Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 281: Sacred Seeds

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Ep. 281: Sacred Seeds · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is Me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: folk bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything. Presented by First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Everybody joined today by very special guest Taylor Keen. Oh Maha,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Cherokee correct correct Part den is open, which we'll get into.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I am I have part early homing it and then
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: uh and then as all of us are. But you
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: ever hear den is open? It's different, right, yeah, because
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you know you talk about folks like me wind up,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Folks like me wind up throwing a little bit of Neanderthal.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I've got Western Europeans. Oh you got a little of
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: that too. Okay, we'll get to that. I've been a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: lot of people don't know what I'm not really clear
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: what adnis open is other than I know it's another homedin.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Like I did a fair better research last night because
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I really didn't know what it was. And I'm not
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: saying I'm the expert now, but I had the same
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: question just like if you were a dear today, if
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you were a dear today winding around, like let's say
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: your white tailed deer and you wander around and like, oh,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: there's another kind of deer. It's a meal deer. He
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: there's another kind of deer. It's a blacktail deer. Um. Once,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: by the time you could have been a homed in
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: walking around, you have been Oh hey, it's another kind
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: of homedy. We'll get to that. Um, Clay, you were
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: on Rogan's podcast. Was that fun? Yeah? Well that's for sure,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: really unique experience. I listen to a little bit of it.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I didn't quick because I got bored, mind you just
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I just haven't gotten through it yet. Oh you didn't quit.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I thought you said you did quit because you got bored.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I was like, well, okay, if if that was true,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: that was true, and it's not, I wouldn't have told
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: you that. Yeah, let me give me a break. I
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: have said something like, um, I just said something like
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: good job, Clay. Yeah, I said that was a great job, Clay. Yeah. No,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I I don't know. I thought it was good. We
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: enjoy hanging out with him. Oh yeah, and and and
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't get to spend a lot of time with
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Joe aside from just in the podcast. But unique experience
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: going down there. I mean, you know, just being on
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: his podcast was probably the it was. It was less
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: It was less intimidating than I thought it would be.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: And I won't lie. I was slightly intimidated, but and
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: and and just in a normal kind of way. But
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: once once you got in there, Joe's a great guy
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: to talk to, a great interviewer. He's very he's very
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: generous and gracious. I did not know what he knew
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: about me, so I didn't know what we were going
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: to be talking about. You know. The conversation flowed along
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: a pretty standard like Clay knew him talking point, you know,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: other than if there were a few there were a
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: few curveballs which were fun, but no, Yeah, but Joe's
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: like he's very I feel like he's as an interviewer,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: he's very sensitive to things. It's almost like he picks
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: up things floating through the air. Like I feel like
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: I could show him your thumb print and he'd be
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: he'd tell you a bunch of like he tell you
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: a bunch about the persons, you know what I'm saying.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Like I feel like you could listen to episodes of
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: bevery Grease podcast, listen to like two episodes of Grease
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: podcast and kind of really like understand what to talk
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: about what to ask. It's very sensitive that way. Sure,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I can't tell what's there's a good there's good news
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: and bad news. I want to talk about drought and heat,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: but I also want to talk about the t RCP
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: land Access Appreciation thing. Here's the deal. Uh, this is
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: gonna sound Montana centric, but understanding that it's it's not
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Montana centric. In the state of Montana, there's a program
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: called the Block Management Access Program. And how it works
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: is this. They take revenue drawn from people buying hunting licenses, okay,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: and they take this revenue and they enlist private landowners, ranchers, farmers,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: other private landowners. They enlist private landowners into the black
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Manager program. Once private land is in the Black Management program,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: you hunt it for free. So nonresident resident I mean
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: everything we're talking about, everything from elk turkeys live on
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: these places and you come and hunt Black management. And
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of like a lot of things
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: that are cool, such as national forests and other stuff.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: A lot of people kind of think that it must
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: have like one day fallen from outer space and there
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: it is, and they don't realize that's sort of like
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: effort that goes into it. The landowners do get paid
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: to enrolling black manage, but it trusts me, it is
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: not enough to offset the inconvenience and in hassling risk.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: It's just like like, no one is going into black management, uh,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: licking their lips about how rich they're gonna yet it
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: just doesn't work that way. It's an act of generosity
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: to put your land in black management. Um. We got
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: this idea from my brother who was involved in another
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: carent incarnation. Where do you say carnation that's like a
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: kind of condensed milk? What do you say like because
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: it's not a reincarnation, which we got to talk about
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: because that thing about weasels being doomed so well that
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: some other days stay tuned for that. That's feel I'm
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: gonna Phil get my interest meter out. When I talked
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: about Phil hates that interest me. Um, what was I saying? Oh,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: so we're doing a thing called the t RCP Montana
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation Sweepsteaks finally crafted title
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Mind you Again, Montana. I think I came up with
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: that was it was like, this is why happens on
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: three people try to come up with the title together.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: It's called the Montana Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: sweep steaks. We have gone what what what? What are
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: you smirking about over there? Phil, I'm just a mouthful
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: of a name. Yeah, it's a great name. I like
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: it because it lays it all out. You don't need
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: a subtitle with a name like that, right. Uh, it's
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: a sweepstakes donations. So we got all kinds of crazy things.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: You could win tons of things, and you buy tickets,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: and then what we're gonna do is we're gonna take
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: all the money that we get from this, every last penny.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: We're doing this in conjunction with t RCP. Theodore rolls
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: about conservation partnership in conjunctu with t RCP. You buy
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: these tickets and you win a bunch of stuff, and
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: then we're gonna take all the money and buy things
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: to thank people who enroll their land in black management.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: We're not talking about sending them like coffee mugs and whatnot,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: like buying them farm and ranch equipment, gate mechanisms for
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: you know, like uh, automatic gates, calf shelters, stuff people need,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: help them get stuff they actually need. That's going on
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: right now up to when Kran entered by August one
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: at midnight Eastern standard. Five dollars gets you one entry.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Between ten and twenty four entries you can get for
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: four bucks. If you buy more than twenty five entries,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: you get them for three bucks apiece. You can only
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: do five hundred entries per person. Do this list like
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: when I try to chain saws, meat grinders, meet craft
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: knives full first like kit byan o'harness kit, Javelin, pro hunt, bipod,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: when I try to load all the things, like smoke
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: comes out of my computer. That's how many things are available.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: We gotta tell him the link. That's a good idea.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Tell him, uh, it's support dot t r CP dot org,
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  Speaker 1: forward slash b M A yeah. So if you hunt
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Montana and you use BLM, and if you live here,
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  Speaker 1: you're guaran almost guarant damn t you do, or you
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: visit and use block management, jump in and start one
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: of these in your own state to reward and thank
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: people who open their lands up. Can now on to
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: the bad stuff. Holy cow, the heat wave, an extreme drought.
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  Speaker 1: It's so bad they're air dropping air dropping water to
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  Speaker 1: keep big horn sheep alive in Nevada Nevada Department of
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Wildlife replenishing desert big horn sheep's only source of water
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  Speaker 1: for miles. Without intervention, animal populations will decline. Ecosystem viability
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: is threatened. Nevada is experiencing intense drought for the second
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: year in a row. Last year, I didn't know this.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Las Vegas went two forty days without measurable rainfall. This
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: year of the state is in what's called exceptional drought,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: which is the highest level of drought according to National
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Weather Service. Elk to Lee elk in California. There's a
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: population of to the elk in California. They're dying from
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: lack of water, dying of dehydration. They had a historic
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: water source they would use at this point Rees National Seashore.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: How how does that pronounce raise rees? What is that?
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: There's been an ongoing issue where the elk are using
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: water and feed that was meant for cattle. So they
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: put a fence up, but only some of these elk
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: can get at this fence. About a third about a
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  Speaker 1: third of the population died of dehydration because they don't
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: have any water source on their on their ground, they
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: can't get around. Defense not to defense but around to
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: get skate of the you know, food and water. This
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: is a tricky one. I feel like, get into it. Well,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: one you have like a cattle lease, which is you know,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: the reason the fence went up because the elk are
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: competing with these cattle, and so you got to start
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: to think about whether, you know, what's more important, you know,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: these animals that we all own or someone's private cattle.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: You know, and again we don't know the nuances. They
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: have a grazing lease. They have a grazing lease. But
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: most places, I mean here, where you have grazing leases
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: on public land, you don't fence out wildlife. Yeah. Um,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: so that's interesting. So it was for sure public land.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: It's National Park Service land. Mm hmm. They're being sued mhm.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: So the historic the historic water on their side of
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the fence usually would have been enough, but it wasn't. This. Yeah, yeah,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: one of the you know, I gather it's like this
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: like highly fenced area, and I also gather that it's
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: like a pretty managed herd, but they're yeah, they're not
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: able to get to water. Listen, man, I've tried this
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: a lot. I've tried sitting around and telling myself about all,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: you know, the insane heat everywhere. I've tried sitting around
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: being like there's no such thing as climate change, those
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: such thing as climate change. It's just hot. But son
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: of a bitch man. After a while, you can hide,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: you can hide. It's it's it's like getting hot. It's
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: gonna be bad for wildlife. It's just yeah, you can
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: say that. I don't think you can sit around saying
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: it's not. You can say like, I don't care. You
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: can argue about what's causing it. You can argue about
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: the cause, but it's not if you like to hunt
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: and fit. Change is coming. Yeah, yeah, dude. Another interesting
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: thing this is this is a crazy one. Kevin Murphy
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: sent this to me this morning. So San Jose, San Jose,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: California passed a gun like a really weird gun control
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: measure that it's very puzzling to me. Basically that if
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: you own guns, you pay a tax, and the tax
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: is supposed to offset what it costs the city to
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: address gun related phone call gun related crime. So you
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: can imagine someone who's got like a pistol they bought
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: on the corner, tucked down to the back shed and
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: they're planning on, you know, doing armed robbery, and they're like, dah,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I forgot to send him my tax money. Let me
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: come on, we're supposed to get liability insurance. I think
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: if you want to find a parallel San Jose, California
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: at that struggle for a parallel thought of this would
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: be like if you you could one could make the argument,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: they could say the First Amendment rights cost taxpayers money. Okay,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: let's say there's a there's there's there's a protest, there's
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: a protest of Um, there's a massive protest to protest. Uh, well,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: give me something people. Let's say there's a massive protest
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: to protest the outcome of the presidential election. And there's
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a massive counter protest to protest people protesting the outcome
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: of the presidential election. So you have all these people
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: with mixed ideologies exercising First Amendment rights. Okay, there's a
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: police president, there's a police presence. They there's cost of
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: business because business is closed. There's cost the police because
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: police come out they monitor it. There's there's community meetings
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: that are set aside to plan like safe protest spaces,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: to cordin people off. It's very expensive. So someone could say,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: if you want to exercise First Amendment rights, you need
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: to pay at tax because it costs us money to
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: have First Amendment rights. And someone would say, like, but
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the peaceful people aren't committing crimes and burning down buildings,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: why should they be paid tax to pay attacks, to
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: which I would say, wonderful point. Yeah, it's absurd, It
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: is absurd. Yeah, it seems like just a punishment, a
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: punishments legal gun owners. It's just grasp and it's so well.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Kevin Murphy made the point that it's it's like a
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: path towards only that the rich and privilege have weapons. Mhmm,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: those that can afford shot and the Appalachians. Wait till
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the next podcast, Claire, can you give us the update
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: on Brunal the Bear? So, first tell us about you
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: told us before about Brunal the Bear. So, Bruno the
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Bear what I did a report on him on this podcast.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: He came from Wisconsin and traveled all the way down
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: to Arkansas, and he gained national attention going through crop fields.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Did you see that, Taylor? Do you remember that from
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: He gained national attention like this black bear walking through
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: corn fields and stuff, and and he was extremely uh,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: un unalarmed by people, so people would be masses of
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: people would be following him and he just kind of
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: mind his own business and he never got into any
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: significant nuisance trouble. And like a thousand mile journey or
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: however long it was, tell him the theory, tell him
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: the theory about how he did. So there was there's
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: lots of theories about why this bear made this journey,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: and you know, the biologists chimed in or like you know,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: bears only travel that far if they're looking for new
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: home ranges, new mates, or food. There was theories that
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: so he was heading from the north to Arkansas. We
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: have a bear population in Arkansas, and he walked across
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: all this country that did not have resident bear populations.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: So there was a theory that he climbed on a
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: boat on the Mississippi River, a grain barge and was
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: my garbage can last night. I'll believe that. Yeah, there
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: was a theory that he climbed into a grain barge
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: and traveled up north and got off the barge, which
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: is bizarre, you know, probably and then he was just
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: coming home. He was coming home the corridor. Yeah, homing
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: instinct is really strong, like when they trapped bears like that.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Bears very rarely don't come back to where they came from.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: That's like a good plot for a kid's movie. Yeah yeah,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: but we'll make it a pet dog that gets lost
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: on vacation. It's already been done. So this bear, he
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: wintered in northern Arkansas, as I understand it, This is
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: where you left off last time, right, Yeah, he was
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: just in northern Arkas and people were My mom was
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: texting me and Clay, please don't kill Bruno because I'm
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: in Arkansas. Un because people people were very worried about
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Bruno showing up in Arkansas because there's the he could
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: have gone into a hunt. Yeah, that's right. And and
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: so now this I don't have all the details on,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: but he was basically trapped as I understand it, in Arkansas.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Potentially in Missouri. He may have gone back over the
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: line of the Missouri He was trapped by gaming fish
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: and relocated to northern Louisiana. Because basically, the bears out
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: of Arkansas are spreading in like all directions, southern Missouri,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: northern Louisiana, East Texas, south eastern Oklahoma, and for whatever reason,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: they chose to release him in Louisiana. Sad story. Boys,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: he got hit by a car in Louisiana on Tuesday
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: and they had to euthanize him. Yep, so Bruno's dead.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry the things he's seen, man, Yeah, no doubt
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: there was. There was the theory that he was that
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: he was a tame bear because of how unusual he
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: was with his uh, how he interact with people. I
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: mean tam like, not like habituated, but tame, like a
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: circus bear. Yeah, like somewhat like it was a bear
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: that had been like rest or something. But I don't
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: buy that either, just zero fear of humans. Tame bear
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have survived. No, and a tame bear would
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: have gone and tried to get in somebody's refrigerator in
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: their house. What was so amazing He traveled that far
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: and never got in trouble, and so they were trying
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: to do him a favor by taking him to Louisiana.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: So long live beast. They were trying to It's not
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: common for bears to go north and south in their migrations, right,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: just not then far, just not that far. I mean
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: they might travel. You know, there's documentation in Missouri and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Arkansas Bears traveling like a hundred and fifty miles, but
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: a thousand miles is very It's just not heard of.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Maybe he wasn't an involved Bear. He was kind of
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: an emissary or an ambassador for for the Bears. Perhaps, Yeah,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: he's a scout. He might have been a scout. Yeah,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: he was something like, if I don't come back, don't
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: go south. Uh yeah, I need tell about that mountainin
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: you're telling me about m oh that last week I
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: was with our buddy Bart George and we're filming his
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: mountainlin hazing studying that he's doing over in North Spokane, Washington.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Would you ought to explain real quick? Oh? Yeah, I
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: remember we talked to me. Yeah, you know what. After
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: being there and hang out with his whole crew for
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: a week a couple of times, now I feel like
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: we should go and do a podcast with the whole
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: crew and ship chat with him because he's got Bruce
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Duncan as you know, is you know, a real wonder
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: of this world. I found out the other day Bart
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: thinks that he is the man living that has treated
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the most cats in this country right now, at roughly
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: cats because all that research and government and just yeah,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: and all the outfitting has done and the fact he's
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: been doing it for over fifty years. Um, yeah, pretty interest.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Two names I'm not gonna say their names, we'll talk
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: like but he shown does he win the cat Lady Trophy?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Uh. And then Jeff Blood
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: who's the wildlife specialist for the county's up there. Very
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: interesting guy, been trapping and doing stuff his whole life.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: But does Bart still with Yeah, the Callisbelt Tribe and
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: so the Callisbelt Tribe is doing they're the ones that
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: are funding the study, doing the study. But he's working
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: um inca hoots with Washington Department of Game and Fish.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: And then like I said, the Stevens and uh, I
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: can't remember the name of the other county now, but
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the Sheriff's office. Um, a lot of people are kind
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: of chipping in to help on the study. But what
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: he's trying to do is because they're having just they've
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: got a real uptick in depredations and human mountain lion
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: conflict and interactions, and so he came up with a
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: study to see if hazing might help just kind of
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: heap the mountain lions like away from humans a little bit.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And so how he's doing it is they catch a lion,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: they put a collar on it, they come back a
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: week later, they know exactly where the line is. They
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: walk towards the lion with a speaker on Bart's chest
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: on just hanging off his backpack. That's playing the meat
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: eater pots. So he still plays the podcast to the lions.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's great. Yeah, no, I got it. While the
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: problem is the lions are gonna hang out because they're
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: so interested. You gotta give those lions interest film on
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: top on the collar. Put an interest meter dial on
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: on that. While while Sam was explaining the lobster uh
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: debate that was recently on, we got to within I
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: think eleven yards of the mountain. Yeah, I mean at
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: eleven yards because you see it yet, No, because she's
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: like in like you know, three or four furs that
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: were all bushy, you know around the bottom. They were
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: not that close. Yeah, because we're looking at the GPS
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: like thirty three faiter, what's not any of the three
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: lines that we did that too, that we walked up
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: to the other one was like fifty and then one
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: ran at like seventy yards and not kidding me, it's strippy.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: This one the closest one eleven yards and it left. Yeah,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: and then that one literally has been living in this
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: area that if you walk down the hill five minutes,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: you're on like a it's a rural highway. But right
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: on the other side that road is basically like this
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: little community on like it's like a lake community with
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: all these little houses and condos and stuff. And there's
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: a trail system where this cat's been hanging out. So
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: that cat sits there in the trees and listens to
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: dogs and humans and stuff going by her and cars
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: all the time and like totally just you know, that's
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: her home. Yeah, it was wild. So anyways, so what
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: he's on to see if hazing works. So when he
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: comes back, now he's got this cat on a GPS collar,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: so he walks towards it. Playing the podcast at eighty decibles,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: which is quite a loud mind you. I mean it's
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: like my voice projected like if I'm excited, it's probably
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: equal to roughly eighty decibles. And doesn't it feel like
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: distinctly sort of post modern that that they will in
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the future be listening to you talking about them listening
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: to this show. It's like staring into a mirror and
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: there's a mirror behind you. It's getting deep deep um, God,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: he's totally lost. I'm just trying to stay on track
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: with how so that everybody understand how this problem question
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: that won't throw us off this particular cat had he
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: been in trouble before, she had not been. So we're
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: hazing a cat that's not been in trouble though. Okay, no,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: because you in in these parts are those parts where
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I was, if they've been in actual trouble, like, if
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: there's been a depredation, they're dead. Kind of let me
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: interject with the thing that Bruce told me, the Bruce
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: you're talking about after that, when when you know, Washington
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: had two summers ago had the first fatality from a
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: mountalin first human fatality from mounta lion in state history.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: And then then shortly after, like a month or two later,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Oregon had its first human fatality from a mountain lion
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: in years. I mean, it just doesn't happen, right, but
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: then it happens twice in one summer and to states
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: you know, and then you're like, wow, what's going on?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: So you want to draw conclusions from this, but maybe
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: there's nothing to be drawn. And when I put it
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: to Bruce, I was like, what do you think about that?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: You know, on one hand, he's like, it's freak right.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: We'll go another hundred years and no one will get
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: killed by mountainlin. But if there is something there, what
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: he he put out is this like in his whole
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: career of doing work on lion control for the state.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: In the early days of his career, if someone saw
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: a line, you came out and killed it. People didn't
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: want them around, and he'd be like, you see one
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: on your porch, it's a deadline. It doesn't matter if
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: it did anything wrong. Kill the dog, it's just dead.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: And he said, as tolerance has increased, and now you
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: know you don't just like kill every single line that
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: crosses the street in front of a car. Um he says,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: it's probably gonna be that there's just gonna be more
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: interactions because our tolerance is shifted, and we don't just
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: dust off every single thing we can dust off because
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: someone's scared. And there's a lot more lines, there's a
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: lot more people, there's a lot more people going into
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: wild places, So yeahs wild because of you know, us
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: moving into them and living in them. I'll tell you
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: a podcast guest and I can't say his name, but
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: I know the guy that tracked down that mountline and
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: kills him and being serious, I know the trackdown what
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the lion. And I don't know if it was the
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: fatality in Washington or Oregon. If it's if it's Washington
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: we're talking about, we know the same person. Well, I
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: think I think this was the Oregan lion. And I
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: know the guy that went to that scene, track that
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: line down, I mean went to the you know, the
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: site where the person was killed. He said it was
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: it was a wild story. Yeah, and he it was
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: a was that the two mountain bikers? No, that was Washington.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: This was a lady, this was this was a woman. Yes, yes, anyway,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: we'll tell you. Yeah, you want to do one upsmanship
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: on podcast? No? No, no, no bringing up, keep going. Yeah.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: We gotta hurry out because I think we have a
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: great one sitting right here across us. More ut of
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: time here. Um. So they walked towards him playing this podcast,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: and Bart's watching the GPS. And once the cat leaves
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: its bed or wherever it's sitting or sleeping at the moment,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: he marks that distance from him to the cat. Then
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: he watches the cat and the GPS and see how
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: far it goes, how far it flees, which he's taking
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: other um like environmental data points as well, and basically
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: is trying to figure out how much energy is the
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: cat willing to expend once it's been bumped, and then consequently,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: after it's been hazed multiple times, is it willing to
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: expend more energy because it doesn't want to go through
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: the hazing again. So once he picks up those two
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: data points, uh, they cut the dogs loose, which usually
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: come from however far behind, however far he had to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: walk to get to the lion. They track him to
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: the where the fresh mountain lion track is. Then they
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: run the lion. It's usually over pretty quickly. They jump
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: the line into a tree. The hazing. The first hazing
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: actually is via paintball, so they'll sit there and as
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: many times the cattle take it. The dogs are gone
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: at this point and as soon as the cat climbs
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: and jumps out of the tree and runs, that's it.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: They that's the hazing. Then they repeat that with minus
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the paintballs three more times and see you know, they're
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: again collecting those data points of how close did they
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: get and how far did the cat run before it
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: stopped and chilled out, you know, after it heard the
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: meter podcast at eighty decibels, in order to determine if
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: there is a problem line. Could is it possible to
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: get it to change its behavior without euthanizing. Yeah, and again,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: it's probably never gonna happen with problem lins. It'll probably
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: just happen with lions that like, like you were saying,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: across the street in a place where there's a bunch
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: of little kids living around, or there's a lion that's
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: been seen a couple of times near a boy scout
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: camp or whatever. But like I said, as soon as
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: they call them to help them not become problem lines. Yeah,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: right now, they're north of Spokane. There's a very very
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: low tolerance for cat and public perception is down, like
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: is negative right now with cats, unfortunately, and they aren't happy.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: A lot of them aren't happy with the way that
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: the Washington Department Efficient Game has been handling it. And
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: so there, you know, that's why Jeff Flood like it
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: gets Yeah, it's it's socially, you know, complicated, but so yeah,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: probably it'll just happen with cats that are like in
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: areas amongst people, they're seen and hopefully they can hate
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: them a little bit and keep them alive. Talking about
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the super line, all right, So one, it has been
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: tried in the past of relocating lions that were problem lines.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And again there's so little research done onlines and known
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: about lines that people just we just don't know enough yet, right,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So a lot of times they thought, oh, it's like
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: one lion causing the problem, you know, but they shoot
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: the line and then you know, three two weeks later,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: you know, in the same zone, another sheep gets killed, right,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: so it wasn't the same line. Anyways, they tried relocating
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: something one I forget the exact number, but it was
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: up there. It was like miles. They moved it and
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: it took the cat literally like two days, and it
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: was back at the same farm and killed another sheep
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and it had been ear tagged or marked somehow, so
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: they knew that it was the same cat. But what
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: was interesting is that it's from that journey it's pads
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: were just worn off, like there was almost no pad
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: left on his palm m man. They know they wow. Yeah,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I could pull that off if
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: you blindfolded me and dropped me off from about just
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the mechanism that works inside of an animal to have
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: that homing instinct, because it's got it's picking up data
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: from somewhere. I mean it's not I mean they're they're
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: picking up they have some there's something happening. I'd like
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: to know the mechanics. And yeah, we had a pet
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: pitches Is one time, and they the neighbor people were
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: complaining about him shoot in everybody's house and whatnot. And
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: my brother had to go to a work meeting. He
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: went quite a way his way, I can't remember what
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: it was, but almost a hundred miles away. You had
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: to go to an overnight work meeting. So he took
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the pigeons up there and caught him loose. When he
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: got home, they were already home. They beat him home.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: But they're famous for that. HM. A new paper published
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: in the journal Nature details the release of new DNA
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: evidence extracted from sediment in Dennis Over Cave. Oh that's
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: where the Dennis Open name comes from, right, The vice
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: versa versa it's a cave in Siberia. Oh it is.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: But did did did the cave get named that because
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: of what's there? Or did the did the did the
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: humans humans get named about? Help me out. Damans are
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: named after the place because we don't really know what
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: they were called. Okay, So that's so it wasn't that
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: we knew. We named it somewhere else. There was a man,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: there was a modern man that lived in the cave
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: that was somehow had a name that started with with
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the D as I understood it. So they called it
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: that kind of cave. This is my understanding of it.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And then they went in and found the stuff and
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: they called the people that name of the cave. Is
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: that what you remember? Yeah? I slept in the cave
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: um no a southern to cave and Wyoming. They had
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: been slept in. I slept into cave and Wyoming. They
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: had been slept in by some cowboy that went crazy
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: and ate some people, and they named it after him.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: I slept in that cave. You haven't eaten anybody yet,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: but you're still young. Okay. Let me back up. New
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: DNA evidence extracted from sediment in Denisova Cave in Russian Siberia.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Previous analysis of ancient DNA extracted from fossils found in
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Denisova Cave have revealed that it was inhabited by Neanderthals,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: which sometimes I think they're back to Thal, but for
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: a while it's tall Neanderthal Neanderthals, falls, dennis Ovans, and
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: a hybrid of the two. But few fossilized few fossilized
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: remains have been found in the cave, so it's unclear
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: when different groups visited and in what order. Mhm. But
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: what's the time periods? To you? It's a long time ago. Now.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: This study provides a timeline of occupation with over seven
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: hundred sentiments samples dated from three hundred thousand to twenty
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: thousand years ago, so the cave could have sat there
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: for quite a long time between visits comin. It's three
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: hundred thousand years ago. That's interesting, right. I think part
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: of the reasons that I have Dennisovan DNA because we
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: don't know the story of how indigenous people's came to
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: the America's truly do we. There's theories about the barn
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: straight theory, but when you find DNA going that far
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: back in Siberia in Siberia means that we're different in
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: some sense, but we don't really know when indigenous people's
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: came here. But to have that antiquity of DNA that
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: flows into me today is fascinating. Right, tell me, tell
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: me what you mean by that. I mean, like, are
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you saying that there was another You're saying they didn't.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: There's other theories of well, I know, there's other theories
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: other than the Barren Land Bridge. You know, water access
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: through the Northwest. Forbid that indigenous people's got on boats
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: at some point. Figure that out. But we can get
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: into anthropology and John Wesley Powell and the Powell doctrine
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: later on, but it just bankes the whole question of
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: how indigenous people's got here. Yeah, do you do you? Um,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: that's a good question or not a good question, but
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: it's an interesting point. Do you do you contest or
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: do you like if you look at sort of the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: academic consensus. Okay, the academic consensus being like some point
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: in time, probably less than thirty thousand years ago, sometime
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: around thirty to twenty years ago, the first Americans entered,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: you know, the New World, Okay, entered what's now North
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: American South America via some sort of land bridge that
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: connected Alaska with Siberia. Like when you hear it, like
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: do you do you look? Is your viewpoint? I don't
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: know is your viewpoint? That sounds right, that sounds wrong,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: It sounds right. But I think there's more to the
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: story because now we found all sorts of anthropological evidence
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: that indigenous peoples were here thirty two thirty five thousand
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: years ago and beyond. So that goes beyond the Younger
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Drives event and makes you question how indigenous people's got
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: here so so long ago? Where is that? Because I'm
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: familiar with Cooper's ferry, which would have put things back
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: to like seventeen thousand years ago, But thirty thousand years ago,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: where where is that? Thirty two thousand plus down and
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: the tip of the Tierra del Fuego. I'll have to
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: look at my nose to see exactly who was the
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: researchers doing that. But the main fact that points to
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: me is the actual multiplicity of tribal languages in the
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Americas as a function of mathematical time, ten thousand years
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: was not enough to have the diversity of languages. Um, yeah,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: that's an interesting point. Man explained that a little bit
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: just going to that, just the variation. There's six or
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: seven main tribal language families in the Americas, but to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: have them diversify into such distinct dialects and different language
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: families would take a lot more than ten thousand years
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: to do it. If you're assuming that the Foundation Group,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: if you have this assumption that the Foundation Group was
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: some single wave of individuals who were that's not enough. Yeah,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I got you. But if there's multiple waves of it.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: But the questions for me is why is it so
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: inherent that we can only look at the bearing straight
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: language theory? Oh? Man, I feel like people looked at
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of theories. You ever hear the Salutrian theory,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: which was dismissed on like I think like dismissed on. Well,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: let me it's real quick if you if I get
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: it wrong. But there was this idea that if you
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: looked at paleolithic, well use the word paleolithic. We're talking
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: about your when you look at like paleolithic stone technology
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: thirty thousand years ago, forty years ago was remarkable, similar
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: to stone technology of Indigenous Americans from four years ago.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: So someone rather than being that different groups of people
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: came up kinda with the same idea independently. There was
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: this idea that ah ha, they had to have been
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: influenced but Western Europeans or vice versus Dave or vice versa,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and we don't know that. But that makes an interesting
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: question of was there some type of knowledge that was
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: inherent to both and then it came from somewhere else.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Certainly there was a lot of Europeans here earlier on
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: than Columbus. But again, that becomes one of those questions,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: why is the Columbus discovery doctrine such a big part
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: of Western American thought? Do you have a theory on
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: why it is? I've often wondered that, like why is
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: it John Wesley Pale? First? Well, but because yeah, because
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: like clubs never hit, he was never even he never
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: hit that, he never hit what became the US? Like
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: he landed in the West Indies? How how did it
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: become to be that that that school children feel that
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Columbus it's a great marketing job. But what are they
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: what were they marketing? How how Europeans discovered America and
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: civilized it versus looking at the actual history of how
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: many people were here in Americas and what they were
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: doing prior to that. Um, we got a lot of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: balls in the air right now. But I want let's
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: do this. I want let's talk about this one. We
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: got into the we got into the question of how
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Indigenous Americans arrived and when they arrived the question mark.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: But let's talk for a second. If you could explain
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: how many people were here? I was hoping we were
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: going to get to that. Yeah, I mean, we're like
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: out of you know, we're out of or I don't
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: know for a we're not out of order. Whatever, how
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: many people were here? A lot of different estimates, Um,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: A bunch of different camps from anthropology historically have gone
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: over it. But it's been a matter of political debate. Though.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: To me, the question is why there seems to be
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: an influence in anthropology, especially in amateur anthropology, to diminish
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: the number of people that were here, and that gets
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: to to make the crime not as severe. Right, So
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: what's being ignored entirely regardless of how many estimates have
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: gone up to over a hundred million, with the bulk
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: of those being in in meso America, So the heartland
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: of the food explosion in the America is whether it's
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Peru or or a Central America. That's a high extreme number.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: That is high extreme number, but that was for the
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: most part, that number is in in Meso America. The
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: numbers in North America the most liberal or around sixteen million,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: sixteen million people. Now this would have been at the
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: at the peak pre European pre disease. Pre disease is
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: the big point. So that's one of the things that
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: most people don't understand when understanding the history of America
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: is looking at what actually happened here before. So we
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: have accounts from the Spanish counkyst doors of these advanced
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: societies and vast numbers of people and then when they
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: got their butts kicked and then came back upset that
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: nobody was there. So one thing one of the things
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: that anthropology has been able to uncover now national geographics
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: doing a lot with this, but use of technology of light, art, etcetera.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: To find all these ancient villages, whether they're in Central
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: America or in South America. Um, but a smallpox for
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: the most part, you can throw in some plague, whatever
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: else you want. There's been traces of it found. But
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: whether it was Canada now the United States, Central America,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: South America. Nolan was immune to the impact of smallpox,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: and for the most part, those extremes go between eighty
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: five and decimation. Rights of the population died. So when
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: we're talking about and impact on these societies, um, if
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: you know which five percent has left? Were they the
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: most wise probably not. Are they the oldest story keepers?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Probably not? But what was left out of the five
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: percent leaves us with a cultural amnesia. Oh, like coming
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: out of a pandemic, it sort of gives you and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: we're upset about what what actual percentage of people died
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: from the pandemic and we were terrified, what's up? One
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: match in the world of everyone you knew and cared
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: and loved about was gone. But that's why I think
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: that I'm not trying to draw a pair of Please
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: don't think I was trying to draw a parallel between
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: smallpox epidemic and COVID nineteen. But I was saying, like,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: for a year we were invited to imagine, right, we
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: learned the sort of lexicon of pandemics. You know, a
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: new generation learned to like think and talk about contagion
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: and pandemics. Point being. If you imagine that of Americans
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: were carried off by COVID nineteen, some amount of time
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: elapsed and then someone showed up and wanted to sort
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: of categorize and describe us culturally, you would probably want
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to say, oh, no, no, oh, there's a big misunderstanding. Um,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: we all just died, you see, and we're in the
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: you know, we're in a period of tremendous turmoil right now. Mhmm.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: You know it would be similar to it because I
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: think that you, I don't know if you have feelings
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: about if you read he talks in there. I like
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Charles Mann's work a lot. He compares in their accounts
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: of people traveling down the Mississippi side, um post smallpox,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: they can't find anybody, right, but they encounter like city
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: or towns and cities and they're like all every but
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: left was the idea well packed up a win somewhere
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: was the best they could come up with. Or unfortunately
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: that those best cities or trading networks were not made
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: by them. So that's you have early anthropology trying to
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: understand what happened, and they found all these this evidence
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: of these mound builders or the Mississippian societies, and the
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: first bit of evidence they did was to go to
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: the local tribes and say, hey, what do you know
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: about these and there we don't know. But when you
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: put in to the equation that people died, there're gonna
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: have culture amnesia of nearly everything, perhaps safe stories, cosmology,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: the remnants of agricultural life ways. If this all would
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: have started happening in the fifteen hundreds pretty much when
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: when pretty much Europeans started coming here and bringing smallpox.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: So what you're alluding to is that so that's when
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: the decimation would have started. But then, like Cahokia, you're
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: saying that even at that time, there were remnants of
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: ancient civilizations that the natives that were alive knew nothing about.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: So there was some other, potentially some other catastrophic event
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: that happened pre European arrival. Is that what we're is
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: that what we're saying could be or could just be
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: a major change in an urban experiment. So you see
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: the rise of the Mississippian culture, uh somewhere around and
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: then around one thousand, ten fifty fifty four was the
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: big year. It was a big supernova in the sky.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: If we would see a star that hung there ten
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: times brighter than than Venus for two or three months,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and then hung out for another couple of years. Stars
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: in the sky seemed to be a very important thing
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: to human beings, influenced this religion, et cetera. And so
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: you have at some of these places. First and foremost
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: was Hokia. Of course we don't know what the name was,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: but that was a local name that they that they
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: found from it, but began the rise of an urban
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: population and a massive trading network, which goes back to
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: the question of where did they get that model from.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Was that an impact of Phoenicians, European societies coming Did
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: it come from us and went over there? Very very fascinating,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: but regardless places like a Hokey in the Rise of
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: the Mississippian cultures, um dispels the myth that America was
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: untapped wilderness. That's what I love about Charles Man's work,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: especially he's talking about the impact of the Colombian exchange.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Flora and faun are going over one direction, and flora
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: and faun are coming back. How did the potato get
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: to Ireland? How did baby corn get to China? Why
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: was their corn found in the ark Ark of the Covenant.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: These are interesting mysteries. What happened to a lot of
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: the copper in the Great Lakes that was mind out
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: because it probably wasn't mind by indigenous people because there's
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: no record of that being in in vast cases. So
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: the mysteries of America go well beyond what our understanding
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: is today. But hopefully between anthropology and history and conversations
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: like this, you know, eventually we're going to figure it out.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Can you explain Kahokia a little bit, but like just
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: a little more detailed massive trading network. It was an
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: empire for sure. There were boundaries, there were markers, there's
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff we have in the anthropological record.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: You have in the Mississippian cultures. The urban center that
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: was Cahokia, and it's at the confluence of the Missouri
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Mississippi and the Ohio Rivers, which effectively give you north, southeast, east,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: and west water passage to bring things there. It was
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: a massive trading network for sure because of the rivers.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't realize that. And it's just across
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: from modern day St. Louis and Illinois. Yeah, yep. And
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: it was it was a trading empire, and with it
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: came boundaries um East coast marine shells, um arguably precious
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: stones from the southwest Obsidian, many many, many things being
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: being traded. But back to the what was happening there
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: was these grand stories being told. Ultimately, the primary story,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: or arguably the oldest story in North America was about
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: the first humans. So we have first Father and first Mother.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes she's known as Mother Corn or Earth's Mother, and
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: they had a number of progeny depending on the tribes,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: and ultimately there were ten sons and two daughters. And
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: that was in the time of giants, and the giants
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: were competing with us as well, and we have evidence
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: of this through the anspological record. Ancestors of my mother
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: tribe um the Omaha, at a place called Picture Cave,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: about a hundred miles outside of the urban center of
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: of Kahokia. It's one of these places that has been
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: so desecrated that they won't tell you exactly where it is,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: but there's all these pictographs of all these stories battles
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: between the giants and First Father, and within that tree
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: of life, the first humans of a course, were from above,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: so they were part of the upper realm, and first
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Father he also carried the name of White Plume. But
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: ultimately he became interested and understanding the powers of the
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: lower realm. But probably that notion of Yen and Young,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: that there's a sacred balance and harmony. And he said,
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: um a spirit wolf down to the lower realm to explore.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: But that was taboo, and so one of the water
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: spirits ate it. First Father became upset with that and
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: made his own journey from the upper realm down to
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: the lower watery realm. And some of our stories he gambled,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: and some of the stories they dueled. But the water spirit,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: it was a beaver spirit. Ah won the battle, tuck
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: his life and kept his head and his body, send
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: it back up soulless without it. And thus enters the
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: stories of one of the sons called Red Horn and
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: his two sons, the twins. I'm referred to it as
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: the Red Horn trilogy. But he was the one that
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: you find all of these wonderful flint clay card figurines
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: out of spy row in the outskirts of Kahokia. But
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: tell the story of him. He had a clan name.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: It was probably along the lines of He who was
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: hit with deer lungs, probably had to do with the
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: clan taboo, probably a dear clan type of name. But
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: think things that you can't touch, things that you have
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: the rights to do, and things you can't do, and
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: that's probably had to refer to that. And eventually he
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: became a very very powerful character in this Mississippi cosmology
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: and history, and ultimately the giants became agitated with the humans,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: and these battles occurred back and forth and contests. In
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: one there was a race and the giants, being bigger,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: we're gonna win, except for the youngest one. He who
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: was hit with deer lungs, turned himself into an arrow
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: and won the race. Then they had a great stickball match,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: whether you look at the ball courts of meso America
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: or the variations today amongst stickball of the Cherokee, we
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: called it the little brother of warum versions of shinny,
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: which is probably influenced a lot of field hockey and
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: of course lacrosse. Little brother of war. Stick games were
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: preparation for future yes or brutal I played when I
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: was young brutal America there played to the death weren't there,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: and they did in this case too, and that's what
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: happened was he who was hit with deer lungs became
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: the most valuable player and they beat the Giants and
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: VP and all of all of the Giants team we
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: were killed except for one woman. And she was a
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: red haired Giantist and she was said to have been
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: very beautiful. The tribes of different names for her of
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: what she wore, etcetera. And she said, you may kill
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: me or I will take one of you as my husband.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: And so ultimately that's that union between her and the
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: figure that was to become Red Horn. They had the
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: thunder twins. Ultimately, in a scene of domestic bliss um,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: he who was hit with deer lungs was then married
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: to the Giantists. And depending on the tribe, the stories
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: changed a little bit, but ultimately she was teasing him
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: as she was cleaning the deer and was going to
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: take the lungs that was going to throw them at him,
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: and he says, no, don't do that, and all the
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: brothers said, oh, don't do that. We were just teasing,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: and he explains to everyone, no, you really shouldn't tease
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: me because I'm not really your brother. I'm from the
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Upper Realm, and I was sent by Earthmaker. So he
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: had a series of four trickster heroes that came here,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: and he was the fifth in the final to help
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Um Bringer of knowledge to humanity. And ultimately after that
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: he explained his true form, and he spit into his
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: hands and covered his big long braid, and it became
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: the color of red ochre. Thus all things sacred back
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: to the impact of the Neanderthal's Neanderthals, Dennis Ovans, all
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: of these things about ritual and art, etcetera. That was
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: our vision here. Ultimately, after becoming Um Red Horn, then
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: he also became his star visage as well, became the
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Morning Star. And there's many many stories and all the
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Plains tribe and the Suing tribes about what that role was.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: But then became the ultimate Battles as his son's the
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: thunder Twins went down and fought the water Spirit and
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: defeated it and brought back the head of First Father,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: and so that his body became unified once again and
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: became the great ascension story of North America. So all
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: great spiritual destined reverse become the focus of cosmology and
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: and religion for that matter, whether it's Jesus or Mohammed
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: or First Father. In this case, this was the story
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: that was celebrated at Khokia, was the spiritual ascension of
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: First Father back to the Upper Realm. So our stories
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: are Abraham and many sons said Father Abraham. I mean,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: I just think it's just so interesting that. I mean,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: it's something, it's something so big and giant, which because
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: you're saying it's it possibly was the largest city ever
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: on this continent or the earliest. At the time it
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: was the third largest city in the world. Yeah, you know,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. You ever heard of it, Steve, No,
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: I only heard of you know what you would describe
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: as like the Mississippian culture, the mound builders. But no,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I'm not familiar. Can we get
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: into the mounds a little bit? She's even reading your
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: chapter of the book. I'm not a like sure, Like
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: what were the mounds all about? And why are they
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: associated with these people? You know, I visited that Serpent Mound. Yeah,
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I can tell you a lot about that one too.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: It's absolutely fascinating with its links to Rko astronomy, as above,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: so below UM, so many of the mounds as as
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: we're we're finding, especially through k astronomy, that it was
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: very much looking to the stars and trying to take
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: those stories and to plant them here, make a connection
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: between the two. And you had the rise of places
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: like Cochia. You see the role of corn and ben
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: as squash coming to North America, and we're that those
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: modes of agriculture were than population exploded of indigenous peoples.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Tied that with the religion of the stories of First
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Father and the ascension, and then you have this this
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: this recipe for civilization. Let's where food and their marriage
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: came together to form civilization. At the confluence of those
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: two is where you find civilization here. But it became
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: a massive trading network and empire, and those stories were
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: shared trading. For the most part. At the city center,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: you had fifteen to two people at the actual um
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: epicenter of all those mounds there, and there were hundreds
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: of them, and we've lost many of them um due
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: to the can struction and progress of the St. Louis, etcetera.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: But ultimately you had this Grand Plaza and the Grand
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: Mound itself now known as Monks mound. But all of
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: those were built in fairly rapid succession. You see, the
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: reign of Khokia from around ten fifty too, began to
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: wane around twelve. And we're not exactly these mounds. Just
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: to give perspective, Oh, I want to say that Monks Mount.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I have to look at my notes. Um. I mean,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: they're they're big. They're big, maybe fifty feet in elevation.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just guessing off higher than that, probably a hundred
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: fifties two hundred stairs up those and there. The question
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: is how did they get built? You know, they're right
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: well right, but like how did they or you know,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: one of the questions is how did they move that
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: much earth? A lot of people, I know, the Serpent Mound,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: they didn't know it was there until air travel. It
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: was recognized from the air. They thought it was like
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: just a natural but from the air you could realize
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: it was his hundreds of yards long serpent with the
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: head and a tongue. Oh, I see, no one knew
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: the people that the people who are living there didn't
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: know it was there until someone's like, holy cow, it's huge,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: and we've got all there's all kinds of stuff about
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: its orientation which is in this A lot of that
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: comes from my dear friend Dr William Remain. He's probably
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: the leading r Q astronomy expert and he's done work
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: all around, but started in the eighties with Serpent Mound
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: that the undulations of the curve on one side are
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: are tied to movements of the Sun, on the other
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: side movements of the Moon. But what he discovered even
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: more importantly after that, along with others, was that its
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: orientation is pointing towards stellar North, so the head and
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: the tail lineup perfectly. But it also helps measure um
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: what is at the center? What is the poll star?
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: What is it today? What was it five thousand years ago?
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: And regardless of the wobble or procession of the Earth,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: it's still different. Radiants could point to the same thing.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: But the story itself, you'll find within most of the
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: tribes of Cherokees, we have a story about that, and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: it's about how the Serpent ain't the Sun, but it's
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: a constellation that you see at sunrise on summer solstice,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: that that constellation would would move towards the rising Sun,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: and it appears that it was eating the Sun. But
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: we still have those stories today, and that's there's some
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: aspect of that in the Serpent mound too, or somewhere,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: or at least I think it was eating an egg
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: or some mound effigy I thought was eating an egg.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: Then someone say's probably a sun. Yeah, yeah, it's it's
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: hard to say. But then you also have had parallels
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: between what does the egg mean metaphorically? Is it knowledge Sophia?
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: And then you get these comparables to the rest of
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Europe as well. You know, what is the sacred feminine,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: what is the sacred masculine? And perhaps that mound work
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: is a is a combination of both. At the very least,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: it was the rise of civilization in the Americas well
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: before we knew about the same type of civilization from Europeans.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: So typically we define civilization as mass, food and religion
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: coming together. So the rise of the three sister agricultural
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: life ways probably came up from from meso America. In
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: terms of cosmologies, that are, they're all very similar. But
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: you had explained the term cosmology cosmology, you know just
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: where we come from. Um, all of our stories are
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: indigenous stories, so most part are are very well tied together.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: But our original stories talk about that originally our homelands
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: were in the Seven Sisters constellation of ple eight s,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: and that we came here on what most of the
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: tribes called journey of the souls, and and our and
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: my mother's tribal cosmology. Um the story talks about that
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, our souls were like stars in the sky,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: thought but no form. And eventually one of those souls,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: one of those stars, asked the question of itself, who
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: am I? And that question burned within that soul, that star.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: So that star went to its mother, the moon, And
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: that's part of the cosmology that all things sacred feminine
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: come come from the moon, and said mother, who am I? Oh,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: my child, she said, I was afraid you were going
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: to ask that question. Hurry before you forget, go ask
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: your father. So he goes to his father, the son
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: the sacred masculine father, who am I? And he immediately
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: chastised him and says, my child, be very very careful
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: with that question who am I? For that is the
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: most important question we have as a soul. But that star,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: that soul was like us today, and gossipy can't keep
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: a secret. And soon there were four of them that
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: asked the same question, and that signals the beginning of
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: the journey of the souls through the dark rift of
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: the Milky Way to hear our. Stories say that were
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: guided by Venus, the Morning Star to get here, the
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: planet next to us. And when those souls landed, it
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: was an all watery planet, and they took the form
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: of four animals, and this story is basically referred to
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: as the Earth Diver. Meth and his variations almost crossed
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: all the tribes and they took the form of four
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: animals and depending on the tribe, but ultimately one of
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: them dives down into the deep waters and brings back
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: up the clay in the earth, and Turtle was the
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: first one that asked that question. The soul said, who
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: am I? I felt so bad that gotten the other
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: ones into this new mess, this new conundrum that asked
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: to put the clay on its back, and then that
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: became Turtle Island. And that's the story of this continent
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: and us coming to this world and the first humans
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: that came out of the water. After that, that's the
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: beginnings of the cosmology, the beginning before the beginning. That's
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: the story that's in the braiding sweet grass. Yes, because
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: we all have different variations. As you told that story,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: I was, I was, I thought that's where you were going.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: But Robbins tribe, the Potawatoms, there have a variation of
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: woman who fell from the sky sky woman. So is
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: it fair to say and just just so unclear that
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: then cosmology could be like an indig this religion based
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: absolute stars. Absolutely, okay, And so we have all those variations,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: which is another function of time. Those stories. That story
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: in his origin comes out of Siberia, so there are
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: there's similar there's a similar narrative or that that's from
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: people there. Yes, and then you can measure the variations
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: of the story based over time to try to get
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: an understanding of the antiquity of that story. Huh. From
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: an an indigenous perspective, stories or everything the watery planet. Um,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: that's very common, right, and even in even even in
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: like the Judeo Christian tradition, it's common. There's there's an
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: element of it with the with the notions of the
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: great flood like a watery planet. Huh. There were a
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: lot of parallels that I saw in so the book.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: We discussed this earlier. Taylor and I did about this
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Brady sweet Grass brook uh Robin, how do you say
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: your last name? Yeah, but I saw a lot of
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: parallels between. I mean, you didn't have to stretch it
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: very far to see parallels between that story at some point,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: and you know the Book of Genesis, I mean there
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: was a tree that had that people were punished for
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: for eating the fruit of and different things. But just yeah,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: it was it was two different trees, the Tree of
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Knowledge and the Tree of life. So back to the cosmology,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: the tree of life is what's at the centerpiece of
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: an understanding of a of a physical attribute of that.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: So we have the great Tree of Life, and it
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: is the axis moondy of the universe. And in its
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: branches is the upper realm, ruled by the thunderbans, the thunderers,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: and there and their messengers, the thunderbirds. And then the
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: roots of the Tree of life is the lower watery realm,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: which is inhabited by water spirits. Chief amongst them is
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: the underwater panther or the underwater serpent Cherokees we call
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: her Uktana, but parallels to stories from esso America for sure.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Kukl Khan quite uniquotal etcetera. But these are the things, Steve,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: that I get immersed in. The stories and storytelling captivating
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: to most people, children and adults alike. I've discovered if you,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: when you look at your history, the history of your people, Um,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: is it puzzling to you that that people like us,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: like Western Europeans. Is it puzzling to you that, uh,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: we're probably that were more drawn to those questions as well,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: like more drawn to the history, the deep history of
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: of this continent, then we are to the deep history
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: of our own continent, where our where our ancestors came from. Like,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: I really have no desire, you know, I don't have
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: I don't wonder about Western Europe. I don't wonder about Paleolt.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: I mean a little bit, but I don't like pay
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: attention to the Paleolithic tradition there. But I'm very interested
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: in the deep history here. But I could, but I
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: could see that you would view it as you might are,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: you might view it as like not my history at all,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: But but somehow I feel like it is. Is that
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: is that troubling to you that I feel that way? Now,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: It's not troubling at all, because I think that's so
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: important Um. One of the reasons that I want to
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: come and share on podcasts like this and to learn
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: from others is to have a deeper understanding of what
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: is the provenance of this land. It's fascinating all those
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: stories that I've just shared. I mean, yeah, truths is
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: greater than any fiction. The stories that happened at these places,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: the stories that were told about the the giants and
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: the thunder beings and all these different aspects of indigenous cosmology.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: It gives a provenance to this country that most people
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: don't realize is there, but it belongs to us all
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: a greater understanding what was happening here. There's lessons in history,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: things to be gleaned and to be learned. Um. Perhaps
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: even with with Kahki and some of the others, there
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: are forebodings of what happens with large urban experiments. Can
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: you can you talk the giant people? I have heard,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: um Bigfoot enthusiasts here. We talked about this before this ship.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: Bigfoot enthusiasts like that story, and they will sometimes say, oh,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: you can find evidence of Bigfoot in the mythologies of
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: Native Americans, because they talked about a race of giants.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: Has to have been Bigfoot's um Do you do you
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: know I'm voicing I'm voicing, you know, a fringe gentleman
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: of you know, I'm voicing the perspective of a fringe
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: element of big Foot enthusiasts. Only two. I'm only doing
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: that to invite you as a way of inviting you
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: to um offer any insights. Is it a metaphor? Like?
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: Is it a metaphor for something? What was the rate
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: like in the mythology or in the cosmology? What was
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: the race of giants? Do I mean? Does it refer
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: to a specific thing? Um? You find these stories throughout
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of the tribes um back home in Nebraska.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: But we say niska, that's the Omaha word for the
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: Platte River means flat water. But niska, that's a that's
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: a beautiful word. Yeah, and uh, I think it was
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: called the plant or the Missouri River, which we call
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: ni shuta, which you means smoke on the water and
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: what and all the all the Plains tribes give it
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: the same name in their language. But what it refers
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: to is before that river was damned up and they
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: had this powerful, you know, kinetic motion, especially in the
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: winter back when winters used to be really cold. Then
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: you would see this frozen fog bank that would go
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: above the water. And that's what it means, smoke on
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: the water. And uh, we have lots of stories around
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: around that. I want to I want to get I
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: gotta interrupt. So there's two questions. There's gonna be three
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: in a second. Well, I want to hear him talking
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: about Bigfoot, but also want him to answer your question
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: about where the giants came from. Yeah, but I want
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: him to say to say a whole sentence in in
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: your native language. I don't care what the hell you
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: could say something bad about me. I just want to
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: hear because I like hearing the river names. Well, I
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: would be truly remiss if I didn't introduce myself properly.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: There you go, who abe that wannga They we weat
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: the Bugisha hunger shanu in case of a long la
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: uma habbedy. So that's our standard introduction that we would
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: say in our tribe about the name that we carry.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: So aw that wanda. That means that we're all related.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: So whether it's white man in Indian or from whatever
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: part of the world you're from, you would mean this
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: is meeting a new person. So you could say we're
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: all one. Say it again, um abe that wanga they
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: you're not off the hook on big Foot. We're gonna,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: We're gonna okay. So that's so that's the beginning of
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: the greeting. And so that that translation. I carry the
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: name of Bison Maine of the earth and Bison clan
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: of the people that move against the current. That's what
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: Omaha is. The corruption of um Maha means the people
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: that move against the current. What it had to do
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: with are brother and sister tribes within our language family,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: and at a certain point we separated from each other,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: probably in the diaspora coming out of the Great Lakes region.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: Um those movements probably referred to our separation along the
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: Mississippi or the Great Old Man people to move against
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: current because they because this is a group of people
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: that traveled up river. We went up upstream is another
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: yeah Oumaha. And then you have um no ship that's
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: pretty good. Clapha um down from your neck of the woods.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: We say Gogapa. It means the downstream people. And then
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: you have the o sage means children of the middle waters.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: So all of those I think Kore and I were
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: talking abous about this before, but so many American place
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: names are indigenous. Now we have we transliterated into English
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: and say, oh sage and quapol. I like the word
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: you used corruption, it's powerful. My kids are I was like,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: why is that play's name that? And I's doing like
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: I'll probably some guy's name. Yeah, I mean like go
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: through them. I mean it's like it's just the states, cities,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: every states, the cities Dakota, Missouri Highway, Kansas, Oklahoma. Cancer
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: is interpretation of what we say conz A, which means
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: the wind people. They were a clan of a larger
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: group of of our of our language family. But it
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: goes on and on and on. I assume Michigan, Wisconsin.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: It is kind of interesting though, that there was some
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, want or interest in not
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: completely just renaming it and calling the next next state Steve.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: And then the after that well they well they did
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: that up in the northeast. Sure certainly did. But it's right.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, some of some of those names would have
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: been more European, like New York. But then the further
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: they got, these territories were more wild and I know
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Arkansas is a is a native name, and I've heard
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: the name translates into downstream people. I don't know if
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: you have heard that before, but anyway, I'm just guessing. Uh,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: I grew up in Moskegon County. That's for sure indigenous, right,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: My my understanding. There's a huge swamp there and it's
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: it's like the Moskegan River delta, but it's the Moskegan
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: River flowing in the delta that the Moskegan River makes
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: as it flows into Lake Michigan. So my understanding. Um,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: and you know the way everybody explains it, it's a
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: it's a big swamp. Okay, look, swamp area whatever. But
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: just to kind of give you this is I'm not
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: gonna tell you anything new. Here's a joke that would
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: be tray affect when I was a kid. It would
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: be that, oh, uh, an Indian was water skiing and
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: his ski broke here and he said mosquegone. Mhm right. No,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: it'd be like no, I'm just I'm like Taylor's laughing, yeah,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: but I'm not. I'm not telling them. I don't think
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: he's going to be shocked that people tell Indian jokes
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: that are derogatory. I mean, I didn't make damn thing up.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's like a thing people. It's like
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: a stupid ass thing people say. And why is that
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: do you think? I don't know. Wow, why do people
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: like the blittle things? Maybe they don't know what the
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: real history is? Yeah? Why why do you? Yeah? Why
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: do you like to I can't explain why people like
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: the bluttle stuff. I don't know why you want to? Like?
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: Why would you want to diminish something? I don't know.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: That's that's why I wrote the chapter in my book
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: manuscript called the Under's Dilemma of America. Why do we
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: have to create stories like Thanksgiving when in reality, the
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: majority of what we think about is Thanksgiving is a
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: lie and definitely belittles Indian slave trade in in New England,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: the Mohegan Pequot Wars. There's so much history that we
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: just don't know about. But it's much more convenient, much
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: more easy to say, oh, well, there's the pilgrims and
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: they were saved by the local Native Americans. A hell
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: of a party, had a hell of a party. The
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: only time Thanksgiving was used was the Governor Winthrop I
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: believe was his name after he sent a military party
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: to slaughter over a hundred different tribal warriors, and when
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: they came back, that's when they had to Thanksgiving. So
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: when you juxtapose reality versus the myths that we come
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: up with. But this is also part of the myth
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: of in Columbus selled the ocean blue. I don't know
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: if they still teach that to children, but most of
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: us know that right. As a parent who's raising kids
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: in America, UM, I don't know how. I don't know
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: how helpful it is to them to I'm not really
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: interested in bringing them up in an atmosphere of self loathing,
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: that it's doing them, that it's setting them up in
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: a good path. So I think that there are complexities there.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: There are astounding complexities to history. But I think that
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: the way we communicate with kids is parable, sure, right,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: And if if you find there's if there's like there's
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: a value in love of your place, there's value in
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: love of your country, there's value and love of your
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: fellow man. I think that it's it's like, but there's
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: a pretty good argument to be made for giving them
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: when they're young, somewhat of an optimistic vision, right. I
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: think that that's probably that this is not like the
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Moskegan stupid ship like that, just communicating to them there's
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: something here that you should that you probably want to
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: take care of, right. But I mean they could be
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: equally enthralled with the story of total saving this planet.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know this story other than Sturgil Simpson mentions
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: it and turtles all the way down, but you know
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: it now I've shared it with you. I'm gonna read off.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna read up on it. I don't get the
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: detail wrong, Listen, I'd love to telling that story. What
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: I think you're saying, it's just that we we've distill down,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: We're distilled down our history into very simple, like you know,
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: just flash points that are easy to communicate. So I mean, like, yeah,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: humans want to live in the now and sometimes want
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: to look back the past and just see it as
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: this like thing that could be subbed up in one sentence.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, Columbus was able to market the
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: world marketed that Columbus found this place. So that's what
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: we still teach. I mean, I think what you're I
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: hear what you're saying. It's like it's easy to simplify
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: things like really small and those things then become wrong.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: I mean because you can't tell complex stories with very
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: simple things that you can't sit them all down and
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: be like, you know, there's an arguments be made that, Um,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: there's no free will, right that everything's spelled out already.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: You're either gonna be the way you are or not.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: Nothing you can do about it. Um, people are horrible,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: good luck. That's I don't think that's not a good
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: way of going about it. Why is it one or
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: the other? And also what does it say to our
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: collective consciousness if we exist on myth and continue to
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: be okay with that? I don't know. Well, I think
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: I think the thing is is that now because of
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: the world we live, and we can find the accuracy
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: and stories so here and you talk about Thanksgiving helps
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: you know, and I've heard this before, but like that
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: that helps us understand probably the way that we've been
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: marketed well for sure been marketed to and so we
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: can bring out more truth inside of the way that
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: we exist from here on out, just because we know
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: and I think you can find more separation between the
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: optimism that you're talking about, Stephen, Like these bastardizations that
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: are harmful and have implications today just stuff we tell
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: our kids, and the truce shall set them free. Right Yeah, yeah, no,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: I told you. Listen, what I'm saying is like, what
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: I'm saying is probably like I'm not doing a good
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: job of articulating it. I'm just trying to um. I'm
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: expressing the idea that there are certain sort of legends
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: and mythologies that are that are told because they're effective. Sure,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: and I don't think people sit around weighing out weighing
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: them out too thoroughly. I guess that. Okay, It's it's
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: much easier to have history tied up in a pretty
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: little bus, right. It's like the blitz Creek hypothesis, Right,
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: It's much easier to believe that there was one event
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: that killed all the all the megafauna, right. Yeah, you know,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: m I was surprised to see that Wikipedia still is
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: is really hangs onto the blitz Creek hypothesis. Academia has
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: moved on. Wikipedia's doubled down. It's like the burying straight theory.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: That's and there's a lot of work been done. Graham
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: Hancock did a wonderful job and America BC no America before.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: But he goes into this whole understanding of what you
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: have an American anthropology around around the Clovis First people's
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: and how anthropology just held onto that held onto that.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: Academics careers were destroyed whenever they found something counter to that,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: and so you have this whole um uncovered history, this
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: provenance of America that may go back a lot, a
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: lot longer than what most people are comfortable with. When
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: I started, when I first started dabbling in anthropology, just
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: like reading academic works, there was it was right around
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: when the Clovis First idea was falling apart, and there
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: were still people that held onto it, you know. But
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: that was kind of like that. That was a debate
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: that was half ring back then. But to get back
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: to we're supposed to get you, is there is there
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: a metaphor to be found in the Giant people? Like
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: what do you think that that meant? And I think
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: that they were giants, um they were a competing race
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: from our stories that Earthmaker made before us, and they
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: became they lacked humility and they were too pompous and
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: then ultimately depending upon the stories, but there's an incredible
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: place right outside of Omaha. The Skeety people to Panties
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: and the rickers. Then it changes a little bit based
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: on the dialect, but Paul Hook is what it's called,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: and it was the origin place for the Skiti people,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: and there was a number of the Council of the Animals.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Out of the five sacred sites, only one of them
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: is left, and that's Paw Hook. And from it it
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: was said that back in the time of giants and sacrifice,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: that was a very important place. And ultimately that's where
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: Earthmaker Creator decided to flood the earth to get rid
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: of the giants, and he bade all of the human
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: beings and the smaller animals to go underneath into the
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: Council of the Animals, and therefore they wrote out the flood,
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: and then they were led by yellow buffalo woman and
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: they came back at and emerged there. So that became
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: a very central place for a lot of the Plains people.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: They survived the flood, survived the flood by going underneath
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: the ground. And you have a lot of those types
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: of stories. Kaya was half those stories. There's biblical reference.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: The giants to the Anach and Genesis. Yeah, so that
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: that's a theme, but not the kind of giant that
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: Goliath was. Glass is the huge dude, wasn't he He
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: was a giant? Yeah? He am and I they weren't
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: all big he Yeah, he was a little bit of
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: a of a phenomen amongst its people. But I mean,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: I don't think they were all giants where they mean,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: but that that was the land of Canaan. Yeah. Is
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: there any do you think there's any chance that um,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: that there could be cultural memory of um they would survive,
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: like how many Neanderthal and years cultural memory that could
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: survive long enough to recollect interaction with Neanderthals. It's an
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: excellent question. But we find that legacy in our art,
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: the use of red ochre can be tied back to
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: the Neanderthals. And one of the hypotheses is who were
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: the Denisovans? Were they some remnant of this giant race?
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: We don't know, because that's different within my DNA than
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: everyone else here. So what was that? I do know
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: that there are some anthropological markers that make indigenous people's different,
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: one of which is our teeth. And that's why I
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: was so important about what was found in those caves
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: in Siberia. But we have different types of teeth. The
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: main thing is we have shovel shaped incisors, which is
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: the only dominant genetic trait. But on the back side
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: of front teeth or scooped um, we have the moo
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: Mongolian spot that comes out of Asia, and I brought
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: all my DNA stuffs the Mongolian spot. It's a little
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: blue spot on the behind of babies and sometimes on
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: the back or the stomach, and it's just a genetic
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: marker we don't know and it fades and its m
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: But we do have different DNA. We have different mitochondrial
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: DNA as well. So the stuff that I when I
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: originally got into the DNA stuff, when I was doing
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: all my all my research for the book, was really
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: trying to understand are we different and national geographic who
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: seems to be a central player and all this. Have
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: done an incredible job of trying to understand some of
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: this ancient past and from the DNA perspective. They started
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: this project called genomic which was trying to isolate the
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: fact that we have different haplo groups for our mitochondrial DNA,
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: So I have some of those markers that would be
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: the dominant European ones. But then we have this motochondrial
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: DNA that's very very different from others. What when you
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: did so when you did a DNA test or what? What? What?
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: What are the services have you done? I did the
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: genomic project and then more recently, I think I did
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: the ancestry one. So the genomic project was you were
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: actually involved in research project? Yeah? I mean my my
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: DNA was a part of that study. That's why I
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: signed up for it. I see, So what can you
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: What did it tell you about you? Um? One, that
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: I had similar part of Neanderthal, which is probably my
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: Irish heritage. Maybe some of the French or German I
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: have in there as well. Um. But it also shows
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: that I've got I've got to pointe of Neanderthal and
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: one point seven DENI SOBN but probably most evidence through
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: teeth and other other common amongst Native Americans and s
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: is jealous? Are the percentages again two point three? You
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: think that you have more Neanderthal? Remember told me I
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: was a little light on Neanderthal man, But it goes
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: back to your lighter average. I mean these. I guess
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: it's natural within human beings to feel like one type
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: of hominid is superior to the others. But I think
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: it goes back to that core value that we have
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: a indigenous people that were all related. So whether it's
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: Homo sapien, Homo sapien, or Neanderthal or Dennis Ovan, all
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: part of humanity as we now know it. But when
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: you okay, has there is there enough information out there
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: that you can get into Like my understanding when they
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: do these projects is it kind of depends on how
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: many samples are taken. So there's some spots on the
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: planet that there just hasn't been enough people. They haven't
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: done their genomes, haven't done their genetics, and so some
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: spots are hazy. Some spots like what like Western Europe
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: um a lot of participants, a lot of people have
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: done it. You start getting these really detailed pictures, but
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: you talk to people who um whose ancestors came from Asia,
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: and it's like not as satisfying when you when you
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: do it there because it's not filled in in a
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: detailed sense, and you'll be told like, oh, you're kind
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: of generally asian um. When you what with yours. Are
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: they like, where is that at now? Are they able
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: to talk about region within what's now the United States?
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to ever be able to
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: get that granular, because tribe is a fluid thing, you know.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: But I was really surprised. I mean, I know that
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: I'm majority Native American, but the formal test, both of
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: them came out around the same percentage um. But what
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: I was surprised at was based off one of the
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: tests that there was a lot more Peruvian bloodlines, and
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: in both tests was consistent percentage of descendency from the
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: I knew of Japan, the indigenous people's Japan, Chinese for sure, Peruvian.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: And the other one that was a big curveball was
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: the nearly quarter percent that said I was Russian and
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: then I was related to toll story. Can you track back?
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: Can you track back? You're encouraging as a writer, so
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: that's where I got there. You track back in your
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: history where some of the stuff comes from. I mean, like,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: could you say, like my great grandfather was like a
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: Caucasian guy. I mean, I I finally found people who
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: know more a lot, but like your mother and father
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: were members of the tribe. I mean, I mean, I
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: can go back, you know, fourteen seventeen generations on almost
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: both sides, but you're and there's nothing along those lines.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: But what when I finally did talk to somebody who
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: knew what they were talking about a lot more than
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: I did. Was probably had to do with this mixing
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: of Siberian and Eurasian bloodlines. And I went back and
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: forth for a time before they came over to Siberian.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: Arguably some of them maybe even came back. And oh
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: so you don't think that was that was anything recent,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: like in the last couple of years. Yeah stuff, Yeah,
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: oh wow, Okay, can I make a correction real quick?
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: I said, anac in Genesis is Nephilim. Nephilim where the Yeah, yeah, irrelevant,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: But I just had to clear that uppilum. And I've
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: been fascinated with all of you know, the understanding of
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: what happened in Messo America, what happened in South America.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: I've been really enjoy reading about those British explorers who
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: finally went down to South American and tried to find
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: the Lost City of z Colonel Faucett. It's a fascinating story,
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: but behalfs of the Royal Geographic Society. He went down
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: in the early dred and began to explore in his
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: hypothesis was there was the lost city of Zad, which
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: was a complex society in South America. Charles Man in
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: his book he talks a lot about um terra Pretta
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: and some of the agricultural practices and involving the use
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: of biochar and how to take very alkaline soils and
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: turn them into you know, productive things. And these are
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: ancient but much many years after pots disappearance into the Amazon,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: no one knows every what happened to him. That many
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: people try to go and find out through the use
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: of technology. We've we're finding all these ancient cities now
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: and more and more evidence that population numbers were a
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: lot bigger. But that's the first point in having any
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: of these conversations about ancient America is how many people,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: how many bison, etcetera. All tho has become really interesting topics.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: But what happened to them? Why did they leave or disappear?
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: What was the role of disease in genocide? How much
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: of it was purposeful? I think all those things are
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: important for people that understand so that the very least
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: we don't repeat those bad portions of history. Tribal people's
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: have them a prophecy. It's primarily in the plains, but
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: it's all around. That has to do with the seventh
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: generation prophecy. And ultimately you can look to sad symbolic
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: events in history, such as the original Battle of Wounded Knee,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: which was putting down of very powerful um the Ghost
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: Dance religion and in its profit well voca up around
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: up around Pine Ridge there and I believe it's in
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, but it is such a horrific event
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: that many viewed it as the breaking of the great
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: sacred hoop of the Suian people's And at that point
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: it was said that that was the beginning of very
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: tough time for indigenous peoples, that for six generations we
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: would suffer greatly, and Lord knows we've suffered, and that
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: with the markings then, um, I think you wrote about
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: this something too, stories about white buff low calf woman,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: that that she would return, and so we had those
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: markings and actuality in the physical man manifestation of white
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: buffalo calfs. So we had the first one in two
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: thousand one, and by two thousand and seven there were
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: four of them, and that means that that was the
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: time for the return of the seventh generation. I had
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: actually been right in a scholarly paper with a legal
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: scholar who also happened to be a the coach to spiritualist,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: and she's the one who explained it to me at
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: the time. But with the coming of the fourth White
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: Buffalo Calftain, all of the children born after that would
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: be of the seventh generation. So for those tribal people's
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: that generation would be the ones that would lead them
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: to those nations to stand tall again and be and
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: be proud. For all those children that are non Indigenous
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: that were born after that time, ram they're there also
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: part of the seven generation, and as non Indigenous, they're
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: going to be the population that's finally ready for our knowledge.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: And it was pointed out to me that I was
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: a part of the sixth generation, that I was supposed
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: to be a teacher and then I didn't know all
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: my stories and she was right. So that began that
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: joint that journey for me from going from um general
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: person in Corporate America trying to find out who am
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: I where do I come from, so then when it
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: comes time, I can tell these stories and the hopes
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: that it's gonna make the world a better place. Can
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: you explain to people the uh, the Goal's dancers, because
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: there there was two. There was kind of like two
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: occurrences where someone tried to unite UM. What was the
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: one like related to the you know he was he
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: was from Indiana, right, clumsy, Right, there's yeah, there's two
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: two separate stories. He well, like a person a sort
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: of profit that wanted to unite people that would try
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: to like patch up and inform an allegiance of confederacy
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: to to fight. And then the ghost dance profit or
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: teacher or whatever profit he was similar to he was
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: trying to he was he was trying to communicate with
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: the like with a bunch of historical enemies to bring
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: to buying them together. It was derivation out of the
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: potawatam Um Dreaming Dance Society and UM. Ultimately he had
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: these visions where UM the followers could, through dance and song,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: could put themselves into a mental state where they could
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: see the other side. And it was their hope that Um,
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: despite what had happened with the loss of the bison
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: and our and our traditional life ways, that the old
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: world would come back, and that's what they were they
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: were seeking. Of course, it was seen by the United
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: States Militarius insurrection and they were summarily attacked and killed
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: up at Wounded Knee and the prophet was killed at
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: that point. What was the second Like, when did the
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: second Wounded Knee massacre? That was the eighteen nineties, right, No,
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: that was in in the nineteen seventies. That had to
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: do with the Red Power movement and the American Indian Movement.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: Oh no, no, okay, almost, I know. I thought that
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: there was like two Wounded Knee things in close proximity,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: not that I'm aware of. The first one was pretty
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: brutal and tribes didn't respond back from that till many
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: many years later, and then wounded He became a became
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: a focal point in the seventies, Yes, of the American
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: Indian Movement. That's after they became militant, for sure. One
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: other questions, Oh yeah, no, no, we covered off a
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: big foot. No we didn't. You hadn't heard him talk
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: about bigfoot yet. I don't think he's a big foot enthusiast,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: a big foot. No, he has something to say. I'll
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: tell you nasty, because Bigfoot is not an American icon.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: It's a tribal icon. All the tribes we have Bigfoot,
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: the omahas um Hinska Bay. It means the hairy race
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: of people. Really all the tribes, many of the tribes,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: especially up in the Pacific Northwest. I mean it's it
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: is a spiritual part of their formation. Um. They some
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: of the clans up there are even responsible for protecting
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: the anonymity and the sacredness of them. That has become
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: something out of American popular lore. But that's what, that's what.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: That's what he said. That helped because we were walking
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: up here, he said, what do you think about Bigfoot?
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: And and he told me, he said, Bigfoot is not
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't belong to America. I mean, you know America as
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: in like white European culture that dominates America. He said,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: it belongs to the tribes. And then he I don't
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: want to take your I don't want to tell what
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: you're going to say about that he's a spirit being.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: But I just did. Many of our of our stories
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: say that there's a relationship between them and the sky people,
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: and so Um, perhaps they can move between different planes
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: of existence. I mean, who were we to say what
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: is real and what's not, what's happening in the spirit
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: world and what's happening here. Many say that they move
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: in between those those those realms. That's been adopted. That
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: attribute has been also adopted by bigfoot researchers to explain
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: why you cannot catch them on a trail camera because
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: they they they like, move out of they move into
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: the ethereal realm and can't be photographed. Do you believe
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: Steve No, Mitch Edward, the comedian mit Chedward, thinks they're
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: just blurry and it's not the photographer's fault. I think
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: it's a barrel two legs. See what I what what
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: I don't? I don't know to me what what he
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: told me gave me. I mean, it just gave me
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: another perspective that that explains this. And I knew that
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: that bigfoot would have been connected to Indigenous Americans, but
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: I guess I didn't know realized that it was something
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: sacred and that it was something that's really valued. You know,
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: that's kind of been you know, hijacked in a way
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: because I told him, I said, no, I don't believe. Well,
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: this is before a story. I said, No, I don't
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: believe in bigfoot. I think people are seeing bipedal bears
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: that have had wounded front feet and are walking on
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: their back legs, which we know for a fact happens.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: That happens, for sure happens. But no, it just expanded
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: this idea because I mean, the bigfoot or the the
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: hairy hominid like bipedal lore goes so deep. I mean,
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: it's bizarre how deep it goes. I mean, we were
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: talking about the co Yukon. The co Yukon have a
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: very distinct bigfoot like character that is up in Alaska.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: Every tribe does. Yeah, and we're all complex and deep
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: and rich. So I know in southeast Alaska some of
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: the groups have a there's an otterman, which Hida and
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: Simpscian people have mentioned to me. M. The co Yukon
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: have the woodsman. They call him woodsman, kind of a wilding, right, yeah,
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: and it's not exactly a bigfoot, but that's kind of
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: how they treated it. And they said they were supernatural.
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: They could move in and out of you know, being
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: able to be seen and whatnot. But they were almost
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: like a feral human that was real, Harry. And then
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: of course you have the counterpart to the giants. We
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: all have stories of little people as well, and there
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: very powerful race and they move in and out of
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: this existence. The story that I always like to tell
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: about it I'm I'm I'm a descendant of Baptist Dorian.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: That's the French part of my Omaha bloodlines. And he
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: was an interpreter for Lewis and Clark. And whenever Lewis
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: and Clark met with the Iway and the Otto at
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: what is now Council Bluffs, Iowa, which is where I live,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: h the Omahas were not present because they were on
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: bison hunt. But eventually some of the translators and explorers
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: went along, and my ancestra was a part of it.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: And they got up near Vermillion, South Dakota, and Lewis
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: and Clark wanted to dispatch all of the all of
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: the tribal representatives to go and to explore um. This
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: um they basically a rock mounted spirit lake, and the
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: Omahas dug in their heels and said, uh, we ain't going.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: And they asked him why, and they said, because we
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: have a story. Uh. There were a number of our warriors.
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: There were three hundred of them that were on a
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: horse rating trip, which was not honorable, and on their
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: return going past uh the rock edifice they're at Spirit Lake,
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: that the little people came out and attacked them and
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: killed over half of them. And so our stories about
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: giants and little people. All the tribes have stories like that.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: I only know the ones that I've been told, but
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: they go so far back into our history that there
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: has to be something to them. But I mean, there's
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: there's there's parallels with the Gaelic cultures and little people, etcetera.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: The mound builders. You find very strong similarities between the
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: carnes and rock mounds of northern Europe and what you
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: see in the Mississippian plane as well. So for me,
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: it's just a lot of questions back to that whole
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: tenant of we're all related, but how did all these
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: things rise around the same time and then and then collapse?
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: You know? I think when I when I hear you
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: talk this kind of a broad general statement about here
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: and you talk, is that we so bad want to
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: be able to explain everything that we know, and in science,
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: science is by very essence only able to discern, to
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: understand what is physically observable. I mean, that's the definition
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: of science. Like science does not delve into, you know,
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: things that are metaphysical. And and what I like about
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: hearing some of these, like ancient deep time stories of
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: indigenous people is that we really like to think that
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: we know everything and we just don't. I mean, I
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: did an interview with one of the top wildlife biologists
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: in the country that deals with with white oak trees
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: and acorns, and he when I started drilling down questions
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: about white oak trees, like he was like, Clay, you
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: don't have to dig very far to you realize science
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: does not know all the answers, even about something so
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: simple and not that seemingly important. And just as I
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: hear you talk about even qualms about how long humans
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: have been in North America, and you know, are are
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: the archaeology we know? You know, says X, you know
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: we've been here this long. But and that's just the
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: best that we've got. But your stories say that it
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: goes way back further than that. And uh, and I
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: just feel like we really don't know, and it's okay
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: for us to say we don't know, and it's okay
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: for us to say that the measurements of science do
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: have limitations. Just back to the field of anthropology and
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: its separation from folklore, because that was the scientific part
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: of anthropology, which says we have to have physical evidence
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: for everything, and it ignored folklore and it was only
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: until the last ten years or so. That was one
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: of the works that really inspired me to start my
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: book was reading Tim poc Tat's work on on kah Kia,
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: and he was the first mainstream anthropologist to bust out
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: of the mold and say, hey, we need to we
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: need to look at that tribal stories here to help
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: figure out and that's that's how we come up with
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: the stories of ostracizing people that have spoken against it.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: You can look back a thousand years and find that, right.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: So ye, stories for everything. Still, let me ask you
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: how something. We've had this debate on and off over
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: the years, and I just like to get perspective on it.
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: Many of the earth mounds have been ransacked, Okay, Like
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: you have a term like pot hunters, right, so people
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: that would just go dig up caves, dig up um.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: It starts with arrowheads. Yeah, Well that's why I'm going
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: so people would dig up caves, people would dig up
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: effigy mounds, people dig up cities, haul off the stuff
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: that they thought was a value and and and destroy
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: it from an archaeological perspective, and then desecrated from religious perspective. Say, uh,
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: let's put that at it an extreme, Okay. At the
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: other end is you're out till in the field and
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: up pops a broken arrowhead. Okay, and you put that
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: arrowhead in your pocket because you're thinking until this field
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: all the time. I just kicked it up my field. Yeah.
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: So two questions for you, Um, what's your take on that,
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: on that impulse? And then I want you to judge
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: that impulse. Well, there's two different kinds of people in
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: the world, right, There's people who want to lump everybody
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: into two groups right right. The the the analogy that
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: I thought was interesting at this at this point was, Um,
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: if we all walked up and found a wallet and
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: there was money in it, half of us are going
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: to take it and give it to someone to of
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: it back, right. The other half's gonna take take the
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: money pocketed and to the wallet. Yeah, that's probably all right.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: So I think I think the same thing, right, But
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: it goes to how we think about objects that we
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: don't understand. Arrowheads would be one of those. On the
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: one end of the extreme is you know people loved
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: to collect arrowheads, Um, my dad did. I've got his
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: collection and at home, your father did that. My dad did,
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: and he loved it, and he like he actively hunted arrowheads.
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: He did, and he gave them, gave them to me.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: And so I understand that. At the same time, I
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: know that what is in that act? Why is that
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: so important? Philosophically? When you're average American is walking somewhere
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: and sees this arrowhead, what is it that compels them
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: to want to pick it up and to take it
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: for their own. Some may admire the beauty and the
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: history as it is and was and says that's pretty powerful.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: And maybe if we leave it in the ground, maybe
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: this was an important place. Maybe that arrowhead told the
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: story of how these people lived. Maybe it explains the
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: time period of when that was made. Maybe it's tied
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: to an animal that was ancient that this arrow head
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: went into. There's so much that could be there. And
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: then there's the other perspective, is my land I found it,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: it's mine and perhaps or something will happen to it. Okay,
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: been there a long time by itself. That's good point.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: But I think you can't discount the rarity of it.
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: And that's what I mean compels a lot of people
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: to not leave it because I don't know, I mean,
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: did they want it's magic for themselves? Yeah, exactly. I
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: was with some I was with some anthropologists who were
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: doing work in the npr A, so the National Petroleum
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: Reserve Alaska. What they were doing is the head of
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: oil exploration, which is probably inevitable. They were trying to
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: make a map of cultural sites. Um, because when they do,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: you know, e s a process and all the other
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: processes to go on to extract oil. There needs to
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: be an accounting of what might be destroyed, and it
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: would and the finding of cultural sites would impact where
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: you would build roads, put in wellheads, whatnot. Um, you're
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: in a place that you can't even it's so far
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: out you can't get a helicopter there on a tank
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: of gas. You gotta like take a plane and kick
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: out barrels of gas and then hop scotch from barrel
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: to barrel in a helicopter that's how like remote you are.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: But anyways, there's just stuff laying out. Man, it's been
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: sitting there thousands of years, like there's no one around
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: to pick it up. Hasn't been And I'm telling you,
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: those guys would photograph the actile points and they would
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: draw the projectile points and they would stick them back
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: in the moss. It was painful for me, painful. I
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: would have visions of coming back out and getting them.
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: I wanted him so bad. I don't know, man, it's
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: just like, because it's so cool, I'd be like, oh,
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: like every part of me. I mean, I would go
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: and revisit, Like I remember one time at camp, leaving camp,
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: walking down, not to take it, but leaving camp, walking down,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: getting it back out of the moss, looking at it
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: for a long time, sticking it back in the moss,
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: and just like yeah. They'd be like if I don't know, man,
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: Like if you put a boxing nerds out on the
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: ground and my kids found it, they'd be like, now,
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I can do with those nerds.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: It's very I can't explain it. Although there are a
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: lot of things in the natural world that do connect
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: us to you know, way back history. There's very few
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: things that are that physical that you can just look
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: at and hold and it takes you like, well, way back.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: It's not such a new go ahead. Actually, I want
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 1: to this one thing. It's a lot of things I
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: don't understand. I can tell you what it's not. It's
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: not meant as an act of disrespect for the person
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: to own that thing. For some and I want to
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: get the opposite. I think it's a it's a it's
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: a thing of like deep reverence curiosity about fascination with
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: the person that made that thing. Sure, but if one
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: takes that, you lose the context of where it was
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: and whatever science might be able to tell us about it.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: I want to bring that's a good point. I want
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: to bring up to serious things on this topic. So
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: that's on one end of the of the extreme. And
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: then you have in the wake of the passing of
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: the legislation to protect um try remains and funerary Objects
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: known as the Native American Engraves Repatriation Act in the
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: ninety nineties, and prior to that, you have the Archaeological
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: Resource Protection Act, and you have aberrations of this benign
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: mindset about things like arrowheads. And on this other extreme,
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: you have this event that happened with the National Park
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: Service at Effigy Mounds in Iowa and as the rise
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: of Nagpra and State of Iowa also passed an early
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: law saying that you know, if if there are skeletal
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: remains or funerary objects, and ultimately what became the language
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: of Native American Graves and Repatriation Act is anything that
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: is sacred needs to be returned back to the people.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: And what happened there was they had a number of
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: skeletal remains and the superintendent of the site believe his
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: name is Tom Munson, he was so frustrated with the
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: potential that these objects would be out of their collection.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: And I believe it was combination of twenty four different
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: human remains from different individuals that were on display, that
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: were on display at different points, and as this the
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: potential risk of this law taking them away from the
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: anthropological archaeological collection, he stole them and tucked him to
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: his house and then lied about it for years and
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: ultimately there had to be an accounting of it. But
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: we're talking about skeletal remains. What do you think what
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: was going on in his head, Um, I have to
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 1: take this so we don't have to give them back
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: to the Indians, and eventually everyone's going to forget and
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 1: then we can have them back. So you have this
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: unhealthy relationship between objects that have a tribal provenance and
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: what we would like to see happen to them, any
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: skeletal remains. There's an exception in the America's because of
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 1: archaeology and anthropology that science came in and says it's
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: okay to take Indian bones. There's been numerous examples of
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: cemeteries and that were damaged during construction, etcetera. They find
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: the white people bones and they bury them properly, and
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: the Indian bones go to the state archaeological societies. Ultimately,
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: it took enforcement of Nagpra to come in and to
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: convict him first keeping and stealing all those all those remains.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: The tribes were very upset about that and there was
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: no accountability of it. Even further and more political goes
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 1: to archaeological rich sites like um down in uh outside
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: of Blanding, Utah, and there was a raid that there
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: was twenty four individuals that were ultimately indicted and in
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: between them they had forty thousand objects that they had
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: illegally taken out of the ground, some of which had
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: provenance to six thousand BC pottery shards, human remains, funerary sandals, etcetera.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: And foremost of those was a doctor by the name
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: of James red And Uh. It was certainly viewed as
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 1: an over zealous overreach of the FBI and the Bureau
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: of Land Management, but the facts of the case are
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: still the same. There was over forty thousand objects that
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: were gotten in that sting. The economics of it is
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: what is mind boggling to me, because this is the
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: serious part about erahads, etcetera. Was of the two d
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: forty objects that they found there, they used an informant
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: um to try to lure these individuals who are illegally
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: trading them and fuelling the black market and Native American objects. UM.
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: I think they've spen around three thirty thousand, which averaged
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: around forty dollars per object for those two fifty. So
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: if we use that as a proxy and run the numbers,
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: then that collection which they hauled away from those twenty
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: four individuals, UH collection of forty thou would be over
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: fifty three million dollars. So this is one subset of
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: what happens with the black market trade around Native American objects,
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: which have been fetishized beyond the object and the provenance
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: into a horrible black market. So why would the individual
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: who finds the arrowhead or the pottery shard? I can
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: get a hundred bucks for this, And then it goes
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: on and on and on, Doctor Red and the informant
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: sadly committed suicide rather than face the charges. But one
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: of the end the informant killed himself. He did a
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: year a year later. And if you look at stories
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: on this, you're gonna find more stories about the overreach
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: of the federal government. But it certainly doesn't take away
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: from the fact that this was an illustration of the
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: huge black market around Native American objects, especially things that
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: are sacred, human remains, funerary objects, things that should be
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: sacred and left alone. So there's a serious side to
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: hunting objects. Oh, I get the serious side for sure.
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: And I think that you if you went and talk
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: to people, um just like pulled people who are hobbyists
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: you know about, they don't think they're doing anything wrong. Well,
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: you I think you'd find if you said like, hey,
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: you found human skeleton. What you do? I think, you know,
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: the fast majority of people would would recognize it, they
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: wouldn't take it, or they would tell someone or whatever,
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: you know. But I think people sort of spread it
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: out and a view the arrowhead isn't of significance or
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: it was. It wasn't purposefully placed. It was perhaps lost,
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: it was broken. It was just it was discarded and
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like someone putting something somewhere the same way
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: we might look at our own like we might look
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: at a cemetery. Um, Like I might look at the
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: cemetery that my ancestors were buried in and have a
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: very different feeling about it than I would if I found, uh,
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: like an old rusty pistol laying out in the woods,
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, yeah, I can dig up the graveyard,
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: but I just found old rusty pistol out in the woods.
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a home with me, you know. I mean,
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 1: like we we sort of hold these two like we
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: distinct these things, and we we we separate these things
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 1: out in our head. Um. I can't tell where the
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: line falls for everybody, but I think a lot of
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: people view their being some lines somewhere. It's the bone
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: bone of a human leave it alone. Well, I think
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: I think I really want some clarity from you, just
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: your personal opinion. Like, so obviously there are some legal
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: ramific I mean there there's legal boundaries that guide us,
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: Like obviously we can't mess with human bones. You can't
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 1: take any kind of artifacts off public land. So let's
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: go to private land. Um, if I'm on my land
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: and see an airhead, should should I pick that up?
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: Should Clay nucom pick it up? If you found a
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: wallet with bucks, would you pick it up or give
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: it back? I would, I would pick it up and
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: give it back. But but I don't. I just I'm
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: I'm just being totally honest with you. I'm struggling to
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: find the the complete Apples to Apple connection there. And
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: because I mean, what am I supposed to if I
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: find an airhead on my land? Am I supposed to
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: call the you know, the the o s Age, the
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: chucktaws that would have been there? And I'm would be
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: interesting for you to do that though, for you as
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: a landowner. And then that's one of the serious parts
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: that I'm hoping comes out of That's a good point
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: talks with people like me, is is that there's so
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: much more to the provenance of this land. You've said
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 1: that word. Can you tell me what that word means? Yeah,
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: I mean that there's a history. It's like in artwork
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: or in wine or whatever. It's it's the ownership history.
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 1: Ownership history, got it? Like you know, like some painting
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: comes up, you know, the provence. People are very interested
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 1: in its flow through times. So I'm Steve, you nailed
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: that one. According to Marriam Webster. Number one because I
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 1: had to Marriam Webster while we've been talking because he's
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: used it so many times. And the the first definition
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: is just straight origin or source. But then number two
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: is the history of ownership of a valued object or
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: work of art or literature. The reason it's really important
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: in paintings and antiquities is the more solid the provenance is,
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: the less worried you are that that it came that
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: it emerged out of somewhere as a phony. Yeah, Like
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 1: all you know is like it just came out of
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 1: the period, out of nowhere in Okay, let me ask
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: you this, Like, so I'm from western Arkansas, close to
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: where you're from originally, and there's a lot of airheads,
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: you know, at laddle points, spear points, a lot of
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 1: stone points everywhere. I mean, I'm convinced that they are
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 1: distributed across the landscape everywhere, everywhere. And so think about
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 1: this or this is just a thought pattern that I
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: would have, Like we have destroyed so much of the
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: earth surface through civilization, covered it with concrete, moved it
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: crops crops like we've we so and I'm okay driving
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: on a road that has destroyed Native American eraheads. Um,
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: But in my mule pasture where my mules tear up
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: the ground and they have trails of dirt that have
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 1: exposed the ground, I find some stone points. And that's
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: why I would ask you in it just a totally
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: heartfelt question. Is like when I when I pick up
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: a stone point that can out came off my place,
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: which I have I have seen many, I call my
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: kids and usually I'll call them out before I pick
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: it up if they're home, and say look at that.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: I'll say, the last human to touch that was planning
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: to cook his dinner over a fire with an animal
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: that he killed with that point. I mean, we it's
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 1: a moment, man, I mean it's just like, oh, look
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: at this, does that count for for some value? Like
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 1: what should I do with those? Well, I mean, what
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 1: would you do with them? That's a good question. The
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: example that I would point to was Steve's example of
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: finding a bison skull. You go on a journey and
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: you find out the two the true provenance of that
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 1: animal in its histories, and I reported it and you
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: reported it, but it's in my mouth. Yeah, after learning
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 1: all that I've learned, I would want to leave it there,
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: and at a certain point would want to introduce science
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: into it to see what we could understand about what
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: that piece was, Like, what period was it from, what
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: were they hunting, who was doing the hunting, Just a
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: lot of questions and hopefully layering into the history as
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: we know it from the object that's looking at it
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 1: on the ground, coupled with science and then a layer
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 1: of indigenous history or provenance into it, can only add
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: to the value of the history of the object. And
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: that's my whole point with all of this, is that
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: wherever you look across America, there's all these objects, there's
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 1: all this history. It's there for all of us to
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 1: understand and to help enhance our own experience as Americans
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: speaking of history. Now that we haven't speaking about anything
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: besides history, can you explain to everybody, UM, about the
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: Sacred Seeds Project. Absolutely. When I began to write the book,
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 1: became pretty apparent after doing a lot of research that
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: the rise of the Mississippian mound builder culture had a
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: lot to do with the food that they were eating.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: And around this the same time frame, actually a little
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: bit earlier, Um, one of my mentors in life, Dr
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: Dward Walker, is the chair emeritus of Anthropology see you Boulder.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: He began to watch some of the trends that was
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: happening with some of the big seed companies like Monsanto
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: cin Genta, and what they were doing in other countries
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: like the country of India, and ultimately I mean like
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: trademarking seeds and yes in intellectual property protection, but was
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: also displacing them of their indigenous seeds and getting them
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: their own contract bound genetically modified organism seeds and which
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: is basically what the American farmer does, um loose seeds
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 1: the corn that we see in fields as clones and
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: it's uh one small variation of corn compared to the
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: thousands of types of corn that were here before, and
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: so I began to study the Mississippian record, and basically,
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 1: where there was corn in abundance, there were people in abundance,
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: and where there was corn, there were people, there was life.
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: And so from a cosmological perspective, that was the gift
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 1: of old woman who gave us seeds, and she gave
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: us corn. And all the tribes have different stories, but
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 1: it's so integral to our life ways and cosmology and
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: survival that you can't get around it. And so I
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: began my own journey of trying to find some of
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 1: these ancient seeds and what it meant. Um. We were
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: talking about about this before the podcast Johnny, about what
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 1: happens when of your ancestors are gone at some point.
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 1: Did it all happen at once, No, it was very devastating.
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: The examples in Nebraska was because of our proximity to
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: the middle of the country, the tribes there, we weren't
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: hit until the late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen hundreds.
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 1: It was a wave in late seventeen hundred, eighteen thirty,
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: eighteen sixty, and perhaps more waves, but the cumulative effect
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 1: was ninety present decimation rates. So it just may have
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 1: happened in one place and eight hundreds in the other,
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 1: but the net effect was not loss of knowledge for sure,
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: and so whatever we can do to find our way
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: back to that. What I found was starting with basically
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: thirty seeds from the Cherokee Nation Seed Saving Project and
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: planting those in the ground. There was something about understanding
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 1: that history, understanding how we planted, when we planted, why,
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: what shape, what seeds? How did you plant them? And
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: began to piece together this companion planting agricultural life ways
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: that was at the center center of how people survived
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 1: on this continent for at least two thousand years ago
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: and probably much beyond that. And by putting my hands
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: in the soil, by understanding the rhythms, talking with elder
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: is piecing together these things back I began to find
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: all these little tidbits, um we're supposed to plant on
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 1: the New Moon in May. There's a flower that grows,
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 1: the first one that that flowers, that's when you plant
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: other parts of the crop. When we left them, they
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 1: were dropped resistant seeds. And all of these things began
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: to impact how I felt, and I truly felt by
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: doing these acts by having a good heart, by doing
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 1: them for the right reasons, not for money. Back to
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: the whole notion of Robin's work around sacred economies and
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: sacred reciprocity, that it began to change me in a way.
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with inter generational trauma and the impact
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: of what colonization has had on indigenous peoples. And it's
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: it's rough, it's really hard. But on the converse side,
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: perhaps it has to do with epigenetic But by getting
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 1: my hands and the soil, by growing these plants, by
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: learning from them, that is healing me, and that it
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 1: can heal others. And we have a notion of blood
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 1: memory that somehow the ancestors through our DNA will help
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: us understand how to put this all back together. How
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 1: can we live better again? Um I look at the
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: landscape and I see things differently, after doing all this work,
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: after studying to be a teacher of the sixth generation.
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: I look across this landscape and I see the lands,
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 1: the land that once was. I see the land that
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: could be again. I see bison herds massive where everyone
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: could hunt them again. The food that they eat is
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: back again, switch grass, the bison grass, it's buffalo commons
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 1: um bing or action of all these things that we're
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: begin to see again things that were important to tribal peoples,
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 1: that are part of our clan systems. The role of
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 1: wolf and elk and bison, and how these this is
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 1: what the land here was meant two produced to sustain people.
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 1: But I look and see every tillable acre planted. I
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 1: see invasive species of cows everywhere. When those resources are scant,
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 1: who wins who has priority? The private landholder and the cow,
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: the elk, the natural order of things. These are the
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: things that I ponder. But ultimately that's what Sacred Seat
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: is about, is exploring those journeys going backwards in time,
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 1: but also in the age of monocrop cultures, potential failures
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: of those. Hopefully, someday people are going to be glad
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 1: that people like me find all these diverse seeds, all
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 1: these different types of corn um, that we have this
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 1: multiplicity of seeds, so that someday we're gonna be glad
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 1: that we have it, and not to mention just the
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 1: richness and the beauty that comes from all these different
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: type of seeds. Do you have somewhere of facility or
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: you know, how are you storing these things and sort
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 1: of codifying, you know, whatever knowledge is there. I brought
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 1: some men. This is um. There's corn bean and squashing here,
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 1: and this is um an ancient variety actually in my
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 1: studies to find all this stuff. Ultimately we found these
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: older collections and one of the things that I was
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: so curious to find was an Omaha rainbow flint, which
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 1: I couldn't find anywhere, and ultimately in the collections of
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 1: Carl Barnes, the Cherokee individual who, over the course of
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 1: his eighty five years here he collected over different types
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 1: of seeds across Holiday America's and some of them are
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 1: still viable when you're looking at some right here m hm.
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 1: So yeah, he has a I mean it's like a
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 1: jet black, deep purple, is red red, and those seeds
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 1: corn it's about like the size of like what what
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 1: you sort of considered to be a real big carrot.
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: They can be a lot bigger than that. That was
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 1: one of the smaller years. That's the only one that
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 1: wasn't shelled. But that is a ruby flint, blood blood,
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 1: blood red. What does it taste like? Uh, probably the
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 1: difference between commercial white rice and wild rice that you'd
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 1: find up around the Great Lakes just has a much deeper, richy,
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 1: earthy taste to them. Uh. You know, sweet is one variety. Um,
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 1: there's flower, there's flint, there's popping corn, and there's sweet corn.
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 1: And uh, I've never had much luck with growing the
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 1: sweet varieties because it's sugar and all things in nature
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: like sugar. So bugs, raccoons, they love it. So you
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 1: you these these seeds would have been, um, you don't
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 1: think they would have been hybridized with modern varieties. I mean,
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: as much as we can tell. I mean, they were
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: all turned into hybrids to you know, grow well locally,
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 1: which is basically what I'm attempting to do too. So
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 1: the the version that I originally had was a rainbow flint.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 1: And some of these seeds are more sacred to others.
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 1: So we were talking earlier about clan taboos, etcetera. So
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: amongst my mother's tribe, the Omaha um my clan is
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: responsible for keeping the sacred red corn. And now I'm
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: glad to say that we have our own varieties of
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 1: our sacred red back. One of the clan taboos is
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 1: that who is better to keep the red corn than
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: those that can't even touch it, which is why it
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 1: was in the bag and why I didn't touch it
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 1: because my clan is not allowed to touch that's one
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 1: of the clan taboos. What do you do with it?
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: I'm the protector of it. I mean, wouldn't eat that.
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 1: I can't touch it. I can't eat it. So your
• 2:18:23
  Speaker 1: clan would have grown it, and then what would they
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 1: have done with it? Shared it with the rest of
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 1: the tribe and every clan. So your clan is inside
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 1: of your tribe. That's okay, so it's a bigger tribe.
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: But your particular clan had this job. So that's like
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: that idea, that too. Better to keep it than the
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 1: one that can't touch it. A lot of people have
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: trouble with that. It's good man, get him he can't
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: eat it, right, It will be there when you come
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 1: looking for it will be So what would they have
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 1: used this corn for? Would they have grounded up? Could
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 1: you boil that and eat it like corn on the cob?
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 1: Like you could, but that's not the best way to
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: make it healthy. Historically, as one of the things that
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: we found from the anthropological record was that in its
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 1: raw form or ground and flint's have a thicker I'd
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 1: like to see that passing around. And there's also beans
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 1: there that are from the Cherokee side. The trailer tear
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: beans would literally sustained us. And those are indigenous squash
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 1: seeds there. So the three grown together. It's very important.
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 1: Corn takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil.
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 1: Beans put it back. Um. Squash keeps a lot of
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 1: things out of their deer raccoon raccoons love corn, and
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 1: so when you plant them all together, um, you have
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 1: a whole different perspective of growing that is more sustainable,
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 1: so to speak. Um, because when you look at the
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 1: differences between Euro American agg methodologies, one is put them
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 1: in rows and then switch out the fields, whereas ours
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 1: rarely moved, um except for like a tenure time period.
• 2:20:04
  Speaker 1: So I'm a little more sustainable from that perspective. But
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 1: it's just been my journey with these seeds too. To educate.
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 1: Going back to Robin's work on braiding sweet grass, she
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 1: had a dream after visiting I believe it was a
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 1: trading market in South America, and in her dream she
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 1: went and money was no good, only the sacred currency
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 1: of other things that you could trade, and my students
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 1: caught caught that for sure. And when I began Sacred Sy,
• 2:20:41
  Speaker 1: we looked at being a seed bank for money taken
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 1: on U. S. D A grants millions of dollars and
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 1: they finally said no, let's just leave it as it is,
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 1: and that's how it got the name. So rather than
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 1: trying to exploit the plant nation for corn here um,
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: I just utilize it to to share and to educate
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 1: and show people the beauty because this is not what
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 1: we think of a corner. This whole plant is red purple.
• 2:21:11
  Speaker 1: That's why I brought this in broken because you can
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 1: see the cob is red and the stock is red.
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 1: Stock starts green and then turned a deep purple red
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 1: and usually we'll make it about three quarters away before
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: the seeds are ready. So is there like this seed
• 2:21:26
  Speaker 1: with the organization, would there be a way for I mean,
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 1: are you distributing seed in any way to tribes or people?
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 1: I do um. When we first started, it was really
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 1: a matter of you know, I had just a handful
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 1: of different type of seeds and I've got so many
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: different stories of how seeds came to us. It was
• 2:21:44
  Speaker 1: one fun story. There was a guy that was um
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 1: descendant of the original homesteader. I want to say it
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: was fifth grade grandfather. I don't know what it was,
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 1: but he was a nice man and he had been
• 2:21:57
  Speaker 1: digging on his land and found a noble corn grist stone,
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 1: and he did the right thing, and he contacted did
• 2:22:05
  Speaker 1: his research and found out the tribe that it came from,
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 1: the Pawnees, and he contacted them and they told him
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 1: it sounds like one of ours. Why don't you come
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 1: on down and we'll talk about it. So he did.
• 2:22:20
  Speaker 1: Mind you, that's a trip from western Nebraska down to Oklahoma.
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 1: And when they got there there tribal historic preservation officer
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: pulled out one similar and says, yep, that looks like
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 1: one of ours. And in a true sacred reciprocity trading agreement,
• 2:22:41
  Speaker 1: they said, you know what, we're gonna We're gonna take this,
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 1: but we're gonna give you these being seeds here. And uh,
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 1: I can't I never remember if it's spotted like a
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: horse or painted like a horse beans, but they're absolutely
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: gorgeous and it's a bush bean and it's what the
• 2:23:01
  Speaker 1: Pawnees used, and uh I love it. I knew the
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 1: story is for real. When he told me all these things,
• 2:23:07
  Speaker 1: one they made him go down there. You know, there's
• 2:23:10
  Speaker 1: no put it in a mail package and let's talk
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 1: about it later. They're like, bring it down on this talk.
• 2:23:15
  Speaker 1: Once they got there, Once they gave him the seeds,
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 1: they said, no white man's ever had these before. Well,
• 2:23:25
  Speaker 1: he was afraid to plant them. So when he heard
• 2:23:27
  Speaker 1: one of my podcasts or stories, he contacted me and says,
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm afraid to screw this up. And of course
• 2:23:34
  Speaker 1: he's I said, well, wy don't you put him in
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 1: the mail And he'sa no, why don't you come get him?
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 1: I had to go get him. That's great. So there's
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 1: all sorts of stories with this project. This has been
• 2:23:44
  Speaker 1: really beautiful. It's an educational content to explain to people
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, keep finding all these different hybrids
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 1: that ultimately should be helpful to us as human beings. Someday.
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 1: Um I asked one question, got one. It's not an
• 2:24:01
  Speaker 1: Ottle baby question, but I'm wondering because we talked about
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 1: it while we're having our snacks before the podcast, and
• 2:24:08
  Speaker 1: we're talking about this the problem of smallpox that really
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 1: decimated population and thus decimated the oral history that was there,
• 2:24:17
  Speaker 1: So knowing that that's sort of like a chink in
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 1: the armor of this history cultural amnesia perhaps sure, and
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 1: maybe that's just a part of it, and that's and
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 1: then and then your people just accept that as a
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 1: part of being people that do oral history. But now
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 1: you as someone as in a historian, that you're gaining
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 1: all these stories and you're learning more and more. Are
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 1: you just going oral history or are you now writing
• 2:24:44
  Speaker 1: it down and trying to preserve it in another way
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 1: to prevent what's happened in the past. I think it's
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: important to look at a combination of both someone who
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 1: has written a book manuscript as Steve no It's just
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 1: got to be the hardest thing I've ever tried to
• 2:24:58
  Speaker 1: do and one of the coolest because that opens up
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 1: so many doors. But hopefully it's gonna be a combination
• 2:25:06
  Speaker 1: of both that I can in this research and in
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 1: these teachings that I can help others understand things that
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 1: we've missed. Just the understanding that there's a reason why
• 2:25:16
  Speaker 1: we forgot so many things, the impact of colonization, impact
• 2:25:21
  Speaker 1: of being acculturated into the American society, and there's a
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: ton of history there and federal policies and a lot
• 2:25:28
  Speaker 1: of us really sad. But regardless of that, you can
• 2:25:31
  Speaker 1: still own your own history. You can find the seeds
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 1: that you your people once eight and you can find them.
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 1: Um a quick nod to the land back topic. I
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 1: know that's originally how I was thought of m and
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 1: coming onto here. But one of the richest examples that
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 1: I can say not to do with public lands. It
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 1: has to do with private lands. And one of the
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 1: best examples I can point to was the author Roger Welsh,
• 2:25:59
  Speaker 1: who's a long time in front of the Pawnee, and
• 2:26:02
  Speaker 1: in the process of the anniversary of Lewis and clark Um,
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 1: he gave the Pawnee Nation some of his private land
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 1: out near Carney, Nebraska and asked them properly what they
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 1: wanted to do with it. It was a really powerful moment.
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 1: They said two things. They're traditional bands of chief. One
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 1: was we want to plant our corn, which they've done
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 1: and it's an incredible project, alcoholic and what she's done
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 1: there is amazing. And two they said they wanted to dance.
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 1: But ultimately that goes back to the call to arms. Um,
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 1: what can people do who are interested in this topic
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 1: and want to learn more at the very least, wherever
• 2:26:45
  Speaker 1: your family lands might be, UM, your provenance is important.
• 2:26:50
  Speaker 1: Perhaps your family has been there since homesteaders, maybe they've
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: been there for seven generations in clearing Ugal western Arkansas.
• 2:27:02
  Speaker 1: But if you go and look, you're going to find
• 2:27:04
  Speaker 1: a provenance so much deeper. And if you have it
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 1: within your heart to find those people that used to
• 2:27:10
  Speaker 1: live there welcome them back with open arms, then only
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 1: incredible treasures can await you and any American who wants
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 1: to explore the provenance of this land in history, and
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 1: it's only going to help us get along better and
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 1: to have a richer history of the lands that we share.
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: How do people find you specifically, if they're curious about
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 1: your book that you've worked on, if they're curious about
• 2:27:36
  Speaker 1: Sacred Seeds, if it's other tribal members who want to
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 1: connect with you and share notes, share seeds absolutely UM.
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 1: Sacredcy dot Org is the website for the project, and
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 1: that's really what I'm wanting to support doing podcasts like this.
• 2:27:52
  Speaker 1: But you can find me on Instagram. Taylor Keene seven
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 1: put up a lot of images of the corn and
• 2:28:00
  Speaker 1: plan that right now, so Taylor Keene is a full
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 1: time instructor at Creighton AM I saying that right, That's right,
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 1: Creton University's College of Business also the Founder's Sacred Seeds.
• 2:28:15
  Speaker 1: So if you want to find out more, I'm sure
• 2:28:17
  Speaker 1: you can dig in and that route. Can you repeat
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 1: your Instagram handle? Oh? Yeah, I hit us with that?
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 1: Is it? Taylor Keene seven? Taylor Keene seven t A
• 2:28:26
  Speaker 1: Y l O R K double e N the number seven.
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 1: All right, man, thanks so much for joining us. You
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 1: gotta clay. I've got one last thing here that I
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 1: wanted to share, big old arrowhead. Oh look at that.
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 1: This is an ancient type of war club, and it
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 1: was adorned by a member of my tribe. Those are
• 2:28:54
  Speaker 1: objects that are used during our war dance for younger
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 1: men than myself. But I'm wanted to share that with you, Steve.
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 1: Oh it's beautiful man. Thanks for inviting me on the show.
• 2:29:05
  Speaker 1: Like we get to have that in our studio, you do.
• 2:29:09
  Speaker 1: Was this war club made of wood? It was always
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 1: made out of wood, like a barrel typically, But it's
• 2:29:17
  Speaker 1: origins go back to a symbol of power in ancient
• 2:29:20
  Speaker 1: Native America, the symbol of the mace. What kind of feathers.
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 1: Are these all kinds of different things in there. There's
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: some pheasants, there's some um southern birds that are in there,
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 1: some pretty colorful ones. Those are cockatoos or I can
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 1: straighten those out a little bit. I just sneak it
• 2:29:40
  Speaker 1: into my bag there. But it's beautiful. Man, that's cool,
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 1: very cool. Thank you. Because we're as our wall works around,
• 2:29:48
  Speaker 1: we're gonna that's gonna we're gonna find a good spot
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 1: for that one. So would this be o Maha or Cherokee?
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 1: That would have been just probably goes back to the
• 2:29:56
  Speaker 1: Mississippian period because that symbol of the mace of power.
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 1: When we talk about it in the future, what what
• 2:30:01
  Speaker 1: would we say? How would we describe this when a
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 1: podcast guest goes, what's that? That's a war mace? A
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 1: war mace from the the planes traditions, Oh Maha, O sage.
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 1: All of us would have used those, but you wouldn't
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 1: want to get punked on the head with that. Then,
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 1: all right, Taylor Keen, thanks very much for joining us, man,
• 2:30:27
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thank you,
• 2:30:29
  Speaker 1: thank you.