Latest / The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce / The 3 Big Mistakes Moms Make in a High-Conflict Divorce | Attorney Leslye Swigert

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The 3 Big Mistakes Moms Make in a High-Conflict Divorce | Attorney Leslye Swigert · The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce

• Leslye Swigert: When I hear high conflict, I hear money. Expensive. You may not get paid for the 25 years in your marriage that you hustled your butt off, running kids around, planning meals, so your husband could be their professional best. We are not reimbursing that in the legal system. People come to us and they're saying, but guess what? We've kept all our money separate during the marriage. And we're like, great, good for you. What does that mean? Nothing. That means nothing. Because everything you earn during the marriage is marital property. I think everybody should have an agent at all stages of life. You're looking for a new job, you should have an agent. That's what we are. We're to protect you because you are not going to make the best decisions, especially if you're dealing with the master manipulator who's manipulated you most of your marriage, or especially the last three to five years. You think you're gonna go into mediation, and all of a sudden it's going to be unicorns and butterflies. It's not. Brooke Gaston: Leslye Swigert. Brooke. Hi. Brooke Gaston. Thank you so much for coming and sharing legal expertise, especially around high conflict divorce, which just seems like it's all around us these days. So there's many people out there that have questions about it. And I am just so happy that you're here to answer some of these questions. Well, thank you. Yeah. Leslye Swigert: I'm happy to be here. In your beautiful studio. Brooke Gaston: why thank you. Thank you. So from a legal perspective, because you are a divorce attorney in the Chicago area, how do you define a high conflict divorce? Leslye Swigert: Yeah, I would say most people who come to us are in a high conflict situation. You are getting divorced for a reason. And some of the big issues, whether it be property, children, emotional baggage, all of that triggers in people feelings of out of control, chaos, and vindictiveness at times. Sometimes people just don't want to agree to be difficult. And in a relationship, I think when you're with someone, whether it be a short term, a long term, you kind of know how that relationship rolls on a regular basis. And sometimes conflict is what has fueled your relationship. I'm not saying that's necessarily healthy, but there are a lot of marriages that last a lot of time where conflict is just part of the cycle. And I do think you either thrive in that. in a healthy or unhealthy way. But when it falls apart, when you've already been in a conflicting relationship over certain issues, it just kind of explodes. And those little things become things that you want to own. And I hate to say you want to win. It's a I wanna win, I want you to lose. I'd say that's high conflict. That's not how we want to coach our clients necessarily, but Getting that mindset to to transition, that's high conflict, but trying to de-escalate it. Brooke Gaston: And that can be really challenging to de escalate conflict, especially when, you know, maybe there was infidelity or, you know, some other kind of betrayal, financial betrayal, or you know, just when you're dealing with I mean I I say this a lot on this podcast. Everybody is divorcing a narcissist, but in some respects we are all we all have narcissistic tendencies. Absolutely. But that can be really challenging, especially if maybe you are more on the I want this to be painless, you know, but you're dealing with a spouse who is wants to burn the earth down, you know, and wants you to suffer with it. And they might not realize that in doing so, they're actually destroying their life too. But how do you, how do you work with clients when they come to you and they say, like, I want to destroy this person. I want to leave them with nothing. Like are those clients that you will take on or how do you how do you know? Leslye Swigert: I mean, the ideal client for us is someone who's coachable. And I think some people, I mean, whether it be narcissism, the lack of being able to be coached, like I think being a divorce attorney, particularly if you are shopping around, you want to find someone that you can listen to. and trust. I mean, and obviously the standard is you should be able to trust your divorce attorney, whether it be billing, whether it be advice. They might not get back to you in five minutes, but we will get back to you. it may not be meeting your expectations, and we're always trying to do that within a reasonable time frame. But I feel like the most ideal client for us is someone who's reasonable. And going back to when I know we were speaking about high conflict, when I hear high conflict, I hear money. Expensive. Yeah. And and it it doesn't necessarily matter if you are a financially well-off person or someone who's more. just kind of making it. High conflict can happen anytime, but I do think we try to temper those expectations in a financial way. because we don't want to go through your kids' college fund. Not that we really can, I mean, with access, but any money that you're saving, we don't want to go through your savings. We're trying to get you onto the next chapter of your life. and I think another colleague who's in a different space, she's like, you're an exit planner. That's what we're doing. We're trying to transition you in a reasonable coaching fashion. We want you to know what your legal rights are. But yeah, you may not get paid for the 25 years in your marriage that you hustled your butt off, running kids around, planning meals. So your husband, and it could be the wife as well, could be their professional best in their professional capacity. We're not paying you to do that. We are not reimbursing that in the legal system. We're looking at your assets, how we're gonna divide those assets in a fair and equitable manner. and same with all your retirement assets, whatever you have, but you have to listen to us. And in our practice. We really we want somebody who's reasonable. We want to de-escalate. I can say if someone is coming to us to say, let's burn it down. I don't think that's realistic. The system doesn't always let that happen. And there are things and tools in court that we can do if we see that starting to happen, to protect assets, things like that. Now, before the entire process starts, that's a different story. When people are strategically doing some, you know, vindictive things. I can't control that. But that's why I would say I hope someone comes to us sooner rather than later. So we can make that strategic plan. Not that you're gonna be squirreling away assets, but let's talk about what's currently going on in your marriage and are you seeing changes? And I I always love it. I mean, it it's kinda it's not a joke. It's not, but The minute you change your phone password, if that phone password has never been changed in your family, it's kind of sending a little message out there that you either think someone's checking your phone or you have something going on on your phone, you know, that you don't want someone to see. And when someone comes into us for a consultation, that's a minor thing. But if you think some of those distrustworthy things are going on, I'm probably gonna tell you try if you're starting the divorce process, I'm gonna start telling you. Change all these passwords. If you think your spouse has access to stuff in Apple's a great thing, but everything's connected. And Brooke Gaston: Mm-hmm. Leslye Swigert: the one who controls the technology in the family is maybe at an advantage because if everything's connected, they may be able to have access to your email. They may be, you know, you may have an air tag on your car. I'm not saying maybe that you're comfortable with that. Maybe you're tracking them on Google 360. there's the technology piece of divorce and especially when someone comes into us at at the beginning, it's it's not necessarily gonna blow up your world. But if I would say if the other spouse is anticipating a divorce process, I think all of those things are fair. But if you're trying to be more undercover about it, you probably don't want to start changing passwords from the get go. just our job when someone comes to us initially is we want to get arm you with education. Mm-hmm. We're not gonna tell you to do anything underhanded. That's just not how we work. But we are gonna give you advice on how to protect yourself. Brooke Gaston: Well, I think though you can understand if there are moms out there who've been through the divorce process and maybe their spouse had someone who maybe crossed that ethical line in their eyes and just was like milking it and almost like fueling the flames of conflict, right? I mean, we've we've seen that. We know that there are, you know, just like in every industry, there are bad eggs. Leslye Swigert: Like you said, there are different quality attorneys. And I feel like, especially at your initial initial consultation, I would encourage clients, potential clients, men or women, you should talk to probably at least two attorneys, at least two. unless you're getting a recommendation from a highly trusted source who knows this person personally, I still think it's kind of let's shop around. That's more than just Google reviews. I always look at it if you are a divorce attorney and you don't have at least one. One single Google review that's a one star. that's kind of strange. because unfortunately in the divorce process, it's not winning or losing. And I say if both parties aren't walking away, maybe just a little unhappy, it's kind of strange. Like Brooke Gaston: Yeah. Leslye Swigert: it's not winning. It's kind of saying, these are the important things that I really hoped for, and we're trying to Prioritize that, triage that with them. And we're like, yeah, okay, here are five things in your marital settlement agreement that are really important to you. And we're gonna say what's the most important, what's the least? You're probably not gonna get all five of these things. It's it's a back and forth. Maybe you will. And if we do, we feel great, but that's usually not the case. But we really try to triage and prioritize goals for the client. I think you like the word strategy. It is a strategy, but it's also more of a personal conversation of this is your life. And we want you to be able to move on to that next chapter with these priorities and be comfortable with maybe some of the things you don't get. and we try to change that win-lose mentality because it's not about winning or losing. We just we want you to be moving on, and you may not be completely satisfied with everything in your marital settlement agreement. But at the same time, you may be walking away with your business. You may be walking away without maintenance. But that means you're successful. You're gonna be okay. And it's I find with with our clients too, they're like, but what if my business goes south? And it's like, yeah, what if your business goes south? You've been doing great for the last five to ten years. Why are you thinking now, just because you're getting a divorce, your business is gonna go south? Your life is gonna fundamentally change, and I hope in a more positive way, because You've been dealing with these divorce, I don't love the word shenanigans, but you've been dealing with a divorce environment way before you came to us and filing potentially through the now starting to navigate the process. So you're gonna be done with that process. Yeah, you're sharing kids, you're sharing, you know, we can help you with that, you know. And kids, I know that's an entire different conversation, but it's like, let's try to look at positively on what you are walking away with and what. Did we meet those? Brooke Gaston: And I I'm reminded of when I was shopping for my first house. And it's like we all have that list of all the things that we want that house to have. And then you come to this realization that that perfect house either doesn't exist or it's way outside of your budget. Yeah. You know? And so it's one of those things that in a divorce process, and when you're when you're negotiating, you just need to understand that. you might not get everything and that's okay, just like you didn't get everything with your house. But then you start fighting over this house. Right. And because that house is it means more than just that it didn't have the front porch with the porch swing that you wanted, right? Like there's wonderful things about that. And then to your point about shopping around, I think, you know, anything like a therapist, a divorce attorney, even a divorce coach, it's like shopping for a good pair of jeans, right? You just like sometimes you gotta try a few on to find the right fit. And like it's not unheard of for you to go to several different people and they all might have a a little difference in their strategy. And it's really like what aligns with your values and what kind of divorce do you want to have. And I've had clients who have gone to an attorney and that attorney has told them, you know, you're being too generous. Like we gotta do this and that. And you could fight for this and fight for that. Well, how much is that going to cost? Well, you know, I don't know how much it's gonna cost, but it, you know, it could be, you know, 10, 15, 20,000. And they're just like, I don't want to do that, you know? And so when you are informing yourself and talking to different people, and when you take the time to your point to build that exit strategy of like This is how I want to go through it. This is how much money, like roughly that I want to spend on it. Who is going to help me achieve the goal? Like the first person you meet with might not be that person. Leslye Swigert: Right. Absolutely. And I feel the financial part of it, I mean, the two I say most hazy questions for us are how long and how much. and our firm's been doing this a long time. And I mean, I think we should always be able to gauge cost. I think it's unfair not to be able to. I think someone walking away, like it it all depends on how agreeable you are. But if you're not agreeable, the process is definitely gonna be more expensive. If you want to fight, it's more expensive. And oftentimes, you know, we may have more of a financially normal client who has champagne taste and has that expectation. And we have to message that in an appropriate way to say, you don't want to spend your money on this. But at the same time, at an initial conversation, when someone's like, How long? How much? And I'm like, Just you know, based upon what you're telling us that you're agreeable, your relationship right now with your spouse, they're aware of this process. Like this is not been it this isn't new, it's not a a surprise. Like, and based upon what they make, what they like, do I think it's a ten do think someone's probably gonna get away in the process with ten thousand dollars? Maybe. If you're agreeable. But if you're fighting over everything, could it be in excess of twenty five? Potentially. And I think Depending where you are on the the income spectrum, and I say that not that we're looking to make more money, that just gives you more options to say, I do want to fight for this. But if you're a person without money, I think there is a part of us that has to say, you don't want this isn't worth the money to you. Like let's let's go back to our original goals. Like, may okay, maybe you're not getting your full first goal, but you're getting your second or your third. but I look at it like this. How do you stay healthy in America? Be rich. How do you get divorced in America and get what you want? Be rich. I don't like that, but that is a reality. And we're going to serve all clients a very similar way. It may mean if someone does have money, their strategy may be slightly different because they're willing to pay. And That doesn't mean they're necessarily willing to pay to burn it down because we're gonna try to coach them around that. But they may be willing to say, you know what, we kind of have this agreement on paper, but here are the three issues, and we wanna hire a judge as a mediator. That might not be an option for some people coming to us. obviously there's free mediation options as well. But if you have money, there might be other options available to you that seem a little bit more private, seem a little bit more. Professional in ways. I don't even like that term. but you just have more resources for everything, whether it be getting a guardian of the lightum for your children, which the court oftentimes mandates. some people don't have the funds to pay for that. And that is, and that's another attorney that you know to be the eyes and ears of the court for your kids, but also to let the judge know kind of what's going on with you, your spouse, the dynamic of the family. But you know that that's $3,500 that a lot of people don't have that will be required in your case if you can't come to an agreement. My preference, I would love the couple to be able to make those decisions because the only person that I can control in this narrative is what we do as legal counsel for our client. I can't control your spouse and their counsel, and I can't control the judge. So If I c I am always going to control what our side is doing, our narrative, but I would also encourage opposing counsel and your spouse to say, let's us control this narrative. Because if we can, I mean, we can always get a judge's recommendation, a recommendation at a pretrial on some issue. And that's all it is is a recommendation. But I feel like you're always going to be in a more powerful position. If you are helping decide what's going into your marital settlement agreement. Because once we get that third person involved, because you can't agree, it's out of our control. Yep. And I might have a very good vibe for what a judge who what I I think a judge may do, but sometimes I have no idea. And they do surprising things. they are humans, they are variable, and I feel like Most judges we d deal with are very good. And I think everyone who's gone through a divorce finds someone who's like, my God, you don't want that judge. You know, we we can always go an alternative route if we think the judge is really not someone that we want. but that usually doesn't happen. But most of them they're they're they're people, they're good people, they make sound decisions. But those sound decisions may not be what is on your goal list. Yeah. And it may be different. but I For couples navigating divorce. And it's hard when it's high in conflict. You really control your own destiny if you can work together. And that is a hard narrative when you've been unraveling for months, years. And if we can get our client, and then they always feel like, no, I'm the weak one. You're not the weak one. You're actually the way smarter one. And if we can just get the other side to be like, yeah, this is a better idea and come to some agreement. and like I said, it depends on the relationship with opposing counsel. It it depends on the tenor of the other side. we're always gonna try to get down on paper what the big picture agreements are, and then let's kind of talk about what we don't agree on. Brooke Gaston: Yeah. What is the biggest mistake that women make when they go into a divorce thinking it's gonna be amicable, but then it isn't? Leslye Swigert: The biggest mistake that I view for any client coming to us, not necessarily just a woman, is we are living this DIY everything. I don't recommend that for anyone. Obviously, I'm an attorney. I have a stake. I'm a divorce attorney. I have a ha stake in this process. I want to help you navigate it. But these are oftentimes highly emotional decisions that you need regulation of. And I am always so happy when someone is, I say so happy, I'm so happy someone's making that first step to at least come to a professional and talk to them, whether it be you, whether it be me, because I don't think this is something that you should be navigating by yourself. Now I'm gonna preface that. If you are in a short-term marriage, you know, no children. Do I think you might be able to navigate that? Yeah, maybe. I still think it's going to be way easier on you. And if you are a professional at your job, it it's still going to be better for you to hire someone. I'm not saying you both have to get an attorney's. One of you can hire attorney to help navigate that process. Obviously we do not represent two parties. That is not ethically possible. Brooke Gaston: People mistake that and they think you can just hire one. Leslye Swigert: It's and it's not we hire one. I'm not saying that, you know, we are very clear in those situations, but just saying, are there situations where people can navigate this process on their own? Sure. I wouldn't want to do that. But I've also been a professional person for over, you know, 30 years. No, no, that's not true. Twenty-five years. And especially if you were, you know, working a job, a working mom, even if you're a stay-at-home mom, like. I just feel like these situations can be too volatile. So biggest mistake, whether you're a man or woman, is not getting the professional support you need. but if someone is talking to an attorney, I feel like women who come to us, and it can be men, I I don't it's not just women, but I would say more, just women who are really scared. And it's because they may not know all the finances of the family and they're like, should I be like trying to find the paperwork and it's like no, you don't need to do that. We're gonna find that out. I mean, we are living in a digital age. For someone to really hide money It's not easy. Now, okay, if one of those spouses in a fully cashed business, that's a whole other different situation. You know, living in Hinsdale with all the sports cars and but they make fifty thousand dollars. Judges aren't stupid. We're not stupid. Like there are ways that you can frame your money to make it look like you don't make money. We can that is probably not as easy, but in the digital age, the hiding of assets does become more difficult. Now, if they are spending it on gambling booze and hookers, whether you're a man or woman, you know, that's a different story. And we have tools at play. And, you know, there are modes of relief that we can go for. I'm not saying there aren't some challenges with that. That if they are, you know, taking away from the marital estate intentionally and it's not for the marriage or the family, then yeah, we can we can go after that. It's not always successful. But it also depends on what's the level of them squandering around all that. But you know what? If you're a lady who has gotten your nails done twice a month, you go to your hair, you go to lunch, you know, downtown with your girlfriends, that shouldn't change for you because you're getting a divorce. It you you maintain what you have always done. Now, if you start going to Hawaii every month, that's a problem. Brooke Gaston: Yeah. Leslye Swigert: If that's not what you always did. But I say women coming to us going back to the biggest mistake. I feel like it's the fear factor. Like that's why you're coming to a professional to kind of de-escalate that fear for you. And we might tell you some things to do. maybe, maybe not, or just keep going. Because, you know, if we need to get you some temporary support if you're getting like if you're getting cut off financially, there are tools in place for us to make you feel more. Comfortable and secure. we hope we don't have to do that. but we know we may have to do that. But I don't want women to be I don't want anybody to be afraid. That's what you're hiring us for, to set the narrative for you and fight for what you're entitled to, but also to navigate those initial stages of where you are unsure, you're afraid. and we're here for all those types of questions. And Or a coach or a therapist, I can usually say, we're always talking to someone when they come in, particularly like, what is your support system at this point? Yeah, maybe you've never worked with a therapist or a coach at that point. I'd say the first line is a therapist. I think coming into an attorney, you're already like, I'm committed potentially to hiring an attorney. It may not be us. We hope it's us. but you're already saying, I want a professional to help me navigate through this. So then it's us really asking, where are you emotionally? Mm-hmm. Because while I'm coachy like that. That's my background. I'm expensive. And you may not want to spend that money on spending an entire hour on the phone with me where I can emotionally support you, where there may be better options for you versus your attorney. Brooke Gaston: And when you say DIY, I think there are a lot of women out there, especially women that maybe aren't making a lot of money, right? And they're very scared about moving forward. They're hoping that things are going to be amicable. They can't even fathom spending $3,000 or $5,000 on a divorce. So, you know, what do you say to them just in terms of the long game? Because sometimes What I've seen happen is women who do that DIY and their spouse has an attorney. Even if they don't really disclose that, right? They're getting some kind of legal advice. And unfortunately, those women get taken advantage of because they don't know any better. You know, they're not getting their legal rights, you know, explained to them by an attorney. Leslye Swigert: I think you can always ask, whether it's a man or woman, like who's the breadwinner? Who is making more money? Are you staying at home with the children? because if there is that financial disparity between the spouses, regardless of who is the breadwinner, you're probably gonna get your legal expenses paid for or contributed to with that disparity. So if we can alleviate something like that, obviously if you're on more equal footing and neither one of you are making I I don't even like to say a ton of money. Like, I don't know. If you're both coming to us and you have fifty thousand dollar jobs, which that is a good job, depending you're both teachers, something like that, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't have a legal professional help you navigate your divorce. Does it mean you're gonna fight over everything? No, you shouldn't. even if you really want to, but that's our job to educate you at that point. I don't like to full up full put that financial number out there, but I'd say if there's the financial and equity, you know, yes, we want you to pay our initial retainer, but we do anticipate that you will be getting some type of funding for your legal expenses. and maybe you're not. And that that's we'll talk about that as well. And should that make you more agreeable and them more agreeable if you're both kind of on the same level? Maybe. Not always. Brooke Gaston: Mm-hmm. Leslye Swigert: but we're still gonna represent them to the utmost of our ability. I find that most women that are coming to us, it's they've spent their time, particularly women. Not always. I mean, we represent men and women. you know, their time has been spent taking care of the house, the kids. They may actually pay the bills. They may absolutely know where all the money is, but there's some that don't. Or they know, here's the account. That a certain amount of money goes every single month. So I can pay the mortgage, I can run the kids around. I have this side hustle. So I buy all the Christmas presents with that money. you know, every family works their finances in different ways. but again, a lot of that is trackable. We might not know in that moment what your Spouse is making, you may have no idea. There may be snippets. I saw a job offer sitting on the table. It was in the mail or something. but eventually we're gonna find out that information. But obviously, not having any money, that's tricky for everybody. And it doesn't mean you don't deserve representation. And there are organizations, particularly for more low-income earners. carples. There's other organizations. I mean, I I have a list of those. Most attorneys refer to these organizations which we truly appreciate that help people navigate those situations who may not truly be able to afford the legal process but do need the help. Brooke Gaston: Yeah, so it's important that people understand that there are resources out there and that you don't necessarily just have to go alone. Leslye Swigert: And I do say going back to obviously we cannot do dual representation. That is not how that is against our ethical standard. We represent one person. And we can always work with a pro say spouse, that's someone who is representing themselves, a self represented litigant. but there's always a level of distrust in us. I mean, and it's our ethical obligation to be truthful with them. We're not gonna lie to them. They are not our client, and we're very clear about that. But if they have legal questions, we can answer those. But they have to be comfortable with that. And remember, they can always seek representation or go talk to someone. If if we're doing a marital settlement agreement with a self-represented litigant, we're always like, please, if you feel like you need to go talk to someone besides us because you think something's squirrely, you think it's unfair, please do that. But we're gonna answer all your questions, honestly. I can say when we do deal with self represented litigants, can it make the process more complicated? Yes. Because you know, the minute you get served with a petition for dissolution of marriage, there's a lot of things in there that hurt your feelings. And that's a pretty standard document. It's just everything has to be in there. If we want the opportunity of maintenance, it's in there. If we want full custody of the children, it's In there, you know, all those things. It doesn't mean we're gonna get those things, but we have to go for our dream from the very beginning. And I can always say we do try to message that with pro say litigants that there may be things in here that seem emotionally difficult, but no, this is a standard document. If we don't put it in here and from the very beginning, and oftentimes we try to coach our client to say, if you are in contact with your spouse, let them know this is a standard document. This isn't something that, you know. they should freak out about. If they have questions, we're more than happy to ask that. But that initial petition for dissolution and marriage, when somebody receives it, can be a little unsettling. and if you don't have, and unless you have a friend who's gone through the process, like, don't worry about it. It'll get hammered out. you know, we have to put everything in there. So we do try to temper it with messaging, but even if we do, people don't always read that stuff either. Brooke Gaston: Yeah. Well, and it makes me also think about women who are married to a very high conflict person and they need to serve that person and they're terrified. They're terrified of serving that person. And like, is there gonna be retaliatory behavior? Are they going to start, you know, badmouthing to the kids? Like, you know, are they gonna start I don't know, hiding money, although I I assume that at that point that's why people are serving them early is to prevent some of those things from happening. So what can you tell moms who are terrified about serving their spouse who's just, you know, unhinged at times? Leslye Swigert: So I'm gonna tell you probably obviously my husband's been practicing longer than me, so I know just based upon our case level, but I've been around him working. Like we've probably served somebody with a Cook County sheriff or a process server, probably twice. It just doesn't usually happen. I would say most of my colleagues, our method is we're gonna send you the friendly letter. You're gonna get something via email or via mail, kind of old fashioned. we don't want to do that. We don't want to serve you at your high power job. We don't want to serve you when you are coaching basketball. That is not what we want to do. Even if our client wants us to do that, we're probably not going to do that. and that there you go. It's you've got to hire someone that you trust to navigate the strategy. The client does not navigate the strategy or the de-escalation. It's up to the attorney to de-escalate and not add fuel to the fire. So have we had people say, like, I want them served at work? Sure. We're not gonna do that. We're gonna tell you that's not the route we wanna go. And most of our colleagues are gonna not going to go that way. Now, if there's somebody that we know is going to evade us, yeah, that may be an option, but we're always gonna send the friendly letter first, which is saying, We have filed a petition for dissolution of marriage in Cook County. You have 14 days to respond to us. does that 14 days really have any teeth? Not necessarily. Would we give them another 14? Yes, we will. but 95% of the time we are getting a response to that email. It may not be the first 14 days, but most people don't want to be served at work. They don't want their personal life coming in, even if they are high conflict. And so I would tell someone, like, the serving is usually in the movies. It's not what we do on a daily basis. And most of my colleagues don't do that. So Don't fear, do fear not. Now, if we have to hunt someone down because they're out of the country, and they are evading us, they're not responding to us, that's when we will go to a special process server. You know, we have people who do that for us, or we'll do the Cook County, sheriff, sheriff of Cook County. but the serving thing, being terrified, yeah, you know, obviously when it's a surprise, even to get the email, it can be a surprise. I think. People can be afraid of retaliation, but it's usually not an entire like I feel like people know when things aren't right in their relationship, but it does come to a head at some point and you have to deal with it. Brooke Gaston: Does strategy shift when you know going in that the other person, the spouse, is going to be very combative? Leslye Swigert: I think we probably try to have a more clear big k picture conversation about what they're going to fight on, but we're still navigating the legal process. I can't say it changes dramatically. Like it's the legal process. We have tools to use in the event someone is truly being combative or a non-participant. And that would say that I would say that's oftentimes. What people do is they decide to disengage. Disenge from the family. Go live at the girlfriend's house. Go live go live at the boyfriend's house. You know, stop doing a lot of the things that they did within the family because that's how it's very passive. I mean, it's not passive aggressive. It is aggressive when you're just like, I'm hands off. especially when that hasn't been who you are, because Yeah, you may be hurting your spouse, but especially if kids are involved. That's just you're not setting the example. And I feel like in that moment, if that's our client, we are always encouraging participation. Usually those folks have broken up with their attorney. They're kind of going rogue and doing their own thing. They're not being coached by anybody. So it makes our job more difficult, but we're gonna do whatever we need to do to protect our client and those children. whether that means, you know, we're asking for temporary child support, like you know, one person trying to keep the household afloat, where someone else is just going off, you know, posting on Facebook, doing crazy stuff. And and we see that, you know, our clients send in that to us. They don't they don't emotionally like that. I can't say at this point they're a little numb to it because they almost expect it. but it's trying to get to that next chapter. And navigating that disengagement. And at some point, that parent is gonna know that what they were doing wasn't good for them. It wasn't good for their family. Okay, however you feel about the, you know, your spouse who's has the kids in the house, like ultimately, three years from now, I hope this doesn't matter, but your kids are gonna remember that. Dad's disengagement, mom's disengagement. it's one of those things that I would say. We're usually having more trouble with someone who's self-represented. If they have counsel, it's gonna make it smoother because someone is coaching them. It doesn't mean we're gonna get along necessarily with opposing counsel. And maybe you know, there might be some delays with documents or filings, and we work that out. It's much easier if someone is represented, but it all goes back to the very beginning premise of if you're hiring an attorney, you gotta find somebody that can work with you. Your personality, are you going to listen to them? Because they're going to tell you what you need to do and you have to do it. You really do. Why are you paying them not to do it? Yeah. No matter how irrational it is. Brooke Gaston: Yep. Leslye Swigert: It's your money. And you've hired them to say, I need help navigating this process, but now I'm not going to listen to what they say. Brooke Gaston: What can moms do though? Like if they if they have a combative spouse who has gone rogue and isn't responding to, you know, court orders or things like that. And it it can really make things expensive for, you know, in our case, because we're talking to a lot of moms, it can make it expensive for them because of the noncompliance of the other spouse. And I mean moms will like sob in in sessions because they're blowing through money because their spouse isn't cooperating. So is there anything that they can do to minimize the damage, the financial damage? Leslye Swigert: It's one of those things that I say, we're trying to tell them it's gonna work out. I know you feel like you're burning through money. And I when I say that doesn't mean burning through money necessarily on us. You have a kid going to college, you have private school tuition, you like all of the things. Kids are expensive. And when you have your spouse now choosing not to financially contribute at all, like we can we can go to court. We'll ask them. They're gonna have to pay. At some point, a judge is gonna have to make them pay. Or they're probably going to jail. And those are conversations that we have, particularly with pro se litigants who aren't meeting their obligations. But I can say if they have opposing counsel, a counsel knows what their client is supposed to be doing. They can only go rogue so much and that counsel's probably gonna withdraw if they're not listening. But ultimately, when you're dealing with a self-represented litigant who's not following any of the court's orders, we're gonna have a conversation. You need to be pre prepared. You may be going to jail when you show up to court today. Be prepared. Say goodbye your whoever's at home. you don't have the money, you don't have the job, but there are court orders in place that you are violating. And I'm not saying judges are human. And we've even had situations where, yeah, our our client does not want that spouse going to jail that oftentimes that doesn't serve anyone. Like they can't work, they can't do anything. That's not, but sometimes like. that's what happens. And we will always work with our client to ultimately w we don't control that. We can't tell you if the judge isn't gonna throw them in jail. that's I feel like that's the ultimate is when you have someone who's disengaged financially, choosing not to see the children, you're not gonna go to jail. But if you've been ordered to do certain things financially to your spouse, and you're not, be prepared. You could go to jail. Brooke Gaston: Yeah. But I think it can even be just, you know, you're trying to move the divorce process along and they're not like sending in their financial disclosures and they're not, you know, doing this and that and the other thing. And the legal bills are r you know just piling up. You know? So how can they adjust what they're doing to minimize that damage, like the legal bill damage? And, you know, there might not be much that they can do. Absolutely. Leslye Swigert: Correct. But and I think it depends where you are at procedurally in the cases. If you feel that you're in a position that you are financially unable to pay, we're gonna have a strategy conversation. Like these are the things that we have probably on the future. What do we need to change so this can be affordable to you? And remember, I mean, default judgments, lack of participation, there are tools within court to make your life get on the right track. We may lack of participation. I mean in our cases we don't have that too often. but I would say it's not just the financial stress of paying your attorneys, it's it's usually supporting the family and the other things. And Brooke Gaston: All combined. You know, it can be a lot Leslye Swigert: And we've our obviously already usually had a conversation with the client. Like it really depends on the opposing spouse and what is their financial situation. Brooke Gaston: Yeah. And I I mean, we know that there are big corporations that will sue smaller companies and just drown them because they have endless funds and you know, eventually the smaller company has to to settle or stop or whatever. And I think the same is true for marriages when one spouse has a lot of money or maybe their family, you know, they have attorneys in the family and they have endless legal resources. And they will commit legal abuse against the other person because they can. Leslye Swigert: And I would say legal abuse, like it really calls into question the ethics of the attorney. I know it shouldn't be happening. And I do think we're more aware of it now. And I can say if we get a whiff of that with a client, I mean, there are just things that we ethically don't want to do. I have a reputation with the judge I'm in front of. And they can smell that. But obviously, people who have money are in a better position. to do those things, but again I would place the honest on the lawyer to control that. I don't think an attorney with integrity is gonna go the legal abuse route. Brooke Gaston: I just I'm seeing a lot more now, these frivolous motions and that are really unnecessary, but they cost a lot of money, really for both sides. So I mean, I don't care how much money that you have, and I I guess people who have a lot of money aren't as concerned about it, but I also know people, you know, of average means who, you know, just don't realize that what they're doing is hurting themselves in the process and hurting their children. And the process by being being so vindictive that they just continue. I mean, people have been in court ten years plus after the original divorce was final. Leslye Swigert: And we hope that's not the case usually. There are always extreme examples. Absolutely. and and especially you get divorced when your kids are little. And maybe there's some things in your MSA that just weren't dealt with, like who's paying for college. Like I feel like there's some basic things that should be even in there, even when your kids are little. so you may have to return back because maybe there's some some language in there dealing with it. But it's not exactly clear. so post-decree work, we absolutely do that. And maybe you don't go back to your original attorney. Maybe you already, maybe you've developed a relationship with someone else. but that's not uncommon. That doesn't mean like 10 years of fighting, like at some point you just gotta move on with your life. And I know some people there are people who will not. Brooke Gaston: So what documents should women quietly gather if they are especially concerned about a high conflict divorce, like even before you know they've initiated it? Leslye Swigert: Yeah, I would say even if you're in a high conflict divorce, like obviously you're gonna be filling out financial affidavits. there are isolated situations situations. Sometimes we don't do that. I can say we usually always recommend completing financial affidavits. Both parties will have to do that. but I would say if you have access to things, getting, you know, copies of most recent statements. But I would also say this if this is something that's the spidey sense of your spouse is going off. Because you're kind of digging around. If this is stuff you have access to, sure. You know, download it onto your computer. Again, remembering who has access to that computer, who can see what you're doing? Do they have access to your emails? Like those are all things that I think should go through your mind. Cause you are going to send out a smoke signal. Like if it is abnormal behavior. But if you're the person who does pay the bills and you have access to these things, I think knowing it is helpful because I go back to we're living in a digital age. Everything is usually highly trackable. And most of the time in that financial affidavit, we're usually asking for the most recent statement. And, you know, we're gonna see what you put down on your financial affidavit, what your opposing spouse is. And does that generally look right to you? Does it pass the smell test? because obviously, especially if that client the opposing counsel in that opposing party, if he's represented, like There is a duty for it to be truthful, an obligation to put what we expect on the financial affidavit, hiding assets. But I would say if it's within we don't want anyone going outside of the norm to get access to information, because we're gonna get that information anyway. we really feel with the digital age, we're usually gonna find out. If we need to go further back than three months, we will. Brooke Gaston: There's a lot of women out there that that don't know any of the financial information. Leslye Swigert: absolutely. And I think we went back to when we were discussing fear. When we have someone, a potential client come to us, generally a mom, female, who just doesn't know. And but we kind of talk about what their spouse does, what their lifestyle has been, where they live. We need to reassure them that you may not have access to this, but we're gonna get access to it. And Diverting funds in this day and age is not that easy to do without a trail. there there's even the trail of the gold bars from Costco. Okay. So I'm just it's one of those things that I say, if it's gonna make you feel better because you have access to it, great. But if you don't know, don't pull your hair out over it. Because in the process, we're gonna get this information. And it's one of those things. They have to provide statements. You may know you have an Edward Jones account. You may know you have a Merrill Lynch account. Okay. Like you see what's coming through the and I mean even if that's it. Brooke Gaston: Just paying attention. Leslye Swigert: Just paying attention. What's coming in the mail? Even though I mean we come on, we all still get so much financial information in the mail, even if we've checked the box. I want everything via email. just seeing what's coming through. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. it doesn't mean you have to open it, but hey. taking a screenshot of what what financial accounts you see coming through. It's I mean, it's not gonna hurt. But I feel like we're usually pretty confident in most situations that we are getting the lack of hiding is not go hiding stuff in this day and age is pretty difficult. Brooke Gaston: Mm-hmm. Yeah. One thing that I'd like to ask you about is what I'm seeing more common, shockingly. I I don't know if this is c because of COVID or what, but I have I have seen several cases of women who become the breadwinner after a certain amount of time in the marriage, maybe their spouse. you know, had a business venture that they wanted to do and it wasn't panning out. And they just kind of over time got a little laxadaisical about it. And, you know, you know, the the wife and mom was making a decent living and supporting them. And so they just, you know, the dad kind of became the stay at home dad. Yeah. They Leslye Swigert: Yeah. Brooke Gaston: get divorced and now the dad is high conflict. And I'm not gonna work. I don't want to go back to work. I you're gonna pay me for the rest of your life, you know, like forever is threatening and like saying this and it terrifies these women because they think, is that how it's gonna be? I mean, because they've chosen not to work when they're capable of working. So can you clear some of that up just in terms of like what is what should people just in a general sense understand about like can a court? Tell someone you are fully capable of working and I know you kinda want, you know, your ex to take care of you for the rest of your life, but you got another twenty, thirty, forty years left. Leslye Swigert: Absolutely. And I would say timing. There's there's things that we talk about. Do I think you're gonna be paying for them the rest of their life? No, I do not. You know, it's a formula that we use for maintenance. you know, we input you know, incomes of both parties. Obviously, if someone's not working, the duration, you know, is it a 20 year marriage? Is it a 10 year marriage? Did they work? Like, I mean It is the flip situation of what we used to traditionally see. I mean, if the person is truly a stay-at-home parent taking home take caring, taking care of the kids, and that has been predominantly what they do, but now the kids are out of the house, that's a little bit different. are they capable of working? These are all things that we're gonna talk about. Does it mean income could be imputed to them? Yeah, it does. so when someone's just saying, I'm not going to work. that's usually no, if they haven't worked for twenty five years, I think the ship is sailed and saying, I'm not gonna support you for a duration. and if if they're of working age. And especially I feel like what we see, we absolutely are seeing more women being the breadwinners. That that's no question. I think that's it's just where we're at in in society, which is great. It doesn't mean those women are still making what men should be They're not making what the men in those positions are making, but they're still making very good money, but probably 30% less, unfortunately. That's a different podcast. but they have a good job. They're and maybe they are doing still some of the the, I would say, domestic engineer work as working moms, but somebody is at home taking care of the kids. I would assume. I don't think you're gonna stay in a 20 year marriage necessarily with children and allow someone to stay at home. I hate the word allow. But allow someone to stay at home who's not doing a value add with the children, the home tasks, things like that. I feel, but if you ride along with it for 20 years, yeah, w you can't really say, he can work. I think it's it depends on the duration. but is everyone frustrated by that situation? Yeah. But we have those situations now where it's more the traditional situation as well. Dad's the breadwinner. You know, is mom necessarily doing everything she can do? But does she in in their 50-50 parenting time, parenting responsibilities with the children? probably not. But early in the divorce process, their divorce isn't final now, we're probably gonna ride that for a little bit. But at some point, the expectation is as the kids get older, you are you're gonna have to find work. And Do we I do we expect them, especially if they left the workforce and they've been out, are they gonna be able to get the job like earning potential than when they left? Probably not. But can we impute minimum wage to them? Yeah, we probably can. But when we're crafting the marital settlement agreement, you know, there's things that we can do that you're not gonna be paying them for life. Brooke Gaston: Yeah. Leslye Swigert: But it doesn't mean they're not entitled to, I feel I always love this in, you know, Illinois is an equitable distribution straight. What what that means when you're the earner, you're like, well, yeah, I earned all this money. That means I get most of it. It's like, no, no, no. That's actually not how it works. And that is always a very sobering conversation. It's like, yeah, but I've been the breadwinner. And it's like, yes, but you've also been married 15 to 20 years. Everything that you earn during the marriage is marital property that will. Be put to an equitable distribution with your spouse. So it's one of those things that even though you earned all the money during the marriage, it is marital property that your spouse is entitled to a portion of. And along those lines, I feel like so many clients come to us. And especially how couples do finances. People come to us and they're said, but guess what? We've kept all our money separate during the marriage. And we're like, great. Good for you. What does that mean? Nothing. That means nothing because everything you earn during the marriage is marital property. So it's great that you both have your own checking account and maybe you have, you know, your true up account that you do at the end of the month. All of those accounts are marital property with any funds that were earned during the marriage. You buy the house during the marriage. That is marital property. It doesn't matter whose name is on the title, it doesn't matter whose name is on the mortgage. That is marital property if it was bought during the marriage. But so many people come to us and they're like, we keep everything separate. And we're like, great, that means nothing. And it's not like an aha moment, but I'm like, have you jumped on the internet at all? Like this doesn't protect you at all. And so I hope that gives reassurance maybe to particularly women, any client coming to us. Doesn't matter. Way to go. But if anything, I just like saying like it doesn't matter if you have separate accounts. Like but people think they're protecting it or like, but this Edward Jones account, I started with my dad. Okay. Did you start it during the marriage and contributing to it with the money that you were earning at your job? Yeah. Yeah. That is marital property. Brooke Gaston: Yeah, it it's a really good lesson for people to understand. And why people n, you know, when they are happily married or even newly married need to understand some of these things. That's why it's like I I know it doesn't seem romantic to educate yourself on divorce when you're newly married and happily married. But some you know, we get health insurance, we we get home insurance. You know, I say this all the time in my podcasts. And I just want to drive it home that, you know, it's just about protecting yourself, just educating yourself, having a basic understanding of these things so that you don't have assumptions that are going to cause you to make decisions that could really negatively impact you later on. I remember meeting you and your husband and he was saying, Man, divorce attorneys just get a bad rap. I I I will remember that for a long time. And and he's not wrong. Divorce attorneys, you know. do have a bad rap. And I think it is because of those bad eggs and the people that are out there literally to, you know, rake in as much money from their clients as possible to buy that boat or to put their kids through school or to buy that, you know, five million dollar home in Hinsdale or whatever it is. and I think that that scares people from seeking advice from attorneys and what is driving this mediation focused divorce. To the point where people are going to mediation thinking that they don't even need to engage with an attorney, which they don't understand that mediation isn't going to give them everything that they I mean. No, no, no. And I'm not knocking mediation. I think it's actually really valuable to do it. But for people to have a realistic understanding of what mediation is and what it isn't. And I've talked to mediators who have said, yes, you still need to talk to an attorney. But there are mediators out there that are not recommending that and are selling themselves as a one stop shop. So so what can you say about this stigma about divorce attorneys and and how that's maybe causing people to go down paths that, you know, might not give them what they think they're getting. Yeah. Leslye Swigert: And I think sometimes like people come to us and we're by no means anti-mediation. Like we are not certified mediators, but we we do a mediation process and we have mediation tools available to us if we need them. and I think there's times when we need to go that route. I think what I find though is you have two people who know they want to they know they're approaching divorce. And obviously at some point in their marriage they were amicable. But now you're not. And now you expect to go to a mediator and play nice. some people can do that. And I'm not saying that mediation can't work. And I feel like we have clients who come to us. You're married to the manipulator. You have already felt fully manipulated. Brooke Gaston: Hmm. Leslye Swigert: Doesn't mean they're a narcissist, that nice buzzword. But someone that you feel that you have appeased to, you have avoided conflict, and now you're saying, should mediation and I'm like absolutely not like we can go to mediation but I want to represent you like I think everybody should have an agent at all stages of life. If you're looking for a new job, you should have an agent. That's what we are. We're to protect you because you are not going to make the best decisions, especially if you're dealing with the master manipulator who's manipulated you most of your marriage or especially the last three to five years. You think you're gonna go into mediation and And all of a sudden it's going to be unicorns and butterflies. It's not. And then it's non-binding. And you've spent a decent amount of change on that and no one agrees to it. And then you're gonna come look for me. And then you're gonna spend more money. If money isn't an option and you truly think you're agreeable, then sure, go to a mediator, try to figure it out. I don't recommend that. I always say Get a lawyer to represent your interest. I wish I had a lawyer for every job interview I had, because they're always going to negotiate better for you than you can do on your own. But I think mediation can have some flash. And if anything, we probably have mediation-esque style, but sometimes I think it can just cost you more money than what you want. If it's successful, obviously it didn't. But I think if you're in a High conflict situation, I don't think mediation is the best way to go. Brooke Gaston: Yeah, especially with power imbalances. Leslye Swigert: Yeah, because you kind of fall into your own ha old habits. And and usually people listen to us because they understand, they're like, Yeah, like I've been dealing with this, and I don't want to go in a setting where I'm like setting myself up to fail because they're just gonna manipulate me again. Like I wanna have unclouded advice. And yeah, I I always think even if you go into mediation, have an attorney. I know it feels like a shortcut in ways. But I don't always think it is. I don't Brooke Gaston: Yeah. And a mediator cannot give you any legal advice. No. And when you're in high conflict, you absolutely need some legal legal advice and understand what your rights are. Absolutely. Especially when there's power imbalances, manipulation, emotional abuse, anything like that. Leslye Swigert: think even when you're just in conflict like we want to be the buffer for our clients. That's what you're hiring us for. You want us to protect you. We can kind of take some of the emotion out of it. I'm not saying we're not emotional for you, but we're advising you on this is the best path for you. Doesn't mean we're necessarily going to get that always, but maybe we're going to get a version of that path. Brooke Gaston: So let's wrap this up. I would love to know if you had one piece of advice for moms that are going through high conflict or are on the brink of a high conflict divorce, what would it be? Leslye Swigert: get your support team. Like whether that be, I mean, number one, getting an attorney. Number two, talking to that attorney. Let's talk about, depending on resources, what other support elements do you need to feel mentally stable, mentally supported, mental health wise. because I feel like that's a huge part of it. And just finding a good match for you. And I it's kind of like, you know, when you have an illness and you go to the doctor and you've looked all over the interwebs, we all know somebody who's been through divorce. And like CrossFit, they have opinions. Of course. it doesn't mean those aren't valid opinions, but I'd say talk to some people that come recommended to you. Don't just look up somebody. don't look up somebody just Based on Google reviews, like talk to somebody that you trust, whether they've gone through a divorce before, but you know, whether it be a financial planner, a real estate agent, like somebody in your sphere that you trust who may have recommendations for you. because all of those people know lawyers who have connected with them, and may have like true relationships with them. But it's finding somebody to be your agent, because that's really what we are. Because we're going to help you make the best decisions for you and analyze your situation, your fact scenario, and say, this is what we foresee coming down the pike for you. some of those some of those things could be good, some of those could be not so good, but that's where we're there to support you. I always think talking to a lawyer is a great start. And it doesn't mean you have to even go that route, but I think. Talking to somebody to give you some legal advice about your situation and probably talk to at least two lawyers just to see who you jive with best. I don't even know if I love that word jive, but who you see yourself working with. That could be working with a woman, that could be working with a man. It may not matter to you. but finding someone that you feel that can coach you and that could potentially bring out the best in you when you're dealing with the worst time. for most people of their lives. you've got to trust them and allow them to coach you. Brooke Gaston: Yes. And if you're not liking the advice that you're getting and it's not aligning with your values and the the approach that you want to take, then maybe that's a sign that t you're with the wrong attorney. Leslye Swigert: Maybe, yeah, and talk to somebody else. Not all our advice is gonna probably be exactly the same. when I can say I feel like someone's like, I'm looking for a pit bull. I see dollar signs when I see pit bull. Okay. That doesn't mean I can't be one or that my partner can't be one, my husband. he can. We both can, but that's not necessarily the strategy for every situation. I don't think our approach is to blow up someone's world. that doesn't mean we're gonna be agreeable to everything. but we want you to get what you're entitled to. Brooke Gaston: So if people out there are in the Chicago area and they are starting to consider divorce, how can they reach out to you? Leslye Swigert: Yes. Well, thank you, Brooke. obviously my name's Leslie Swiggard. I work at the single walled law firm. We are a husband wife divorce firm. I know that sounds crazy, but that's how we work. I've been married twenty-four years. we're located in downtown Chicago. We do do the collar counties as well. Josh and I really are a team. We work together. And something that we don't do is we don't double bill our clients. So you're really getting two lawyers for the price of one. which Sounds like I'm a car salesman, but I'm not. it just means if both of us are on a call with you, you are not going to be charged for both of us. and most people don't work that way. If we're both in court with full for you, you're not being double billed for both of our time. So we're always talking about cases and clients at the appropriate times. We have boundaries in our family. but that's what we like to do. Brooke Gaston: Well, so many wonderful nuggets of information today. Thank you so much for coming and sharing this. You know, I I know that moms when they go through divorce are just so scared and they want some of their questions answered without having to, you know, to go and interview multiple attorneys and they just want a little bit of information before diving fully in. And that's what I'm hoping to do with this podcast. So thank you for helping. Leslye Swigert: Thank you. There is absolutely room for divorce coaches in all situations and there's space for all of us.