an hour and I'm 40 bucks flat fee.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh big fan of Motherhood Uncut.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Great job, ladies.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's pretty fun to have you guys on here with us um today.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you both for your willingness to, you know, as we say to every interview we've had, like this is not easy to get in public and talk about your innermost experiences.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_04: So kudos to you guys.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'm really proud to be your co-parent, Jane, and I'm really proud, Howie, to be your co-third, fourth parent team.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_04: I think you guys are just amazing and reflective and kind and passionate and curious.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_04: And our daughters are incredibly lucky to have you as their fathers.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_04: It makes me want to cry a little bit when I say that out loud.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate that.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Love you guys.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: Ditto that.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: We love parenting with you, Kripkeys.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: Later, Deb.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Later, Katie.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.