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Millennial Mothers who Doomscroll to Cope with Burnout · Fit As A Fiddle

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's judgy to say brain rot, but it does kind of lull us when it's passive into a state of just like give me more.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want that next fix, right?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: As opposed to the creation process, which is really it's the releasing.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not filling ourselves up and getting satiated and numbing and I think desensitizing, which is what happens.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually releasing, expressing moving through us.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sneha Ghazi, a physical therapist, course creator, and mom.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I own Sneha Physical Therapy, a private practice in New York City, and created the course Master Your Pelvic Floor to help you transform the way you think about and move your body.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Use discount code FIT20 for a special 20% discount exclusively for my listeners at the link in all show notes.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode brings phenomenal guests in the health and wellness space who share inspiring tips and tangible advice.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: All things health and wellness starts right here.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everybody, and welcome to this week's episode on Fit as a Fiddle.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Our guest today is Sharon Itkoff Nikosh.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: She is actually a returning guest on our show.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: She spoke in 2023, about three years ago.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we had a very, very interesting talk then, and we talked about things motherhood.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, I um was not a full-blown mother, and now I am, and so our conversation is going to be a lot more colorful, I expect.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to give you guys a little background, Sharon is a perinatal art therapist.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: She has 15 years of clinical experience and she loves supporting um people who identify as caregivers, both professionally and personally.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And she um recently has launched a book and lots of really, really, really awesome things.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: But since she's the expert on what she has been up to over the last couple of years, sharing without further ado, welcome to the show and tell us about what's going on.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me back.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a whirlwind three years.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yes, I was telling you before we started recording that I am in my third year of partnership with the Whitney Museum, um, who has a separate partnership with New York City Health and Hospitals called the Art of Medicine Program.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh with a colleague from the Whitney, I go into the public hospital system and I'm able to co-facilitate these fantastic kind of burnout prevention, wellness workshops workshops for healthcare workers, um, many of whom happen to be personal caregivers along with their professional caregiving jobs.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so incredibly rewarding.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: We get to use artwork that's already at the facility to inspire these really dynamic sessions around mindfulness, stress management, getting creative and trying to kind of rehumanize the healthcare space.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it complements my private work really nicely because I'm all about taking care of the caregivers.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my practice is mostly around perinatal individuals.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So from the moment they consider having a baby to all the way through uh pregnancy, postpartum, parenting stress.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now I've also gotten um more referrals through for like perimenopause, the kind of women's health journey.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's a newer passion.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's really incredible work that continues to kind of evolve and complement.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love that.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would also love for listeners to know a little bit about your book and what that's all about, too.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for reminding me.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So last year I finally birthed um a participatory peridal picture book.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's a mouthful, but one of a kind.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's called The Days Before I Met You, a Creative Space Honoring the Birth of a Parent.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was my own example of art as therapy.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was actually created from um a kind of creative project I made while I was pregnant and struggling in my first pregnancy, and uh had just a lot of anxiety, dealing with a lot of life changes, and um made some drawings and poems.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And several years later, once my now baby was uh, I guess became a toddler, I was ready to kind of turn it into a book and make it more of a workbook where folks can be inspired by my story and then have some kind of reflective questions and processing to make space for their own experience, whether it's through journaling or drawing or poetry, um, because there's a lot of ambivalence around the life stage and there's not a lot of space to process it, and there's not a lot of like hands-on tools to just sort of name it, especially for pregnancy, which we can circle back to this anytime because I know this is the work you do as well.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: But um, for a lot of folks, it's especially first-time pregnant people, it's kind of a passive time other than going to appointments, or maybe you're very busy with a baby shower, but the locus of control feels very like external, like things are happening to you.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm all about kind of reclaiming it to an internal locus of control.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, you know, let me tune into my thoughts, reactions, reflections, inspiration, what's happening within me and um how can I kind of are not even maybe chronicle this dis this experience and make meaning from it so that it's something I can, you know, whether it's I want to share with my child in the future, or it's just part of my matrescence becoming of a mother journey that I want to archive.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I really love that.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm gonna make a quick uh comment on art in general.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I grew up drawing, painting, coloring, doing things.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, went to art classes when I was really small, ended up doing like a whole bunch of art classes in like college and high school uh high school and college, did AP art and like submitted portfolio.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: My mom had um written an application for me.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I lived in the DC area, to this place called Wolf Trap, which is like a um just like a cultural center.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I learned my first oil paints there, and I like really connected a lot with art and dance and music.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: That was like my childhood.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um I just like you know, we'll do like the very small charcoal drawing here and there over the last like 15 years or so, but really not anything to the capacity as I did when I was much younger.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so um just last year at the end of the year, I went to go visit um my brother who lives in LA, and he his wife was pregnant at the time, and he was like, Can you make a painting for the baby's room?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my meanwhile, my my my parents' entire house is covered with my drawings and paintings.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the only artwork that they have up.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he's like, Can you make one for the baby?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was like, What do you guys want?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, make a painting for the baby's room.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, dude, I like literally have not done that in like so long.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you sure you want me to make a painting?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't you want me to make like a thousand dollar target run for you right now?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, isn't that more effective of our time and resources?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, No, make the painting.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I ordered all the paints and I um we were there for a week and uh I remember I like set it up and I I sat in front of the the empty canvas and I was like, hi friend.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I like literally said, Hi, friend, like, hmm, it feels like, you know, we should, you know, kind of take off right where we left off.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: But this feels like really weird.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like we're dating again.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like having this conversation with this empty canvas, and then um I picked it up and then I started pacing.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then my mom comes in like six hours later and she's like, You need to eat lunch.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, and like literally, I'm not hungry, and it's like not lunchtime.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I that's when I looked at my watch, and six hours had passed.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know that six hours had passed.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't hungry, I like hadn't used the bathroom.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was like in the garage because I was I didn't want my toddler to see that I was doing that because there would be no more painting at that point because she would be too interested in doing it herself.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I like forgot the flow, and it almost like brought me tears in that moment when I was like, oh my god, I like miss this flow state that you get into that's so different from any other flow state of any other art form because of the static nature of it.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want you to like comment on all of that.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was right there with you.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's funny when you said lunch, I was like, I'm surprised it wasn't dinner by then because you were just fully immersed.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Blow state, which I know there's like a lot of buzz around that, but I think particularly as parents, it's a less attainable state for us because it requires full engagement, mindful engagement.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And parenting now, especially let's talk about primary default caregivers, which happens to usually be the mothers.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is a heteronormative lens I'm using, but absolutely in our country.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, mothers are constantly interrupted, distracted, multitasking.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: How are we supposed to be able to tap into that?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like you sunk back, like right back in.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: It almost sort of just like you started using an old muscle, you know?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So like you had it in you, which I believe we all do.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it can be harder to access that and make space for it.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love that I was wondering when you were telling the story if the pressure of having to create a gift was like a barrier, but it almost just seemed like once you smelled the materials and you know, got into it, you let you let it take over.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you said it's a static state.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would actually argue it's a kinesthetic state.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: You actually are, it's such a mind-body process, whole body, bilateral, you know, different hemispheres of the brain.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much happening that it's it is a whole body, you know, somatic process that really can be all-consuming in a way that isn't draining, in a way that's actually replenishing.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because even though maybe you're tuning all of that out and disconnecting from the outside world, you're actually in a deep state of reconnection.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and having that picking up that conversation with that old friend, I love framing it that way because that's exactly what it is.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like re-meeting your artist self.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's so much of what I end up doing in my work.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's why, you know, the caregiver burnout, it's really just I did something, it was called a role assessment, which is like a drama therapy assessment.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I did it last night um with a new mom.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the artist role, it's like we almost forgot that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: She has so many other social roles that she plays now, you know, best friend, caregiver, peacemaker, chef, all the different social roles that she holds.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that one is like the first one that gets tossed out.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So how amazing that you were almost tasked, like you were being the good sister-in-law, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: This was your sister?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was my brother.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: You were being the good sister, exactly.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you were also able to like reaccess the the artist self.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think, you know, six hours is such a luxury.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think with a little bit more attunement to that, I think you could probably slip into flow even faster.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: By just like finding, and you maybe already do with dance and your other art forms, you know, finding that entry point, which is the challenge.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that, yes, you are right that it's absolutely kinesthetic, hand, mind, body, all the things.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I'm only comparing it to my dance life because I so I I'm trained in something.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: My mom is an Indian classical dance teacher in the forum called Bharatnatiam, which is a very, very expressive storytelling um art form too.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, like the big Hindu mythologies like the Ramayana or the Mahabharata or the like, you know, stories from the Bhagavad Gita or verses will um pretend to be the characters and really act it out.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's very, very like you turn into somebody who's like a weeping person on the floor, and then suddenly you'll roll around and you'll be the king that's supposed to be like saving this person.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very emotional and connected.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I've gotten into flow state with that my whole life.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so that flow state compared to like the following week when I'll be in art class, when I was in high school, for example, and I would just sit there and I would focus and I'd be in one place.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the energies were just different for me.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think the um physical, facial emotions and the going into a story and enacting the story and like flying across the stage and doing big jumps and movements was a different kind of kinesthetic experience compared to uh like the you just need to sit in one place basically for a little bit of time.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And my brain was obviously working in different ways.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I say it was static, but it truly is not.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was just some comparison.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's a really good clarification.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I do know that dance form.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I actually studied abroad in India in in the northern Rajasthan region.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to see some of that amazing dance.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can totally imagine you doing that.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's funny I mentioned the role theory.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's it's so therapeutic, that art form, because you really are immersing yourself in those different characters and kind of exercising this role flexibility and this playfulness doing that.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's real drama, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I wonder maybe the big distinction, I'm sure there's been many podcasts about this.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do we actually compare what's happening in these art forms?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it's they're they're all expression, but it's um it's it's less of the performative, the outward piece, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: There, the audience, it's just that dialogue between you and the actual medium.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: It takes away that third-party audience element.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting that you say that because my husband and I um met through dance, and we've been we talked about this a lot when the pandemic was going on, and you know, performing arts in New York City kind of shut down for a little while.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: The landscape of performing arts is very different.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's obviously some things are still there, but um, the the advent of the 30-second TikTok dance was uh so interesting because both of us are live performers.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: We are, I need a stage.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't even have to be a stage, it could be an open field, but I need like a couple hundred people, lights, camera, action.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I need a loud applause, I need some reaction.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're both dancers, and you know, he was very, very prominent back in the day.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: He had like a very big dance company.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: He went on, so you think you can dance, like won a couple nations of prizes, is like a big part of both of our lives, which is how we connected.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we both tried dabbling in this 30-second TikTok nonsense for like not sorry, it's not nonsense for anybody who really does that, excels, makes a lot of money and like really more power to you.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, we were like, we can't, we tried it like a few times.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, we can't do this.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot possibly sit there and like record this like catchy, like repetitive, it's not like creative choreography because it's copycat choreography, and then do it for 30 seconds and then wait to get every time we get a notification for it to be an applause.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's an applause and then it's applause.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, no, no, no.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Asynchronous, yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then we were like, you know, that that idea with combining my love and passion for being in the moment to perform with people versus my love and passion to like sit there and draw and like all it really went on is like my parents' wall, or like I had like one small gallery in DC for like a hot second, that was like it.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't like really for anyone, it was just for me.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and there's an intimacy about that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the interpersonal piece, I mean, you were still connected, you were connecting to your brother.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was a gift for the baby to be.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's still related, and I think that can be part of the flow state and the the motivation, as especially mother, were relational, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, really good point about you know, getting that kind of collaborative, dynamic audience feedback versus you're really just it's like interoception, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're really just tuning into your own like body cues and or you know, in some ways it can feel almost like out of body, but it's, I don't know, it's such an interesting exchange, right?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're just externalizing whatever's in here and putting it out there.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: The field of neuroaesthetics has evolved and it is trying to measure what happens in the body when we create through dance, poetry, art.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's it's very exciting, but interestingly, it's complex.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to measure because every art form has its own physiological benefit and nuance, you know, based on environment and mood.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it it's complex, which is also, I think this was our last podcast, um, just talking about sort of the gray area, why it can be hard to quantify, hard to measure, hard to explain, but it's this kind of invaluable experience and it's our birthright as humans to just express and create it's what we do, and somehow I think we lose that um along the way.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to actually comment on that, and then um I think it's a good transition into talking about consumption culture in general, um, and your thoughts on it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I know you were we were talking about how I was like trying to meet an old friend, but like everybody is when they sit in front of a art that's like physical drawing, painting, coloring, um, you know, paper macheting, whatever it is, when it's like that kind of an art form.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because everyone did it when they were kids, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like there's almost like no kid on the planet who like, even if you didn't have access to all the things that a first world countries has with like all the different very various mediums and this and like my daughter has so many things.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I like never had there's like oh yeah, not a product place or anything.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's like the waterworks thing by Crayola, and it's like the best thing for flights and incredible not supplies, incredible supplies we have now for children.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I agree, and we had the basic crayons, the basic chalk.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like if anything, we would just like use like I remember a my dad used to eat pistachios, and I would just take the shells from the pistachios and just glue them onto paper and make designs out of them because we didn't always have the money to like get new crayons the second like the first batch broke.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so my point is that we all have that childhood inner expression of creativity, and we're often told to stunt that to create um rigid structures and limit creativity so that we can, you know, have or like kind of ways of organizing our lives and organizing our careers and organizing our academics.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, how does that relate it to the concept of consumption culture?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because consuming in some way is the opposite of creating, in some ways.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that concept.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my mind is running a mile.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have so much I want to say about it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll tell you a little bit of personal history because I also grew up, I grew up making art.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was very privileged to always have all the art kits, art supplies, be enrolled in the ceramics class, all the things because my parents saw I was into it and I was the only girl, and I was the girl that could sit for hours just coloring in her room.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so with two other boys running around, I'm sure I was the good daughter.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think I was lucky that my parents really uh just encouraged me to keep nurturing that craft and um just staying creative.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was able to become a creative professional and integrate it into my work.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think partially because um my parents weren't, they didn't have the financial luxury and the privilege of doing a creative field, you know.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it became something sort of inherited from me, it was valued.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just to speak to, you know, what happens as we get older, especially with capitalism, I think um, if there isn't this product that's able to be commodified, um, it's not always as valued, just sort of the, you know, this ability to be resourceful and process and create and externalize whatever is available to us.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it the focus becomes um, how can you market it?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: What can you make from it?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that those are creative skills for sure, in and of themselves.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if this is gonna segue to consumer culture, but I think my eight-year-old talks about brain rot now, which I love that he knows what that is.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, that's in my brain rot memory bank.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get to my other memory bank.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, like it, there are different parts of our brain, I think, that are activated when we are just in this like passive state of scrolling.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't want to say, I mean, art engagement is different.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: There, there have been studies actually that started during the pandemic that I think they measure just two minutes of art engagement.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking at like an online gallery of artwork, two minutes has physiological benefits in the body.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So lowered heart rate, um, blood pressure.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think they were able to measure cortisol levels, two minutes of art engagement.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that doesn't even mean I mean, that could be a scribble, but it can also be just looking.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's very powerful.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there can be Like some positive effects.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm for sure it's the dopamine hit, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: When we're looking at some of that consumption stuff.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think when I call it, I know it's judgy to say brain rot, but it does kind of lull us when it's passive into a state of just like give me more.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want that next fix, right?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: As opposed to the creation process, which is really it's the releasing.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not filling ourselves up and getting satiated and numbing and I think desensitizing, which is what happens.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually releasing, expressing, moving through us.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I wonder if that's, I mean, there's such an imbalance now of that.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that can lead to sort of the the brain rot or the the lack of creativity or really the burnout is what you know I see a lot of in the practice, my practice of just like just not having energy to even consider being creative or inspired, or what do I even like?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know anymore because I'm just so I just have so much to do.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then in my spare time, I end up just right, like doom scrolling until I pass out.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I don't know if you followed my thread there, but yeah, it's it's complex because I think I mean, tech is here to stay.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: We all consume to a certain level, and a lot of it is positive and creative, but um, I also think it can contribute to sort of the energy drain and the um just the emphasis on the product versus the product and um just I'm sorry, the product versus the process and sort of overlooking the way that we get there, which is so valuable, like the messy in-between part.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I for sure, for sure understand the need sometimes to just sit there and do nothing and be nothing and vegetable brain wat yourself into oblivion with the doom scrolling.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there personally, I have a 20-minute timer in my Instagram, except for the days that I create content with I'm like it editing.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, I'll even tell my friends if they're trying to DM me on Instagram, stop wasting my time, put it on WhatsApp.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're wasting my precious 20 minutes of the total day that I have, and I'm not gonna now be because I'm I try to be relatively strict with it unless it's like weekend, vacation, whatever it is.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or just like I need this and I deserve this right now because I haven't had three minutes to myself.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't watch TV, I don't do anything.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like my my time to de-stress is exercise, spending time with my family and friends, and then occasional doom scrolls, right?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: At this point in my life and career, I can only talk about the last like 24 months of my life.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: A before and after baby, uh well, actually it will be 36 in a month, but realize that.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anyhow, so I can accept and understand because I'm here.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I can like sense the listeners in the background being like, I do scroll.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know it feels achy by the end of it, I feel useless, I feel ugh, but it also feels like a dopamine hand each time.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the whole app is designed to keep you doing it.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it knows the neuroscience behind keeping you attached to the thing, and then it keeps making you do the thing.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so in in this context, I would like to create a solution or an offering from you on ways that we can very tangibly um change the, I just need to sit down and do the consuming of it and maybe sprinkle, because it shouldn't be an all or nothing, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just be like, you can't be on Instagram or social media ever, like you always have to do a drawing instead.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would be silly, right?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We can't like do that.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But what would be an alternative in the grace space of things for people to see if they could implement on a, you know, think of it on a weekly or a monthly basis to just sprinkle in other ideas of something that they can do that will actually fill their soul and then by it filling their soul and filling their cup, it encourages them because it's positive reinforcement, to do that a little bit more.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, such good points.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, you helped me with this answer because I think you're automatically doing it by sort of putting a frame around your practice or your engagement with um devices.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think disciplining and I think rewarding can really help.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the first step, even before that, let's let's move over the judging, because I'm not trying to judge the practice, you know.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I also this can segue into a whole like, is screen time okay for kids thing and technology and mental health.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so much here and it's nuanced and it's complex.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think we need to just let's get over the judgment and just talk about the ambivalent.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's conflicting.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of how I feel about AI and creativity and what it does to creativity.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Pros and cons.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's nuanced.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's a lot we don't know.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: It can be overwhelming.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just like naming the ambivalent.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So to all the listeners in the background, like it's not bad.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: We all do it to some extent.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very hard to opt out and be cold turkey and unplugged.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I do have, I know a lot of people in my life who do that.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's hard if you're an entrepreneur, or if it's hard if you're, you know, you have kids who have to go on Google Drive.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's you have to find a way to engage with the digital world in some way, right?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so naming the ambivalence.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then I mean, I wonder if some of it is just even about the algorithm, just being mindful of what calls your attention, you know, like I have a little group and finding ways to kind of keep it creative.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have a group of colleagues of other art therapists.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we call ourselves Pratt Cats because we went to Pratt together.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we send each other these like art process reels.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so inspiring.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's an art therapist, sometimes it's an you know, an amateur artist, sometimes it's kid stuff.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, it gives me ideas for my work, it gives me ideas for materials I want to use.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I love those reels.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that by looking at them, that changes my algorithm to just like cool artsy content.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: If I click accidentally on a Botox ad, then forget about it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Then I get into the, you know, the aging, the anti-aging, you know, body image, misogynistic, what, you know, that's its own thing.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But the beauty world kind of will like take over your feed into other things, and that's gonna lead to, you know, lower mental health benefits and feeling more anxious or feeling like now I have to spend money on a product.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think finding a way to just be somewhat mindful on what are we watching, what are we clicking, and that that is connected to um what's gonna be sent our way.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: We have some, you know, agency within that.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then I love your idea of the timer.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's like huge.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I wish I wish we could all just download an app that like automatically shuts off some of our there.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know they exist, right?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh so that we don't get kind of lost and lose all of our time because then it's like once we're in zombie past bedtime state, it's harder and harder to disconnect.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have the LED light, and I hear this a lot.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just an unplugging, it's a we are overstimulated, we're hyper-aroused, you know what I mean?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're sort of, or I guess the opposite, maybe we get under-stimulated, hypo-aroused.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just, but either way, it's a spectrum of dysregulation, and it's not actually meeting our, it's not meeting a need.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of this endless loop, right?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of solutions, I think that's what I can offer a mindfulness, a naming it, a little bit of agency into in what we consume, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And how it makes us feel.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I wonder if there's a way to, and I haven't quite figured this out myself, but there is something about the constant taking in of content and the constant like passivity and the receiving of all of the information that I really think is not beneficial for us.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that adds to the overstimulation.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I really think it needs to go somewhere after.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what if it's a practice of like when you finally put down the phone and put it in another room, which can be really helpful when you're trying to disconnect?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, go put it in your charger that's in the other room.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: You like do a little shake it off.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's something I do in between sessions.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you physically get back into your body and you're like, okay, you know, or like get some friction going with your hand, like do a little bit of a somatic practice to just sort of like tune you back into the moment and yourself and your body.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: As an art therapist, I could say maybe you do a little squibble or a little journaling if you feel actually like if you have a journal practice and you feel inspired by something you saw.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but really, I'll make more conceptual um recommendations.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think just keeping in mind that in order to combat some of this consumer culture burnout, I think we need to get back into places of introspection, um, rest, refueling.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that cannot happen when we're fully plugged in.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of manifesting those goals because we need an outlet.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: We need to prioritize leisure, rest, um, in a less um connected to technology way, in a more get outside without a device or sit in front of your canvas in the garage with the door locked kind of way, you know?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I really think, I mean, this is what I talk about in the workshops with the healthcare workers who are just beyond busy, beyond burnt out.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the luxury of the time.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think just keeping in mind spaces to play, experiment, uh, movement as medicine, finding joy, connection, leisure, rest, and just like putting them as pillars of, you know, mental health pillars, um, and trying to strive towards them as opposed to um, I don't know, losing ourselves, which I think is what we do.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: We dissociate a little bit into the apps.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that can feel in the moment like a nice escape, but it's hard to find ourselves again afterward, I think.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's also that like icky feeling that you get sometimes when you it's like when you eat the whole bag of potato chips and like it feels good while you're doing it, but then after it never really feels good.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or the whole bar of chocolate, or it's like the same thing.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: They lost control or something.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you lost control and you like couldn't stop the scroll or you couldn't stop the chip, or you couldn't whatever that um when done in excess, behavior becomes negative, right?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And like small, small dosages, there's nothing negative about it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in large quantities, that's when it becomes a problem.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was smiling profusely when you were talking about algorithms because now I have to reference my brother twice in my podcast, which he's gonna be thrilled about.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've never spoken about my brother ever.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna have to send him this episode and be like, dude, you came up twice in this.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I mentioned mine too.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: This, you know, love for others.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: But he uh fled.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: We always joke about this, but he truly, truly is like the reason I have an algorithm that looks the way that it does that's not mine, that's his, because of the number of group, uh, you know, groups and on Instagram that we are mutually in with various different, like we have like one with the certain kind of cousins and one with another kind of cousins, one this kind of friend group, that kind of childhood friend group.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's so funny, but he is like always like sending things to all of us that we're always just like shaking our head about.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: But anyhow, um yes, I I think that what you said about the tangible strategies as you were talking put a thought into my head.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a toddler mom, I often will present to my daughter different options for things that she can do instead of the thing that we can't do because we physically can't do that thing.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, like she'll be like, oh, I want to go visit my baby nephew in LA.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, or I want to go meet Mickey Mouse again in Disneyland.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, we are currently in the East Coast.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is not an option.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have lots of other really fun options, and then I'll present the options to her.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was thinking, like, as adults, right?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have the ability to consciously use our executive function to regulate, and we do have choices, right?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we make choices every day, and we have good choice.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: We most of the time, as functioning adults, make pretty good choices.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like we do show up to work and we you did blog into the Zoom right now, and I will make sure that I pick up my daughter from school.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like we all we do the right things most of the time.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like when it comes to specifically this consumption culture and what we're talking about in terms of art therapy or just therapies and um expression in general, I feel like we could, and I'm gonna try this this week and see how it goes for me.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: But when I do feel like, okay, I just want to sit here and doom scroll for like the eight minutes that I have left on my timer setting, um, as I'm about to fall asleep, which is terrible sleep hygiene, by the way.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I know that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I just want to get through my unread messages because I have OCD and I need the unread messages to be read.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Symmetry.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Clean it out for sure.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: But instead, uh, and I and I do this sometimes, but I'll be like, okay, instead of that, because you didn't get your butt to the gym this morning um because of whatever it was, why don't you go ahead and do like a couple of like sit-ups and a couple of push-ups and a couple of squats and do like your little yoga flow that I have my very specific routine that I do.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll and I will always feel better.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll always sleep better.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's like a kinesthetic movement idea.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to art, right, it's kind of hard because you can't just like drop down and do it because you need the supply, like you need at least a piece of paper and a pencil, at least, right?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: You need some medium to do the expression.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna give an idea because I was thinking about this as you were talking, but maybe I'll put an adult coloring book and hide it underneath a bunch of books that my daughter will never want to look at with like a few colored pencils and be able to like pull that out as another option to do in bed right before going to bed.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's why I mentioned the journaling.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: If like you happen to have a dream journal nearby and reach for it, I know.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't do it.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've tried so many times in my life and I'm sad.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the adult, yes, because you're talking about decompressing and you know, I want to say destimulate.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a word, but you know what I'm talking about.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wonder too, let's go back to that little statistic that I love so much about just needing the two minutes.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: If it's about the art engagement, and you know, that can be passive too.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: What if it's like, you know, do you have a book of photography and like nice images that you can pick up and look at before bed, you know, or just something where it's using, you know, you're still, you're just not on the screen, you know what I mean?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a little bit more of a quiet way.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I guess you're still consuming, but it's like a step down, it's scaffolding off of that.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not fully withdrawing.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just because that's a good point and that can be a challenge.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually, so with a lot of the moms I work with, I'm I'm virtual, um, we don't always make, we don't always tangibly make.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about dreams, we use metaphors, we're using that creative part of our brain.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: We don't always have to actually kinesthetically release it out of our body.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's very valuable when we can, you know, that's the goal.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if not, there are still other ways to express it and like almost like visually express it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's still using those parts of our brain and still um, I think still beneficial.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I love, I love that you are trying to make it into the concrete action steps.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really helpful.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I thought of something else that we, I don't know if we'll have time to talk about the superwoman syndrome that's connected to all of this.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it right now.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: I because I hear it in you a little bit.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: I hear that you, you know, you are a high-achieving mom entrepreneur, um, powerhouse of a woman, which is lovely.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I resonate with some of that.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to work with a lot of like overachieving, sometimes perfectionist, high-power women who struggle at this life stage because the demand exceeds the inner resources.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: They just do not have it in them to do it all.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yet they have to because of the lack of systemic support.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let's connect it to the consumer culture.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think in some ways, it almost becomes the rebellion because it's like, it's not self-sabotaging, but it's just like eff it.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is my final quiet moment of the day.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a vegetable.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want to engage in brain rot just because no one's finally asking anything of me.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I can turn it into self-care if I have my like, this is such a cliche, but the red light mask on or my nails are drying.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can be a self-care activity too, because I'm still multitasking.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if there that is that piece.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, my time doesn't feel like mine.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's so over committed elsewhere.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do I reclaim it in a way that like maybe it isn't productive?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's the rebellion of it.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's okay.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think the superwoman complex, it's like this post-feminine era fallacy that, like, yes, we were grown up, you know, highlighting individualism and sexual agency and um, you know, connecting with our femininity, all that is positive, but then it translates into um motherhood so much differently because somehow it just means we are all the roles for all the people and have to do all the things.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just too much, you know, except maybe that role where we sit in front of the canvas and it's like not for any.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, it's for your brother, but really it's for you that six-hour gift, you know?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just said a whole lot, so I'm gonna I'm gonna take a breath.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, firstly, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, we need to have a whole nother podcast episode on that whole concept, but I want to just comment quickly also on this feeling of the post, what did you call it?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: What you said it was a post feminist era, feminist era superwoman superwoman syndrome.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it is so true because I see it in myself and my patients so often.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it is definitely, definitely something that's very um specific and unique also to this niche population of working mothers who are often caregivers, but don't have to be.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: They could be corporate or they could be other things as well.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but working women in this like East Coast area who have a very specific cultural upbringing, um, where we truly, really, really do feel like we have to take care of everything.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we're kind of told that we can, but then that doesn't always have to translate to we should.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a huge disconnect.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um, a past speaker on our podcast, Terry Cole, was the in person who introduced me to that concept for the first time, and it was like, holy what exactly.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, brain explode.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, You're totally right.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I know that I can, yep, but I don't have to.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it, I do this happens every time when someone spends a night and I see the guest room guest bedroom bed needs to be washed and changed.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: But uh my nature is to do it immediately as soon as they leave the door.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And fill in the loop, fix the problem.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just want like I dropped off my daughter at school and took the winter change of clothes and winter hat and gloves out of the cubby.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: I put it in the bag, I brought it inside the house.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: It is my nature to put it into the cubbies that belong, like in the house where they belong, to put them away.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's now hot in New York City.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in like literally the last four or five like 40 seconds, it's because I did the whole wardrobe change this week.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: That wasn't on my agenda, but yes, I took care of it as well because that is what we do.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are we conditioned that way, or is that our natural state?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: A little combo.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: A little combo.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that um uh what has helped me a lot is I actively go.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: I am leaving the guest bedroom exactly as it is until I do other things that are more important and fill my cup in a different way.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or it is more important that I read our topic for today and pulled up our Zoom and had something to eat, even though I was multitasking the whole time and opening mail and also putting away my daughter's breakfast at the same time.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: But that was all more important than like putting away the hat.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: I am so with you on this.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I have been training myself recently.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is all new habits.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have not come, I'm not skilled at this.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have to consciously think about it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it's this like rebellion against the superwoman syndrome and the rebellion against the I need to it, it I am not going to do it.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: End of story.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am choosing.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not to, and I am giving myself permission not to.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't make me a bad mom or wife with a messy house because we're up against these like internalized standards that we're trying to always meet.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have that thing too.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: I like, I'm the default parent.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I, for some reason, I like to have my house in perfect order by the time my husband comes home.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't, I am not a trad wife for what, like, I don't know where that comes from, but for some reason, it, you know, I do like a clean space that that does bring me peace of mind.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if it becomes this somehow overly critical, almost like manic um obsession that it has to get done and it gets in the way of moving my body, hydrating, doing important other work.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like this a conflict that happens around priorities.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, I think, when is it all ever going to get done?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's my other question.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: For a mom, never, nor do we want it to get done.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: The kid's always gonna kind of need something from us, at least at this era of intensive mothering when they're little.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, how do we just sort of embrace the to-do list and gonna be there?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, we have to find a way to make it to rank it in order and to just put a pause on it, like you said, of just I love the verbalizing.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: I am doing this now.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is staying.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's not, it's somehow naming the anxiety around it too.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Cause a lot of that's underneath, right?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Of just like, let's just um, you know, what is it?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do the behavior so it's no longer just attention, right?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's a way to just sort of put it here.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: I see you and I am pivoting here and I'm closing the door.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or like sometimes I just put things in piles where I'm just like, there, it's sort of organized, but that's that pile, and I just can't get to that right now because I or I could, but I'm not going to, right?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just because I can doesn't mean I should.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I did a whole holiday season post around that.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that was so revelatory for me when I came up.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't come up with it, but when I found that statement for myself, because of course we can, right?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: We are incapable, incredible women who have been blessed with resources.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, we can, but do we have to?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like, who is it actually benefiting now?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm gonna just share something really embarrassing in the hope that whoever is listening also like resonates if they have something as equally or more embarrassing.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: When my daughter was firstborn and we got like all these um baby books that people would gift us, and we got her a couple of books, and so she had like one shelf at that time now.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: She has multiple books, one shelf of baby books.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um every single freaking night, I had this weird obsession with organizing it by height and author to make sure that it was put away.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like cathartic to me.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I also was like within the first month or two postpartum, I had my mom for the first month.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was not treating and working actively.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: I had a the time and space to do it, and it felt like an expression of organization that make me feel almost like it was like an art, like it's like a little artistic kinesthetic doing this thing.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I would always pride myself when it got done in like the most beautiful way quickly, because I'd have to find all the books and then put them away.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like this little thing.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Fast forward right now where we are, is it sideways, it's underneath the bed, it's inside the couch cushions.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like I actually have no idea.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's under our bed, like who knows where the books are.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes I'll do this like end of the day, just grab all the books and put it on top of the dining table because it's gonna get put away later, or she's just gonna take it from that pile.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I just show that as growth because I never thought I would do that.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I always kind of in the back of my head, I think thought if I become that person, it equates to me being disorganized and clumsy and not taking care of her space.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, like anybody who knows me, it's like neurotic about the taking care of the space.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like this one example of how something that seemingly is an expression of time of care when you have the time, space, and energy to do it and it makes you feel good, versus it turns into this crazy thing and it no longer needs to be that way.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: And now I give myself the permission to keep things the way that they are because absolutely nobody is grading me on this.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my husband would rather see me for an extra five minutes at the end of the night to whatever we need to talk about or hug each other or you know, whatever, like, you know, do the dishes together.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, whatever it is, you know?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: So just yeah, throwing that out there as I love that.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, and you're talking really about self-compassion and being a little bit more flexible with your sense of self and these internalized concepts of like what equal, what's good behavior, what's bad behavior.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we separate I am good, I am bad.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing we talk to our toddlers about, right?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: From the behavior.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's really true.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I think that is a lot of growth.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm working on managing my messes too, and also just keeping in mind of like, this is just a me thing, right?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who does this actually influence in the world?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'm the one that needs it to be.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: My husband, he appreciates kind of the clean house, but like, am I some days it's just gonna be a different level of cleanliness and that needs to be okay, or it's just gonna be the hot mess, or if I was out in the hospital all day.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just it is what it is.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the self-compassion and the I love how you said maybe it doesn't have to be the same level of perfection in terms of the organization, but just the recognizing our own effort and worth regardless, and just like acknowledging that of like, you know what?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: I did X, Y, and Z today, and it wasn't the whole alphabet, but I'm proud of what I did.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I had a little less to give today, and that that counts, you know?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: So sort of acknowledging regardless of the outcome.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: The effort was still made, and I think that's also what feeds the superwoman complex.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's always gonna be that invisible labor that has to keep the world, always needs continuing fixing, right?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like we cannot save the whole world, we cannot do it all.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: We have to sort of choose, pick and choose that boundaries and then call it a day, you know?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I'm most excited about is because I'm still in the process of personally figuring this out, coming back to this episode like years from now, and being like, what am I doing now that looks different in any way?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because hopefully it looks different and hopefully it looks different in the right ways.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because these stories are like coming from a very deep sentiment of, like you said, this whole like keeping the house clean before your husband came home.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where did that come from?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's all these things where you're you're you're just doing this automatic, slightly, you know, you know, nurture versus nature, conditioned versus part of who you are, this mix of things.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of it is, of course, self-compassion and then conscious behavioring, conscious acting, conscious doing, because we go on this autopilot and we just kind of like do do do do do, and then we're not thinking about how we're doing things.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it we have to think about how what we do makes us feel.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that comes from self-awareness and some kind of internal work, understanding and reflecting, which is why everyone should work with Sharon.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: So please, Sharon, tell us how people work with you.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you very much.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect segue.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: So my practice, um, I'm virtual in New York and New Jersey.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: So anyone residing in those areas, um, feel free to reach out.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: My practice is called Co-Create Art Therapy.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do specialize in perinatal mental health, but I also work with a lot of creatives um around life's transitions, highly sensitive people, perfectionists.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, art therapy is a trauma-informed, evidence-based practice that really can be useful for so many folks.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but my website's co-create art therapy.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also on Instagram.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my book, Days Before I Met You, if you're interested, is on Amazon.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think, I think that's it.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the way.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: I would I would love to hear from you and thank you for allowing me to um talk about these topics with you today.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's so exciting to kind of look back three years ago to now.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so much of it feels so relevant.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's, you know, what a gift that we get to sort of have our own personal growth as we support others in these massive life stage transition.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: I resonate with all of that.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate the work that you do because I think it's very important, niche, and not done by or known by everyone.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so propagating this in all the ways that you do is incredibly important, um, not just for mothers, but really for anybody.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that hopefully this has inspired any listener to make even the smallest, subtlest um changes to help improve the quality of their life.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's the whole point of the show is to introduce you to things and make you think a little differently, or just to introduce it and you don't have to do anything differently.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm I'm so appreciative of your time, Sharon.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to recording another episode in the future with you, whatever years or months it is from now, and looking at both of our growth and thinking about and talking about things differently.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for tuning in and investing in yourself and your well-being.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you listened to the show today and gained anything out of it, share it far and wide.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: It means a world when you rate and review the show.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to use your exclusive 20% discount code FIT20 when you sign up for our signature course Master Your Public Floor, linked in the show notes.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: See you again next week with an exciting new guest and topic.