Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / In and out of prison - finally believing in himself- riveting Harvey Galler

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In and out of prison - finally believing in himself- riveting Harvey Galler · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi. I'm Brent, Cassidy.
0:05
Welcome to the nightmare success in and out podcast, where we
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explore a, how to overcome your fears.
0:10
And Nightmares is set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
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Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:20
These stories can be inspiring. Sometimes sad, there's some
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humor but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something
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that will help you knock down some of the prisons you built.
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Up in your own mind. Welcome in folks.
0:35
Today I have Harvey got a letter here and Harvey is a referral
0:42
from, if anybody from those playing the board game at home
0:46
gym, Brock who was on three or four podcast to go at a great
0:50
story. And he was nice enough to give
0:55
me some people that he knew and Harvey is someone who has are we
1:01
welcomed in by the way? Yeah, thank you. so yeah, hard
1:05
when Jim was talking about Harvey got out 2019 and you
1:11
started doing some things out in the community that will talk
1:14
about but some of the things that just helping people as they
1:17
got back as you had realizing that it's really hard as a lot
1:22
of barriers and I know you're working on a docu-series thing
1:26
and workshops and all of it trying to bring awareness to
1:32
It's not easy getting out. Absolutely.
1:34
And it is definitely not easy. Getting out in a lot of people
1:37
do think that because we have all these systems set up that is
1:42
supposed to be very easy for us to get out.
1:44
Yeah, it's not. Well, I think, you know, we'll
1:46
get into this but I think the, the one of the things is there's
1:51
a lot of people that are directing these programs that
1:56
haven't been impact on themselves.
1:58
I think if there were more people that were directly
2:01
impacted. Who Were helping create and
2:06
programs and services for what they're trying to accomplish.
2:11
It could be a lot more effective and I think that's where some of
2:14
this could, I mean, that's an easy fix.
2:16
You just start bringing people in who know and they sit around
2:20
the table. They have a seat at the table
2:22
and and all of a sudden there's some things and ideas that
2:26
probably wouldn't have been thought about unless you've
2:27
actually gone through it yourself.
2:30
So Harvey. Tell us a little about yourself.
2:34
We're what was like like when you were growing up, where'd you
2:37
grow up and your parents and siblings and all that.
2:41
So I was actually born here in St.
2:44
Louis. So you are a Saint Louis guess
2:46
I'm from Saint Louis at one point in time, while I was a
2:49
toddler, we moved out two times Beach, okay?
2:51
I lived in times Beach, where he goes, who don't know, for those
2:54
listening in the Cayman Islands. Times Beach is not there
2:57
anymore. No.
2:58
You just drive by you can see all the It's and everything.
3:00
But there was some was in an oil asphalt type thing that was.
3:05
Yeah, so this is the city couldn't necessarily afford to
3:08
pave the road. So, and so the roads were
3:10
gravel. So they were pairing this
3:14
private contractor to just spray this defoliant and other stuff
3:18
to keep like the gravel and stuff down.
3:19
And he was getting this chemical from somewhere outside of Kansas
3:22
City and spraying it on the roads and It ultimately, it was
3:26
toxic, it killed a bunch of horses.
3:28
People start getting poison from it, so, We're you guys there at
3:31
the time. Yeah.
3:32
We were there at the time man. Yeah, yeah.
3:35
So I have that's why I was I thought I wasn't going to ask
3:39
you about their tail. They have kidding.
3:42
I do have some thyroid issues now.
3:44
I don't know if it's necessarily from that, but but it was it was
3:48
ultimately, like dioxin that they were spraying on the
3:51
pavement. Yeah.
3:52
So Yeah, they shut the whole place.
3:57
Don't have that had to be weird as a kid, right?
4:00
Yeah, it was. So when it because they
4:02
literally left it as a ghost town, even they not know
4:05
anybody, okay? So it didn't necessarily, they
4:08
didn't tear it down right after it flooded right after it
4:10
flooded people came back for a little while and then they were
4:12
doing soil samples and stuff. Because that's when they
4:14
realized that they had a problem because it was like a, the
4:20
water. Hey, like spread it, I guess.
4:21
And like it created some, like awareness of it.
4:24
Yeah, they tracked it back. At times Beach and I got in the
4:26
water table. Yeah.
4:28
So then that's when they started making a noise about I think was
4:31
like, 84 something like that. We moved in 81.
4:34
I remember when all of it happened I was in high school at
4:36
the time it was it was big news. Big national news.
4:39
Actually. It was where did you guys go
4:41
after that? So then we landed in this town
4:43
outside of about 10 miles. West of d.c. called Reston
4:47
Virginia. Yeah, it was cool.
4:48
It was a nice, it's really nice suburb.
4:50
It was at this time. Is it Mom Dad?
4:54
No. No.
4:54
Just So, sister when we lived in times Beach, it was just my mom,
5:00
my brother and I, okay. So it's three of you.
5:02
Yeah, there was three of us at the time, my dad had gone to
5:05
prison for some things that he had done.
5:09
It was armed robbery and some other things.
5:11
How old were you? When that happened?
5:13
I was young. I was like, maybe two or three.
5:16
So you did, you have much of a relationship with your dad since
5:20
he went away? So early, I did ultimately later
5:23
on down the road, okay? But yeah at that time it was
5:26
just my mom and my brother and I he came and went a little bit
5:30
when he got out and had to go back for whatever.
5:33
Yeah. But did you think that was I
5:36
didn't know what was going on. I Didn't Know.
5:37
I swear I was wondering because it scares me is to understand
5:40
how I just didn't understand what was going on with the funny
5:42
thing is, I this isn't funny, I mean, stranger odd.
5:45
When I moved, we moved into a new neighborhood.
5:49
My dad wasn't with us because he was in prison.
5:52
And I remember I was like 15 years old and you know people
5:57
bring stuff over like when you move in, you know, like cookies
6:00
or whatever they're thinking, you know, is my mom, a widow is
6:04
she divorced and the kids are like, you know, where's your
6:06
dad? And I always felt kind of weird
6:09
about the fact because we just decided to just say he was
6:12
working out of town which kind of was true in the, we go to
6:16
visit him on the weekend. I mean he did have a prison job
6:19
out of town but he couldn't come home but I always say always
6:23
made me feel like Kind of that weird feeling that I knew that I
6:27
wasn't. I had all this stuff going on as
6:30
a kid and nobody really knew about it.
6:33
It was like, you know, I why dad was in prison and I was a new
6:37
kid at this because we moved from Springfield St.
6:39
Louis, so, I was the new kid but I had this gigantic elephant in
6:43
the room that my dad had gone to prison and we talked about him
6:46
just being out of town. Working feel like you were
6:48
taught early on to keep secrets because of having to do that a
6:51
little feel like that was a big going to normalize their was
6:54
really One person in my high school, that knew what was going
6:57
on at the time and because his family had kind of been impacted
7:00
at the time, I felt like we could talk, but I always felt
7:05
like we ran out of town. You know, I loved being where we
7:08
were in Springfield and I had great friends.
7:11
I was comfortable there, but my dad's thought was, he wanted to
7:14
get away, you know, it's clean start, you know, clean start for
7:18
everybody. And he was in, he was sentenced
7:21
to just six months in prison, so it wasn't like it in pack.
7:24
To Darcy, you know, our family life for, you know, 10 years but
7:29
you know, there was enough time to really feel different.
7:32
There was a cultural impact there that he was feeling that.
7:35
Yeah, and I've always said when when someone goes to prison, the
7:38
family goes to prison because they have to deal with it on the
7:41
outside and everybody kind of has to deal with it on their own
7:44
terms, right? Yeah yeah.
7:46
So later on though, I do kind of remember going to see him one,
7:52
that's what I was gonna ask you if you want.
7:54
And the county jail right before we moved to Virginia because he
7:57
had just gone back to prison. When we ultimately decided to
8:02
leave this area are completely had the flood happened, he had
8:05
gone back to jail, for whatever reason, and I kind of remember
8:09
us like going to see him before we left town was your mom
8:12
supportive at that time with your dad or oh, no.
8:16
So they used to have fist fight. So they just had a balloon like
8:18
fist fights with each other and it was.
8:20
You saw all that? Yeah, I saw that kind of.
8:22
Yeah. So you saw a lot as a kid.
8:24
Yeah. Yeah, I guess.
8:30
I mean, we all see a lot of, we do lives.
8:32
Yes, you know, my parents were, they were like they like to
8:36
fight an audience, you know, like if there is like you who
8:40
who is winning the argument and you know, that was always kind
8:43
of weird because they'd have, you know, an argument then
8:45
they'd say, you know who do you want to go with it?
8:48
As traumatic as yeah. What are we doing?
8:51
But yeah, but it did. But they, they loved each other.
8:55
But man, they They were, they were passionate.
8:58
Yeah, so my dad. He definitely, I don't know
9:02
Ness, I don't remember enough at the time to say like what he was
9:07
feeling about my brother and I or whether or not he even like
9:10
gave a shit about us who perfectly honest.
9:11
Yeah but we packed up and we moved to Virginia Reston and he
9:17
ended up hitchhiking out there at one time at one point, after
9:21
you've been out there for a few months, in violated, his
9:23
probation or parole and Ended up getting a job at a restaurant
9:28
that my mom was working. I don't want to see was a
9:30
bartender. Hmm, and then she got off work
9:32
one day and never came home. Just hitchhike back to that.
9:35
Was it at the st. Louis.
9:36
And that was that was the last. I spoke to him.
9:39
Like how old would you have? Been at that time. 450 you a
9:43
really smooth jazz, really small.
9:45
I remember him doing that though like periodically when I was
9:48
growing up just like you just come in and out of your life.
9:51
Yeah, and he got together with this woman.
9:52
Mary who was ultimately end up marrying her.
9:55
She was a A little bit older than he was quite a bit older
9:58
than he was actually, but she kind of like, kind of reeled him
10:00
in a little bit, but he would just still like, say he's like
10:05
the typical. I'm going out for a turkey for
10:07
real. I went out for a pack of
10:08
cigarettes, just never come back and then he would end up in
10:12
Virginia, at on our doorstep. Like, hey guys, what's up
10:16
acting? Like nothing's wrong drunk.
10:17
As a skunk like one and to be dad and my mom would just be
10:21
like you need to go back to your wife, you could tell and one
10:24
time there was a woman in the car with them, We just got back
10:27
from like school shopping and we get out of the van.
10:30
And my dad said in the parking lot, the, the complex, where we
10:33
live. And my mom wouldn't let us get
10:35
out of the car even though I think I was like, maybe like 12
10:38
or 13. At the time.
10:39
We knew it was going on. But yeah, she was yelling at
10:42
them. What was your school like was
10:44
school life? Like it was all over the place.
10:49
The schooling. I so I went to school in
10:51
Fairfax, Virginia, in Fairfax County, Virginia.
10:54
I grew up in marginalized areas, I Up in, like, low-income and
10:57
stuff. But I was actually able to go to
10:59
a really good school. Thankfully because of the way
11:02
that the system is set up there. How they had the lines drawn in
11:05
the town that I grew up in Reston Virginia.
11:07
It was a planned community. And so, they didn't just have
11:11
like projects all over in the middle of nowhere.
11:14
They had projects. Like I literally grew up in the
11:17
middle of golf course but it was all Section. 8 housing.
11:19
That's cool. There's golf courses all around
11:20
me right. Wow, it had its own Barriers as
11:25
well. Because, you know, you had the
11:26
people that have a lot right next to the picture have
11:29
nothing. So there was a lot of like
11:32
there's a lot of conflict between that class issues
11:35
between that. But, um, yeah, my schooling.
11:42
I ended up having to go to alternative school because I
11:45
just my family life was not good at all.
11:49
It was all over the place. My mom was married to like
11:52
several different men and they were all like battling their own
11:56
like addictions of some sort or another.
12:00
And we were witness to that. And we also my brother's, I have
12:05
a sister now to she had with her second husband, who was a Carnie
12:09
in a biker, right? He was a transient and
12:13
Ultimately like, was the person that introduced my brother and I
12:16
had to drugs. And we started getting high at a
12:18
young age and that was normalized.
12:20
And it's how do you think you were when he's when that started
12:23
being introduced to you? Oh, I was like eight or nine the
12:26
first time. Wow, I was always, I was allowed
12:31
to inhale marijuana. They were like blowing it in my
12:34
mind, my brother's face, like, filling up the bong and like
12:37
here guys, like, why do this? And so I was, it was normalized.
12:41
That was normalized for me. Very, very Early.
12:43
And then my mom that married relationship fell apart and she
12:49
got together with these individuals that were like,
12:53
really supportive of the troops during Desert Storm, okay?
12:58
And a lot of them were like, Vietnam, vets and Transit
13:01
themselves and they come back to the house and some of them were
13:03
heroin addict. So, I got introduced to heroin
13:05
at a young age he'll win. And then, when heroin was, I was
13:09
sniffing it. Like when I was like 12, wow,
13:11
like the first time, I started sniffing, I didn't.
13:13
Third shooting until like later on because it was kind of I was
13:15
afraid of needles. And like, yeah, those things
13:18
were just, like, in even my friends, we were like, we'd make
13:20
fun of junkies, even though we all like, would go snort house,
13:24
could ask you, like, what was your friend group?
13:26
Like, they all came from the same neighborhood.
13:28
I call him in that area of where you were for the most part.
13:32
I did have a few friends that came from the wealthier side of
13:35
town that Just didn't give a shit about that, and they had a
13:40
lot of money to spend. So they'd come down to over to
13:42
where I lived and they spend all their money on drugs.
13:44
And we all like hang out. There's like, yeah.
13:47
Or we go over into that area and just act a fool and do some
13:51
stupid stuff, but anyways, yeah, I did have like a mix of friends
13:57
and just a different areas. But what did you feel like when
14:02
with the heroin and the different drugs?
14:04
Did that feel like you were outside of the realm or That you
14:07
were escaping or how did you feel about all that?
14:14
It was weird at the time because like, I had come through like
14:18
the Nancy Reagan, just say, no error and they weren't really
14:22
telling you what the negative consequences don't do drugs,
14:25
where he was just just say, no, just don't do it.
14:27
It was all like, yeah, absence pure absence right?
14:32
Nothing nothing else, right? So is there like bringing these
14:34
like suitcases and drugs into the school?
14:37
Cool. Yeah.
14:37
And showing my friends and I what they look like and what the
14:40
effects are, we're sitting in the back of the class, like
14:42
taking notes, like so that this we does, we know, we can go talk
14:46
to so-and-so on the street corner about when we want to ask
14:49
for this stuff. So it was more like a research
14:51
project it was and that's kind of like where I started getting
14:55
interested ultimately because I'd see my family.
14:58
They didn't necessarily get drunk and smoke pot.
15:00
No one will doing acid or heroin or anything like that.
15:04
In fact, those are the drugs that no one even like talked
15:06
about or they Down on. But ultimately the drugs I flock
15:10
to eventually because I think that people weren't talking
15:14
about them. They're the Taliban wants.
15:16
Yeah. But it's, so, when I was doing
15:19
it, it wasn't necessarily. Like, I think it was like, kind
15:22
of, like I was, I was always taught when I was younger, not
15:26
to, like just, like, take something for face value.
15:29
Someone says it's bad. Just don't like, take it just
15:32
say, it's just because they say, it's bad, it's not bad, right?
15:35
There's a, you need to figure it out for self researcher, right?
15:38
Don't don't always trust someone when they when they tell you
15:41
something so like, especially authority figures and yeah.
15:47
And so I think just part of my rebellious and just acquisitive
15:52
nature drew me to like winning to use drugs and then I found
15:56
them all timidly as of his escape, from my family life and
16:00
other things that we're going on at home, there's a sense that I
16:03
didn't want to be around and that.
16:05
So as you got through school, so 18 years old, the was where did
16:14
you where did you jump off from from 0?
16:16
So I've been in a back-to-school real quick, my school I was all
16:19
over the side been expelled suspended, I did ultimately
16:23
graduate from high school, okay? After all that Journey called
16:26
that because like it was just at the end of the day, I was like I
16:29
have to complete something in my life, right?
16:31
If I'm not going to complete anything else, I have to do this
16:34
in my life and this is the one thing that I felt like, So
16:41
really my grandparents on my mom's side of the family are
16:45
really well. I don't know, this is.
16:47
So if this if you were falling in and out of school and he were
16:50
getting expelled, are you getting that with your siblings
16:54
or your brother and your mom was it like, was that happening with
16:58
your brother? And all other was, my brother is
17:01
right behind. So it was just all happening.
17:03
Okay? He and I were right behind each
17:04
other. My sister's almost not quite 10
17:07
years, younger than me, nine and a half.
17:08
So, she's quite a bit. Yeah, she's quite a bit younger
17:10
than me. So, but I have these influences
17:12
in my life that were ultimately, like the people that I looked up
17:16
to in the people that like, I wanted to, like, look down and
17:20
say, wow, he's doing a good job. So, ultimately, like, my
17:23
grandparents are the reason why I graduate from high school
17:27
because they were the strategy. Yeah, they were.
17:30
The people that I saw had like a steady.
17:33
At that time, I saw that what they were doing was steady was
17:40
You are around in your life. Yes.
17:42
Oh my grandpa, my mom's dad, pretty which mother was my
17:47
father figure in my life. They would come and pick me up
17:50
from Virginia and we meet them in St.
17:51
Louis and I do a bunch of things in st.
17:53
Louis for a couple months during the summertime couple weeks
17:56
during the summer. And I go back to Virginia.
17:59
And then and then when I was in Virginia, though, they lived
18:03
here in St. Louis when I was in Virginia, my
18:05
mom's mom and her new husband. This Excellent Man.
18:10
Herbert fix. He was a crime and Marines, he
18:12
passed away about a year ago. Actually, a year ago around this
18:16
time he was my father figure here in Virginia at the time and
18:22
they were really both of those individuals have accomplished a
18:26
lot in life. So like looking at them, they
18:29
were my Idols. They were the people that I
18:31
looked up to and wanted to emulate, ultimately in my life,
18:34
even though I was doing these other things.
18:36
So graduate from high school was a big thing for me.
18:39
And then In college was kind of just like that, whatever I ended
18:43
up just living on the street and falling into drugs, really hard
18:47
after that and ultimately like made a bunch of bad decisions
18:51
that led me to living a life of going in and out of prison.
18:56
I honestly drug related stuff where you could just easily get
18:59
picked up on or you trying to get money for this and that you
19:02
get picked up and you get charges and and just petty stuff
19:05
for real. Like, um, Yeah bro violations.
19:11
That really could have been just like kind of like a
19:15
merry-go-round. Yeah absolutely kid and he go
19:18
out going to go out. Did you feel like that?
19:23
when you were in, And then you get out, did you think at any of
19:28
those times? Hey I'm going to make a big
19:29
change here. This is going to be this time,
19:32
it's going to be a big changes you ever have like a moment.
19:34
I'm I was in before I got out there.
19:36
You know, I don't know how many times you've been in and out
19:41
yourself, but for the most part people, when they're getting
19:44
out, they always talk about all the changes are going to make,
19:47
even prior to months, prior to leading up to, you know, they
19:50
start like everybody's New Year's Eve.
19:52
Yes. Yeah.
19:53
But once you hit those Gates reality, Hits.
19:56
Right. And you realize then that all
19:58
these plans that you made on this time table are not going to
20:01
fall into place because the world is not going to work on
20:04
that. So then like things start
20:05
changing and For some of us it's the reality of the fact that
20:13
you're on probation and parole and you have someone telling
20:16
you, controlling your life and ultimately making making these
20:20
decisions for you. Yeah, it's I had to struggle
20:24
with that. I had a couple probation
20:26
officers that I really didn't get along with and it really, it
20:30
was more or less just like a character difference that that
20:34
ultimately led to us not getting along because I wasn't doing
20:37
anything. Anything wrong three months
20:39
after I had a pre or three weeks after I got to prison, one time,
20:41
I had a job was a very, I wasn't getting paid very much, my
20:45
probation officers soon as I notified them that I was on.
20:51
I had this job selling newspapers, they told me, it
20:55
wasn't lucrative enough and I had to find another job.
20:58
So, a couple weeks later, I found another job working at a
21:02
restaurant down in South City, at South County, rich, and
21:05
Charlie's. And so I Two jobs at this point
21:09
and the one job I wasn't making enough.
21:13
The job selling newspaper. So I wanted to find something
21:16
that would be a little more stable.
21:18
So also had when we have to work at Rich and Charlie's as well, I
21:21
found a job where I was making quite a bit more money.
21:24
And on top of it I would have benefits.
21:27
Well, I took this job and now she violated me for job happen.
21:30
Oh my gosh, we'll see, that's the crazy thing.
21:34
I think that people don't know about is is that That's all put
21:39
in place to is in his told to the public that this is going to
21:43
be a big help and, you know, there's so many different times
21:47
I know when I was working with this Halfway House St, Louis
21:52
dismiss house. I mean, there were times where I
21:53
would hear stories where, you know, somebody got a job in the
21:57
person would show up and that kind of a put that boss in a
22:03
weird position. And so he just thought it was
22:05
just too much, I'll just let go of that.
22:07
Person, I can't be interrupted with this kind of stuff so there
22:11
were just things that happened. Are you had to be at this
22:13
treatment thing and so you didn't get the H.
22:15
And so they just fire you and there's so many different things
22:20
that happen and what you're saying about that rotating
22:22
basis, I think is one of the more interesting things to
22:25
because You know, two thirds. Go back and three years. 3/4 go
22:30
back and 5 and and we talked a lot about this on the podcast
22:35
but there's real reasons, why that happens.
22:37
And it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody's not trying to
22:40
get a second chance out there. Just means that.
22:42
Hey, I went try to find a place to live and they wouldn't let an
22:45
ex-felon live there and then this person wouldn't let an XML
22:48
and then you get in and then you're all the way down the
22:50
road. And then you go to try to get
22:52
interviewed and you get a, check the box off that your next fall.
22:54
So you've got that that tattoo on your head knowing that you.
23:00
So you mean you have to be your mindset has to be twice as
23:04
strong, your will has to be gridded to, no matter what I'm
23:08
going to get this. And some people just get like as
23:10
was easier going back, you know, or I'll violate this.
23:14
I go back, you know, you see that you see that in the movie,
23:16
The Shawshank? You know, these guys get out
23:17
saying, I am not comfortable, you know, Brooks hung himself
23:21
and in the movie but there's and I think that movie, The reason
23:24
why that movie so affected, there's so many Different layers
23:26
of that movie when you look at prison and real life and how
23:30
that all that movie really grasp, that feeling that Vibe,
23:34
whatever that is of what people get into these big ugly routines
23:39
and prison. And that kind of becomes the
23:42
warden of their freedom because they don't freedoms, no longer
23:46
familiar to them and they'll stay in that institutionalized
23:50
world because that becomes more comforting, which is, which is a
23:56
not think. And I, you know, with with you
23:59
Harvey going in and out of prison.
24:01
Did you have kind of a way that you handled your time in prison?
24:05
I ultimately did develop a way that and that was just
24:08
connecting from the outside completely.
24:10
Because that was you like it did?
24:11
It exists. Yes, like it didn't exist
24:13
because that was the only way that I could effectively.
24:15
That's ultimately how I did my last stent and prison was, I
24:20
communicated with a few people, but I wasn't on the phone all
24:23
the time, it wasn't an everyday thing.
24:25
I'll call maybe once twice a week and it wasn't like I had to
24:30
talk about everything that was going on out there.
24:32
You know. I would just letting everyone
24:34
know that I was okay. Yeah you know people are still
24:37
here because I really had to focus on myself and I realize
24:40
that if I was Like, worried about everything else that was
24:43
going on. Like, I had been doing all my
24:45
other bits and, like, staying on the phone and like to maintain
24:47
that my family sent me money. Meanwhile, like my family didn't
24:51
put me there, the state put me there and ultimately what I
24:56
found out is like by them sending me money, they're
24:58
helping this state, like keep me housed in this facility.
25:02
So I started feeling like weird about that as well, like having
25:05
my family like keep me in prison, I started but anyways so
25:10
I did you have like a prison job that you busied yourself where
25:14
they're did you? So I did work in the, in the
25:16
library and most of his abilities.
25:18
I landed in the Farmington and Pacific.
25:21
The last two places I was, I did work it and Moberly work in the
25:25
library. Ultimately, I was a tattoo
25:27
artist and that is like a big deal.
25:30
Imprison me. That is a hustle that like never
25:33
gets old. How did you come up with that?
25:36
I mean, how did you get? Because that I, there were two,
25:40
Or three tattoo artist Leavenworth, and they did
25:42
incredible work, you know, the whole all the time you're a
25:45
constant Target. Oh yeah.
25:48
Did you my inmates and staff as well?
25:50
So, did you know, tattooing on the, on the street, I knew how
25:54
to draw, okay? And I had a few tattoos and I
25:58
had one of these, like people that I've met in my life
26:02
somewhere along the lines, had taught me how to make like a
26:05
homemade tattoo gun and kind of like the logistics of it and my
26:09
brother and I had Old around on each other and like done some
26:12
stupid. Is it true that you can take
26:13
newspaper and the print the newspaper and be able to break
26:17
that down into a tattoo gun? I don't know about the account
26:22
off of that, I was missing from. Somebody said that one time I
26:26
said man, I don't know how in the world that would work.
26:29
Yeah, I don't know. That would take a lot of work to
26:32
seems like it would, wouldn't it?
26:33
Yeah. Because ultimately what you're
26:34
using is like suit, which is that what we Used to make the
26:40
ink. It's like after you burn
26:43
Plastics or things that put off like a lot of smoke.
26:45
It's carbon-13. It's like the, yeah, there's
26:47
nothing there. So, so you would, you get
26:50
caught? Get go to the whole year.
26:52
I got called a bunch of times. Yeah, I was in and out of whole
26:54
quite a bit. You're probably prison rich
26:56
though with a peanut a to our yes, I was.
26:58
I was definitely very prison rich.
27:00
Man in all to eat. Yeah, you Even even.
27:05
So one of my cases of a sex offense and even being a sex
27:08
offender and being a tattoo artist, I was not down at the
27:10
bottom of the food chain. When I was in prison, I'd also
27:13
been in and out and bunch of people knew me by the time, I
27:16
came in with a sex offense. So, I didn't also, I didn't have
27:19
to go through a lot of, like, the trials and tribulations that
27:22
I saw a lot of the other people going through.
27:23
Well, I mean, that's the sucked for them because I was just
27:27
like, I felt so bad for a lot of those people sometimes, and it
27:31
was just like, What do I do without like making myself a
27:34
Target as well? Well, and you explain to me a
27:37
little bit about that with your deal.
27:39
It wasn't you actively. You were aware of something
27:43
going on and he didn't report it.
27:45
Yeah. And then you were on probation
27:47
and so they violated your parole.
27:49
So yeah. You carry that tag but it's not.
27:53
And if you don't go any deeper than that that's all you see,
27:57
right? And that's a tough one because I
27:59
know that you know, that that usually is it.
28:02
Or at the bottom of the food chain and the prison world of
28:05
that. But like you said, you would
28:07
actually and and being a tattoo artist in prison, you step up
28:11
the food chain. Yeah, very easily.
28:14
You become like a desirable commodity is soon as you move
28:16
into the wing and yet. So, I didn't know how to tattoo
28:19
at all. I had a couple tattoos.
28:22
Yeah, I did in to get in prison, people see that I've got tattoos
28:28
and they see that I'm drawing because I am drawing just kind
28:30
of make a hustle to supplement instead of Is it really is kind
28:33
of demeaning to have to call home and ask a family member to
28:36
send you money and especially when you know that they have
28:40
children and they're trying to make ends meet and things.
28:43
So let that becomes like taxing as well.
28:45
So you try to find other things and the prison system.
28:47
They don't pay you very much. No one time.
28:50
I was getting $35 a month. I think that was the highest I
28:53
was making in. Missouri.
28:55
But anyways, so this guy asked me.
28:59
Can you tattoo? I didn't have any money on my
29:01
books. He I offered to like put a bunch
29:03
of money on my books and I was like to do this.
29:06
Yeah, I can do this. I lied my ass off.
29:09
I lied my way all the way through this in.
29:12
I was nervous as shit and it worked out.
29:16
It didn't look that good but it worked out okay with it.
29:19
He was okay with it. He was happy with it and that's
29:23
ultimately what Matt's all that matters has some guys?
29:25
They weren't good. I saw that the some guys would
29:28
get infections and like the their arms and swell up.
29:32
Get staff and it was, it was bad.
29:34
Yeah. You know, the guys that weren't
29:37
that good were, you know, immediately known that they
29:39
weren't good and because there was repercussions of it.
29:43
So when you Finally, because the other thing I was kind of
29:50
interested in Harvey is because you had this, this drug from
29:54
early on. Did you feel like at the as you
29:59
were going through this and going back and forth, in and out
30:01
of prison, like, I guess you would you dry out?
30:07
Have these like that first 48 hours or 72 hours to wear?
30:12
Or was it not like that at one point?
30:14
So I always clean from heroin for a While for 10 years.
30:18
Okay, it was a ten-year period between the last time.
30:22
The last few times I've used and that was because of, when I had
30:27
gotten out of prison or prison of Virginia in the early 2000s,
30:32
after my first dance, I gone out to a bar.
30:37
I ran into a friend of mine and he just woke me up right then
30:40
and there and like I was he was using yeah, gave me some heroin
30:45
in like it was just like And he was like, be careful with this
30:49
and I was like, whatever, right? I went in the bathroom.
30:51
I did some, I was cool but it still wasn't enough.
30:54
So I immediately went and to CVS and got me a rig across the
30:58
street and walk to my mom's house, which was just maybe a
31:02
couple like hell, not even a block closer than my house.
31:06
I could have gone to my house, but I went to my mom's house and
31:09
I OD'd I ended up like shooting up just a couple.
31:12
Like, I think it was like a week or so, out of prison.
31:15
Yeah. In Virginia and I have a deed.
31:18
Yeah, and the police, I woke up the ambulance was there.
31:21
You know, the look on my mom's face when I was in the hospital.
31:24
We just like, that was horrible. So I'm curious when with you
31:31
said, you went back and people knew who you were did and you
31:37
had that I don't know if you want to talk about this or not
31:40
because but on the violation of the, you know, we're talking
31:46
about You're in your girlfriend and she was having a basically a
31:52
relationship with the teenager. Yeah. 15, 16 years old.
31:55
So you find out about it, you guys, I think break up, but then
32:01
they come, and they question you about it because you didn't know
32:05
about it. I know because you didn't say
32:07
anything about it, reporter, you got wrapped up in that and a
32:10
violated you. So did those get curious.
32:13
What did those guys know? Going back in that.
32:17
That was your thing, that that's how that's what happened.
32:22
Ultimately, the like got violated went away.
32:24
And then you came back in was once, did they understand?
32:27
Not only the tattoo guy, but you said, you kind of didn't have to
32:30
deal with it. Oh, yeah.
32:31
Because it was those guys have the hardest world in the world.
32:35
It was kind of like it was kind of like, I can't believe I'm
32:38
actually blocked up for this. Like, I can't believe this is
32:41
what I'm going back to prison. And what, how much time were you
32:44
looking at from that? For the languages because I was
32:47
already, I already had a record a past.
32:51
Yeah, they were trying to throw the book at me.
32:53
I lived in a small town in Lebanon.
32:54
Missouri. And they were trying to hammer
32:56
me. They wanted to, they were trying
32:57
to give me all seven issues on this, put you away.
32:59
They did not want to negotiate with this at all.
33:02
And I sat, I ultimately said the remainder of his sentence in
33:06
prison, like, fighting this case.
33:09
And then, once I got out, then they wanted to work a plea deal
33:11
with me. Wow.
33:13
Yeah. Well, let's talk about the thing
33:15
episode. Like, we're you and Jim Brock
33:18
meet up and then there's a program.
33:21
How did you get introduced to the program with Wash U?
33:24
So I came back in on a violation for the sex offense.
33:27
I was at Farmington. I refused the program.
33:30
I would just like, I'm going to complete my sentence.
33:32
This is gonna be the best thing for me.
33:33
I talk to my family, they agreed as well, because they knew Just
33:38
my history, right? So they were like, okay, if
33:41
you're okay with this, you can do the rest of your sentence.
33:44
So, when I did that, they ultimately rolled me off of sent
33:48
me from Farmington to the Pacific and they put me in
33:53
general population. I was already in general
33:55
population but they put me on a camp where it wasn't primarily
33:57
sex offenders and stuff like that.
33:59
So I get to mecc they put me through which is Pacific.
34:03
They put me through orientation and they talked about having a
34:07
college program. They're now normally, when you
34:09
get to like are no and the orientation people aren't
34:11
listening to that and stuff like that.
34:13
It's the same crap. They give you the Prius stuff
34:15
and all that, right? And it's the same video, they
34:17
show you like in Ohio in Virginia and in Missouri.
34:21
So but this piques my interest and it was just like, hold on.
34:26
I can get like college credit while I'm in because I've been
34:29
looking for that sure. They were saying you had to pay
34:31
for it and all this other stuff. Great University.
34:33
Yeah. And it was from washing
34:34
University. So as soon as I found out about
34:37
it, When asked my caseworker about it and I don't talk to my
34:40
caseworker ever, I don't talk to the CEOs, I don't want anything
34:44
to do with them because pretty much are useless really, right.
34:47
And when you do have interactions with the
34:48
caseworkers it's normally them like trying to throw you in the
34:51
hole for a violation. It's not them trying to point
34:53
you in the direction of a program, right?
34:55
So I also knew that I was horrible in math me too.
35:02
So that's why I took political science in college.
35:06
I didn't math wasn't required. Word.
35:08
Yeah, so I wit that. That's what I was going for his
35:12
political science, but I did go and take a couple of math books
35:18
out of the library that I noticed, hadn't been checked out
35:20
at a long time and took them back to my cell and held them
35:23
there for a long time and two or three hours a night, I would sit
35:27
in these. Like, in these algebra books
35:29
pre-algebra Brooks college, algebra books in and get to
35:33
where I saw that. I needed to be in college
35:36
algebra and get myself in this mine.
35:38
That? Okay, I need to study this time.
35:39
I know you do this, and then also the people with are coming
35:43
asking for tattoo work, they realize I wasn't answering the
35:45
door during this period so that like I was also like separating
35:49
from that that as well. I had to make that separation
35:52
because that became a pain in the ass as well.
35:54
Being a college student full-time college student, who
35:57
was taking six classes at one point in time and P and trying
36:01
to support myself in prison through like tattoo and not go
36:04
to the hole for it at the same time.
36:05
That was that was a hard task. Yeah.
36:08
Yeah, but I get there, and I start befriending everybody
36:12
that's in the program as well, right?
36:14
And then there's this guy. Nathan Rogers, who I knew from
36:18
being in and out at other times as well, been other camps with
36:21
him. He and I become selyse and I'll
36:26
just kind of like get my way in there and I take the test I get
36:30
in. And yeah, I think it's
36:32
interesting. That's I think the ground
36:33
running what you're saying is also a very good tip for people.
36:38
When you're trying to get to something, humble yourself and
36:42
find out who's doing it. How are they doing it?
36:46
How can you do it? And that's what you did.
36:49
You started getting familiar and around the people who where you
36:52
wanted to be and that works for you to get closer to that
36:55
program, I did not want to be on the yard.
36:57
I did not want to be getting high, I didn't want to be doing
37:00
all these other things that kept sending me to the hole and doing
37:03
all this other shit and ultimately like leading to me
37:07
coming back to prison. isn't once I got it right because I
37:09
wasn't like I'm not going to say I didn't have skills because I
37:14
your IQ is your IQ, you can like bring it up a couple points or
37:17
whatever. So I think I've always been
37:19
fairly intelligent just being able to harness it and I could
37:22
tell that just when we were talking on the phone.
37:23
I mean you're very articulate about what you're what you're
37:26
doing. What you're about well-spoken.
37:29
So yeah doesn't it doesn't matter where you come from
37:31
sometimes sometimes just how you're wired.
37:34
Yeah yeah the program that ultimately ended up being the
37:40
best choice. Made while I was in prison.
37:42
Well, how did it work? They come to doodly, did they
37:46
come to you? And that program did wash you?
37:48
People come to you, did you go online, like, what?
37:51
No solute. Look at the professors, and the
37:54
Tas, and the tutors, and the administrators, and the advisers
37:59
all drove 45 minutes. That's incredible to Pacific.
38:04
Missouri from watching universe, that's really incredible.
38:07
Yeah, it really is. Some of them didn't even
38:09
necessarily have cars. So they were having to go
38:10
through. Ooh, like a ride sharing
38:12
program, you still doing that now to do out there and now
38:14
they're going to Vandalia as well which is even further.
38:19
That's a woman's prison as a women's prison.
38:20
Yeah. It's a women's prison.
38:22
Yes, they just admitted their first cohort this year.
38:25
I want to believe, and I might be misquoting, this, but I'm
38:29
pretty sure there's like 20 students and the program out
38:31
there right now. So did you graduate from the
38:34
program while you were in? Yeah, I ultimately, I earned an
38:37
AA in 2019 while I was inside. Yeah, wow.
38:41
Very cool. Yeah, bust my butt to get that
38:43
too. I mean, that's just really cool.
38:44
I mean, very rarely, are you able to accomplish something
38:47
like that? They don't because the program
38:48
is not there but you took and saw it when after it found out
38:53
what you need to know about it and got in it in the thing that
38:57
is People might assume because we have a college in prison
39:02
program that the prison is completely on board with this,
39:05
and we're allowed to freely, come and go.
39:07
And attend this program, like, you would normally attend a
39:10
program that you would think, would be in a, in a car, social
39:14
institution, or a prison setting or something like this.
39:16
But it was not that at all. It was an uphill battle every
39:20
day with the COS you did have cos that were bored.
39:23
Also, it was new. So it was news, not liked when
39:27
the president no. No, no definitely not like yeah
39:30
and it was also like I think at the time like afterwards I got
39:35
out and I spoke with a couple lawmakers and senators and stuff
39:39
like trying to push for the rollback of the ban on Pell
39:45
eligibility, pan eligibility for currently incarcerated people
39:50
and the talk was about like vocational and and and like
39:54
labor trades and things like that with.
39:56
This is not any of that, right? And this was coming into an
39:59
institution and taking up space where they wanted to put a
40:02
vocational trade or something like that.
40:05
And they're not teaching people to go out and be like,
40:08
productive. Did they labor force?
40:11
Their teaching people to be creative thinkers.
40:13
Exactly this different. Yes, a lot different.
40:15
I'm trying to remember though. Did they cut some of the people
40:18
that worked in the prison in on the program to that?
40:20
They could get a did? Yes.
40:22
So that was probably smart isn't they were being part of that,
40:26
taking advantage of that situation.
40:28
Ation of everybody being educated in a way in a way that
40:33
they did. But I think they fell short, and
40:36
they just were kind of, like, naive in thinking that like, all
40:41
these individuals that work at the prison because I work at a
40:44
prison have some kind of education that they will be able
40:46
to benefit of having this college education or would be
40:49
interested in even having this education, or would be willing
40:52
to even have the time to go to st.
40:54
Louis to go to classes, right? But meanwhile, most CEOs.
40:58
Pretty more marginalized, just like the people that are in the
41:00
prison's themselves and are just having to like they're having to
41:04
work day-to-day themselves at that institution to support
41:06
their families, right? So it's really not necessarily
41:09
viable for them to drive into the city, if they live out in
41:12
the country, right? 45 minutes to have access to
41:15
this. Yeah, I think they have
41:16
rethought that and now they're offering virtual classes because
41:20
now University College, at the time didn't have virtual
41:25
courses. In fact, you couldn't even like
41:26
transfer virtual courses. Has into the university, there
41:29
wouldn't be accepted but now they do have, like, almost the
41:32
whole university university college, which is part of
41:34
Washington University is all virtual.
41:36
So now they've probably thought that and made it more appealing
41:40
to the staff, but I don't know how they on that.
41:43
Sir, going back to the family stuff, your brother.
41:47
Was he in and out, just like you were or how did you?
41:50
Because it's I feel like you guys just the way you talk about
41:53
that. You were close.
41:54
We were. Did you guys remain closed
41:58
through? Through that growing up period,
42:00
to where you are today. No, we did drift apart,
42:04
ultimately We were very much the same though, but we did drift
42:10
apart and lives. We, he went to, he went to like
42:16
a diversionary program when he was younger like a boot camp.
42:19
Like, 18 months in this town, Greensboro Virginia, got out and
42:26
started doing better for himself.
42:27
He still struggled with addictions and things like that.
42:30
And in 2014, he died of a heroin overdose, but he was working for
42:35
the NRA at the time and he, I was in Indianapolis for the NRA
42:38
convention, and was he in his was something he lapsed into?
42:46
I don't think it's something he lapsed into I.
42:49
Um, he and I were having phone conversations and they weren't
42:52
good phone conversations. We were arguing, we were arguing
42:55
a lot and it was ultimately over a lie that my mom had started.
42:59
While I was on the run, she said I was using his social security
43:03
number and all this stuff and I was and you know that's like the
43:05
dumbest thing I would. On there, looking for my family
43:07
members. A question of where I am right
43:09
now, so it created a big rift between Han died because he was
43:14
in the process of like creating this family and trying to do
43:16
good for his family and I understand that that's why I
43:19
wouldn't have never done anything like that.
43:20
But he and I drifted apart because of where was that in
43:26
other lifestyle choices? I had made as well.
43:28
Like, I was open about my addictions.
43:30
I wasn't really trying to hide them, and he was very under the
43:33
cover undercover about him, but he would call me. like, it's
43:38
like shit-faced drunk and like just berating me about being and
43:43
heroin addict and he was sometimes I wish I would've
43:47
recorded those so he could hurt him later on.
43:49
But yeah, he's struggled as well.
43:54
Whatever happened to your dad. My dad is in st.
43:59
Louis somewhere, or Lebanon somewhere.
44:01
I don't really have a relationship with him.
44:02
In our, I did try to cultivate one with him.
44:05
That's why I landed in Lebanon, Missouri.
44:07
Is because I came down there to be with him and that didn't
44:11
work. It didn't work out too well at
44:13
all. He, he he wanted to be a father
44:16
even though he wasn't necessarily a father, he still
44:18
wanted to like try to. And also he did a lot of like
44:22
the blaming of the reason why I was doing things.
44:25
The way I was doing them was because of my mom and not
44:28
because of him or the choices that anybody else had ever made
44:32
in my life to like there could have made me the adult animating
44:35
stuff, right? Yeah.
44:37
So So that was hard for me to deal with and bite my tongue
44:39
without like just telling him what a shitty father, he was all
44:42
the time because that doesn't help either.
44:44
Write that just makes the situation.
44:45
You can't go back and change it. No, you can't.
44:47
So you get out and you get this. You know, I would think you were
44:52
feeling pretty good about yourself getting into this
44:54
program doing well, when you get out, I think the interesting
45:00
thing is and what, what, drew me to the gym Brock was talking
45:05
about is that you Saw a need when you got out because you'd
45:09
been in and out and knew the barriers knowing that people
45:13
needed help and you created the st.
45:17
Louis re-entry, Collective and I think what I'm understanding how
45:22
it worked was is that you it was from donations, but people would
45:27
donate to the cause and then people who needed help you were
45:31
there as an organization to be able to get them to the next
45:34
step. Yeah.
45:36
So when I got out in 2019, I was working with the Washington
45:40
University's prison, education project, helping them start a
45:43
re-entry program and from my own experiences you know, I I knew
45:50
that there was a need from these things and then also like other
45:53
people, reaching out to inmates on the inside.
45:57
Reaching out constantly, while we're in the process of building
46:00
this program saying, you know, they need housing, they need a b
46:02
c and d and I'm working at this University that already has all
46:07
this built into it, right? It has all this built into it
46:12
already, right? And I'm just like, banging my
46:15
head against the wall. Like why can't we can't?
46:17
We do this. Why can't we just allow someone
46:19
to come? Stay tuned.
46:20
I understand there's a whole bunch of bureaucracy and red
46:23
tape and policy and politics behind it.
46:25
But so I realized that I have access to a network, right of
46:32
people that can help me provide these resources for people.
46:35
So I reached out to also at the time this incident had just
46:40
happened with George Floyd and stuff that I was reaching out to
46:42
other policy members and older men in this and in the community
46:46
and talking about where I'm coming from and they're like,
46:48
hold on, you're coming from. I'm an institution that has
46:51
eight point four billion dollars in your asking us for help and
46:55
resources and money and stuff. So I was like, all right, I can
46:59
get it. I got to rethink how I'm doing
47:01
this. I got to go, if I want to do
47:02
this, effectively, I need to separate myself from this
47:05
organization, and, I need to reach out to the Allies that
47:07
I've already like, made through this organization and, and
47:11
create we ultimately created the SEL re-entry fund, which became
47:16
the scr entry Collective. Yeah, we were.
47:19
So we were We started off with small donations small five ten
47:24
dollar donations at the time we were getting, like 40% of our
47:27
donations were from monthly donations weekly donations of
47:30
five ten dollars Malton. But we did other things like
47:35
t-shirt drives mom and then we would just publicize things like
47:39
every so often. And do like, just drives to try
47:42
to raise money and we didn't really know what we were doing,
47:45
but we just had access to people that that's clearly Hearts,
47:48
which worked out really took Ian and got recognized which leads
47:53
me into the docu-series and your workshops.
47:56
And I know you spent a lot of time on these different topics
47:59
which I think is great because it's such a important.
48:04
Issue. Yes.
48:06
So what is your docu-series and and your workshops, what's
48:11
what's the motivation behind it? What does it do?
48:15
What do you want it to do? All right, so the motivation
48:18
behind it is. While I'm sitting in prison, I'm
48:21
calling home. All I can hear.
48:23
My mom talk about is 60 days in and locked up abroad and all
48:28
these other shows that demonize what is going on on the inside,
48:32
right? Right.
48:32
And then you got these other shows, They kind of want to like
48:36
steer this Narrative of negative behaviors on our behalf that
48:40
lead us back to prison and and it's and I'm just like banging
48:45
my head against the wall. First of all you prison is very
48:47
long, boring monotonous and T, it's boring as shit.
48:51
Yeah. And then there are these like,
48:52
moments of high tension that are explosive, and they just happen
48:55
out of the blue. Yep.
48:57
But it's boring shit in there. It is not in in there and you do
49:01
create these like microcosms of like Of what is going on out
49:06
here in society. It's almost translated inside
49:09
just in a different way. We have the same kind of
49:11
relationships on the inside you ultimately like societally the
49:15
same structures develop on the inside so it's not it's not too
49:19
different just more permanent it's just it's just right and
49:22
and and we're limited to our movement and then we're also
49:26
also a lot of what we're doing is like reactionary to a policy
49:31
that like keeps us like from developing these relationships.
49:34
An impactful way. But when I got out, when I was
49:39
going to University College, I took this course in there on,
49:43
like, filmmaking and stuff like this, I dropped it.
49:46
I feel bad because it was like, the really the course that I
49:49
love the most anyone and and I give much props for its favor.
49:54
Who was the, the instructor of it.
49:56
He said, he never gave out a pluses and he gave me an A-Plus
49:58
on my first project. And I was just like, and I felt
50:01
so bad because I dropped the class, right?
50:03
It was, I did a video. Oh of Jim Brock, right?
50:05
And it was video, I did Jim Brock of right after he got out
50:09
and he was doing, he was doing some his dog training and stuff
50:12
and when I put it together I realized that there's a couple
50:14
things I could do with this once.
50:16
It could I could normalize like actually like that, we are real
50:20
people when we get out and we come from many different,
50:23
socioeconomic backgrounds, different cultural experiences
50:25
and things like this and normalize the fact that we're
50:28
not violent people, you know? We're just like everyone else.
50:31
So for a second chance. Yeah, just looking for a second
50:34
chance. it's in and there are not necessary and it's not
50:37
always necessarily Personal barriers that send us back.
50:43
There are systemic barriers as well, that sent us back and I
50:46
mention and I realized that through talking with other
50:49
people as well and I realized I could this could be a powerful
50:52
tool. So an opportunity came open with
50:56
the divided City initiative and the Andrew Andrew W, Mellon
51:00
Foundation to finance. Do a community Grant in the
51:04
local area and I applied for it in.
51:08
I got it. And it was yeah, it's fantastic.
51:10
Tastic. So ultimately my goal is to I
51:14
want to Let me backtrack a little bit here because there
51:18
was something else influence me that I think was important in
51:20
this as well. Like, I was attending these
51:23
webinars on Grassroots organizations and how they got
51:26
started and where they got started.
51:28
And this was on Street medicine in San Francisco city and it's
51:32
his organization that goes down into like the large homeless
51:36
populations in comes down there and does like triage medicine
51:41
medicine, and surgical services and stuff like that instead of
51:44
having a homeless person. That really is not mobile at all
51:48
and very low functioning have them come to a hospital and stay
51:51
in a hospital where they're probably not going to go there,
51:54
not going to do any of that stuff coming to them and meeting
51:56
them with their needs and where their needs are to get medical
51:59
services to them. They were talking about how they
52:02
did that and they went in and they were talking to the
52:05
individuals before they provided any care to them before, they
52:09
provided any services, and where they are, right?
52:11
They spent a year just going down and meeting the people
52:13
where they were well, With the collective.
52:17
We were also in the point at the process of like trying to figure
52:20
out how can we be more impactful?
52:22
What is it direction? We're trying to figure out where
52:24
we were going at the time and so we are trying to we were just
52:30
doing a bunch of stuff thinking that this is the right thing to
52:32
do because no one else is doing this yet and it might be the
52:36
best thing to do. So I also realized what I could
52:40
do is through interviewing people and a different and a
52:44
diverse group of people. I might be able to start
52:47
building out re-entry, services or curriculum for entry
52:50
services. That might be holistic and more
52:53
impactful. As opposed to just saying, okay,
52:56
what we need to do when we get out is get a job, get a car, get
52:59
housing, get these things that are very capitalistic that
53:02
automatically automatically set us up for failure when we're
53:04
going to get out. Because there's like, a thousand
53:07
collateral consequence laws that keep us from achieving these
53:09
things, right? So, in in all the re-entry
53:13
Services, now that are that are Built our kind of impregnated
53:17
with this mindset, that this is what success looks like, and
53:20
that's not what success looks like for everyone, right?
53:22
So that's another part of this documentary series that I'm
53:27
trying to do and we've already been doing a couple workshops
53:30
actually. We've done one so far and I've
53:32
done it over again in a couple different places, it's on trauma
53:36
and how trauma the trauma, how The trauma we receive while were
53:40
incarcerated. Right?
53:42
How it affects us? How it affects us when we were
53:44
released and what we could do about it and like and not just
53:48
like deep subjects. Yeah.
53:49
And and so far it's got really good reception.
53:53
You know, it's opened up a lot of years people.
53:55
It's a real issue that needs to be pulled back and looked at.
53:59
I like that Harvey. I got to tell you, man, you're
54:02
such an interesting guy and I think what you're doing to have
54:07
such it could have such feeling Sometimes I think what you're
54:11
doing is is it has such a big impact, you know, stay with it,
54:17
man because you have you had this background unique
54:21
background that if you use that experience and use it to where
54:25
your passion is, and I can see it when you talk about this with
54:28
the document, the docu-series and and your workshops and and
54:33
bringing it Forward. I can see all this coming to
54:36
fruition just because I think you know you have your Passion
54:39
behind and I just good for you question though.
54:44
Going through all you've gone through quite a journey.
54:49
What would you say to the listeners out?
54:50
There is your biggest. Takeaway how, how you survive
54:54
this? I just persevered I just had to
54:58
keep going. I just had to like when I woke
55:00
up even still today. When I, when I wake up in the
55:02
morning I guess I just have to tell myself.
55:04
I can't quit. Can't quit, right?
55:06
I just you just can't quit because I'm stubborn.
55:10
I'm starting to shit in. This is like another one of
55:12
these things in my family of instilled in me and so like You
55:18
might look at some of my life and say that I've quit on things
55:21
but ultimately I haven't because that is what has led me to where
55:25
I am today and the choices are making today.
55:28
And the way that I interact with people in the fact that I have
55:30
like a lot of empathy for, in compassion, for a lot of people
55:34
that people don't have empathy or Compassion or for because
55:37
you've been around them. Yeah, so it's just I just can't
55:41
give up on myself, right? And if I do give up on myself,
55:44
then I had this mentality that they've won, they beat me then.
55:48
They were corrected. Then I did belong in that
55:50
institution and I did belong in that isolation cell where I was
55:53
right? That's what that's where I
55:54
belong, right? So don't quit on yourself,
55:56
right? No, lovely, do not quit on
55:58
yourself, I love it. It's good stuff.
56:01
Good stuff. Harvey for anybody out there,
56:05
that's looking for a book to read.
56:07
I wrote one. It's called nightmare success
56:09
and get it on Amazon Barnes & Noble.
56:13
If you want to go to the show, the if you go to Apple, there's
56:17
like three little Bars in the corner there.
56:19
If you hit that bar, it drops down.
56:21
You can see you can follow show and then that will alert you
56:24
when the show comes out every week.
56:26
The same thing with Spotify. There's a little bell and it'll
56:29
notify you when a when a you can follow it and I'll notify you.
56:33
When the next episode comes out, leave me a review on Apple.
56:40
On Spotify, love that. If you want to leave me a
56:43
message on brink a si.com and anything else that's going on in
56:46
Brent kasa.com, check Get out. I like that.
56:50
As I used to say, back when I was writing my emails,
56:55
communicating with people back to family and friends, stay
56:59
strong. I'll do the same.
57:02
Are, we gotta think you today? Appreciate it.
57:04
And thank you for having me. Now, I measure success at an
57:07
out. Thanks for being here today.
56:48
Get out. I like that.
56:50
As I used to say, back when I was writing my emails,
56:55
communicating with people back to family and friends, stay
56:59
strong. I'll do the same.
57:02
Are, we gotta think you today? Appreciate it.
57:04
And thank you for having me. Now, I measure success at an
57:07
out. Thanks for being here today.