Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Katherine Wood

Transcript

Guest: Katherine Wood · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the System Speak podcast. If you would like to support our efforts at sharing our story, finding stigma about dissociative identity disorder, and educating the community and the world about trauma and dissociation, Please go to our website at www.systemspeak.org, where there is a button for donations, and you can offer a one time donation to support the podcast or become an ongoing subscriber. You can also support us on Patreon for early access to updates and what's unfolding for us. Simply search for Emma Sunshine on Patreon. We appreciate the support, the positive feedback, and you sharing our podcast with
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: others.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Catherine Lee Wood is a queer, plural, gender fluid, white, neurodivergent counselor, intern, artist, and musician. Katie is in their third and final year of graduate school at Lewis and Clark College and will graduate in June 2023 with a degree in art therapy and a certificate in eating disorders counseling. They have an undergraduate degree in psychology from Western Washington University. Currently, they are completing their graduate internship at a queer and trans owned therapy practice that serves queer and trans youth, adults, and families. Katie lives with their partner and two fur friends in Portland, Oregon and enjoys playing piano, drawing and sculpting, stained glass work, rock hounding, practicing yoga, playing board games, watching animated series, and gardening.
• 2:05
  We talk about all kinds of things in our conversation today, but specifically Munchausen by proxy, which Katie has been studying. For those who are not clinicians, Katie shares this. Munchausen by proxy, also known as factitious disorder imposed on another, is the condition that involves medically abusing others. On the other hand, Munchausen syndrome, without the by proxy label, only involves falsifying illness and or injury in oneself. This is important because a lot of survivors tend to reenact medical self harm, but very few survivors will go on to harm others.
• 2:51
  Welcome, Katie.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah. My name is Katie Wood, and I use they, them pronouns. And, right now, I'm a student over at Lewis and Clark College in Portland, Oregon. And, I am interested in a lot of areas, but one of them is in survivors of Munchausen's abuse. And I think there's not a lot of research out there, about that topic, and, I've really been enjoying the last few years doing my own sort of armchair research and kind of compiling a lot of data and a lot of, material for, for different presentations that I've given including including the one that I just gave here at, Healing Together, which was a really awesome conference.
• 3:36
  So, yeah, happy to be here and talk to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: you today. Where have you found the beginning of research or even to start that when there's not enough about it?
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: You know, part of it was reading survivor accounts. I think that's been the most, like, enlightening work that I've read, but there are a lot of articles out there about mostly people who have, kind of been on the abuser side of the Munchausen's type of abuse, which I'm calling medical abuse because, the word Munchausen's, while we all know it and it kind of, like, orients us to what we're talking about, it really is talking about an abuser's experience rather than a survivor experience. So, I'll probably be using medical abuse throughout the rest. But in any case, there's way more research about, people with Munchausen than people who've had suffered abuse, by those people.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: I love the focus on lived experience. I think that's amazing and that you got the insight into where the focus needs to be and where healing happens or who needs healing, and and I I love the focus of that. In case we have listeners who don't know what it is, do you want to explain the diagnosis and why you are calling it medical abuse?
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. So munchausen is when, a person, usually a caregiver, but not always, falsifies illness, which can look like a lot of different things in another person. So, usually, the research shows us that that's, between a mother and a child. But it's when somebody, for example, gives a child a medication that makes them sick, and then they might take them to the doctor, and then confuse and the doctor's all confused to know what's going on. So, you know, they're doing tests and doing treatments and things.
• 5:22
  But this is kind of a pattern of behavior, and it's not just limited to, say, giving a child a medication. There's there's a lot of other ways that, that this what this abuse can look like. And the other part of it is that a lot of times, when this this, when the caregiver is doing this behavior, it's usually in order to for lack of a better word, it's like an attention seeking behavior in terms of getting attention from doctors and from, medical staff. So a lot of times, that's kind of what the motivation for this type of behavior is for an abuser.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: And what is the impact on survivors? Where do you even wanna start with that conversation?
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's an enormous impact on survivors. There's impacts that are you know, cover the whole biosocial biopsychosocial spectrum, and that's that is to say that, and there's also long term and short term, impact. So that could be anything from emotional impacts to physical impacts.
• 6:22
  And, emotional impacts could look like the survivor, you know, just having trust issues and and, really struggling with attachment or in particular having really strong trust issues with themselves, like having a hard time trusting, their own experience given that they've kind of had this this, other experience overlaid on them, this kind of role of being sick. And the there's also a myriad of physical impacts. So some people have lifelong impacts on their body after this type of abuse. So, some people, you know, maybe wheelchair bound or they may have, like, digestive issues like GERD and and things like that for the rest of their lives. So, yeah, that's there's a it's there's a there's way more we could talk about there, but that's kind of a a general overview.
• 7:10
  So I myself am also a survivor of this type of abuse, and this was something that was in my family. And and that's one reason that I'm really interested in in this area of study. And so a lot of what I have to speak to is from lived experience, and I feel like it is mostly not at all represented in in in the research. So what I'm about to say is is a lot from my own experience with with maybe a little bit of of what I've read and what I've from what I've studied and also what I have read from other survivors. So for people who have who are plural or who have DID or dissociative experiences, I and just people in general who've been a victim of this type of abuse, I really want them to know that there are some sort of intricacies that they may experience within their their healing journey.
• 8:01
  And and most often, I'll be speaking about, you know, what that might look like with a therapist. There's a lot of things that we could talk about, but there is, for example, a tendency for since if a child kind of got put into a sick role when they were young, they may have learned that that's, you know, that's the way that they get love and attention from a caregiver. And they may take that into adulthood because that's what they learned, and they don't know any any different. And that could show up in the in the therapeutic relationship. And the therapist may be may or may not be aware of this dynamic.
• 8:36
  Most often, I would say they're probably not aware since there isn't training around this topic. So, there may be parts of a person, versions of them who take a sick type role in therapy or believe that that's the only way that they can get love or that, sickness equates to love or, like, being cared for when you're sick, which, you know, in in everyday circumstances, it totally does. But they've been given this really awful and sick version of that. And so a lot of times, there's reenacting of dynamics around the sick role.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: So that's one way. I don't even know what to say. There's just so much here. And I also don't want to intrude too much. So No.
• 9:19
  Please please let me know your comfort level. But what what else do you wanna share?
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No. And I appreciate that. I will say too that I've done a lot of my own healing throughout the years. And, while I have had, unlike many of us, some really, not good, very bad therapy experiences, I can say that the last few years, I've had, some some better luck than I've had in the past.
• 9:43
  And so, the therapist I have now is really awesome, and then I'm able to work through these things, and they're able to see these dynamics. And I don't know. It's it's just a a whole different experience. So so I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of of areas where we can run into where this is really hard with in therapy and also some areas sometimes where where some therapists do get it. So, that's that's one thing I would share.
• 10:05
  So, yeah, anything you wanna ask, I I feel like I'm in a good place to answer, and I really want people to know, that they are not alone in this. That's another thing I would want people to know.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: I I'm gonna be honest. I have had my own therapy trauma in the past. So even trying to have the conversation, I'm feeling way more unsettled than I expected. Like, I'm okay, and we can keep talking, But I'm just acknowledging that I feel that in my body, and I can think of different listeners from the community that I know specifically who are also gonna be like, woah. Therapy trauma and the alarms going off.
• 10:42
  Yes. Yes. What has that been like for you?
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, at its worst, it's been devastating. You know, Emma, I was so excited to come on your podcast in part. I I just have been such a long time listener and including some of the phases where therapy went really badly for you or things were really hard. And, my own journey was kind of mirroring yours I was finding, that I was having a hard time with with my therapy at the same time. And so I just kinda wanna to put out there that, like, I I know that this is not an experience that just happened to me and that this is something that happens to a lot of people and also putting out that yeah.
• 11:20
  I mean, it's just really hard. And at the same time and I know there's people who are still going through that. Like, that's that's maybe their active experience. That that's what's happening for them right now. And I wish I could, you know, move move around to all of those people and help them find the right therapist or something.
• 11:37
  And I I know that's not within my power, but it's kind of like what I wish I could do knowing how hard that experience is when that's happening.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I did not know that you listened to the podcast. So in some ways, that made me laugh, and in other ways, it's actually a relief because you know the backstory. And so that helps a little bit. I'm so glad you wanted to come on and share, but also, there's okay. So now that I know this about you too, this is not at all where I thought we were going, but that's also what happens on the podcast.
• 12:09
  I'm sorry.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: No. I
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: wanted that stuff all the way to your bio.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Sure. Okay. Sounds good.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Part of that is because for listeners on the podcast or maybe at the time of recording, some of this hasn't come on yet, is about to come on, but it has started. And to read your bio, I had trouble getting through it, actually. I'm trying I'm having trouble right now. Just a minute. Yeah.
• 12:37
  Oh, my goodness. You made me cry. Your bio made me cry. What? I I know it seems silly, and I know it's just your story.
• 12:46
  Oh. But to say, this is my name, and this is who I am, and I am this, and I am this, and I am this, and I am this. And to have those pieces already untangled in your life, and to be able to just say them freely, it just made me cry. I had to record that, and then we kind of had a break between when I got your bio and we started recording this conversation. I just had to cry because it was a beautiful thing.
• 13:14
  You have done so much work already.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. You're making me tear up. And, this is not gonna help with grounding for you, but, like, I just wanna say thank you for how much you have helped me untangle and find my way. Like, really listening to your podcast has been so special and meaningful for me. So I I thank you thank you straight to you for that in in being part of my journey in that way.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I'm just sitting here crying. I've got tears. I'm sorry. I will try to refocus back on our topic.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: That's okay. Keep praying can be important and and good and cathartic.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: So okay. So how does someone know just getting back to basics for this nurse who maybe don't have a clinical background, how does someone know the difference between I was sick a lot or I have these actual medical issues and I didn't really have medical issues or maybe you did and that was taken advantage of. There's that as well. I know with some people with disabilities in the dis disability community.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: That I think that's a a a fabulous question. And I would say that somebody who has had medical abuse happen to them, a lot of times, there was a lot of deception involved. So most people I will also say that this most often happened to people who are very, very young. Like, I think it's something like seventy five percent of of, what we know, which is very little. So these studies are kind of coming from all over the world in, like, tiny little spots here and there.
• 14:48
  But from what we know, it's it's, like, seventy five percent of this is happening to people who are infants and toddlers, with, others happening to kids and teens and also sometimes elderly folks who are being taken advantage of others. But in any case, it is relatively rare. It's not something that is, you know, happening. We don't have a firm number, but it's it's something like, one to two and two hundred thousand. And that might be inflating a little bit, but, there's also kind of a lot that we don't know in terms of people who haven't come forward or where there's confusion, kind of like what your question is asking.
• 15:25
  So I what I what kind of what I would say about that is in the when we talk about a difference between just having a childhood that was full of illness, right, a lot of times somebody who, had one child's abuse happen to them, especially if it lasted after they were toddlers, there's usually some element of deception happening. So, always on the part of the the abuser. But, also, sometimes, what that looks like is abusers will sort of, get the victims into kind of like a Stockholm Syndrome place where they are either convincing them to that they are sick or convincing them to pretend they're sick even if they're not. So a lot of people who have had this type of abuse happen may remember kind of sort of role playing as sick or being confused about their own health and and whether they're sick or not. So I can't say that there's really a clear cut way for someone to to to look back and say either, you know, I was a victim or I was not.
• 16:30
  However, I would say that, again, this is a pretty rare thing, so it it's probably unlikely. But if you notice that there's deception or if there's if there's things that don't make sense about health, and and I know a lot of things can can just not make sense about health. That that does happen, but especially in relationship to caregiver. So if there's kind of, like, I wonder what this this thing was about, and you're not able to get, an answer or there's medical records that that back up this concern, that would be something like a something maybe like a pink flag. Another way people can can look at that information is people who have this type of abuse happen to them tend to get, like, carted around to a lot of different doctors' offices, and we see that a lot.
• 17:13
  So somebody who has an abuser who is wanting to to show their child child as a sick person, who's wanting to present their child as a sick person to the world, often takes their child to, like, a million different doctors, and there's not sharing of records that happens. So, normally, if we wanna go see a specialist, you know, your primary care doctor is calling a specialist. And if that specialist wants to go see another specialist, there's kind of like a, like a line of documentation. But for somebody who is taking their child to different appointments, they're they're not sharing that documentation, which it, of course, gets harder and harder nowadays, kind of thankfully because medical information is way more likely to be shared between providers. But, you know, that's only a recent thing.
• 17:53
  It's been more in the last, you know, ten years or so. But before that, it was really easy not to share records, records, or have a paper trail between doctor's offices. So that's kind of a long way of answering that, and and I think there's a lot more to it. But I guess to summarize, there's not a definitive way to know, but also knowing that most of the time, it's unlikely. If someone's just wondering like, oh, did this happen to me?
• 18:19
  I'm not sure. Likely not, but it it could have, and it's worth talking to a therapist about it.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So one of those things where your mind and your body are on the same page, you understand what is okay and what is safe. And when you have your voice and you have choices and you know your own story. I'm trying to think of neutral examples that would be Mhmm. Mhmm. Different than that.
• 18:44
  So, like, for example, I have kids with disabilities, but they have the same doctors all the time. And when they do go to specialist, what happens just I don't even have to do anything, but, like, the records automatically go to the pediatrician. Exactly.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. That's a great example.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we have there are IEPs at school, and they all are old enough now where where it's like I mean, this is the challenge. How do you wanna meet that challenge? Does it bother you? Does it not?
• 19:15
  And so emphasizing having their voice. But then with what you're talking about, it's similar to other patterns of abuse in other ways and that there's secrecy, there's deception, there's shame, there's all those abuse dynamics just related to medical care specifically.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Exactly right. And and I know too that the dynamic of kind of forcing somebody to be involved in their own abuse is not, it's not just something that's happening with medical abuse. So, yeah, you're right. Those dynamics are something that we can see across the board with different types of abuse.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So with what you said earlier about therapist, that's where that it's almost like a reenactment when it comes back up with your therapist. Is that kind of what you're talking about?
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: I am completely. Yeah. And that that can happen. And if you're not if especially, if it's it's something that a lot of people have a lot of shame about. So for a lot of survivors, and I will say myself included, I went from childhood childhood kind of still in the same role of of being a sick person and sometimes making up illnesses that I had or something like that.
• 20:27
  So I felt a lot of shame. I couldn't mention it for years. It was something that was just so I didn't understand why I was doing it. You know, it felt like a lot of other dissociative experiences. Like, it felt like somebody else was doing it, and I couldn't understand why.
• 20:42
  And it took me a really long time to reconcile, you know, with a lot of family work and a lot of therapy, why this was happening and to understand that the dynamics from when I was a kid and from what I was doing as an adult were one and the same. And that was what was able was that was what was the thing that helped me to to transition into not doing that anymore. So yeah. And I'll also say too that I feel really honored to be able to talk about this and to be able to say that out loud with with relatively little fear because from what I understand, some of the research about people who, you know, adopt those patterns from childhood, they have such a low chance of being able to talk about it because of the shame, because of the stigma. And so, yeah, I I, I feel amazed that for whatever reason, I've ended up in a place where I can talk about this, and I can encourage other people who are maybe stuck in this dynamic and and too scared to come forward that, like, hey.
• 21:39
  You know, we learned these dynamics in childhood, and there there can be a way out of this. So
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: There's so much overlap with that with other survivors in other ways. I'm so glad you brought this into the conversation even for healing together.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It was it was a lot of fun, honestly, too. But, yeah, me too. It feels like an important topic, and it feels like I, yeah, I just I really care about this community.
• 22:04
  I also lead a munch house and support group, and I I call it that because most people know munch houses, but they don't know medical abuse. So they wouldn't be able to find it. But I do lead a munch house and support group on Reddit, and I've been really touched by survivor stories there. And and so, yeah, giving out this kind of information and helping with this sort of advocacy really it means a lot to me.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: What has that been like for you connecting with other survivors and supporting them and helping them? And what has the impact of your experience been relationally anyway even besides that, like, just generally?
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, to answer your first question, I would say that connecting with other survivors has been extremely healing. I have loved to not only, put out information that I know and have gained from over the years, but also to learn new information and to hear about new experiences that people have had. Like, it's it's such a, a healing experience that is, wonderful, and I'm just so happy to be somebody who can who can fill that role. So so there's that.
• 23:15
  And then relationally, I mean, it was interesting too because beginning to talk about this with my friend when you say relation relationally, I think about kind of the people in my circle and my my chosen family. But when I started to come out with all of these two friends, I was really just taken aback by how supportive they were and how healing the whole experience was and how, really nonjudgmental that they were. Yeah. So I just I, I had a good experience in that way, and and that was, I think, because I I have safe people in my life at the moment, and I know that that's not accessible to everybody. But I will just kind of put out there that I had this awesome experience relationally in terms of sharing this with others.
• 23:59
  And it's really just growing in terms of the communities that I'm able to be involved in, including this wonderful healing together, conference by an infinite mind. They were amazing. So
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you had a positive experience. Yeah. What else specific to Munchausen's or medical abuse do you wanna share
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: today? Yeah. It's like it's where to start, really. I I think I wanna just kind of come back to the the issue of of trust and self trust in particular. And I think that there has been, such a, there's a way where people can be really damaged by being taught not to trust themselves or to listen to their bodies or to when they're told that their bodies are sick when they're not kind of thing.
• 24:44
  And so a lot of people will grow up, who've had this type of abuse. They might, for example, they might even struggle to tell if they're currently ill. So that that happened to me. I remember showing up to therapy one day, and I, this was years ago. And I and I was, you know, my nose was running, and and I was totally coughing.
• 25:03
  And I was I sat there with my therapist, and I was like, I can't tell if I'm actually sick or not or if if this is just something that my body is conjuring up or if I'm making this up, if I'm making too big of a deal out of it. And so it took a long time to really get to know my body and to be able to listen to the cues that my body had for me. And so, yeah, I I think that trust in oneself is paramount, and it's something that I I would hope therapists who are listening to will really help survivors of this type of abuse connect with that sense of trust because I think that that's one of the the things that are most primarily damaged by medical abuse. So that's that's one thing.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: That makes so much sense. And I think is another hard piece. I know we're talking in circles a little bit today, but it just correlates with everything. Like, it the pervasive impact just keeps showing up in different ways. And when I think about bodies and not trusting yourself, that, again, goes right back to those basic abuse dynamics no matter what form it comes
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: in. Yes. A %. And I think that this one, it it is it's it's the same thing kind of wrapped up in a different package. And but the the difference maybe with this one is that there's kind of a literal element to it.
• 26:21
  Like, there's there's literal like, sometimes even people weren't just made to be sick. They might have been injured so that they were able to be presented to a doctor with an injury. So a lot of times, there's, like, this very, like, literal connection with, like, not being able to trust if you're sick, that type of thing. So I'm having a hard time maybe putting words to this concept that I'm that I'm trying to to talk about. But, yeah, there's there's some just, like, interesting not interesting, but, like, different flavor here that happens when we're talking about medical abuse.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: It's a specific thing. Either vulnerabilities already there then taken advantage of or injury added that wasn't there at all.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah. And that brings me to another point too. Neglect can be a part of this experience for survivors when they were victims. So a lot of times, abusers in this this type of dynamic will neglect a person to a point where they need medical attention and then, you know, try to pass it off as as not being medically neglectful.
• 27:27
  So there's there's kind of a, like, a cycle of neglect and, this sort of, like, overfocus on health that can happen. And I know that that's that can be a really common dynamic too. So a lot of times, it can be confusing too for a survivor when you have somebody who's really overly concerned about your health when maybe it's actually not that bad. But then when something does go wrong, there's there's some neglect that happens. So that that can be a dynamic that people notice too.
• 27:52
  So and it can be confusing when you're trying to parse out, you know, what has happened to you. It's so much to untangle. Definitely. Yeah. So I do think, and I know, again, I I'm fine talking in circles.
• 28:05
  I like circles. But, when I think too just about more dynamics that can show up in a therapy setting, I think that that sometimes when somebody is playing not playing. I'm using words that some some of the books I've seen have have put out. But I would say when somebody is taking unknowingly the sick role in a therapeutic setting, a lot of times, this can cause a therapist to kind of take the the savior role. Right?
• 28:33
  And so they're they might unconsciously or consciously see the the client that they're working with as, like, a weak or damaged person, physically or otherwise. And and there's a way where those roles can kind of play off of one another where where somebody is in a sick role and the therapist doesn't know what's going on, so they're kind of stuck in this co transference dynamic where where they're on the other side kind of being a savior or, thinking that this person is is helpless. And so I think that that's something to be aware of too in terms of, like, helping a person to reach their own sense of trust and self trust and and kind of get a better sense of of themselves and their ability to trust their body, that type of thing. It's just knowing that as therapists, we fall to the risk of seeing somebody with with medical abuse as completely helpless or broken, that type of thing. So I think that's just it.
• 29:25
  I feel like that's an important piece as well for for therapists therapists who are listening. In part, it really matters to me that we train therapists about this type of abuse because because of the different flavor that I've kind of talked about that that while it has a lot of similarities with other things, there's just some things we don't we we don't know if we don't know. Right? We wouldn't be able to recognize it as a dynamic related to this type of abuse if we don't know that that's what it is. And so that's one thing I I really feel important about putting out there.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: So the abuse dynamic has some very clear similarities and patterns, but the impact is very unique and specific because the experience is so unique and specific.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. I one thing that I think is important to mention too is that there's a just like, again, you know, a lot of other types of abuse have this very, very same sort of outcome, but I do know that there's there's some scant research that seems to strongly suggest that folks who have this type of abuse and, again, this is primarily happening between mothers and children. But there's a big, big overlap between, you know, estrangement and people who have to set really strong boundaries in up to and including no contact with their parents or parents and this community.
• 30:43
  Like, there's a there's, like, a, like I said, a strong overlap. So, a lot of people, who have been through this, they end up kind of having, being in a situation where they're putting up strong boundaries and and maybe gravitating towards chosen family and friends, that type of thing. But a lot of people do have, struggles keeping in contact with their family. And I say struggles, and for some people, it struggles. And some people, it's like this really empowering choice.
• 31:11
  There's and sometimes it's both. But, yeah, I I think that's important to say too that that that does happen a lot. This one of the impacts of this this this abuse is that it does really hurt families and family relationships. And, again, just like any other type of abuse, there are gonna be people in families that may or may not believe what's happened, and there's people who, like, outright don't believe or or believe or or whatever it is. But the the point is a lot of times, there's there's impacts on the family system.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: It feels like well, when I reflect on what you've just shared, it seems like that would make so much sense just intuitively when the invasion is literally your body, which does happen with other kinds of abuse. But this is also the kind of invasion that includes that relational betrayal where reality is not actually real and emotionally and even your identity. And that that also would make me think and clarify for me because I don't wanna make assumptions, But it makes me think also that there would be, like, entire areas of development that could be missed that you would have to catch up. And so, like, how would you even know even who you were, which to me goes back to your bio that is so clear. This is who I am, which is just reflective even more of healing when you consider that that's what this kind of abuse does.
• 32:44
  Yeah.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: I am so glad you brought that up. So it's like there's, like, three things that I'm I'm like, woah. This thing and this thing and that thing. All these things that I could talk about. But let me say, first of all, that this is, strictly a hypothesis of mine since research about this does not exist.
• 32:58
  But I think it's a it's a pretty strong one, which is to say that I think that we can we can safely say that, since this type of abuse occurs mostly for infants and toddlers, right, this is the key developmental phase kind of, like, as you're saying. And so when there's this strong intrusion of body and soul and all these things are happening and it's happening chronically and to varying degrees of severity, I I can see how and this, again, the betrayal element that you that you, recognized as well, I can see how something like this would act would, lend itself and lead to dissociative experiences, because there's this way where folks are when they're so young, and they're going through these constant medical experiences. And if there's the betrayal element, then it could definitely cause some internal division and and these adapted ways of learning to survive such an incident. And so I think that's important too that that this developmental component, it is something that's happening when people are really young. And so I can see how that might lead to something like DID, if not chronic PTSD, that type of thing.
• 34:12
  Yeah. And then there's so much more to go go through there too, and I'm kind of, like, like, a little bit ahead of myself. But, yeah, I I also really love, so one of the things I talked about at my presentation is people who have medical abuse happen to them, they often have so many different narratives placed upon them, and that could be by the abuser who is who is, you know, saying, like, you are sick or whatever they might be saying. They might be, maybe have run into doctors who are like, are you faking this? Are you a faker?
• 34:45
  Or even people in their community. And, again, as I said, a lot of people who go through this type of abuse, they naturally end up, repeating these dynamics, and so they might bring it even into their adulthood. So So they might be called liars and beggars by other people. And as an art therapist, which I I could talk for a long time about that too, I really love, doing art therapy and and being an art therapy intern. But I I really appreciate narrative art therapy because one of the principle or one of the main, focuses of art therapy and and narrative art therapy is to really help people tell their own stories about themselves.
• 35:22
  And and so that's been a big deal for me too in my own journey is, like, learning to tell my own story and describe myself in ways that I want to be described as, which I think kind of touches on the the profile that that you were talking about. Like, I that's been a big part of my healing is learning to refer to myself in ways that are my story and my narrative about myself and and not others.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: There's just so much in here. Yeah. And so much to unpack to okay. We have to ask. Tell us about art therapy.
• 35:56
  Okay. So art therapy
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: is pretty amazing. There's it can be a really awesome way. And I know that you've you do your own art, and I've heard it. And I think I've even seen some of that looking at, online sometimes. But I it can be such a way to help make meaning around experiences for which there are no words.
• 36:17
  And I I'm betting that a lot of people who use art journaling or just love doing art, they they know what I'm talking about. There's this way of taking things that are really hard to talk about or just don't have words, even if it's a a good topic, like like, something that makes us feel positive. A lot of times, we don't even have words for that. And so doing some art can really help us to find perspective and find ways to describe or understand things that are hard to put into words. So I really love art therapy for that.
• 36:45
  I also part of the the program that I'm in, one of the the big the how do I say this? Like, the something that's really important is making sure that it's it's accessible to everyone and or most people. And so I as I am working with clients, I find that oftentimes a stick figure drawing can have just as much power and meaning and intensity to it as some something that somebody spent, you know, a half an hour on or or two hours or whatever. So, yeah, there's I I really love art therapy that it can be accessible. We can change materials.
• 37:17
  If if someone doesn't like the materials or if they're not accessible to them for some reason, there's just so much and so many ways that it can be adaptive. The other thing that I really love about art therapy is that there can be this sense of containment and gentleness. So while kind of having a talk conversation, like like a a conversation that is all talking with, like, a therapist, a lot of times, that person is a complete stranger, especially if we're talking about the first several sessions or weeks or months or years. Sometimes they still feel like strangers. But right.
• 37:48
  So sometimes, sitting and having that conversation can be really intimidating. Sometimes it can be triggering, especially but for any number of reasons, really. And doing art, though, has a way of it can be self directed where you're really, usually only drawing something that that, that you're capable of drawing in the moment or that, like, is is accessible to you emotionally. And there's other ways of containment, like, even just drawing a box around something that's hard or putting it in an envelope. Like, there's a lot of ways that we can if something does become activating or really hard to work with in terms of art, there's so many ways that we can care for it that that can just be really supportive to a person and, maybe less activating than than simply talking about something.
• 38:34
  So, yeah, there's so many things, that I love about art therapy.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I love that. We have done a lot of art. Yes. We've got some that really like art, and sometimes that is specific things. It also just shows up not just in an art journal, but, like, in regular journaling, there's always these random sketches or pictures showing up.
• 38:56
  Very relatable. We also have done difficult expressions of hard things for therapy that we have literally done what you said of, like, getting this out enough we can breathe and then putting it in an envelope. And we have these stacks of our envelopes everywhere that's just full of really grotesque or difficult things, but they're not in me. They're not in need. Yes.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Art therapy can really help with externalization, which is a big fancy word for just kind of taking what's in your head, just like you said, and bringing it out and and putting it somewhere else. So journaling does something very similar just just like with with in, like, writing, but art therapy has been shown to have maybe a little bit more of a release in that way. So yeah.
• 39:45
  And then there's all sorts of ways that we can find that containment. Like like you said, either putting it away somewhere safe and tucked away, or we're asking the elements to help us in some way. So if that might for some people, that means, like, burning a piece of paper or, you know, washing away tiny chunks of it or something. So, there's all sorts of ways that we can find containment through artwork. That and also, like, artistically, like like I said, drawing a box around something or scribbling something on top of something.
• 40:15
  These are always where we can find healthy containment.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: What has it been like for you so far? And I know you are doing your internship now, but what has it been like for you so far to be a clinician with lived experience who is out about that experience in appropriate ways?
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it's been an adventure. I'll say that. It's been a journey because, you know, at first, it was really, really, really scary. It did not come without risks.
• 40:43
  And, you know, I'm lucky to be in in a community and in a locale and a lot of different things where this is the dissociation and dissociative experiences are more talked about and in an area where different identities are are accepted. So when I identify as they, them, that's not really questioned here. So so identifying West Plural is kind of just like another step after that. And so I don't know. I've been really lucky in that way, but it has not come without complete terror sometimes and not knowing what's gonna happen if I put myself out there.
• 41:16
  But the reality has been that, people, clients, and and my supervisors and, coworkers, things like that, they've all been really accepting, and most people have had, like, a friendly curiosity at times. But, overall, I found that it's connected me to to people who have similar experiences and wouldn't have otherwise talked about it. And, yeah, it's it's really, it's been scary at times and but I'm finding, like, I'm I'm having more and more benefits of being able to say, like, yeah. I have associative experiences, and I I'm plural. And I have these different versions of me and these different parts and ways of being, and that's just who I am.
• 41:58
  And I don't know. There's it's a strange time to to be out about that since there is kind of like like what we're talking about with medical abuse. There's a lot of narrative out there about people with DID as fakers or, you know, doing that for attention, which I can't even imagine. But yeah. So I it is a scary time sometimes to be out, but at the same time, that's also meaning that there's more support and more places that we can go and just, like, at this conference where we could all come together and, I don't know, and and just have this sense of belonging.
• 42:32
  And and that wasn't a possibility. I don't know. For me, even just three years ago, and I know that it's it's, I don't know. It's it's this kind of newer thing. So I'm really thankful for places and spaces that I can go and and just be myself.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that so much because it is an example of doing the work to be yourself even when that's wrestling with the risk or wrestling with who am I and navigating parts or self states. And
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Right. Your your example of going from the impact of Munchausen to that bio. I'm so caught up in that bio because it was so powerful. And being able to just say, this is me and standing standing in that space that is yourself, whatever that means and all the layers of that and the risk and and the vulnerability and the complications. And not that it's even all settled, but to be able to express yourself is so so powerful.
• 43:39
  And I think the way you described that of the work of getting to that place is different than just this part presents this or fawning depending on your environment. This is no. This is who I am all the time even though also also, we have DID. And it's something I have been asking for over a year. Because one of the things the husband says all the time is, I am who I am all the time.
• 44:08
  Like, I'm just me. And he doesn't have DID, and he talks about that. But it's brought up a lot of questions and it's been a big year for us therapeutically in lots of ways and lots of changes in our family. But in that context of asking these questions, how do I even know what the pieces are to put together? And how do I even find the pieces of okay.
• 44:34
  I've made some progress. It's not just about being DID or plural or this or that and wrestling with when is it okay or is it not. I was talking about plurality this weekend with people because of the conference. And there are some ways I really don't wanna identify with plural because this has happened or this has happened or this has happened. But also, I am plural, like, lowercase plural by default.
• 45:00
  Right? And so how do I come to terms with that or or claim that? And the work that goes into that, that you can't just be that. And I think sometimes, especially people who are new to the podcast or new to therapy or new to healing together, think or get overwhelmed by, I don't know how to do what you're doing or be who you're being. It's like, no.
• 45:26
  No. No. You just have to be yourself. And along the way of healing, those pieces start to fall into place where they do belong. And, yes, it is untangling.
• 45:37
  And, you know what? Like, on the podcast, therapy trauma took us three years to figure out what happened. The last year has taken an entire year with six months of off from the podcast to be able to untangle, like, sexuality and over religious trauma as a thing and these kinds of things. It takes time and it takes work. And so when people say, why are we still talking moving on in the podcast?
• 46:03
  Well, I don't know because it takes time. And if I could take it for you and just be like, wrap things up in a bow, it would certainly make my life easier. But that's just not how it works. It's all this work that is the work of healing. When we talk about integration, it's not about this part and this part, like, getting sandwiched together into one piece of sandwich.
• 46:28
  It's this. I can be this and this and this and this, and I know this is who I am.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And then and then that's okay. And I think that I mean, I think it's so amazing that you have this sort of chronological journey, you know, by way of podcast, where you've been able to look back on your healing, and and you can kind of show it as this journey. And I also, wanna echo what you're saying too that, you know, sometimes you just have to stay with something until you're ready to move past it.
• 47:00
  Like, it's kind of the the image that comes to mind is, like, sometimes you have to chew on something until you're ready to swallow it and and forever however long that takes for it to be safe and for it to be, natural and good for you. That that makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, I, I also would say that, you know, back in 2020, if you asked me if I would be able to say these things out loud and and, to make sense of some of these things, I don't think I would have believed you or I would I don't think I would have, said yes that that would be possible. And so, it really is so hard when you're in the midst of things and when you're in the dark night of the soul part of the journey to believe or to even be able to conceive of what it looks like for light to enter and for things to to get better or to to start to make sense. Yeah.
• 47:48
  That's really, really, really tough.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: And that part of healing is creating finding, like you said, finding spaces with others or community where where
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: you can do that work. A %. Yeah. We're we're not meant to do this alone.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Okay. Follow-up question on medical abuse that has come to me. Yeah. One of the things that's a hot topic in the community is how DID is portrayed in movies and television or film. Yeah.
• 48:20
  At Healing Together, Holly and her son, Dylan, presented Petals of a Rose. So just following up on that, I want I I have the question for you. What do you think about the way that medical abuse has been portrayed? Obviously, they talk about it as Munchausen in film Totally. And television.
• 48:42
  But what do you think about that? What has that been like for survivors of that specific abuse?
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: Yes. I love this question. Love this question. So I that's that's something that I have noticed and have thought about as well. And, it was something I considered, kind of going into detail at the present at the conference, but I really wanted to try to keep the material as as kind of accessible and and so pea as many people, as many of a person's parts can be there as possible without feeling like they had to to leave or be, completely overwhelmed.
• 49:17
  But I will say just as a general way of answering the question, most of the media and shows and and things that are out there that depict this type of abuse are, of course, just like shows and TV and and movies about, DID. They're super sensationalized in a way that I would say is directly hurtful to to victims of this type of abuse. So, for example, a lot of times, in in shows that depict this type
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: of
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: abuse, it's just it's really overblown or it's, like, turned into, like, an action action adventure, and it's supposed to be this, like, like, thriller type of thing. And so I think that, it it paints this type of abuse into one type of corner so people are like, oh, that's what this is. When maybe that's actually the the very, very, very fringe of of the act of what this abuse actually looks like. So, yeah, I think it also tends to paint survivors as, like I said before, super broken or just super, like, Irma damage. Like, they're they're never gonna get better.
• 50:20
  Things are not gonna be okay. Like, this type of abuse breaks a person is kind of the narrative. And so I it hurts my heart to see that because I think that that is so far from the truth and, could be really activating and demoralizing to, a survivor watching that play out on TV. So there there's so many more things to say about that, but overall, yeah, I think it's so sensationalized, and it it also just really does not do good things for advocacy and for other people's understanding of survivor's experience.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Seeing ourselves reflected only only as victims Right. Or as helpless or not going to get better, feels so heavy and, like, another kind of reenactment of
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: You're you're telling me who I am or who I'm not or who I cannot be. And so to consider the idea that part of healing is figuring out who I am and holding space to do the work to become myself, but also part of healing is holding space for the idea that I am well, that I can be okay, that I am not just safe, but healthy and well. What does that look like for you?
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: For a long time, it looked like affirmations and reminding myself that I am well. Because I know sometimes for survivors, there can be, you know, that tendency to to worry about, oh, no. Am I am I getting sick again? And that's genuine, because of the confusion that's been caused. So so a lot of my experience has been a lot of affirmations of, like, actually, no.
• 52:07
  I'm not sick right now. I'm healthy. And if I do become ill, I'm gonna take good care of myself, and I have good I have good people around me who will help me with that. So, yeah, I think that it's a big thing, and it's kind of something I feel like I'm still sort of getting to know is this idea of, like, oh, yeah. Like, I'm okay, and I am well.
• 52:27
  That's a, yeah, it's a it's a lot to process, and there's always that fear in the background of, like, oh, but when's that gonna stop or or will that stop? And, you know, I'm I'm handling those parts of me who with those fears with with the utmost of gentle care and, oh, sweetheart, I hear you. Like, Like, yeah, that is scary, and I'm here for you. It's gonna be okay no matter what happens.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: That's interesting because it makes me curious about how to make that or create that I like create better than make in that way. How to create that into my own affirmation sort of open ended of I am well because or I am well enough because. I'm sort of looking at the evidence of that as opposed to only trying to talk myself into something that I don't yet feel or experience.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Because those are different things, aren't they?
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right. Right. Anything else that you wanted to share or talk about
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: today? What came to mind was just, kind of all along the lines of what we're talking about. I really love the idea of, people getting to know what it means to create their own narratives and labels and to be able say, nope. That that label isn't me or that label's me today, but, no, it's not. You know, like, next day, nope.
• 53:45
  Nope. That's something else. And for that to be okay and for us to start to shed some of the narratives and labels that have been placed upon us, which could be all sorts of things. It could be parts of our identity, you know, our, any anything intersectional in terms of our our race, our sex, our gender, anything anything like that. It can look like all sorts of things.
• 54:04
  But, in the end, I think what matters is that we're able to we learn and and grow over time in such a way where we start to, make our own narratives and use our own words of describing ourselves and our experiences. And I I wish that for for everybody who who struggles with that or or who have but have had labels put placed on them been placed on them.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: I love the idea of the fluidity of that, of trying out different labels, seeing what fits now, what doesn't fit now, and and that being an ongoing process, not just something I have to check off and settle into.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah. There's kind of more empowerment and freedom and choice implied there.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I love that so much. Anything else?
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm just really appreciative of this time, and, it's such a a really awesome and fun and amazing thing to be able to get to to be here and talk to you openly about plurality and DAD and, Munchausen's abuse, medical abuse. Like, it's, it's absolutely I'm just, like, so floored that I get to do this and and so excited. And, I have really appreciated the way that you're able to ask questions and and dig deeper. And, yeah. And and once again too, I I just love to hear your journey, and I know that I am not the only one that has been inspired by your work and by your vulnerability and willingness to put these things out here.
• 55:31
  So thanks again for that and and for this time today. It's it's been lovely talking with you and getting to know you a little bit.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: That's very kind and very generous, and it's been a weekend I needed to hear it. Thank you.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: Oh, good. I'm so glad. Yeah. It's true. It's genuine.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay. Thank you so much for talking to us.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: Yes. Thank you, and I hope you have a great weekend.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned, it's that connection brings healing.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: We
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: look forward to connecting with you.