Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Stolen in Plain Sight: Chris Crowther | Alyce and Janet Fogarty

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Stolen in Plain Sight: Chris Crowther | Alyce and Janet Fogarty · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appote production.
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Speaker 2: This podcast contains discussion of child sexual assault and psychological trauma.
0:15
Speaker 2: It's not recommended for young people and listener discretion is advised.
0:24
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
0:26
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Christopher Michael Crowther is a name that will
0:30
Speaker 2: live on in infamy.
0:33
Speaker 1: Pedophile jailed for sixteen years. Christopher Michael Crowther's nineteen ninety
0:37
Speaker 1: two conviction for stalking and attacking six young children.
0:40
Speaker 2: Man faces seventy one six charges, including crimes from.
0:44
Speaker 1: As early as nineteen seventy two. The police described him
0:47
Speaker 1: as a very twisted and dangerous personality.
0:52
Speaker 2: He died in two thousand and three at the age
0:55
Speaker 2: of just fifty five, not a moment too soon for
0:58
Speaker 2: possibly Australia's worst child stealer and sexual assailant. He had
1:03
Speaker 2: his own children himself, but Crowther stalked and molested the
1:07
Speaker 2: children of other Melbourne families from the early nineteen seventies
1:11
Speaker 2: up until his death from natural causes. A judge once
1:16
Speaker 2: described him as one of a small category of pedophiles
1:19
Speaker 2: who expressed little or no remorse, denied guilt when confronted,
1:23
Speaker 2: and refused to seek treatment. In fact, He relished the
1:27
Speaker 2: publicity around his offending, appearing voluntarily on sixty Minutes in
1:32
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three to explain how easy it was to
1:35
Speaker 2: hunt and snatch children off the street. What a low
1:39
Speaker 2: point for journalism that was giving such a man a platform.
1:43
Speaker 2: He claimed to be reformed, but soon resumed his disgusting obsession.
1:47
Speaker 2: He served several long prison stretches, but always returned to
1:52
Speaker 2: his evil ways. We will never know how many children
1:55
Speaker 2: suffered at the hands of this vile creature. In January
1:59
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, one family had a lucky, almost miraculous
2:04
Speaker 2: escape from Crowther when three year old Elise Foggerty wanted
2:08
Speaker 2: out of her back gate and straight into the arms
2:10
Speaker 2: of the predator. Alise and her mother, Janet have agreed
2:14
Speaker 2: to tell that story and Welcome to the Real Crime studio, ladies.
2:18
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you.
2:20
Speaker 2: Alise. You didn't know about this story until you How
2:23
Speaker 2: old were you when mom finally told you?
2:25
Speaker 1: Oh?
2:26
Speaker 3: I would have been twenty seven.
2:30
Speaker 2: Ish, ma'am? Why did you keep it secret for so long?
2:35
Speaker 4: That's the most horrendous day I think I've ever had.
2:42
Speaker 4: I was so lucky that day that she was being
2:45
Speaker 4: looked after even though she was running the streets and
2:48
Speaker 4: he was after her, she was too young to remember anything.
2:57
Speaker 4: And because it's been a horrendous thing for me, even
3:02
Speaker 4: though she's okay, I didn't want to her to have
3:06
Speaker 4: thoughts of that day. I didn't want her to suffer.
3:11
Speaker 4: But you've had thoughts of that day ever since, ever since.
3:15
Speaker 4: What comes to mind when you think about that day?
3:18
Speaker 4: The crowd almost got a lease, Oh so so close.
3:23
Speaker 4: I remember, I just come home from hospital with Jaden,
3:27
Speaker 4: my son. He'd been since he was born in intensive
3:32
Speaker 4: care because he had a wet lung. So we'd only
3:34
Speaker 4: been home a couple of weeks. Alas was in the
3:39
Speaker 4: backyard playing with our friend's dog, who we were minding,
3:42
Speaker 4: and I was feeding Jack in the land room. So
3:46
Speaker 4: she was from here, probably twice away from you are
3:49
Speaker 4: from me, just a few meters in the backyard, and
3:52
Speaker 4: I could had this little blow up. She was giggling, laughing.
3:55
Speaker 4: Then the dog was playing with her. They were happy
3:57
Speaker 4: as larry. And then you know, I got distracted by
4:00
Speaker 4: Jack because he's only four weeks old then, and it
4:05
Speaker 4: was really quiet in the backyard, so move my head
4:10
Speaker 4: to have a look. So quiet, we'll get there with
4:14
Speaker 4: jack no lease, no dog, and the gate's open, but
4:19
Speaker 4: the gate had a high lock. So my thought is
4:23
Speaker 4: the dogs jumped from the back step, off the porch,
4:26
Speaker 4: over the fence, and she's got a chair and climbed up.
4:30
Speaker 4: But I don't remember exactly how she got out, but
4:34
Speaker 4: the lock was high on the gate, so for her
4:36
Speaker 4: to get out, she would have had to climb up.
4:39
Speaker 2: I'm sure any parent who's been in that situation, we've
4:42
Speaker 2: people with kids. When you can't see your child, your
4:45
Speaker 2: heart just misses more than one beat.
4:48
Speaker 4: Well, poor Jackie got just thrown into the cot and
4:52
Speaker 4: I just took off. I had no shoes on, nothing.
4:55
Speaker 4: It was a stinking hot day and we used to
4:57
Speaker 4: go to the park a lot, and I knew she
4:59
Speaker 4: would know the way to the park, so I went
5:03
Speaker 4: that way. The park was full of pearance people and
5:06
Speaker 4: I'm just screaming at everybody. Have you seen her?
5:08
Speaker 2: Have you seen her?
5:09
Speaker 4: She's got bathers on because she was in the pool,
5:11
Speaker 4: so she just aid this little one piece and everybody's
5:16
Speaker 4: just sort of looking at me like I was a
5:17
Speaker 4: mad woman, you know, running through the park. I couldn't
5:20
Speaker 4: find her there, so I'm heading back home again. And
5:24
Speaker 4: these two young kids, a girl and a boy, the
5:26
Speaker 4: brother and sister on their pushbikes, saw me and said,
5:30
Speaker 4: are you okay? Can we help you now? They would
5:33
Speaker 4: have been thirteen ten around that age, brother and sister,
5:38
Speaker 4: And so I quickly said, I've lost my little girl.
5:40
Speaker 4: I can't find If you see her, can you just
5:43
Speaker 4: grab her? You know? They said yeah, you said? They said,
5:46
Speaker 4: well go home, we'll get mum. She's got a car.
5:49
Speaker 4: I said, okay, and I just ran. I kept running
5:51
Speaker 4: and calling her name, no sign of a The fear
5:56
Speaker 4: you feel is unbelievable, but I never thought anything bad.
6:03
Speaker 2: I just thought she was lost. Anyway.
6:06
Speaker 4: All of a sudden, this lady pulls up in this
6:07
Speaker 4: car and she goes, oh, you're looking for your door.
6:09
Speaker 4: I go yes, She goes, jump in quicker in the car.
6:13
Speaker 4: So we're driving all around the streets looking and where
6:17
Speaker 4: we lived in the mould and at the back of
6:18
Speaker 4: the houses there's lane ways. They must have been for
6:21
Speaker 4: the old trucks or whatever something to do with the
6:24
Speaker 4: housing in those days. So every couple of blocks there's
6:28
Speaker 4: another lane way, and we're driving along and she's just
6:33
Speaker 4: going slow and I'm just peering in every garden and
6:35
Speaker 4: everywhere you could think of. And after about I suppose
6:41
Speaker 4: while I was running around for like fifteen minutes before
6:43
Speaker 4: and the lady picked me up, so it would have
6:45
Speaker 4: been another ten to fifteen minutes after that, we come
6:48
Speaker 4: to this lane may and there's this fella leaning up
6:52
Speaker 4: against the fence reading a newspaper, and I thought, how odd,
6:56
Speaker 4: And right next to it was a lane way. And
6:59
Speaker 4: as I've looked up the lane way and she's still driving,
7:02
Speaker 4: I've gone stop. First off, I saw her too, kids
7:06
Speaker 4: on their pushbikes, So the lady stops her car and
7:11
Speaker 4: I just remember the gentleman reading the newspaper, going like
7:15
Speaker 4: what this at me? So I'm running up the lane
7:18
Speaker 4: way and as I'm running a laneway, he came out
7:22
Speaker 4: of this like little alcove where you must have had
7:24
Speaker 4: a drive through into the backyard of the house and
7:29
Speaker 4: there's a lease, no bathers and him, and he's seen
7:35
Speaker 4: me coming and he's looked at me, looked down at
7:41
Speaker 4: a lease, watched the kids, and then took off in
7:45
Speaker 4: the other direction up the laneway. So I've just grabbed
7:49
Speaker 4: a lease. The lady has driven us home got in
7:52
Speaker 4: the front door at home, and I swear it must
7:56
Speaker 4: have been like two minutes later there's a knock at
7:59
Speaker 4: the front door, and it was a lady and a
8:02
Speaker 4: gentleman police officer from the rape squad.
8:07
Speaker 5: Because little did you know that Crowther was with her
8:13
Speaker 5: head by the elbowe was letting her away, sorry, And
8:20
Speaker 5: little did I know that the police had been following
8:23
Speaker 5: him for about three weeks, waiting for this opportunity for
8:27
Speaker 5: him to do the wrong thing again.
8:31
Speaker 4: And little did I know that she was perfectly foreign,
8:35
Speaker 4: because there was policeman all over the back fences watching him,
8:39
Speaker 4: and the man read in his newspaper was a policeman.
8:43
Speaker 2: But you don't know, you know.
8:45
Speaker 4: So I feel a bit guilty that I probably spoiled
8:50
Speaker 4: a bit for them that day.
8:51
Speaker 2: But look how lucky she was, because when Alice got
8:56
Speaker 2: in touch with me, she said that her wandering out
9:00
Speaker 2: into the lane like that was like a lottery moment. Oh. Absolute.
9:03
Speaker 2: Crowther and the police had been working on him for
9:08
Speaker 2: some time. He'd been stalking kids around schools, around opportunity
9:12
Speaker 2: that he had, but the lease never did so when
9:16
Speaker 2: he was disturbed. He's bold as brass, he's gone up
9:20
Speaker 2: to the police officers as well, that's right, and said,
9:22
Speaker 2: you're looking for the chart he's in here. Yeah, yep,
9:26
Speaker 2: exactly what he did.
9:28
Speaker 4: But they actually saw him grab her by the elbow
9:31
Speaker 4: to lead her away. So lucky was the kids that
9:36
Speaker 4: I suppose first disturbed him because they came from that
9:39
Speaker 4: way and I came from that way. So he was
9:41
Speaker 4: cornered in the middle of this lane room.
9:43
Speaker 2: I had to go, you know, and you'd have to
9:45
Speaker 2: say that those kids on the bicycles.
9:48
Speaker 4: God, I wish I knew who they were. I never
9:49
Speaker 4: really thanked them or their mum. So I hear this.
9:54
Speaker 2: I think of you a lot. Thank you. I'm sure
9:57
Speaker 2: you're out there your adults now, probably with your own kids.
10:00
Speaker 2: Get in touch with me email Adam shadywriter at gmail
10:03
Speaker 2: dot com. Let's talk to you about that of the heroism,
10:06
Speaker 2: how you changed the course not only of Elisa's life
10:09
Speaker 2: but Janet's and also brought a heenous monster to justice.
10:13
Speaker 2: It's so good those kids now, it took twenty four
10:17
Speaker 2: years for you to discover what happened that day. Elise
10:22
Speaker 2: recret the circumstances of that.
10:25
Speaker 3: My name had passed away and mum had moved in
10:28
Speaker 3: with us for a few years. So I was sorting
10:30
Speaker 3: through old boxes and photos and things like that, and
10:33
Speaker 3: I came across this newspaper article that had been cut
10:36
Speaker 3: out of the newspaper, and I said to Mum, what's
10:39
Speaker 3: this all about? And then she sat down and she
10:42
Speaker 3: sort of said, all right, for you're old enough now
10:45
Speaker 3: I can tell you. And yeah, she's went through the
10:48
Speaker 3: story with me, and I was just amazed. I don't
10:51
Speaker 3: remember any of it, obviously, but obviously it weighs have
10:54
Speaker 3: you on mum's mind.
10:56
Speaker 1: Still.
10:58
Speaker 2: We're Facebook friends now since she contacted me, which is lovely.
11:01
Speaker 2: And I was looking through your photographs and your married
11:05
Speaker 2: with your own kids now. Life looks really happy, and
11:09
Speaker 2: you seem very grateful for your life, and you wonder
11:12
Speaker 2: how different it might have been were it not for
11:14
Speaker 2: those kids on the bicycle and the lady and the
11:17
Speaker 2: police officers as well.
11:19
Speaker 4: Very very lucky someone was looking after it that day.
11:24
Speaker 2: Jennet, you're still dealing with that ooh emotion of that. Yeah,
11:28
Speaker 2: why what's the feeling you have now talking about it?
11:32
Speaker 2: I think it's the what ifs, you know. I think
11:36
Speaker 2: I'm a reasonably good MoMA. I thought she was safe
11:38
Speaker 2: in the backyard. It can happen so easily, and just
11:41
Speaker 2: the fear I had that day, have not been able
11:43
Speaker 2: to find of like for twenty to thirty minutes, she
11:46
Speaker 2: was gone, no sign of her anywhere, And just when
11:53
Speaker 2: we went to court for it, there's all these angry dads.
11:59
Speaker 2: That's what I remember most about the court, the angry dads.
12:04
Speaker 2: And something was said in the courtroom that led him off,
12:07
Speaker 2: something was said that shouldn't have been said, and he
12:11
Speaker 2: actually walked out of the courtroom that day. Well, these dads,
12:15
Speaker 2: they were just saying, oh, give us five minutes with him,
12:17
Speaker 2: give us five minutes, you know. And I mean they
12:19
Speaker 2: went through a lot more than what I went through.
12:22
Speaker 2: So just very very lucky that day because he faced
12:26
Speaker 2: seventy one counts of child molestic through that arrest, and
12:32
Speaker 2: yet he ends up walking free, free on a technicality. Yes,
12:36
Speaker 2: to offend again, no doubt. How did that make you feel?
12:41
Speaker 2: I was angry too.
12:43
Speaker 4: I mean, how can something so stupid let men like
12:48
Speaker 4: him go free again and to do it over and
12:52
Speaker 4: over and over again again.
12:54
Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, Jannet, he did walk on that occasion,
12:56
Speaker 2: but he wasn't strictly free because there was a series
12:59
Speaker 2: of aborted trials. In that case, some of the accounts
13:02
Speaker 2: were dropped, the original dozens and dozens of charges, and
13:06
Speaker 2: he was sentenced to sixteen years and two months imprisonment
13:09
Speaker 2: with non parol of thirteen years. But after the long
13:12
Speaker 2: appeal process that was whittled down, you wouldn't believe it
13:15
Speaker 2: down to just twenty months on two counts serve concurrently
13:20
Speaker 2: with a non parole period of just twelve months. Absolutely outrageous,
13:26
Speaker 2: But that's why the court moved sometimes in very mysterious ways.
13:31
Speaker 2: He got on sixty minutes there and he said that
13:33
Speaker 2: it's so easy. Yes, So I just drive along in
13:37
Speaker 2: my vehicle. I see a child, kin cruel, I beckon
13:40
Speaker 2: them to my vehicle and I get them in there,
13:43
Speaker 2: and it's as easy as there's easy. He sat there,
13:47
Speaker 2: unashamed of his disgusting perversions, stealing children and glorying in it.
13:54
Speaker 2: And he had a child of his own, he did.
13:58
Speaker 2: And you've got children of your own now at least. Yeah,
14:01
Speaker 2: how does that sit with you now? When you look
14:03
Speaker 2: at your children there, vulnerable, innocent growing up. They're our
14:06
Speaker 2: teen in their teens. I believe. What impact has they
14:09
Speaker 2: had on your your way of dealing with them as
14:12
Speaker 2: a mother?
14:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, definitely. I think it was a different time
14:17
Speaker 3: when I grew up as well. Kids were out on
14:19
Speaker 3: the street a lot more definitely after knowing that story,
14:22
Speaker 3: more vigilant and aware, especially with sleepovers and things like
14:26
Speaker 3: that with the kids, always mindful.
14:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:30
Speaker 3: I just think I can't imagine what Mum went through
14:34
Speaker 3: and how I would have reacted in that situation. And
14:37
Speaker 3: I think it's just so amazing that it shows that
14:39
Speaker 3: there's good people that helped mum that day. And I
14:44
Speaker 3: feel really sad, and I think Mum has that guilt
14:48
Speaker 3: too for the other families. Yep.
14:52
Speaker 2: How have you tried to deal with that with your
14:54
Speaker 2: mum since you were twenty seven? It's a while ago,
14:57
Speaker 2: not that long ago, but you've helped her to try
14:59
Speaker 2: to understand her emotions, I guess, and try to move
15:02
Speaker 2: past it. But see she's still very emotional about it. Yeah,
15:06
Speaker 2: he is.
15:07
Speaker 3: We talk about it and we've tried to do some
15:09
Speaker 3: research to find out is he still alive passed away? Yeah,
15:13
Speaker 3: try to do a bit of research. I was supposed
15:15
Speaker 3: to find out whatever happened to him. Because we didn't
15:17
Speaker 3: have that closure either, Mum, sort of. You can't really
15:23
Speaker 3: find much on him, I thought, I'm not a jo yeah,
15:27
Speaker 3: to find out what happened.
15:29
Speaker 2: So because he died in two thousand and three at
15:32
Speaker 2: the age of fifty five from a heart attack natural causes,
15:36
Speaker 2: I think that was a mercy for him, really, and
15:38
Speaker 2: I think the fact that he didn't live to a
15:41
Speaker 2: ripe old age. His father and grandfather also died young
15:44
Speaker 2: in their forties from heart conditions, and so I'm not
15:48
Speaker 2: a big believer in God, but you think some force
15:51
Speaker 2: snatched him up before he could continue doing what he
15:53
Speaker 2: was doing exactly in a bit earlier. How did your
15:59
Speaker 2: life change after that in your family, Janet.
16:05
Speaker 4: Oh, I have a little man of my side again,
16:06
Speaker 4: and we would go shopping and she wouldn't even hide,
16:09
Speaker 4: you know, like kids hide under the close at the
16:11
Speaker 4: shopping center. My heart was just almost stopped, you know.
16:15
Speaker 4: She never realized, you know, how much fear she went.
16:18
Speaker 2: Into me again. But yeah, it was just just a
16:24
Speaker 2: horrible couple of years.
16:25
Speaker 4: I think before I really came back down to earth
16:30
Speaker 4: and had like little Jack as well. So I think
16:35
Speaker 4: we moved and we just at least had started kinder
16:40
Speaker 4: and school, and that's when I sort of start to
16:42
Speaker 4: relax a bit. After that. The most disappointing thing was
16:46
Speaker 4: that court. I think that day when he.
16:51
Speaker 2: Got out on a technicality, and there's no doubt he
16:56
Speaker 2: went on to a fend more. I mean, I've seen
16:59
Speaker 2: correspondence with other journalists where people believe that their daughters
17:04
Speaker 2: were also molested by Crowther and he never faced justice
17:08
Speaker 2: for that. I mean, this sort of person is an
17:11
Speaker 2: intractable sexual offender. And if it was these days this
17:15
Speaker 2: was occurring he posts his sentence, he wouldn't be allowed
17:19
Speaker 2: to walk on the streets. He'd be off the place
17:21
Speaker 2: called the Village of the Damned, and it's called Corella,
17:23
Speaker 2: place where these intractable sexual offenders go after their sentence
17:28
Speaker 2: is finished, and they're monitored behind high walls with ankle bracelets,
17:33
Speaker 2: and if they go out of there, they have to
17:35
Speaker 2: be monitored to go into town or anything else like that.
17:37
Speaker 2: And it's only when the court feels that they have
17:41
Speaker 2: settled down a little bit they're allowed into the community.
17:44
Speaker 2: And you think if that was the approach back in
17:47
Speaker 2: the day, he would never have been on the streets
17:49
Speaker 2: to have any opportunity and that lottery moment as you
17:53
Speaker 2: called it, My goodness, it makes my heart jump as well.
17:56
Speaker 2: So this should never have happened. Na, I can see
18:04
Speaker 2: these memory is really coming back heavy for you. And
18:06
Speaker 2: I think what really stuck with you was when the
18:09
Speaker 2: policeman who'd been I've been working on them for three weeks,
18:12
Speaker 2: playing clothes, following him around, waiting for that red handed moment,
18:18
Speaker 2: and when it didn't happen, and the police looked at you,
18:21
Speaker 2: what was that face that he.
18:23
Speaker 4: Called It was just a real disappointment. They was so
18:26
Speaker 4: close and his crazy mum running up the lane. May
18:31
Speaker 4: and I do have a bit of guilt. Maybe that
18:35
Speaker 4: was part of the reason it was out of court
18:39
Speaker 4: that day, I hope not.
18:42
Speaker 2: I don't think that was I hope not. I think
18:44
Speaker 2: if the police didn't do their work, it's on them,
18:47
Speaker 2: not you. You're protecting your child from an absolute monster
18:50
Speaker 2: and a predator. And the interesting thing is that a
18:53
Speaker 2: number of investigative journalists have looked at Crowther for possible
18:57
Speaker 2: involvement in the Mister Cruel abductions as well of slightly
19:01
Speaker 2: older girls. But this guy seems to have been a
19:04
Speaker 2: complete oppert He tended to pick girls who were so young,
19:07
Speaker 2: like three, so they could not give evidence against him.
19:10
Speaker 2: You can barely remember what was going on, and so
19:13
Speaker 2: he was very calculating, very clever, and he also had
19:17
Speaker 2: a reputation for persecuting families who tried to put him
19:21
Speaker 2: in as well. There's one case where a child was
19:24
Speaker 2: molested that I know of, where he wasn't caught and
19:28
Speaker 2: evidence was given against him, and that person was persecuted
19:31
Speaker 2: for years by Crowther contacting them saying it that he
19:34
Speaker 2: was going to blow the father's brains out, he was
19:37
Speaker 2: going to come back and get their kids and all
19:39
Speaker 2: this sort of stuff. So you really dodged a bullet
19:43
Speaker 2: on this day.
19:45
Speaker 4: Definitely, so so lucky and like a lot of other families,
19:52
Speaker 4: very blessed, very blessed.
19:54
Speaker 2: Indeed, so you're looking after Mumu. Yeah, giving you. But
19:59
Speaker 2: this is this is a tough moment to talk about
20:00
Speaker 2: it for the first time. I really appreciate you coming
20:02
Speaker 2: forward and this is what this show's all about, by
20:03
Speaker 2: the way, people coming forward with their stories. It's your
20:06
Speaker 2: show out there as much as his mind. And this
20:08
Speaker 2: is how this came about, at least came forward to
20:11
Speaker 2: me and said, I love the show. I want to
20:13
Speaker 2: tell my story. Why was it important for you to
20:15
Speaker 2: tell the story?
20:17
Speaker 3: I feel Mum will get a bit of closure from
20:20
Speaker 3: finding the kids on the bike and the mum that
20:21
Speaker 3: helped her that day, because that's the main thing she
20:23
Speaker 3: talks about. And I feel like we might get more
20:27
Speaker 3: information if it's out there in the public and someone's
20:30
Speaker 3: listening to this now and can offer more information or
20:33
Speaker 3: give someone else closure.
20:36
Speaker 2: Because I think there are other victims who've never had
20:40
Speaker 2: justice and they won't get justice now because he's dead.
20:42
Speaker 2: But I think still closure is incredibly important, and I
20:45
Speaker 2: can see how important it is in your life, Janet,
20:47
Speaker 2: that you kept.
20:49
Speaker 4: On still hurts. Yeah, still hurts. Even though she was
20:55
Speaker 4: lucky one, it still hurts. Yeah, that's it. I'm surprised
21:00
Speaker 4: by your reaction, though I would have thought.
21:02
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it is that sort of survivor
21:04
Speaker 2: guilt you're talk talking about, that you might have been
21:08
Speaker 2: somehow responsible for putting your inn arms away when you weren't.
21:11
Speaker 2: You're doing that every other Australian family does over summer,
21:14
Speaker 2: kids playing in the back garden, the blow up pool,
21:16
Speaker 2: the dog. It's a scene that we can all relate to.
21:19
Speaker 2: But the fact is those old days where people thought
21:22
Speaker 2: things were safe and serene we could do these things,
21:25
Speaker 2: they were not safe whatsoever. And the problem was that
21:29
Speaker 2: in those days we still treated kids being taken up
21:33
Speaker 2: to sexual assault even as almost as a social welfare issue.
21:37
Speaker 2: There wasn't enough protection, There wasn't enough police manpower on
21:40
Speaker 2: these sort of jobs. And so guys like crowd that
21:42
Speaker 2: slipped between the cracks. And to see him in nineteen
21:45
Speaker 2: eighty three on sixty Minutes telling his story about how
21:51
Speaker 2: easy it is to steal children, and Jeff McMullen, very
21:55
Speaker 2: good reporter who I know personally nodding there and giving
21:59
Speaker 2: this vile creature of platform. It's interesting when they talk
22:03
Speaker 2: about these sexual aff nothing, not jail, not even chemical
22:09
Speaker 2: carstration can make a difference, because that predation, that stalking,
22:15
Speaker 2: that looking for opportunity is what it's all about. The
22:19
Speaker 2: sex is a kind of reward at the end of this,
22:23
Speaker 2: But the true thing is the preying on people. And
22:27
Speaker 2: you can imagine that the fear in the community back
22:29
Speaker 2: then when there was no CCTV, no no mobile phones,
22:34
Speaker 2: no nothing, no mobile phones, just.
22:38
Speaker 4: Running the hot streets, and you know what just crazy
22:42
Speaker 4: to think, isn't it that far that now.
22:48
Speaker 2: Big changes. Well, the sad thing is that still goes on,
22:52
Speaker 2: and these people lurk in the shadows about community still.
22:56
Speaker 2: And I'm sure there are people out there who've had
22:57
Speaker 2: experiences that they might have dismissed something, standards, something not
23:03
Speaker 2: to be concerned about. Someone lurking around a street, someone
23:06
Speaker 2: you know you see more than once, monitoring kids in schools,
23:11
Speaker 2: at pools, in their daily lives. Report them, call crime
23:16
Speaker 2: stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. This is
23:19
Speaker 2: an amazing story of luck. Do you feel blessed? Elise?
23:22
Speaker 3: Absolutely so so pleased and I have the best man.
23:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's fantastic you've shared it today, and
23:31
Speaker 2: I would urge anybody out there who has more information
23:34
Speaker 2: about crowd. Maybe you saw him back in the day,
23:37
Speaker 2: maybe you also had another lucky escape with your children,
23:40
Speaker 2: because he was just at it full time, absolutely full time.
23:44
Speaker 2: So there's more stories out there. I'd love to hear them.
23:46
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming that and sharing this
23:48
Speaker 2: amazing story. Thanks Adam, thank you, Thanks Elise, Thanks Jean.
23:55
Speaker 2: I think we need some more background on Christopher Crowther here,
23:58
Speaker 2: because as you say you feel like you might have
24:02
Speaker 2: contributed to him getting off by the fact that he
24:04
Speaker 2: wasn't caught red handed in the act of molesting poor
24:09
Speaker 2: Elise here. So I thought I'd bring in Aimin Gunning,
24:11
Speaker 2: who's looked very intensely at Crowther and his possible involvement
24:16
Speaker 2: in other crimes. Amen runs the Melbourne Marvels website and
24:21
Speaker 2: he's got certainly a strong interest in these offenders. So
24:25
Speaker 2: I thought I'd bring Aimen in. Can I Aimen get
24:28
Speaker 2: Adam tell me how bad an offender was Crowther, in
24:32
Speaker 2: your opinion.
24:34
Speaker 1: Up there with the worst.
24:35
Speaker 6: I'd say My interest in Crowder was in researching the
24:39
Speaker 6: Mister Cruel case, and Crowder was one of seven Mister
24:43
Speaker 6: Kruel suspects at the time. In the early nineties, he
24:48
Speaker 6: was one of seven suspects that made up what was
24:50
Speaker 6: called the Sierraphiles. This was reportedly a list of suspects
24:55
Speaker 6: that Operation Spectrum was unable to rule out as being
24:59
Speaker 6: mister Kruel when that operation disbanded in nineteen ninety four.
25:05
Speaker 6: Now it should be pointed out that he could not
25:08
Speaker 6: have abducted Carmen Chan as he was already on romant
25:11
Speaker 6: at the time of the abduction. For a series of
25:16
Speaker 6: the abductions that you've likely been talking about, prolific series
25:20
Speaker 6: in the mid nineteen eighties, early to mid nineteen eighties,
25:23
Speaker 6: I can give you a little bit of a biography
25:26
Speaker 6: of him. He was born in nineteen forty eight. He's
25:29
Speaker 6: from a middle class family, growing up in the Melbourne
25:33
Speaker 6: suburb of Birwood. Both his parents died young in their
25:37
Speaker 6: forties from heart attacks, and this is likely the genetic
25:42
Speaker 6: trait that also claimed Crowder's life at the relatively young
25:47
Speaker 6: age of fifty five in two thousand and three. So
25:51
Speaker 6: his court case in the nineteen nineties, Crowd's own barrister
25:55
Speaker 6: had claimed that his client had been exposed from the
25:59
Speaker 6: age of seven to a kind of child abuse himself,
26:02
Speaker 6: when his father had moved his lover into to the
26:05
Speaker 6: family home and taken photos of the living lover in
26:08
Speaker 6: quote pornographic or gynecological situations which Crowder and his brother
26:14
Speaker 6: had seen. So you know, it's that kind of thing
26:17
Speaker 6: where you often hear about offenders having this in their childhood.
26:23
Speaker 6: He worked in different jobs throughout the seventies and eighties.
26:26
Speaker 6: I know that he worked for the ABC Channel nine
26:30
Speaker 6: and the Australian Institute of Management. He had been convicted
26:35
Speaker 6: of sexual offenses in nineteen seventy two and child stealing
26:39
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy four and nineteen eighty one, so then
26:44
Speaker 6: by nineteen eighty three he's out of jail and he
26:48
Speaker 6: famously appears on sixty Minutes as a so called reformed
26:52
Speaker 6: Peterpharlt and the studio interview of Crowder. In this interview,
27:00
Speaker 6: he's using the pseudonym Brian and he's actually disguised himself
27:04
Speaker 6: by graying out his hair and beard, and he lies
27:09
Speaker 6: to the interviewer when he said he was reformed and
27:12
Speaker 6: hadn't abducted a child for six years, when in fact
27:15
Speaker 6: his offending had continued during this time.
27:19
Speaker 1: This program is fascinating.
27:21
Speaker 6: There's a secondary scene actually where Crowder is actually driving
27:26
Speaker 6: around a Channel nine film crew in his light blue
27:30
Speaker 6: forward Fourteina panel van which he used for many of
27:33
Speaker 6: his abductions in Melbourne soaps, and he.
27:37
Speaker 1: Shows them he approaches young.
27:40
Speaker 6: Girls in the streets and the assets them for directions
27:43
Speaker 6: and to get in his car, and he's trying to
27:46
Speaker 6: show them how easy it is to abduct children.
27:49
Speaker 1: But in this scene his hair is not grayed out.
27:52
Speaker 6: So they've obviously filmed it at a different time, and
27:56
Speaker 6: so he's got the contrast and his hair color is striking.
28:01
Speaker 6: And I'll come back to this in a moment, but
28:05
Speaker 6: he has kind of an auburn colored hair and beard
28:10
Speaker 6: that you can see it in the sunlight as he's
28:13
Speaker 6: driving around.
28:15
Speaker 1: And as he's driving around.
28:17
Speaker 6: He tells his guests from Channel nine quote, I'd pick
28:21
Speaker 6: up children from a park alleyway shopping center on the
28:25
Speaker 6: way home from school, on the way to school. It
28:27
Speaker 6: made no difference. There's a smallest board of children out there.
28:31
Speaker 6: All you have to do is drive around until you
28:33
Speaker 6: see one and pick them up. And then the interviewer
28:37
Speaker 6: asks him, you'd think you'd be taking enormous risks abducting children,
28:41
Speaker 6: and crowded responds, no, you're not. Very few child monists
28:46
Speaker 6: are caught. It's the easiest crime to commit and get
28:48
Speaker 6: away with. And then I'll go on to as his
28:52
Speaker 6: offenses really escalate between late nineteen eighty four and late
28:58
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty six. So during this period the Melbourne public
29:02
Speaker 6: was panic stricken due to the abduction sexual assault at
29:06
Speaker 6: least fourteen girls by a man in a car who
29:08
Speaker 6: had abduct the girls off the streets. There were aged
29:11
Speaker 6: between three and fourteen years of age, and the offenses
29:14
Speaker 6: were committed in quite a few different suburbs in the
29:18
Speaker 6: southeastern and eastern suburbs.
29:20
Speaker 1: So you've got Burwood.
29:21
Speaker 6: Noble Park, Brighton, Bellwood, Parkdale, Clayton, Rouville, spring Vale, Chadstin, Oakley, Maulvern, Jordanville, Corfield, Mentone,
29:31
Speaker 6: Sandringham and finally black Rock. And I'm not sure if
29:35
Speaker 6: you've already touched on this particular offense, but this was
29:40
Speaker 6: the most important one in his later being charged.
29:46
Speaker 1: In November nineteen.
29:47
Speaker 6: Eighty six, he abducted her seven year old girl off
29:50
Speaker 6: the street in black Rock and drove her to a
29:52
Speaker 6: park and seaford where he sexually assaulted her. And this
29:56
Speaker 6: incident receives a great deal of media publicity and as
30:00
Speaker 6: a result, he actually phoned a current affair named Day
30:06
Speaker 6: by Day using the false name Peter Harvey and gave
30:10
Speaker 6: secret information about the attack, which led police to believe
30:14
Speaker 6: that he had been involved. And he also called the
30:18
Speaker 6: HANDT and CIB using the same false name Peter Harvey,
30:23
Speaker 6: and when they told him they hadn't got far in
30:26
Speaker 6: their investigations. He had replied, goody, goody, goody, because he's
30:32
Speaker 6: on the prowl again tonight. And the judge in his
30:37
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety two case said, when he read the transcript
30:40
Speaker 6: from the recording, he said that crowd appeared to be
30:44
Speaker 6: basking in a state of sexual excitement during the core.
30:48
Speaker 2: This guy is absolutely in veterate.
30:50
Speaker 1: I mean, I can go on with what happened here.
30:53
Speaker 6: So he's then arrested at that time December nineteen eighty six,
30:57
Speaker 6: and he's questioned.
30:59
Speaker 1: About the Black Rock abduction, but.
31:01
Speaker 6: He's released without charge and then said these attacks stop, okay,
31:08
Speaker 6: So these abductions of young girls between eighty six and
31:12
Speaker 6: ninety one, there's no more. But then he police obviously
31:18
Speaker 6: take a while to come up with their case against him,
31:22
Speaker 6: and he's arrested in January nineteen ninety one. So as
31:26
Speaker 6: I said before, so that's three months before Carmen Chan
31:29
Speaker 6: has abducted in April nineteen ninety one. So he couldn't
31:32
Speaker 6: have done that because he's on remand. But he's charged
31:36
Speaker 6: with offenses against children, sexual offenses and child stealing in
31:40
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty six, and he's convicted
31:44
Speaker 6: in mid nineteen ninety two after four aborted trials, and
31:48
Speaker 6: he's sentenced to sixteen years with a non parole period
31:52
Speaker 6: of thirteen years for child stealing, in decent assault and
31:55
Speaker 6: sexual penetration. However, as you know, he appeals to conviction
32:00
Speaker 6: in ninety three, and the main evidence against him was
32:05
Speaker 6: voice identification by police and his ex wife and some
32:11
Speaker 6: forensic tests which had initially excluded Crowder as the source
32:15
Speaker 6: of seamen. And the outcome was that eleven of the
32:20
Speaker 6: counts were quashed, but the charges which he had pled
32:25
Speaker 6: guilty on held up, and so his sentence gets massively
32:30
Speaker 6: reduced to twenty months imprisonment for non parole period of
32:35
Speaker 6: twelve months, so he's effectively already released.
32:39
Speaker 4: Now.
32:40
Speaker 1: I do believe that he.
32:43
Speaker 6: Ended up back in prison, though he's convicted again in
32:45
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety nine. It seems that while he was in
32:50
Speaker 6: prison he shared a cell with a convicted murderer by
32:56
Speaker 6: the name of Ronald Victor Lucas, who was convicted for
33:01
Speaker 6: the murder and dismemberment of James Pinacos, who was killed
33:05
Speaker 6: with the crossbow. Now, Lucas convinced Crowther that he was
33:10
Speaker 6: innocent and framed by others, saying Crowd took upon himself
33:14
Speaker 6: to seek justice on Lucas's behalf, and police found no
33:19
Speaker 6: supporting evidence of this though, and no body parts werever discovered.
33:23
Speaker 6: For Crowd's lawyer himself explained that Crowther suffered from a
33:28
Speaker 6: delusional disorder and was trying to write what he saw
33:32
Speaker 6: as a wrong, but didn't support his client in his beliefs.
33:37
Speaker 6: The other thing I'd like to say though, is coming
33:39
Speaker 6: back to the nineteen eighty six case.
33:43
Speaker 1: I think this is pretty important.
33:45
Speaker 6: So as you know, one of the early Bayside attacks
33:50
Speaker 6: that was Operation Spectrum believed was done by mister Krule
33:56
Speaker 6: was the February nineteen eighty six abduction of a twenty
34:01
Speaker 6: one year old woman from Corfield. She was driven to
34:06
Speaker 6: a park in Chelsea and she actually escaped, And in
34:11
Speaker 6: that case she had been able to see the offender
34:16
Speaker 6: who abducted her. She could see under her blindfold which
34:19
Speaker 6: wasn't on properly while she was in the car being
34:22
Speaker 6: driven down to Chelsea. And later on during Operation Spectrum
34:28
Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety one she was reinterviewed and she was
34:31
Speaker 6: an excellent witness and she provided police with a police
34:38
Speaker 6: digital artist created an image of this man that she
34:43
Speaker 6: was very confident she could remember how he looked. Incredibly,
34:48
Speaker 6: this image looks it is the speaking image of Christopher Crowder. Now,
34:55
Speaker 6: of course, you know something will say that you know
35:00
Speaker 6: very different mos because crowd himself for all of the
35:05
Speaker 6: fenses we know that he committed or was charged with.
35:10
Speaker 6: They tended to be very young girl's age between three
35:14
Speaker 6: or four and say nine years of age, whereas in
35:18
Speaker 6: this case we've got a grown woman and she's blindfolded.
35:21
Speaker 6: Whereas Crowd the pigs girls off the street, he doesn't
35:24
Speaker 6: hide his appearance to them. But one of the reasons
35:30
Speaker 6: why he would target these young girls in the first
35:34
Speaker 6: place was that they couldn't testify in court being so
35:38
Speaker 6: young at the time, the testimony did not stand up in.
35:42
Speaker 1: Court, So he knew that, you know.
35:48
Speaker 6: Yeah, so there's still a belief that it's possible he
35:50
Speaker 6: could have been mister Kruele pre Carmen Chan Well, that's.
35:55
Speaker 2: Right, because I think what we've established in our investigations
35:59
Speaker 2: about mister Krule is that it's not just one offender,
36:02
Speaker 2: it's more than one. We have to get off that track.
36:03
Speaker 2: But I think what you've just laid out though, really
36:07
Speaker 2: demonstrates the depth of Crowthers offending and really how police
36:13
Speaker 2: didn't get it right, the fact that he managed to
36:16
Speaker 2: get only a minimal sentence for all those attacks from
36:19
Speaker 2: the mid eighties through the early nineties. And I mean
36:22
Speaker 2: I was really sad to hear Elise and particularly her
36:26
Speaker 2: mum regret that he managed to have his trials aborted
36:31
Speaker 2: and the whole thing was finally reduced. So what you've
36:34
Speaker 2: really laid out is a serial offender. And I would say, amen,
36:39
Speaker 2: that there are more offenses out there, there are more victims.
36:44
Speaker 2: This guy didn't stop. He was prolific and as you say,
36:46
Speaker 2: he chose kids who couldn't give evidence against him, couldn't
36:51
Speaker 2: distinguish him.
36:53
Speaker 6: That's right, really brazen, and that nineteen eighty three sixty
36:57
Speaker 6: minutes interview you can see that he's gaining pleasure although
37:03
Speaker 6: he's acting as a reformed pedophile. He's enjoying the attention
37:09
Speaker 6: and his ego is being sort of massage with the attention,
37:15
Speaker 6: if you.
37:15
Speaker 1: Know what I mean.
37:17
Speaker 2: Well, I mean thank you for that. I really appreciate
37:19
Speaker 2: your time and giving us the background. There that's him
37:22
Speaker 2: and gunning from Melbourne Marvels. You can read more about
37:24
Speaker 2: his research in the crowd and other offenders who may
37:27
Speaker 2: be involved in mister Crulsbury. There's probably more evidence out there.
37:30
Speaker 2: I think there's going to be more people who suffered
37:33
Speaker 2: at the hands of Crowther, and I'd be interested to
37:36
Speaker 2: hear from anybody else who has unresolved cases that could
37:39
Speaker 2: be attributed to him. He is one of Australia's all
37:43
Speaker 2: time heenous monsters. It's just a shame that he didn't
37:47
Speaker 2: do a lot more jail time, which would have saved
37:50
Speaker 2: other people from similar ordeals. I've got to thank Elesa
37:53
Speaker 2: and Jenna for coming in today to discuss what was
37:56
Speaker 2: a very very near miss. So thanks once again. So
38:00
Speaker 2: if you have any information about this guy or anybody else,
38:03
Speaker 2: frankly core crime stoppers one one hundred, Triple three, Triple zero,
38:07
Speaker 2: or you can email me directly Adam Shann, writer at
38:10
Speaker 2: gmail dot com. This has been Real Crime with Adam Shann.
38:13
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam Shann. Thanks for listening. Thanks for
38:24
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