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Episode 23: How to Find an Authentic Food Supply · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be dedicated.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, dedicated to at least as much interest in our menu, our provenance for our food, as we are in, you know, what our kids are learning in school, the kind of car we're gonna buy, the the pediatrician we we uh we get, uh goodness, you know, a vacation, right?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you gonna go on vacation?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, think of the think of the time and planning to that, to that.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Our body's fuel requires that level of attention as well.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't just magically appear.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, there are way more options now than there were just 20 years ago.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Way more options.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we want to talk about.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Beyond Labels.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Stephen McCullough with Joel Salatin, everyone's favorite farmer.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Joel.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Sena.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be with you today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Last week we left off talking about the new bioengineered labeling law, right?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: The new GMO labeling law.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we said we were gonna talk about solutions.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to point out that when the new labeling law came out, I actually didn't even look at it for a couple weeks because it doesn't affect me, right?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've already found my solution, and which is buying authentic food uh from my local farmers.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is something that I think is very critical for people to understand that if you haven't yet found an authentic food supply, you are gonna be at the whim of the government and the lobbyists and these regulators, the bureaucracy, and how they change the rules, right?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And how complicated the rules are and how complex the system is.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I opt out of the system.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Cena, and Cena, and and actually as as we showed last week, um how how uh um how unresponsive or unhelpful.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I just would say unhelpful, um, the labeling laws are, even when they're passed by, you know, uh people that you hope would, you know, have your interests at heart, the these these officials, the the agricultural industrial complex does not have our benefits in mind.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the whole, you know, the whole labeling gig uh becomes suspect.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's that's the idea.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I uh list out a lot of examples in our book, Beyond Labels, right?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: About all of these labeling loopholes and nuances.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we really detailed how complicated these labels are.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, even for someone such as your you and myself, who have been in this space for quite some time, they're very complicated.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you and I are both in agreement that for us, the best option is to opt out of that system so that we are not slaves to these labels and to all the loopholes and all the lobby money that gets attached to it.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you and I um both utilize this as what I would call a free market solution, right?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: We speak with our dollars and we do that by finding an authentic food supply.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know a lot of people who want to find an authentic food supply and they don't know how to go about doing it, or when they find a farm, for instance, they're not sure what questions to ask.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought it'd be a great idea to have you on and um to really dive into this topic of how do you actually find an authentic food supply?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, this is such a great topic because uh just literally a couple weeks ago I had a young couple in at the farm here.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: They were doing a project and wanted to run some ideas by me.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and they're they're savvy, you know, that it's a pretty savvy couple, but they you know, they live in a in an urban sector, and um and and the wife was was uh whatever complaining about being able to find uh you know decent food.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was sitting there thinking, wait, wait a minute, what you if you're really looking for it, you can find it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so so I would lead here the number one thing that that I would lead off on this discussion is this food is not going to suddenly appear on your doorstep.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: You you have you have to decide, you you have to decide Cena, when you think of the of the time and hours and attention that you've put on uh on what we say uh on provenance, just as a as a broad idea of provenance.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: How are we going to supply our pantry, our table, our kitchen?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: When you when you think back of your journey toward this, mine's not as dramatic as yours because you know we grow almost all our own food here.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we've just, you know, I always said if we could buy, if we could figure out how to grow Kleenex and toilet paper, we could pretty much you know pull the plug on society.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: But but but you you have come to this and developed this, and the the the sheer effort, um, time and energy and attention on on provenance is um is significant.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I think that the the biggest, you know, the biggest uh whatever uh uh lie that that we tell ourselves as people is well, you know, I can I can just go on my merry way and have a different outcome without any effort.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and you know, Einstein, that's the that's that's the thing of insanity, right?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's doing the same thing and expecting a different uh result.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so at the outset, we have to be dedicated.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean dedicated to at least as much interest in our in our our menu, our provenance for our food as we are in you know what our kids are learning in school, uh, you know, the kind of car we're gonna buy, the the pediatrician we we uh we get, you know, those things we we put attention on that um uh goodness, you know, vacation, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you gonna go on vacation?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, think of the think of the time and planning to that to that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, uh our our body's fuel requires that level of attention as well.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't just magically appear.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, there are way more options now than there were just 20 years ago.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Way more options, and that's what we want to talk about.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so this includes everything from you know finding a farmer, going to farmers market, um, getting into the uh CSA, that's community supported agriculture, uh, that that's kind of morphing now uh with with protein boxes and things into more a general like a like a food subscription service, like you would subscribe to Netflix or you you would subscribe to a magazine or a newspaper.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um you can subscribe to um to food boxes.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and it's a you know, it's it's a it's it's a wonderful thing uh that just you know that just happens.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and farmers like it because you know they have a loyal, you know, customer base and they they can see out in the future, yeah, I've got this many subscriptions and this much, you know, stuff I have to grow and all that, it makes a big difference.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Including um, including, you know, visiting a farm.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, you know, I I think that there is tremendous value in going and visiting and and visiting vicariously, you know, spend some time on websites, uh, and and and and all of this that I'm discussing, CSA, know your farmer, visiting a farmer, websites, uh, subscription boxes, the the the entire, you know, um under the radar, under the radar provenance um um uh train, uh, you know, custody, all of that is a is a skill that you you gradually create over time.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: You talk to people, you hear who's good, who's not, what's what's right, what's you know, what's authentic, what's not.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: You develop skill at websites.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for example, I I had a I had an outfit uh uh call me recently and say, you know, um uh we've just been you know found out about ButcherBox, and uh they're trying to put themselves as a you know, the the homesteaders, you know, connection to the food supply.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I've never been on the website, so I just pull up the ButcherBox website, look.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, when you click on Meet Our Farmers, um, you go to the homepage Meet Our Farmers, and the background picture is five Tyson chicken houses.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know if they're Tyson, but they're you know they're factory chicken houses as the background photograph uh uh of Meet Our Farmers people.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't have to look any farther than that.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know that that's gonna be the same, the same um uh supply chain as Kroger's, they're just repackaging it and marketing it differently.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, this uh you know, Shenandoah Organics up here in the Shenandoah Valley, you know, they're a big outfit now, Shenandoah Organics.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: You go to their website, meet our farmers, and you can meet them, you know, they're you know, nice, you know, families and little kids and holding their kids and all that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're all standing in front of their big factory chicken houses, you know, organic, organic labeled uh chicken.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so you don't have to be a rocket scientist to start seeing some of this, picking it up, but it is a skill, it's a skill like any other.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh you don't get a skill by just you know uh uh putting your head in the sand and expecting things to happen.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's kind of my little quick uh song and dance scene.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, I'm glad to hear uh some of your story on on the effort and and and maybe some of the things where you thought you were getting good stuff and then it ended up not being good stuff, and you know, you kind of run back and forth.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it did take me a long time to find an authentic food supply.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that is because uh I didn't I didn't know anybody else who had an authentic food supply.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I wasn't in these the circles that I'm in today, so I didn't know who to ask.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I had to do a lot of the research on my own.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um what I would say is the work is really um it is quite a bit of work up front, a little bit of effort up front.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then the good thing is once you have found you know your handful of farmers, you don't have to keep doing the work, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's like you the you do it, you put the time into it, you find them, you get the food, you know, see if it agrees with you or not.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um then the only thing I do is occasionally I check back in, you know, and I ask the farmers, have you changed any of your any of your processes?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are you feeding something different now?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So always keep them accountable.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the good news is that it's like an upfront effort, um, and then you benefit from it, you know, from there on out.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um what I would like to do is help people give them a couple steps to start with.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that really helped me, because I didn't have word of mouth at the time, was um different websites.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you can just do an internet search and type in where you live and type in, you know, local farms, and farms will pop up, okay?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: But now there's actually websites that will help you find the different farms in your area.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I will include several websites in the show description, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So people can just click on it and see if these different farmers service their area.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: But some that you and I have mentioned before are eatwild.com, um, localharvest.org, appppa.org, um, and then there's farmbatch.com.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Another one is eatlocal.com, that one's coming soon.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um again, I'll put these in the show notes, but there's these websites that can help direct you to farmers.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So usually you go to the website, you type in you know your zip code, and it tells you different farmers that are in your area.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, once you find the farmers in your area, that's not the end of it, right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because not all farmers are farming equally.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So then you have to vet the farmer.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you can start, like you said, go to their the easy thing is to go to the actual farm's website, you know, peruse around, see what they say.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you want to be looking this, and I'll get your input on this too.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it depends on what you're looking for.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: If it's um if it's produce, for instance, you want to make sure they're uh not using genetically modified seeds.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: You want to make sure they're not spraying any pesticides or herbicides, not only you know, on the produce itself, but on the farm.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um you want to ask what where they're getting their water from.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um they don't have to be certified USDA organic, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots of loopholes in that label, and that's c it's very expensive for um small family farms to get that label, but you want to make sure that they're following certain practices that are aligned with your principles, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, and we can go into that in a minute, um, because I want to get your take on questions to ask the farmer.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But these are the steps.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you go to these websites, you find the local farmer in your area, and then you can go to the website, you're looking for certain language, which we'll talk about in a second.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I want to break it down per each category, you know, beef, produce, um, pastured poultry, and eggs.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, if if the website passes your test, then you can call the farm first and ask more detailed questions if they haven't answered them on the website.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, if you can, then you want to go visit the farm, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's the final step in the vetting process is you're gonna visit the farm.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna trust what they said on the website and and the phone, but verify, right?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Trust but always verify.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So give them the benefit of the doubt, but see it with your own eyes.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so so that's my my my like three-step process of how to vet um my local farmers.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and like you've said before, if you can't get to the farm, now there's things kind of unfortunately, but fortunately in this instant, there's like Google Maps, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where you can do the satellite version, you can see what's happening on the farm, you can you can see um you know if they move the chickens or whatnot.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, anyhow, that's the basic outline.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um what I'd like to do, um, if you're up for it, Joel, is to go into what are they looking for?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: What types of questions are they gonna ask?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with um if you're looking for truly pastured poultry and eggs, what would they be looking for?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: What would they be trying to ask the farmer well the the first thing that they're looking for uh number one is is feed source, uh you know, is it is it um GMO free?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um but but I would say I would say equal with that uh is how often are they moving?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when you go visit, what you're looking for, what you're looking for is green grass and not dirt.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and so if the animals, if they say yeah, the animals are outside, um, then you ask, well, is it portable housing or stationary housing?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of these outfits are using stationary housing with a with a yard that the chickens can go out in, and but but very quickly the yard turns into a barren moonscape and there's no grass there.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh chlorophyll is nature's number one detoxicant.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So uh detoxifier, I'm not sure which the proper word you proper uh form of the word is, but um uh so I I would you know you want GMO free, but if it's not GMO free, what you want to see is make sure those animals are getting a lot of chlorophyll, which comes when they're moved all the time.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like Cena, you pointed out now with with Google Maps, you can actually, if you Google our farm, for example, and look at the Google map on it, you can spot what we call the jet stream.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's the it's it's where we it's where we move the chickens.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a mosaic, you know, and and you can see very clearly uh where the animals have moved and they're moving on, and you've got recuperation behind.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite a it's quite an amazing thing.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so so you know it's it's it's movement, green grass, uh, feed source, though those are the main things.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I also look for so I look for that they don't feed them antibiotics, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, they're not um there's no pesticides or herbicides present in the feed or on the land.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then um I ask what they disinfect the chicken meat with and the chicken eggs, right, during the processing.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: How are they disinfecting it?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are they using chlorine bath?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, yeah, uh many even small uh outfits use some pretty toxic materials as a as an antimicrobial in the processing, both on eggs and on chickens.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so on chickens, for example, you're wanting them to use, for example, hydrogen peroxide or just uh a vinegar type acid.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh we don't use anything here, but when you get into inspection and under inspection, um there's got to be some sort of a kill step per the regulations.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that kill step is can can can be uh any any number of tox, you know, from from chlorine, uh as toxic as chlorine is all the way to something as relatively benign as hydrogen peroxide, you know, that that just uh uh you know vapors off.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which so there so you don't use anything because yours aren't sold in the store, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: So like you're talking about that inspection step, you can be exempt from it because you're not selling in the grocery store, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone went to your farm and and bought um you know a dozen eggs, those eggs are not treated with the chemical and the processing.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's that's correct.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even our eggs in the store are not treated.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, um eggs are not required to be treated with anything, but the big producers do treat them with uh chlorine baths as a as a disinfectant uh protection measure.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just you know, it's a it's a cover your tail, cover your tail kind of thing.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not required in the regulations, uh, but most most large farms uh do that just just as a protective measure, you know, so they so they um so they can't be sued.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um what about chicken then?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Chicken uh is that not actually in the regulation where it has to be you know go through the kill step?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, chicken does.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: The regulation requires a kill step.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now the question is, what will the processor and or the inspector allow as a kill step?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is where you start getting into subjective, you know.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the regulation says, you know, the kill step, here are here are options.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, there are some inspectors, for example, who don't recognize uh you know uh citric acid as a kill step.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so they'll demand chlorine.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so then that becomes this this this you know war, this battle between the processor trying to do something better and the inspector who uh wields all the power and and can you know it it's a and here you are, you know, you've got this this uh this disagreement in the processing facility.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: The inspector can say, you know, I don't like you, and shut your plant down.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: You've invested three million dollars in this plant, you've got employees standing there waiting for their paychecks, you know, this is not the time for the showdown.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so, so but but but this is exactly what happens.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so you essentially have um you have diplomatic extortion on the part of the bureaucrat who holds all the cards and the ability to say, okay, now you can now you can uh you can butcher chickens now.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I'll I'll I'll you know it's okay.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, how getting to that point is a is a real is sometimes is a real is a real issue.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, um, you know, that asking what goes on the the bird or the egg you know during the processing is a is a huge question because that's that's right before your plate.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that that's right before you right before you eat it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um see now, I want to I want to pick up, you mentioned several you know, websites, different things.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I want to pick up the smart shoppers guide from Weston A Price Foundation.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a it's a little it's an index, it's it's a nationwide directory of of farmers that are within the Weston A Price Foundation network.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um and you know we pay a nominal amount to be listed there, but they WAPF only allows people in there that they have vetted.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of by it's really a strong process.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: They they invite you to be a part of their shoppers guide.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's by invitation only, and then I pay, I don't know what, 50 bucks a year to be listed in it.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a it's kind of a shared thing.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's a that's a pretty And it's it's it's uh it's by state, by food item all over the country.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, um because it's Weston A Price Foundation, they they concentrate on livestock on on meat, poultry, dairy, uh, as opposed to produce.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, many farms that do offer meat, poultry, and dairy also either have produce or or I think this is the thing we need to say, Cena, as people are sleuthing this, realize that there is an entire subculture, an entire subfraternity of people.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and those of us in this, like if somebody called me today and say, even though we don't sell produce and ask me where would I buy produce, I can give them a couple of names of the people in our area that are absolutely the top best, uh, cleanest most you know uh produce growers.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um this this this authentic community, unfortunately, is not that big.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so most of us know each other.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh and so what what you have to do is get into the fraternity.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to get into the fraternity, um some someplace, somewhere, and then and then the this whole um you know the whole cornucopia then it doesn't just magnificently open up, but but but you you continue to follow leads and and and you have more and more leads, another lead, another lead, another lead, and pretty soon you're finding, oh, well, I've got four options here.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two options.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's where then you maybe call, you ask some questions, you send an email, you ask some questions, you go visit the farm.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a big no trespassing sign, you probably don't want to go to that farm.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I've heard it said if you go to farmer's market and you buy three times from a guy or a or a gal, uh, and and uh by the third time you buy, if they haven't invited you to their farm, uh you probably shouldn't go back to that, you know, to that vendor.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are these these little kind of subtle um uh subtle things within the you know within the spectrum.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I would like to point out here, you mentioned um you mentioned you know, chemicals, pesticides, fertilize uh uh and and water.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to add to that fertility.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: For me, a big question is what do you do about fertility?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because uh what what I want to see, I mean, I want to see a compost pile.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I want to see that there's enough recognition uh on that farm in situ that that that there's actually a carbon economy, a carbon economy being developed.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: You might see piles of chips, you might see a bunch of old leaves or hay or or a pile of uh of something, but um but you know uh compost is such a foundational element of soil building.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um are there other things that that that farmers use that are probably acceptable?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, things from you know foliar, fish emulsion things, all that, but that should not be in the regenerative space.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're all about building soil, not bringing in amendments from outside, even if it's bycatch from Japanese drift nets in the ocean.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're we're trying to uh develop an on-site carbon integrated uh situation, which is the way nature builds soil.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, so at the risk of alienating a few folks, uh a few of my friends, uh I I want to when I go on a place, I want to see what the fertility, what what's your fertility program?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: How are you building soil?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's your plan?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and what's what's the protocol for for uh for soil for soil construction?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that would be um whether they're looking for um produce or beef or chicken.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's across the board.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're wondering how are they regenerating the soil?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then so let's in the time we have remaining, let's look what questions would we ask if you're trying to find um authentic beef.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um I would want to make sure that they were like rotated on pasture, they weren't, you know, so they're not fed anything with the pasture.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's no GMOs, there's no pesticides or herbicides present in the food or on the land, no antibiotics or hormones administered.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then again at that processing step that the meat is not disinfected with um chemicals during the processing.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh I've seen.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you've got it uh pretty much.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you don't want to have uh these um pyrethroid ear tags or uh implants, uh ionophore implants.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one kind of maybe subtle thing is what are you what are you using for mineral?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um because a lot of people use blocks, um, blocks that have other things uh put in them, even ionophores, um uh uh uh like uh like Ralgro.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so there can be some steroid hormone uh ionophores in liquid blocks.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so um so we we encourage no mineral blocks to be used.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: It should simply be a um uh you know a dry uh powder form.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we use dehydrated seaweed, um we use um you know redmond salt, um, which is you know a mine salt out in in Colorado, uh, rather than refined, you know, refined white salt, iodized salt.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: The reason that minerals are important for the animals is because um, you know, historically, the bison and deer and elk, you know, the wildlife, they can they they're not bound by fences.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they could move long areas and find charcoal to lick, ashes left over from a fire, they would find uh mineral springs, mineral deposits, those kinds of things.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: But when we when we have these animals confined to our property, they can't go off and find you know this stuff that they used to find.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so um so we bring it in for us primarily in the form of dehydrated seaweed um that that they that they can have you know at will.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they use a lot, sometimes they don't.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: They will actually fluctuate their intake based on weather, quality of grass, you know, all sorts of things.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I I I think I think for for cattle, um mineral is is one of those kind of subtle nuances that's worth asking about.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do you you know, what do you what do you use for mineral?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, that's that's awesome.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had never I I had not heard that before.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know that you gave them minerals, so that's fantastic.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are vaccines an issue?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like would somebody be giving their cattle vaccines?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, most people do.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Most people we don't, but but but most people do.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of a, you know, that would be the I don't know how, you know, you make this list, right?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So so number one is is it is it grass finished, uh, no grain?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Number two is how often do you move them?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are you moving them daily, uh every other day, weekly, whatever?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: How long are they being moved to a new, what we call a new salad bar?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um you mentioned, you know, uh again, I I would say what's your fertility program?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is your fertility program, for example, bringing in uh chicken litter from a factory chicken house?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of farmers, uh even organic farmers, that's their fertility program, is bringing in chicken manure from the factory chicken houses that of course have dead chickens and bones and feathers and all that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so what's your fertility program?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, and then yeah, you're right, no, no antibiotics and things like that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the the the mineral program.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, probably at the end of the list is is vaccine.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the last things that farmers give up.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's I mean, the the veterinarian, veterinarians for sure, you know, um push vaccines pretty dramatically, and and a lot of farmers are scared to, you know, to walk away from vaccines.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we walked away from vaccines, you know, uh, I don't know what, 40 years ago.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um so, you know, the the vaccine thing is uh, you know, it's it's a tough one.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but boy, you know, if you if you find a farmer that doesn't use vaccines, you've got a jewel.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that that'll be that'll be un I can tell you that'll be uncommon.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's you.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're a diamond in the rough.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, but we we we've been at it a long time and have a lot of confidence.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so all I'm asking is uh a modicum of charity.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: If your farmer says, yeah, we use vaccines, uh, he's not a bad person.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's just a scared, lacks some confidence, maybe hasn't done this long enough to build up confidence, hasn't pulled that plug yet.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: But if he's pulled, if he's pulled these other plugs, if he's if he's moving those cows, if you can see this mosaic, well, where were the cows last week?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where were the cows the week before?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can see this this mosaic and and progression.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: The cows are on a on uh nice, you know, lush vegetation.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and they've got they've got some good um uh you know unprocessed mineral out there, you know, basic stuff.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that that's probably vaccine is is one of your lower things on the okay.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds great.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I I agree.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: What about um pastured pork?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, uh, and it sounds kind of redundant, I'm looking for rotation on the pasture, um, that there's no GMOs, pesticides, or herbicides present uh, you know, on the land or in the food.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't given any antibiotics, they're not given any hormones, and again, that the meat's not disinfected with chemicals during during the processing.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you agree?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what else would you add?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh on pigs, probably the number one thing, uh yeah, you you mentioned you know fresh fresh ground, but is it rotated?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Pigs are hard on ground.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they they dig, they you know, they're big, they're heavy, uh uh, and and they're really tough on ground.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So so the rotation becomes um becomes really, really critical.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but pigs, you can tell a lot by the smell test.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: If something's not right with pigs, it's gonna stink.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if something's not right with cows, they can stink too, and certainly chickens can stink, but nothing stinks like a pig.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if things aren't right, if things aren't right.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, so when you visit the farm, trust your eyes and your and your nose.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what and your ears, what are you hearing?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are you hearing contentment?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or are you hearing, you know, fighting, bellowing, uh, uh, you know, discontentment.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can hear that.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the you know, the one of the favorite things that I hear when people come here is I come here, I go in your animals, and they all seem happy.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's what we we want the chickens to just be clucking.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want them to be uh, you know, uh acting uh fearful or stressed.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: You can hear that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can see it, you know, are the cows just are the cows placid?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Are the pigs placid?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do they do they just come up to you inquisitively and want to you know nose your britches and and untie your shoelaces?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and and and does and and and is it is it an aesthetically aromatically pleasant place to be?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um because if if pigs are in a in a spot too long, un what unmanaged, um they will stink pretty quickly.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so so uh smell smell on pigs is a big one.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember when we had our summit last year, our health summit, and you did the farm tour, and um I have pictures actually of some of the some of our speakers um petting your pigs.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like they it was they're so they were so peaceful, you know, the pigs themselves were so peaceful and they were they were so calm and gentle that we could literally just reach over and pet them.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they were they were okay with it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: They were inquisitive about us, like it looked like they were trying to smell us, you know.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh my gosh, I want to take that home with me.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's funny.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah, so yeah.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't got had a chance to go to a you know a farm like Joel's farm, I highly suggest you go, especially if you have children, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: It helps connect them with their food supply, and they can see, especially because you know, I was born and raised in California, um, and you know, you see you see lots of um uh rows and rows of crops, right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um even on these supposed organic farms, you'll see they do a lot of monocropping, so which is rows and rows of corn or rows and rows of soy, you know, and you can see that the the soil's bare, it's you know, it's dry, it's you know, there's no cover crops, um, it's bad.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I was raised with.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was what a farm was, you know, and until really I came out here and went to your farm, and I and I thought, whoa, this is like um what you would see in a storybook, you know, about like going off on an adventure to this cool farm.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: So and my and my kids love it.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um one thing I want to mention is you talk about um you've told me this before.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to tell a story about um about if you go to the farm and you can actually see worms in the soil, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that you're looking for.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're you're drilling down pretty deep here, Cena.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, for sure.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we we if you visit a farm in the, you know, a month after frost, especially in the spring, um, you want to actually be able to see earthworm castings on on top of the soil.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh these are little mounds that you can see they, you know, um and if you if you part the grass, you know, and look down in there, uh you should be able to see things.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you should be able to see spiders, you know, a lot of spider webs.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um visit at different times of the day, you know, go early in the morning, go late in the evening.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Are there are there bats flying around at dusk?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are are there um are there indigo buntings?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um uh like you want to see diversity.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Are there are there if the reparian, if there are reparian areas, pond, creek, that sort of thing, are the are the banks uh vegetated?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh, you know, do they do they have cattails?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are there red-winged blackbirds on the on the cattails?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the the this is the kind of life.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the what I'm trying to suggest is that a a commercial farm, uh, if it's if it's managed properly, it has a lot of the nuances of a quote unquote park, you know, from from a beauty standpoint and a biodiversity standpoint.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're not we're not in a competitive situation here.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're in a complementary, a complementary situation with nature.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we we purposely fence out edges from the cows.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there are bushes and and and and and you know habitat, um you know, forestal zones, riparian zones, wild, uh, wild habitats uh you know within the greater you know commercial production areas.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and and and so you know this idea of you know Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, you know, mile after mile after mile of corn and soybean, uh monocrop with you know with with a an extremely occasional clump of trees or or something, is uh that that's not nature.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, nature's about uh um you know diversity and a lot of a lot of uh animal life.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want you to feel that when you we want you to hear buzzing and insects and grasshoppers and you know all sorts of things going on because it's that it's that uh diversity that's really a you know a big deal.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what you don't want is like one of those um big farms where they have like just cows out on, it's like there's just dirt everywhere.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're out on the dirt, you know, trying to find a little blade of grass or whatnot.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I was raised around.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just cows out there on dirt and they have this little trough that they eat from and drink from.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember when we um when we went out to your farm one time, my kids were like, Where are the pigs?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Where are the like you couldn't even see them because they're out there amongst all the trees and in the bushes and stuff.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go out and you know walk around and try to find them.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're off in nature.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, but now we're almost out of time.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I want to wrap up with what we would look for growing produce, okay, and trying to find authentic produce.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll I'll start us out.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I want I would want to know, first of all, if they're using GMO seeds, um, what's the pest control program, right?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's the weed control program?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are you so are you spraying pesticides or herbicides to control weeds or whatnot?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: What are you what are you applying to the crops?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are you do you till the soil?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how do you fertilize the soil?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Are you applying biosolids to your land, right?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is the this is actually a big deal, applying biosolids.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then like where do where would the water come from that you're irrigating your crops with?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, once the produce is harvested, are you waxing it?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as surprisingly, some local farms I have found do wax their produce.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something I want to avoid.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we can we go we go into that in our book, which is you know, grass chemicals can be in there, fungicides can be in there.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it it's up to them what they want to put in the wax.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that those are my big ones that I'm looking for in produce.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say um I I appreciated you bringing up the the tillage uh deal.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say in general, what what is the soil covered with?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you look at that, when you look at that uh produce, uh do you see a lot of soil or is the soil mulched?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um either either mulched or the plant canopy so heavy that you don't even see soil.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh either one of those is okay.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so the main thing is you don't want to see bare soil.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: On any farm visit whatsoever, whether it's livestock produce or whatever, you you want to see vegetation, not bare soil.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just foundational to all you know soil regeneration.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so yeah, I I think you're I think your list is pretty good.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then the acid test is taste it.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh uh taste it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot of difference between a you know a nutrient dense carrot and a non-nutrient dense carrot.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one tastes like cardboard and one tastes like uh, I don't know, cotton candy.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, that there's a big difference in the in the taste.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Produce is something that texture, taste, juiciness, juiciness and taste, you know, those are things that really come through in um in produce.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when we when my children and I finally decided to grow our own carrots, you know, just as a fun um little experiment they wanted to do.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: We grew carrots and then we compared them to the store-bought carrots, right?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Side-by-side taste test.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: And my kids were so hooked.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a flavor explosion in our mouth.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: The the the profile, the flavor profile was so deep.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: We had no idea that a carrot could taste that flavorful, you know?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow, this would really deter us from eating sweets, right?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Growing your own um fruits and vegetables or getting from getting them from your local farmer because they are so flavorful and made me not even want to go and get a cookie or a brownie, you know.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, this is a common battle with kids, right?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to get them off the sweets.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, there's really just maximum joy.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's it's really just nothing like it.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so now they're hooked.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So now they want to grow all kinds of stuff.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're even now they're growing cotton, right?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like we're not gonna eat the cotton, but we're you know, we're we're gonna stuff things with it.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we have our own organically raised, you know, or regeneratively raised cotton that we're gonna use instead of lying on the GMO cotton.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Elliot Elliot Coleman, uh, who's kind of the guru of gardening in in the in the US, um, he told me that he knew he'd arrived finally when he found out from his customers that in the school lunch, this, this, this, the lunch pack, you know, that they packed for their kids to go to school, that his his baby carrots traded higher, you know, kids trade food, right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they sit down and they trade food, right?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he found out that his his baby carrots had the highest trade value of anything else in the school lunches, including sweets.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: He said, That's when I knew that I had arrived in you know, in in having.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: really um you know high authentic uh produce so you know that that's that's a that's a that's that's a good standard but i yeah uh this has been this has been great to actually drill down on this and i i think i think if we if we could say one thing to people it is it is it's there it's there it it's uh it may not be on your doorstep but it is there and you can discover it just like you would discover anything else that you're interested in you know uh a spouse a a a vacation package you know just like you would discover anything else that you're interested in you can you can discover this it's here it's way more available now than it was 20 years ago and um and and I think my encouragement is just jump into it you know jump into that into that fraternity and follow your leads follow your leads and um and pretty soon you'll be amazed at what you found.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I want to add too so you have to do the the initial sleuthing like we're talking about doing and again I'll put the websites up there to help you narrow these things down but after you've done that initial sleuthing it can actually just appear on your doorstep right because a lot of these places now deliver.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know Polyface delivers you know a lot of the farms now will actually ship so um like we've ordered we've ordered some items from a farm that was over in Idaho and they ship to us you know just sampling different things.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: So so you don't have to go to the farm every time you want to pick up your food right you know we're not saying go to the farm every week to go you know pick up your produce or your meat.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're not saying that at all.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're saying that you know you you can you can actually get it um delivered to your doorstep or you can do like so we get some stuff delivered when we need it and we also um subscribe to like you have a monthly um drop off right you go you your farm drops off throughout um areas of Virginia once a month uh for most of the most of the months of the year and so we go once a month to pick up our meat and we bought a um we bought one of those standup freezers so that we can go maybe once every three months instead of having to go once a month you know we just stockpile our meat so you don't have to you know put in all this effort and time every week just to procure your groceries for that week right the initial effort is up front doing the sleuthing but we've helped you with that we're gonna give you the websites we gave you the questions to ask and now just do the work up front and then you know figure out which way you want it best um brought to you delivery CSA pickups you know you name it so I think it's it's really that easy it yeah it it really is it really is and uh and so we encourage everyone to just opt out that this is a continuation of last week's problem with this new GMO uh labeling law that is a is a complete charade if you will and um and so the the way to protect yourself is not to ask for government protection it's just to look yourself in the mirror and say I'm gonna protect me I'm gonna protect my family and just uh begin opting out of the you know of the conventional um food platforms and you'll be amazed you won't find maybe every single thing I mean we still get our bananas at the at the store um we we haven't grown bananas yet but uh but but you you can find you can find you know do the 80 20 rule you know if you get the 80 if you get the 80 right the 20 isn't as important getting the 80 right is important sounds great all right thank you joel thank you for all your insight and expertise I really appreciate it I think our listeners appreciate it and uh we look forward to seeing you all next week bye bye