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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Mystery of Ana Walshe · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Sometimes you sit back as
0:22
Speaker 1: a crime scene investigator and you try to observe things
0:26
Speaker 1: from the perspective of a clinician, somebody that's kind of cold,
0:31
Speaker 1: that goes in and just wants the facts. But there
0:35
Speaker 1: are those cases that I don't know, tease your humanity
0:40
Speaker 1: out of you at the scene, those things that you
0:43
Speaker 1: look at them and you think, how in the world
0:47
Speaker 1: could this possibly have happened. Today, we're going to talk
0:53
Speaker 1: about a mother and a wife by the name of
1:00
Speaker 1: on A wash We're going to talk about her disappearance,
1:04
Speaker 1: her possible homicide, and her dismemberment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
1:10
Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks. Joining me today is my friend
1:19
Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories. When Nancy Grace, Jackie,
1:25
Speaker 1: I know that you, like much of the country, has
1:27
Speaker 1: been following this case or sometime. I think that we're
1:30
Speaker 1: left again with a case where we've gotten more questions
1:34
Speaker 1: and answers. What do you think about that? I think
1:38
Speaker 1: you are absolutely right. The disappearance of on A Walsh
1:41
Speaker 1: has so many more questions than answers, just like Jennifer
1:47
Speaker 1: dulos Up North. This woman disappeared, I mean literally disappeared.
1:53
Speaker 1: One day, she was here, next day, cannot find her.
1:57
Speaker 1: There's a lot of similarities between these two case for that.
2:00
Speaker 1: But on a Walsh left her home. She was seen
2:04
Speaker 1: leaving her house with her bags in hand. She worked
2:07
Speaker 1: at a different location. She was a real estate professional.
2:12
Speaker 1: She had taken on a new job in the Boston area,
2:15
Speaker 1: and she actually traveled from her home in Massachusetts weekly
2:20
Speaker 1: to go for this position. So she was last seen
2:24
Speaker 1: leaving her home with bags in hand, according to her husband.
2:28
Speaker 1: And what happened to her after that is the question.
2:32
Speaker 1: She has not been seen. She did not make the flight,
2:34
Speaker 1: she did not make her new job, so they missed
2:38
Speaker 1: her in the office. That's when the questions began. That's
2:43
Speaker 1: where our investigation needs to begin. How do we start
2:48
Speaker 1: that timeline, Joe, I don't know that it's necessarily starting
2:51
Speaker 1: the timeline as much as it is location. Now I
2:54
Speaker 1: know that those two things are kind of married together.
2:57
Speaker 1: You've got a husband that's actually stating, and he was
2:59
Speaker 1: very specific. He said she left the house in either
3:04
Speaker 1: an uber or left. Let's back up to that, because
3:08
Speaker 1: now you've got again here we go again. Jackie, we've
3:10
Speaker 1: got a digital footprint, because if you were alleging that
3:14
Speaker 1: she left in an uber or a left and so
3:17
Speaker 1: not only do you have a digital footprint, you're what
3:19
Speaker 1: your alleging means that you would have a physical witness
3:23
Speaker 1: to her getting into the vehicle with you to be
3:26
Speaker 1: transported somewhere. So if that's what is being put forth,
3:31
Speaker 1: then that would be solid information to go on. But
3:35
Speaker 1: there's no indication that she was seen by anybody getting
3:40
Speaker 1: into the vehicle to go somewhere. So where do we begin, Well,
3:44
Speaker 1: we begin the home. We begin where an individual lives,
3:49
Speaker 1: where they're domiciled. You know, you have to think that
3:52
Speaker 1: that's the last place she was seen. So what could
3:54
Speaker 1: have occurred within that home that would have essentially led
4:00
Speaker 1: to her total and complete disappearance, Like you mentioned just
4:03
Speaker 1: a second ago, it seemingly just vanishes off the face
4:06
Speaker 1: of the planet. Well, you peg that one pretty well, Joe,
4:09
Speaker 1: because now we know that Anna Walsh's husband, Brian has
4:14
Speaker 1: been charged in her disappearance. The beginning of that suspicion
4:19
Speaker 1: from police began in the basement of the home, it did,
4:23
Speaker 1: and you begin to look for things like physical evidence
4:26
Speaker 1: that can begin to turn up. One of the things
4:30
Speaker 1: with death investigation, and I think that for many reasons,
4:34
Speaker 1: it goes back to this. Certainly, people in literature use
4:37
Speaker 1: this a lot as a device. You look for blood,
4:40
Speaker 1: don't you. Blood is always associated with either the loss
4:44
Speaker 1: of life or at least the diminishment of life to
4:48
Speaker 1: some degree, particularly if you wind up would say, for instance,
4:52
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of blood that you fund at the scene.
4:55
Speaker 1: And there's a term that's used. We've talked about it
4:57
Speaker 1: before on bodybacks, but it bears repeating, and that is
5:01
Speaker 1: the idea of the amount of blood that you have
5:04
Speaker 1: at a scene gives the appearance of an event being
5:07
Speaker 1: incompatible with life. However, at least to this point, I
5:12
Speaker 1: don't know that there is that much blood evidence. Although
5:16
Speaker 1: there was blood evidence found at the home that would
5:19
Speaker 1: give an indication that something very troublesome happened there in
5:23
Speaker 1: a basement. I would think that a bloody knife found
5:26
Speaker 1: in the basement would indeed give an indication that something
5:31
Speaker 1: bad happened. From a forensic standpoint, we hear about this
5:34
Speaker 1: a lot in cases. There's a couple of cases out
5:37
Speaker 1: there right now where I think that many times the
5:40
Speaker 1: general public begins to think about, well, you have blood,
5:43
Speaker 1: so therefore you can get an arrest warrant and arrest somebody.
5:50
Speaker 1: That's not the way it works, not in forensics at least,
5:53
Speaker 1: if you find something that you believe is in fact blood,
5:57
Speaker 1: you have to verify that, don't you. You have to
5:59
Speaker 1: do what is referred to as presumptive testing on an
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Speaker 1: item that might have blood on the surface, say for instance,
6:06
Speaker 1: with a knife, or if you have a piece of
6:08
Speaker 1: cloth or even a droplet on the floor. You cannot
6:10
Speaker 1: just simply assume that that is first off, that it
6:14
Speaker 1: is blood. So that's our first step. We have to
6:16
Speaker 1: go in and take a look at that sample and
6:19
Speaker 1: see if it is in fact blood, and then from
6:22
Speaker 1: that point you can move on to the next level,
6:25
Speaker 1: which is where we're going to take a look at
6:28
Speaker 1: it from the perspective of, well, we verified that it
6:31
Speaker 1: is blood, but is it human blood, because you can
6:34
Speaker 1: have animal blood as well. If you have that's in
6:36
Speaker 1: the home. There's a couple of cases out there where
6:39
Speaker 1: people were deer hunters, they track blood into the house
6:42
Speaker 1: and it turned out not to be human it was
6:44
Speaker 1: actually dear blood. So you have to be able to
6:47
Speaker 1: whittle that down. Well, if you establish that it is
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Speaker 1: in fact human blood, you go to the next level
6:53
Speaker 1: of testing, which of course begins to lead into well
6:56
Speaker 1: typing the blood, what blood grouping does it fall into?
7:00
Speaker 1: And if you have a missing person, if you try
7:03
Speaker 1: to say, okay, well what blood group would on a
7:08
Speaker 1: fall into and hopefully you can establish that, and then
7:11
Speaker 1: of course then you're going to have a DNA fingerprint
7:14
Speaker 1: as well. Relative to that, What about the age of
7:17
Speaker 1: the blood, Joe, I know you've probably told me this before.
7:21
Speaker 1: Can they tell did this happen last week, has happened
7:25
Speaker 1: five years ago? What can they tell? Blood is a
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Speaker 1: curious substance because it's multilayered. It contains several elements to
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Speaker 1: it that actually make it blood. And much of this
7:39
Speaker 1: relative to attempting to determine how old it is, it's
7:43
Speaker 1: going to be heavily depended upon not so much time
7:47
Speaker 1: as it is exposure. What this sample has been exposed
7:53
Speaker 1: to over a period of time. You can go back
7:55
Speaker 1: and take a look at samples from long long ago.
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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, famously, we're able to take
8:00
Speaker 1: a sample of President Lincoln's blood and actually do a
8:03
Speaker 1: DNA profile on it. So, yeah, you can take historic
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Speaker 1: samples even and essentially profile them. So in a case
8:10
Speaker 1: that is this fresh, Remember Anna has only been missing
8:14
Speaker 1: since January the first, so it's not like we've got
8:16
Speaker 1: someone that has been missing for six months, a year,
8:19
Speaker 1: or two years. This sample would still be viable at
8:23
Speaker 1: this point in tom and I think that that's what
8:25
Speaker 1: they're dealing with. But when the officers came into the
8:28
Speaker 1: basement and they see a substance that they think is blood,
8:31
Speaker 1: and given the amount of time that Anna has been missing,
8:34
Speaker 1: it would have more than likely been dried. So when
8:37
Speaker 1: they see that based on the color, can they look
8:40
Speaker 1: at that and go, oh, that happened yesterday, Oh that
8:43
Speaker 1: happened two weeks ago, Oh that happened six years ago.
8:46
Speaker 1: How does what they see? What clues does that give
8:51
Speaker 1: an officer. There's a certain level of dehydration that occurs
8:55
Speaker 1: with blood, depended upon how long it's been down And
8:57
Speaker 1: again it's completely depended upon environment mental factors. And you
9:01
Speaker 1: can kind of eyeball it and get an idea that
9:04
Speaker 1: if you've got a sample that has gotten to the
9:07
Speaker 1: point where it has gone from brilliant red to brown,
9:11
Speaker 1: and then there's another phase where it will essentially go
9:14
Speaker 1: to this kind of brown cracked appearance where it and
9:18
Speaker 1: this is why this is so difficult when you're eyeballing
9:22
Speaker 1: what you think is a blood sample, because it can
9:24
Speaker 1: actually look like chocolate, believe it or not, and it
9:27
Speaker 1: goes from this kind of brown cracked appearance to flaking.
9:30
Speaker 1: But here's the problem. There is no and I repeat,
9:34
Speaker 1: there is no definitive time marker that you can place
9:39
Speaker 1: on that where it is an absolute okay, you're going
9:42
Speaker 1: to have a lot of wiggle room. And one of
9:45
Speaker 1: the reasons is is that you cannot account for all
9:48
Speaker 1: of the environmental influences that have taken place in surrounding
9:52
Speaker 1: that environment. We're talking about Massachusetts. Yeah, it would be
9:55
Speaker 1: called outside. But conversely, are you running the furnace in
9:59
Speaker 1: the house. You've got the sink cranked up so that
10:01
Speaker 1: it's so hot in there that it's going to cause
10:03
Speaker 1: changes in any kind of biological element that you have
10:06
Speaker 1: have around. If you've got a garbage that's got I
10:09
Speaker 1: don't know, a piece of chicken in it, for instance,
10:11
Speaker 1: and you've got the heat jacked up in the house,
10:14
Speaker 1: it's going to promote the decomposition of that piece of chicken,
10:17
Speaker 1: whereas if it was cooler, it would preserve it longer.
10:19
Speaker 1: So it's it's going to be completely and totally environmentally dependent.
10:41
Speaker 1: You've got a missing wife. As an investigator, where do
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Speaker 1: your eyes go first? I'm not talking about at the scene.
10:50
Speaker 1: I'm talking about information. I'm talking about where are you
10:55
Speaker 1: going to go? What's the well spring of data here
10:58
Speaker 1: to find out what exactly happening in this case? Jackie,
11:02
Speaker 1: I think that those answers are going to rest with
11:04
Speaker 1: a husband. They are, and police again have taken the
11:07
Speaker 1: husband into custody. And it's strange to me. If you
11:11
Speaker 1: look at what friends, neighbor's family say about this man.
11:17
Speaker 1: They all received a strange vibe about him. He didn't
11:21
Speaker 1: want his picture taken, he wasn't friendly the town there
11:26
Speaker 1: where the Walshes lived. People in the shops there, shop
11:30
Speaker 1: owners like pizza parlor and another restaurant there say when
11:34
Speaker 1: they came in that Anna was extremely quiet, she didn't
11:37
Speaker 1: speak a lot, and that he as well, just kind
11:41
Speaker 1: of gave off a creepy vibe, is how they describe it.
11:44
Speaker 1: So she goes missing. The police find blood in the
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Speaker 1: home that they now believe shows that he murdered and dismembered. Anna,
11:56
Speaker 1: where do you go from here? Joe, her body is missing.
12:00
Speaker 1: I mean you can get rid of a body a
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Speaker 1: thousand ways. How do you track what he did next?
12:07
Speaker 1: When you go to the scene and you begin to
12:11
Speaker 1: dig around as the scene and you suddenly realize that
12:14
Speaker 1: you don't have what's referred to as a corpus delecti,
12:17
Speaker 1: that is the body of the evidence, you're going to
12:19
Speaker 1: have to expand your search from there. If the police
12:22
Speaker 1: were to suspect that the husband was involved in any level,
12:25
Speaker 1: they have to begin to track his movements. You know,
12:28
Speaker 1: you had mentioned, and rightly so. Just a moment ago,
12:31
Speaker 1: they found this knife in the basement. And one little
12:36
Speaker 1: piece to this that we didn't mention is that this
12:39
Speaker 1: knife was bent. You get a bent knife and it's
12:43
Speaker 1: gotten blood on it. That means that probably you could
12:48
Speaker 1: make an intellectual leap scientifically and say this knife was
12:52
Speaker 1: probably involved in some kind of vigorous behavior, that the
12:56
Speaker 1: knife was not necessarily meant for this purpose. And when
13:00
Speaker 1: you begin to think about taking a part of body,
13:03
Speaker 1: which is what the police are at least thinking has happened,
13:06
Speaker 1: that goes to this idea of you're in a fever,
13:10
Speaker 1: you're using the tools that you have at hand, and
13:13
Speaker 1: the tool is not meant for the job, So therefore
13:15
Speaker 1: it's going to bend and it's going to potentially break.
13:19
Speaker 1: In this case, it didn't. But what other elements are
13:21
Speaker 1: you looking for? Well, there's a rug that they've apparently
13:25
Speaker 1: found that had blood on it. And here's one more thing,
13:30
Speaker 1: and this is key. There's evidence that the husband had
13:38
Speaker 1: gone to a store and it's purchased about Get this,
13:42
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you spent on cleaning supplies, Jackie.
13:45
Speaker 1: He spent four hundred dollars allegedly on cleaning supplies. You
13:49
Speaker 1: know how much cleaning supplies do you need in order
13:53
Speaker 1: to accomplish a task? That gives you an indication that maybe,
13:57
Speaker 1: in this fevered state, he's just a ting to cover
14:00
Speaker 1: all of his bases. He's going to use everything that
14:02
Speaker 1: he possibly can in order to clean up this mess,
14:05
Speaker 1: and it would have been a big, big mess. Well.
14:08
Speaker 1: As police continued their investigation into things that Brian Walsh
14:14
Speaker 1: had bought, we also find that he bought a hack saw.
14:19
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about the use of hack saws
14:22
Speaker 1: in the past on bodybags. When you begin to look
14:26
Speaker 1: at this in total, you think, well, what's the purpose,
14:29
Speaker 1: Why would you choose this particular instrument, Why would you
14:32
Speaker 1: bring it to bear as a post to say, for instance,
14:34
Speaker 1: a carpenter saw or limb saw. With hack saws, they
14:38
Speaker 1: have different blades that can be applied to them. Now
14:41
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily know at this point in time the
14:45
Speaker 1: specifics about the type of blade that was on this
14:50
Speaker 1: particular hack saw, but it is essentially something that you
14:54
Speaker 1: can work with in a very tight, fine space. It's
14:58
Speaker 1: not going to leave as big I can mess. Say,
15:01
Speaker 1: for instance, if you really go over the top and
15:03
Speaker 1: you're using some kind of electrical saw, a sawsaw or
15:06
Speaker 1: maybe a circular saw and this sort of thing so
15:08
Speaker 1: you can kind of keep it contained. You have to think, well,
15:12
Speaker 1: was he thinking about this? Was he thinking about using
15:15
Speaker 1: a hack saw where you can kind of diminish the
15:18
Speaker 1: amount of evidence that you're going to leave behind or not.
15:21
Speaker 1: And that's kind of a fascinating point here. I'm going
15:24
Speaker 1: to ask you something that's kind of morbid. But I
15:26
Speaker 1: think then again, what we talk about is kind of morbid.
15:29
Speaker 1: If you were going to dismember a body, what is
15:35
Speaker 1: the end result going to be if you do it
15:39
Speaker 1: when the body has only been deceased for a couple hours,
15:43
Speaker 1: as opposed to if the body has been deceased for days. Well,
15:48
Speaker 1: ask an excellent question. Here's what my thought is on this.
15:52
Speaker 1: First off, you've got two sides to think about here.
15:55
Speaker 1: If it is immediately afterwards, the blood that remains in
16:00
Speaker 1: the body is not going to be See how can
16:04
Speaker 1: I term this? Not as viscous or thick as it
16:08
Speaker 1: would be after the body has been decomposing for a while,
16:13
Speaker 1: and so therefore it's going to be in more of
16:15
Speaker 1: a liquid state, closer to life than it is to
16:18
Speaker 1: a decomposition, an advanced decompositional state. So that's going to
16:22
Speaker 1: create a problem. You'll have more blood to clean up,
16:25
Speaker 1: if you will. All right now, we're not even talking
16:28
Speaker 1: about any kind of injuries that this individual would have
16:31
Speaker 1: sustained prior to death, because that if you're talking about
16:34
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds or stab wounds and that sort of thing,
16:36
Speaker 1: that's a completely different set of problems that you have there.
16:40
Speaker 1: We're just merely talking about the dismemberment of human remains.
16:44
Speaker 1: So in the early state like this, you can still
16:47
Speaker 1: have quite a bit of blood seeping out, and so
16:50
Speaker 1: that is going to pose problem for anybody that is
16:53
Speaker 1: doing a dismemberment like this. And so you'll have blood everywhere,
16:57
Speaker 1: You'll have contact blood obviously on the strument that you're using.
17:00
Speaker 1: The individual cannot escape this event without having blood all
17:04
Speaker 1: over them. Even if they're wearing gloves, you're still going
17:07
Speaker 1: to get blood on you. Because this is the thing
17:10
Speaker 1: about it, is that when perpetrator shows up to a
17:13
Speaker 1: scene with let's say, for instance, a hack saw, all right,
17:18
Speaker 1: and a knife that you might use in your kitchen,
17:22
Speaker 1: they got the tools to use, and my suspicion is
17:25
Speaker 1: is that they don't have the anatomical knowledge in order
17:28
Speaker 1: to facilitate this. We have specific instruments that we use
17:31
Speaker 1: for these purposes. That's certainly something that you have to
17:35
Speaker 1: factor in. You're going to have quite a big mess
17:38
Speaker 1: early on. Now, the further you move down range and say,
17:41
Speaker 1: you ask the question, Jackie, if you have a body
17:43
Speaker 1: that is in moderate to advanced state of decomposition, you're
17:47
Speaker 1: going to have to deal with smell. You're going to
17:49
Speaker 1: have to deal with the changes in the tissue itself.
17:52
Speaker 1: But I guess I hate to use the term upside.
17:56
Speaker 1: But if there is an upside with dismemberment of decomposing remain,
18:00
Speaker 1: the joints become much more malleable because of the breakdown
18:05
Speaker 1: of the tissues, all the connective tissues and everything that
18:07
Speaker 1: are in there. So if you go into, say, for instance,
18:10
Speaker 1: a shoulder joint, or to the elbow or to the wrist,
18:13
Speaker 1: those are going to be much easier to access and
18:17
Speaker 1: kind of take apart if you will. It's just that
18:20
Speaker 1: you're going to have to deal with all of the
18:22
Speaker 1: problems that come along in the messiness of the decomposing body.
18:45
Speaker 1: For investigators, it's certainly one thing when you have an
18:50
Speaker 1: intact human remain. I'm not going to say it's easy,
18:54
Speaker 1: because that's kind of a diminishment of what all is
18:58
Speaker 1: involved in a death investigation. How Ever, I think that
19:01
Speaker 1: we can all agree on the fact that if you're
19:03
Speaker 1: talking about a case that involves possible dismemberment, what's happened,
19:09
Speaker 1: What's happened to all of those various dismembered remains. Are
19:13
Speaker 1: they in one location or they spread out over a
19:17
Speaker 1: vast area, And that's certainly something that the police are
19:20
Speaker 1: faced with right now. Jackie, this case reminds me so
19:23
Speaker 1: much of the Jennifer Dulos case. Mom ghost, missing husband
19:28
Speaker 1: is arrested. He is caught on videotape and with evidence,
19:35
Speaker 1: putting evidence into dumpsters and trash cans around the city
19:42
Speaker 1: and away from the home. So my question is, and
19:47
Speaker 1: again in the Dulos case, the idea of dismemberment was
19:50
Speaker 1: also brought into play. How do you start this kind
19:54
Speaker 1: of an investigation where you believe the body has been
19:57
Speaker 1: dismembered and taken to separate location. The dumpster at Brian
20:02
Speaker 1: Walsh's mother's apartment was searched, so your area of search
20:09
Speaker 1: has become massive, And at what point do you stop
20:13
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, sorry, we've gone out fifteen miles. We're
20:16
Speaker 1: not going out any farther. Very difficult. It's kind of
20:19
Speaker 1: like stopping a battleship. You can't snap your fingers and
20:22
Speaker 1: have it stop. Right now. I'm thinking about what kind
20:26
Speaker 1: of logistics are involved in is for the police, and
20:28
Speaker 1: I've been involved in cases where I've had to go
20:30
Speaker 1: to landfills and they are an absolute nightmare. I mean,
20:33
Speaker 1: it is a nightmare. You remember when where kids we
20:35
Speaker 1: used to play that game called red Light green light.
20:38
Speaker 1: Everybody would be moving in the yard. You'd be all
20:41
Speaker 1: together and somebody say green light, red light, and you'd
20:43
Speaker 1: have to stop. We're trying to stop the process of Okay,
20:48
Speaker 1: I'll repeat it. The process of processing garbage is monumental.
20:54
Speaker 1: Where are the receptacles? And then on what kind of
20:59
Speaker 1: schedule are the trucks on they're going to pick this
21:02
Speaker 1: stuff up? And then once the trucks, if they're serviced
21:06
Speaker 1: by specific service, what landfill are they going to go to?
21:09
Speaker 1: Because various different locations and depended upon the region of
21:13
Speaker 1: the country you're in, they might be serviced by private companies,
21:16
Speaker 1: might not necessarily the city of the county that's doing this,
21:18
Speaker 1: and so they have different areas they're going to go to.
21:21
Speaker 1: And again that adds another layer to this. So from
21:24
Speaker 1: that moment time we do have a starting place. We
21:26
Speaker 1: have obviously the washes trash. And then you were referring
21:30
Speaker 1: to the husband's mother's location. Where would her trash go?
21:35
Speaker 1: How would you track that down? Oh, and by the way,
21:39
Speaker 1: between his house, the washer's home, and his mother's home,
21:45
Speaker 1: where else is there that he could have gone to?
21:47
Speaker 1: Or did he take some kind of detour in going
21:50
Speaker 1: there is there some kind of other location where items
21:53
Speaker 1: could be deposited along the way, and all of that
21:56
Speaker 1: has to be factored in. And listen, you've got a
22:00
Speaker 1: very tight window to do this in because if this
22:03
Speaker 1: stuff makes it out to a landfill, Jackie, they put
22:07
Speaker 1: it out into grids, and those grids are subsequently covered up.
22:11
Speaker 1: You've got this stratification that's going on with this very
22:14
Speaker 1: very fragile biological evidence that begins to break down very quickly.
22:19
Speaker 1: I'm going to throw one more thing out that i
22:20
Speaker 1: want our listeners to understand. When you are in a landfill,
22:25
Speaker 1: this is a highly aerobic environment, which means that you've
22:30
Speaker 1: got a lot of microscopic activity going on, and it's
22:35
Speaker 1: made that way so that things break down, and that's
22:39
Speaker 1: why they periodically turn the trash out there. They're always
22:42
Speaker 1: running over it with these big trucks and equipment and stuff.
22:46
Speaker 1: So time is of the essence. If you don't capture
22:49
Speaker 1: it at that moment time, your entire case could be
22:52
Speaker 1: lost and all of the physical evidence can be lost
22:54
Speaker 1: as well. You brought up a really good point talking
22:57
Speaker 1: about this time factor in finding things in the trash
23:03
Speaker 1: and how important it is we can see this in
23:05
Speaker 1: the Idaho murders case with Ryan Coberger. He was caught
23:11
Speaker 1: putting trash into his neighbor's ben at four o'clock in
23:17
Speaker 1: the morning, wearing gloves. It just so happened that the
23:20
Speaker 1: police were staking him out and caught him saw him
23:24
Speaker 1: doing that, so that they were able to retrieve that
23:27
Speaker 1: in case there was any evidence in there. The idea
23:31
Speaker 1: that that's a possibility makes a forensic experts job a
23:37
Speaker 1: thousand times more difficult. How do you say, okay, check
23:41
Speaker 1: this neighbor, but don't check that neighbor, or do you
23:44
Speaker 1: just check them all? Oh? Well, I think that a
23:46
Speaker 1: lot of this goes back to the police having to
23:50
Speaker 1: look at who their primary suspect is and what kind
23:53
Speaker 1: of behaviors is this individual normally engaged in. Here's kind
23:58
Speaker 1: of a salient point I believe people have, as you
24:02
Speaker 1: well reported, Jackie, earlier, you talked about how people viewed
24:06
Speaker 1: him as kind of the standoffice figure. The question would
24:09
Speaker 1: be for me is who did he talk to? Not
24:11
Speaker 1: where didn't he go, but where did he go on
24:14
Speaker 1: a regular basis? And that's within a comfort zone for
24:19
Speaker 1: this individual. Most people that perpetrate a crime and they're
24:23
Speaker 1: not arch criminal out there, which most of those types
24:26
Speaker 1: of people don't truly exist. They do in comic books.
24:30
Speaker 1: But when you find yourself in the midst of having
24:33
Speaker 1: been involved, allegedly involved in something so horrific, you need
24:38
Speaker 1: those things that are gonna you're gonna feel comfortable with,
24:42
Speaker 1: and you're gonna feel most comfortable going to locations that
24:45
Speaker 1: you frequent, things that you pass by every day that
24:47
Speaker 1: you would see, Hey, look there's a dumpster behind that
24:50
Speaker 1: convenience store, or hey look there's a trash can. This
24:53
Speaker 1: person never takes in their trash can, just to leave
24:55
Speaker 1: it out there all week long. It's always sits by
24:58
Speaker 1: the road, and well, arbitrarily throw this and my gosh,
25:00
Speaker 1: all we have to do is think back, Jackie. This
25:03
Speaker 1: is one of our earliest cases that we covered on
25:04
Speaker 1: body backs, and that was infamous Ingrid and Lend case
25:08
Speaker 1: out of Seattle, where she'd met this guy on a
25:11
Speaker 1: dating app and he brought her home that evening and
25:15
Speaker 1: wound up killing her and actually dismembering her body in
25:19
Speaker 1: a bathtub in that house. And he went to places
25:23
Speaker 1: that were convenient for him along his route, and he
25:27
Speaker 1: actually deposited parts of her body all over the city
25:30
Speaker 1: in recyclable trash cans. It just so happened. I think
25:34
Speaker 1: that they would have had a hard time with this case,
25:37
Speaker 1: even more difficult than they wound up having if this
25:39
Speaker 1: random citizen had not walked out to their trash can
25:42
Speaker 1: to retrieve it and notice it was heavy, looked down
25:45
Speaker 1: in there and can you imagine this looks down in
25:47
Speaker 1: there and discovers I think it was a footsticking out.
25:51
Speaker 1: So you just never know about what a perpetrator is
25:54
Speaker 1: going to do. They're going to do I think those
25:56
Speaker 1: things that make them feel most comfortable, because this is
25:59
Speaker 1: already comp located enough when you begin to think about
26:02
Speaker 1: what kind of intellectual energy has to go into this
26:05
Speaker 1: in order to facilitate this pull it off, and you've
26:08
Speaker 1: always got it in the back of your mind. I
26:10
Speaker 1: would imagine, as somebody is always watching, that they're going
26:14
Speaker 1: to get onto you, that you're going to leave a
26:17
Speaker 1: trace behind, and of course they always do. But going
26:21
Speaker 1: back to my question, I think I'm kind of hung
26:23
Speaker 1: up on the fact that while you say most people
26:27
Speaker 1: go where they're comfortable, what they know when you've got
26:30
Speaker 1: that one person Israel Keys, for example, travel the country,
26:35
Speaker 1: setting up kill kits in strange locations. So you've always
26:40
Speaker 1: got that one person that goes, I'm smarter than everybody else,
26:43
Speaker 1: And then you have to worry is he really smarter
26:46
Speaker 1: than anybody else? And does that mean he's going to
26:48
Speaker 1: drive two hours away to dispose of a body. And
26:52
Speaker 1: this ties back into my original question, how far out?
26:56
Speaker 1: At what point in an investigation five miles, ten miles,
27:00
Speaker 1: fifteen miles from home do you say, Okay, we've gone
27:04
Speaker 1: out far enough. I'll plainly say that I don't know.
27:07
Speaker 1: I don't know how you take the measure of that
27:09
Speaker 1: as an investigator. As much as I hate to say
27:12
Speaker 1: this as a scientist, some of it just relies on intuition.
27:15
Speaker 1: I hate that term. I hated when it comes. I
27:18
Speaker 1: hate things like intuition and gut feeling because I think
27:21
Speaker 1: that they'll fail you most of the time. But in
27:24
Speaker 1: this particular case, the police will exhaust to every possibility
27:28
Speaker 1: that they can, and at some point in time you
27:31
Speaker 1: just have to call it quits. But you know, you
27:32
Speaker 1: want to talk about leaving a trail behind. When the
27:36
Speaker 1: police actually got a hold of one of the I
27:38
Speaker 1: think it was the iPad that was found in the
27:41
Speaker 1: home per search warrant. This is what was left behind
27:45
Speaker 1: on the iPad. Just listen. This is kind of these
27:49
Speaker 1: little bulleted points that I have here. Ten ways to
27:53
Speaker 1: dismember a body? Does baking soda make a body smell good?
27:58
Speaker 1: How long is someone missing before you can inherit? Can
28:03
Speaker 1: you throw away body parts? Can you be charged with
28:07
Speaker 1: a murder without a body dismemberment? And the best ways
28:12
Speaker 1: to dispose of a body? A little light Saturday afternoon reading. Huh?
28:17
Speaker 1: You know who searches these things out? And when you
28:20
Speaker 1: begin to couple that with her disappearance in well, and
28:24
Speaker 1: don't forget the fact, Joe, don't forget the fact that
28:26
Speaker 1: she had said before that her husband had threatened to
28:30
Speaker 1: kill her. Yeah, and you know her mother, who I
28:33
Speaker 1: think is from Eastern Europe maybe Serbia, was not even
28:36
Speaker 1: aware of this, and that came out later that he
28:40
Speaker 1: had threatened her, I think, many many years ago, and
28:43
Speaker 1: the mother was astounded to find this out. And who knows,
28:47
Speaker 1: you know, what might be the motivation behind all of this.
28:50
Speaker 1: And again, he's innocent until proven guilty. He's merely been
28:54
Speaker 1: charged at this point in time. But you have to
28:56
Speaker 1: look at the totality of the circumstances and who would
28:59
Speaker 1: have had the opportunity in order to perpetrate such a
29:02
Speaker 1: heinous crime. I look at this and I begin to think,
29:06
Speaker 1: deep down in my heart of hearts, I've been married
29:09
Speaker 1: for a long time, I've got kids. Many of us
29:12
Speaker 1: can identify with this. At what point in time do
29:14
Speaker 1: you get in a relationship where you say, Okay, I'm
29:21
Speaker 1: going to kill the person that I've been married to
29:25
Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, not only married to, but
29:27
Speaker 1: created a life with and have attempted to build a
29:30
Speaker 1: life with. At what point do you get to And
29:32
Speaker 1: I think that that's currently what the police are trying
29:35
Speaker 1: to explore. What would be the overall motivating factor for
29:39
Speaker 1: somebody to have done this, To do this with a
29:42
Speaker 1: person that you've built a life with and completely destroy it.
29:46
Speaker 1: Brian Walsh has pleaded not guilty to charges of murder
29:50
Speaker 1: and disinterring a body. He is being held without fail.
29:59
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph got Morgan and this is body backs