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You Only Think You Have The Evidence Broken Plea From Christopher Whitcomb · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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Speaker 1: The podcast network is called Arrow dot Net r r
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Speaker 1: oe dot Net. Twenty different podcasts to choose from. I
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Speaker 1: mean they are all over the place. Any program director
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Speaker 1: would say, I don't know, man, this guy's all over
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Speaker 1: the place.
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Speaker 2: We need to pull him back.
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Speaker 1: Ah ah, because I know what your choice is. I
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Speaker 1: know what you want in your life when you're driving
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Speaker 1: in the car or you're sitting at work. One of
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Speaker 1: the hottest features is Forest Stories. I live in a forest.
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Speaker 1: I've been here for over thirty two years. The question
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Speaker 1: is what's the story? Do we know anything about this
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Speaker 1: lay of land that had people on it long before
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Speaker 1: I got here? For stories only on Arrow dot Net
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Speaker 1: r r oe dot Net. Enjoy your exploration, dude. I
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Speaker 1: can't thank you enough for doing this book. And the
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Speaker 1: reason why is because as a broadcaster, I've been a
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Speaker 1: part of this story way back in the beginning, from
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Speaker 1: people that were podcasters to journalists and and so for
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Speaker 1: you to release this book, you give us something here
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Speaker 1: we haven't had yet. It's a different point of view
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Speaker 1: and direction, and I can't thank you enough for giving
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Speaker 1: us broken plea.
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Speaker 2: Thanks, Errol. I really appreciate talking to you. I do.
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Speaker 1: It's one of those stories that I don't know why
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Speaker 1: time won't forget it like everything else. And I think
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Speaker 1: it's because we're all searching for something and what is
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Speaker 1: it you're looking for? Because I know that mine is
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Speaker 1: probably different as well, because I'm from the Pacific Northwest.
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Speaker 1: This is in my territory of the world.
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Speaker 3: Look, I think the reason we're talking about it is
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Speaker 3: it's a horrific crime. It was an emotional investment by people,
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Speaker 3: not just in the United States but around the world.
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Speaker 3: Everybody tuned in to the horror of it. I've got
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Speaker 3: four kids. We look at these college students and say,
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Speaker 3: we all went through that stage in life, and who
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Speaker 3: could envision waking up at four o'clock in the morning
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Speaker 3: and having this type of evil violate that world? And
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Speaker 3: it resonates because it's so traumatic, but it lingers because
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Speaker 3: nobody in lieu of a trial ever got answers to
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Speaker 3: the qu questions that were so compelling.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, and the residents of Moscow, in the
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Speaker 1: way that they bring their story, you can feel their
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Speaker 1: hearts beating while they're talking because it still affects them
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Speaker 1: and so you being right there firsthand, My god, dude,
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Speaker 1: how did you protect your own heart.
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Speaker 2: Boy, what a tough question. I spent in the research
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Speaker 2: phase of this.
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Speaker 3: I spent six hours or six months of twelve hour days,
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Speaker 3: seven days a week, mired in the evidence, and it's horrific.
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Speaker 3: I think that what helped is my career in law enforcement,
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Speaker 3: my careers in investigative journalists. But I've also lived another
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Speaker 3: life in war and combat and conflict around the world.
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Speaker 3: So if anybody had to take this on, I think
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Speaker 3: I was best suited in terms of being able to
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Speaker 3: handle that aspect of it.
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Speaker 1: And listeners need to understand this evidence was not always
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Speaker 1: readily available to everybody. I mean, you guys had to
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Speaker 1: have a patience kind of wait and see type of
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Speaker 1: thing as to what the courts were going to be
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Speaker 1: able to release.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's true, but a lot of the I
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Speaker 3: would say, when I started this book, almost everything in
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Speaker 3: the book had not been seen before.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god.
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Speaker 3: Then a lot of it has been released. But there
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Speaker 3: is a great deal of information in this book, and
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Speaker 3: I mean a great deal of information, four hundred and
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Speaker 3: thirty page book that people have never seen before. And
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Speaker 3: I use the information itself, you know, I present this
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Speaker 3: book as if I were an FBI agent presenting a
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Speaker 3: grand jury prosecution. I say, here's the evidence, you make
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Speaker 3: up the decision, and I hand it over to the reader.
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Speaker 3: It is many people will be shocked at what they
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Speaker 3: did not know about this case.
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Speaker 1: You know, and you being in law enforcement, and I'm
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Speaker 1: just a broadcaster. But the thing about it is, though,
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Speaker 1: is I feel like that Brian set into pace and
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Speaker 1: tone as to anybody who's committed a crime anymore, go
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Speaker 1: the cold weight that Brian presented. Do not say anything,
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Speaker 1: don't have a reaction, because it seems like everybody beyond
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Speaker 1: Brian has been a cold bastard.
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Speaker 2: Erro hit on the head.
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Speaker 3: I mean, it starts with what everybody remembers of this case,
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Speaker 3: which is Brian Coberger's standing up when he first pled
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Speaker 3: not guilty. He didn't even do it, his attorney did.
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Speaker 3: He stared blank face in that core proceeding. And that's
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Speaker 3: what we know of him to this day. Is Brian
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Speaker 3: Coberger a very strange dude. Unequivocally, as a matter of fact.
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Speaker 3: One of the things I found was a e motion
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Speaker 3: in lemony filed by his attorney, An Taylor, before Judge Hipler,
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Speaker 3: where she asked the court to stipulate that the prosecution
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Speaker 3: could not call him a psychopath. So that's what we're
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Speaker 3: dealing with. We're dealing with the perception of him as
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Speaker 3: a person that was going to play out in court.
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Speaker 3: So we can stipulate the Brian Coberger behaviorally is a
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Speaker 3: very odd dude. We could also say he was a
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Speaker 3: very bright guy. He was a PhD candidate in criminology.
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Speaker 3: He was a grown man, an educated man, a very
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Speaker 3: smart man with very odd characteristics, and that certainly might
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Speaker 3: have might have come up in trial.
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Speaker 2: When it did not go to trial and he went
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Speaker 2: away to prison, we never got to look at any
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Speaker 2: of that.
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Speaker 1: I want to sit down with a lot of these
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Speaker 1: armchair quarterback, you know, true crime people, and have them
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Speaker 1: go through your book broken Plea, because I know they're
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Speaker 1: gonna sit there and they're gonna yellow highlight the dang
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Speaker 1: hell out of that book because they're also looking for
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Speaker 1: something here, because it's still one of those situations. First
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Speaker 1: of all, you've got a split level home here for
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Speaker 1: how did he even know this? How did he know
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Speaker 1: what room to go into? And really and like like
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Speaker 1: you even put in this book, why we're two still living.
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Speaker 1: I don't understand. I mean, I got compassion for them,
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Speaker 1: but what happened and was he scared away?
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Speaker 2: First of all, great, great.
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Speaker 3: Great start to this, And I've got to bring up
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Speaker 3: something that I think is important. Three and a half
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Speaker 3: years after the fact, people still talk about this case.
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Speaker 3: During those three and a half years, everybody from Reddit
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Speaker 3: discussions to mainstream media have come up with their own
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Speaker 3: ideas about what happened. You know, there are a million
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Speaker 3: people know this case. There are probably nine hundred and
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Speaker 3: ninety nine thousand different theory co opinions of what's going on.
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Speaker 3: All of that to date has been based on what
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Speaker 3: we've seen in a court proceeding buried in a gag order,
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Speaker 3: meaning other than the dateline piece about the video and
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Speaker 3: a couple other things, people know very very very little.
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Speaker 3: Then this book comes out and it threatens a lot
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Speaker 3: of those narratives because they say, well, you know this,
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Speaker 3: you wouldn't believe.
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Speaker 2: The stuff up that I've heard. That's in nature of
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Speaker 2: the world we live in. All I ask.
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Speaker 3: All I ask that is, in order to have a
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Speaker 3: meaningful conversation, look at the evidence that I present, not mine,
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Speaker 3: but the prosecutions and what we've seen from the defense.
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Speaker 3: I lay this thing is based on documents. This is
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Speaker 3: not a bunch of theories. This is the documents and
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Speaker 3: an opportunity to come up with it. So great conversation.
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Speaker 3: That's how we move forward as a society. But let's
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Speaker 3: look at the facts.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, your honesty is spot on, because you
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Speaker 1: are so right. We all have our own interpretation. We
6:56
Speaker 1: have been to every clickbait site. We think we've got
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Speaker 1: it all down. We are the masters. Yet it's like, no,
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Speaker 1: we're not. And that's what's your book here, broken plea
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Speaker 1: is going to introduce to people. It's like, we're okay
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Speaker 1: to admit that we're wrong. But now let's get back
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Speaker 1: on track.
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Speaker 3: I say that, Listen, I'm not saying I'm right because
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Speaker 3: I don't say anything.
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Speaker 2: I have no theories because I don't say anything in.
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Speaker 3: This book about what I think. I say. I don't
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Speaker 3: care what your theory is. Look at this information and
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Speaker 3: let's look at it and adjustin and come up with
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Speaker 3: new theories and new ideas based on information that people
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Speaker 3: haven't had.
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Speaker 2: If somebody wants to take a shot for.
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Speaker 3: Any reason, whatever, because if they haven't read the book,
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Speaker 3: I don't care if you read this book, like this
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Speaker 3: conversation we're having now, if we read this book and
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Speaker 3: talk about this information, I think we're going to move
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Speaker 3: in meaningful ways toward truth.
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Speaker 2: And that was my objective.
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Speaker 1: See, I guess I'm the freak because to me, it's
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Speaker 1: not a book you read, it's a book you study.
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Speaker 1: I would into this thing with completely a different point
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Speaker 1: of direction in view. And maybe it's because I've done
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Speaker 1: all these interviews for the past few years, but still
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Speaker 1: I went in there expecting exactly what you gave me,
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Speaker 1: and that is answers or things that are going to
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Speaker 1: make me dig even deeper. Now you are that seed
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Speaker 1: that really pushes us forward.
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Speaker 3: I can't thank er, er. I talked to a lot
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Speaker 3: of people. I can't thank you enough for saying that
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Speaker 3: this is the seed that pushes forward my intention and
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Speaker 3: spending a year of my life working on this particular book,
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Speaker 3: and this is my sixth book that I'm spending year
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Speaker 3: in my life hoping somebody like you would say that
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Speaker 3: I want to engage with the reader and looking at
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Speaker 3: these things and finding based on documents and the truth,
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Speaker 3: where we go from here. I can't thank you enough
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Speaker 3: of that perspective.
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Speaker 1: Well, you also put us in a what would I do? Situation?
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Speaker 1: Because I mean, I really did sit there for the
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Speaker 1: longest time, and I wrote about it in my journal.
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Speaker 1: I would it take her or him eight hours to
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Speaker 1: report this? When you when you were an eyewitness of
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Speaker 1: this situation? Eight hours? How many times do I grab
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Speaker 1: that smartphone when I see a car accident and it's wait,
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Speaker 1: I could have waited eight hours or do something here,
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Speaker 1: but I didn't. That's that's why I'm saying what I
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Speaker 1: want to know the person's heart that waited eight hours.
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Speaker 3: Well, here's where we Here's where we get into the emotion.
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Speaker 3: It's an incredibly emotional case. Yes, horrible crimes, families, small
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Speaker 3: community college campus, a public incensed with the rage and
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Speaker 3: violence of the crimes themselves.
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Speaker 2: I've got four kids.
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Speaker 3: We all this case resonates three and a half years
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Speaker 3: later because we feel it, We feel it in our
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Speaker 3: own lives. And then we come down to the one
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Speaker 3: question you just asked about the two witnesses and why
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Speaker 3: they didn't call police those hours. And I try to
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Speaker 3: differentiate between the emotion and the logical questions. And I
9:55
Speaker 3: understand they were young women, they had been drinking, they
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Speaker 3: had their own motivations. I don't say anything about that.
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Speaker 3: What I say is what did and did not happen
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Speaker 3: on record? What does the body camera show, What does
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Speaker 3: the nine one one call show? What does the evidence show?
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Speaker 3: How does that comport with what we believe in lieu
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Speaker 3: of a trial when nobody ever gets to explain it.
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Speaker 2: That's what I want to do.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, you brought up the bodycam exactly. You're
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Speaker 1: You're so spot on when it comes to that, because
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Speaker 1: that so many people have drawn their own conclusions without
10:28
Speaker 1: even jumping into this book. And that's why they've got
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Speaker 1: If they're going to sit there and watch those bodycam videos,
10:32
Speaker 1: they've got to come to this book and get a
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Speaker 1: better vision of what really happens here and stay out
10:37
Speaker 1: of their imagination.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't need to imagine. Listen, everybody has imagination.
10:43
Speaker 3: That's why people talk about these things and have opinions.
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Speaker 3: I say, listen, don't listen, don't don't listen to anything.
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Speaker 3: I say, just listen to the nine to one one
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Speaker 3: call and just watch that first hour with officers Dounez
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Speaker 3: body camera. We he lays out everything report after and
11:00
Speaker 3: you can see how these things change the body camera
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Speaker 3: shows one thing, the reports after the fact show another,
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Speaker 3: and I point out that's human. That's the nature of
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Speaker 3: a law enforcement investigation. It happens, it will always happen.
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Speaker 3: We have the magic gift in this case of that
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Speaker 3: first hour where we see things that we can put
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Speaker 3: in context later when we get the forensics back, when
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Speaker 3: we get the lab reports back, when we get the
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Speaker 3: prosecution narrative back, then we can use that as a reference.
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Speaker 2: You're so right.
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Speaker 3: We have a gift in this case looking at it forensically,
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Speaker 3: and that is video photographs what actually happened, not what's
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Speaker 3: translated through a report.
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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Christopher Witcomb coming
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Speaker 1: up next, Broken Plea, the experience. Oh it's now in
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Speaker 1: your hands. We are back with Christopher Witcomb. Aren't you
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Speaker 1: changing the game of true crime? Because it seems to
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Speaker 1: be that true crime is the hottest thing going now.
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Speaker 1: But what you're doing is is that you're reaching beyond
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Speaker 1: just the true crime. It's like you're going, Okay, I
12:04
Speaker 1: see what's going on here, Let's go get the real story.
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Speaker 1: And that takes courage to be able to say that.
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Speaker 1: When you've got all of this stuff that's going on
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Speaker 1: around us, and here comes Christopher and I'm going I
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Speaker 1: got it. Well, I'm just gonna use evidence here. You
12:16
Speaker 1: guys come up with your own conclusion.
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Speaker 3: Look, I really I appreciate that, because that really is
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Speaker 3: what I want to do at this stage in life. Look,
12:24
Speaker 3: I've lived a pretty crazy life. We don't have to
12:27
Speaker 3: go into it. But I've done a lot of different
12:28
Speaker 3: things in life. And one thing I did not have
12:31
Speaker 3: to do at this stage in life is write a
12:33
Speaker 3: book that would cause this kind of frail.
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Speaker 2: That is one thing that I did not have to do.
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Speaker 3: But I look at it and say, all right, look,
12:41
Speaker 3: if somebody has to take the has to be the
12:44
Speaker 3: lightning rod for all that comes out of this, I
12:46
Speaker 3: guess I'm strong enough to do that. But I'm doing
12:49
Speaker 3: it at least from a position of experience. I worked
12:52
Speaker 3: longer as an investigative journalist in life than I did
12:55
Speaker 3: as an FBI agent. I did both, But you know
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Speaker 3: I've written. I've started ou as a news reporter. I
13:03
Speaker 3: was an op ed writer at The New York Times,
13:06
Speaker 3: staff writer at GQ Magazine. I had my own television
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Speaker 3: show on CNBC with Martha McCallum, who's now at Fox.
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Speaker 3: I've done this from both sides of this of a case,
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Speaker 3: and I look and say, is my opinion any more
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Speaker 3: than an opinion? Maybe not, But do I have the
13:22
Speaker 3: experience to at least have a say in the matter
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Speaker 3: and in my opinion, yes, So I say, if that's
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Speaker 3: the case, can we do this together? Can we go
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Speaker 3: back to this evidence and generate a new way of
13:34
Speaker 3: looking at true crime putting truth. Let's talk about the evidence,
13:40
Speaker 3: which is the criminal justice program, not theories, conjecture, emotions.
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Speaker 2: I think this.
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Speaker 3: I think that let's look at the facts, let's look
13:48
Speaker 3: at the evidence, and let's look more constructively moving forward,
13:53
Speaker 3: at how we get involved in these cases.
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Speaker 1: You just described what every program director and consultant would
14:00
Speaker 1: always try to convince us to do. Get it off
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Speaker 1: you and get it onto them. Go for a story
14:07
Speaker 1: that's going to affect people, Because you're right, we could
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Speaker 1: sit there and concentrate and put all of our energy
14:12
Speaker 1: into our investigation. No, you're giving it to us. It's
14:15
Speaker 1: like you're the relinquishing of this book. Broken plea is
14:19
Speaker 1: you're saying, here's the evidence. I did the work for you. Now,
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Speaker 1: now let's change the narrative here.
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Speaker 2: That's what I was hoping er, that's what I was
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Speaker 2: hoping for.
14:29
Speaker 3: People get I do you know once this move past
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Speaker 3: the podcast crowd, Yeah, and I as well, well meaning people.
14:35
Speaker 3: But my gosh, there are twenty thousand true crime podcasts
14:38
Speaker 3: in the United States and they all have an opinion.
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Speaker 2: Right. Am I willing to engage, Yes, one hundred percent.
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Speaker 3: But I'm willing to engage if they read the book
14:45
Speaker 3: and we're actually talking about the same case. And that's
14:48
Speaker 3: not always the way it's played out. But I do
14:50
Speaker 3: look and say, can we look at this now in
14:52
Speaker 3: a meaningful way and generate the same discussions based on
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Speaker 3: new information? People don't know what they don't know, And
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Speaker 3: I think if I could get one thing moving forward
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Speaker 3: out of this time in my life, it is meaningful
15:07
Speaker 3: conversation in a new way, looking at at the criminal
15:14
Speaker 3: justice system, this case in particular.
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Speaker 1: In a very very creative way. Aren't you saying? I mean,
15:19
Speaker 1: because this is what I got with the vibe on it.
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Speaker 1: It's almost like you're saying you don't need to go
15:24
Speaker 1: up and talk with the people from Moscow anymore because
15:27
Speaker 1: you now know the story. Don't turn this into a
15:30
Speaker 1: tourist trap. There's nothing here for you. Let these people
15:33
Speaker 1: finally find some peace. Here is the evidence, figure it.
15:36
Speaker 2: Out, Yes, and there is nothing.
15:39
Speaker 3: There is nothing in this book that suggests in any
15:42
Speaker 3: way that anybody would go back to Moscow. The house
15:45
Speaker 3: is torn down, the prosecutor's moved on, everybody's gone about
15:48
Speaker 3: their lives. There's nothing left to find in Moscow or
15:52
Speaker 3: with the families. And I, very intentionally in this book
15:56
Speaker 3: did not reach out to anyone. I did not want
15:58
Speaker 3: to their agony, and it is agony, and we can
16:01
Speaker 3: all imagine it. I don't want to look and say,
16:04
Speaker 3: what can we find out three and a half years
16:06
Speaker 3: after the fact. In my opinion, the answer is nothing.
16:09
Speaker 3: What can we find looking back at the evidence as
16:12
Speaker 3: it was taken contemporaneans to the crimes three and a
16:15
Speaker 3: half years ago, that's a different story. Let's look at
16:18
Speaker 3: the evidence as it was recorded. There was nothing else
16:21
Speaker 3: to dig up. It's already been done. We're not going
16:23
Speaker 3: to find anything. We're not going to find a knife
16:26
Speaker 3: in a ditch three and a half years after the fact. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And the only reason why I bring this up is
16:30
Speaker 1: because I did go to oj Simpson's house. I did
16:33
Speaker 1: go to the site where Susan Smith killed her two sons. Yeah,
16:35
Speaker 1: I did that, but I also felt unbelievably guilty of
16:40
Speaker 1: being there. And that's what I love about your book
16:43
Speaker 1: is that it's that you're giving me that opportunity to
16:45
Speaker 1: go there without going there, if you know what I mean.
16:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do.
16:49
Speaker 3: And I got to say, you know, this is such
16:50
Speaker 3: a great conversation just looking on my life and how
16:52
Speaker 3: weird it is. While I was writing this, I flew
16:54
Speaker 3: to la to do a show on a book that
16:57
Speaker 3: I put out last year. Back I get on the
17:00
Speaker 3: plane and I'm sitting next to this woman. It was
17:02
Speaker 3: Marsha Clark. And I sat and talked to Marsha Clark
17:05
Speaker 3: on the plane about this book and about what she
17:07
Speaker 3: had done, which was a coincidence, And you brought up
17:10
Speaker 3: the house. You're not gonna believe this, but I was
17:12
Speaker 3: actually in almost went over in a car and ended
17:16
Speaker 3: up in a fight outside Ojay's house on Rockingham, I
17:20
Speaker 3: don't know, maybe ten years ago, and went to prison
17:23
Speaker 3: as a victim in an assault with a deadly weapon
17:26
Speaker 3: case where the guy went and did did time in prison.
17:29
Speaker 2: So I've been involved.
17:31
Speaker 3: I've been assaulted in a deadly use of dea worst case,
17:36
Speaker 3: it all comes together. What I'm saying is my life experiences. I,
17:40
Speaker 3: oddly enough, have had life experiences that give me a
17:43
Speaker 3: perspective on different elements of this case.
17:45
Speaker 2: I think, in my opinion, that helps.
17:48
Speaker 1: Wow, Where can people go to find out more about you?
17:50
Speaker 1: Because twenty minutes is not enough, Christopher, It just isn't
17:53
Speaker 1: enough to spind with you because you've got, like you said,
17:55
Speaker 1: you've got that whole entire I want a book about
17:57
Speaker 1: you and everything that you've gone through because your style
18:01
Speaker 1: of writing. I would love to take it from day
18:03
Speaker 1: one all the way up to where you are right now. Oh,
18:05
Speaker 1: to watch the evolution of that.
18:07
Speaker 3: Well, it's odd you say that because I'm not pitching
18:09
Speaker 3: other books because they're old. But in two thousand and
18:12
Speaker 3: one I came out of the FBI. I wrote a
18:14
Speaker 3: memoir called Cold Zero because I was on this counter
18:17
Speaker 3: terrorism team, the hostage rescue team in the FBI. So
18:19
Speaker 3: the first was a memoir called Cold Zero. Then last
18:22
Speaker 3: August I released a book called Anonymous Mail with Random House,
18:26
Speaker 3: which is a second memoir. So it's all out there.
18:29
Speaker 3: I don't have many secrets. For better or word, people
18:32
Speaker 3: use them for you know. It's not always good being
18:36
Speaker 3: that public, but my life is quite public.
18:38
Speaker 2: Wow.
18:38
Speaker 1: Well you got to come back to this show anytime
18:40
Speaker 1: in the future. The door is always going to be
18:41
Speaker 1: open for you.
18:43
Speaker 2: I love talking to Ero. I can't thank you enough.
18:46
Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?
18:47
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you man, thank you San