Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 96: James Thacker - From Rugby Champion to Corporate Strategist: Tackling Life's Transitions and Scoring Career Goals

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96: James Thacker - From Rugby Champion to Corporate Strategist: Tackling Life's Transitions and Scoring Career Goals · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So I think, saying yes more to any opportunity, regardless of how big or small you think it is, if you think it's going to develop you as an individual, if you are interested in it, if you have this genuine motivation towards doing something, or if the opportunity presents itself, take it with both hands because it will pay dividends down the line.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Even if you don't think it's directly relevant to what you're doing right now or where you're looking to go in the short term, it will teach you something else about your life yourself that is going to, I guess, grow you as an individual and give you different perspectives.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: That will really pay dividends when you enter that professional fray.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: And also, you never know where opportunities are going to take you opportunities are going to take you.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: James, welcome to the show.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: It's good to have you here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Very good to be here, very exciting.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I've got limited podcast experience in the past, having run my own, but not at the scale of yours.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: So yeah, very excited to be in a more professional operation for sure.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: If you've been on a podcast before but on the other end of the microphone, then you'll know how this is just going to be a good conversation, very much about you and really try and understand a bit more about your journey and let those listening learn a little bit more about you and perhaps learn a bit more about themselves as well.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Sounds good.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's perfect.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we can jump straight in.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we already have.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: We're already in, joe.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I guess for many who don't know you, can you sort of give an introduction as to who you are today.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: What's happening?
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I'm James.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I work in gaming.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: So I work for a company called Unity.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Any kind of gaming fans will be aware that Unity is a game engine that you use to create games.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So I have lots of very interesting conversations on a day-to-day basis with creatives and people in the game industry that are looking to essentially bring something to life that is going to entertain loads of people and make them happy, which is a really nice place to be in.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: So that's what I do from a professional capacity.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I've been doing that for about two years now.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: I had a background after university in kind of IT sales, working for Hewlett Packard Enterprise as well, but alongside that I also play semi-professional rugby and I play for a club called Hertford.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I previously played before that for a club called Bishop Stortford, who are in the third tier of National League Rugby in England, so fairly high standard, but recently made the switch to more prioritize on the enjoyment of sport so that it can positively supplement my professional career, but all the while getting the outlet that sports people need, still taking to a competitive place.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: So still playing league rugby that kind of is now to a point where I'm at a stage in my life where I wanted to make it more about enjoyment than by playing the highest possible level, whatever costs that may incur physically and mentally.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: So I've made that switch this last summer and yeah, it's been an interesting journey to this point.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: But I'm sure we'll kind of delve into that a little bit deeper.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, we will.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Thanks very much for that intro and you know one of the bits as we're chatting before and you know I've been thinking about this conversation is for many people being, you know, previously certainly being an athlete, being a pro athlete, elite level, like you're saying, playing at a good standard was one of the sort of dream jobs that we would have growing up was one of the sort of dream jobs that we would have growing up.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I have to think that now, working in the gaming industry is also one of those dream jobs.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for a lot of people it certainly is, especially for a lot of young people, trying to crack or getting into the game industry is quite a challenge, because I think it's not necessarily enough to just really like gaming.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It's really important to go beyond that and build a CV and build a career that would be apt for what the games companies and game studios are after these days, and thankfully there is now a build-up of resources and help out there that will help people towards getting there, which is not necessarily something I had growing up and, to be honest, working for a games company was something that probably never entered my mind in terms of something that I thought to be possible.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: It really did happen.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Actually, it did come about as a result of conversation about sport with someone that works here.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I used to work with them at HPE.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: We were just catching up about rugby one day and how's life, and he mentioned how fantastic it was to work here and he said oh, actually there's an open role.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Would you like me to put your CV forward?
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: I went, of course.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, one thing led to another and he, through a bit of coaching and gentle guidance, he helped me along the journey and I've landed up unity so that that definitely shows the the power of networking.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Definitely, as we get into the conversation, will be one of my biggest pieces of advice for anyone that's looking to transition from sports, the professional world and maybe looking to something different.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: But it really does show that networking and staying in touch with people and nurturing relationships can really pay dividends when it comes to setting yourself up for the next step after sport that's really good, already jumping in straight away with the nuggets of wisdom.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: I quite like that.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: James, you know, I guess, before we talk then, about that, that transition steps, or the steps you had to take in order to get to where you are today.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Let's understand a bit more about you and rugby.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: So when you were playing rugby as a young lad, what were your aspirations then?
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I started playing rugby when I was eight years old.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: I was introduced to it by my dad and he took me to Bishop Stortford, so that is my local club.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I literally live a stone's throw away from the club and it's where I really developed a love for the game.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: As someone who was always bigger than the other kids, I then found it was something that I was very good at, and so when you find yourself being quite good at something, you then put more into it, and I kept developing.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: I've always been super into sports sport my entire life and it's something that I devoted a lot of time to and energy to all the way through growing up and especially into my teenage years.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I was then put into things like the county program at Hertfordshire and the School of Rugby before then being picked up by Saracens Academy.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Saracens ran out of the same place that the Hertfordshire School of Rugby ran and one of the Saracens coaches was watching one day and that was kind of my first, I guess, introduction or pull into the world of, I guess, academy sports and potentially looking to take things more professionally.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I think I was 14 and the coach of the EPDG program or the academy at the time said would you like to come and train with us this summer and at the time I didn't really know what that meant, and I was almost catapulted at 14 into an under 18 environment with Saracens Academy for the summer, being beaten up to smithereens by these blokes that were a hell of a lot bigger than I was.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: So it was a bit of a rude awakening, but one that I hugely enjoyed being in that professional environment and that really, from an early point of view, gave me the motivation to take it seriously and take it on further.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: So I really relished my time with Saracens.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I was there from under 14 to under 18.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: I was captain for some of that time as well, towards when we were getting into the academy premiership times where we were playing kind of competitive league rugby in the academy.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I had opportunities to train with the Saracens first team as well mainly holding bags as a bit of fodder to be honest, but I still had the chances to like tackle people like Matt Stephens and Aaron Farrell was like a ridiculous world for me at the time.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: So it really did feel like becoming a professional rugby player was a possibility and in my teenage years from, I'd say, 14 to 18, that was the main focus for me.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: That was my reality, that the goal was to become a professional rugby player.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: All my energy was going towards that.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Obviously I wanted to supplement that with education but, to be honest, I've always been a sportsman at heart and academics was never something that really lit my fire at an early stage.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: And just to clarify, I mean, at that time you're with Saracens, you're playing 18s, you're playing for one of the top teams in the country.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: So when you talk about that proximity to becoming a pro, to turning professional in rugby, you couldn't have been much higher really, could you?
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: And especially captain the team?
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: yeah, to be honest it's difficult to explain because people who are not familiar with rugby at the time when I was telling them that I'm training with Saracens Academy and they look at you with puzzled faces because they don't know the rugby world and you try to equate it to football terms because it's a little bit more relatable, and at the time you'd say, oh, it's like the man United of rugby, but the fact that that was my reality was a hugely exciting thing being able to train in an environment.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: So we were stepping in the gym right after the first team players would finish their session.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: So you've got these absolute behemoths of men, people that you looked up to, people that you aspired to be in and around your environment, and it was something that was extremely exciting, but also potentially to my detriment.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: It was all-encompassing in terms of my mentality and it was something that it was like that was my be-all and end-all, and I definitely stuck a lot of eggs in that basket.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Stuck all your eggs in one basket.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I think in terms of how I envisaged my life being, it only looked like rugby after school and I thought, well, yeah, university would be a bit of a fallback.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Didn't really know what I wanted to do from a professional capacity.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: So it was in my mind.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: It was like rugby or bus, like anything else, seemed like almost like a failure, which, at the time, is an incredible amount of pressure to put a teenager under, especially when you're trying to navigate the world of hormones like teenage angst, uh, rebellion, relationships and school all at the same time.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: You're trying to navigate your way through that and no one in my family had been anywhere near that level.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: I had really good mentors that were with Saracens, like being able to be mentored by Richard Hill who won the World Cup in 2003.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Absolute dream for me.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: And I had fantastic mentors who were in and around that environment.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: But in terms of then, when you step out of that rugby environment, you had no one that had been there before.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: So no one really telling you oh well, you know, just have a think about this option and just have a think about that option.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: You kind of entered into this echo chamber where people would respond to the energy that you were giving out by reciprocating that back and going oh yeah, that is a real possibility and that's what you should focus on.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: That was headspace at that time and you were.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You're going to say earlier what?
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: What do you think you gave away as a result of that?
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: What was became regretful in some respect?
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: you look back I say my my time.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Like my regrets at the time very minimal.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: To be honest, I don't regret the time I spent in training.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I gave up all my summers as a teenager pretty much to training, which then led to potentially me not nurturing some relationships as much with friendships and not going to parties.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: You miss out on that a lot.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: So the social element I was probably lacking.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: But I think the lessons that it taught me and the values that it instilled in me, the discipline and the want to excel at the highest level, all of these things were fantastic for me.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: So I think there are so many lessons that I can take from that time and I don't have too many regrets.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'd do too much differently because when you're in that world, I think I was very aware at the time that I needed to take that opportunity.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like I wanted to be anywhere else.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: So even though I was missing the parties, I was like I don't care because I get to wear a Saracen shirt at the weekend.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: So it's okay.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: But obviously in hindsight I maybe would have liked to have given myself a little bit of more of a break where I'm rolling into class, you know eight o'clock in the morning, I'm rolling into class.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: You know, eight o'clock in the morning, I'm absolutely shattered because I was getting back from training at like 11 o'clock and then starting homework on a Tuesday night.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: So, you know, trying to manage my energy level, trying to manage the expectations of myself and potentially from those around me as well, was something that I could have potentially done better.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: But I think all of this is so much easier to say with the benefit of hindsight, right yes, it is.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: It is and and I I love hindsight I also love embracing, as you've said there, what could be regretful moments.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: You know we talk a lot about saying no regrets.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: In essence, there is a regret, but you still are able to look at that positively and learn from those moments, recognizing yeah, I missed out, I didn't do this, I didn't do that, things could have been different, but here's what I learned, and so that positive attitudes that you take to that is what I guess, as we'll hear, sets you up to, I guess, to thrive later on in life as well yeah for sure, and I think, something that I have only learned recently, especially with going through an acl reconstruction last summer.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Um, it's extremely like difficult time as a sportsman.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: You spend it out injured, as any sportsman will tell you, and I've gone through quite a bit of turmoil with my knee over the last couple of years with, you know, a little bit of misdiagnosis, problems and stuff like that.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Um, but I I I recognized that it's important to seek the opportunity in the setback, or seek opportunity out of the challenge which led me to take on more coaching responsibilities.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: That also you know.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: So instead of me moping about the fact that you know I just have to do physio and I'm not able to play, it's like, well, actually I have more time now, so what does that present an option to do?
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: So reframing your situation and then turning it into something more positive can be way more beneficial for you from the long term, and you know it can present you so many life opportunities rather than just fixating on maybe not, not what's not there yeah, absolutely.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: So coming back to to that story, in a sense you you had everything set on that professional contract, that full-time career what happened when I came to under 18s and I was in the second year of a levels.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I was being told by mentors and those around me at the club that I was one of the front runners for a contract come the end of the year.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: But I think, to be honest, a lot of the games that I played for Saracens, I was just completely obsessed with this idea of I have to have a good game, otherwise I'm not getting a contract, and to a certain degree, I think that maybe psyched me out, that maybe, maybe lose presence of mind that I needed in games to perform to the best of my ability.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: I was too focused on the end result rather than the process and and being present in the games, and I think that led me to maybe not fulfill my potential in that regard.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I still had gains, but not necessarily at the level required to get a contract, but I still felt hopeful.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: But essentially, what happened was they called me in from school, so I was at boarding school at the time.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: They called me into St Albans, which is where S Harrison is headquartered, and they basically sat me down in the morning and said James, we're not going to offer you a contract essentially.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: And they basically sat me down in the morning and said James, we're not going to offer you a contract essentially, which the floor then fell out from beneath me.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: To be honest, in that conversation I was a little bit shell-shocked.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't really know what to think and feel.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I felt like the years and years and years of my life in the gym and training, pre-seasons, giving away the time.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: It almost felt like a betrayal.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: It was almost like I then was in an immediate like if you have a comparable feeling of having like a death in the family.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: It was almost like, oh my god, it's all of a sudden it's gone.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And you're like shit, what now?
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: And so it was difficult to come to terms with.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: And then that day I remember I literally got back to school and I think I got a taxi back.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I was straight into that lesson, first period, and I'm like now I'm doing economics.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: So, from being told that essentially my future is gone, and now I'm like being asked to concentrate on my a-levels and then, like you, come into this reality, like, okay, I actually have to smash academics now james, you were just to get a basis on this.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: You're 17, 17, 18.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: You're having this meeting at the club at I don't know, 6, 7am in the morning.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Who was with you at that time?
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Who went in the room with you?
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: It was just my dad.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So my dad, my rugby knowledge and I guess the knowledge of the inner workings of sport and professional sport coaches surpassed his probably by that point.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: So dad was sort of like just there to support me.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: He's extremely knowledgeable about sport, but I think in that time he only would hear the things that I tell him.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: And so when he's being told all the things I've been told, which is, you're a front runner, you're doing well with this, that and the other, I think it came as much as a shock to him and obviously the disappointment from his side was visible.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: But obviously he was more disappointed for me than anything else because he knows how much it took to get there but also you know it took a lot from the whole family is you know, sports is such a team when it comes to people, when you're at an early age, your parents taking you to training, there's like a whole support network and it's as people driving you to make this dream a reality.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: So when it doesn't happen for you, it almost doesn't happen for them as well.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: So I think it hit us both really hard and to try and pick ourselves up from that disappointment was a really difficult thing.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Like me and my dad have shared unbelievable memories when it comes to sport.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: We've had like the highest of highs.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: So I actually made the England under-16s team and he came to pick me up from training when we found out that I was basically going to be part of the squad and I don't know if you've seen Only Fools and Horses when Del Boy and Rodney are celebrating in the car after they find out how much that watch is worth.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: When I told him that I was in the team, it was literally like the car was shaking.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: We had this unbelievable drive about two hours home, just like smiling ear to ear.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: You couldn't believe it.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: So he's been there on the whole journey with me and then, yeah, he obviously saw that kind of professional conversation at least not not necessarily come to a complete end at that point, but it did feel like a a really like slam on a chapter, um, and it was.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: it was a difficult moment, and so you said it was difficult to pick yourself up, pick the family up from that moment.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: It sounds like economics had something to do with giving you the harsh realities of life again.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Was it too late for you to smash, as you said, to smash academics?
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: no, I think so.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Thankfully, despite what I said earlier about academics not really being my jam, I I did move to a sixth form or a school for sixth form that I got a scholarship to, thankfully, due to my experience with England and that really the huge focus is on academics they don't allow you to not let it be and so I really did step it up and actually my work ethic came from that experience, I think.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: When it comes to academics and applying myself from a work point of view and it was also I sunk myself into areas which I had loads of enjoyment.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: So business studies, economics I saw huge enjoyment from and I really enjoyed those subjects.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: So following something that I was passionate about was really helped me out in that regard.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, I think from then on it was all about kind of just making sure I finished really strong with my kind of sixth form studies in my A-levels and then that led me getting into Loughborough University at the other side of A-levels, so it was a positive outcome.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: In the end I probably underperformed a little bit on my A-levels.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I got an ABB when I think the requirements for the course were AAB, but because of my rugby background I think that requirements for the course were A, a, b but because of my rugby background, I think that did help me because Loughborough is obviously such a strong sporting university, so I think that definitely helped me along.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Do you know?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it, that success that you had in sport 16s England being part of Saracens you mentioned early on the way, talking about sport helped open up the opportunity you're sitting in right now, but it also helped move you forward to get you into a good school.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: So when you were slightly distracted, you still kept up to that right level and indeed, when the perhaps the grades weren't quite where they needed to be, again sport or rugby comes in again and it helps just to to creak open the door just a little bit more to give you that well, second chance, that next opportunity.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah 100.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I think it speaks to how much sport can teach you as a person, the values that is instilled in you.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: These are values that are so valued by society, by companies, by organizations, because they teach you things that I guess you you learn things yourself that other people just can't teach you.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: And when you're in the sporting things yourself that other people just can't teach you.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: And when you're in the sporting environment, when it's hot, when you're really under the pressure, you learn so much about yourself, how you interact with other people, how you're going to perform.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Are you going to double down and do the work?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Are you going to shy away from it?
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: The amount of life lessons that you learn through the process of sport is so invaluable to so many organizations.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: I think actually that's why sports people are among the most desired in terms of candidates when you're applying for jobs, academics, all that kind of stuff, because they teach you a lot of non-tangibles or things that you can't be taught by other people.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, and you know that learning experience, or the learning experiences that you had as a player, you were able to translate those across academically, giving you that discipline.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: What was that university life like for you?
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, from.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: So university life was an interesting experience for me, to say the very least.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Um, so after that experience for Saracens, I'll be totally honest, I completely fell out of love with rugby.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: There was a huge sense of injustice, like I said before betrayal.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: I saw other peers around me who I'd seen never step in the gym, getting contracts at different clubs or on the international seven circuit or something like that, and it just left me with this bitter feeling.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of immaturity in me at that time.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: And going to university, I definitely don't think I took the opportunities that were presented in front of me from the very.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes you don't realize how good sport is until it's gone.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Also, I wanted to explore other areas in my life.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So that summer I think it was the first summer in my life at 18 years old, where I hadn't had to dedicate most of it to rugby, so I could afford to reach out to people, can form new relationships and enjoy my life in a different capacity.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: But then that also led me to missing the first year pre-season with Loughborough, which I don't think went down too well because I'd already met the DOR at Loughborough University and I think we'd had some pretty the director of rugby sorry, sorry for some rugby speak, but yeah, I think we've had progressive conversations about me coming in making a good impact.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: He'd obviously known my background with Saracens and that kind of thing and then almost in one summer my love for the game just went through the floor and it led to me making some decisions that prioritised my social life over my professional rugby life, and so that probably put me on a little bit of a back foot coming into uni to be honest.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: So that put you on a back foot from rugby perspective, in terms of the socialising that you had turned your back on earlier in your life.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I guess you were trying to play a bit of catch-up as well, is what I'm getting reading between the lines.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean first year year.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Anyone that knows me personally will know that I did a hell of a lot of catching up first year, to the point where I had to retake some exams in the summer.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: That's how much socializing was done.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: So probably you know, if I were to give anyone some advice for the first year, like please don't do what I did, which is go too far the other way, like you you know, know you have some kind of mediation.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think you know I again say I have very few regrets in my life because a lot of these things are learning experiences.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: And so now, at the other side, I am where I am as a result of these experiences and despite maybe not necessarily applying myself fully in that first year when it comes to rugby and taking myself away and doing a bit more social, I now understand the risks of doing that.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I understand that you know what that's going to mean to me in the long term, because it didn't bring me joy in the long term.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: It didn't bring me that deep fulfillment that I know that rugby brings me and all of these kind of worthwhile activities that align to my core values.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I think I lost myself for a little while.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: But with the help of you know, friends and support network and then also a lot of self-introspection, I then kind of re-found myself and and found rugby again, thankfully, but that more came after uni.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you're at uni, what you know?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Skipping or moving on from that period, what were you trying to achieve off the back of university?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: So the narratives I got from saracens at the time when they let me go is go to loughborough, keep developing your rugby and then, if you're good enough, we'll pick you back up again.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: So there was always this little thing in the back of my mind.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: But if I get my break at loughborough then there's always a chance that it could happen for me.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: But I think at the time, because of the lack of guidance that you get at university, I didn't know how to do that.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't know how to get back on that path and I think again, this probably comes down to a little bit of immaturity.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I wasn't recognizing the opportunities presented in front of me.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: So I think to a certain degree I was thinking well, I'd love to get back in that realm and in that conversation maybe carve out a different path for myself to back to professional sport.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: But at the same time I knew that, okay, the likelihood of that has now dropped so significantly.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I need to now prioritize my education, and that was definitely the stance I took second year and third year.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But I also took a placement year in between those, because I knew that I had to set myself up for a professional career after uni as well.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: So kind of supplementing both ideas.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: So what would have made a difference for you then?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Do you think in terms of knowing what you had to do for rugby, because what you've described in terms of academic was you knew what needed to be done, or maybe you followed a path of what needed to be done to set you up for professional life after uni?
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I think some mentorship of people that had been in similar positions to me would have been huge.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: To have some resources to have stories to learn from, from a podcast to learn from would have been fantastic.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I would love and I've had an idea for for a while to and I am involved in mentorship from a professional capacity.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: I'd love to broaden that out to more of a men's health and men's mental health space where we look at lots of different areas of society.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: But mentorship is so powerful in terms of allowing people to learn from your previous mistakes, but also talking things through guidance, allowing yourself to talk about ideas and creating a space to help them work out their own answers, and I just don't think that that's what I had at the time.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I think when you're surrounded by peers who are also trying to work out life and figure out what's next for them and what they want to do with life, it's difficult to then give someone else advice on exactly the same thing.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: So I think some gentle mentorship or some guidance during that time would have been great for me, especially in that sporting realm.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, unfortunately it wasn't there at the time.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: No, I suppose not, and being in a academic environment, I guess that's one of the things that's put upon you a little bit more.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Was you know how to succeed at university and how to set yourself up?
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: What's next what?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: What did you study at uni?
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So I studied economics and finance, the goal being to set myself up for a cushy career in finance or like an investment banker.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: My dad was in the finance realm and I was like, well, that looks like a great life, let's go for that, not actually understanding what that truly entails, which spoiler alert everyone that wants to do economics or finance at uni it's a lot of maths.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: So if you're shit at maths like me, don't do it.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: It's really really hard.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: If you're shit at maths like me, don't do it, because it's really really hard.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: If you don't like maths, I do not recommend.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: But uh, yeah.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But then after well, especially after my placement year, which was a very kind of pivotal, I think, moment in my life, it changed a lot coming out of uni.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: How did you get your first job?
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: so it kind of lends to that placement year conversation and I went.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: When you're going through placement applications, it's a lengthy, lengthy process and I was getting a hell of a lot of knockbacks from some of the biggest financial corporations.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: But I did have a moment where I sat back and go why am I only applying to companies in this sector, like I'm interested in different things?
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I'm Like I'm interested in different things, I'm interested in technology, I'm interested in, you know, and you try and find areas which are going to, you know, the industries that are going to have some longevity.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: And it led me to apply into a placement year with Hewlett Packard Enterprise, who specialize in kind of enterprise-grade technology and business-to-business solutions.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I learned on that year a hell of a lot about the professional space, how to conduct yourself in a corporate setting, sales in general, and just a wealth of experience from people that have been there and done it in the industry.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: During that year I think one of the most valuable things I did was just network, network, network all the time, just volunteer yourself, yes, but what does?
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: network mean just volunteer yourself?
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, but what is a network?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: I think my definition of network is branching out and brokering real relationships with people, rather than just adding them on LinkedIn.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: It's really about finding a kind of mutual like this is what I can offer you, can you offer me something in return, especially from a professional capacity, but really getting to know people, offering your services, offering your time and really just being someone within an organization that people look to for specific things, being known for something, having that USP and then brokering connections out the back of that.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: So that's what I did a lot of during my placement year and that paid dividends coming out of uni, because when I was applying for a graduate role, HPE was a natural one that I then went to after the university and had a lot of great conversations with people that I already knew there, and then that really accelerated my process into getting a job straight back at HPE after I was done with uni.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: That's great, and so, as you got back into HP, you're out of university.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: What role did you want sport to play in your life again?
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I think to be honest, until maybe a year or a couple of years ago, I'd never given up on taking it professionally, so it was always going to be something that a sport I was going to take seriously.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I played at the National League, one level which I thought if that goes well and I can get back into form and put together some good performances, then who knows then where that can lead me, whether that leads me abroad and trying your you know hand in different.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: You know the French divisions, for instance.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I always had that element of me that something could still happen there.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: But at the same time I recognize the importance of building up a professional career, should that not become a reality.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: So sport and my professional life I wanted it always to work hand in hand.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I wanted my professional life always to be able to support my training regime, which thankfully it has this point.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I know not everyone is so fortunate that it does, but I wanted to.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: You know, physical well-being and sport has always played such a prominent part in my life and I needed that to be also a priority as well as building my career from a professional standpoint.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: So I'm interested.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: That balance then for you getting into, you know being an HP, starting to build a career, you know a professional career on that side At what point did you start to see this shift.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: In terms of sport is an enjoyment.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: There's a great you know, emotional, you know mental and physical benefit that you get from it.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Keep that going but then start to drive your off-field career.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: How did that shift start to appear for you?
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: When you think about work and how much of your life you spend at work, you start to really want to make the most of those opportunities and make that an enjoyable place to be.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: And for it to become an enjoyable place to be, you need it to be the days to be filled with things that you're truly motivated by, to your core and aligned to your values.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: When that starts happening, you then start to realize potentials that you didn't necessarily think possible before, and then you start to actually become more drawn to that side and go okay, this is something that I'm interested in, it's something that moves me, it motivates me and it's something that I can see myself doing day to day.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: That is going to hugely motivate me to get up and enjoy my day.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And when that becomes a reality, then maybe the weight I put on sport and how much that was important to me and if it didn't work out it was going to be such a detrimental effect have detrimental effects on me.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: It became less, and so maybe a little bit of a theme seeking out that opportunity in different areas where there are potential setbacks in my sporting side really paid dividends to how I'm enjoying my life and then trying to set myself up with the career where I'm going to be fulfilled day to day, and then sport is just a fantastic way of supplementing your like you said physical, mental well-being when it comes to work performing at your best.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: But there's also so many learnings that you can take away.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Even still, I am a really strong advocate that you can never stop learning from.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: You know my mentorship and from lessons from big rugby figures like richard hill and richie mccall, who played at the very highest level.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: There's no such thing as a perfect rugby player, and so you can always learn always learn throughout your career, but that can also teach you things about yourself that you can then apply to the professional arena as well.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: So in that way, rugby then turned into something that was going to really help me along in my professional career rather than be the primary focus, and then I'm almost falling back on my professional career, so the table flips in that kind of respect.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it sounds like it was a gradual process for you.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: It wasn't, and you didn't wake up one morning and say, okay, here I'm going to change this and change that.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: But it was this gradual thing, did you you know?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Now, as you look back, do you see a pattern?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Did you see moments where you started to feel you're enjoying it?
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Did you feel moments where you were getting in the car, going to training and your mind was elsewhere?
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: What sort of things gave you clues?
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: as you look back, I think when it comes to my professional work, when you're early on in your career, it can be very easy to feel overwhelmed.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: It can.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: You can lack confidence because there are people around you that have been in industry for so much longer than you have.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: You can have this imposter syndrome, but over time that will change because you'll be more versed in what you're talking about.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: You can gain confidence.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Your experience will teach you things.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: You'll learn quickly and then, once you become more confident about the topics that you're talking about and about your job, that's when it becomes a lot more enjoyable.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: So, like you said, it was that gradual process where I had to get a lot of knockbacks and learning experiences, tweak and try different approaches to the things that I was doing and saying, to the point where I thought, okay, I now feel comfortable enough that I know what I'm doing and now I can focus on actually okay, what's my potential here?
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: What are my new goals?
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: What?
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: What do I really want to achieve?
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: What can I achieve?
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: And that was something that was really exciting to me because it opened up a whole, you know host of different possibilities and outcomes and conversations, even because you know people, especially early careers people, people looking for jobs or even who are solely in that sporting environment do not realize just the amount of different jobs that are out there, the different companies that are out there.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I mean it's that are out there.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I mean it's insane.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: And so really, by exploring that, it really is exciting because it can lead you to some really weird and wonderful places and having some fantastic conversations.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to draw a parallel to how you described your time at the academy with Saracens and that well I'll say, imposter syndrome, where you're holding the tackle pads but you've got internationals smashing you out the way and you feel like you're not necessarily ready to be there, perhaps don't deserve to be there.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: But over time you gradually build that confidence by turning up to training, by going to games, by dealing with pressure situations.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: That you said and gives you that confidence to look at, well, what's next, where else can I go, what, what might I achieve?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: And so you know, I hear that in you and I think that is that's quite amazing, because now I have to ask so in your professional capacity and you know we're coming to the sort of industry and roles that that you're in now.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: What do you see as that goal?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: What is success for you now?
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: I've developed this huge passion for leadership and making a positive impact on others.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I think that comes as a byproduct of working a lot in the mental health space.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: So I got involved a lot with organizations called Loose Heads, which is an organization here in the UK that works on mental health in rugby and also Encourage who are looking to encourage locally led mental health solutions for men.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: And by having an impact on others in that capacity, by having a tangible impact on the quality of life and also being there for other people, it's a huge motivator for me.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: And then I thought, okay, which are the different ways that I could bring that into a professional capacity?
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: And I thought leadership is such a fantastic way to do that to personally and professionally grow people in a team while all striving towards the common goal, like you would in a rugby environment, and then trying to achieve success together and being able to celebrate that success.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: There's no greater motivation.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: So, you know, because it marries up the two things in my life, which is the competitiveness, the sport, the team element, and also being able to grow and see that growth in others and also learn things from other people, learn things through those experiences and really test the boundaries of our capabilities collectively.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: So for me, success now looks like transitioning into a leadership role at some point in the future.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: I would love to be a leader of people by the time I'm 30.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: I'm 28 now, so to be a young leader and to start making an impact early doors would be incredible for me, and I've already taken steps towards that.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: So as well as having some internal leadership experience, I've also sought out executive leadership programs.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: So I completed the Oxford University Executive Leadership Program in December of last year, which was a fantastic learning experience.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Executive leadership programs so I completed the Oxford University executive leadership program in December of last year, which was a fantastic learning experience for me.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: It definitely gave me the confidence that I needed to be able to lead people more effectively.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I've also and I mentioned before as a result of my injury I'm not able to actively participate this season with Hertford Rugby Club, but I then lended myself from a coaching capacity because I saw opportunity in the setback.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: So what started off in me doing a little bit of line-out work with the forwards on Tuesdays and Thursdays, then slowly and as some people recognise rugby clubs can be at times that kind of started getting more and more and more and actually to the point where I've been leading as a head coach on.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Saturdays I actually led the team as a head coach on a Saturday, delivering team talks, strategy analysis, video reviews, team talks, all the rest of it.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: So actually in an effective head coach role alongside another as well, but that has been really supplementing my leadership capabilities and growing me as a human being as well, so also supplement getting my journey towards leadership in a professional environment.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: So that is my goal and hopefully something that I'm going to be getting into in the next couple of years.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: I love that, James.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: That's brilliant.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: I love the way that's moved from what you achieve as an individual towards the impact that you can have on others and, through leadership, sort of propelling them forward as well, and I just think that's great.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: It's such a good shift from what I want to be as the individual, that professional athlete, towards now recognizing that I guess that broader impact or broader perspective that we can have on life.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: So it leads me to ask in moving into that type of position, you think of all of those wonderful attributes that you'd have as an elite athlete.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: What is it that you think you need to leave behind in order to be successful as a leader?
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you think you need to leave behind in order to be successful as a leader.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: So I think we're in a position now in a society where the corporate space and businesses need to change drastically in terms of what they're offering, in terms of the cultures of lots of organizations, how people are treated and also how people are looked after, growing professionally and personally.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: So one thing that I'd like to leave behind as a bit of a legacy is that I made a change and was maybe part of the wave that changed how leaders are perceived in corporations, but also how people are invested in, how people are growing.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: One thing that I'm looking to kind of spark as a little bit of a fire I created a group on LinkedIn called the Aspiring Leaders Reading Group, and what we're going to do is, every month, read a book around a different aspect of leadership, come together and talk about that and talking about how we can have a practical implementation on that in our professional lives and start to grow a culture of the next wave and the next generation of leaders who are hopefully going to have a much more well-rounded impact on employees, team members and even those above them in terms of challenging and making sure that we hold people to account.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: From a positive point of view, that would be something that I'd love to leave behind is that we're starting to create a new culture of leaders who are interested in the individual as well as the team collective.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you answered that way better than I asked it, so that is super interesting.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: So thanks for that, james, really, but there's still a few questions that I really just want to understand.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: You talk about that leadership, that bringing together people in an online community, encouraging them reading books.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: When you then think, then, of athletes who are looking to transition into that corporate world we've heard how you've done it I mean, as you look back, what do you think they need to be focused on to help make that better?
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: So I think saying yes more to any opportunity, regardless of how big or small you think it is, if you think it's going to develop you as an individual, if you are interested in it, if you have this genuine motivation towards doing something, or if the opportunity presents itself, take it with both hands because it will pay dividends down the line.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Even if you don't think it's directly relevant to what you're doing right now or where you're looking to go in the short term, it will teach you something else about your life yourself that is going to, I guess, grow you as an individual and give you different perspectives.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: That will really pay dividends when you enter that professional fray.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: And also, you never know where opportunities are going to take you.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: So if we think about it from my circumstance, I took this opportunity with HPE.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I then met the individual that moved across to Unity.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: We then caught up casually on the phone conversation, said do you want me to put your CV in?
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden I'm working for a games company.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: In a million years is anyone going to make that connection?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Naturally Probably not.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: But it all came about of me saying yes and opening myself up to people and making sure to also work on those networks.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: So that would be, I guess, my second point is that networking, investing into people, investing into relationships, but also making sure that those relationships are genuine, making sure that the relationship is not one-sided.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: So, instead of just constantly pulling information and asking people for things and drawing on their resource, offer something yourself.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Always reach out, be helpful, be someone that is always going to be seen to be, someone that is offering and willing and is a doer and that can get you so far.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: A lot of times, it's the little things that really count and that people will remember.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: So really cultivating genuine relationships in the professional capacity and not saying no to a conversation is huge as well.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: I like that as well.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: That's good, james.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: So, really, for athletes looking to come out of the game, what you're really saying is, well, say yes to more things and establish deeper relationships.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Establish relationships with people, get to know them, get to understand who they are and what they're about.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And it also sounds like doing that early for you.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Doing it through a placement year before you were truly looking for a job, meant you were ready when that opportunity arose.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: And listen, james, I want to say thanks because I really appreciate you sharing your story and for those who want to find you, want to reach out, want to join your LinkedIn group, tell us what's the best way to find you.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: A bit of a weird one.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: These days I'm actually on no social media.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: I do have a Twitter that is sort of dying, but I chose to come off of social media last year, so I'm only on LinkedIn really now actively.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: So just James Stanko on LinkedIn.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: All my contact information is on there, so either email or, if you're lucky, phone, I think might be on there.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: And then if you want to join the leadership group it's the Aspiring Leaders Reading Group it should be on my LinkedIn profile as well.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Everyone is more than welcome to join that.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: All we ask is a little bit of commitment.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: And you know we're more than welcome to have you with the conversation, because we had our first meeting last night and it was awesome, really really like amazing, insightful and vulnerable conversation around leadership, what it means to us and how we're going to apply it.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: So that was super fun.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to what's to come with that group.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: But yeah, honestly, I'm more than happy to have a conversation with anyone.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: So please drop me a message.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: And I guess one of the other things I'd say, alongside the other pieces of advice, is that no one's gonna do the work for you.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: If you're really interested, if you're really motivated by something, do something about it, find an initiative, find, find a hook in somewhere to the industry that you're, you're looking to get into and be shameless in terms of the questions you ask.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: Badger people get in front of people, try and get broken that conversation and just find any kind of footstep in there.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: And once you're in, then the world's your oyster because you can really start to work those connections and graph the way I like the way you sneaked those in there.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: That's very good, James.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Thanks very much for joining the show.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Real good lessons that we can take from that.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: It was great.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Let's keep in touch.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me Good to speak to you.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: That's all from me.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Take it easy Until next time.