Latest / The Podcast of Jewish Ideas / 77. Rabbinic Attitudes | Dr. Marc Hirshman (Universalism & Particularism #2)

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77. Rabbinic Attitudes | Dr. Marc Hirshman (Universalism & Particularism #2) · The Podcast of Jewish Ideas

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Greetings friends, and welcome back to the Podcast of Jewish Ideas,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a Terror in Motion production.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I'm jj kimbre Here.
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  Speaker 1: On the Podcast of Jewish Ideas, we are currently running
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  Speaker 1: a multi part series on the forny and intriguing issue
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  Speaker 1: of Judaism and universalism. In pursuit of enlightenment and insight
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  Speaker 1: on this topic, we will be journeying through the full
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  Speaker 1: sweep of Jewish intellectual history, from the Bible down to
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  Speaker 1: our own day, inviting our Erudi guests to reflect on
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the many questions that are brought to the four by
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  Speaker 1: the discussion of this fascinating topic. On today's episode, we
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  Speaker 1: will be exploring the world of razal Or, the rabbis
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  Speaker 1: of the Mission and the Talmud, and considering the various
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: strains of universalism and particularism evident within their writings. We
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  Speaker 1: will be discussing the historic or social intellectual contexts in
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: which different generations of rabbis formulated their worldview and consider
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  Speaker 1: the complex picture that emerges from the wide array of
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  Speaker 1: their opinions. To discuss this topic, we are delighted to
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  Speaker 1: be joined today by doctor Mark Hirshman, who is the
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  Speaker 1: Mandel Professor Emeritus of Jewish Education at the Hebrew University
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  Speaker 1: of Jerusalem. Professor Hirshman has written and talked widely on
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  Speaker 1: the subject of Robbinic thought and culture, and his books
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  Speaker 1: includes A Rivalry of Genius, Jewish and Christian Biblical Interpretation
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: in Late Antiquity, published by Sunny Press in nineteen ninety six.
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  Speaker 1: A fascinating work, and it is a pleasure to welcome
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  Speaker 1: Professor Hushman to the podcast of Jewish Ideas Today.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome professor, Hello, JJ, how are you doing well? Doing
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  Speaker 2: well anyway?
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, and let's dive rte it
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  Speaker 1: because there is there's a lot to cover. But before
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  Speaker 1: we get into the historical aspect, I wonder if you
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  Speaker 1: might define for us the term universalism, at least as
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  Speaker 1: you understand it and you use it. And certainly how's
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: universalism best understood for the purposes of this particular discussion.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I took in my book, I took off from
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: Jonathan Smith's definitions and article on it. And what I
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  Speaker 3: would say, it's a universalist approach in a religion is
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  Speaker 3: one that sees itself as a religion, not just for
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  Speaker 3: its religionists. People born into the religion, but also for
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  Speaker 3: the world at large, that the message they have as
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  Speaker 3: a message for all people, and all people can access it.
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  Speaker 3: That would be my beginning definition. It sounds a bit
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  Speaker 3: different from what we would think of our own Judaism today,
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  Speaker 3: but we'll get to that.
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  Speaker 2: Right, I'm sure we shall.
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  Speaker 1: Is there other, perhaps different forms of universalism that could
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  Speaker 1: be useful to understand there?
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  Speaker 3: I'm sure there are. The most recent attempt is Malka
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  Speaker 3: Simkovich's book on Universalism. She delineates four different kinds of
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  Speaker 3: Jewish universalism. I would not like to move beyond the
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  Speaker 3: definition I've given, but you know, you certainly have to
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  Speaker 3: take into account. I'm playing off of her, for you
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  Speaker 3: have to take into account. Is it a universalism that
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  Speaker 3: is attempting to take over the world, meaning to subjugate
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  Speaker 3: other peoples. Is it a universalism that's practical for its
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  Speaker 3: own day, or is it pointed towards a Messianic era?
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  Speaker 3: In the Bible? Scholars have pointed out two different kinds
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  Speaker 3: of approaches to universalism, but that you'll cover it another time.
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  Speaker 3: I think the universalism we're going to be addressing is
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  Speaker 3: a minor trend in rabbinic Judaism which last out eventually.
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  Speaker 1: Right, and that is an excellent excellent segue into what
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  Speaker 1: we want to discuss today and make me the Ribbon periods.
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  Speaker 1: So we're gonna start, obviously with with the Tanatic period,
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  Speaker 1: which shall we say the second third century of the
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  Speaker 1: Common Era, and hop before diving into the writing itself,
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  Speaker 1: can you give us a little bit of a historical
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  Speaker 1: background or what is going on socially, religiously, et cetera
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  Speaker 1: within the Jewish communities of that period of that of
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  Speaker 1: that location, and specifically what is going on there that
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: might have a bearing on Rabbinic universalism in general.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're you're putting pointing me in a direction I
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: usually would not want to go into. And I think
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  Speaker 3: historical circumstances can breathe opposite approaches ideologically, and I think
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  Speaker 3: there are lots of examples that to it until our
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  Speaker 3: own day. So I will give a background, but how
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  Speaker 3: much it shaped or didn't shape this particular stream of
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  Speaker 3: thought is a question. So we know the first I
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  Speaker 3: would define the Tataitic period as from one of the
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  Speaker 3: Common Era to two fifty but two and a half
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  Speaker 3: centuries which were fairly cataclysmic meeting the destruction of the
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  Speaker 3: Temple in seventy certainly made a huge difference in the
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  Speaker 3: religious approach because certainly, the temple, for most the Jews,
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  Speaker 3: not all, certainly Kumuran was not part of that. For
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  Speaker 3: most Jews was the focal point of the religion, along
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  Speaker 3: with other things pray or study, but the temple had
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  Speaker 3: pride of place. When it was destroyed, Certainly, the Jews
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  Speaker 3: hoped for immediate rebuilding, immediate at least seventy years later.
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  Speaker 3: Like the first time, they would hope that there would
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  Speaker 3: be a rebuilding, which might be one of the causes
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  Speaker 3: for the Barkoka revolt in one thirty two to one
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  Speaker 3: thirty five, almost seventy years later, where a catastrophic in
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  Speaker 3: terms of loss of life. The historian Dio talks about
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: half a million Jews being killed. So if the rabbis
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  Speaker 3: could say about the destruction of the Temple in seventy
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  Speaker 3: that thank God who took out God's wrath on stone,
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  Speaker 3: sticks and stones, it was the opposite in the barkokkoa volt.
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  Speaker 3: So if you're talking about rabbis, the two major rabbis
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  Speaker 3: will be discussing now lived around the turn of the
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  Speaker 3: second century, Rabiyakiva and Rabishmayel Rabiakiva is said to have
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  Speaker 3: martyred himself in the in the Barkoka volt So you
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  Speaker 3: don't exactly know when they said. What they said was
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: a pre post, but these were difficult times. The though
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  Speaker 3: this is the time of the Pax Romana, when the
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  Speaker 3: whole world is enjoying peace under the Roman Empire. The
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: only ones who are not enjoying are the Jews, and
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  Speaker 3: they're just not getting on. The only time the Pax
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  Speaker 3: Romana will extend to the Jews is in due to
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  Speaker 3: the Patriarch's realm from about one eighty five and on
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  Speaker 3: where piece is finally made with the Roman Empire. So
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  Speaker 3: that's the historical background. Is there anything else you want
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  Speaker 3: to know? I haven't talked about Christianity yet.
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  Speaker 2: Let's get to Christianity later.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's that is very significant, but I think
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  Speaker 1: perhaps at a slight later point. So let's dive into
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the two individuals you mentioned, because you draw a shop distinction.
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  Speaker 2: Between them and the two schools or two.
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  Speaker 1: Series of texting ideas that that seem to be surrounding them.
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  Speaker 1: So let's let's start with the universalistic school among the tana.
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  Speaker 1: You claim that this surrounds one particular time, So can
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  Speaker 1: you perhaps elaborate on this, Why what kind of teachings
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  Speaker 1: are we talking about, and perhaps why this particular figure
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  Speaker 1: associated with this particular school of ideas.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, so I mentioned the two figures Rabbi Akiva and
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  Speaker 3: Rabbi ishima Ale. Now, I went to a Kiva day
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  Speaker 3: school when I was a kid in Chicago, But I
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  Speaker 3: don't know anybody who's going to yshima Ale day school, right,
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  Speaker 3: So it's it's clike clear in terms of faint popularity
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  Speaker 3: and so on. Over the coming centuries, Rabbi Akiva became
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  Speaker 3: the chief figure, and rightly so, but he is not
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  Speaker 3: to my reading the universal the stream. So I will
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  Speaker 3: talk about Rabbi yeshma Ale, a priest after the temple.
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  Speaker 3: Times might have seen his the uncle officiating in the
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: temple and when he was a child, But he's of
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  Speaker 3: a priestly strain, and that's important to me. That's one.
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  Speaker 3: The other thing is these two debated how to perceive
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: the Torah's language. Rabbi Shmael was of the opinion that
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  Speaker 3: the Torah was given in the receiver's language. Dibradam it
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  Speaker 3: spoke in human language, and that has a lot of
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  Speaker 3: implications for how closely to read it. Rebiakiva thought the opposite,
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  Speaker 3: It was in a high language and God's language. So
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  Speaker 3: those are two majors. Switch between them. Now let me
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: talk about Rabbi Ishmael and universalism. Now I need two
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  Speaker 3: more introductory notes. Onehmael is a name that was common
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  Speaker 3: among Second Temple priests, so that's already interesting. And you know,
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  Speaker 3: to hear God ishma Al God hears is an interesting name,
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  Speaker 3: and that's his priestly pedigree. The other thing is when
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  Speaker 3: I talked about when I speak about the schools of
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  Speaker 3: ishma Al and the schools of a Kiba, so we're
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  Speaker 3: not necessarily talking about each individual. Now, how do I
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: know which is whose school? It's not clear cut. But
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  Speaker 3: about one hundred and fifty years of wonderful scholarship on
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  Speaker 3: the Tanaitic Midrash, starting in the nineteenth century with Rabbie
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  Speaker 3: dovedst Hoffmann through our own man Nakham Khanash that living
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  Speaker 3: long life in our own time, enormous wonderful, productive research
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  Speaker 3: has been done. Excuse one are the findings of that
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  Speaker 3: is you for all of the books between Exodus and Deuteronomy.
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  Speaker 3: We have at least two midrashic collections for each one
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  Speaker 3: of them, and it's been proven by language participants and
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  Speaker 3: other that one reflects the school of Chmael and the
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  Speaker 3: other reflects the school of Akiba. This is well established,
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  Speaker 3: well accepted. What is not in total agreement And again
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  Speaker 3: Khana is fairly firm on this that the agotic sections
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  Speaker 3: of the two different schools often overlap so algachically in
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  Speaker 3: the legal to there is clear distinctions in the agotic
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  Speaker 3: slightly less. So that's a praviso. And with that saying
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  Speaker 3: that I'll get to Rabi Schmellin's universalism, we okay.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: So I think the best way to uh to to
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  Speaker 3: cut into this is a machilta section. Mahilta is the
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  Speaker 3: is the generic name of eshma Al school's comments on
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  Speaker 3: the in the Talian period. But I'm talking about the
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  Speaker 3: makilta on Exodus, and there he has a statement, there's
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  Speaker 3: a statement, not a tribute writer Abi schmel but in
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  Speaker 3: his school that says, why the Torah was given in
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  Speaker 3: the desert, why not give it a Mount Zion or
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  Speaker 3: New York or somewhere else. Ok. And the point is
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  Speaker 3: it was given in a place parhesia the macombe heth
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  Speaker 3: care well if you're here, is a dude of the Greek.
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  Speaker 3: Demos Parhesia are both Greek words. So the giving of
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  Speaker 3: the Torah is described by this school to be in
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  Speaker 3: a public place. Demos Parhessia also means public. But it
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  Speaker 3: has a nuance in Greek of being free speech and
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  Speaker 3: in a place with no ownership. Hefgar it was in
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  Speaker 3: the desert where no one could claim ownership, not the Jews,
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  Speaker 3: not the Greeks, no one else, so that all people
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  Speaker 3: know it's open for everyone. Now that's a very impressive,
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  Speaker 3: striking and unusual statement. And to pouch it in two
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  Speaker 3: of the Greek words that speak so strongly in the
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  Speaker 3: Greek culture for open speech, that's also interesting. So it's
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  Speaker 3: a way of opening up Torah to all peoples. That's
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  Speaker 3: the beginning. Next. So that's one source. Now the source
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  Speaker 3: that I find most interesting thing and this I had
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: a new idea because of JJ's invitation to talk, and
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  Speaker 3: I'll bring that up in a bit. But this is
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  Speaker 3: in the siphray on the numbers, section one nineteen, and
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: there we have a long section and we quote Raby
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Shmael his school saying the following. It goes like this.
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  Speaker 3: Rabi Schmael says that the nation of Israel were compared
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  Speaker 3: to priests. Nation of Israel were also prepared compared to angels. Finally,
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: one who studies Torah receives the elevation to the level
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  Speaker 3: of angels, whereas one who doesn't do Torah or study
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  Speaker 3: Torah is just like an animal. Now that's very strong language.
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  Speaker 3: I'm bringing an English and not exact quite enough, but
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  Speaker 3: the idea being this that there is no inherent image
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  Speaker 3: to a person without acquiring it. You acquire your heavenly
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  Speaker 3: your angelic status by attaching yourself to Torah. Now, and
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: someone who doesn't do that is like a living creature
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  Speaker 3: that has those special human qualities. Now, I'm giving it
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  Speaker 3: a little more than it really says, but that's pretty
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  Speaker 3: much what he says. I'd like to contrast that to
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Rabiakiva's explicit statement in Perkaeale Vote, where Akiva says that
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: an atom or a human was beloved because the human
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: was created in God's image. Every human has inherent intrinsic
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  Speaker 3: God's image. The people of Israel were special because beloved,
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  Speaker 3: because they were called children of God. The people of
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Israel were special because they were given an inheritance. What
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: was the inheritance? They were given a vessel, a tool.
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  Speaker 3: What was the tool? The tool with which God created
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  Speaker 3: the world of Torah? So all people have inherent godly status.
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  Speaker 3: Jews have an extra peace to it, meaning they were
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: God's children. Third, as children, they inherited their parents main
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: livelihood if you would, God's tool, which was the Torah,
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  Speaker 3: and the Torah could create things through the Torah. Gudred
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  Speaker 3: This is Akiva. So if I think there's a strong
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  Speaker 3: country between how the Torah is perceived by by Akiva
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  Speaker 3: in the those three statements and the three counter statements
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  Speaker 3: in Rabel saying that a person achieves one status by
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: attaching oneself to the Torah? Is this okay? Is it clear?
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  Speaker 2: Yes?
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  Speaker 3: Where should we go from here? Uh? More about Rabael? Yes?
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: A little bit?
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  Speaker 1: Why not sort of explain perhaps this is actually not
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: about point I wish to explain. Maybe I don't know
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: the nature or limits of his universalism. When we say
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Rubiashman was a universalistic thinker, or his school those who
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: quoted in his name had universities tendencies. Maybe we're exactly.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Maybe other limits or the nature of that kind of universalism.
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  Speaker 3: Your question is better than my answer.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, let's hear the ensemble decide process.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, very good. It would seem that Rabil's attitude towards conversion,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: for example, was more reluctant. In other words, it would
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  Speaker 3: seem that the idea was it was said in another source,
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  Speaker 3: but not by a Rabbiermia in Titianic times, that a
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: non Jew who does Torah is like a high priest,
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  Speaker 3: meaning that that this status of being non Jew it
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: was the Torah. There was the definition, and not I
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: worry about saying this, not necessarily circumcision or the other
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: meets vote and everything. Torah toda was the criterion. Other
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  Speaker 3: than that, I don't know whether there were limits. It
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: would seem that Rabbi Schmel, the schools of Rabbi Schmell's
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  Speaker 3: position was anyone who wants should come and take take
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  Speaker 3: Torah Munah, the Munah who by the whole by anyone
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  Speaker 3: who wants to could come and take this, this crown
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  Speaker 3: of Torah, the crown of priests who went to the priests,
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  Speaker 3: and the crown of the kingdom went to David, but the
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  Speaker 3: crown of Torah is open, so that it's an impressive stance.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not sure what the limits were. I don't know
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  Speaker 3: anywhere that really talks about it.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, Perhaps this would be a good time,
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  Speaker 1: then to turn our attention to the more particular school
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: of Rabiakia. And again I sort of asked the same
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: battery of questions, because you know, what, what sorts of
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: things were they teaching? What what what is the nature
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: of that particularism would they come from? If you could
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: just give us a portrait of this, the particularism of
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: this of rape Kiva and those who quote it in
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: his name.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, I begin with that quote from a vote
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  Speaker 3: where Akiba sees Israel's special status, and it's quote directly,
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  Speaker 3: all humans have godly are in God's image, but Israel
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  Speaker 3: is God's children. Now that's you know that appears in Deuteronomy.
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  Speaker 3: Keep it didn't make that up, but okay, family, you
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  Speaker 3: are children of God. Is in Deuteronomy. So he was
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: just echoing Douuronim and it's a mainstay of his approach
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  Speaker 3: and the final thing, the power of Torah to create right,
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  Speaker 3: the creative tool that Toro was given as an inheritance.
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  Speaker 3: Now I'm the verse toadshakivatav Moses totas Tora, and it's
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: the inheritance of of Israel the sif Ray, and I
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: attributed this to Rabbiakiva school. The Siphray says in Douteronomi
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  Speaker 3: there says, don't read inheritance Morashah, read betrothed oh rasah Israel.
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  Speaker 3: The Torah is Israel's betrothed, which means it's Israel's wife,
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  Speaker 3: and no one can have anything to do with it
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  Speaker 3: except the Torah's husband, that's Israel. So there is the
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: beginning of keeping people away from Torah unless you're Jewish.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: That's the beginning of it. Now, Rabiakiva has a very
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: interesting statement in the Mahilta on the Song at the
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Sea Exodus fifteen, where the beginning the Mahilta generally on
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Mahilta of Rabishima El is the school of Rabishma. Again
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: with that provisor, the caveat that agada is not as
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: easily definable to one score or another. Though I put
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: in parentheses I'm taking a time out. You don't have
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: to cut this though right the timeout is Abraham Joshua
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Heschel's wonderful book translated in English called the Heavan Mee
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Tora by Gordon Tucker. Heshel in the sixties of the
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: last century wrote a work trying to show phyllis, at
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: least theologically Akiba Yeshmeel being different stances. And it's very intuitive,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: not done according to Tumunigskow the standards, but very provocative
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: and very good, so that when I come back to
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: our section in the Machilta, it opens up in a
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: fascinating way where in the Saun of the Sea says,
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  Speaker 3: this is my God, and I work stole, et cetera,
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  Speaker 3: et cetera. This is my God, the God of my father.
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  Speaker 3: I'm this the Machilta, which seems to be Rabbi Shmael says, yes,
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  Speaker 3: my my God, but a God for all peoples, not
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: just for me, for me a bit more. That's how
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: the first comments on the Song of Triumph almost it
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: with you know, with stress, with power. Put in the
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: motif of God as a universal god. God takes care
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: of everyone. We have an edge, Jules, but it's everyone's God.
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  Speaker 3: Now that sounds right, you know, anybody who reads Genesis
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: there's a world God there and as Maru point about Maru,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: as Eric Auerbach pointed out, the Torah itself claims to
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: be a truth document from Genesis to the end of days.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: So anybody who reads God created the world the end
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: of days will somehow bring up maybe that God will
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: end up being the God of the world again. But
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: what's interesting is in this midrash on the Song at
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: the Sea, this school wants to push the idea that
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: even though this was a victory for Israel, God takes
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: care of all peoples, no more for Israel. Now in
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: that same section, this is my God, and I will
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: extore God. Rabyakiva's statement is I will talk of God's
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: glories to all the people's. That's wonderful. But then it
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: brings another section, which is a kind of homily on
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: the song of Songs. Right there in the same place,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: which most scholars attribute to Rabyakiva is a continuation of
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: his opening statement, and there it has all the people's
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: praising Israel for the dedication, all the rest, and eventually
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: it comes down to the peoples of the world saying
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: to the Jews, your God is so beautiful, let me
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: join a Kiva's answer is so do you be vernivo?
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: This is my guide and that yours. So the contrast
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: between those studies is you so a keeps the Akeepa's
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: school's idea toro was specifically for Jews and unless you're
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Jewish you can't deal with this to That's that's how
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: the Akeba school work and it would seem that at
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Keebo one.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Right, And so so let me ask you before before
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: going on, because this is curious.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Could you.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Link this difference in in universal of a particular outlook
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: between a bushmanakiva to the very famous extegetical argument that
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier of whether Torah whether toa is written
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: you know, in such a manner that could be readily
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: understood by human beings, or in such a manner that
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: is by nature foreign or difficult, or you know, written
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: the languages that's not native to humans, written a divine language.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I'm it's difficult for me to immediately see a connection
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: between the two. Do you think are these two separate
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: arguments between these two schools or are they somewhat connected?
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I haven't thought about it enough, So let me
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: just give you off the cuff, please until my my
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: colleagues will come around either buy it or sell it.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: And it would seem that a key Ba's take is
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: a more mystical one, meaning if if if the Torah
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: is spoken in God's language, well then it's uh, it's
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: it's pregnant with meaning. Now who holds the key to
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: understanding God's language? That's another good question. Whereas Ishmael I
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: would say, is a bit more down to earth. It
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: was if the Torah was given in a language it
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: was to be understandable to people, to humankind, well then
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: it's it would seem to be going out of its
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: way to be understandable comprehensible. This probably there is another
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: side issue which in the Mission and the Tosefta appears
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: also related to rabishma Al. You know, there's a famous
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: section of when the Jews come into Joshua's time, when
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: they come into the land, they were to ascribe the
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Torah on stones, and the mission of their relates that
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Rabi Schuel says it was seventy it was done in
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: seventy languages. Now I owe saw that as at the
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: entry into Israel after the Jordan, you put up a
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: simples with who are we Zeby Schmael sees this as
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: telling people, this is where what you were supposed to
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: understand about us, but the idea that you wanted to
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: make it clear in seventy language and it was translatable
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: as opposed to other religions. Is it? Is it important?
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Is an important statement? So that yeah, I think it
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: was a I think there is some relation between the
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: two positions. I think.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: I see okay, fine, fair enough that that makes a
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: lot of sense.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Let me let me ask one or two other questions
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: about this, this uh, this split among the time I aimed.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: So one of them is the practical application. One of
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: the many applications of this debates. It seems to be
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: the relationship to external wisdom, and this you see in
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: various Arabs aspects of Orbitan literature, debates on things like O,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: my fund it and you know, studying Greek wisdom, studying
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: disciplines of various kinds, and that would have been known
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: in the grecord room weld Is this discernibly discussed and
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: is this a consequence of this particular shift? In other words,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: is the universalism and particularism debate among rabbinic scholars of
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: that time? Is that scene within the debate over studying
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: let's say, external branches of wisdom.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've tried to claim, as you know that Ishmael's
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: view is that there's no need at best for other wisdom.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: This is God's wisdom available to all no reason. So
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: when his nephew asked him whether he should study Greek wisdom,
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: he says, well, it's not either day nor night. And
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: he was not a big fan of that to say
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: that Abbiakivo was. You know, I don't have any evidence
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: to that that I can recall now, but yeah, that's
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: pretty much where I would take that. Rabi Schmael thinks
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: that this tor is for all. It's what defines a
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: person's personhood, meaning your ability to become a spiritual being.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: So why would you bother with anything else? Which brings
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: me to the point I was mentioning before, which I
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: sort of want to want to work on. It would
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: seem that what happened here is the holy site for Jerusalem,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: of Jerusalem before the destruction. You'll hear this or you
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: heard this already in the Bible section is to become
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: a place of prayer for all peoples. Isaiah says, Now,
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: it's quite clear that for another soum says something similar
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I think sixty five. And it is quite clear that
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: for a religious person, as prussor Muffs taught us a
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: a Shalom, the idea was shifty Bavetashem, call you me,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: let me sit in God's place all my life shift
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: and to bask in God's glory now when that's not
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: available anymore. And again both in One King's Eighth and
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: in Isaiah, it's quite clear that this was to be
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: a magnet for all people. This and we know you
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: know from pagan authors that the temple site that Herod
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: had built was one of the wonders of the ancient world.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: So even in terms of beauty, it was a magnet.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: When that was gone. Certainly for the Jewish people, what
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: became the focal point of the religion. And it could
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: be many, many different things that I've written elsewhere that
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: there were different streams of thought in Rabbinic thought. Should
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: once spend one's time doing mostly charitable acts, should once
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: spend most one's time studying Torah. So it would seem
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: then that the Schmael positions seems Torah in some ways
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: the same way they viewed the priest viewed the Temple. Well,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: this I haven't written and might be wrong, but I'm
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: throwing it out there as a possibility. This priest is
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: priestly school saw God's Torah available to all people, the
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: definer of personhood, as also the main thing a person
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: should do in one's life. Now that certainly has become
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: a Jewish you know, through the ages, the sn centrality
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: of to and I would say Rabiyakiva would also say that,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Rabiyakiva would say it only for Jews, and Rabi Schwel
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: might say it or his school for all people, and
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: it took the place of temple.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Interesting, would you say that there is that was a
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: continuation perhaps of a stream within Second Temple literature that
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: we see elsewhere, a kind of universalism that may be
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: evident there as well, or it's taught, or maybe you
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: could say no, it's not, it doesn't really exist on
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: the same continuum, because you're saying priestly background and that
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: that that's interesting.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: Well, again, I see the priestly side as being the
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: priestly view of the temple more than the priestly view
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: of Torah. In Second Marcus simple Simkovic's book on This
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: is the last word, and I I can't really summarize it,
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: but I don't think she goes in this direction in
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: terms of Torah during second certainly the switch to toa
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: as a folk of what happens in second Tepal times.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: Many people have written about Psalm one nineteen being a
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: pm to Torah, so late second table of times, there's
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: a shift to Tora, certainly for people who didn't see
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: the temple in second Temple times in such a great place,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: which were enough of But I think in terms of
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Abi Shmel, I think within the rabbinic context, I think
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: this is fairly new. But I you know, ask others
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: who are better at second Temple times than.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Me, fair enough a good answer. I'll take that.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: So let us return to something you mentioned a little
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: bit earlier that I wanted to hold off on until
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: we had a bit of a clearer picture, which is
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the Christian influence or Christian background to this, because, of course,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: in the second third century of the Common Era, this
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: was also this discussion surrounding universalism, what it means, what
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: it is was of course very a very pressing topic
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: for Christian thinkers as well, and the Christianity growing and
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: growing and becoming a major religion in the in the
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: areas in which which Jews were living, And so I
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: guess I want to ask a little bit about that,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: about the connection between rabbinic axes of universalism, in particularism
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: on this growing Christian background, and what the implications of
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: that was.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: So this Jewish movement called Christianity in its early stages,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: certainly from Paul in the sixties and Ann was claiming
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: to be the new interpreter of the Torah and the
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: right reading of the Torah. Now one of the sections,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: like in the New Testament, like in the Synoptics, the
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: Synaptic Gospels are generally thought to be post destruction of
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: the Temple, and one other talks about an intense Jewish
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: move to confer to missionize. Whether this is the case
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: or not is debated amongst scholars to this day. What
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: I do want to say is by the second century,
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: Justin Martyr, a famous apologist for the Christian movement who
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: was born here in Israel, makes the claim that the
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: truth of Christianity can be seen because through Christianity the
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: message has gone to the ends of the world, like
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Malachi had prophesied, So our legitimacy and you have to
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: remember when he's writing one point fifty and he called
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Justin Martyr because the Romans didn't like what he was saying.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: It was not illicit regigion Christianity. They tried to show
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: themselves as errors and continuers of Judaism, maybe honestly, and
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: also because it was a defense against the Roman Empire,
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: because the Roman empert did see Judaism as legitimate, whereas
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: Christianity was upstart new religion and new religions were nothing
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: the Romans liked. They saw that its subversive. So Justin
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Martyr in one point fifty rites and his dialogue with
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Tree from the Jews that our accomplishment us reading the
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: word around around the world as opposed to you, who
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: have very little influence. That shows we're the true interpretation.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: So early on the claim of universalism as an arbitray
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: of truth is in the Christian world. Now, what's the
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Jewish answer to that? Could be lots of things, but
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: maybe one of the answers was closing in, closing the
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: ranks and saying we're not in that game, and that's
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: not our We are the chosen people. We stay within
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: our ranks. Want to join us, join us, don't want
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: to join us, don't join us, but we're no longer universalists.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: Interesting is in the third century in the Roman Empire,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: both the pagan I don't like the word pagan. Really
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: pagan was was devised by the Christians. Either you were
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: God's soldiers Christians, or you were paganus, a regular person
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: not in God's army. And uh these great philosophers like
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Platinus and Porphyry, it seems clear that the third century
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: Roman religion was trying to and Roman philosophies universalistic was
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: moving towards universalism. So both Christianity and Roman religion were
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: pointed toward universalism, and it looks like Judaism began withdrawing
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: from it. Now is that because Akiba won and Akiba
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: and we know Akiba the mission as Akiba and the
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: Kiba students. Basically Akiba became the key figure into Amaya
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: times the second half of the limit of Judaism. So
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: maybe it's because of Akiba's influence, but it could also
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: be a defense against Roman and Christian claims of universalism
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: them winning and the Jews being a very small quiet group.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: And I suppose increasingly smaller and increasingly quieter as the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: as the Christians took over the Roman Empire. Fair enough,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: so then then this is a good opportunity to discuss
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: the sort of the later generations, namely the Amarek period.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: And one of the central claims that you've made, which
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: I found fascinating, is that essentially this type, this form
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: of Robinic universalism is more or less absent from the
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Amarek period, from the next generation for coming generations of
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Robinic activity. And so I let me ask, I mean,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: could you perhaps elaborate on this and then explain it.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, in your opinion, why is it that this
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: this really did not survive as a strain of Robinic.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: Ideas well, I think that the Akiba position was developed
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: even further to the extent where Rabbi and the great
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: third century Amorah, the chief amorab the land of Israel,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: died in two seventy he says that a non Jew
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: that studies Torah deserves to be put to death. Now
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: that's that sounds, Mike, an extrapolation from what we talked
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: about Akiba before, saying that the Torah or the keep
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: of school, the Torah being God's betrothed being Israel's betrothed.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: So if you incur, you know, incur on that on
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: that betrothed, you're in trouble. They're even stronger notions of
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: God is to talk about the Some of them are earlier,
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: some later, but that the that the nations couldn't even
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: handle the seven commandments that the Jews thought were for
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: all people, the seven commandments of Noah, and they couldn't
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: even handle those and do them properly. Certainly they can't
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: do that total properly. There's another gotic text from the
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Morea period that is two fifty to five hundred that
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: says that they couldn't even the nations couldn't even handle
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: God's word, as if the Sanai event was not a
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: local event for Jews in the desert, but the repercussions
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: were all over the world, and all the people come
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: to bottom the profit according to this argotic thing and
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: saying what's going on in the world. It's a world event,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: but they can't handle it, so that there's a strong
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: move against anybody non Jewish having anything to do with
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: this tota. The one exception to this which I didn't
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: write about it in my latest book, which you didn't mention,
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: but we'll talk about it an other time. Is an
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: extraordinary a Gottic collection called Tana de Veai. The Yahu
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Tana Develo is the most galitarian statements of anything anywhere.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: But most people think it's in its final shape it's
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: past rabbinic times.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Well well, yes, well, I mean, now that you've mentioned it,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I can't help but ask about this.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's fascinating.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: So the time Debailia, which as you say, is generally
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: typically taken to be a rabbitic text, but I suppose
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: has the fingerprints of later, later figures on it. In
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: what can can you elaborate? What do you in what
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: way extraordinarily egalitarian?
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: What does it do?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Let's say that Americ period doesn't and if that's correct,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: why why is that an exception? Is it because it
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: is later? Did the universal hasn't creep back in in
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: the period? I mean, do you have a theory behind
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: this or you're simply stating a fact that you've noticed you.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: I just went back to it in preparation for a thought,
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: and I don't have the quote in front of me,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: but in general talent that I would like to talk about,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: whether male or femal Jew or non Jew, one who
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: who accordingly will get the Holy Spirit. And again, the
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Holy Spirit was not something that the rabbits talked about
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: a lot, or they sort of Professor Erbach said that,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: you know, they the rabbis got rid of prophecy, and
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: it was when you had a direct line to God
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: through second Temple times you tried to access God was
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: through the templar through prophets. Once the rabbis decided that
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Torah was the arbiter and understanding Torah, prophecy was gone.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Tadbaba, who also has a strong sense of prophecy, was
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: that because it's later, or is this and there was
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: a stream within rabbinic Judas called the hasid dien which
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Cephrai and others have written about, who thought that the
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Holy Word was still accessible. There was a real minor stream.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: But it's there in the end mission of Sota, which
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: is a Brita where they talk about the different steps
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: how to achieve the Holy Spirit. So this idea of
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: the accessibility is interesting. Is that a product of being later.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: The only thing that happens for sure from the eighth
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: century and on or ninth century is philosophy comes into play,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: something I claim anyway was very very missing, And Lieberman
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: and Wolfson all say there are almost no philosophic terms
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: in Rabtic literature in spite of the fact that there
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: are three thousand Greek terms. No philisophic terms is epicureanism.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: But that's who was it thek Lilieberman said about it.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: Calling somebody epicurean in rabbinic times is like calling somebody
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: a communist in the fifties in America, which is a
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: general slur. So I think philosophy will bring in later.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: Possibly I'm a move towards universalism when I can tell
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: them whatever more to say about But Tea Develo is
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: not a philosophic work. It's from the draatship work. So
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: maybe it's these the voice of the hassidin coming to
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: life again, you know, working its way into this final work.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Can I ask a questions about the whole philosophy and
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: univers doesn't think of rubinning or lack of philosophy and
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: universalism literature. What do you believe to be the chicken
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: and the egg in that particular relationship? In other words,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: is it the rabbis weren't particularly interested in philosophy, and
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: therefore universalism didn't really take rut or develop because of
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: that or on the country, because there was because particularism,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: as you claim, eventually one out certainly that I'm a
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: right period. Therefore, there wasn't much of an interest in
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the sort of things that Greeks and others were trying
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: to say.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Do you think wish? Do you think was more? Of
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: course multifacts.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: I won't answer your question, but I will say the
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: following one. The language of the rarebis is Hebrew or Aramaic.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: Now you can use that language to develop that language
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: into a philosophic basis, which will be done in the
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: Middle Ages. But basically it's the way if you're working
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: only in Hebrew and in arame you're cutting yourself off
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: a bit. One two is all of rabbinic literature, the
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: oral literature, mission mid Rush, probably oral Talmud. All of
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: it is a way of defending against any kind of
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: discussion that's not missionary. Total. Now that won't say that
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: ideas or or some popular philosophy won't sneak in there.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: It will. But I saw the whole way rabbinic literature
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: defined itself as an oral literature, anthological literature. It was
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: all intended not to open itself up to other schools,
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: even though they do bring in, you know, stories that
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: are in they're in ASoP or stuff like that. With philosophy.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: I don't think they're those who have claimed there's philosophy there.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: For example, quote the famous Morning and Run. This is
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: big CHAMAI and Minhillo debated whether it was good for
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: a person to be born or not for two and
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: a half years. Now, could they have debated that without
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: using idea philosophic terms? What's missing most is philosophic analysis,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: a philosophica, a trained way of arguing what you do have,
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: that trained way of arguing. In legal stuff, even in
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: that godic scept but mostly illegal. I don't see it
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: in the history of ideas.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I see, okay, that's uh, that's that's that's fair enough.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: And would you say that No, no, exactly, I've been
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: taking the where they were say.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: They were now that is true.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: But this is an interesting point that because as you say,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: I am going to bring it up when we discuss
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: this with Manakam Kellner. The extent to which philosophy demands
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: or is is uh causes. I suppose a kind of
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: openness the world, because if you engage in philosophy, the assumption,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: presumably is that other people who aren't Jewish might have
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: interesting things to say, or might discover other interesting things.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: And you know, I suppose that if you're trying to
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: say that the particular strain one out, so then naturally
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: the rabbi, the natural rubinic literature from that point onwood
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: would not open itself up to philosophy you're claiming. I think,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: as far as I understood you, something even strong watch
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: is that the very forms that rabbinical literature took were
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: designed in a way to be a kind of internal
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: rabbinic language and therefore keep out other forms of this
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: course that were unwelcome.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've said it for a long time. I don't
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: know whether it's accepted not, but I really do think
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: that's the case. You're the amazing figures of the Midillage
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: is sadly got on and by minies. How they wrote
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: about synthesis or some kind of marriage between their strong
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: rabbinic moorings and Arabic philosophy which they knew so well
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: is amazing. But that's right.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll get on that in a later conversation.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I'm curious actually, cause you touch a little bit upon
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: form the forms of Robinic Christian I want to ask
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: a little bit about that, because, as you mentioned, there
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: are as is well known, you know, the more plain
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: halachic forms like Mishner and mi Drussian, like halacking midrasts,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: also argadic forms, is also legal and other kinds of
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: discussion in the Talmud and other forms of midrashic work,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: et cetera. And I wanted to ask me this access
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: of universalism particularism does it does it have a bearing
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: over what kind of discuss what form, what rabbinic genre
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: is used here? In other words, can it be said
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: that there's a midrashic form of discussion that lends itself
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: to one side of mississismo uni or sorry of particularism
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: of universalism? Is there a kind of a lucky discussion
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: which leads the way in one form or another? Is
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: is one side of this debate more conducive to one
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: type of rabbinic discussion or those two things entirely separate questions.
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: I'm glad you asked that question because it leads me
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: into today's scholarship, and which has its predecessors in the
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: last one hundred years. And this is what I want
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: to say about it. A scholet like Richard Hydari lame
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: mosk of it have made claims that you can more Richard,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: but I think I remember lab correctly also, and that
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: you can see rhetorical modes akin to Greek modes in
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: rabbinic literature. The question is whether that's by design or
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: by imported or whether that's normal kind of legal discussion.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: That's another question. I say, also because there's a strong
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: scholarly movement now trying to trace Roman influences on Mishna
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: on law and the Romans were the great legalists, and
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: trying to claim that some you know, some of our
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: constumers came from there, so that you know, Furstenberg and
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: Bertillo and many others are working on this Kniehoff, so
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: that there seems to be an attempt to show that
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: it wasn't entirely closed off. I say, certainly all the
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: Greek loanwords three thousand means a lot. But I think
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: if you take any scholar toleris coover nowadays, there will
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: be Coca cola. They're also you know there's some something
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: in the air also, but bo As Cohen wrote about
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: this over one hundred years ago. Roman and Jewish law,
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: and the beginnings are there, and we'll see what they
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: come up with. It's it's still in its infants. You know,
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: there's a strong move to see an influence of Roman
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: legalism and Roman thought and Jewish literature. I think the jury.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Is out, Okay, fair enough, that's uh that that's not
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: about answers I always wanted to.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: I mean we touched on this little bit. No, No,
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: it's it's as close to see.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: The problem with a lot of the questions that I'm asking,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: of course, is that in general rabbinic literature is is
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: a little bit frustrating when it comes to trying to
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: give definite answers to these questions, because when it comes
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: to the medieval period in side of the modern period,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: which is one of the things I study, you have
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: entire books written by very by specific people who we know,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: who we can trace, who we can you know, I
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: can give you some definitive answers on the what like
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: rumbam photo side of some things like that, where comes
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: there are writings, it's much more dificult anthologies, all edited later,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: all difficult to piece together to general world views of
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: specific people, specific schools. We're talking about much more fragmentary evidence.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: So that's why I'm saying a lot of stuff ads
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: you're giving are probably about as close as we are going.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: To get to something like a different about.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can go I at the beginning of
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: my book on Torah for all the People's in Hebrew,
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: which has that article in overy Theological which summarized it,
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: and I talked about Sita ma chef t a system
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: of thought, talk about the universalist school. And I remember
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: meeting one of the chief students of philosophy here at
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: least schwide in the street and he say, how can
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: you talk about systematic thought with the rabbi? He objected
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: to the phrase, But I think there is system there.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: It wasn't presented, it's it's not out upfront. But I
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: think it's wrong to think that these great great scholars
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: didn't work out in their minds a system that worked
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: for them, whether there's a geeble you smell or all
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: the others. Later, I think certainly in law, and I
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: think also in Agada. That's my view of it.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: But am I right, fair enough, who could possibly know?
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: The last sort of major question I want to ask
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: is regarding the afterlife of rabbinic ideas of universe, Because
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: of course we've noted that in medieval period there are
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: this question does come up. Of course the modern period
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: question comes up. But do you think that the kinds
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: of discussions on universalism in particularism that we see in
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: later centuries after the rabbis, are they essentially the same
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: questions in different guys or they complete different sets of questions?
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: In other words, is there a legacy of the Rubbia
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: shmorrob a kiva argument here that that that is transposed
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: into later later generations or no, we're talking about that
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: that ended and then something entirely different, with different historical
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: and intellectual circumstances came along and supplanted.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: It for the second. But yeah, I just want to
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: say this about it, that the rabbinic legacy of proabbistic
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: thought of two schools at least if not more. I
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: mentioned their third school with the with the Hobly Spirit school,
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: I think there is almost died out maybe with the
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: but I don't know. And my Manorites code and this
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: whole codification people have written about that, but I do
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: want to say just one more thing about that. I think,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: what what one in the Jewish view, for the most part,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: with the chosen people idea. And once you're that chosen
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: people idea, you're either with us or against us, And
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: with us means be one of us and against us.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: It's easy to understand nowadays. So and I think Schmael's
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: view that Torah could enhance everyone's spirituality, I think that
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: just die out interesting.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough on that, Rather somber notes, I will
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: draw the main conversation to a close. I want to
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: ask a final question which I asked many of my guests,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: which is I usually broach the question if you could
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: sit down to dinner with the main subject of your investigation,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: what would you be asking them?
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Of course, today we've been discussing two main individuals in
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: the Ubinika corpus or keeper ub your smile, So let
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: me ask, I mean, if you could sit with one
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: of them, Firstly, which would it be, Who do you
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: think would would make more trinking dinner company? And what
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: kind of topic would you broach with them? Having discussed
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: them and analyzed their works?
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Let me evade their question by giving you a story,
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: please do. I was privileged to be a student in
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: the really enormous sixties of the great of the Jewish
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: Theological seminary, saw Liebram and Dimitrovsky as my teacher. How
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: Liven you can't even imagine the big groom was running
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: around there, hl Ginsworth. It was amazing because because the
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: university world and that opened up yet entirely in the
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: same thrust or a few chairs in Jewish studies, and
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: it was about it. It was about to open up
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: and explode. So great minds gathered in these theological seminary.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: So I just want to say about Liebram and Libram
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: was the greatest Talmulus of his generation, probably many generations.
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: And I saw him walking on Riverside Drive on Broadway
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: one night at eleven o'clock at night by himself, and
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: I crossed over the walk with him and didn't talk
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: to me. We got to the stop by it and
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: he turns to me, he says, I just wanted to
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: get to the end of the chapter he was reciting
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: Mission about Heart. Now that's only one little piece of
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: this genius. Besides from memory, he was working hard at it.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: And what I understood from Libraman from all my years
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: around him, was you never really understand what great people
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: are thinking. So whoever I would sit down with, I'm
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: not sure I would understand them anyway.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: That's a fascinating way to answer the question, and also
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: somewhat dispiriting. Why you're saying, even if you had her
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Bikia and your swallow at your dinner table and you
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: could ask them what you were uh, you know, whatever
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: question you want. You saying that even under such circumstances,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: that be a limit to what you could get out
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: of them are or to what you can understand what
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: they were already trying to say.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Well, especially who was reflecting God's high language, maybe would
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: have a chance, he would have speak in my language.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: You're saying, dubber Rabbish, that's what you're saying. Okay, fine,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: I would.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I Yeah, that's a very reasonable answer of a reasonable possibility.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Professor Mark Hushman, thank you so very much for joining
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: us on the Podcast of Jewish Ideas. This has been
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: a wonderful conversation and we look forward to seeing your
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: future studies in this field.
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Very good. Thank you.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: This has been the podcast of Jewish Ideas by in Motion,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: produced by Alisha Kellman and myself.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: JJ Kimbri, edited and mixed by Alisha Kelman.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: You can stay up to date by subscribing in your
• 1:00:00
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• 1:00:02
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• 1:00:05
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