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The Marvelous and Much Maligned Mary-Sue · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to
0:07
Speaker 1: stuff I never told you protection of I Heart Radio,
0:18
Speaker 1: and today's episode is gonna be a bit shorter. I
0:21
Speaker 1: imagine a bit more conversational. We'll see, because this is
0:24
Speaker 1: a topic I am well versed in Somethingtha, you are.
0:27
Speaker 1: I feel like this might be one of those like
0:29
Speaker 1: fictional characters. I'm gonna go now, wait to explain that
0:31
Speaker 1: to me again. That might be what's happening. I think so,
0:34
Speaker 1: And I hope you feel free to ask those questions
0:37
Speaker 1: because they are important. Um. And also, this was a
0:40
Speaker 1: bit of a schedule shuffle, so yeah, it's gonna be
0:44
Speaker 1: gonna be a bit more on the fly, I guess.
0:47
Speaker 1: But I do feel very very I feel like I
0:50
Speaker 1: could talk about this at length. I've been researching this
0:52
Speaker 1: my entire life. You've been waiting for this moment, your
0:55
Speaker 1: entire life, Yes I have. I'm about to step into
0:58
Speaker 1: the spotlight us to like the Mary Sue often does,
1:02
Speaker 1: because that is what we are talking about today, is there?
1:05
Speaker 1: It is the Mary Sue, And uh, They're going to
1:10
Speaker 1: be very brief. Spoilers for the new Predator prequel movie Prey,
1:14
Speaker 1: which is on Hulu and I really like, if you
1:16
Speaker 1: want to check it out. Samantha hasn't seen it, so
1:18
Speaker 1: this is gonna be just as well. Yeah, I will
1:22
Speaker 1: go and see it because I've been told that I
1:24
Speaker 1: needed to see it, and I had planned on seeing it,
1:26
Speaker 1: but yeah, schedule stuff has prevented me thus far. Because
1:30
Speaker 1: when you watch it, you were actually at my house.
1:32
Speaker 1: I was just like, I'm sleepy and there was a
1:36
Speaker 1: surround sounance situation and I was nervous, and oh my gosh,
1:40
Speaker 1: So you got the whole experience, didn't I did you know?
1:44
Speaker 1: I was thinking that other day, um at my sixteenth
1:48
Speaker 1: birthday party. And this should give you kind of a
1:50
Speaker 1: clear view of who I am as a person. I
1:53
Speaker 1: made all my friends watch Predator. I loved that movie.
1:58
Speaker 1: I've never seen any of them, you know, I I
2:02
Speaker 1: honestly don't go beyond the first one unless you really
2:06
Speaker 1: want to see like the newer ones that are okay.
2:10
Speaker 1: I would not go past the version with the older
2:12
Speaker 1: ones personally, but I think you'll be final Dow. I'm like,
2:15
Speaker 1: I really liked them. Then, well, this is supposed to
2:18
Speaker 1: be a prequel too, so yes, this is there's no
2:21
Speaker 1: there's no part of it where you're gonna be like, oh, gosh,
2:24
Speaker 1: there might be there's some nods of oh that's where
2:27
Speaker 1: that skull might have come from, or but you'd be
2:31
Speaker 1: fine you don't write it. Yes, yes, So before we
2:36
Speaker 1: get into this, you can see our past episodes on
2:39
Speaker 1: fan fiction, the feminism of Star Wars, UM and the
2:43
Speaker 1: Star Wars sequel movies, where we all we talked about
2:45
Speaker 1: the Mary Sue a little bit in all of them. Um.
2:49
Speaker 1: And also a disclaimer, not everyone agrees on the definition
2:52
Speaker 1: of a Mary Sue, and there are some examples people
2:55
Speaker 1: gives that I don't always agree with. But we'll go
2:56
Speaker 1: through that as we do this. And I think it's
2:58
Speaker 1: part of the I think we're working up two different
3:02
Speaker 1: definitions here, the one that's being used in the mainstream
3:05
Speaker 1: and then the one that I know in my heart
3:07
Speaker 1: from reading fan fiction. I like that you're reaching for
3:11
Speaker 1: your heart, yes, the one that is so dear and
3:15
Speaker 1: near to you. Yes, I we're going to talk about it,
3:19
Speaker 1: but I will defend a Mary Sue. I will defend
3:20
Speaker 1: Mary su Um. Okay, so what inspired this whole thing
3:25
Speaker 1: is a couple of days ago at this point, So
3:28
Speaker 1: what where are we are where are we some methis?
3:31
Speaker 1: August August eleventh, two thousand twenty two. Happy birthday to
3:37
Speaker 1: our friend Ben Bolan of conspiracy Nemesis. I haven't seen
3:41
Speaker 1: him and talked to him in a while. I love
3:43
Speaker 1: how it's kind of a one sided nemesis back, he said.
3:47
Speaker 1: He claimed that as well in his podcast. I don't
3:51
Speaker 1: know which, which one, I don't know when, but he
3:54
Speaker 1: let me know that it has happened, hasn't gone away
3:57
Speaker 1: a little bit? Yes, because pandemic means I don't see
4:00
Speaker 1: people and then to me, still a pandemic. Yes, Oh yeah,
4:03
Speaker 1: well I yeah, I like that. There's a lot of
4:05
Speaker 1: questions in vagaries in your name of sis relationship, but
4:08
Speaker 1: you have one, and that's what's important. That's yes. Yes.
4:12
Speaker 1: So a couple of days ago, I saw Mary Sue
4:17
Speaker 1: was trending on Twitter and I immediately thought, oh, this
4:22
Speaker 1: can't be good. And the reason it was trending was because, um,
4:25
Speaker 1: a couple of male YouTubers pretty much called the character
4:29
Speaker 1: Nauru played by Amber mid Thunder from a Prey the
4:34
Speaker 1: Predator prequel Mary Sue, and then he went viral and
4:39
Speaker 1: people were discussing the term and whether or not she
4:43
Speaker 1: was one, whether or not was sexist, all of this
4:46
Speaker 1: stuff and alright, so minors spoilers. The movie follows Naru,
4:52
Speaker 1: who is a young Camachi woman on sort of a
4:55
Speaker 1: right of passage where she stalks, hunts, and ultimately confronts Predator.
5:00
Speaker 1: If you haven't seen Predator, do I have no idea
5:02
Speaker 1: what that is? Um, Predator is an advanced alien hunter
5:05
Speaker 1: from another planet. So they kind of do the right
5:07
Speaker 1: of passage thing as well. They've got like, they've got
5:11
Speaker 1: some intense rules about who you can kill and who
5:14
Speaker 1: you can't. But yeah, okay, you're not supposed to kill
5:18
Speaker 1: anyone who's sick. You're not supposed to kill anyone who's pregnant,
5:20
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to kill children. Um. I can't remember
5:25
Speaker 1: how usually they stick to those rules. I'm sure there's
5:29
Speaker 1: examples where they did it, but in general they do.
5:32
Speaker 1: They're very like scary looking. A lot of fan fiction
5:36
Speaker 1: written about Predator. Actually, according to my friend Katie, I've
5:39
Speaker 1: never read it, but she told me about it. Uh,
5:43
Speaker 1: And I saw I saw somebody dresses Predator at Dragon
5:45
Speaker 1: Con once and I literally ran away because he scared me.
5:47
Speaker 1: He was still big. But anyway, Okay, okay, I'm getting
5:51
Speaker 1: away from the point. Uh Nauru in this movie was
5:55
Speaker 1: able to succeed where many men had failed in hunting him,
5:59
Speaker 1: and this she did this after she had observed him.
6:02
Speaker 1: She learned his skills and weaknesses and then ultimately exploited
6:06
Speaker 1: those weaknesses. But these YouTubers in question believed that there's
6:11
Speaker 1: no way she could have defeated Predator as a woman. Um,
6:16
Speaker 1: and they also went into critiques about her body type.
6:19
Speaker 1: It was a really gross The whole thing was pretty gross.
6:21
Speaker 1: And yeah, just by the way, this movie broke streaming
6:25
Speaker 1: records and is highly acclaimed. Uh yeah, yeah, all right,
6:30
Speaker 1: but these guys weren't happy. He thought she was a
6:33
Speaker 1: Mary Sue, which rings us to the question what exactly
6:36
Speaker 1: is Mary Sue? And we have talked about this before
6:39
Speaker 1: and past episodes. I know you had never heard it,
6:42
Speaker 1: I think the first time I brought it up, Samantha,
6:45
Speaker 1: I know the literal Mary Sue, which is like characters
6:49
Speaker 1: in the past, where like Mary Sue is a song
6:53
Speaker 1: Peggy Sue, that's a Peggy Sue. Mary Sue was a
6:57
Speaker 1: character in a movie. I forgot what movie it was.
6:59
Speaker 1: So that's where I'm like oh it's this No, okay,
7:02
Speaker 1: never mind, Yes, we were coming from different yes, yes, um, okay. Well.
7:11
Speaker 1: The term mary sue was first coined in a Star
7:13
Speaker 1: Trek fanzine in nineteen seventy three by PAULA Smith. You
7:17
Speaker 1: can still find it. It's closely related to terms like manic, pixie,
7:21
Speaker 1: dream girl, and the cool girl. But in its original
7:25
Speaker 1: use it was satire. And if I'm remembering correctly, it
7:27
Speaker 1: was this blonde, beautiful woman who starts working on the
7:35
Speaker 1: enterprise and every man is just like drooling at her,
7:38
Speaker 1: and she's talking about how she doesn't think she's beautiful.
7:41
Speaker 1: I might be making that part of but that's a
7:43
Speaker 1: very common trope about the that's the pixie manic yes
7:47
Speaker 1: type of level. Yes, yes, yes, And I'm going to
7:50
Speaker 1: talk more about why I think that might be. But all, okay,
7:54
Speaker 1: So mary sus don't always check all of these boxes.
7:56
Speaker 1: But here are a few common attributes you. Usually they're
8:00
Speaker 1: essentially a fantasy placeholder character. Um someone usually a woman
8:05
Speaker 1: who is mostly perfect, black flaws, black depths, maybe he's
8:09
Speaker 1: kind of boring or bland, typically viewed as an idealized
8:13
Speaker 1: version of the author, the world or a universe who
8:17
Speaker 1: evolves around. Then they are capital I important, if I
8:21
Speaker 1: had to expound on it. And this is where I
8:23
Speaker 1: think we're going into the two definitions that we're using. Territory.
8:27
Speaker 1: She's usually beautiful, she's sweet, she's charming, she's shy, she's clumsy, powerful, brave,
8:33
Speaker 1: loved by everyone except maybe her abusive family. She's even
8:37
Speaker 1: loved by like the enemies, her own enemies. She has
8:41
Speaker 1: multiple suitors but doesn't necessarily know it, doesn't necessarily know
8:44
Speaker 1: she's beautiful. She has the most lovely singing voice always
8:50
Speaker 1: that is a surprise. Oh my goodness, listen to her sing,
8:54
Speaker 1: and she's too shy to do it at first, but
8:55
Speaker 1: then the confidence comes. But yeah, that might be more
8:59
Speaker 1: of a fan fiction one. Uh. And I I do
9:03
Speaker 1: think that that is different than the mainstream description people
9:06
Speaker 1: are using, and I'm going to talk about that later. Um,
9:10
Speaker 1: there are some complications with these definitions. One thing is
9:14
Speaker 1: like natural talent or something like magic or the force
9:19
Speaker 1: that might make you more naturally talented at things, and
9:22
Speaker 1: isn't always consistent, to say the least, like if you
9:25
Speaker 1: try to make it makes sense, probably won't make sense. Um,
9:29
Speaker 1: And natural talent versus training is something that gets thrown
9:32
Speaker 1: around a lot in this discussion, but it seems we're
9:35
Speaker 1: far more likely to believe men have natural talent as
9:39
Speaker 1: compared to women. Critiques about bad writing is a different
9:42
Speaker 1: thing and is also a totally valid thing, But a
9:45
Speaker 1: lot of times when the term mary Sue starts getting
9:47
Speaker 1: thrown around in the mainstream, it is coming from a
9:50
Speaker 1: sexist place. And also I would just like to point
9:53
Speaker 1: out a good portion of mainstream so called mary sus
9:57
Speaker 1: are written by mail writer, which is something to think on.
10:02
Speaker 1: And also a lot of women just aren't given the
10:05
Speaker 1: complexity both in character and storylines as male characters are,
10:09
Speaker 1: so that is also something to keep in mind. If
10:13
Speaker 1: you're curious, there is a male equivalent. The Gary Sue
10:17
Speaker 1: are Marty Stu. But you might have noticed that these
10:23
Speaker 1: names have not gone mainstream. Occasionally male characters are called
10:27
Speaker 1: mary SU's, but it's pretty rare, even though there are
10:29
Speaker 1: plenty of male characters that qualified. Based on the definition
10:33
Speaker 1: used in the mainstream, which I would say is pretty
10:35
Speaker 1: much in every man character are just like the main character,
10:39
Speaker 1: could probably be embarrassed by this definition that they are using.
10:44
Speaker 1: There is a website that mary Sue um. And they
10:48
Speaker 1: are part of some work to reclaim this term, and
10:52
Speaker 1: they released an article addressing everything we're talking about a
10:55
Speaker 1: few days ago, and specifically this whole thing with Naru
10:59
Speaker 1: and prey Um that you should check out if you
11:01
Speaker 1: haven't already. But they have a nice section where they're like,
11:05
Speaker 1: we're proud of our name Maryusu, Yes you are, yes um.
11:11
Speaker 1: So I did want to go over some popular examples,
11:14
Speaker 1: and the big one in our more recent times is
11:17
Speaker 1: Ray from these Star Wars sequel trilogy. People like to say, oh,
11:23
Speaker 1: she was able to use the force so quickly, she
11:25
Speaker 1: didn't have like any training. She beat Kylo Wrin. But
11:28
Speaker 1: I'm also like, so did finn Um by the way, Um,
11:33
Speaker 1: she got so powerful so quickly. Um. And this was
11:37
Speaker 1: such a big critique thrown at this character that the
11:43
Speaker 1: actor who plays her, Daisy Ridley Um, once said there's
11:47
Speaker 1: no such thing as a Ryan Craig and she called
11:50
Speaker 1: the whole thing sexist. Um. And I, as I've said,
11:54
Speaker 1: many times, maybe Kylo Ren just sucks. I don't know
11:57
Speaker 1: why we're so quick to assume she's like so good
12:01
Speaker 1: against him because he's so good. Maybe he's not good. Yeah,
12:07
Speaker 1: maybe both are true at once. I don't know. It
12:10
Speaker 1: is possible that she is more naturally talented it is,
12:14
Speaker 1: or that she worked harder or both. And a lot
12:16
Speaker 1: of people compare her to Luke Skywalker and they're always like, well, Luke,
12:23
Speaker 1: uh failed a lot to say um, and he sometimes
12:29
Speaker 1: he sometimes gets called Mary Sue. Some people think he
12:32
Speaker 1: got good real quick. Uh. In that article I just
12:35
Speaker 1: mentioned from the Mary Suit, they called him my dramatic prince,
12:39
Speaker 1: which I loved. But yes. On the other hand, some
12:43
Speaker 1: people are like, but you know, he failed hard and
12:46
Speaker 1: Empire strikes back and maybe in return the Jedda because
12:48
Speaker 1: some people think Darth Vader let him win that fight.
12:51
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh. He needs rescuing more than Leia
12:54
Speaker 1: and definitely more than Ray does. But Ray still struggled
12:58
Speaker 1: with darkness, she struggled with connecting the force um, she
13:01
Speaker 1: struggled with her own trauma. And again we can argue
13:04
Speaker 1: about whether the writing or characterization wasn't there, especially with
13:09
Speaker 1: shifting stories and directors. If it's just that we give
13:12
Speaker 1: male characters a lot more leeway all of those things,
13:15
Speaker 1: I think, and also I do think it's worth mentioning there.
13:19
Speaker 1: I know I talked about it in our episode on
13:21
Speaker 1: the Star Wars Equals, but there is I call it
13:23
Speaker 1: force creep where technology has advanced to the point that
13:28
Speaker 1: characters can be more visually powerful, so they might look
13:33
Speaker 1: more powerful because now they can do more stuff to
13:36
Speaker 1: make them look more powerful. Um. And also, yes, nostalgia
13:40
Speaker 1: does make people very protective of these characters from their childhood.
13:45
Speaker 1: But it's I was thinking about this. I feel like
13:47
Speaker 1: it's kind of reductive though, because it's almost always a
13:50
Speaker 1: woman being compared to what a man can do or did,
13:53
Speaker 1: Because almost always the comparisons are done with newer women
13:57
Speaker 1: who are introduced into these properties against a fan favorite man.
14:02
Speaker 1: Another big example Aria Stark. Somebody recently told me I
14:07
Speaker 1: should like issue spoilers for Game of Thrones. I feel
14:10
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones has been around long enough. Wow. Really yes,
14:14
Speaker 1: she was very firm about it. I was like, okay, well,
14:18
Speaker 1: I say, not watched any even they just she had,
14:24
Speaker 1: but she was saying somebody else might not have. And
14:27
Speaker 1: I was like, huh, like the new kids coming up
14:30
Speaker 1: and coming who had been ten I guess when I started,
14:33
Speaker 1: and they can watch it. No Shade, No Shade did
14:39
Speaker 1: that surprising as like, well, if I don't want to
14:43
Speaker 1: be spoiled on a Game of Thrones, do not end well?
14:47
Speaker 1: People still have a better taste in their mouth about it.
14:49
Speaker 1: How about that it's true? I mean maybe that's yeah,
14:52
Speaker 1: we should come back and talk about that. That'd be interesting.
15:07
Speaker 1: All right. So you've got these kind of big villains,
15:11
Speaker 1: the Night King, the White Walkers throughout the series are
15:16
Speaker 1: Stark is the one that eventually kills the night came Yeah. Um,
15:21
Speaker 1: people and mostly man we're like, nope, no way. She
15:27
Speaker 1: could not have done it. That is impossible. I do
15:30
Speaker 1: not buy for a second Aria did it. It's just
15:34
Speaker 1: them trying to appease the social justice warriors, um, which
15:39
Speaker 1: is funny because why would they. Yeah, no, I know,
15:44
Speaker 1: I don't know why they think. This is what we
15:46
Speaker 1: want social justice. We want a fictional character to in
15:50
Speaker 1: a fictional bad guy, and that's going to solve all
15:53
Speaker 1: of our problems. They're gonna be so satisfied with that. Yeah,
15:57
Speaker 1: we'll finally like all right, we're good. Now they did it.
16:02
Speaker 1: I started had her moment, very brief moment for all
16:06
Speaker 1: women out there, yes, and then back away. Um. That
16:11
Speaker 1: actually is a big argument. I'm going to talk about
16:13
Speaker 1: that more later that it's just companies like bowing to
16:16
Speaker 1: the pressure of feminism, right, But I like typically watched
16:20
Speaker 1: the same show her whole She suffered the entire time.
16:25
Speaker 1: That's in her training, like we wanted to be trained
16:28
Speaker 1: and to be a soldier. That was her whole intent
16:31
Speaker 1: in her entire life. Went down a really dark path
16:34
Speaker 1: and cannot come out of it because she knows she
16:36
Speaker 1: has really broken and that is why she travels by herself. Yes,
16:41
Speaker 1: her whole thing. Like from the very first episode, she
16:44
Speaker 1: was like teaching how defense. I want to be a fighter.
16:46
Speaker 1: I want to be as that was her whole thing, right,
16:50
Speaker 1: and to just dismiss it as oh that's impossible, day
16:54
Speaker 1: and night training for you for a few years, even
16:57
Speaker 1: doing it blind, I felt like again with you on
17:01
Speaker 1: this one, was like, were we not watching the same
17:03
Speaker 1: show because she suffered to be better? Yes? Yes, And
17:08
Speaker 1: everyone was like it should have been John Snow, And
17:11
Speaker 1: I was like, you just like John Snow and you
17:12
Speaker 1: don't like the Aria got there first and she made
17:15
Speaker 1: it right, that's too bad for you, That's what I'm saying.
17:20
Speaker 1: Like John Snows, I mean to be fair, his character
17:23
Speaker 1: was built up to be nothing in the end, You're like, wait,
17:26
Speaker 1: he just goes back. That's it. Well, okay, the huge
17:31
Speaker 1: prophecy of him being keen and ruler and the you know,
17:35
Speaker 1: the snow to the eyes to the fire. I guess
17:39
Speaker 1: this is how it goes. You just both lose. Is
17:42
Speaker 1: that that's just the world of the story. But yeah, no,
17:49
Speaker 1: come on, it's okay, it is it is. Another big
17:53
Speaker 1: one is Jenny Weasley, which I find very fascinating because
17:58
Speaker 1: I think she you don't you only get like snippets
18:02
Speaker 1: of her story, right, but there's still this idea of like,
18:05
Speaker 1: no way she could be that powerful, because she's always
18:07
Speaker 1: kind of described as someone who could do like these
18:09
Speaker 1: Texas are charms. So well, but then that the whole
18:12
Speaker 1: point of the magic was that some people are just
18:14
Speaker 1: naturally able to do so. And when it comes to magic,
18:19
Speaker 1: sorry sorry to those out there, but it's not a thing.
18:26
Speaker 1: And so to characterize as if you were an expert
18:29
Speaker 1: and pretend to know how this would work, it's odd.
18:34
Speaker 1: It is. It's a territorial because you're just angry it
18:38
Speaker 1: didn't go your way. Yeah, people do get really, I've
18:44
Speaker 1: I've been in kind of surprise arguments with people about
18:48
Speaker 1: like magic and how magic works, are how the forest works?
18:50
Speaker 1: And you don't even they've changed that story a million
18:53
Speaker 1: times in Star Wars, like I don't know, is it
18:57
Speaker 1: some parasite in your blood or is it just something happens. Well, yeah,
19:01
Speaker 1: it literally was like, may the Force be with you?
19:03
Speaker 1: The force is strong in this one. Those seems to
19:06
Speaker 1: seem to implicate that there is a measure of natural ability. Yes,
19:12
Speaker 1: and someone now was that the original intent of ray
19:16
Speaker 1: I don't know. Everybody's very confused, so that's a little
19:20
Speaker 1: more arguable maybe. But the Jenny Easley line was always
19:27
Speaker 1: but that she was powerful from jump, from the very beginning.
19:30
Speaker 1: When she was taken over by Tom Riddle, she kind
19:34
Speaker 1: of had a connection because she was that strong. That's
19:37
Speaker 1: what they she implied. We will not name the author
19:40
Speaker 1: who did this, but in the book we see that
19:43
Speaker 1: she is really powerful. Maybe that's the confusion I think
19:46
Speaker 1: she was when she's she was a seventh child of
19:48
Speaker 1: like she had a lot going Yeah, to explain this,
19:52
Speaker 1: but again she's not like I find this one interesting
19:55
Speaker 1: because she's not the main character. So this is proving
19:59
Speaker 1: to me it's it's both want to hate her because
20:03
Speaker 1: she got together with Harry and they didn't feel it
20:05
Speaker 1: was right, so they found every reason to not like her. Well,
20:08
Speaker 1: that's why I think this one is more slightly more
20:11
Speaker 1: complicated than the other examples on here, because most everyone
20:14
Speaker 1: else we're going to talk about or have talked about,
20:17
Speaker 1: has been more of a man saying Mary Sue. Jenny
20:23
Speaker 1: Weasley also intersects with young girls hating the hetero woman
20:29
Speaker 1: that ended up with a guy that they liked, that
20:31
Speaker 1: they had a crush on. And so I wonder if
20:34
Speaker 1: that's publicity And I would say this in this one
20:37
Speaker 1: ideal that they built up Emma Watson to be the protagonist,
20:41
Speaker 1: the woman, the leading woman in this leading character in
20:44
Speaker 1: this story who doesn't get together with Harry, but public
20:49
Speaker 1: like publicly she came as like chic and stylish and
20:52
Speaker 1: became like became a model and became an icon. But
20:56
Speaker 1: they for the actress who played Jenny Weasley, we didn't
20:59
Speaker 1: see her anything outside of the young girl, because there
21:01
Speaker 1: was no real growth for her other than she's grown.
21:05
Speaker 1: Like You're like, it's really hard to like not see
21:10
Speaker 1: that because we didn't maybe in London, maybe in England
21:13
Speaker 1: it was different, Like I know, I know there's a
21:16
Speaker 1: lot of paparazzi and stuff, but they still seem to
21:19
Speaker 1: have a more of a private life. A lot of
21:21
Speaker 1: especially in the UK, like a little more of a
21:23
Speaker 1: private life for celebrities. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong,
21:26
Speaker 1: but seeing that she didn't really grow into that stardom,
21:30
Speaker 1: maybe we were not able to see her grow up
21:33
Speaker 1: outside of the movie before, which was four years earlier,
21:36
Speaker 1: which was she was significantly younger, So it was hard
21:39
Speaker 1: for a lot of people to understand this development, right. Yeah,
21:44
Speaker 1: And I also think um. A friend of mine asked
21:48
Speaker 1: me the other day because I was saying, like when
21:51
Speaker 1: I was reading growing up reading fan fiction, people I
21:56
Speaker 1: hated genuously, they hated her. Jinny bashing was like a
22:01
Speaker 1: tag um and I I said, you know, I don't
22:08
Speaker 1: think I think it's a largely because and I could
22:11
Speaker 1: be wrong, but I think it's largely younger girls who
22:14
Speaker 1: had a crush on Harry Potter or Daniel Radcliff or
22:16
Speaker 1: what have you and didn't like her. And there's more
22:20
Speaker 1: I could expound on, but I'm not going to because
22:21
Speaker 1: i'd be a separate podcast about um. Some people really
22:25
Speaker 1: just don't like the Weasley family. But anyway, who doesn't
22:28
Speaker 1: like the Weasley family? Oh gosh, Samantha, we're gonna have
22:31
Speaker 1: to have a sidebar. It's kind of the whole like
22:36
Speaker 1: Slytherin was wrong, done wrong that that exists in fiction.
22:40
Speaker 1: But anyway, any way, so I was I was saying, yeah,
22:44
Speaker 1: I think because they had a crush on Harry Potter,
22:48
Speaker 1: weren't happy with any easily and she was. She asked
22:51
Speaker 1: me if Leiah and Luke had ended up together, because
22:56
Speaker 1: Leiah is pretty much loved throughout pland fiction, do you
22:59
Speaker 1: think the same thing would have happened? And I had
23:01
Speaker 1: to pause and I was like, I don't think so,
23:03
Speaker 1: but I think they're very different properties. Also, because you're
23:07
Speaker 1: Harry Potter. For a lot of people, you were aging
23:09
Speaker 1: with it, where Star Wars was just a thing that
23:11
Speaker 1: was sort of done. You saw it when you're a kid,
23:14
Speaker 1: and it was stayed the same and you always knew
23:16
Speaker 1: the thing. But I do think that's an interesting point
23:19
Speaker 1: it was to think on, because I think that is
23:21
Speaker 1: a part of this. Gosh, I have so many thoughts.
23:24
Speaker 1: But Lily Potter is often given as an example of
23:28
Speaker 1: Mary Sue as well, which again you don't really know
23:31
Speaker 1: much about her. You don't see much of her, so
23:33
Speaker 1: I find that interesting. Was very talented from the jump. Yep.
23:39
Speaker 1: I'm very confused by these arguments. I know, I know,
23:42
Speaker 1: and that brings us to naaru uh so in in
23:46
Speaker 1: the movie Pray, her whole thing was training. It was
23:49
Speaker 1: kind of like Arias Stark the whole movie that was
23:52
Speaker 1: the fit. She was on her ride of passage and
23:54
Speaker 1: she hadn't been trading. She continued to train. She was
23:57
Speaker 1: very observant, she knew how to hunt. She watched him,
24:01
Speaker 1: she figured out the best way to fight him. And
24:05
Speaker 1: and again I did see this argument that it is
24:09
Speaker 1: only to satisfy as JW's as the whole reason her
24:12
Speaker 1: character exists, Like and so she's faulty automatically because she
24:17
Speaker 1: was just done as a way to appease asws Ah
24:24
Speaker 1: whof um so, which again, who was asking? I know,
24:31
Speaker 1: I know this is like a rhetorical thing, but I'm like,
24:33
Speaker 1: why do you think? Don't get me wrong, we want
24:35
Speaker 1: representation and for the long god, I think more people
24:37
Speaker 1: were happy by the fact that was a Native Indigenous
24:40
Speaker 1: woman playing a character that was fierce, like to see
24:44
Speaker 1: that as well as people were so excited about the
24:46
Speaker 1: fact that the commandity language was being used, uh to
24:50
Speaker 1: help translate this movie, so you know, like dubbing it
24:52
Speaker 1: in that way, and that this is the first time
24:53
Speaker 1: in a long time that this would been able to
24:55
Speaker 1: acknowledge a language as being used for a large motion picture, Like,
25:00
Speaker 1: I don't understand that's the representation we want to see.
25:03
Speaker 1: It's not about a girl fighting an alien. Do we
25:07
Speaker 1: want them to be on top? Absolutely? Do you want
25:10
Speaker 1: to be able to show that they were trained to
25:12
Speaker 1: do things? Yes, of course. Um So I'm really confused
25:16
Speaker 1: by this level of like it's just seemed to be uh,
25:20
Speaker 1: a niche word for for people to get angry at
25:23
Speaker 1: and to move on and to be like this is
25:25
Speaker 1: why and everybody, Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you, and
25:27
Speaker 1: we're like, for those who wants are seeking representation, it's
25:31
Speaker 1: not about what's like that they're in a that they've
25:34
Speaker 1: become the hero. We love that, but the actual representation
25:38
Speaker 1: of being in a positive light is what is the difference.
25:42
Speaker 1: And yes, we want gender for sure, but I love
25:46
Speaker 1: that as a Native woman being represented and getting her accolades,
25:49
Speaker 1: that people are loving her performance, getting so many like things,
25:53
Speaker 1: her being shout out as you know the original women
25:56
Speaker 1: icons like Sigourney Weaver and Lynda Hamilton's who were in
26:00
Speaker 1: both UH Terminator and then also an Alien, knowing that
26:04
Speaker 1: these were fears, women who figured out their environment and
26:07
Speaker 1: save lives. Yes, And I yeah. When I was watching
26:13
Speaker 1: it at your place with the surrounds sound, I remember
26:16
Speaker 1: thinking like, she is so cool. She was just doing
26:18
Speaker 1: all this stuff and I was so impressed. And I
26:24
Speaker 1: do want to expand on your point, why is this happening?
26:28
Speaker 1: What is going on? Um? And one of the big
26:30
Speaker 1: things I think is for so long, so much entertainment
26:35
Speaker 1: has been white men dominant. And I feel like their
26:41
Speaker 1: argument here is stay in your lane. Like I've I'm
26:43
Speaker 1: used to this. I feel like you are coming in
26:46
Speaker 1: and you're asking for too much. And that's the only
26:49
Speaker 1: reason companies are doing it is because you're complaining and
26:53
Speaker 1: you're ruining whatever I love. It's like it feels to me.
26:58
Speaker 1: It's like some people and especially white men, UM, just
27:04
Speaker 1: cannot fathom a woman being the main character or being
27:10
Speaker 1: the hero because they don't see it often and it
27:13
Speaker 1: just breaks their brain and they're like, oh God, this
27:15
Speaker 1: isn't right. Something is wrong here. The only reason she
27:18
Speaker 1: is here is as some like pity thing that a
27:21
Speaker 1: company is doing to get points. Um, she has to
27:26
Speaker 1: be the damsel in distress for the man to save.
27:28
Speaker 1: She has to be the sexual object for men to
27:30
Speaker 1: google at, Like why is what are they doing? I do?
27:36
Speaker 1: I feel like that's I feel like that's a big
27:38
Speaker 1: part of it. I feel like there's also this idea
27:41
Speaker 1: that women can be badass, but only on the side
27:46
Speaker 1: and sexually. Sexually, I think, so don't. Men can never
27:54
Speaker 1: be weaker, they can never be wrong when compared to women.
27:57
Speaker 1: That is not correct in the minds of these people
28:00
Speaker 1: that are so angry. I've literally heard people call someone
28:04
Speaker 1: a Mary Sue because she was funny, and women cannot
28:09
Speaker 1: be funny, So she's a Mary Sue ever, right, And
28:14
Speaker 1: so that brings us to the other thing I think
28:16
Speaker 1: is going on, um, which I hope it's clear, but
28:19
Speaker 1: this is I don't believe these things that it's the
28:22
Speaker 1: arguments I'm hearing. Um, there's no way a woman could
28:25
Speaker 1: be better than a man. And a lot of this
28:28
Speaker 1: stuff that came out about Aria, that came out about
28:31
Speaker 1: Nauru were biological slash physical arguments like she's too small,
28:36
Speaker 1: she can't there's no way. Again, I would argue, we
28:40
Speaker 1: don't do that with men ever, like, even if they
28:43
Speaker 1: might be kind of the same stature, we never knew it.
28:46
Speaker 1: There's plenty of movies about children that are male doing
28:50
Speaker 1: similar things like we just don't see that. And also
28:55
Speaker 1: this whole idea like we didn't see them training enough.
28:58
Speaker 1: That comes up a lot too, as I said, and
29:00
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty telling because, for one, women are
29:03
Speaker 1: so rarely the main character. So yes, in the case
29:06
Speaker 1: of Jenny Weasley, yeah, we don't see her training because
29:08
Speaker 1: she's not the main character. Um. But even beyond that,
29:11
Speaker 1: it feels very much like how we expect women to
29:13
Speaker 1: be far more over qualified for success and we have
29:16
Speaker 1: to prove prove that we are. And even when there
29:22
Speaker 1: is proof, even when there's so much training, the whole
29:25
Speaker 1: plot of Prey, the whole thing with Ari in Game
29:27
Speaker 1: of Thrones, that is not enough. That is not enough,
29:31
Speaker 1: And it again it's a we just don't hear that
29:34
Speaker 1: critique against male characters. We assume James Bond is going
29:38
Speaker 1: to be competent. We just assume we don't have to
29:40
Speaker 1: see the training montage. Some movies might do it but
29:43
Speaker 1: in general it's James Bond. We assume we don't have
29:46
Speaker 1: that question for the gray Man, which you and I
29:48
Speaker 1: have talked about before. This dude comes from gel to
29:51
Speaker 1: Change for four five years and isn't a perfect assassin.
29:53
Speaker 1: I'm like, is that how's that goes? Yes? I mean
29:58
Speaker 1: there's certainly, as I said, some writing choices that maybe
30:03
Speaker 1: don't work aren't the best. But some movies just aren't
30:06
Speaker 1: about that part of it, you know, Like I don't know, so,
30:23
Speaker 1: as I've been alluding to throughout this whole thing, I do.
30:28
Speaker 1: I often get confused when I hear people use the
30:30
Speaker 1: term Mary Sue in the mainstream, because it is so
30:34
Speaker 1: far away from what I understand it and what I
30:38
Speaker 1: have understood it to mean as someone who grew up
30:40
Speaker 1: reading fan fiction, Like if you use that term and
30:44
Speaker 1: you've never read fan fiction, like as a man, I
30:45
Speaker 1: want to be like, I have some stories I want
30:47
Speaker 1: you to read, and then I want to you just
30:49
Speaker 1: tell me if you're going to use Mary Sue again,
30:53
Speaker 1: because I have read some absolutely terrible, just terrible Mary
30:59
Speaker 1: Sue story like you can't even I just can't even
31:04
Speaker 1: put it into words. Sometimes, um, and I I don't.
31:08
Speaker 1: I think that's totally natural, especially as a young writer.
31:12
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with it when
31:16
Speaker 1: people use it in the mainstream. To me, what it
31:19
Speaker 1: feels like is they're using it for just a woman
31:23
Speaker 1: who is a hero or that every woman character. And yeah,
31:27
Speaker 1: I haven't forbid there's any other intersection within that. But
31:31
Speaker 1: it doesn't a lot of times it doesn't make sense
31:32
Speaker 1: to me. It does not. My brain is like, wait,
31:34
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Raise a merry Sue? Have
31:38
Speaker 1: you read? I won't even say that name of the story.
31:41
Speaker 1: I would be terrible, but there's a famous one. But
31:45
Speaker 1: I will give an example of my own. I wrote
31:48
Speaker 1: a Mary, so you're growing up. I'm pretty sure I've
31:50
Speaker 1: talked about it. Where I could sing and I had
31:52
Speaker 1: a beautiful voice, I could play the guitar like no
31:55
Speaker 1: one could play the guitar. I was so emo and
31:58
Speaker 1: so sad, but also so beautiful, and I saved Billy
32:01
Speaker 1: Joe Armstrong's life. Yep. And I think I'm pretty sure
32:05
Speaker 1: they were like, pretty, please be in the band Green
32:08
Speaker 1: Day with us. You want the best, And that is
32:12
Speaker 1: a Mary, in my opinion, that is a true Mary.
32:14
Speaker 1: Sue it helps me work through some stuff. I would
32:18
Speaker 1: never claim it was good writing, but it served its purpose.
32:23
Speaker 1: And then in middle school I wrote a fan fiction
32:25
Speaker 1: about a Jedi. It wasn't really a fan fiction was
32:27
Speaker 1: original story. I guess it was both. It was kind
32:30
Speaker 1: of a mix in. This Jedi was named Tera Polaris,
32:33
Speaker 1: and she was the best Jedi ever. That's it. She
32:36
Speaker 1: was the best. And I dressed up as her at
32:39
Speaker 1: Halloween and I told everyone who asked me, are you
32:42
Speaker 1: Obi one Kenobi? I was like, nope, I am Terra Polaris,
32:45
Speaker 1: who is way better than Obi Wan. Yes. And on
32:52
Speaker 1: top of that, like part of the fund of writing
32:55
Speaker 1: fan fiction is that it doesn't necessarily have to be
32:57
Speaker 1: from a critical standpoint good. But I also think it's
33:02
Speaker 1: worth questioning who gets to decide what good is anyway?
33:05
Speaker 1: But yeah, it can be fan fiction could be something
33:08
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense or is hasty or guess
33:10
Speaker 1: to the point, everyone wants to without doing all the
33:12
Speaker 1: work to do it. But it's free, and we're already
33:16
Speaker 1: entering a sandbox where a lot of the work is done.
33:18
Speaker 1: It's a hobby. Don't get me wrong. I have read
33:21
Speaker 1: some fan fiction, even fan fiction with mary Sues, it's
33:24
Speaker 1: better than a lot of the stuff I'm seeing, But
33:26
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to
33:28
Speaker 1: be that. And I also think like we have a
33:32
Speaker 1: very long history that we've talked about a lot on
33:34
Speaker 1: the show of making fun of teenage girls and things
33:37
Speaker 1: that they like and using the term mary Sue, which
33:41
Speaker 1: does come from fan fiction, which is largely written by
33:45
Speaker 1: young girls, women and marginalized folks, using that term as
33:48
Speaker 1: a dismissive insult for anything that's bad or unbelievable, um
33:53
Speaker 1: for a character that couldn't possibly be that good. I
33:57
Speaker 1: think that's pretty telling. You are dreaming. If you think
34:01
Speaker 1: you could be the main character or the star, it's
34:03
Speaker 1: just not possible. You're silly for thinking it. That seems
34:07
Speaker 1: to be kind of intertwined through when people use that.
34:11
Speaker 1: I think that is part of what is going on
34:14
Speaker 1: and what they're thinking. And yeah, like I said, I
34:17
Speaker 1: can defend a mary Sue. In my opinion, young girls
34:20
Speaker 1: or even women writing mary sus that just makes sense
34:22
Speaker 1: to me. It's nice to write a story where everyone
34:25
Speaker 1: loves you and you're good at everything, even if you're
34:29
Speaker 1: a bit clumsy or there's some endearing trait that is
34:33
Speaker 1: a flaw in heavy quotes. It's nice to think that
34:37
Speaker 1: you're beautiful and desired and important. And to me, writing
34:40
Speaker 1: something like that in the face of all of this
34:43
Speaker 1: harmful and toxic messaging that we get about our bodies,
34:47
Speaker 1: um and about what we can be UM, that just
34:52
Speaker 1: makes sense to me. It just makes sense. It's one
34:55
Speaker 1: way of coping with all of that and trying to
34:58
Speaker 1: convince yourself that you are were the and lovable and
35:01
Speaker 1: all of those things, even if it's a struggle for
35:03
Speaker 1: you to believe it. And I do think there is
35:06
Speaker 1: an aspect of needing validation from others involved in it,
35:10
Speaker 1: but that also makes sense to me. Is that the
35:12
Speaker 1: healthiest thing. Not necessarily, but I think it makes sense
35:15
Speaker 1: and I hopefully you can like write it and sort
35:18
Speaker 1: of grow from that. And Mary Sus can be great
35:21
Speaker 1: fun characters. Um, even in even in this mainstream way,
35:27
Speaker 1: if we could remove the sexism, like men don't have
35:31
Speaker 1: to be like they can have quote bad movies and
35:35
Speaker 1: they're fun and enjoyable, but women you want and done.
35:38
Speaker 1: Um if you have one movie that doesn't do so
35:42
Speaker 1: great at the box office, and even then too bad.
35:46
Speaker 1: But yeah, I find it though, the sexist, dismissive way
35:49
Speaker 1: it's used in the mainstream media pretty gross and harmful
35:53
Speaker 1: and in my opinion, incorrect. I I think stories can
35:57
Speaker 1: have a Mary Sue and still be enjoyable and worthwhile.
36:00
Speaker 1: I think we've been enjoying them with male characters for
36:02
Speaker 1: a long time and have said nothing, have complained not
36:06
Speaker 1: to ones about it, or even if we do, we're like, well,
36:09
Speaker 1: that movie didn't have the best character development, but I
36:11
Speaker 1: liked it as opposed to that's a mary Sue and
36:13
Speaker 1: it's useless. Maybe maybe Mary Sue is just someone who
36:17
Speaker 1: is good at what she does, whether in the fictional
36:22
Speaker 1: or the real world. Maybe it's about time we do
36:25
Speaker 1: reclaim this um. And you know, sometimes it's just a
36:30
Speaker 1: story asking the audience to suspend our disbelief and have fun,
36:33
Speaker 1: which again is something we've done a long time for
36:36
Speaker 1: male characters but seem to want to refuse to do
36:39
Speaker 1: for women. And that's my soapbox. UM. I have a
36:46
Speaker 1: lot of thoughts about the marys too, um. But yeah,
36:50
Speaker 1: I think there is a lot going on here, and
36:52
Speaker 1: I I guess my overall like t L d R
36:55
Speaker 1: is when people use it in the mainstream media. What
36:57
Speaker 1: they mean is just a main character who is a
36:59
Speaker 1: woman a lot of times, and that's it. Who has
37:02
Speaker 1: some abilities. End of story. So thank you for hearing
37:07
Speaker 1: me out. I go watch it now. Yes, yes, yes,
37:12
Speaker 1: it was fun. I promised not to annoy you about
37:14
Speaker 1: how I can speak a little bit of French about
37:18
Speaker 1: it last night, so I don't believe you loved it. Yes, well,
37:26
Speaker 1: thank you as well. Listeners as always, and we would
37:29
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can email us that
37:32
Speaker 1: Stuff and your mom Stuff at ihart me dot com.
37:34
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast
37:36
Speaker 1: or on Instagram at stuff I Never told you. Thanks
37:37
Speaker 1: it's always to our super producer Christina one of the best,
37:41
Speaker 1: one of the absolute best. And thanks to you for listening.
37:44
Speaker 1: Steffener told me his production I Heart Radio. For more
37:46
Speaker 1: podcast from my Heart Radio. You can listen to the
37:48
Speaker 1: Heartradio app, Apple podcast, or you listen to your favorite shows.