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#446 Jason Flom with Dan Carnevale · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: On January seventeenth, nineteen ninety three, a fire ripped through
0:07
Speaker 1: two adjacent apartment buildings in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Many onlookers, including
0:13
Speaker 1: a man named Dan Carnivali, witnessed the mayhem that took
0:17
Speaker 1: three lives. Soon information was released to the media that
0:22
Speaker 1: two blank checks and a set of keys had been
0:25
Speaker 1: taken from the apartment building. Dan Carnivali's roommates once found
0:30
Speaker 1: a number of old checks from that apartment complex under
0:34
Speaker 1: his bet, so they reported him to the police. After
0:38
Speaker 1: Dan convinced police that he had come upon the blaze
0:40
Speaker 1: after the fact, he was released and he moved to California.
0:44
Speaker 1: The case went cold for nearly fourteen years until an
0:47
Speaker 1: eyewitness came forward with a different account of Dan's whereabouts
0:51
Speaker 1: that night. Dan was dragged back to Pennsylvania, where he
0:55
Speaker 1: allegedly confessed to a fellow inmate while awaiting trial, saying
1:00
Speaker 1: that he was in fact the culprit all those many
1:04
Speaker 1: years ago. But this is wrongful conviction. Wrongful conviction has
1:16
Speaker 1: always given voice to innocent people in prison. Now we're
1:19
Speaker 1: expanding that voice to you. Call us at eight three
1:23
Speaker 1: three two O seven four six sixty six and leave
1:26
Speaker 1: us a message, tell us how these powerful, often tragic
1:30
Speaker 1: stories make you feel outraged, inspired, motivated.
1:34
Speaker 2: We want to know.
1:36
Speaker 1: We may even include.
1:36
Speaker 2: Your story in a future episode.
1:38
Speaker 1: Call us A three three two O seven four six
1:41
Speaker 1: sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got
1:53
Speaker 1: an alleged arson case out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, again involving
1:58
Speaker 1: ATF agents William Patritis and Jason Wick, as well as
2:02
Speaker 1: ATF chemist William Kinnard. And you may remember one or
2:06
Speaker 1: all of them from the cases of Greg Brown and
2:08
Speaker 1: Christine Bunch, and of course we'll have both of those
2:10
Speaker 1: stories linked in the episode description. But now we're going
2:13
Speaker 1: to hear from another one of their victims, Dan Carnivale. Dan,
2:19
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for the reason you're here and for
2:22
Speaker 1: what you went through, but we're so happy and honored
2:25
Speaker 1: to have you here today. Thank you and joining him.
2:29
Speaker 1: You may recognize her from our coverage of Greg Brown's case.
2:32
Speaker 1: She's the managing attorney of the Pennsylvania Innocence Project, Liz Deloso.
2:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
2:38
Speaker 1: Glad to have you, and last but not least, Dan
2:41
Speaker 1: civil attorney Alec Right, Alec, Welcome, to wrongful conviction. Thanks
2:46
Speaker 1: for having me Now. Alec understanding is that you're also
2:49
Speaker 1: from Pittsburgh. But this fire happened way back in ninety
2:52
Speaker 1: three when you were still just a kid, while Dan
2:55
Speaker 1: at the time was already twenty nine. But crazily he
2:58
Speaker 1: didn't get prosecuted until weeen years after that. But before
3:02
Speaker 1: we unpack all of that, Dan, I want to hear
3:04
Speaker 1: more about what it was like growing up in Pittsburgh
3:06
Speaker 1: and being a teenager in the Steel City at that time.
3:10
Speaker 1: You were raised in Polish Hill, right.
3:12
Speaker 4: Yes, I grew up on Polish Show in Pittsburgh. I
3:15
Speaker 4: mean I did everything every other teenager did. Drank Bear
3:18
Speaker 4: in the Woods.
3:19
Speaker 1: Well, if I grew up there, I pretty much can
3:22
Speaker 1: guarantee I would have been right next to you.
3:25
Speaker 4: That makes all of us separality.
3:27
Speaker 5: My house, Dan, just so you know, had the woods
3:30
Speaker 5: behind it where we stashed the beer Steel City reserved. Dan,
3:34
Speaker 5: Was that a beer that you guys had at Polish Hill?
3:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I derailed the night train a few times too.
3:40
Speaker 1: During his twenties, Dan moved across Pittsburgh to the tightly
3:43
Speaker 1: knit Italian neighborhood of Bloomfield, where he was familiar with
3:47
Speaker 1: the buildings in which the nineteen ninety three fire occurred.
3:50
Speaker 4: I made some mistakes growing up, and I had some
3:54
Speaker 4: hard times in my twenties. I was a male thief.
3:58
Speaker 4: That was what linked me to the building, because I
4:01
Speaker 4: was still in their mail from the mailboxes. I would
4:04
Speaker 4: get the checks from the building and take them to
4:07
Speaker 4: poll the show and have somebody cash them for me.
4:10
Speaker 4: I mean, I drank out every night practically. I just
4:13
Speaker 4: I like to buy drinks and make myself look like
4:16
Speaker 4: I had money, and that night was no exception. I
4:19
Speaker 4: just went to the Luna that of karaoke to have
4:22
Speaker 4: a DJ whatever. I'd hang out there until they closed,
4:26
Speaker 4: and then I'd walk back to Bloomfield where I lived.
4:28
Speaker 4: Most of that night I don't remember, but I do
4:30
Speaker 4: remember being at the sandwich shop and I was with
4:33
Speaker 4: other people watching the fire. There was just a load
4:37
Speaker 4: of people there and people hanging out the windows, people
4:41
Speaker 4: screaming and yelling. Just that's I remember that.
4:45
Speaker 1: During the early morning hours of January seventeenth, nineteen eighty three,
4:48
Speaker 1: while Dan was closing down the Lunar Bar and headed
4:51
Speaker 1: to a local sandwich shop, a fire began at the
4:54
Speaker 1: nearby Columbia Apartment Building and spread next door to an
4:57
Speaker 1: apartment building called the Regal.
5:00
Speaker 3: Emergency calls started to come in around four am. By
5:04
Speaker 3: five thirty, it's a six alarm fire. The fire has
5:08
Speaker 3: moved from where it began in the basement all the
5:12
Speaker 3: way to the roof, and the northwest corner of the
5:17
Speaker 3: Columbia Apartment building collapses. Three apartment residents are killed. One
5:22
Speaker 3: visitor is very severely injured.
5:26
Speaker 1: That was twenty year old Linda McCutcheon who was staying
5:29
Speaker 1: with her friend. Twenty two year old Christopher Stallman, who
5:33
Speaker 1: leapt to his death to escape the flames. Sixty three
5:36
Speaker 1: year old Lawrence Lychkoe and thirty one year old Anita
5:39
Speaker 1: Emery died from smoke in elation. Thankfully, twenty nine other
5:43
Speaker 1: residents managed to survive, and they all reported the same thing.
5:47
Speaker 3: In the weeks prior to the fire. Witnesses would later
5:52
Speaker 3: tell investigators that they had like buzzing and clicking and
5:56
Speaker 3: banging within their radiators, that some apartments were really hot
6:00
Speaker 3: and some apartments were not receiving heat at all, and
6:03
Speaker 3: then justin the hours prior to like these nine to
6:06
Speaker 3: one one calls coming in we have a hissing, a buzzing,
6:09
Speaker 3: and banging within the radiators. You know, later in litigation,
6:13
Speaker 3: as we are investigating Dan's case, or expert Douglas Carpenter,
6:17
Speaker 3: one of the things that really stood out to Doug
6:20
Speaker 3: was the fact that a manual boiler, so a boiler
6:25
Speaker 3: that really required someone to keep up with it and
6:27
Speaker 3: to manually feed the water into that boiler to make
6:31
Speaker 3: sure that it wasn't overheating. That boiler would have had
6:35
Speaker 3: all of these signs or symptoms if it was malfunctioning
6:39
Speaker 3: in the days and weeks prior to the fire. Unfortunately,
6:43
Speaker 3: these apartment residents were not interviewed until days and weeks
6:47
Speaker 3: after the arson determination.
6:50
Speaker 1: Before speaking with these folks, the Pittsburgh Arson Squad had
6:53
Speaker 1: called in the ATF to assist with the investigation.
6:57
Speaker 3: These are two ATF agents that investigated the Greg Brown case,
7:01
Speaker 3: William Patritis and Jason Wick, and they're doing the same
7:05
Speaker 3: thing right. They're making this arson determination very quickly after
7:09
Speaker 3: the fire has been suppressed on visual inspection alone, without
7:13
Speaker 3: the use of any other experts, without ruling out any
7:16
Speaker 3: additional accidental causes, without all of the chemical analysis having
7:21
Speaker 3: been even sent to the ACF laboratory without witness interviews
7:26
Speaker 3: being completed, and they're not using the NFPA nine twenty one,
7:32
Speaker 3: which at that point in nineteen ninety three was in
7:35
Speaker 3: its first publication.
7:36
Speaker 1: The NFPA nine twenty one is the National Fire Protection
7:39
Speaker 1: Association's investigation guide that signaled a paradigm shift towards the
7:44
Speaker 1: scientific method and away from the myths and folklore nonsense
7:50
Speaker 1: that have been handed down by arson investigation predecessors visual
7:54
Speaker 1: cues that were believed to indicate that a fire had
7:56
Speaker 1: been intentionally set with accelerants. Modern science has proved that
8:01
Speaker 1: none of that stuff is true, but it was relied on,
8:04
Speaker 1: and sadly in some places it still relied on for
8:07
Speaker 1: generations and generations and generations. We'll have our coverage of
8:10
Speaker 1: arson investigation on wrongful conviction junk science linked in the
8:15
Speaker 1: episode description as well. But anyway, these ATF agents totally
8:20
Speaker 1: ignored this paradigm shift from myth to science and instead
8:26
Speaker 1: search for support for that determination that they had already made,
8:29
Speaker 1: and they interviewed some of the people who worked at
8:31
Speaker 1: these buildings.
8:32
Speaker 3: So the Regal Apartment building and the Columbia Apartment Building
8:35
Speaker 3: are connected in the basement via several locked doors. In
8:40
Speaker 3: the Regal apartment building, there was a can of laquer
8:44
Speaker 3: thinner near kind of like the back end of the basement.
8:47
Speaker 3: One of the maintenance men tells investigators, I can't find
8:50
Speaker 3: that can. It may have been moved. Later, they find
8:55
Speaker 3: a can of lacquer thinner in the maintenance room of
8:59
Speaker 3: the Columbia Apartment building, and that starts to turn the
9:02
Speaker 3: wheels for investigators that that must have been the can
9:06
Speaker 3: of lacker thinner that was originally stored in the Regal
9:10
Speaker 3: Apartment building. Although there are lots and lots of chemicals
9:15
Speaker 3: in this maintenance room, there is a insecticide, there's gasoline,
9:20
Speaker 3: there's a charcoal grill, there's lacquer thinner, there's no reason
9:24
Speaker 3: to believe that like this can of lacker thinner was
9:28
Speaker 3: intentionally moved by a perpetrator. It simply could have been
9:33
Speaker 3: moved by one of the maintenance men, of which there
9:35
Speaker 3: were several, or just a different can of laquer thinner.
9:39
Speaker 3: But that piques the investigator's interests.
9:43
Speaker 1: Then Patritis and Wick sent fifteen samples from the building
9:46
Speaker 1: to their boy in the ATF Lab William Canard.
9:50
Speaker 3: William Canard has a conversation with William Patritis prior to
9:55
Speaker 3: finalizing his report, and he says that in samples three, nine, ten,
10:01
Speaker 3: and six, there are elements that lead into believe that
10:06
Speaker 3: there was a presence of Lacquer Center, which was used
10:09
Speaker 3: as an accelerant to start this fire.
10:12
Speaker 1: And now what they needed was the right suspect. At
10:15
Speaker 1: this point, they had heard from a guy named Chris
10:18
Speaker 1: palm Mary who found two sets of keys and blank
10:20
Speaker 1: checks from the Columbia in front of one of the
10:23
Speaker 1: building owners's homes, and this information was leaked to the
10:27
Speaker 1: local media, which piqued the interest of Dan's roommates Keith
10:31
Speaker 1: Playtech and Tammy Mancini.
10:33
Speaker 5: The only thing that attached him to the Columbia apartment
10:36
Speaker 5: buildings at the time was Tammy Mancini and Keith Playtech saying,
10:41
Speaker 5: you know that they found these checks.
10:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, they found checks under the mattress of the bed
10:46
Speaker 4: I slept in, but they were old. They just happened
10:49
Speaker 4: to have that address on them.
10:50
Speaker 5: So when Dan was interviewed about that, you know, he
10:53
Speaker 5: readily admitted, yes, this was my cash cow. I stole
10:56
Speaker 5: checks from this place. So the police say, he needs
11:00
Speaker 5: your jacket for testing. He says, take my jacket for testing.
11:03
Speaker 5: They say, sit down for a polygraph test. He sits
11:05
Speaker 5: down for a polygraph test.
11:07
Speaker 4: Oh, add they lost the coat and they losched a
11:10
Speaker 4: polygraph test.
11:11
Speaker 1: Both items cleared Dan, but if they hadn't, surely they
11:14
Speaker 1: would have been saved. Additionally, Dan had his alibi and
11:17
Speaker 1: no way of having been able to get into these buildings.
11:20
Speaker 5: Every exterior door to this building was locked. The maintenance
11:24
Speaker 5: room where they say the fire started was locked. The
11:27
Speaker 5: office where two blank checks and keys that are later
11:30
Speaker 5: found on the owner of the building's doorstep after this
11:32
Speaker 5: fire was locked. The room in the regal building where
11:36
Speaker 5: Liz was describing, you name your accelerant, that's in this room, okay.
11:40
Speaker 4: Locked.
11:41
Speaker 5: The access to the regal building is an l two
11:44
Speaker 5: by four over the door. Can't get into it. Everywhere
11:47
Speaker 5: down of this basement locked, and everybody tells them this.
11:52
Speaker 5: August Paluso, the owner of the building, Orlando Syrium Belly,
11:55
Speaker 5: who is the person who actually goes in and locks
11:57
Speaker 5: the doors that night, and Ronald t who is one
12:00
Speaker 5: of the maintenance people at the time, all say everything's locked.
12:04
Speaker 5: Dan has only ever taken checks from an outdoor courtyard.
12:08
Speaker 1: So if this had been arson, the assailant either had
12:12
Speaker 1: to have had keys or have broken in somehow. So
12:16
Speaker 1: the when this interviews continued and one building resident, Paul Parter,
12:20
Speaker 1: said that he had heard a party going on that night,
12:23
Speaker 1: which corroborated a statement from a guy named Sean Maxwell.
12:28
Speaker 5: On January eighteenth of nineteen ninety three, the day after
12:31
Speaker 5: this fire, Sean Maxwell comes forward and says, the guy
12:34
Speaker 5: named Larry Steele shows up to my house a few
12:37
Speaker 5: hours after this fire. He's covered in soot, talking about
12:40
Speaker 5: how he broke into this Columbia apartment building with some friends.
12:43
Speaker 5: They were drinking, and he says, we burned down the
12:46
Speaker 5: building by accident. If you tell anybody about it, I
12:49
Speaker 5: will kill you and I will kill your grandmother. Sean
12:52
Speaker 5: Maxwell tells police investigators, I know who did it, and
12:56
Speaker 5: I know the name of the guy that he was with.
12:58
Speaker 5: His name was Rob Zacharias. While this is going on,
13:01
Speaker 5: a couple other witnesses in the neighborhood, and you have
13:03
Speaker 5: to understand Pittsburgh to really grasp this. Bloomfield is an
13:07
Speaker 5: old Italian town in Pittsburgh, and everybody knows everybody in
13:12
Speaker 5: the neighborhood, and one of the things that these individual
13:14
Speaker 5: residents are talking about is that there is an individual
13:18
Speaker 5: with long sandy blondehair's shoulder length in an army field
13:21
Speaker 5: jacket that we don't know who's watching this fire. They
13:25
Speaker 5: actually create a composite sketch, and this individual matches one
13:28
Speaker 5: of two people, First Rob Zacharias, who was the same
13:31
Speaker 5: individual that Larry Steele said earlier he was with that night. Second,
13:36
Speaker 5: a former maintenance man by the name of Glenn Spoon,
13:39
Speaker 5: who is fired from the property a year ago, but
13:43
Speaker 5: Paul Potter says, is spotted a day or two before
13:45
Speaker 5: this fire, and one of the only individuals other than
13:49
Speaker 5: the owner of the building who have keys to those
13:52
Speaker 5: locked rooms. He matches the description of the composite sketch.
13:56
Speaker 1: Two more individuals were identified who also matched this description. However,
14:00
Speaker 1: who even knows if this stranger had anything to do
14:04
Speaker 1: with the fire or if Larry Steele had ever even
14:06
Speaker 1: made this confession about him or about Rob Zacharias. Considering
14:11
Speaker 1: that this fire in all likelihood was a tragic accident,
14:15
Speaker 1: the presence of this alleged suspect with sandy blonde hair
14:18
Speaker 1: and an army field jacket had both dubious value and
14:22
Speaker 1: was also definitely not Dan. The description set five to
14:26
Speaker 1: ten and Dan is six', four so that's not even.
14:29
Speaker 1: Close and it appears that yet another witness Named Shane,
14:33
Speaker 1: evans confirmed That.
14:35
Speaker 5: Shane evans grew up With DAN carnivali would know him
14:38
Speaker 5: from one hundred yards, away would know him from one
14:40
Speaker 5: hundred inches. Away Shane evans is watching the fire happen
14:43
Speaker 5: On january, seventeenth nineteen ninety, three four, am four, fifteen
14:47
Speaker 5: around five, am he leaves the. Fire he finds a
14:50
Speaker 5: fire personnel and he says to, THEM i was walking
14:54
Speaker 5: by The columbia about five minutes before the fire broke.
14:57
Speaker 5: OUT i heard a door close of The columbia apartment.
15:00
Speaker 5: BUILDING i turned around in a very well lit, area
15:04
Speaker 5: could not see his. Face the person was unknown to,
15:06
Speaker 5: me but had sandy long blonde hair shoulder length and
15:10
Speaker 5: an army field. Jacket and fire personnel say go tell police.
15:14
Speaker 1: Investigators So Shane evans did exactly. That he told three
15:19
Speaker 1: investigators what he had.
15:20
Speaker 4: Seen wait do you hear what he? Said thirteen years?
15:23
Speaker 2: Later you're listening to Wrongful.
15:39
Speaker 1: Conviction you can listen to this and all The lava
15:41
Speaker 1: For good podcasts one week early and ad free by
15:44
Speaker 1: subscribing To lava For Good plus On Apple. Podcasts After
15:55
Speaker 1: dan cooperated to the fullest with law, enforcement his jacket
15:58
Speaker 1: tested negative for. Accelerants he passed a, polygraph which has limited,
16:03
Speaker 1: value but still he was released and he grew a
16:07
Speaker 1: bit cold On.
16:08
Speaker 4: Pittsburgh pittsburgh was bad for. Me all my friends were
16:11
Speaker 4: dying of. Overdoses everybody was dying Of China white And
16:15
Speaker 4: iroin and in this and. THAT i JUST i had
16:17
Speaker 4: to get. AWAY i couldn't take it any. Where the
16:19
Speaker 4: police were at my parents' house every other day about something.
16:23
Speaker 4: Stupid most of IT i knew nothing. About about a
16:26
Speaker 4: month or or so after, THAT i moved To. CALIFORNIA
16:29
Speaker 4: i have a friend who lives out there In Humble.
16:31
Speaker 4: COUNTY i called the police From california and told HIM
16:34
Speaker 4: i was. There that you, know if you need me
16:37
Speaker 4: for any further, questioning this is Where i'm. At it
16:40
Speaker 4: wasn't LIKE i was living in the mountain siding from.
16:43
Speaker 4: ANYBODY i just wanted to start, over SO i.
16:45
Speaker 1: Left the case went cold for nearly fourteen, years and
16:50
Speaker 1: during that Time dan had built himself a, happy comfortable.
16:54
Speaker 4: LIFE i had a. FAMILY i had a, WIFE i
16:57
Speaker 4: had step, KIDS i had a. HOUSE i had a good.
17:00
Speaker 4: JOB i was working in a lumber mill eighty eighty
17:03
Speaker 4: five thousand a. YEAR i finally was doing good in my, life,
17:07
Speaker 4: finally and then everything went down.
17:09
Speaker 1: Hill in early two thousand and, Six Pittsburgh police cold
17:13
Speaker 1: case Detective Scott evans And. Jr smith inexplicably. Reopened in
17:18
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Three columbia fire.
17:19
Speaker 5: Investigation they do a huge press release Where Scott evans And.
17:24
Speaker 5: Jr smith release all of the information that we've talked
17:27
Speaker 5: about so far out to the. News then they put
17:30
Speaker 5: a ten thousand dollars reward in the paper for anybody for,
17:33
Speaker 5: information and thirteen years later on a ten thousand dollars.
17:36
Speaker 5: Reward in this press, release they talked To Shane, evans who, says,
17:40
Speaker 5: now in this well lit, AREA i saw six foot
17:44
Speaker 5: Four DAN carnivali face to face leaving That columbia apartment.
17:48
Speaker 5: Building they Asked Shane evans in nineteen ninety, three did
17:51
Speaker 5: you know Who DAN carnivali? Was And Shane, evans of course,
17:54
Speaker 5: SAYS i grew up with him my whole. Life one
17:57
Speaker 5: hundred percent it was, him AND i was watching the
18:00
Speaker 5: fire later and he came up to me, unsolicited unprovoked
18:04
Speaker 5: and screamed out. LOUD i was at the sandwich. Shop
18:08
Speaker 5: and when he testifies at, trial he says those same,
18:11
Speaker 5: things except he also, says and by the, Way Dan
18:15
Speaker 5: carnivali was covered with. Soot, now let's remember some of
18:18
Speaker 5: the things that we've talked about so. Far Dan carnivali
18:21
Speaker 5: had told everybody his alibi that he was at the
18:23
Speaker 5: sandwich shop after being at the lunar. Bar we also
18:26
Speaker 5: know from the criminal investigation file That Larry, steele in
18:29
Speaker 5: his confession was covered in. Soot Shane evans is receiving
18:33
Speaker 5: information somewhere from someone to add those two pieces of
18:37
Speaker 5: information into this. Situation when he told everybody in nineteen ninety,
18:41
Speaker 5: three when the fire was still, going that he did
18:45
Speaker 5: not recognize the person.
18:46
Speaker 4: All of a, sudden in two thousand and, six it was.
18:48
Speaker 4: Me he saw.
18:49
Speaker 1: Me ten grand can be pretty. Persuasive and, meanwhile the
18:54
Speaker 1: state disposed of those original statements from nineteen ninety three
18:58
Speaker 1: in Which evans had said he could and identify the,
19:01
Speaker 1: suspect only sharing this two thousand and Six david which
19:05
Speaker 1: goner the arrest.
19:06
Speaker 4: WERERANT i was coming home From warp one, day riding
19:09
Speaker 4: up to my, house AND i knew there was a
19:11
Speaker 4: helicopter following, me and it was driving all the way
19:14
Speaker 4: up through fifty UNTIL i got close to my, house
19:18
Speaker 4: and then the car pulled out beside me and the
19:21
Speaker 4: lights went, on and THEN i seen The pennsylvania badges
19:24
Speaker 4: AND i was, like, oh what the. Hell so then
19:27
Speaker 4: they started questioning me about the. FIRE i told them
19:30
Speaker 4: a million TIMES i did not do, This you're making a.
19:32
Speaker 4: Mistake but all they kept doing was yelling at, me,
19:35
Speaker 4: well think about the people that are, Dead, well think
19:37
Speaker 4: about what you're. Doing you're a resting or wrong, person
19:39
Speaker 4: so you know WHAT i. Mean that's all they kept telling.
19:41
Speaker 4: ME i didn't know what to tell. Them FINALLY i,
19:43
Speaker 4: said let me have an. ATTORNEY i don't want to
19:45
Speaker 4: talk to you'all. Anymore next thing you, Know i'm sitting
19:47
Speaker 4: in the county jail.
19:49
Speaker 5: And now emerges a jail house informant by the name
19:51
Speaker 5: Of Sean. Burns here's What Sean burns tells everybody in
19:56
Speaker 5: all of this, Time DAN carnivali explains To Sean burns
19:59
Speaker 5: this individual in protective custody The Alleghany County jail is
20:03
Speaker 5: THAT i didn't mean to burn down the, building but
20:06
Speaker 5: what happened WAS i was at the bar and somebody
20:09
Speaker 5: told me that it's possible that in the future they
20:12
Speaker 5: might put video surveillance on The Columbia apartment, building and
20:16
Speaker 5: so in order to get ahead of them setting up video,
20:20
Speaker 5: Surveillance i'm gonna break into The columbia And i'm gonna
20:24
Speaker 5: go into the, office BUT i don't find any video.
20:27
Speaker 5: Surveillance it's not. There but just out of an abundance of,
20:30
Speaker 5: Caution i'm gonna take this can of lacquer thinner And
20:33
Speaker 5: i'm gonna douse the, office not the, maintenance from the
20:36
Speaker 5: office with this whole, can and then i'm gonna light a.
20:39
Speaker 5: Match i'm gonna throw it behind, me And i'm gonna
20:42
Speaker 5: walk out with the can of lacquer, thinner get rid of,
20:44
Speaker 5: it and hopefully that fire will contain itself in that
20:48
Speaker 5: office and burn the video surveillance equipment THAT i couldn't
20:51
Speaker 5: find in THAT i don't know. Exists and in the,
20:53
Speaker 5: Process i'm gonna take two blank checks and instead of
20:55
Speaker 5: them onto the owner and then go set them down
20:58
Speaker 5: on the doorstep of the owner.
21:00
Speaker 1: Building the allegend motive was as far fetched as it
21:03
Speaker 1: was inconsistent with THE atfs, theory which if their theory
21:07
Speaker 1: is to be, believed then why Was burn's alleging That
21:12
Speaker 1: dan burned the, office not the maintenance rough and then
21:15
Speaker 1: left with the lacquer thinner when the can was in
21:18
Speaker 1: fact found in the. Building either, Way Sean burns did
21:23
Speaker 1: not make this statement for.
21:25
Speaker 4: Free Sean burns had gun. Charges he also had some kid,
21:30
Speaker 4: charges some child rape, things and if he would have
21:33
Speaker 4: went to state, prison he wouldn't have made it. Through
21:35
Speaker 4: so he was doing anything he could do to come
21:38
Speaker 4: up with getting himself out of, jail and he got
21:41
Speaker 4: out of jail four days after my.
21:43
Speaker 3: Trial what we later find, Out Sean burns has not
21:47
Speaker 3: only testified In Daniel carnivali's case during two thousand and,
21:51
Speaker 3: Seven he's testified on behalf of the commonwealth as an
21:55
Speaker 3: informant in two other cases just.
21:58
Speaker 5: That year for the same, prosecutor for the very same.
22:02
Speaker 3: Prosecutor they got the deal of a century for cerial.
22:06
Speaker 1: Cooperation so it seems like this, Prosecutor jennifer Di, giovanni
22:11
Speaker 1: was willing to overlook the inconsistencies In burns's statement to
22:16
Speaker 1: try to close The columbia, firecase and With Shane evans
22:19
Speaker 1: And Sean burns in her back, pocket she Offered dan
22:22
Speaker 1: three and a half to seven. Years pretty incredible deal
22:27
Speaker 1: if you think about. It if she really thought he
22:29
Speaker 1: was guilty of a triple, MURDERER i.
22:31
Speaker 4: Wasn't taking a. PLEA i wouldn't care what they were giving.
22:34
Speaker 4: ME i didn't do, it And i'm not taking a.
22:36
Speaker 4: PLEA i really thought that there was no way they
22:39
Speaker 4: could find someone guilty that wasn't. GUILTY i JUST i
22:43
Speaker 4: found out the hard. WAY i was.
22:44
Speaker 1: Roam dan went to trial In august two thousand and
22:47
Speaker 1: seven with his Attorney Frank, walker and in addition To
22:50
Speaker 1: evans And, BURNS atf Agent William patritis testified from. Memory
22:54
Speaker 1: right fourteen years removed from the investigation and testified from
22:58
Speaker 1: memory the physical evidence had all been, destroyed making it
23:01
Speaker 1: impossible to do a full. Reinvestigation, Meanwhile patritis was sure
23:05
Speaker 1: that an alleged assailant started the blaze with lacquer dinner
23:09
Speaker 1: in the maintenance, room backing his claims up with ancient arson.
23:12
Speaker 3: Gobbledegook he says that the thing that really stood out
23:16
Speaker 3: to him was the low burn patterns that were present
23:21
Speaker 3: on like the doorway of the mechanical, room which today
23:27
Speaker 3: we know low burn patterns are not indicative of an
23:31
Speaker 3: unnaturally or an accelerant set. Fire we know that if
23:35
Speaker 3: the structure reaches full room, involvement meaning, flashover that low
23:40
Speaker 3: burn patterns are absolutely naturally. Occurring But patritis's, testimony you,
23:47
Speaker 3: know led the jury to believe that these low burn
23:49
Speaker 3: patterns were unnaturally, occurring were indicative of only a fire
23:54
Speaker 3: that could have been set through the use of an.
23:56
Speaker 1: Accelerant and this non scientific observation was then backed up
24:01
Speaker 1: by allegedly scientific analysis FROM atf Chemist William, cannard whose
24:07
Speaker 1: credibility was falling apart in the lead up To dan's.
24:10
Speaker 1: Trial in two thousand and, six three fire scientists were
24:14
Speaker 1: hired to examine his analysis of an alleged arson In,
24:17
Speaker 1: indiana the Notorious Christine blench, case in which he said
24:21
Speaker 1: there was presence of an accelerant in her son's bedroom
24:25
Speaker 1: when in fact there was, none.
24:26
Speaker 3: And William canard is really exposed as having falsified. Report
24:30
Speaker 3: we know that In august two thousand and, seven THE
24:34
Speaker 3: atf is asked to Reevaluate William cannard's original chemical analysis
24:40
Speaker 3: In dan's nineteen ninety three. Case Chief Julia dolan real
24:45
Speaker 3: evaluates all of the gascarmatographs and she says that the
24:50
Speaker 3: levels of lackarthinner are so low as to be. Meaningless
24:55
Speaker 3: she disagrees with every single. Finding canard has reported that
25:01
Speaker 3: report That Julia dolan does is not shared with defense.
25:05
Speaker 5: Counsel but The Julia dolan memo is Dated august of
25:09
Speaker 5: two thousand and, seven And dan was Tried august twenty.
25:13
Speaker 5: Sixth In august twenty seventh of two thousand and, seven
25:17
Speaker 5: so somebody. Knew somebody had the. Information But Jennifer digivanni
25:23
Speaker 5: Gets Frank walker croml defense attorney to just, Stipulate, hey
25:27
Speaker 5: you don't want to go get an. Expert let's just
25:30
Speaker 5: accept THE atf just, stipulate don't get an.
25:32
Speaker 4: Expert this is.
25:34
Speaker 3: Legit and Then petritis just reads In William connard's original
25:40
Speaker 3: chemical analysis telling the jury that lacquer thinner has been
25:44
Speaker 3: found in all of these, samples.
25:47
Speaker 5: And so that evidence was always just assumed to be
25:49
Speaker 5: one hundred percent.
25:50
Speaker 3: True and then with all of the information that was
25:52
Speaker 3: withheld from defense, counsel any of the alternative, perpetrators the
25:57
Speaker 3: steel alleged, confession And Julia DOLAN atf report saying that
26:02
Speaker 3: the lack Of thurner conclusion was.
26:05
Speaker 1: Meaningless dan was convicted of, arson, burglary aggravated, assault and
26:10
Speaker 1: three counts of second degree. Murder so instead of three
26:13
Speaker 1: and a half, years he got three consecutive life.
26:17
Speaker 4: Sentences my trial lasted one, day by the, WAY i,
26:20
Speaker 4: MEAN i had a triple. HOMICIDE i picked the jury one,
26:24
Speaker 4: day which found guilty the NEXT i was just. SHOCKED
26:27
Speaker 4: i was in shocked for probably the first. Year my
26:49
Speaker 4: personality got me through. PRISON i could be a comedian
26:52
Speaker 4: BECAUSE i had to make it to WHERE i wasn't
26:55
Speaker 4: going to get in trouble in jail or have enemies
26:59
Speaker 4: or or. WHATEVER i just did the BEST i. COULD
27:02
Speaker 4: i was in a supermax. Prison you, KNOW i had
27:05
Speaker 4: three life. Sentences it's bugging me right. NOW i can't
27:09
Speaker 4: get it out of my fucking they just hearing all
27:12
Speaker 4: the stuff that they did to me over and. Over
27:15
Speaker 4: it's you know, why they had enough stuff to prove me,
27:20
Speaker 4: innocent but they lost it all a little, strange ain't?
27:23
Speaker 3: It, like let's just. Recap they alleged to have lost
27:28
Speaker 3: the jacket That dan turned over for testing as to
27:31
Speaker 3: whether he had any kind of like trace of accelerants
27:34
Speaker 3: on his. Jacket they do not have the polygraph That dan,
27:38
Speaker 3: took which you, know indicated that he was not being.
27:43
Speaker 3: Deceptive at, trial they testified that they lost any indication
27:49
Speaker 3: That Shane evans had come forward on the night of
27:52
Speaker 3: the fire and made original police.
27:55
Speaker 1: Statements yet the original statements turned up years, later and
27:59
Speaker 1: With Shane, evans who Knew DAN carnivali could not identify
28:02
Speaker 1: the man he. Saw, Rather evans had described someone who
28:07
Speaker 1: did not Match dan's. Profile but before those statements were,
28:10
Speaker 1: Discovered dan's earlier appeals focused on the Information dan had
28:15
Speaker 1: received About Sean.
28:16
Speaker 4: Burns this guy sent me a message to my self
28:19
Speaker 4: saying that he wanted to talk to me out in
28:21
Speaker 4: the yard about something really. Important i'm starting to stress
28:24
Speaker 4: out what the hell's wrong? Now SO i go out
28:26
Speaker 4: in the yard and he tells, me, hey did you
28:28
Speaker 4: ever hear Of David? DIXON i said. No then he, goes,
28:31
Speaker 4: well do you Know jennifer Di. GIOVANNI i said, yes
28:33
Speaker 4: Why and then he started explaining that she put him in,
28:37
Speaker 4: jail and they Had Sean burns as also as The
28:41
Speaker 4: Jae how's, informant blah blah, blah and he ended up
28:44
Speaker 4: getting twenty years and he just wanted to let me
28:47
Speaker 4: know that it happened to him.
28:48
Speaker 1: To David, dixon who had spent time With Sean, burns
28:51
Speaker 1: swore an affidavit That burns had admitted Fabricating dan's alleged,
28:54
Speaker 1: confession which became part of a post conviction relief. Motion
28:58
Speaker 1: along with the sweetheart. Deal burns had received fourteen months
29:02
Speaker 1: and immediate parole. Eligibility he was released four days After dan's. Trout,
29:07
Speaker 1: however Both dan's post conviction motion and his habeas were
29:11
Speaker 1: denied by twenty, sixteen by which point The Pennsylvania Innocence
29:15
Speaker 1: project had Reviewed dan's case And liz paid him a.
29:18
Speaker 4: Visit Once liz came to see me for the first,
29:21
Speaker 4: time everything. CHANGED i knew that something was going to
29:24
Speaker 4: happen BECAUSE i was. INNOCENT i don't even know what
29:26
Speaker 4: the satal is, anymore because she's just like the best
29:29
Speaker 4: thing that ever happened to. Me i'm, SORRY i love you, too.
29:35
Speaker 3: And our first step was to retain our, Expert Douglas,
29:39
Speaker 3: carpenter and he did that review pro, bono even though
29:43
Speaker 3: we were missing quite a bit of. Documentation he really
29:46
Speaker 3: laid out for the court the evolution of THE nfpa
29:51
Speaker 3: nine twenty one of how fire signs and fire, investigation
29:55
Speaker 3: what would have been done in twenty seventeen that just
29:58
Speaker 3: was not done In night eighteen ninety, three was not
30:01
Speaker 3: even conceptualized in nineteen ninety, three and alleged that this
30:05
Speaker 3: fire should not have been determined an arson or intentionally
30:11
Speaker 3: set that at the very, least it should have been.
30:14
Speaker 3: Undetermined and his theory was that it was an accidental
30:18
Speaker 3: fire and that the boiler, overheated causing superheating within the,
30:23
Speaker 3: joists and he you, know talked very much about like
30:25
Speaker 3: the steam pipes and how they ran throughout the, building
30:29
Speaker 3: how they ran straight up into that northwest corner that,
30:32
Speaker 3: collapsed the ways in which witness statements afterwards really supported
30:36
Speaker 3: the fact that this could have been an accidental boiler.
30:39
Speaker 1: Overheating but the state argued that this was just a
30:43
Speaker 1: battle of experts and their petition was. Denied, However liz's
30:47
Speaker 1: work On Greg brown's case Another canard, victim by the,
30:50
Speaker 1: way appears to have been the catalyst that brought The
30:52
Speaker 1: Julia dolan report In dan's case to light in twenty.
30:56
Speaker 3: NINETEEN i can't say exactly what happened, here but IF
31:02
Speaker 3: i had to, assume that ASSISTANT us attorney In Greg
31:05
Speaker 3: brown's case requested all of THE atf files arson files
31:11
Speaker 3: that were conducted In Alleghany county through a specific time,
31:16
Speaker 3: period so nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety. Five right one
31:20
Speaker 3: of those case files Was Dan carnivali's and within THAT
31:25
Speaker 3: atf case file was That Julia dolan report saying that
31:31
Speaker 3: The lacquer thinner results that were originally reported In canards
31:36
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three report were. Meaningless that was then turned
31:40
Speaker 3: over to THE pcra attorney that was working On Dan carnivali's.
31:44
Speaker 3: Case and thank goodness for the ethics of THAT pcra,
31:48
Speaker 3: prosecutor because they turned it over TO us as they
31:52
Speaker 3: have a constitutional duty to. Do and because of that,
31:56
Speaker 3: report The Alleghany County District attorney's office agreed That dan
32:01
Speaker 3: deserved a new.
32:02
Speaker 1: Trial while THE da was deciding whether to even bother
32:06
Speaker 1: with a new, Trial liz reached out To Julia.
32:08
Speaker 3: DOLAN i was able to Interview Julia dolan and ask,
32:12
Speaker 3: why in two thousand and, seven very, coincidentally in the
32:17
Speaker 3: same month As dan's, trial did you Reevaluate cannard's? Report
32:24
Speaker 3: and the only RESPONSE i was able to achieve WAS
32:28
Speaker 3: i cannot. Recall AND i was, like was it a
32:30
Speaker 3: specific request From Alleghany county to reevaluate this analysis or
32:36
Speaker 3: were you doing a more systemic review of like analysis
32:40
Speaker 3: from this time from this particular chemist because he had
32:44
Speaker 3: been discredited in The bunch, case and she, SAYS i
32:47
Speaker 3: have never done a systemic review of one of my.
32:51
Speaker 1: Colleagues in addition to This brady violation that should have
32:56
Speaker 1: Prevented dan's two thousand and seven trial from ever happening at,
32:59
Speaker 1: All liz was now able to locate even more evidence.
33:04
Speaker 3: In The District attorney's response to OUR pcra. Petition one
33:09
Speaker 3: of the attachments was a document from the insurance agency
33:14
Speaker 3: that represented the owner of The columbia, building and it
33:18
Speaker 3: gave me the actual, name which Was Northwestern National. Insurance many,
33:25
Speaker 3: times especially in These arson, cases the insurance company will
33:28
Speaker 3: do a much more in depth investigation in order to
33:33
Speaker 3: determine whether they should pay the claim than sometimes The
33:36
Speaker 3: arson squad. Will WHEN i tried to locate how Many
33:40
Speaker 3: Northwestern national insurance companies there, were there was like over two.
33:44
Speaker 3: Hundred SO i just made a list and started down this.
33:48
Speaker 3: LIST i THINK i got to probably seventy, five maybe
33:51
Speaker 3: one hundred calls when FINALLY i spoke with this woman
33:55
Speaker 3: AND i gave her the insurance claim, number and she, said,
33:58
Speaker 3: yes that reflects a claim. Number that would have been
34:02
Speaker 3: a claim number that we used at the. Time but
34:04
Speaker 3: they were in the process of destroying all of these old,
34:08
Speaker 3: documents AND i was, like stop where you. Are if
34:11
Speaker 3: you have these old, DOCUMENTS i need, Them and so
34:14
Speaker 3: immediately sent her a subpoena and she located six thousand
34:19
Speaker 3: pages of insurance documents and within that box were those
34:25
Speaker 3: original police reports From Shane evans that the cold case
34:30
Speaker 3: detectives said were, lost and there were three police. Reports
34:34
Speaker 3: he did in fact speak with three police officers on that,
34:38
Speaker 3: night but despite his trial testimony saying it was, LIGHT
34:43
Speaker 3: i immediately recognized it As DANIEL carnivali his police report
34:49
Speaker 3: said unknown white male did not see face all. Three
34:55
Speaker 3: and so WHEN i presented this a district attorney's office
34:57
Speaker 3: finally said we're going to nol. Prost we're going to
35:00
Speaker 3: pititition the court to withdraw all, charges And dan was
35:04
Speaker 3: finally released and.
35:06
Speaker 4: EXONERATED i got Released march, eighteenth the first day OF
35:11
Speaker 4: covid that nobody was.
35:12
Speaker 3: Allowed out of the house the very first day of
35:15
Speaker 3: like everybody was being kind of like sent home from your.
35:19
Speaker 4: WORK i went out ANYWAY i used. TO i was
35:21
Speaker 4: walking all Over. PITTSBURGH i was taking money and giving
35:25
Speaker 4: fight older, bills the homeless people Down Tom. Pittsburgh SO
35:28
Speaker 4: i haven't been In pittsburgh for twenty, six twenty seven.
35:31
Speaker 4: Years So i'm back In. Pittsburgh i'm living with my,
35:34
Speaker 4: brother and he's taking good care of. Me like he
35:36
Speaker 4: bought me a. Motorcycle he let me use his, Car
35:39
Speaker 4: he helped me get my driver's. LICENSE Kk radio, station
35:43
Speaker 4: helped me get the. JOB i, mean there was a lot.
35:46
Speaker 4: INVOLVED i just, oh AND i had a house something
35:49
Speaker 4: In pittsburgh that my parents had and they had squatters
35:52
Speaker 4: and stuff living in. It SO i just went there
35:54
Speaker 4: and cleaned it and we sold. That and it was
35:56
Speaker 4: pretty crazy WHEN i got, out but life got so.
35:59
Speaker 4: Good THEN i met my, Wife, donna who's sitting next
36:02
Speaker 4: to me right everything. Changed we're on our second home
36:05
Speaker 4: SINCE i got. Out you, know JUST i work ten
36:08
Speaker 4: hours a, day six days a week sometimes and Just
36:13
Speaker 4: i'm loving.
36:13
Speaker 3: LIFE i will say that WHEN i first Met, dan
36:18
Speaker 3: just the, sweetest most sincere. Man and you, Know dan's,
36:22
Speaker 3: Case greg's, case every case THAT i work on is
36:25
Speaker 3: the best thing THAT i could possibly do with my jurse.
36:27
Speaker 3: Doctorate but like knowing THAT i never have to have
36:31
Speaker 3: a conversation With dan in those orange uniforms in that
36:36
Speaker 3: mint green, room that's. Enough that's enough THAT i have
36:39
Speaker 3: done with my. CAREER i could stop.
36:41
Speaker 5: Today dan is the most incredible person That i've ever.
36:45
Speaker 5: Met HE i have a four year old, boy my oldest.
36:49
Speaker 5: Boy dan is a very successful. Baker he loves the
36:52
Speaker 5: bacon he bakes for one of the probably the most
36:55
Speaker 5: famous bakery in all of The Pittsburgh.
36:56
Speaker 4: Areia third best in the, country third best in the.
36:59
Speaker 5: Country on his own, Dime dan surprised my four year
37:02
Speaker 5: old's junior pre kindergarten class With halloween cookies that he
37:07
Speaker 5: made for. Them and then On thanksgiving and we you know,
37:10
Speaker 5: talk if not every day every other, day Said, alec
37:14
Speaker 5: you gotta try my homemade pumpkin.
37:16
Speaker 4: PIE i do.
37:17
Speaker 5: It i'm gonna get, There, Dan i'm gonna get. There
37:21
Speaker 5: AND i, SAID i love pumpkin pie and he said it's,
37:24
Speaker 5: cheesecake BUT i do a special sauce on. Top and
37:27
Speaker 5: so my, family my two, boys my, wife we all
37:30
Speaker 5: Met dan and he gave us this homemade pumpkin. Pie
37:33
Speaker 5: and then we Called dan AND i, Said, dan let's
37:35
Speaker 5: go To Eaton, park sort of this well Owned pitsburg.
37:38
Speaker 5: Dive and we get there And dan's talking about the Super,
37:42
Speaker 5: burgers raveing about a Super.
37:43
Speaker 3: Burger you're so obsessed With bidnax And superburger obsessed with.
37:46
Speaker 5: It And i'm, Like, dan fuck the Super. Burger i'm
37:50
Speaker 5: getting turkey. Dinner And dan looks at the waitress and
37:53
Speaker 5: he goes give me the exact same. Thing and then
37:57
Speaker 5: this woman walked over. Unsolicited dan had A steelers tattoo
38:00
Speaker 5: on the side of his head and, said, SIR i
38:03
Speaker 5: love your. Tattoo And dan made a joke to. Her
38:07
Speaker 5: she lit. Up he he is a guy that just
38:09
Speaker 5: makes everything. Better you make everything.
38:12
Speaker 1: Better, Okay so just in CASE i find myself In
38:15
Speaker 1: pittsburgh anytime, soon what's the name of this Bakery.
38:17
Speaker 4: Oakmont bakery number one In pittsburgh for.
38:20
Speaker 1: Sure well shout out To Oakmont. Bakery we're gonna have
38:23
Speaker 1: them linked in the episode description as. Well but, meanwhile
38:26
Speaker 1: we wish you all the best in the civil. Suit
38:29
Speaker 1: as we go now to closing, arguments where first of,
38:32
Speaker 1: ALL i thank you guys so much for sharing this.
38:35
Speaker 1: Story and Then i'm just gonna take these next few
38:38
Speaker 1: minutes to sit back in my chair and listen to
38:41
Speaker 1: anything else you feel is left to be. Said so
38:44
Speaker 1: let's start With, alec Then, liz and of course Finally.
38:49
Speaker 5: Dan there's nothing really for me to add except to.
38:53
Speaker 5: Reiterate you, Know, dan you know we all love. You
38:57
Speaker 5: this is about. You others are, hurt but you know
38:59
Speaker 5: we're in your fight and you really do make life.
39:02
Speaker 5: Better you made my life, Better you made my family's life.
39:05
Speaker 4: Better thank. You i'll bring you some work.
39:07
Speaker 5: Cook, well those compliments will only continue as long as
39:10
Speaker 5: you feed.
39:10
Speaker 4: Me, Right, Okay, liz what do you guys to?
39:13
Speaker 1: Say by?
39:14
Speaker 3: Takeaway AND i expressed this To alec quite a, bit
39:17
Speaker 3: IS i just don't understand Why dan was, targeted and
39:23
Speaker 3: not even in nineteen ninety, three, right it was years,
39:27
Speaker 3: later in two thousand and, six it feels like more
39:31
Speaker 3: of an effort to Target dan as opposed to actually
39:35
Speaker 3: following the tangible leads that they. Had AND i feel,
39:39
Speaker 3: like you, know when you, lie when you cover, up
39:41
Speaker 3: you not only have to remember the lies and the
39:44
Speaker 3: cover up that you, did but the lies and the
39:46
Speaker 3: cover up that you asked others to, do which seems
39:50
Speaker 3: much much more difficult than just conducting a really straightforward
39:55
Speaker 3: and logical. Investigation and SO i just WILL i will
39:58
Speaker 3: never understand this. CASE i will never understand Why dan was,
40:03
Speaker 3: targeted especially because he was out of. State you, know
40:07
Speaker 3: he wasn't in our, state he wasn't in our, community
40:09
Speaker 3: he wasn't causing a, problem he wasn't making. Enemies and
40:12
Speaker 3: SO i hope, Someday, dan you have an answer to.
40:15
Speaker 3: THAT i would like to have some, answers and to
40:18
Speaker 3: have those particular people who cost you thirteen fourteen years
40:24
Speaker 3: of your life and all of the trauma that you
40:28
Speaker 3: experienced while you were in prison answer for.
40:31
Speaker 4: That. YEAH i don't even know what to. SAY i
40:34
Speaker 4: just thank god things had happened the way they did
40:37
Speaker 4: at the, end you, Know i'm just happy to be
40:41
Speaker 4: living my life not inside that hole. ANYMORE i can't understand.
40:46
Speaker 4: IT i will never understand.
40:48
Speaker 5: It so.
40:51
Speaker 4: That's about ALL i got to. Say thank you for
40:53
Speaker 4: having me on this, Show, liz thank you for being here.
40:57
Speaker 4: Analog you, KNOW i don't know what else. IS i
40:59
Speaker 4: thought i'd ever eat a big bac. AGAIN i think
41:01
Speaker 4: that's WHY i like big.
41:02
Speaker 5: Macs you, Know i'll lead a big back with.
41:05
Speaker 1: You.
41:05
Speaker 4: Dan all, right, well, yeah we could just do super.
41:07
Speaker 5: Burgers, no let's we'll get distracted by a turkey. Dinner
41:10
Speaker 5: let's go get a Big.
41:11
Speaker 4: Mac they got double. Ones, Oh.
41:13
Speaker 6: Chris thank you for listening To Wrongful.
41:23
Speaker 2: Conviction you can listen to.
41:25
Speaker 1: This and all The lava For good podcasts one week
41:28
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41:31
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