Latest / IMI Podcasts / #13: Mohammed Asaria - More Due Diligence Needed on Caribbean CBI Developers

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#13: Mohammed Asaria - More Due Diligence Needed on Caribbean CBI Developers · IMI Podcasts

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: in St.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we detect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Christian Nestem, editor of Investment Migration Insider, and my guest in today's episode is Mohamed Astaria of Range Development, the Caribbean's leading CBI developer, builder of three five-star developments in the region, and with several more on the drawing board.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: The agenda during this episode included a progress report from Mohammed's third project in the region, its extensive in Grenada, the scourge of illegal TBI discounting, and how it's being dealt with, why most developers don't have what it takes to finish their project in the Caribbean, and where range developments are planning their next project.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of Mobility Standard.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI stories on our website, imidail.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Mohammed Asaria, very, very excited to have you here.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Frankly, it should have been a long time ago, but uh very, very pleased to have you here today, finally.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very well and thank you for the kind invitation.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of the work you've been doing, Christian, and in this series is absolutely phenomenal, and I hope you are able to continue for a long time.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you're setting the bar so high ahead of your own interview on the mobility standard.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: That bodes really well for this episode.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I think we should just start by getting kind of a status update from you, Mohammed, about your uh current development, your third in the Caribbean, the sixth census at Las Agges in Grenada.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, where are you right now in terms of construction progress and sales?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, Christian, we launched this project sometime back end of 2019, if I remember correctly.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and basically, we obviously had corona for a large part of the development cycle.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: But notwithstanding, we are on track, and we are gonna open on the allotted time.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've managed to recover all the lockdown delays.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're on track for completion of quarter one, 2023.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's close to 500 people on site working today.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Work is going on on each one of the 49 buildings which comprise the resort.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it's been quite an experience working and mobilizing through Corona, especially in a country where a lot of things have to be procured externally, both in terms of labor and supplies.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to give you uh an example, we have to import 200,000 items from 5,000 different suppliers.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: That is a logistical nightmare without Corona, but you know, as you can imagine, Corona and supply chain crises haven't made that process easier.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: But notwithstanding, and not wanting to brow our own trumpet too large, we're on track.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: The product, the final product will be absolutely phenomenal.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be Six Centres's first development in the Caribbean.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, on, and I believe you visited our site on what is a truly incredible um site.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sales have been going well.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Phase one is close to 90% sold today.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be announcing phase two of the development, given it's been such a success in the coming weeks, probably early in the new year, um, when we'll be officially making that announcement.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and very soon you'll be hearing about other endeavors we're going to be carrying out in Grenada.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we will we will get to that.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: You've piqued my interest now, uh Mohammed, and we'll certainly talk about that uh later on in the show.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm curious, you said uh 200,000 components from uh 5,000 different suppliers that you're ordering.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously, yes, that must be a logistical nightmare.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: But um how would you say, you know, this is since this is your third development, and I I assume that um you've had to go through that whole rigma role in the past, both in St.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts and in Dominica, you do you think that you're more efficiently developing in Grenada as a result of your experience in the other islands?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're all guided by life's experiences every single day.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Once you've done something twice and then you do it a third time, um, you know, you have an experience and you have a skill set.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: We have a fantastic team who are intricately involved in this and have done it before, and they know exactly where to procure from.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: We know the lead times, we know the challenges, you know, we know the pros and cons of each different supplier.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a trial and error development.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we take a very institutional approach, and that's why we are successful.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, you you visited us in St.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Kids and Dominica, correct?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I went to uh your finished development after it was finished in uh St.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kidd's the Park Hyatt, and then I also went to under construction Kempinski in Dominica, and I briefly visited Grenada, but this was before you had uh actually begun construction.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm sure you can attest to the quality that we build to, huh?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And also the pace of construction.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: None of this happens by accident.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, obviously, yeah, I can definitely attest to it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: At least uh the one where I stayed, which was the the Park Hyde, I had a tremendous experience there, and uh it's absolutely beautiful.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And as you say, it's it's something that is uh incredibly complex and very difficult to pull off.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and you're doing this for the third time now in the Caribbean, and I'm kind of curious, you know, this is also for the the uh budding developers, CBI developers out there, you know, what are some of the lessons that you've learned uh developing in the Caribbean?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's obviously an idiosyncratic type of uh uh real estate development market, and so the Caribbean is itself idiosyncratic, but then it's it's even more specialized in that it's CBI development specifically in the Caribbean.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are what are some of the, let's say, you know, how has it shaped you as a as an entrepreneur and as a person, and how have you become different through that process?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure how I've become different, um, but let's let's take a step back.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: When you undertake business, you have to have experience, and there's no substitute for experience.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you have to be very resilient, you have to have very thick skin to get to the end successfully on a development.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the Caribbean or any development is not for the faint-hearted, whether it's in Dubai, Madrid, or or Grenada.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, ultimately, it's not as easy as putting a sign up saying citizenship by investment for sale and buying a piece of land and hitting and hoping.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be a very well-thought-out strategy from the design stage.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, millions of dollars have to be spent on design to make sure the end product is viable and sustainable and makes economical sense.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have to have a team who know how to build, okay?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you as an entrepreneur, whether young or old, have to have the ability and skill set to manage that team and know enough about the subject matter to ensure you're successful.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Whilst a lot of people may be good at raising capital through citizenship by investment, you ask some basic questions about building and they'll look at you blankly.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you ask plenty of people who know how to build about citizenship by investment, and they will look at you blankly.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So marrying those two skill sets up is really why I think we're unique.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and let me put the question back to you.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: In the past decade, and that's how long I've been doing this, has anyone else built anything of substance or value under the citizenship by investment scheme on the real estate limb?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: But certainly nobody has the track record that you you have.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You built uh two to completion, and uh quickly, uh very soon you'll be finishing the third.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to ask you on the fourth.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get to that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, you built those two resorts, you're finishing your third.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: You flirted in the past with St.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Lucia, but decided against it in the end.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the only CIP jurisdiction in the region that you haven't tried out is Antigua and Barbuda.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you've almost run out of Caribbean CBI countries to try your hand at.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm curious as to what's next for you, what's next for range?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, are you looking to programs elsewhere in the world or are you doubling down on the Caribbean?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Would you consider golden visa programs uh in Europe?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Vanuatu maybe.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing next?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, look, I think it's really important to understand your skill set in life, Christian.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and also understand the competitive landscape.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Vanuatu, uh, some of the European programs, there's plenty of organic developers in those countries who know how to build, who I'm sure are very successful.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um, you know, will will be successful with the citizenship program or residence program in their relevant countries.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Our skill set is the Caribbean.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not trying a jurisdiction.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: We need to understand the dynamics in the jurisdiction, the rule of law, how that citizenship program is perceived before we make a decision to invest.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because we invest a significant amount of our own money before we even think about raising capital through citizenship by envelopment.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's the only way you can be successful in development.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you can't put a sign up outside your door saying CBI for sale, and you know, you sell one citizenship, you buy some concrete, you sell another one, you buy some more concrete.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the cost of a good piece of land, a beautiful piece of land, the cost of design.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're talking in the tens of millions of dollars before we've even started.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and unless someone is going to be focused and take an institutional approach and is well capitalized, they're not going to get through to the finish, they're not going to get through to the finish line.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, so are you saying that you know over the years you've developed this very special competence specifically for Caribbean CBI development, and that that very particular skill set isn't necessarily transferable or that you won't have a competitive edge elsewhere the way you have it in the Caribbean.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're what you mean?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Spot on Christian, I've been to Lisbon once.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: You asked me how to get planning approval in Lisbon.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: You asked me why the Golden Visa works in Lisbon but not in the Algarve.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm sure we could learn it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: But there's some very well-established players there.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe in life.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's enough opportunity where you have knowledge and experience, why go and chance it somewhere else?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready to tell us what you're doing next specifically?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are you uh it'll be another development in Grenada.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And just give me a little bit of time until we finalize all the agreements with the hotel operator, but it will be something truly special.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you saw our site in Grenada, I think you realized it was close to 60 acres.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we've always said we're building two hotels on that site.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and very soon we'll be signing agreements with the the second hotel operator, which is another five-star plus uh operator, which will which will really achieve what we we set out to from from the outset in Grenada.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, why is it that you are, I mean, you've you've built in St.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts, Dominica, and Grenada, and now you are building a second or you have a second project in Grenada.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you end up choosing Grenada a second time over St.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts and Dominica?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something inherently more attractive about the hospitality market in Grenada?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it do you do you gel better with uh the local market or government, or what is it that that makes you choose Grenada a second time?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, we have wonderful relationships with St.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Kitts, Dominica, and Grenada, both with the local community and at the governmental level.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I I think you visited some of our community projects, and you know, it's incumbent on foreign developers to make where they develop their home and become fabric of that society.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've built community centers in St.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Kitts, we work with, you know, we've sponsored farms, invested in local farms in Dominica, and we've undertaken a whole array of CSR activities in Grenada on on a weekly basis.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and at the end of the day, we're the only people who've said who've done what they said they're going to do.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've created close to a thousand jobs in Synkids, a little bit shy of that number in Dominica, and currently doing that in Grenada.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when it comes to relationships, we've earned the trust of the relevant governments.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um why another project in Grenada?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Christian, at the end of the day, Grenada has something unique in terms of its citizenship offering in that it has access to the United States through the E2 visa treaty, and that's unique amongst Caribbean countries.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh our investors find that a significant benefit, um, and there has been significant demand for our offering as a consequence.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what tips the balance in favor of Grenada uh in terms of your decision.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh the E2.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I never said it was a mutually exclusive decision.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: You only asked me about the fourth.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't ask me whether there was a fifth or a sixth.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I may as well.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a fifth or a sixth?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Christian, we're looking at we'll I I can be very open and transparent with you and say we're looking at things in other islands.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um don't push me any further than that for information.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but those we're looking at other projects which are not in Grenada as well, in the Caribbean.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Very well, very well.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you obviously have an extensive track record of successful CBI project completions in the Caribbean.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the Caribbean, but the Caribbean, as such, CBI programs in the Caribbean have more of a checkered track record when it comes to finishing projects.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there are lots of half-finished projects, some never break ground at all.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think this is a recurring pattern in the Caribbean?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you think can be done to counteract it in some way?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, look, I think there needs to be more due diligence on the individuals who are behind those projects.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying they come to the table with bad intent, but their skill set needs to be diligenced a lot more.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Going back to the same question, do they know how to build?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Have they built before?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, building a hotel, a resort in the Caribbean is not for the faint-hearted.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: CBI aside, how many branded hotels have been built in Grenada, Dominica San Kids, Antigas, and Lucia in the last decade?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: A handful.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about low single digits, aside from range.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's not a CBI Pacific problem.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately, a lot of people will come to the Caribbean on holiday or they'll get an economic citizenship and they'll turn around and say, How hard can this be?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a wonderful piece of land.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's start building.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And a few months in they realize that this is a lot more hard work than they anticipated, and unfortunately the project fizzes away and an individual ends up owning some land.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: But what are those typical stumbling blocks that people come across?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So look, if you're for the sake of argument, you're a large businessman in Spain, you're building ten hotels in Madrid, okay?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you go to the Caribbean on holiday, you think what a great place to build.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then a few months later, you know, dealing with the bureaucracy, dealing with the logistics, dealing with learning the lay of the land, it all becomes very time-consuming.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: You have to live it, you have to breathe it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just like this developer may be very well cemented in society in Spain.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he'll probably get to the stage where he thinks this is too much hassle, then it's worth, let me continue with business in my home geor in my home geography.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that project doesn't progress.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Another individual may be very good at raising capital through CBI.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, you ask him about the different types of concrete, and he looks at you like a like a lost, a lost puppy.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for him to try and develop that skill set or have trusted people around him who can develop that skill set is very, very difficult.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's unfortunately what's happening time and time again.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, across the CBI countries or across development generally in the Caribbean, the promoter's background needs to be assessed very, very carefully.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Why range is unique is that I have a business partner, a gentleman who's by the name of Kamal Shahada, who spent five decades, and yes, five decades, fifty years, um, in the construction industry in various places all around the world, who's a very resilient individual.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's moved to the Caribbean because, again, you can't run a business like this by remote control, sitting from Spain or Dubai, and he's physically rebased himself there.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's on it to make sure the projects get built with the speed and quality that we set out.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that you have to contend with as someone who sells real estate for 220,000, which is the mandated minimum investment in Grenada, is that there are companies out there selling citizenship by investment in other Caribbean jurisdictions under the real estate option, but at discounted rates.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have two questions specifically about this.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, how do how do you uh adapt?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do you tackle that?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you uh you know compete with somebody who is selling something uh similar, although not built, but but for a much lower price?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And two, logistically, how does such illegal discounting work in in practice?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: How are they able to to do it?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: So look, I don't know how these things work in practice, but using your words, illegal discounting.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: The individuals we deal with, the people who've made their money the right way, and for a couple of ten, twenty, thirty thousand dollars, don't want to engage in something which you refer to as illegal discounting.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um these are people who've worked hard, have reputations in their home countries, are pillars of society, and those are the individuals that we do we do business with.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, at the end of the day, with some of these offers, again, I'm not sure how they structured, but the underlying investor doesn't really own anything.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think they refer to them as financing options, um, where they pay a lower amount.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And our investors invariably will pull up a copy of the law, they'll review our offering documents, and I'm sure they'll review others against whatever it says in the relevant legislation, and they form a view as to what they're comfortable proceeding with.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: But but why do you think that this problem is so pernicious?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, why why why is it so hard to get rid of this issue?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, when repeatedly, year after year, people are raising funds through the CBI program, uh, ostensibly to build hotel projects, and then they don't build them, the CBI applicant does get citizenship, the agent does get a commission, the developer does raise funds and and keeps a significant amount of it, but nothing is built.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: How is this pattern allowed to go on?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Christian, I'm not a regulator.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I focus on what I'm doing, which is to build our hotels on budget and to quality.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: If I involve myself in trying to be a regulator, I wouldn't have the time to do what I'm mandated to do.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we just focus on getting our job done and whatever everyone else does, you know, we wish them we wish them the best of luck, whether that's the regulator, the client, the applicant, or the agent.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: All I will say is our investors are typically the ultra high net worth individuals.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: They want to do things properly, they want to invest in good quality projects, they want links to their country, they want to see their investment.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Develop the country.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: They want to see the economic impact.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're very focused on ESG style investments.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we take all those boxes.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of the means by which the Caribbean CIUs have attempted to deal with this illegal discounting is that they're now naming and shaming people on public blacklists, or not people, but agents.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think this is an effective means of preventing that type of malfeasance?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense, no?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: If the CBIU unit in a relevant country is identifying that ABC is not acting in conformity with the law, they have a duty and they have an obligation to inform their potential applicants that do not transact with this company or do so at your own peril.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a great approach.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: They should even write to the regulator in that individual's home country and say ABC is doing XYZ.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Please take action accordingly because no one wants the public to be hoodwicked.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and indeed uh Les Kahn encouraged uh reporting um those uh transgressing agents to him directly in an interview we did with him um a couple months ago.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is that is happening, and we see now that the the blacklists are growing slowly, uh, but they are growing.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh so far there are only three programs that have adopted that uh practice of blacklists.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: They are uh well, first one was uh St.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Kitts and Nevis, then Dominica, and now also in Malta they're doing it for both the main policy and the uh permanent residency program.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look, you see what happens when things go wrong, like in Cyprus, no?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad that we have a naming and shaming approach um so that um you know we we don't have a repeat of the Cypriot example in the remaining CBI countries.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: CBI is too relevant and too important to the relevant economies for um for it to be risked.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now you said that you mentioned uh Mohammed that um your investors, the investors that you um take on in Saint no in um Grenada for the Sixth Census, that they are, you know, their uh ESG investment uh conscious.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: They are um they want to have ties to the country.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm curious as to, you know, uh are you seeing any changes in patterns in terms of investors relocating to Grenada?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, traditionally, for all the CBI programs in the Caribbean, uh hardly any of the investors have actually moved to the island.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that still the same or is that changing now in a post-pandemic world?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think anyone is relocating immediately to Grenada.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: It may be at the back of their minds for a retirement um plan.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I am seeing a lot of individuals visit Grenada, which is more so than in my other developments, and that might be a function of post-pandemic times.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um people feel comfortable or want to visit their home country, and you know, just be ready that God forbid we have pandemic two or pandemic three, that they have um they have they're they're familiar with their backup plan.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: But what I am seeing is that given Grenada gives you the backup plan of the US E2 visa, um, which when you invest in the United States as a Grenadian subject to fulfilling certain criteria, you have the ability to relocate there within a very short period of time.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um many individuals are motivated by that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um not only do they have a second citizenship which hedges against some of the political, economic, and social risks in their home country, they have the travel benefits, but also they have access to the world's largest economy for them and their children.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you mentioned E2 and how and how that is an important factor uh that weighs uh in favor of the Grenadian CIP.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Talking just about your own investors in six census, uh how you know what proportion of them would you say are picking Grenada primarily um over the other programs, primarily because they're interested in the E2?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh one thing is to have the E2 as a it's a nice to have, it's a backup plan maybe one day.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm asking about the proportion that pick Grenada specifically because they already have a desire to go on to an E2 visa.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say it's about 15 to 20 percent who fall into that bucket.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: But most people are very interested in the E2 program, um, whether for themselves or their children, um whether now or at a future date.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they find that as a very attractive um add-on.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's basically uh it's an it's an additional feather in Grenada's cap in terms of its second citizenship.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, again, it's uh at its at a at some stage down the track, will be utilized by either that investor or his children.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I when I was in Grenada, you know, in 2018, uh I did a trip through uh the five Caribbean um CVI countries to to do a documentary series, which if anybody's interested, they can find, uh just search for CIP documentary on imydaily.com.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember that the then head of the Citizenship Commission in Grenada told me uh that 98% of investors were from mainland China.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um that market has been severely disrupted by the pandemic.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know in some cases uh they have trouble renewing their passports.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously there are very, very tough border controls, capital controls have become stricter, etc.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um So suffice it to say, demand from China has been negatively impacted by the pandemic.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And because it was such a big contingent of the uh Grenada CIP market, I'm assuming it must have also affected um the way you do business in range developments.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's harder to get Chinese clients than it was in the past.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious as to how you have adapted the way that you work, the way you target the Chinese market, um, whether you are uh targeting other markets uh more than before, now that China has become more challenging.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can't speak for what used to happen, but since I've been involved in Grenada, there suddenly hasn't been 98% of the market being from China.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's where the program started, because I think going back four or five years when you did your documentary series, um maybe there were some Chinese promoters who were heavily involved in it, and that's why there was a bias towards China.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we have quite widespread geographical distribution, whether that's Russia, Middle East, Vietnam, the subcontinent, Africa, um, or even coming into South America.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, our geographical distribution base isn't reliant on one country.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And for the reasons you rightly mentioned, if you have a hiccup in one country or the reputation of the relevant CBI country is tarnished, you have a problem with your business.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: The same way our distribution over the last 18 months, 24 months has widened.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, we're not there's no individual or group which makes up a large proportion of our distribution.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's very granular and very spread out, and that's how a sustainable business is built.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have many legs upon which to stand in that sense.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh who would you say are the top three, top five nationalities that are investing in six senses?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Look, Russia, uh, Middle East, subcontinent, West Africa, uh, Vietnam, China.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's equally spread out across these six geographical regions.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are you seeing any interest from Americans at all?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Not as much as I'm reading.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you've written some great articles on the uh on on the US investors um looking at Caribbean CBI, but yeah, we've we're not seeing the volumes that you're um that maybe some of my peers uh are benefiting from.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think uh it's not as pronounced that trend in the Caribbean as it is among the European Golden Visa programs.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think the preponderance of American interest has been directed toward Europe rather than the Caribbean, actually.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Although there has been an uptick among Americans also in the Caribbean, statistically speaking.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I have one question for you, um Mohammed, that I remember we spoke about this um uh uh privately a while ago.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you expressed to me uh at one point some uh I won't I wouldn't say regret, but some, you know, in hindsight, you you indicated to me that maybe there would have been maybe a better business for you would have been to be a CBI agent rather than uh a developer.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and I was thinking about it, and you know, you've been active as a developer for many years, and you've sourced business directly from a lot of markets, the ones you mentioned just now.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and you used to, you know, go to go frequently to China.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh indeed, I think the first time you and I met was many years ago in Shanghai.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you were there to correct.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: We had a wonderful lunch at the Kempinskay, I remember it well.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, with Gao Tien, yeah.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, I guess you were there to court the big agencies uh that are not so big anymore.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um I'm just wondering, this experience and extent of activity obviously means you have considerable distribution networks and experience in many source markets.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So is there any reason range can't pivot to also becoming a CBI advisory firm in addition to being a developer?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: You asked me a question about 10 minutes ago.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Would I venture into Portugal or other Vanuatu?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Christian, honestly, there's not enough hours in the day to do all of this.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Our skill set is development, and we're good at it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And assisting people who wish to get Caribbean citizenship.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if someone walks in through the door talking about Canada or the US or Portugal, we politely just smile and say, sorry, we can't help you.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're not cut out to provide them that best advice.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and honestly, we don't even if we wish to go down that line, we don't have the time.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um let me remind you of what I said: 200,000 items from 5,000 different suppliers.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is a logistical nightmare, okay, developing, and it's hard work.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there comes a limit.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, whilst I'm still young and God give me a long life and good health, I certainly don't want to spend every single hour of the day behind my desk looking at all these other and silly sources of revenue.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it time?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think you'll you'll have a little lull in activity after you're finishing uh after you're finished up in six census, or will you uh move straight ahead to your your next step without even a holiday in between?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Holiday in between, every day is I enjoy what I do, and that's what keeps us going.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's uh it's a very rewarding, it's a very rewarding role I have.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Two things keep me going.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I like seeing what we've created from an empty piece of land, we transform it into a landmark development, which has far-reaching economic consequences for the community and the island.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that you know, I find that incredibly satisfying.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And secondly, assisting people to overcome some of the challenges and prejudice by they have from their home, from their first nationality is also something else which I find incredibly rewarding.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, whilst I whilst I enjoy those two things um tremendously.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, as you mentioned, uh citizenship by investment has a very positive effect on the development of uh a lot of these small countries in the Caribbean, and it has a very positive influence or positive developments for the investors, the individuals whose lives are transformed by participating in citizenship by investment programs.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you've you've seen it firsthand, you you you you see tangible results, um, both in terms of the country development and in terms of the transformational effect it has on the lives of those clients.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the steps you think can be taken either at the policy level or at the company level and the in among private actors to kind of take this to the next level to have an even bigger impact?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's part of the evolution of this business.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Going forward in this time of scarce capital, um when every dollar means a lot to a sovereign state, I think projects will be assessed going forward on how many jobs they're creating, how much revenue is coming into the country, uh, what is the wider economic impact of that development, and then the tick will be given for that development.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in addition, where in the country it is.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: If it's in the middle of a town, you know, the capital of a relevant Caribbean country which is doesn't need any more development, it'll probably be perceived to be less favorable than one which is in an emerging community.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's a function of time.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um as more and more successful projects are completed, um, more individuals or more governments will look at this and say, okay, let's allocate our finite resource, which is citizenship, to projects which bring us the highest and largest economic impact.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's an evolution that we're seeing.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if we try to think a little bit, five years ahead, uh, five years into the future, obviously it's uh impossible to predict anything uh with what's going on uh in terms of the pandemic, but five years from now, where do you think we'll be with Caribbean CBI?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: What's going to be different?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: What will change about policy?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: What will change about pricing?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Will it become more expensive, less expensive?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh will we see different types of investment options?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's the trend?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the trend taking us?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Very good question.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if I had a crystal ball, I wouldn't be here on this broadcast.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be sitting on the roulette table in Vegas, um, you know, making 36 times my money on every wheel of the roulette table.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a very difficult question to answer.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not a politician, and whilst I am engaged in certain policy debates, uh what the new rules and regulations are as pertain to citizenship, all I can say is each government has a desire to see development, and for the right project, they will facilitate that development, whether that's in terms of terms of concessions, exemptions, tax benefits, CBI benefits, developments which have value, which are landmark, which are transformative, I think will be encouraged in under the CBI laws.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for today, folks.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions you have about investment migration.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to remind you to follow our work on imidaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.