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Jarrod Longbons on why The Future Church Is Eucharistic · Future Christian

0:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a
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conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas,
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and the future of the church. Today, Loren
0:18
Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with the Reverend
0:21
Dr. Jared Longbons. Dr. Longbons is the senior
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minister of Peachtree Christian Church, where he
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seeks to share the heart of Christ in the heart of
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the city. A pastor, theologian, and gifted
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communicator, he brings together thoughtful
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biblical interpretation, pastoral warmth, and a
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passion for connecting faith with contemporary
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life. Jared is deeply committed to discipleship,
0:45
worship, and cultivating a church that serves both
0:48
its members and the wider community. He has an
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undergraduate degree in theology and homiletics
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from Lincoln Christian University and a master's
0:58
degree in contemporary theology focusing on
1:00
theology, philosophy, and ecology. He earned his
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Ph.D. in theology from the University of
1:07
Nottingham under the supervision of John Milbank.
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Dr. Longbon's research focuses on the doctrine of
1:14
creation, ecology, and the church as a community
1:17
of creation. His wife, Colleen, has been an
1:21
indispensable part of his ministry for over 10
1:23
years, first as a volunteer to youth, and then
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later as a mentor to young women and as a member
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of various groups. Dr. Longbons describes Colleen
1:33
as his partner in redemption who enchants the
1:36
world. They have two daughters and a son. A
1:40
reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:43
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review, and share Future Christian with a
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friend. Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future
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Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
1:54
email@laurensonatemediaproah.com with comments,
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questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your
2:02
support and voice mean a lot to us in making this
2:05
podcast possible.
2:12
>> Loren: Hello. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My
2:14
name is Loren Richmond, Jr. And I'm pleased to be
2:16
joined today by the Reverend Dr. Jared Longbonds.
2:21
Hello. Welcome to the show.
2:23
>> Jared Longbons: Hi. Thanks for having me, Loren.
2:24
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for being here. So let's begin with
2:27
this. Anything else you want our listeners to know
2:30
about you?
2:31
>> Jared Longbons: Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a father of three
2:34
children that, uh, I adore being, uh, with them
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and my wife. So we are just like a bundle of
2:42
energy in our house. So I always tell people I'm
2:46
married to Colleen, who's a wonderful partner in
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redemption. I have three kids, uh, 13, 11 and 6.
2:54
And then my parents live with me half the time and
2:57
their little dog. And then I have a dog and a cat
2:59
and 11 backyard chickens. So our little area of
3:03
Atlanta, Georgia is full of life. Yeah. One m way
3:05
or the other.
3:06
>> Loren: Do you have. How often do you have eggs then? How
3:08
often do you have eggs for breakfast? I guess Is a
3:10
good question.
3:11
>> Jared Longbons: Um, well we have them like in a supply now so uh,
3:15
and they slow down during the winter. But what
3:18
ends up happening is I like to give them out a
3:20
lot. So sometimes that supply goes low. Um, but
3:24
someone in the house has them every day and I
3:27
think I'm going to start eating breakfast more
3:29
regularly again. I got out of the habit because of
3:32
medicine stuff made my stomach feel funny. But I
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think I'm in a place now where I can have
3:36
breakfast again more regularly. And I do love a
3:38
couple eggs and some nice toast.
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>> Loren: Man, I wish I lived near you. I don't eat eggs
3:44
that much but I enjoy, enjoy Good, you know, farm
3:48
fresh egg there.
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>> Jared Longbons: I know, I know and it is something about it. Uh,
3:52
they are more earthy, they are more vibrant
3:54
looking. So I just convinced myself that my father
3:57
in law jokes with us and you know, he was a farmer
3:59
for a lot of his years and he would say, he
4:01
smiles, he goes, how much do your eggs really cost
4:03
you? And I say, uh, it doesn't matter, we're not
4:05
doing it for that reason. We're doing it because
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it makes my wife happy and it makes us close to a
4:09
food source. So chill out. Right, right.
4:12
>> Loren: The economies of scale may or may not work there
4:17
that well. Share if you would kind of about your
4:19
faith background, what that's looked like in the
4:21
past and what that looks like today.
4:24
>> Jared Longbons: You know, when I was a little kid, uh, I didn't
4:26
know what church was for a number of years. I
4:28
remember like playing in the neighborhood and
4:30
going to kids houses on Sunday and the parents
4:33
saying well, we're going to church. And I didn't
4:34
know what that meant. My, my parents ostensibly
4:36
had me when they were barely adults. I mean they
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were so young and we did not go to church at all.
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My dad grew up Roman Catholic and kind of had a
4:45
traumatic uh, ah, childhood. So by the time he was
4:48
an adult he kind of pulled away from the church.
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Um, and my mom too, she had a background, uh, at a
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particular kind of church and she wasn't really
4:57
invested but ah, a little bit older. Uh, as a
5:01
child my grandmother died and that led my
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grandfather who is not a churchgoer, not a
5:07
faithful man in terms of uh, any sort of, you
5:09
know, adherence to a religion. The Sunday after
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she died, he, he pulled up to our house and said
5:16
load up, we're going to church. And he drugged my
5:18
family to church every Sunday. And for him it was
5:20
sort of this M mentality that he wanted to, when
5:23
he died, he wanted to Be wherever his wife was.
5:25
Um, so we started going to this little country
5:28
church outside of. I'm from, um, a small city in.
5:31
In Illinois and called Decatur, Illinois. And this
5:33
was more on the outskirts. So the people who went
5:36
to this church were more rural, where I was more
5:38
inner city. And, um, but it was the church that my
5:41
mom's family associated with as a. As a kid. And
5:45
my dad at the time worked weekends, so we just. We
5:48
just started that practice. Even when he passed,
5:50
we kept going. Um, and when my dad finally, uh,
5:54
got the weekends off of his job, he was wise
5:58
enough not to want to pull us away from the
5:59
community. And so he did not take us, uh, to the
6:02
Roman Catholic Church. However, he made certain
6:05
that my family was very steeped in it. So I always
6:08
say I grew up a little bit half Catholic and half
6:12
something else. And frankly, by the time I, um,
6:17
came to faith myself and it was more formative, I
6:21
found myself as a bit of a Catholic apologist in a
6:24
setting that wasn't always so friendly to
6:25
Catholicism. Um, then by the time I felt like I
6:30
was even called into ministry, I think if the
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Catholic Church, um, let priests get married, I
6:35
probably would have gone that way. I had deep,
6:38
profound respect for the beauty and a sense of
6:41
sacramentality. Um, however, you know, you know
6:44
who you know, and I was in a tradition and in a
6:47
church in an environment that, uh, sent kids a
6:50
particular training area and all this, that and
6:51
the other. And so I went down that road and. And,
6:54
um, so that's kind of the. The basic background
6:57
of. Of my, um, how I came to some sort of faith.
7:00
But ultimately, um, I found myself within the
7:03
tradition that we call the Restoration Movement or
7:05
the Stone Campbell Movement, uh, specifically the
7:07
Disciples of Christ. Um, when I was, you know,
7:11
studying for the ministry in a school setting
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that, you know, my family, we didn't have a bunch
7:15
of clergy in the background, so we didn't know
7:16
where to go. We didn't know how to do this. And,
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you know, I hopped around and finally got some.
7:22
Some people advising me to study at certain
7:24
places. And I found myself into this tradition.
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And Loren, what's interesting is after having done
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some genealogy, I found out that my family has
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deep roots within the Restoration Movement. So.
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>> Loren: Interesting.
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>> Jared Longbons: It's a strange. So, yeah. Um, but. And then in my
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service to the. In this tradition, whether it was
7:41
during seminary or just out of seminary or in my
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formative study, I have served, um, all three
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branches of what's called the Restoration
7:49
Movement. I've been in the Church of Christ,
7:51
Independent Christian churches and the Disciples.
7:53
So I consider myself firmly within that tradition.
7:58
And then academically as I went forward, um, most
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of my research, especially at the PhD level was in
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um, Eastern Orthodox thinkers, Catholic thinkers,
8:07
Anglican thinkers. So, um, it's led me to a place
8:11
now where I consider myself a free church,
8:13
Catholic in the sense that I go to a church that's
8:16
free church. Um, ours is specifically Disciples
8:19
Church. But I have a very sacramental, uh, not
8:23
sentimentality but a mindset about things. Um, and
8:26
my church itself has a very high liturgy which
8:29
kind of engenders that. But I don't know if that's
8:31
what you mean by faith background. If you wanted
8:32
more of the nitty gritty about how I did awful and
8:35
God saved save me or something. But yeah, those
8:37
are true things too. You know, I feel, I felt
8:40
called back to God after wondering and all that,
8:42
you know. But that's my basic story.
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>> Loren: Yeah, that's great. You know, that's a nice, for
8:47
our listeners who are not, um, within the Stone
8:50
Campbell tradition or more broadly Disciples of
8:53
Christ. That's a kind of nice flux you got there,
8:55
Jared. Of like all three branches of the Stone
8:58
Campbell movement.
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>> Jared Longbons: Yeah, it's, it's, people think it's unique when I
9:03
meet them. And um, and I do anyway now. But uh,
9:06
yeah, they different, uh, gifts I think, you know,
9:10
and, and technical, like more theological
9:12
language, we might say charisms. Right. Different
9:14
gifts that we bring to the table. But yet, you
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know, we come from this, this, this shared
9:19
background of uh, desire to look like the New
9:22
Testament and be unity oriented and all that.
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>> Loren: Yeah. What are some spiritual practices? Anything
9:27
you're willing to share, uh, that's been
9:29
meaningful for you?
9:31
>> Jared Longbons: Oh man. So I, I listen so many. Right. So I do
9:36
spiritual direction, I'm in spiritual direction.
9:39
And um, I do a lot of meditation and
9:41
contemplation. But I, I will tell you about
9:44
something that's really recent for me. I, I, I had
9:46
this moment the other day as I was, I, I can't
9:50
remember who I was reading. I was reading some um,
9:53
some spiritual writer from uh, from a long time
9:56
ago, talking about the practices of silence and
9:58
solitude. Mhm. And um, you know, before I started
10:03
that, that day's reading, I was probably thinking,
10:06
I do solitude fairly well. I'm a pretty
10:09
extroverted person, but I actually carve out time
10:12
to be alone. Ministry has made me need that more.
10:16
But I had this moment of insight um, while I was
10:19
reading and thinking that my solitude isn't very
10:23
good solitude these days. Loren, I. I fill it with
10:26
distraction. So here's my day for you. My m. Kind
10:31
of typical morning. I try to wake up at 4 in the
10:33
morning. I come downstairs here and I try to
10:38
write. So I've got a couple things I'm trying to
10:40
get published, some book projects. And I found out
10:44
the only way I could get that done is if I got up
10:46
earlier because I don't have the energy later in
10:48
the day. And so 4 o' clock from 4 to 6, I do that.
10:52
And at 6, I, I go out of my front porch behind the
10:55
hedges outside my window here, and I get into an
10:57
ice bath because, um, you know, I, that's. You
11:02
don't know this, or people don't know this, but I
11:04
had a liver transplant two years ago and I went
11:07
through this sickness. And so, um, I can't take a
11:10
lot of painkillers, so the ice really helps. And,
11:12
uh, then I get up, go upstairs, get the kids up,
11:16
and I start working for church work. Right. Start
11:18
working then as they're getting ready. And then,
11:21
you know, I kind of continue on with that until I
11:23
head to the office or something. And, um, I
11:26
started noticing that even in the silent 4 o'
11:28
clock hour, the first thing I do is I listen to a
11:31
podcast or, you know, or an audible book or put
11:34
music on the background. Even going and sitting in
11:37
the cold water, it's like an external.
11:39
Everything's a distracting mechanism. Uh, I'll
11:42
take my two and a half mile walk that I like to
11:44
take by the park. And I'm listening to something.
11:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:47
>> Jared Longbons: I realize my solitude isn't truly solitude. Right.
11:50
So, so then I go, oh, okay, so it's time to start
11:53
trying something a little different. So now, over
11:56
the past two weeks, I've been, uh, as I lay
11:59
waking, uh, up, or as I come and I come to my
12:01
little study here at the house, I try to spend ten
12:03
minutes, uh, with reflection upon God. And, um.
12:09
And I noticed the monkey mind. Right. It's a
12:11
Buddhist thought or, you know, it's, it's all
12:13
through, um, ah, Church fathers too, where you
12:16
just kind of, your mind spins to tasks, to things
12:19
you want to problems you want to solve, to
12:21
creative everything. You know, your mind goes all
12:23
over the place.
12:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:25
>> Jared Longbons: And the first experience of that, I started
12:27
getting very, um, Midwestern. I'm very Midwestern.
12:30
And my wife makes the joke that being Midwestern
12:32
means we apologize for our existence. You know, we
12:35
don't mean to burden you with our being here. Um,
12:38
so my thought in those moments was uh, initially,
12:41
like, oh, gosh, God, I'm so sorry. I can't even. I
12:45
have terrible attention span. I can't even focus
12:47
on you. Like, oh, I'm so sorry, God. But then I
12:50
was reminded of something I had read, that any
12:54
opportunity to return your mind to God is just
12:58
returning to God. And any returning to God is a
13:02
profoundly wonderful gift. And so then I just sat
13:05
there and I started going, okay, my mind is
13:08
wandering. Oh, that's okay. And then I just. I
13:11
returned to God by the mantra of be still and know
13:13
that I am God. Right. And I turned my. To that.
13:16
And I just think, well, this is a gift to come
13:18
home. I'm coming home in this thought. And, um.
13:21
And I realize that that practice is the purpose.
13:25
So it's like, there's no destination that I'm
13:28
getting to. That practice of returning my mind
13:30
from the chaos back. Yeah. That's the point of it.
13:33
So that's something I'm doing right now. And it's.
13:35
It's not filled with warm and fuzzies, but it's.
13:38
It's. It's meaningful.
13:40
>> Loren: Man, that's good stuff. Thanks for sharing that.
13:43
>> Jared Longbons: Uh, yeah. I mean, it's. I'm. I'm happy
13:45
something's. I'm. My spiritual. I emailed him this
13:49
last night because I can't make our next meeting.
13:50
But let me tell you what's going on. I want you to
13:52
know I'm doing stuff right. I'm trying. So I'm
13:54
glad that there's something happening now that I
13:56
can share.
13:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:58
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah.
13:59
>> Loren: Well, Jared and I met, what, this summer at
14:04
Disciples of Christ General assembly in Memphis.
14:08
So we're talking about each other's podcasts, and
14:11
I just happened to listen somewhat recently to an
14:15
episode you put up, and I was like, oh, my
14:18
goodness. This is, like, touches on so many things
14:21
that I've been thinking about myself, been trying
14:24
to talk about on the podcast. This podcast. Uh, I
14:27
guess I can need to put that in the show notes
14:29
here that your episode. Um. But talk about maybe
14:34
that overview of what you're talking about in that
14:37
presentation.
14:38
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah.
14:39
>> Loren: That all kind of inform our conversation here.
14:42
>> Jared Longbons: So. Yeah. So my podcast, Complex Creatures, has
14:44
been a little on hiatus because we're doing. Uh,
14:47
not on hiatus. We've been recording, but haven't
14:50
been putting out episodes because we've been
14:52
working very hard on a strategic plan for our
14:54
congregation. Sure. But our comms director, who
14:57
does that for me, took a talk I gave in November
15:01
at the icom, uh, conference, International
15:03
Conference on Mission, which is predominantly, uh,
15:06
independent Christian churches and churches of
15:08
Christ folk. Out of our shared tradition. There's
15:11
uh, thousands of people that met in Atlanta down
15:13
near the airport. And somebody called me and said,
15:16
would you like to be a part of a workshop? And so,
15:19
you know, I've been working on these ideas for a
15:22
while about um, um, quite well from a, from an
15:26
academic background and perspective. I'm very
15:28
interested in secularity and the work of Charles
15:31
Taylor and shifting religious attitudes. And in
15:35
the last few years I got to know a theologian at
15:38
Candler named Ted Smith, who wrote this wonderful
15:40
book called the End of Theological Education. So
15:44
if Charles Taylor talks about secularity from a
15:47
very philosophical perspective, um, Ted Smith
15:52
brings in a more sociological perspective. So I
15:57
look at Charles Taylor and then I Look at James
15:59
K.A. smith and then Andy Root. These are all
16:01
writers who have taken off Taylor and applied it
16:03
to the church. I love what they have to say and
16:07
it's very meaningful. But then what Ted is doing
16:09
is pulling on work that reflects on how we
16:13
organize ourselves, uh, as a people now. So I'm
16:17
just fascinated in general because I'm a
16:19
theologian and a pastor, so those are interesting
16:21
topics for me. But also I've spoken recently to
16:25
Ryan Burge who uh, is an author and is a
16:28
demographer. He's going to come to Peachtree next
16:30
year and speak for us. But he asked me directly,
16:33
um, he's the guy who runs graphs about religion.
16:36
He said, why are the Disciples my denomination?
16:38
Why are you the worst of the main line in terms of
16:40
decline? And my answer is, I mean, I feel like I
16:43
have a pretty strong non. It's non data driven
16:47
answer. But it's a, it's a, it's from a boots on
16:50
the ground answer. One is that a lot of our
16:52
churches are socially structured not for growth.
16:55
So it's, they're easy to decline.
16:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
16:59
>> Jared Longbons: But spiritually I feel as though we have sold uh,
17:04
a lot of our spirituality and theology or replaced
17:08
it all with social justice, um, meaning that
17:13
prophetic, uh, only style preaching. Um, so I can
17:16
get into that more in a little while. But what I
17:20
often find in my cohorts and my communities is
17:24
that um, 90% of the sermons are very politically
17:29
driven. And my point to my people, because we are
17:33
my area of the denomination, we spent all summer
17:36
studying Christian nationalism and I was one of
17:39
the leaders of it. And one of the things I noted
17:42
was that most of the churches represented did not
17:45
deal with Christian nationalism. Um, they weren't
17:48
dealing with it at all. And so, um, there's this
17:52
danger we run if we get together and have these
17:54
conversations about something like that, it can
17:57
become a ritual of purification and uh, identity.
18:00
Hey, at least we're not those people, right? And,
18:04
and then my, my follow question to us was, does it
18:07
matter what we say about Christian nationalism if
18:09
people aren't even showing up to hear us say it at
18:11
all? Like, you know, we have to be concerned about
18:13
other things such as people's transformation under
18:17
the gospel, people, uh, connecting people being
18:19
forgiven of sin, people having a growth, a closer
18:23
following. It's the spiritual stuff that, um,
18:26
it's. I always say we've replaced anything
18:28
transcendent for all imminence in our
18:30
denomination, perhaps more than others.
18:32
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:33
>> Jared Longbons: Um, and so, okay, so that is something I told Ryan
18:37
Burge. But here's my thing. When I look at. If I
18:42
could try to do an overview of that little talk,
18:44
here's what it is. Um, I am not worried about the
18:50
future of the Christian church. I mean universal
18:52
Christian churches, uh, churches are in decline
18:56
and membership of churches is in decline. Yes.
18:59
Secularity has not meant that spirituality or
19:02
religion or even belief in Jesus is in decline.
19:05
Those things remain very robust. But it's the
19:09
institutional adherence that is in decline. And
19:14
the way Ted Smith talks about it is the shift in
19:17
the social imaginary. Uh, um, most of what's in
19:22
decline is particularly unique to America. The
19:26
founding of America, right. We call it the
19:28
voluntary association Society. This is when we as
19:33
a country decided we have this new way of
19:36
imagining connecting together. It's not going to
19:38
be organized around the throne or the church or
19:41
the government of any type. We're going to decide,
19:43
hey, we want to get together and create a
19:46
benevolent society. Or uh, we have the same shared
19:48
ideas, let's make a club. We have the same
19:51
economic background. Let's call it a country club.
19:53
Or we believe in all these particular things about
19:56
Jesus so we'll make our church and will associate
19:59
voluntarily. Charles Taylor shows and others, many
20:03
others have showed, uh, since the 1960s has been
20:06
unraveling. And what's been unraveling for faith
20:09
is the church that was built up in that same mold.
20:13
That's what's in decline. So my question is, after
20:18
you get kind of break all that down is, well,
20:22
what's the next social imaginary to replace the
20:25
voluntary association? I'm not sure I know. Yeah,
20:28
but when I look at the world, I see a world that's
20:31
more movement and network based. Right. People
20:35
are, you know, Loren, you're in, you're in the,
20:38
uh, you're in the Mountain, Mountain west time
20:41
zone. And I'm in, I'm in the eastern time zone.
20:42
Right. But you and I, if we have a shared interest
20:46
in, um, GK Chesterton, we could have a community
20:49
where we, we get people across the country online
20:52
talking about GK Chesterton. And we don't even
20:54
have to be in each other's neighborhoods. Right.
20:55
>> Loren: Or maybe podcast is essentially that.
20:58
>> Jared Longbons: Right. Fandoms to cultures. We are able to move
21:04
across space and time with the digital world so we
21:07
don't have to be so local and focused the way the
21:10
voluntary association society grew up. Um, so I
21:15
see churches looking more movement oriented. Non
21:19
denominational churches are the ones that are
21:21
growing. And they look like movements. They don't
21:23
look like institutions. Right. I've even seen
21:26
churches like, um, uh, the plant other churches.
21:30
And they're not creating new denominations.
21:31
They're creating some network. Right. Franchises.
21:35
Right. But it is, but it feels like a movement. It
21:37
feels like we're sharing a shared value, not an
21:41
institutional structure. And then my question is,
21:44
if I only knew a Christian tradition that had the
21:49
identity of a movement. If I only knew one. And
21:53
when I said it in that talk, I thought I would get
21:54
a laugh in the crowd. But actually so many people
21:57
are removed from our own tradition that it is a
21:59
movement. It was never meant to be, uh, a denom.
22:03
So my point is, what is the heartbeat of that
22:05
movement? And um, I kind of imagine it is a
22:08
eucharistic or a communion centered movement. Now
22:13
that is controversial perhaps, I don't know. But I
22:16
know that the way most of my disciples, friends
22:18
talk about us, they say we're big tent. That means
22:22
we accept everybody. Well, if you're big tent and
22:25
that's your number one characteristic, then you
22:27
have no identity. Right?
22:29
>> Loren: Right.
22:29
>> Jared Longbons: Open table is a different identity than big tent.
22:33
Um, my independent Christian brothers and sisters,
22:36
they just haven't. They see themselves as
22:38
evangelical yet. They have gifts that are
22:41
different than what the Reformed tradition or Tim
22:43
Keller or these other groups are offering. And
22:46
they've lost some of those distinctive
22:48
characteristics. Now some Church of Christ folks
22:50
are there, but others are sectarian like we have
22:53
the way. I think all of those ways we've lost the
22:57
heart of what the tradition was about. Let's get
22:59
around this word and table business. Around the
23:02
table. And so what I wanted to develop was a more
23:05
fully fledged, um, social theology of what happens
23:09
at communion and Eucharist and see that that could
23:12
happen once more in fresh expressions. I think if
23:18
we ride that wave, we might be Planting churches
23:21
that don't have bricks and mortar. We might be um,
23:23
innovating older churches to be table or altar
23:27
centric. And that could be the way that we um,
23:30
kind of align our ministries and to different
23:33
focus and we could talk more about that. But we
23:35
should be planting churches in bars and
23:37
restaurants, at 12 step programs and backyard
23:40
neighborhoods. They may end up building buildings,
23:42
who knows? But they, but to be more of a
23:44
eucharistic community with the social teachings of
23:48
the Eucharist, I think that is something that
23:51
would be much more appealing to people who are
23:53
looking at institutions and seeing them as old and
23:55
dusty and uh, lacking life. So that's a huge try
23:59
to summarization of a big, big topic.
24:02
>> Loren: Well, there's so much stuff here. So let's try to
24:04
take this one at a time because like I want to
24:06
talk about all of it. Okay, um, first, like I want
24:09
to hear this. So you, you mentioned that the, the
24:12
Disciples of Christ again, the denomination were
24:14
both ordained in or I assume you ordained in this.
24:18
>> Jared Longbons: Yes. Yeah.
24:22
>> Loren: Socially structured is not socially structured for
24:24
growth. So first tell me about that because that's
24:27
intriguing right there.
24:28
>> Jared Longbons: Well, when you talk to people about church
24:31
governance structures, the Disciples have this
24:33
kind of like in my own people talk about, well,
24:36
uh, we're a congregational church. All that really
24:40
means is that the church can hire and fire its
24:43
pastor. It doesn't really mean anything else. But
24:47
over the years some flattened, uh, I would say
24:51
radical democrat democratic features have been put
24:53
involved. So in mid century Disciples world, you
24:55
have huge boards. They're untenable boards for
24:58
growth. So my church still has one. It's a fact.
25:02
You cannot grow when you have a hundred person
25:04
board.
25:05
>> Loren: I cannot, cannot.
25:08
>> Jared Longbons: And my church currently has a structure and it
25:11
doesn't function that way. And I really need us to
25:15
think about best practices from a board structure.
25:18
And what does that mean? Like you know, but, but
25:21
that old school thing is so present even when it's
25:25
been changed and uh, updated. Now the churches in
25:28
our denomination are growing, have all changed
25:30
their structures a long time ago. That's one
25:33
aspect. Yeah.
25:34
>> Loren: I can't remember where I heard this, but somewhere
25:36
I heard about this church that elders could be
25:40
like, um, lifetime elders. So even if they, even
25:45
after they've voted off or finished off their
25:47
term, they could still like come back as a
25:50
lifetime elder and vote.
25:51
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah. Yeah. Well what's the. Yeah, what's the
25:54
point? Like, yeah, every. Yeah. Someone once told
25:58
me like when they heard our structure they go, oh,
25:59
you don't have congregational Meetings. You just
26:01
have board meetings because it's the congregation.
26:02
Well, yeah, some way. But, um. Yeah, that's.
26:05
That's crazy to me. No, no. And the. The thing of
26:10
it is, is, like, I'll notice in my own region,
26:12
that's. That's the read the area of disciples I'm
26:15
in. Right. That. What we call it on the Commission
26:17
on Ministry, like, everyone's like. It's like a
26:21
game of double Dutch. You remember that jump rope
26:23
game? You don't know when to jump in. That's how
26:25
we all were always making decisions in leadership,
26:27
because we're all deferring to each other. Um, and
26:30
I just sang someone, let's you're in charge. Help
26:33
us make choices. Let's go. Oh, my goodness. So
26:36
it's structured for that. And then I would say
26:39
that the real weakness of our whole tradition is
26:42
that it lacked a strong ecclesiology at the
26:44
beginning. So because of that and because we
26:48
didn't have theologians, if we had theologians, we
26:51
would be able to say that we have a sacramental
26:54
view of Lord's Supper and Baptism, which made us
26:56
the only non Catholic church in our country that
27:00
had that view, which made us unique amongst all
27:02
non Catholic. I don't say Protestant, all non
27:04
Catholic churches. But because we don't have that
27:07
strong language at our foundation, we tend to
27:10
camouflage ourselves. Um, we've got the Disciples
27:13
who became mainline Protestants. We have the
27:15
evangelical stream, and we have the fundamental
27:17
stream. Whoever we're around, that's what we blend
27:18
into.
27:19
>> Loren: Yeah.
27:20
>> Jared Longbons: That's our great strength. Weakness. Uh, and
27:22
strength. The strength part is, um, that we can
27:25
find unity with other traditions and people.
27:29
>> Loren: Okay. This is such good stuff. At least I think
27:32
so. Hopefully our listeners will.
27:33
>> Jared Longbons: I, uh, hope so, too.
27:35
>> Loren: I want to ask. You didn't use the word here, but I
27:38
remember it from your. You know, this talk you're
27:41
talking about was on the podcast. You talked about
27:44
the Disciples centering on a practice, and then
27:48
you proposed. I think you propose if I remember
27:51
being a eucharistic centered movement. But, you
27:55
know, would you. I'm not sure how to even ask this
27:59
question. But, um, I'm thinking about, like, uh, I
28:04
attend a Methodist church right now. Like, full
28:06
disclosure, I attended a United Methodist church.
28:07
And I feel like in Disciples, we're like, hey,
28:11
we're open table. Like, that's our thing. And
28:14
then, like, I go to the Methodist Church and
28:15
they're like, yeah, we have an open table. That's
28:17
our thing. And so I'm like, what makes the
28:21
Disciples unique?
28:23
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah, Well, I don't think that's much of a thing.
28:26
Yeah.
28:26
>> Loren: Uh, so talk about that as, like, you say, like,
28:30
open tent or big tent, and open table has been
28:33
like our identity, but it's not really unique.
28:37
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah, open tables, that was a perspective that I
28:41
think was much more unique when it was initially
28:43
being, uh, practiced. Um, yeah. So I think that
28:48
practices are more primary to movements than
28:52
simply doctrinal ideas. And, um, actually, one of
28:57
my big pet peeves about our tradition is when
28:59
people say we're not doctrine, doctrinal or not,
29:01
dogmatic or not creed. We do absolutely have
29:05
beliefs. Um, if what you mean is you are not
29:10
exclusive or you are not, um, hardline. Okay.
29:14
That's different. Okay. Um, but nevertheless,
29:18
what's the fundamental shape of Christianity? Is
29:21
it having a, uh, checklist of all the right, like
29:24
cognitive ascent, propositional ideas, or is it a
29:28
pathway of following after the way of Jesus?
29:30
>> Loren: Yes, yes.
29:31
>> Jared Longbons: That's what it is. Yes. Ideas and actions go
29:35
together. So I'm saying let's gather around our
29:38
practice. The center heartbeat practice of our
29:41
tradition is thankfully, blessedly the center
29:46
heartbeat practice of the historic church, which
29:48
is communion, or I'd prefer to say Eucharist. So
29:52
I'm talking about being a eucharistic movement. I
29:55
draw a lot. Um, so when you start talking, well,
29:57
let's talk about what the Lord's Supper, Communion
29:59
is theologically, we get hung up on a Protestant
30:04
Catholic dialogue or disagreement. Right. Is there
30:06
real presence here? Is it at the sacrament, or is
30:09
the sacrament memorial? Or is it just presence
30:12
with the Christ? I mean, all this stuff. And I'm
30:16
saying we don't even have to go there to have the
30:18
sacramental mentality. Um, a. Ah. Catholic
30:22
theologian William Kavanaugh wrote a splendid
30:26
little book called Being Consumed Economics and
30:29
Christian Desire. The book's purpose is not to
30:33
critique the free market, but is simply to ask, is
30:35
the free market really free? Right.
30:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
30:37
>> Jared Longbons: And he's talking about consumption and the
30:40
consumerist, materialist society. We're told we're
30:43
materialistic and consumeristic, but really his
30:47
point is, is it true materialism if after you have
30:50
the thing in your shopping cart, you no longer
30:52
really want it? Like, that's the way. That's not
30:55
real material. Real materialism is Eucharist, when
30:57
we like lifting up elements, and it's truly. We
31:00
see it in some way as transformed or grace or
31:03
being meaningful. But in there, he has a
31:06
reflection on John 6, where he talks about. In
31:09
John's Eucharistic teaching, you have this
31:11
language about Whoever abides in me, I, uh, abide
31:14
in them and they abide in me. Whoever eats my body
31:17
and drinks my blood, I abide in. And all that he
31:21
says. And it just really packs a punch to me that
31:24
whoever consumes the body and blood of Christ,
31:27
whenever you consume the body of Christ, you are
31:29
more deeply yourself consumed into the body of
31:32
Christ, such that. Such that your fates are truly
31:36
bound together. So when you're eating and drinking
31:38
with others and you look them in the eye, it's not
31:41
just a sign that you have the same, like voter,
31:44
uh, registration ID or car, you know, voter
31:47
registration form or the same sports team, or that
31:50
you're from the same race. No, no, like you're,
31:51
you're saying like our fates now because of what
31:53
this means, our fates are bound together. Your
31:56
success is my success and my success. My failure
31:59
is your failure. We have solidarity because of
32:00
Christ. Now that has implications socially that
32:04
are transformative. So I talk about, and I've
32:07
written about it and I'd love to get it published,
32:09
but, um, I talked about how this applies to the
32:14
people who have cognitive decline, uh, holding the
32:17
memories of the faith, of people who've lost their
32:19
faith. They talk about taking that altar out into
32:22
the world and feeding the unhoused, like how that
32:24
becomes the shape of a radical community. And so
32:28
it's a spiritual, it's a transcendent, it's a
32:31
vertical thing that absolutely has imminent or
32:35
horizontal or justice ramifications. So, uh,
32:38
that's what I'm talking about.
32:40
>> Loren: Let's stay here because I think this is important,
32:43
because I think what you're talking about is the
32:46
slight but important distinction that I see, and I
32:50
think you're saying the same thing here within the
32:53
disciples, within mainline Protestantism, within
32:56
progressive Christianity writ large. And is that
32:59
these things that you're. All you're. You've just
33:02
named like these social justice efforts of, you
33:04
know, caring about the unhoused and, you know,
33:08
food security and all these important things,
33:11
they, they've been argumented or, um, emphasized
33:20
from like a, from a, I think, frankly, a secular
33:24
ideology or non Christian ideology rather than,
33:30
like you said, a firm theological foundation. And
33:34
I think what's happening, and tell me, if you tell
33:37
me your thoughts here, is that it quickly becomes
33:40
apparent, like I don't need the church to do. To
33:43
do justice.
33:45
>> Jared Longbons: So I think that's. I think that's a criticism
33:47
that, that Ryan Burge would say is like a lot of
33:50
stuff that you see in the world or the calls to
33:54
justice and ethics that the church does. They're
33:57
done elsewhere. You don't need the church for. And
33:59
maybe they're even done better. And I think that
34:02
may be true. Um, it's like so many things in
34:06
theology or church life. I feel a good metaphor is
34:11
thinking, um, about, um, a table with legs. Right.
34:15
Anytime you emphasize one of the legs, the table's
34:18
unsteady, it's too long. Or if you cut off, it's
34:20
too short. Um, and I feel, my sense is that so
34:24
much of the disciples world, whether or not you
34:28
call us all progressive Christianity is. That's
34:30
the other thing. I have weird feelings about
34:32
adjectives before that. Right. Any. Um, but what
34:37
we end up doing is, uh, focusing on something to
34:39
the exclusion of others. Um, so from a practical
34:42
perspective, Loren, I'd say that the disciples
34:44
churches I know that are growing. I actually know
34:46
some of these church pastors who are pretty
34:48
progressive politically and, uh, maybe even
34:51
theologically. Yet they sound like evangelicals
34:54
when you talk to them because they're not afraid
34:56
to tell people to come follow Jesus.
34:57
>> Loren: Yes.
34:58
>> Jared Longbons: But there's churches, garden variety. That
35:00
language is like, there's an allergy to it. Right,
35:03
right, right. So what I find is they're still
35:05
being. Using language that draws personal piety
35:09
and devotion.
35:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:10
>> Jared Longbons: So, yeah, I think they go together. I think they.
35:12
I think you. You hit it on the head. But it's
35:14
coming from our theological commitment of being
35:16
the people, quote unquote, of the table. But take
35:19
it for what it means. Um, in Disciples world, I
35:23
feel like in practice, we actually diminish
35:24
communion because we're so open to it. And we
35:27
almost get. From a practical perspective, uh, and
35:31
I won't name the name of the clergy person who's
35:33
well known, but he's joking with me because we
35:35
were at a big event together, Disciples event, and
35:38
communion could have been beautiful, but it was
35:41
sort of, um. Well, to try to make it have meaning.
35:47
We added stuff to it that made it sort of, to me,
35:50
uh, cheap looking. And he goes, ah, uh, yes. Uh,
35:54
he says arts and crafts, liturgy. And he says
35:57
that's the phrase he gives for a lot. I was like,
35:59
we don't need to try hard to make it more mean.
36:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:01
>> Jared Longbons: To me, this is like.
36:02
>> Loren: This is like the imminent transcendence framework
36:05
you talk about of, you know, Taylor, like, I come
36:10
through Taylor, through Nandra Root. But like,
36:13
this idea that, like, we've got him, we've got to,
36:15
like, make it special because, like, we've got to
36:18
make it more special because it's not like on Its
36:22
own powerful.
36:23
>> Jared Longbons: Right. Yeah, yeah. So I get to serve a disciples
36:27
congregation that's different than most because it
36:29
looks like a Catholic m. You know, a Gothic
36:31
cathedral. It's a fairly high church. We use, I
36:35
always say, modified Book of Common Prayer. If you
36:38
listen to the liturgy around the Lord's table, it
36:41
is real presence and beauty. I mean, it's. You
36:43
know, people don't realize it, but it is from.
36:45
Because from the Book of Common Prayer and all. It
36:48
is just the advice to every pastor or officiant at
36:51
the table is just say the words. Just say the
36:54
words. The words of institute. This is already
36:56
meaningful, it's already uplifted, and it's
36:58
central. But I think we bend over backwards trying
37:01
because, uh. Yeah, I'm not 100% certain I know all
37:05
the reasons why, but. Yeah.
37:07
>> Loren: Let me ask you about creeds. You talked about. We
37:11
have doctrine in this tradition. Like, I think one
37:14
of the favorite things to me about so many
37:18
denominational traditions is, like, there is a
37:22
rich depthness of, um, thought. So I do think,
37:29
like, in this tradition, especially the Disciples
37:32
of Christ, there is this sort of, like, I don't
37:35
know, like, uh, again, I was thinking about, like,
37:37
right now I'm reading up on Methodism, but I'm
37:40
like, what. Who. Who even is like the Disciples
37:43
theologians that I would go to? Like, yeah, maybe
37:46
that's just my ignorance, perhaps.
37:49
>> Jared Longbons: Um, well, unfortunately, we all should be reading
37:51
Joe Jones, but we've ignored him in our tradition.
37:53
And I only came to Joe Jones later in life. And,
37:57
um, you know, and I think that, you know, out
37:59
west, everyone's gotten into process thinkers and
38:02
such, but I think Joe Jones was where. Where.
38:04
Where it was at. That's just my hard, hard take,
38:06
if you will. But, yeah, yeah. So, you know, our
38:09
tradition likes to say, no creed but Christ,
38:11
which, you know, is a creed. And in the
38:13
essentials, unity, opinions, liberty. Okay, these
38:14
are creeds, Right. I was asked to come to the
38:17
Stone Campbell Journal Conference last year, the
38:19
anniversary year of the Nicene Creed, and be the
38:22
quote, unquote, disciples representative on the
38:26
idea of creed, the creed. And I laughed at that. I
38:29
was like, that's a funny thing to ask a disciple,
38:31
because I don't speak for anyone, you know,
38:33
because of that tradition. Right. But I'm like,
38:36
let me tell you what I really think. Look, but
38:39
Campbell and Stone, these founders, they were anti
38:42
creedal because what creeds were socially doing
38:44
in, you know, in the frontier of America, they
38:48
were used politically, divisively, ad nauseam, and
38:51
they were making New ones all the time. There's
38:53
writing, you can find it. I don't have it to cite
38:55
off the top of my head. They were cool with the
38:57
Apostles Creed because they felt like it was a
39:00
simple telling of the story. So in my opinion we
39:04
should be saying the Apostles Creed if nothing
39:06
else because it is a unifying, uh, unifies us with
39:10
other Christians. The Nicene Creed they questioned
39:14
because they didn't like the idea of applying a
39:16
metaphysics onto Scripture, which in and of itself
39:19
ironically is a metaphysics applied to scripture.
39:22
So I would say out ah, of their own intellectual,
39:26
um, um, inconsistency, their Scottish common sense
39:29
realism is a metaphysic that they're applying to
39:31
Scripture. Um, I would say now given everything
39:34
that we know in history, we should just readopt
39:36
the Nicene Creed in our worship services. It is
39:39
the thing that ties us back with the most ancient
39:42
uh, traditions in the church. Um, I get my people
39:47
to say the Apostles Creed periodically and uh,
39:50
some people will pull us out, hey, this is not who
39:53
we are. And I'm like, well it is though and our
39:55
founders weren't opposed to it. Uh, so you know,
39:58
I, I, I guess I, I've never really bought into the
40:01
whole no creed situation. I'm totally in favor of
40:04
why they were ultimately doing it though, which
40:06
is, you know, not dividing. Yeah.
40:09
>> Loren: So you're uh, I think it's an interesting point
40:12
and I want to emphasize it if I'm understanding
40:13
you correctly, because you're making the point
40:15
that the, the resistance to creeds was because of
40:19
how they're being utilized sociologically and so
40:24
forth.
40:24
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah, yeah, that's primarily it. Yeah, yeah. I
40:29
think there was a biblicism to some of our
40:31
founders that were like, well, we don't want to so
40:33
like language of homoousius and homo, same stuff
40:36
that stuff was stuff that did freak them out. Um,
40:39
but I think given uh, where we have developed and
40:43
come to, I think we need to make peace with it.
40:45
>> Loren: So I'm thinking of my co host Martha Tutornick,
40:48
who's Anglican and you know, we've talked about,
40:50
in a past episode we did around, sort of around
40:53
this discussion within the disciples. You know,
40:56
she talked about how, you know, in an Anglican or
40:59
Episcopal church, like they, they say those creeds
41:02
regularly and even if, even if you're not like
41:05
feeling like oh, I believe this and that, it has a
41:09
way of holding you, informing you. Do you think
41:13
like
41:16
>> Jared Longbons: I think you've,
41:17
>> Loren: you've mentioned already how like this disciples
41:20
tradition like is if I heard You Right?
41:23
>> Jared Longbons: Kind of.
41:23
>> Loren: Not widely. It's not very firm. If I'm hearing you
41:27
correctly. Do you think, like, in a perfect world,
41:30
obviously we can't go and change the past, and you
41:33
and I do not have enough power within our
41:35
tradition, uh, at least speaking for myself, to
41:39
change things. But do you think, I mean, again,
41:42
I'm not saying like creeds or doctrine changes
41:45
everything or is the ultimate, but I think it does
41:48
have way of offering some, some built environment
41:52
or moral formation.
41:54
>> Jared Longbons: Does that make sense? Right. Yeah. I mean, uh,
41:57
where did we get the idea in American Christianity
42:00
that people have to believe before they can
42:03
practice a religion? Practicing the religion is
42:06
often your way to believe.
42:07
>> Loren: Yes.
42:08
>> Jared Longbons: So practice is a, you know, and practice in
42:11
cognitive ascent. These things work together.
42:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:14
>> Jared Longbons: So I think that sometimes even confessional
42:16
statements are part of that. Um, I think that
42:20
we've done our best to become all things to all
42:22
people, I. E. You know, big tent. That we lose our
42:25
distinctive, uh, flavor and gifts that we truly
42:28
bring to the broader family of Christianity, for
42:31
sure, in our tradition. So that leaves the
42:34
independent churches looking for evangelical
42:37
friends to say, oh, we're like them. And it leaves
42:39
the Church of Christ folks in the same place.
42:41
Well, we do the same thing with the more mainline,
42:46
a more progressive stance.
42:47
>> Loren: Right.
42:48
>> Jared Longbons: Um, yet, listen, I referenced issues that happened
42:53
in Minnesota last week. I've referenced major
42:56
things that happen. But I also know that, um, I
43:01
got people coming to my church every Sunday. Some
43:04
are going through a divorce, some are trying to
43:06
overcome, um, a disease. Some have lost a loved
43:10
one. Some people are not sure they believe today.
43:13
You know, there's. It's not only reducible to the
43:16
news headlines. Right. We have to talk about other
43:20
things too. And so, but that's, that's a pastoral
43:23
care issue, I think.
43:24
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I'm. Boy, there's. There's so much
43:31
going in my head that I want to ask about. Um, how
43:37
do you think? Like, I think let's do this before.
43:42
Let's end this section with this. Talk more about
43:46
this idea of the eucharistic centered movement.
43:51
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah. Um, I'll tell you, um, more from an
43:55
experience. Uh, back. The church I served before
43:58
coming to Peachtree Christian in Atlanta was a
44:01
small Church of Christ in Bloomington, Illinois.
44:03
And it was, um, you know, I was in seminary, and
44:07
because of the way it was growing, I pulled
44:10
together, um, a lot of young adults were coming
44:13
around my ministry there. And so he developed just
44:16
this full throated young adult, whatever that
44:19
means, ministry. And because of my academic
44:22
interest and starting Like a doctoral program and
44:25
things. I had some PhD students from Theology and
44:28
philosophy. I had other academic. And we were, you
44:31
know, it's a campus town, so there's like a lot of
44:32
academically minded people, right? Yeah. We also
44:35
had people with certain, um, developmental and
44:38
cognitive disabilities coming as well. So what we
44:41
ended up doing was on Sunday nights gathering in
44:44
my home for a potluck and we just bring food. And
44:47
since it was young adults, sometimes I had to
44:49
spring for pizza because sometimes they bring you
44:51
like a half bag of chips, but other times there
44:53
would be a lot of stuff. And what ended up, I
44:56
mean, it started growing without even trying to
44:58
grow. I even had people knocking on my door. And
45:01
I'd open the door and they'd say, is this the, is
45:03
this the Bible study that they heard about? So the
45:06
uh, height, we had about like 80 people coming
45:08
through and we had to move it to a different
45:09
location. But we would, what, we just come with
45:11
our potluck. We'd have some theological and
45:14
biblical discussions. So sometimes it started
45:16
straight from scripture, sometimes it was a topic
45:18
that got us into scripture and we went relatively
45:22
deep. Yet I believe people had such care for each
45:25
other. People who couldn't go there, we met them
45:27
where they were and then we ended the night with
45:31
wine, uh, that was in a decanter on the table, and
45:33
bread. And we'd stand in a big circle and we would
45:36
break and share. And we'd always talk about how,
45:40
uh, this gift of Christ, God is healing the
45:45
brokenness of the world with the life of Christ.
45:46
Right. We put it in all sorts of theological
45:49
language, but we'd always say when we eat and
45:52
drink in honor of Christ, tonight we are, uh,
45:55
we're eating in honor of the fact that Christ is
45:57
making us new with each other as well and that our
45:59
fates are bound together. We look each other in
46:01
the eye and we'd say that our, you know, we are,
46:04
you know, your success is mine and that kind of
46:06
thing. We are more intimately brought into the
46:09
life of church universal through this one little
46:11
community. And then we would share and then that
46:14
life would spill over into the evening until like
46:17
one or two in the morning because we were all
46:19
young, right? And, and that was this most life
46:22
giving thing that, that, that I had experienced as
46:25
a church, as a church community. Eventually this
46:28
group started having enormous church community,
46:30
uh, gardens. And the food was, was, was uh, taken
46:33
in and given out to those in need. We would have
46:36
huge, we had chefs. So we make these huge meals
46:39
and share it with the neighborhood. It was
46:40
eucharistic. Right. And it was all done in that.
46:43
In that mindset. And we had. We even had freegans,
46:46
people who would go dumpster diving. And they
46:48
didn't like to buy. They liked to swap things.
46:50
Well, they would do their best to make that
46:52
activity eucharistic. Right. And so it, like,
46:55
someone ended up. Because this ministry got so
46:57
big, someone actually gave me a house. They just
46:58
said, here, here's a house. It's between two
47:00
university campuses. Yeah, you can use it. So we
47:03
had living room concerts there, we had art shows
47:06
there. We did clothing drives there, and we became
47:08
a center. And it was all based around the first.
47:11
Around that altar right out into the world. And
47:14
I'm saying that that kind of activity drove that
47:18
community. And theoretically, it's supposed to
47:22
drive every disciples congregation. Yeah, I don't
47:24
think it does. So I think in current churches,
47:28
they need to reimagine it spiritually,
47:30
theologically, and socially, and then reimagine
47:34
their ministries, how they flow out from there. We
47:36
like to talk about it now as taking the altar out
47:38
onto the streets into the world. And then as we
47:42
are thinking about how we plant and expand to new
47:45
churches and new communities, rethinking about how
47:48
we form, if we can make it more of a meal centric.
47:51
And this is not new. I mean, there's restaurant
47:53
churches, pub churches. These things happen all
47:55
the time. But I don't know if they start with the
48:00
social teaching of the Eucharist. I think that is
48:03
where the secret sauce is for this, because it
48:06
makes people have the solidarity of commitment.
48:10
And, uh, I'm happy to say that all the people that
48:12
were part of that community, so many of them gone
48:14
to other places around the country now, and
48:16
they've taken that spirit with them. Um, but, you
48:19
know, it's, um. It doesn't look like having a
48:23
board and bylaws and four walls and budget
48:26
meetings. I mean, it may grow into those things,
48:29
but I think the start somewhere. Right?
48:32
>> Loren: So this is good stuff. This is good stuff. Well,
48:35
let's take a quick break and we'll move on to some
48:38
closing questions. We're back with Reverend or is
48:42
it Reverend Doctor.
48:42
>> Jared Longbons: I always get this wrong. Reverend Doctor. Yeah.
48:46
>> Loren: Reverend Doctor, Jared Longbond. You know, for the
48:48
longest time, I. The doctor or the reverend order,
48:52
depending on if you had a demon or PhD. Um, but
48:56
I've been told it does not matter.
48:58
>> Jared Longbons: I think it's the ecclesial first. God goes first
49:01
is what I always think.
49:02
>> Loren: So I like that. I like that. Um, all right, some
49:05
closing questions. We always tell folks you can
49:07
take these as seriously or not as you'd like to,
49:10
but, uh, if you're pope for a day, or maybe you
49:16
can enter this again if you want to, like if you
49:19
were in charge of the disciples of Christ for day,
49:21
even though that's totally antithetical to what
49:23
we've just been talking about.
49:25
>> Jared Longbons: If I were, if I were Pope for a day, I might come
49:28
out and ask everyone to just, um, to take a hard
49:32
line against, um, against social media or
49:35
something like that. Or take like, like, I think,
49:38
I think that we need to seriously restructure,
49:42
rebuild and reorient our relationship to the
49:44
digital landscape in general.
49:47
>> Loren: Yeah, that'll preach. Hold on, I gotta write that
49:51
down.
49:56
>> Jared Longbons: It is a difficulty even, you know, for those of us
49:59
who say those kinds of things. Right. Uh, so.
50:02
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, well, that's good. That's
50:08
good. Uh, what do you think, uh, a theologian or
50:12
historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or
50:15
bring back to life?
50:17
>> Jared Longbons: Uh, that's hard. I mean, like, like all of them.
50:19
Like, you know, there's this, like, there's
50:22
different people that are fascinating to me. I
50:24
named my son Maximus after Saint Maximus the
50:26
confessor of the seventh century. Yeah, he, uh,
50:29
wrote. I wrote part of my PhD with his influence
50:31
because of how he understood. Um, he's one.
50:35
Someone called him the most. The world.
50:37
>> Loren: The world.
50:37
>> Jared Longbons: The most world affirming theologian, like in terms
50:39
of creation. And he stood up for Chalcedon and
50:43
Chalcedon, uh, and he was killed for it. Um, I'd
50:46
love to talk to St. Patrick to know about his
50:48
missionary, uh, what it was really like in
50:50
Ireland. I'd love to talk about Julian of Norwich
50:53
and what did she see? You know, so many. I, I
50:55
don't know if I have a good one. Um, yeah, so
50:58
many.
50:58
>> Loren: That's good. What do you think history will
51:00
remember from our current time and place?
51:03
>> Jared Longbons: I think it'll think we were mad. Um, I think that
51:07
we have, um, hopefully we get through this
51:11
digital, uh, malaise that we are in and chaos.
51:14
Hopefully we recenter. But I fear as though, um,
51:18
we are exchanging the very gifts of our humanity,
51:22
um, and handing it over so easily. So we're
51:24
disconnecting and disengaging from each other. And
51:28
I think that if there's a future humanity, they'll
51:30
look back and say, wow, we really were in danger
51:32
there. Um, I think same thing with artificial
51:35
intelligence. The fact that I don't think we're
51:39
able to use things as right and proper tools. I
51:42
think people will hand over what is human about
51:45
us. And we might learn some hard lessons if we get
51:48
through where we're at. So, yeah, we were mad.
51:52
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. That's a very concise and chilling way
51:58
of saying it. Let me ask this, uh, because I was
52:02
going to answer or ask it previously. What are
52:06
your hopes for the future of the Disciples? For
52:10
the mainline?
52:11
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah. I don't know. Um, I honestly don't know if I
52:14
care about a mainline continuing. Uh, because in
52:17
some way, what it really meant was it meant that
52:20
in the Voluntary Association Society we had, the
52:24
church had become. Okay. The church was just like
52:26
Kiwanis club or country club is what you did. And
52:29
so it's a form of Constantinianism to some degree.
52:33
Like, it just is. Um, it's like a, a big sheet put
52:39
over a top, you know, of Americanism. And I'm not
52:41
sure that real faith is there. So in the great, in
52:43
the great decline that we're seeing, I think we're
52:45
going to see a culling away of, of, of, of, of
52:47
less faith for real faith.
52:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:49
>> Jared Longbons: Um, you know, I'd love to see. I, I, I'd love the
52:53
Disciples, uh, every time. I honestly, I don't
52:56
know, man. I, I think I believe in a lot that our
52:59
tradition offers such that I'm still here.
53:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
53:02
>> Jared Longbons: M and I really, really have a strong conviction
53:06
that I have some good ideas. But anytime I'm in
53:09
those, those circles and environments, they're not
53:11
heard. So, um, I'm not sure, you know, I'm not
53:15
sure that, you know, there's a lot of, lot of
53:17
hope. I mean, I think the best if we are to do our
53:20
job, I think we will continue to gain our
53:25
inspiration from the New Testament witness of the
53:27
church and draw people together in unity. But I
53:29
think we'd be distinctive. We need to become more
53:31
distinctive in how we think about that and less
53:33
just trying to be like everyone. Um, so, you know.
53:39
>> Loren: Yeah, I feel like this, the distinctiveness. I'm
53:43
writing that down because I think that's something
53:48
when I think about, like, if I were pope for day
53:52
of the mainline or mainline denominations, like, I
53:55
would say, like, lean into your distinctiveness.
53:58
Because I do think that's something that there is
54:03
this tendency within so many mainline traditions
54:05
of, like, oh, let's just, like, let's just be like
54:08
everybody else.
54:10
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah.
54:10
>> Loren: Or so. Yeah. I don't, I'm curious what that's
54:13
about, but I appreciate, um, that sentiment.
54:19
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah. I, uh, Listen, if I were to say anything to
54:22
the disciples. I mean, I would tell the disciples
54:24
they need to become this eucharistic movement once
54:26
more. But I'd also tell them, don't forget, part
54:29
of our DNA is the evangelical spirit. I mean,
54:31
there's part of. And, you know, for better, for
54:34
worse, what evangelicalism has become is not the
54:36
point. Yeah, but there is this great passion for
54:41
sharing the gospel, you know, and sometimes I feel
54:44
like we're ashamed of that.
54:45
>> Loren: Yeah, well, that's why I've started using the term
54:48
to describe myself as a lowercase E evangelical.
54:53
In the spirit of, uh, Stone and Wesley and sort of
54:58
folks.
54:59
>> Jared Longbons: Yeah, yeah, totally. I get that.
55:01
>> Loren: Well, this has been, uh, a great conversation.
55:05
I've really appreciated your time and ideas here.
55:09
Share how people can connect with you. I'll make
55:11
sure to link the podcast. Your podcast. Anything
55:14
else you want to say for folks if they can connect
55:17
with you?
55:17
>> Jared Longbons: Well, right now it's just. Peachtree.org is the
55:20
website of our church, and you can find a lot of
55:22
sermons and talks and things on there. I know in
55:25
the process of trying to get. I, uh, have two
55:27
projects I'm trying to get published, so I wish
55:29
they were. Uh, an agreement was made so I could
55:32
tell you about it. And because of that, I'm also
55:34
trying to build a website so I can get some of my
55:36
things out there. But just Visit me@peachtree.org
55:40
Hit me up on social media. Jared Longbonds. I'm
55:42
the only one, as far as I know, in the world. It's
55:44
such a unique name. Um, so you can email me or
55:48
find me pretty easily.
55:49
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Really have
55:51
appreciated this conversation. Uh, we always leave
55:54
folks with the word of peace, so may God's peace
55:56
>> Jared Longbons: be with you and also with you.
56:00
>> Loren: All right, we're done.
56:02
>> Jared Longbons: Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. Thanks for
56:05
joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
56:08
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
56:10
Media.
56:11
>> Loren: We love to hear from our listeners
56:13
>> Jared Longbons: with questions, comments, and ideas for future
56:15
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
56:18
future-christian.com and
56:20
>> Loren: find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
56:23
page to get
56:24
>> Jared Longbons: in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
56:27
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
56:29
review. It really helps us get this out to more
56:32
people. Thanks and go in peace.