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E13: You Don't Have to Achieve to be Loved with Becca Pearce · Executive Alliance Podcast

• Rebecca Snyder: Welcome everyone. I am delighted to have Becca Pierce here with me today to talk about her leadership journey and some of the things that she's been doing. Becca is such a unique combination of executive leadership, she's done public sector transformation, she's worked in healthcare, and she's reinvented herself. on a large scale. So I'm really excited to talk to her about her background in healthcare, her new work as an author, her continuing work as an executive coach. So welcome to the program, Becca. www.morebeccapearce.com: Thank you for so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Rebecca Snyder: Likewise. And you know, it's it's so nice because you have been my coach in the past. And so it's especially lovely to talk to you. and most recently you've written a book, You Don't Have to Achieve to Be Loved, which I think is a really that's a kind of a hard-hitting title, especially when you're dealing with people that are so achievement oriented. So tell us a little bit about that book. and why you wrote it. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah. So it's interesting because when I mention the name of the book to people and it if it's in a room, the room goes silent. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: Because it's something that everybody has to think about. Like, do I believe that to be true? And for a lot of overachievers, we do believe that, right? That that achievement equates to love. And I think that it's important for people to recognize I you know, I spoke at a in a book club recently and I realized that there was a disconnect with one of the people that she believed that I was anti-achievement. I am not anti-achievement. I am Rebecca Snyder: I www.morebeccapearce.com: anti-believing that that achievement equates to your worth. Right? So So the the reason that I wrote the book is because that was my core belief, that for forty-three years I believed that I had to go and go and go and go and go. And that I needed to achieve the next title or the next, you know, salary number or any of those things to feel like I belonged and I was worth something. And when I had a brain tumor, so just a quick backstory is you know, especially for those of you who are in the state of Maryland, in two thousand eleven I was appointed by Governor O'Malley to implement Obamacare in the United in in Maryland, and for anybody who was paying attention that did not turn on the way it was supposed to, and I lost my job. On the news at 5, 6, and 11, above the fold with a picture, you name it, fortunately landed on my feet, which often doesn't happen for women in executive positions who lose their jobs. So I was very fortunate Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. www.morebeccapearce.com: to land on my feet, only to be diagnosed with a brain tumor 14 months later. And that the the combination of those two was such a wake up call for me to realize that I had been on the wrong path and I needed to get off that path and find the world that made me happy. And not the one that I thought that I was slotted into because this is just the path I've been on my whole life. And so Rebecca Snyder: Right. www.morebeccapearce.com: the book is about that. The book gives you the space to see for yourself if you are on that right path, and if you're not, it gives you tools to change that path for you. Rebecca Snyder: So how do you feel like you got on that that path of and and I think there's a lot of different angles into that idea of you have to be achieving to be worth something? I think sometimes this press for productivity or, you know, being highly scheduled or there's there's a whole deck of cards I bet we could pull to talk about that topic. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: But for you, how do you feel like you fell into that that kind of thinking? www.morebeccapearce.com: For me personally, it was my upbringing. I was you know, I'm the I'm the fourth child. I have three older brothers. to to get noticed, I felt like I needed to get straight A's and, you know, just more and more and more, right? To to just be noticed in this scenario. And in the book I even write about the fact that my mother never told me she was proud of me. And so for all of those years I kept thinking, well, if I I'm a CEO at the time of 39, how can she not be proud of that? She's got to say she's proud of me then. And she still didn't say she was proud of me, right? So I kept just trying for more, just proof that that I could be loved from my mother. Right? Now, incidentally, since then, since I wrote the book, I've had a conversation with her. I do and in the book I go through this and I say, I know that she loves me, I don't need that. But at the time that was very very much what drove me and it helped because I was smart. We were we were rewarded for being smart. And so it just Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: kind of fell into this, you know, continued moving forward, this continued achievement path for me. Rebecca Snyder: So I there's two things that I wanted to unpack there. One is just like I was angry on your behalf. to be like, why why aren't you furious that this approval is being withheld? So I wanna understand that and then turn it around because you have a daughter. And www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: you know, how do you as a as a person who likes to achieve things that might not be your identity, but how do you kind of both uphold the we want you to be the best that you can be with you don't have I'm not withholding anything or you don't have to achieve to be loved. So tell me about the anger first though, 'cause www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Yeah, so I totally appreciate you bringing that up and So I think that I was angry for a very long time. And that also sparked the achievement. Well, I'll show you now, right? And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: and it really sparked that for a long time. I had a conversation when I wrote the book. I went over and I read the first chapter to my mother and I said, I think you need to hear this from me. It it it is it is my truth. I think you need to hear this. And she said, You know what? It would never occur to me to say I'm proud of you, even to this day. And she's eighty three now. And I said, I said, Rebecca Snyder: how interesting. www.morebeccapearce.com: Why? She says, because I think the word is it's not punitive, pejorative. I think that if you sell somebody Rebecca Snyder: No. www.morebeccapearce.com: that you're proud of them, it assumes that they couldn't do it in the first place. Rebecca Snyder: how interesting. www.morebeccapearce.com: And so that was so enlightening for me to just kind of hear now. The good news is I already gotten to the point where I had Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. www.morebeccapearce.com: I right, I had forgiven her and recognized that she that wasn't that something that she she received for herself, so she didn't know how to give it because she never received it. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: so that anger had dissipated really in this transformation, this transformation that you say when I rebuilt my life, when I dropped all of the identity f around that achievement, and I became a person who now recognizes that emotions are a part of life and it's okay to be. who I am and and all of these things that I went through the through this change journey allowed me to let go of all of that anger of how come she never said this. I now recognize that everybody comes from a different place and it wasn't it wasn't meant to be harmful from her. Right. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: And I think that's all that's the thing, right? Unfortunately as a woman, everybody ends up in therapy at some point because of their mother. Right. And so Exactly. Rebecca Snyder: Well and honestly, we don't know what we're doing. Like I'm a mom. I have literally no clue. You we just kind of shuffle along and do the best that we can. And it's www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: such a high bar because that, you know, you don't want to necessarily be like generational traumas rolling downhill, but everyone comes to that role which is so fraught, not knowing enough and not recognizing how they're parenting them s themselves like their the child that they were as you go through it. So how are you go www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Yes, yes. And I think in in that transition, right, to to my daughter, how do I focus on that now? you know, Carol Dweck writes around about my god I'm forgetting my words today, but she writes about the the need for children in of of a certain generation, right, to be told that they were smart, to reward for being smart. I don't reward my daughter for being smart. I say, my gosh, you must have tried so hard, right? I'm proud of you for trying so hard. I'm I'm proud of you for for being nice. I'm proud of you for all of these things that have nothing to do with that fixed mindset. That's what it is, the Carol Dweck fix fixed mindset, for not being rewarded for things that that are in our brain but rewarded for the personality and who we are as a human. Rebecca Snyder: So actually it strikes me like when you're when you're having a difficult conversation, you talk about when one has a difficult conversation, you talk about the behaviors and the things that are controllable, like it's not you are blah blah blah blah blah, but www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: your actions or your behavior. And so like that distancing to kind of separate the person from the behavior, is that kind of www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: what you're getting at there? www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah, very much so. Just like you know, when you have some sort of disease, you are not the disease, right? Rebecca Snyder: Right. www.morebeccapearce.com: You aren't you are you are the sum of the the work that you put into it and you are human outside of whatever that thing is, whether you're smart or that type of thing. Rebecca Snyder: Well and I mean you have a pretty heavy duty label on there because you are a brain tumor survivor. That www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: could have so as you kind of think through identity and you have all these different aspects of your of your experience, how do you how do you kind of knit those together into your new definitions of success? www.morebeccapearce.com: So my new definition of success, quite frankly, is to make a kick-ass living doing the thing that I love, where I'm living within my values. And that means that I my number one core value is family. No matter Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: what, my family will always win. I will cancel on a client. I will do whatever I need to do to always put my family first. and so I think that that is really it's the recognition when I the way that I put it together is that the brain tumor allowed me to make that. recognition and you know it it it seems cliche right but but people who have some life-altering experience are the ones and there's a reason are the ones that say that's not what life is about Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. They're the ones who say, this is what life is about and all of a sudden you go, can we just walk through the grass barefoot and sing kumbaya? Well, there's some balance in there between a hundred percent achievement and walking through the grass barefoot, right? And so I think that's the balance that I that I weave together now in my definition of success. Rebecca Snyder: So you talk a lot about values in in your work and your practice and it's something that we do at Executive Alliance in our mentoring programs. So I feel like I can ask you your top five values because you should be able to I w imagine you can spit those out pretty quickly. Okay. Tell us. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes, yes. So In fact I have them written b behind me, on my board and so I Rebecca Snyder: I have mine on my mug, yes. www.morebeccapearce.com: And so you know, is family is absolutely number one. Balance, which is sort of an interesting one, 'cause I actually don't a hundred percent believe in the term balance, but there is, when people say work-life balance, to me it's more integration, but it is that balance of recognizing that there are some times that work will win. And that's okay, as long as it's balanced also equally with the times that life wins. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: it's hearing others because I listen very intently and and want to give space for people to hear others. And my last my last major core one is kind directness. Rebecca Snyder: Mm, kind directness. I like that as a I I think sometimes it's helpful to have a centering phrase. Sometimes people do that through the you know, for a theme for the year. But kind directness. I wanna hear more about that because I I think I know what it means, but tell me. www.morebeccapearce.com: As a coach, there are often times that it is my job to tell somebody something that nobody else will ever tell them. And as a deep listener, I also often hear things that people aren't saying just as much as they are saying. And so when I bring that to somebody in my coaching, I often say, I'm going to tell you something that nobody else is going to tell you, but I'm going to hold your hand doing it. Rebecca Snyder: Hm. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right, like like I'm gonna give you this soft space to hear this in a new way than in a way that you've never been able to hear it before because I am kindly direct. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. like that. And I feel like when you went through your values, I think doing that the values exercise, you know, and there's a lot of different ways to do it, but really digging deep and deciding what words to use forces you to get that nuance out there. And so like I remember actually when we did this exercise, one of my values is usefulness. And I thought for a second like, productivity could be it. And then I realized how triggering a word that was. And so I was like okay what What is and sort of like with your balance, you know, like sometimes you need a little explanation and and there's a lot of nuance in words. And so I like that precision language, I think is just something that if you give yourself some space and time to go through it, you can kind of discern a little bit more deeply. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about your word choice in your coaching and sort of how you're approaching success. because I'm sure it looks very different than success at at other points in your life. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah, I mean the if from a c true coaching perspective and a business perspective, I another thing that I have in front of me, I'm very visual in terms of things around me and right in front of me, I have impact equals worth. Like the impact that I make with people is how I measure my worth. It's not by my money, it's not by my title, it's not by you know, by my income. It's the impact that I make on you personally when we coach together is how Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: I now measure my success in my business. Rebecca Snyder: Mm, I love that. And it's clear and it's kind and direct. It's clear and direct www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: and simple. You can write it down so you can remember it. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: so I wanted to just look at that juxtaposition when you were at the health benefit exchange and right before you you were diagnosed with the tumor. when you look at your life today, what is different about how you understand leadership than when you were in that space or maybe sort of flying high before the health benefit exchange. www.morebeccapearce.com: That's such an interesting question. Thank you. So first and foremost, I I I my joke is that I'm a bad after school special. So, you know, when Rebecca Snyder: Ha ha ha. www.morebeccapearce.com: when I was at the exchange, it was, you know, drop your emotions at the door. We got stuff to do. I don't want to hear it. Leave it at the door. Like just we're not even gonna discuss it, right? There is no emotion here. We're just gonna we gotta get stuff done. And Rebecca Snyder: Which is so not you now. That is www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: nuts. www.morebeccapearce.com: Exactly. And I think about when when people ask me, well, how did you lead, it's it's almost tough for me to say, but I think that I learned how to lead like a man. When I remember Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: when I very first took, and I know Myers Briggs isn't supposed to change all that much, but when I first took took Myers Briggs, I was at an F on the feeler. And when, you know, when I the longer I stayed in my corporate role, the less I relied on feelings and the more I relied on data to make decisions. And so Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: I think that the shift is this recognitions that emotions actually drive most of our decisions and then we find data to support it. And so it's helping people recognize where those feelings fit in your life and fit in all of your decision making, and recognizing that oftentimes in the boardroom, anger is the only emotion that's allowed to be seen. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: But underneath anger is hurt and pain, and there's a lot of stuff underneath there that if you give yourself the space in that, and that's what the coaching in my world allows, is that space for somebody to unpack that and say, okay, underneath all that anger, what's really going on? Well, I'm embarrassed, or I feel like I'm being my toes are being stepped on, or I feel like I'm disrespected. Whatever those things are underneath, that's what you can then bring into your leadership in a different way. Rebecca Snyder: Mhm. And so I think that's I wan why do you think anger is the biggest emotion in the in the boardroom? www.morebeccapearce.com: I think Because I think that men told us what we were allowed to do in a boardroom. If you think about what a boardroom looks like, it is mostly male and men allow anger. Rebecca Snyder: So you sit on two boards, I believe, right now. How are www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: you changing that from the inside? Or are you? Are you I mean, because when we look at women or or people in in disadvantaged communities sitting in spaces, there's the power of three. And so it's okay if, you know, you don't feel like you're changing the world from the inside. I don't want to lay www.morebeccapearce.com: No, I mean Rebecca Snyder: that on you. But how do those spaces feel to you now with the perspective that you have about anger and fear and embarrassment in the boardroom? www.morebeccapearce.com: And I think as a board member, I think what I do is often ask questions about what's going on with the staff and how how people are feeling, right? And and everybody on that board knows that I'm a coach and I think that everybody brings that personal bent with them to the board. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: and so I'm consistently asking questions like that to help people recognize that it doesn't always have to be anger in a boardroom. The other thing that I would say too is that when I when I kind of refer to that boardroom, it's in that corporate environment, maybe it's the executive room, right? Where the Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: executives are the one having that conversation internally and you've got the CEO with the CFO and the COO and all of those people who are fighting for their own little domain. And that's where Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: anger shows up differently than a boardroom where you've got presentations and things like that. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Well it feels also there's like a little dash of jockeying for power in there and you're angry www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: because someone has something that you want. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: And so I wanted to loop that back to your core value of balance and how you and and how you think in terms of leadership you can balance that, you know, desire for impact or power. www.morebeccapearce.com: Listen. Rebecca Snyder: with data, with feelings and you know, it's not like it's always in balance all the time, but as a leader, what are the www.morebeccapearce.com: I think. Rebecca Snyder: strategies that you think, especially maybe a woman leader, to make that balance or help foster it? www.morebeccapearce.com: That's the most important thing that I think is really valuable for people to hear, especially once you get to that top C-suite position, is that the team you're on, that C-suite team, is more important than the team that you lead. And so I think it's very interesting for a lot of people, if you think about how people get promoted in America, right? You get promoted for what you did. You got promoted because you were really good at a spreadsheet and your finance, blah, blah, blah, was really good. And all of those things. But by the time you get to some executive level, director and above, you better believe that people trust that you were good at all of those things, but your job now is leadership. Your job now is having a conversation with your people and with the people in the hallway. Your job now is all people based. And so recognizing that that shift, that is that shift that is most difficult and is that sh single shift that's going to allow you to completely propel yourself into the corporate environment. And it is that balance, right? It is the okay I used to know this and I trust that and I need to have enough knowledge to know that my team's doing what they're doing, but I'm now shifting that balance to my major focus is people. Rebecca Snyder: Hm. All right. So I wanna hear I wanna talk about that failure because when you were CEO of the Health Benefit Exchange, something didn't click right either, you know, so www.morebeccapearce.com: Yep. So Rebecca Snyder: what what was it? I mean, you just explained great leadership in the C suite www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: and some of that didn't happen. So tell us about that. www.morebeccapearce.com: Some of that absolutely did not happen. In fact, if you talk to anybody who worked for me, they would absolutely tell you that it did not happen. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: so when that failed, now the good news is you know, there are a lot of things that did go well. We built that organization to a hundred people. we created an environment where three state agencies actually got along where they historically had not gotten along. Rebecca Snyder: It's huge. www.morebeccapearce.com: I mean, there were a lot of things that went well. What didn't work there is from an IT perspective, we did not have the insights that we needed, and that team did not work well together, right? There were like eight I'm not I'm exaggerating, but like there were like probably four or five different players inside that I IT world and they didn't get along. And what did I so there were several things that I could have done differently. The number one thing that I should have done differently was said no more often. Because we Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: were the state of Maryland, because we were gonna do it bigger and better than everybody else. Because every single Rebecca Snyder: Those flukes are so high. www.morebeccapearce.com: right, every single subsector, you know, wanted some piece of this. And I said no to none of it. Because I didn't feel like I could. And so here we were trying to create this behemoth of something when really what we should have been doing was building the, you know, minimum viable product. And so Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Now do you th I wanna stop there for a second because you had always been so high stakes. How much of that sort of failure to say no it was your conditioning of like I will show them I'm gonna do this no matter what and how much of it was, you know, there's there's social conditioning for women that, you know, you want to you want to say yes. And so d was there a what do you think about that? www.morebeccapearce.com: I think there was a little bit of that. there was a little bit of each of those. There was certainly the well, I'm gonna show them because I remember during my interview, I re even said to them, I said, you know, you've got a lot of policy people here, but if you want somebody who can actually make this happen, you're gonna need somebody with the experience that I have. And so Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: I very much was riding in that, right? I have done major implementations at, you know, the healthcare companies have been and I can actually make this happen. So there was very much of an ego there from my perspective to say, yes, we can do this. At the same time, I didn't feel so some of it was personal in this. I felt like we couldn't say no, but I was actually being told also that we couldn't say no. It Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: was very much you need to make this work for everybody. And everybody who came to the table who needed something, we had to acquiesce in some way to give them a piece of the legislation. Rebecca Snyder: That's such a catch twenty-two. And that happens so often in those sort of implementation of big public policy. And Maryland loves to stretch. now the Health Benefit Exchange is doing just fine now and it's very very www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes, yes. Rebecca Snyder: helpful. so but as you were like navigating through that, so it was sort of all these demands that you couldn't really refuse. So it's almost like you were being set sail on a river that was always going to end in a waterfall. do you think there would have been any way to divert and and get away from the waterfall or sometimes you're just you didn't realize it was happening? www.morebeccapearce.com: No, I think I think that by the time we realize because there were conversations internally about what do we do and there were conversations about what do we jettison, right? How do we make this? How do we cut everything out this and make this a minimum viable product? Like what do we do here? I think by the time that we realized what was really going on internally within the IT systems and with the with all the different major players, it was too late because of the procurement process to actually bring somebody else in. And so we were, we had to keep going down the path that we were on without with the that immovable start date. Rebecca Snyder: So how did you not throw up every single day knowing that this was going to be a total cluster and still stay peppy and there for your team? Like I don't understand how you could get up and do it every day. www.morebeccapearce.com: So there was there's always hope. that it was gonna work, right? There was there was always hope. I I did have a project manager that worked with me and he said, listen, we will make this work in some way. And we also did a lot of disaster planning, right? Like if this doesn't work, then we're gonna do this, this, and this. And if we're not the you know, we're gonna we had so many other plans in place to move forward if it didn't work. So that hope kept me going. I will tell you this, that you know, I would put my daughter and take her to school at the early as possible I could take her to school, you know, and I would drop her off and then I would and we live in Towson and I would drive down eighty three and I would cry and cry and cry. I call my husband for fifteen to twenty minutes on the way to work and I would just be like, my gosh, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm so stressed out blah, blah, blah and then I would get into the o the parking garage of the office and I would wipe my face and I would reapply my map makeup and I would go back in and I would act like nothing was wrong. Rebecca Snyder: Wow. www.morebeccapearce.com: Because as the leader of an organization it is so lonely. Because the one time that I actually spoke to somebody and said, This may not work, tears sprung to her eyes. And as I go Rebecca Snyder: no. Well everything with writing on it. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. And I was like, Okay, back up. We'll figure out a way to make it work. You know what I mean? So there were so many people who needed to hear it's gonna be fine that the space for me to manage that was in the car on riding down eighty three to my poor husband who got to listen to me every morning and then to put on this face and then figure out how to make it work. So my entire date was just, Okay, well if this doesn't work we're gonna do this and we're gonna if this doesn't work, we're gonna do this. It was this constant process of trying to figure out what could work. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So in in when you have a really public situation like that, and and I don't want to s make it seem like there was nothing good that came out of that. I mean, like there was a lot that, you know, yes, it crashed and yes, that was horrific. But there was there was some underlying structures in place. Like, how do you How do you work through such a public failure when maybe around the edges, perhaps I would feel like I was kind of set up for this, like there was going to be no way to win? How do you stay gracious and how do you not just turn away all the time and say, I am not gonna ever think about that again? I'm gonna box that off and put it away because that was a horrible experience. www.morebeccapearce.com: Well, so there was a time period where I wasn't gracious gracious, where I couldn't turn it off, where I couldn't it w so so that's all to say. I I would say the quick answer to that is time. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. The immediate answer is, I was angry, I was hurt, I was embarrassed, I was, you know, ashamed. I there were so many emotions that went along with that. I believed, like I was afraid to walk out of my house because I was just sure that every single person knew exactly what I had done wrong. Right. And I was I not to get into all the details, I was really, really angry. And so, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: But more than that, I would think I was ashamed. So those emotions kind of tied very closely for several now the inter for several months. and it wasn't until a friend of mine came over and said, You know, what are you doing? I got a job for you. And I was like, and I Rebecca Snyder: it's nobody. Okay. www.morebeccapearce.com: started to come out of it and say, a even people in health and in the health insurance world and the health world, not everybody knew what was going on. I thought Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. www.morebeccapearce.com: it was I thought every single person was looking at me like with pity or like, I can't believe she failed, you know, but really? It Nobody cares as much as you think that they do. Right? If anybody hears anything, if anybody's hearing right now, if you're in the middle of some sort of failure right now, nobody cares as much as you think they do. And so right? Yes, exactly. Rebecca Snyder: Which is both reassuring and lowering in different in different ways. www.morebeccapearce.com: And I think that For me, in fact, I even wrote a blog on how to recover from an ego blow because one of the things that really happened for me was this recognition that like I needed to listen to other people and what they were saying, and other people were saying, you were the fall guy, I'm so sorry that happened. You know, other people were offering me jobs. My daughter was telling me that she loved me, jumping up and I and down on a couch saying, my god, I'm so ex excited to have you home again. You know, like other people were saying to me that this This was not the end. It was my internal voice that still hold the held the anger and all of those things that until I recognized and began to listen to what other people were saying, that I could let those things go. Rebecca Snyder: So what would you tell what would current Becca tell Health Benefit Exchange Becca going through that? Like what are your words of wisdom? www.morebeccapearce.com: I think I would say first and foremost, like grieve. Have your grieving moment that you need. Like it's okay to sit in a dark room for a little bit. It's okay to have Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: your moment. Like grieve and do what you need to, but then move on. Like I understand because it was so much of my identity that I never want to downplay that for people to to to recognize that I am not you know, I truly believe in optimism, but you have to have the space to feel the feelings that you're going to feel because if you don't feel them, then you Can't move on from them. So I would say a yes and go through Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: this and don't allow the the you know the shame and the embarrassment to be the major emotions. Feel the grief, feel the pain, feel all those things, but don't allow the shame to be number one. Rebecca Snyder: And it also felt like in that makes a lot of sense and and also that benefit of time, like time marches on if and you don't want to be in that space forever. So you had that wonderful circumstance of a friend saying, Hey, I have a job for you. www.morebeccapearce.com: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: But do you think that how do you think you would have navigated out of that if somebody had not not everybody has someone tapping on their shoulder being like, Let me www.morebeccapearce.com: A friend, yes. Right. Rebecca Snyder: employ you again? www.morebeccapearce.com: Well, and interestingly, I d I aside from that job offer, I actually had three job offers within three weeks outside of that. one was in Rebecca Snyder: wow. Look at you. www.morebeccapearce.com: but one was in DC, one was in California, and one was in New Mexico, and I wasn't gonna Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: take any of those. but Ask me that question again, I'm sorry. Rebecca Snyder: Like how would you have navigated through if someone hadn't offered you a job? www.morebeccapearce.com: I you know, it's interesting. I'm I'm I I'm not totally sure. I think that it probably would've I think I think my husband might have given me another couple of weeks to just kind of be and then he probably would have been like snap out of it. Like I think I have the support of people around me to say, Yes and okay, you had your moment. Yeah, exactly. Rebecca Snyder: A little kind directness. Okay. So, I also wanted to well, actually I wanted to ask about sort of y your change in identity, at that point, because that was like the first sort of big crack, I guess, in how you would see yourself. But were y did you feel like you were still kind of the same approach? Like did you recognize and granted all these things are happening at the same at the same time, but did you recognize like, this is where I would have led differently? or were you like, okay, that was just a bad experience, I'm taking my framework and moving on? www.morebeccapearce.com: There was a little bit of both of that. So it's sorta interesting because out of bigger level and I'll go back and I answer your question I think on the on the leadership level, but at a bigger level, I there I was cognizant of the fact that I was getting back on the same train. I was cognizant Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: of the fact that I knew enough to say I'm not gonna take that job in DC even though it pays me a stupid amount of money because I I don't want to travel an hour and forty five minutes each way. Right? Like I knew I wasn't going Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. www.morebeccapearce.com: to take that away from my family again. But I also knew that I wanted to be a CEO again and that I was was still driving for that exact same okay, well if I failed there I'm gonna achieve someplace else, right? So I was cognizant of the fact that Rebecca Snyder: Right. www.morebeccapearce.com: I had just gotten right back on that exact same train at the time. and in terms of what I learned for myself, it really was around the saying no and learning what it is that I I think I struggled with believing that I needed to know every single thing that was happening in the organization. And I was so in the weeds that I couldn't get out and lead effectively. that I definitely would have taken that with me. you know, and did take that with me to my next job. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Well and I feel like you can't learn all the lessons at once. Like it is, you know, you www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: gotta absorb one and then it the universe taps you on the shoulder again, just, you know, a little over a year later to have a really serious health incident. www.morebeccapearce.com: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: So tell us tell us about that and how that affected the way that you lead and move through the world. www.morebeccapearce.com: And I think that that was, you know, when when the universe did tap me on the shoulder again, that is when I I I I remember thinking to myself, I didn't listen the first time. I I I need to slow down and understand what the universe is saying to me. And so when I went in for that hearing exam, I couldn't hear out of my left ear. And when I went in for my hearing exam, I essentially walked out with them saying, you have a brain tumor and you need surgery imminently. And it was five weeks from the time that I was diagnosed to the time that I was on the table. And then once I came off the table, it was as if I had a stroke. my entire left side was weak, my face was Was paralyzed for a year. I'm mostly blind in my left eye, I'm deaf in my left ear. I have consistent, ongoing, very severe balance issues, all as a result of the surgery. And the interesting thing is, I was healthy. It's not like I was ever sick, right? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: It was just that I couldn't hear. And so that wake-up call when I, you know, spent six months learning to walk again and then to learn to run again. And, you know, I couldn't say my B's and my Ps and my name is Becca Pierce and all of these things to force myself to learn how to go back to work and prove to myself that I could do it again. It was then that I realized this isn't what I want. Right. But I had to go through that process to be like, but I can get back on that same track if I wanted to. And then I Rebecca Snyder: Right. www.morebeccapearce.com: realized I didn't want to anymore. So this time it was a choice to get off and do something different. Completely and kind of leaning into this. Well, this is my wake up call, this allows me to shift gears. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. It almost feels like you needed cover or an excuse www.morebeccapearce.com: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: to make that change initially. So like did that did that happen all at once or was it sort of like the space and time of recovery because you weren't working during that period, I assume. Or maybe just limited. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah, no, it was the space and time of recovery. I I didn't work for six months. And during that time I really was very focused on my physical recovery. And it wasn't until I went back to work that I did realize that this isn't this isn't really what I want anymore. This isn't important Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: to me. You know, at one point I had the choice of, you know, my daughter's bus picked up at 8 55 p a.m. You know, and I had an eight thirty meeting and I was like, well, I could, you know, ask somebody to watch her for th you know, thirty minutes or I could Could go to this very important meeting. And I went to the meeting, but that was the day that I was like, this is dumb. This is not what Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: matters to me. The only thing that matters to me now is putting my daughter on the bus. What am I doing? Why am I putting myself in this terrible situation where I feel like I'm being pulled in so many different directions? And it leads directly back to that core values discussion. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right, because what I realized is that my core value of family was being challenged every single day that I chose not to put my daughter on the bus. Rebecca Snyder: Were you and and you know, values change over time and I know family has always been a a central value for you, maybe not expressed in in the same way you're doing it now, but had you done your values sort of that values exercise and you had that those values when you were at health benefit and and this this space? www.morebeccapearce.com: I did not. I yeah. It that's a great question 'cause values do change. I I would tell you that my core values before that were probably like persistence, tenacity, strength, might have been winning. You know, it was all about achievement. achievement might have been one, right? And so family didn't show up in there in any way. And so it and so that shift for me was that realization that the only thing that matters in life is time. And all you Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: want when you received any kind of diagnosis, the only thing you want is more time. More time with your family, more time with the things that matter most to you. And for me that is family. And so that's when I began to recognize I don't need those things that I thought I needed anymore. I don't want them anymore. I want this instead. Rebecca Snyder: So when you were in that six month recovery period, is that when you kind of crystallized these values because you had space and time to really discern what you wanted? Or does do you do you hit your values every once in a while, I guess? Is www.morebeccapearce.com: Not until after eight Yeah. Well and it's interesting because I think that you know it wasn't until I went to coaching school. So, you know, when I was trying to figure out what's next I realized that I was often, you know, promoted before I should have been. I was often the only woman in the room, in the meeting room. You know, I have all of this experience that I can help other people be in charge. But coaching is not just telling people what to do. So I went back to school to get certified to become a coach, and that's where the values work began to come into play. And I began to realize, like, this made sense. And then I had a coach, like most coaches have coaches, and I had a coach who had to help me because there were For several months of me going back and forth between these two. But but I liked that old CEO. She got me to where I was supposed to be. She was kind of a badass. Like, what it I I'm gonna miss that, right? But like I don't really want it anymore, but I'm afraid I'm gonna miss it. And so she helped me recognize that both of those two can live together. Rebecca Snyder: Right. www.morebeccapearce.com: And the core values that are winning right now. our family, right? That's the one that drives everything right now, and that's okay. And you can still carry some of those things that you had before. You can still be a badass just in a different way. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Well and and I love that idea and and sometimes, you know, people talk about it as sort of like personas around a table. www.morebeccapearce.com: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: and so as you remade your identity I wanna hear more concretely how you reconciled your previous identities. Because you before you were high powered CEO, I'm sure you were like super smart girl or you know, whatever or fastest runner or whatever. And all those things can be true. They just don't sort of resonate at the highest frequency all the time. So how do you how do you kind of give up your badass CEO self, which really did do a lot of fun things or and reconcile it to the person that you you are? www.morebeccapearce.com: And that is much of what the book is about. What I've identified is that there's a a a four-phase process that everybody goes everybody goes through no matter what the changes is, even if it's as small as a New Year's resolution, you go through this just in very short time period. But the the mourning phase is that second phase where you do begin to recognize like okay I am going to mourn the loss of that person. And then allow then at the same time allow yourself to recognize that I do want these other things. So for For me personally, to get really tactical about it, it was that: well, who am I if I'm not this CEO? Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: And what I began to realize is that I am still the same person underneath. I'm still gonna, you know, ask you about your bottom line. I'm still gonna be, you know, detail driven and and keep my notes and do all of the things that I used to do before, but I am a kinder, gentler version of me. And these are the pieces that I want to bring in. And it was that I wanna listen to more people, I wanna hear what they have to say. I believe that emotions matter now. Like so it was being very tangible with myself about what pieces I wanted to bring in and what pieces no longer served me and saying thank you. I appreciate you got me 43 years. I appreciate that I was a CEO by the time I was 39 because of you. I appreciate all of those things. And I don't need you anymore. I'm good. I got it. And moving on. Rebecca Snyder: So and like the process of creating an identity, is not always linear. Did you find yourself kind of I guess backsliding seems kind of a pejorative word, but you know, what did that process look like for you? www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes, very much so. In fact, at one point I got a job offer a different job offer in California and this was after I had started coaching and I was leaning into the coaching, but I got this job offer and it was to run this huge business out in California. And I was like, my God, this is amazing. And all of a sudden all of those feelings came back. Like, I'm gonna be relevant and I'm gonna drive huge teams and I'm gonna be make it, you know, all of these things that felt like they fed me before. And I had this whole conversation with my husband. I was like, and he's and I was like, but there's this and there's this and and all of these things, right? and it would all of the things that I just said, it would do this for me. And It would do this for me and it would do this for me. It was all about what it would do for me. And he said He act his actual comment was the only reason I could see us doing this is greed. Because we're never gonna see you. We're gonna move to California with you. We're gonna have to create new lives and you're gonna be working the whole time. Like, what what does that do for us? And so Rebecca Snyder: that sounds so grim. www.morebeccapearce.com: right? Exactly. And so it was that sort of recognition that, like, right, there were pieces of me that still crave that. And so I kind of went in this one foot in, one foot out for a little bit, but it wasn't until I then had a conversation. conversation with him that said, okay, well if that's the case, if you, if we're gonna stay here and I get it, we had a very long, in-depth conversation, then I need you to allow me two years to build my business and I need us to invest in my business. And so that was the Rebecca Snyder: good. www.morebeccapearce.com: decision that finally moved me forward and say, okay, like I don't need this anymore because I now have it, those pieces of pride and the things that drive me in my new business. Rebecca Snyder: Right. It feels like you've had to confront a lot of things that might have been uncomfortable about maybe your actions or who you were and so and but you're very open and vulnerable about those things. So I wanted to talk to you more about how you use that vulnerability, but how it doesn't diminish you as a leader or if you have strategies on that. Like your your authority, you you're you're not apologetic in this s in like you're you're not apologizing for those things. You're relating them. And so how does that tie into your leadership style and why is that effective? www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because what I realized, and there's a chapter in the book about vulnerability is the key to leadership. And I realized that prior to and first of all, I was forced into some sort of vulnerability. I was forced into physical vulnerability. And for somebody who believed that if you just tried harder, then you would you would be able to get it. It would that was very, very, very difficult for me to learn. And when I went back to work, I mean I would fall into a wall. I would, you know, I mean, there there was so much forced physical vulnerability that allowed me to recognize that what I realized during that is that people liked me more. Like people were Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: willing to to start speaking to me and and helping me and things like that. And so that helped me recognize that also from Brene Brown, you know, listening and reading Brene Brown, recog this recognition that vulnerability is Not just throwing up on somebody to make them feel bad for you. Vulnerability is the acceptance that, like, I don't have the answers, right? And I didn't have the answers at the exchange, but I thought that I did, or I thought that I was supposed to. And so the Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: leadership, the leadership model now that I follow is everybody in this room probably has, you know, put together way better ideas than I do. And if we solicit those ideas and people recognize that I don't have all of those answers, then that makes that vulnerability. vulnerability show up as humanity. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right? And and it allows you to lead differently. Rebecca Snyder: And I think that is that sort of that servant leadership idea of like we're going to bring everyone together and pull people like create the own the create the table that everyone comes around is www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: so powerful. How do you see that playing out in the world that that doesn't, however, feel like it's the go-to for most leaders? www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: So when you're working either with your clients or sort of in the wild, how do you recommend people sort of start that vulnerability journey? Because that can feel really scary. Like you were plunged into it. You cannot control, you www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: cannot control your physical responses. But to be sort of emotionally vulnerable is a whole different kettle of fish. So what do you recommend people try? www.morebeccapearce.com: Yeah, that's also a great question. I have a client who has grown her business exponentially and just a couple of years ago she began this process and what we worked on first was just ask their opinion. Just say, Rebecca Snyder: It was www.morebeccapearce.com: we're gonna do this. What do you think? That doesn't, you know, that very first baby step does not say, I don't have the answer. That very first baby step sa does not say, I don't know what I'm doing, right? It's just I'd like to get your buy-in. What what do you think? Is Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. www.morebeccapearce.com: there any way that we could make this better? And so just to that very little tiny step that you can take to just say, what do you think? And actually mean that you want to know what they say. Like mean it when you ask it. You can't just say, what do you think? and then ignore what they have to say, but like be intentionally curious. What do they think? And that little tiny step gives them the space to recognize that they have the ability to speak up and say something to you, and gives you the space to then take that next baby step to say, actually, I would love you to come to me with an idea on this. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. www.morebeccapearce.com: So it's really just very small steps. Rebecca Snyder: That you can practice. I do feel like all of that is muscle memory. You know, you feel super exposed, maybe the first time you fall into the wall or, you know, can't pick up the www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: fork or whatever, metaphorically. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right. Rebecca Snyder: but as you do that over and over again, it feels more comfortable and people support you more. Is that sort of what you're getting at? www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Yes. And the the very first step is not an automatic, you know, you're opening yourself a hundred percent. The very first step is, let me just ask your opinion. Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. www.morebeccapearce.com: Right? And so again, you're not putting anything too far out there, but it is those little small steps that you can put in practice that open up more and more. Rebecca Snyder: Well and and as we as we close down, 'cause we could talk together for hours, but I don't want to keep you forever. I wanna know what's stirring for you next, because your journey has been in some ways both, you know, you've had some huge shifts and changes, but a lot of your growth has been sort of incremental doing the next right thing. So what's the next right thing for you? What's stirring? www.morebeccapearce.com: So I'm I'm super excited to first and foremost, when whenever I start something new, the number one thing I do is invest in myself. And so I'm actually going to a year-long program to become a keynote speaker and speak in a different way than I've spoken before. I speak all the time with in front of organizations, but it's often as you know, this type of speaking, like what can we do from a leadership perspective and that type of thing? And what I am gonna be doing is now speaking About my story and a true keynote kind of inspirational speaking. So very excited to be doing that in the next year. Rebecca Snyder: That is exciting. So if people are interested in that or the book, I see you've you've put it down more bec more beckapierce dot com as your your site and that will share more about your coaching practice, your book, speaking engagements and all sorts of good things. www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes, exactly. Yeah, and you like you said, you can get the book there and there's actually a values exercise right underneath where you can buy the book that you can click on to to take your own values exercise there. Rebecca Snyder: wonderful. Well good. I hope people take advantage of that because we've talked in in other guests have talked about the centrality of their values and using it as a decision-making tool. And once www.morebeccapearce.com: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: you get clear with yourself, it's so much easier everywhere else. So www.morebeccapearce.com: Yes. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: thank you so much for coming to visit with me. It's always a delight to talk to you and I hope we'll we'll get to talk again soon. www.morebeccapearce.com: Awesome. Thank you.