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SMNTY Classics: All You Can Ever Know · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I never told you protection of iHeart Radio and listeners.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: You might have heard our recent episode we did where
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Samantha dug into her identity and got a DNA report
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: UM and things against Samantha for being so open, but
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: that brought to mine a past episode we did correct, right. So,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: if you've been listening to my journey, specifically when it
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: comes to Chinese find my identity as a Korean adopted,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: a transracial adoptee living in the Southern State and trying
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: to kind of just come to terms with who I
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: am and trying to understand my past, you know that. Uh.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I have been digging and trying to find as many
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: resources as I can UM for a while now, and
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: one of that happily included the book All You Can
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Ever Know, written by Nicole Chung, who after we were
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: like we're going to do this book, she was like,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I would love to come up if you want me
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: to come on, I can't. I was like, yes, please,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: So she came on to talk about her memoir, which
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: is her experience as a transmational adoptee discovering her biological
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: family and come into terms with grief and death, with
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: loss of family members in her adoptive family. So beautifully written.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: If you haven't read it, you should go read it
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: before you hit this or maybe after. UM and just
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: her experiences and her reminiscing about what it feels like
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: to be Asian in a very white world. UM and Yeah,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I thought that we would come back to visit it
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: because it definitely take me a moment. I think we
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: talked about the process I had to have in reading
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: this book and just really making sure I wasn't triggered
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: because we talked about that with the twenty three and
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Me podcasts, but really trying to grasp what this felt
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: like and what this looked like in Unwrapped wing to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: rediscover who I was and who I am. UM and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Nicole Chung going through that process as well, and just
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: writing it right. And she's been writing a lot. You
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: brought up some of the recent stuff she's written UM
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: in past episodes, so if you want to find more
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: of her work, it's amazing and it's out there. Also.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: It was beautiful conversation for me to get to the
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: privilege to hear. But it does contain something that I
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: like sometimes keeps me up at night? Is that I
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: said because in my family's and how we talked about it,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: But I used the word like real mother, which I
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: think about and regret to this day. No, no, I
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: and I know like it. It's nuanced. It changes based
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: on again your own situation. But I think about it,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, no, I sound terrible. So just just
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: note I have I ruminate on a listeners I do. Well,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: you know what that brings to a bigger conversation that
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: hopefully we'll come back to. And I do want to
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: come back to in this conversation when we're talking about
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: out possible overturning of Roe v. Wade, which is the
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: abortion rights privacy for women that had happened in nineteen
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: seventy three, and the conversation and the part in which
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: they talk about adoption really you know, takes away the
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: burden of women not wanting their children essentially, or people
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: who don't want to actually raise children, and how weaponized
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: we are in this conversation and what that makes us
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: feel like. And then also when they do say there's
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: adoption as a as in you know, this is a
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: solution for not getting an abortion. Um and when they
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: come back with so, how many children have you adopted?
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And a majority of the answer is none, and they
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: say in response, I have my own kids. And I've
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: heard that response so many times now and it's kind
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: of like a ha, gotcha. But for us adoptees, there's
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: so many triggering traumatic responses to this that made me
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: have to wither away my person and just like associate
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: which we've talked about previously from this conversation because of
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: that rhetoric, and Nicole and I talked a little bit
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: about what that looks like in comparison to why having
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: a personal connection on biological connection can be important as well. Right, right,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: it was amazing conversation, So let's get into it. Please
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and welcome to stuff I've never told your production of
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. So today it is a special episode.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: And because of that, I'm not you're off the hook, Samantha.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ask a big question of the day,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: but I have so many. You have the best questions,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: um and usually somewhat related as opposed to my questions,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: which is I'm just hungry. So let's talk about food,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: So okay too, I can't. I love your questions. But
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: all right, keeping on going, we do have a very
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: special episode because it's time for another Smiinty book Club,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and today we are talking about Nicole Chung's book All
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: You Can Ever Know, a memoir, which was suggestion by Samantha. Yes.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: It tells the story of Chung's experience with transracial adoption
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: as a Korean who was adopted into a white Catholic
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: family and raised in a very white town. The title
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: refers to something her adoptive mother told her about her
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: adoption and her birth family, that it may be all
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: you Can Ever Know, And it deals with themes of family, identity,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: adoption and all of the complexities within those things. Yeah,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and today is a special one because we got to
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: have an interview with the author and it was such
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: a great interview. Um, and I loved every moment of it,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: So thank you, Nicole. But stick around for that because
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: it is a big portion of the show. We talked
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: about this book in depth and just kind of the
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes and just kind of some of the
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: thought processes with it. Yes, yes, Um, But briefly, we
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: did want to give an overview The plot essentially follows
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Chung throughout her life growing up in Yes, a religious
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: family that believed her to be a gift from God
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: to your adulthood, and her decision to seek out her
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: birth parents as she starts a family of her own.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Her first pregnancy is intertwined with her making contact with
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: her birth family right. So, as a child, when Chung
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: asked about her adoption, her parents always told her the
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: same story, a series of events that were the will
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: of God that led them to finding her and adopting
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: her um. And she was born premature, so that is
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: a big portion of the plot in her life. Is
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: That's how I would say, that's strange to think of
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: someone's life as a plot, But I said, I mean,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: every everyone's life is a stage age. So the adoption
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: happened very quickly, and it was a close adoption, which
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: meant that legally the birth parents were not supposed to
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: make contact with the birth child or the family right.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Chung's time in school was marked by loneliness and isolation.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Um the only she was the only non white child
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: in her class. Her adoptive parents were color blind, which
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: is the term you probably recognize if you've been listening
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: to our previous but clubs would also just you know,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: paying attention to what's all the conversations happening row Um,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: and in that way they did not give her the
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: tools to talk about racism or even really understand it
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: and her experiences with it. She writes about how in
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: many ways her adoptive parents were unprepared to raise a
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Korean child. They also didn't have many answers for Chung
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: when she asked for any information about her birth family.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: So this led her to wonder why her birth family
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: gave her up if she mattered to them at all,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: what were they like if they thought about her at all?
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: She went searching for the information she could find in
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: her house, and she discovered a letter indicating her birth
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: mother had reached out to her, and her adoptive parents
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: had not told her. So some of the chapters I
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: actually told from the point of view of Cindy, who
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: we find out as the book goes on, is Nicole's
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: birth sister. Their birth parents had told Cindy and Um
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: their other half sister Jessica, that Nicole had died at birth.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: As Nicole gets older, she becomes sort of an adoption
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: ambassador although it's kind of a theme throughout her life,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: collecting stories and answering questions for people who are looking
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: at transracial adoption, and in doing so starts arriving at
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: questions of her own. She meets her husband and becomes pregnant,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: and the questions get louder when she realizes she can't
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: really fill out the medical history. She starts the process
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: of reaching out to them, filing paperwork and scraps of
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: information as her pregnancy progresses, until just as her child
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: is born, she hears from her birth father and learned
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: she has a birth sister, Cindy, who was abused by
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: her birth mother. Cindy and her birth mother are estranged
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: and her birth parents are divorced. Um Nicole also learns
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: that yes, she has this step sister. Her birth father
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: especial regret at putting her up for adoption, explaining that
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: her birth mother had wanted a boy, that they didn't
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: have the money for sick child as Nicole was expected
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: to be, and later that she was abusive and he
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: believed adoption to be the best thing for Nicole. So
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: this clash with the story China told herself about her
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: birth family. UM and now it was complicated with abuse
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: and concerns that she was unprepared to be a mother herself.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: But it's a beautiful story because she starts in a
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: relationship with Cindy, her sister, one that goes on to
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: be close and loving. Um. It starts from emails and
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: too shared photos, to phone calls and eventually meeting in person.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: They sharing their lives with each other, and she does
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: go on to form a tentative relationship with her birth
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: father and his new wife, a relationship she does not
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: keep from her adoptive parents. And it's really beautifully written
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: and moving and Um, as I was reading it, Samantha,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: I've heard echoes of so many things you've told me
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: that you've shared with me, and um I, it's also
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: so relatable to anyone because I related to it too,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: And during this interview that we're about to share, it
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: was really beautiful for me to kind of just sit
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: back and listen to you bond and and have this
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: more in depth conversation because you do have those shared
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: experiences and and Nicole is very clear that you can't
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: like everybody's experience is different to their own life, but
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: they're just certain circumstances, um that even though I can
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: relate to, it was really lovely for me to to
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: kind of sit back and let you have that space,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: let you both have that lovely conversation, right, I will say, yeah,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: our stories definitely the beginning, and she talks a little
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: bit about origin stories and the beginnings, um that it
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: was different for her and I. She had the unusual
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: circumstances of being born in the US and her biological
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: parents being immigrants in the US, and then being adopted
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: after the fact, as opposed to where I was adopted
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: from Korea while I was at an orphanage and was
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: at a young age six seven years old before I
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: came to the US, So that was different. But the
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: whole internal monologue that she had growing up and seeing
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: her differences with the rest of our community was so
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: familiar and so too real and vivid for me that
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: it was really nice to have a moment just kind
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: of dissecting which what each other had experienced almost around
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: the same time, because she and I are similar in age,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: but she was in closer to Portland, Ish and I
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: was in Georgia. But having that similarity with very different atmospheres,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: it was comforting at the same time, it was very
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: shockingly honest. Yeah yeah, and we're so so glad um
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: that she reached out and we were able to do
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: this interview. So without further build up, let's get into
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: the interview. But first let's get into a quick break
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor. And we're back. Thank you sponsor.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: So let's take it away. So we have someone very
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: special here today for our little book club I shouldn't
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: say little, should I for our gigantic book club with
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: our people's without smenty people's. Um, we have Nicole Chung,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: author of all you can ever know. Yeah, I'm very
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: excited about this, so welcome Nicole. Yes, thank you so much.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad to be here. Um, I'm not gonna lie.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: When we started talking about our next book, I was
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: very excited to pick this one up because obviously is
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: very personal for me as an adoptee from Korea, so
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: on my Korean people. Yeah. Um, So having you even
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: respond when I put up our post about our book
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: club made me so excited. And so we want to
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time to sit down because
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: we are we're sitting down on the interwebs right, is
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: that this is what it's called the virtual down and
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: talking with us about your book. So if you don't mind,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: about your book? Sure, somebody's Nicole Chung. I'm the author
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: of the memoir all you can ever know. It's my
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: first book. I'm also the editor in chief of Catapult Magazine.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: And I grew up in Oregon, small town, very white
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: in southern Oregon. I tell people it's like five hours
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: from Portland and six hours from San Francisco, just to
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: give you a sense. It is truly in the middle
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: of nowhere. And the book is about growing up adopted
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: in a white family in a very like white community,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and what happened when I grew up and decided to
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: search for my Korean birth family as an adult um
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: And this is a search that coincided with the birth
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of my first child. So I mean it was it
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: was very strange to have those two things happening at
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the same time, Like the family was just changing in
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: in so many ways and really like being redefined for me.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So I wanted to write about it, and that's where
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: this book came from. Even though your story and my
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: story are fairly different. It was so comforting to see
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: us having the similar conversations and similar thought process, especially
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: when we were children. Um. You you talk a lot
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: about in your book about realizing that you are different
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: and having we always know because obviously white Korean doesn't obvious, um,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: but having people say it to our faces, and instead
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: of being in our comfort zone with our family where
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: we're isolated and being told you know, you're part of
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: the family or part of the family, which is nice
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: to hear, but then coming outside of that, having mean
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: little children the same things that you don't want to
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: talk about. You're like, well the hill did you just
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: say to me? And yeah, not not even just getting
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: it from kids, but from adults. I mean, like I
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: don't want to make assumptions about your experience, but like
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I read about in the book, I mean, we had
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: exchanges in the grocery store with total strangers, and it
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: would come up with like substitute teachers calling role. So
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: it was definitely like this thing that was a just
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: a constant source of questioning and conversation and sometimes in
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: ways that felt really intrusive, you know, from people of
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: all ages. Like throughout my childhood, and as you point out,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: like it's so different. The difference between like knowing, of
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: course you look different from your family, and then going
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: out of that safe space, if your home is a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: safe space, like going out into the world and and
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: suddenly realizing like, I'm also different from all these people,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: and like having them call attention to it in different ways. Right, Um,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: And I didn't want to ask you because obviously for
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: me it was very personal and very vulnerable to see
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: it in writing in someone else's experience. Why do you
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: think it is important that you shared your story and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: your experiences? Oh gosh, I mean, I just think we
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: need more adoption stories by adoptees in general. I mean certainly,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: not just mine, and it's not alone. There are definitely
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: others out there that I think it's in dialogue with.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: But like, by and large, the sort of mainstream conversation
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: like discourse. I know, we have probably like a love
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: hate relationship with that word. But the narrative, like the
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: overall mainstream adoption narrative, I think, is so dominated by
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: like adoptive parents who tend to be white, when like
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: most people in this country who are adopted is a
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: lot of us are people of color. There's a lot
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: of like industry voices, like adoption professionals, there's lawyers, you know,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: social workers. You've got everybody in the mix, and sometimes
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: it feels like the voices that are missing are really
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the voices of the adoptees, for whom it is like
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: a deeply personal, lived experience. And I wanted to tell
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: this story, you know, not because I think it's like
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: representative at all of like all adoption stories, all transracial adoptees,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: not even all Korean adoptees. In fact, for various reasons,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: my situation is really atypical because I wasn't actually born
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: in Korea, my birth parents immigrants. But you know, I
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: just really feel strongly that like we need more stories
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: by adoptees out there, you know. And I read so
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: many books as a kid, like in some cases looking
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: for myself, or families like mine, or just like multicultural,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: multiracial families in general. And I think it's getting better,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: but there certainly weren't, like you know, there's certainly what
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: wasn't the volume of those types of stories that I
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: would have wanted growing up and coming of age and
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: even moving into adulthood. So I mean, I just hoped
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that it would be one more addition to different genres
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: that I think need expanding. I mean, I was in
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: college before I read my first memoir by an Asian
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: American woman, and so I think, I think there's just
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: like a lot of space for like a lot of
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: different types of stories, and it's it's just one more
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that I hope means something to people. But that's the
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: thing is that it's not one more, is one added
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: because there's not enough representation in general. So we have representation,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: but it's already so small for women of color and
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: specific by Asian women. But then even talk about the
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: economy of being an adoptee is even smaller and almost
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: of fetishized in a weird, weird save your way that
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: you needed a breakdown and that thing. I really appreciated
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: how open and vulnerable you were and willing to talk
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: about those situations. Um, but I didn't want to come
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: back because you are a writer. You're not just you
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: know this Korean roles chalking about you're a writer, you're
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: in and you've been a writer. It sounds like since
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: you're a child, like you're talking about how you had
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: to make up your own worlds and create your own
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: characters so you felt represented. So you created it um
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: for this book and for writing in general, what is
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: your process and writing? Oh my gosh, I barely remember
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: having a writing process, if I'm really honest. There are
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: huge swaths of this book I don't remember writing, like
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I swear I did, but like it's just kind of
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: a big blur, you know. I started it in like
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: the months right before and then right after the twentie election,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: like there were it was in a great time. I mean,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: this is not a great time, but that was also
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: an not a great time. I remember putting it down
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: for three months and like barely opening it and feeling
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: like every time I opened it, this doesn't matter, and
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: like kind of closing it. So, I mean, it's always
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: kind of a fraud process, and that two kids, I've
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: got a full time job, and so a lot of
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: this was just kind of crammed in the margins. I
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: mean I would write like every evening for months on end.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: I would spend at least half the weekend like writing.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Lots of days my husband would take the kids out
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: of the house, like on a Saturday, they'd be gone
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: all day I don't know what they did. They would
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: come back at night, I'd be in the same position.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: He'd be like, did you eat? Did you drink? Like
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: having moved and I so, you know, I so appreciated
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: that I got that space at all, But it was
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: it was definitely not like this like beautiful tranquil writing
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: process with a lot of space and a lot of time.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: There were no like playlists or candles burning. It was
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: very much just like, you know, oh my god, I
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: have thirty minutes. I've got to really use this thirty minutes.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: But like, I mean, it is more involved in that.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Like there there was definitely like some I mean I
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: out it before a little bit because I had to
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: just sell it. I mean, if I'm honest, I don't
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: know if I would have outlined it otherwise. It wound
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: up looking really different than my outline. But I think
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: if you can, if you can outline a project, you
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: know you can kind of write that project. Turns out
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: your high school teacher was sort of right about that,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: So I mean that helped me getting at a certain point.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Getting reads from friends or family really helped. You know,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: people always have, especially when you read a memoir. Lots
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: of questions about like how your family read, if they read,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: how they weighed in all of that, which we could
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: talk about if if you find it interesting. But I
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: mean that was also part of my process. It was
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: figuring out who to invite in and when, and then
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: like how to incorporate those things in. But yeah, it
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: was just a lot of like mining memories. It was
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: a fair amount of interviewing also family members, just to
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: make sure I got my facts right. And like, looking back,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I was fortunate to have certain sources, like not just
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: family lure or interviews, but like I've journaled my whole life,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: you know, so I had like these really detailed entries
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: from around the time I was reaching you know, I
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: kept a journal specifically about my search for my birth family,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: so I had like, in some cases whole conversations like
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: written down verbatim, which is great because I wrote this
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: book quite a few years after it happened, so I
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: was really fortunate to have that. But yeah, that's I mean,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: that's a little bit about process. But truly, so much
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: of it is always just like sitting down and forcing
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: yourself to use the time that you have and giving
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: yourself breaks to know when you need to take a
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: step back and actually think about a problem. Like, there
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: are definitely issues that come up writing where it doesn't
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: matter how long you sit and stare like at the
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: at the words of the screen, you might just need
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: to step back and get some space and think about
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: it without that pressure. Yeah, any are you taking notes?
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And she loves to write pain fiction and she's I
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: think she won't let me read it yet, but uma,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: my fan fiction would destroy you and I'd say that
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: it's devastating. She likes tragedy. I do, But yeah, so,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: and I love how you said that you have to
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: give a step back. And I'm just wondering for writing
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: a memoir because as a writer, I'm sure you're you're
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: writing into a world of fiction as well as as
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: memoirs and such. Is their process different? Is it? How
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: do you do it in a healthy manner? Because I
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: can't imagine trying to process some of the life experiences
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure sure traumas that's within that. How do
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: you process and do that? It's funny, when I started
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: this book, I really thought I had done all the
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: processing that there was to do, or at least like
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: nine of it. I was like, I was very consciously
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: like not writing for say Catharsis or like I wasn't
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: writing to process. Certainly writing helps with that, But by
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the time I decided to publish about it and have
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: it be hopefully like read by others, I was thinking about,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: like what what does the reader need to know? Like
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: what do they need to know to understand the stakes?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Like what will they pull from this? What will they
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: take away? Because when you write a memoir, like it's
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: not really about you anymore, it is like so much
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: about the reader, Like what relationship will they have to it?
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: You're hoping it's a good story, like first and foremost
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: that it actually draws people in and they want to
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: keep reading, But then like beyond that, you know, with memoir,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I think memoir is a form that justifies itself by
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: like through the question like what is in this for
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: someone else? Like what can someone else who's not you,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: who's not deeply already like in to know with your experience?
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Like what do they get out of it? So I
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: was I was thinking about that a lot, like what
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: is the writer need to understand, like in order to
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: care about this in order to like maybe reconsider some
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: ideas they might have about adoption or about like you know,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: transitional adoption specifically, or about like multicultural multiracial families like
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: mine and families that are built like not just through
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: like marriage, birth but also adoption. Like what do they
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: need to know to really like get the story, um,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: and to maybe re examine some of their ideas about it.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: So that was like very much what I was thinking.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: And and I think I also again like because it
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: is so personal, and I'll so because there were so
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: many people in the story whose like stories overlapped with mine.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, um, you know, hopefully not in like
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: a censoring way, but just like a realistic way, how
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I'm going to portray people as like fully human and
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: complex and in a respectful way, even if they make
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: choices that are clearly like questionable, or choices that like
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: are fine, but what aren't what I would have done,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: you know, like making room for for the humanity of
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: every other person in the story. I think that was
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: also something that I thought about. I'm like worried about
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: to be honest a lot, right, And that actually brings
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: me to one of the quotes you read in your
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: one of your interviews is right, it took so long
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: for me to realize that love for my family didn't
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: have to mean staying silent, and that I had to
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: write to my anger. And for me as an adoptee,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I always have a fear that's saying I wasn't the
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: perfect happy orphan adoptee UM would cause hurt and have
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of back lies. UM, and being completely honest
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: for and for you to write about such an operation. Again,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: like I say in this article, when you say that, UM,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: you talk about how important it is to listen to
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the uncomfortable stories of adoptions as well as the good,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: happy ending ones. What advice do you have for people
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: who are scared to tell the uncomfortable story? Because you
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: even talk about getting an email being accused of being ungrateful,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: which so much. Yeah, I've heard that too, and I'm like,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: oh my god, please know I love my family. But
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: it happened and and things were handled wrong, and I'm
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: growing from it and I'm still talking again. I'm still
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: daylish by it and I'm trying to unravel some things.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: But what is your advice for people who are scared
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: to talk about it? Yeah? That's a really good question.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the first thing. I'm an editor myself,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Like that's my day job, and I love it. I
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: love working with writers. It's a great privilege to get
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: to do that. I think, like I never want a writer,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: regardless of their background or experience, to feel like they
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: owe the world, like their trauma or their you know,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: the hardest, darkest moments. It takes like certain things have
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: to happen to you, like as a person and then
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: as a writer to get to a point where you
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: want to tell those stories. And I guess the first
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: thing I would say is you don't have to, like
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: if you're not ready, especially if you're not ready to
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: do it publicly, because like as well you all know,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: there's such a difference between like working and stuff yourself
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: for working on it with your family, and that's hard enough.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: And then like to take that and like bring it
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: into at least some part of it into a public sphere.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: It's not for everybody. It shouldn't have to be for everybody.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I am like super grateful when writers are willing to
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: do that because I've learned so much as a reader
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: by like reading outside my experience, right, So, but like
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: you have to balance like what is good for you
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: personally and your family and those relationships, and then like
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: what could help others. So I mean that's the first
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: thing is that you don't owe it to anybody, but
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: if you want to, and like plenty plenty of people do.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: And I've been asked by some plenty of adoptees like
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: who are trying to figure out ways to tell these stories?
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Like I mean I think just recognizing again that like
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: it's hard if if writing is going to be your
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: catharsis or like your only catharsis. So I would say,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: like making sure you've already done the work, and like
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: you know you have a good support system. I don't
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: like tell people you should go to therapy, but like
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: God does, we could all benefit from therapy, Like thank
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: God for therapy. So I mean I and I did.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I mean I went to I went to therapy, as
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I wrote about in the book, like as a transverational uptee,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: like at the age of seven, eight nine, um, and
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: I haven't been in continuously my whole life, but like
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I was really glad I was lucky to have at
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: that young age like an adoption competent therapist. Definitely have
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: run into some who aren't as knowledgeable about it. So
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I mean to the extent that like people want to
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: write about it, I would just like see, like how
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: like are you really okay? Are you ready to do this?
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: And I try not to have that sound condescending, because
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: you can be in the midst of real trauma and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: still be ready to write about it. You know, that's
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: not a call I can make. But for me, like
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: there's a reason. But like my search happened when it did,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: and this book was published like almost ten years later,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: like I couldn't actually I told you, I journaled about it,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and that was for me that was kind of processing catharsis.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: But like I could not have written this book while
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: it was happening. It would have been like too soon.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: So I think just being really honest about where you
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: are and and knowing like if you're emotionally psychologically ready
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: for that are like other things. And then my like
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: my other big thing was just making sure in terms
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: of my family and those relationships. I did not want
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: the first time they ever learned that I had a
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: particular issue or problem or like you know, baggage. I
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: didn't want them to learn about it in an interview
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: in my book in an essay, like I wanted us
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: to have had that discussion first. So I mean, this
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: is a privilege I had because I wasn't estranged from them,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: because my parents like did love me. I think it
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: wasn't easy, but we were able to eventually have enough
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: conversations where I felt like, Okay, maybe parts of the
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: book would still be hard for them, or maybe they
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: wouldn't agree with other parts, but like it wouldn't be
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: a shock like we would have we would have done
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: that work already as a family, right, And I kind
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: of felt that with my sister too, and like other
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: people in the story, just like, yeah, if if people
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: were in the book, you know, if if I'm in
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: touch with them, have a relationship with them, like I
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: wanted them to not be surprised by by what was shared.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: That was just like a very important sort of ground
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: rule for me. I love that. I feel like that advice,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: uh is pretty much covers for anyone who's trying to
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: write a memoir in general, especially if it's traumatic um
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: in any way. So thank you for that. And I
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: did want to go into the book and you you
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: talked a little bit already about the reactions of your family,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: and it looked like for the most part, your parents,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: your adoptive parents, were supportive of your book and and
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and um understanding, I know your father passed away before
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: you were able to publish it, is that correct now?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to know how those conversations went
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: down when you discussed the book, as you were talking
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: about and even with your sister, your biological sister, how
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: did all those conversations go. Yeah. So the first time,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I mean I started telling everybody that I was thinking
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: about writing a book. When it was like I'm like
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: getting a proposal together, it's going to go out on submission,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: it was very hard for me to believe it was
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: going to sell. So like I was like, you know,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it may happen, it may not. Um,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: So they take it with a grain of salt that
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about this and everyone that you know,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I say it gave me their blessing. But
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: that's a little too reductive. They were basically okay, like
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: it's your life. My mom was an adoptive mom. She
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: was like, you know, as long as you don't write
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: anything bad about us, Like yeah, it's definitely it's not
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: going to be like a hit piece, like that's not
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the goal. That would it be satisfying And it was funny.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: She also said call my Mom was hilarious. She was like, like,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: you're not famous, so like who's going to read it?
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: You know, which is like another it's just a very
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: mom thing. Um. I think she was picturing like, you know,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the celebrity memoir, right, and I mean that's true. I'm
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: not famous. People do not care about me individually. But yeah,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: so what we talked about it so I I basically
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: again this goes back to my no surprises rule, but
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I you know, even before I sold it, I wanted
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: them to notice a possibility m I told them when
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I sold it. I told them when I was working
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: on it. And then it was like a lot of
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: silence for a while because like it's not very interesting
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: to talk about how you're struggling with your manuscript. And
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: so um, I think I brought it up again with everybody,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: you know, like they'd ask every now and then. But
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: I mostly just like when I'm actually working on something,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I don't like to let people in, Like I'm like,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: you'll know about it when it's published, or like if
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I want to show you a draft beforehand. And that's
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: what I did, Like when I had a full, like
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: a full complete draft that my editor was also like
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: this is good. Like that's when I showed it to
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: my family and was just like open comment, reading period,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: share all your thoughts and feelings with me. So I mean,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: that's that's kind of how that went. My um my,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: So my biological sister, like her story comes into this
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: so much. There's a lot I share that's like really
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: specific and personal like about her, And I told I
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: told her, I was like, you you're the one who
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: gets veto power, like this is so personal. Um, if
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: there is anything you want taken out, no questions asked,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: we'll take it out. And so I mean she didn't
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: ask me to take anything out, but I absolutely would have.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: That was just really important to me. Um. It was
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: like a little bit different like with my birth father,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: with my adoptive parents, like I would have had a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: conversation with them about stuff they really objected to. But
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I didn't have to because
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: no one strongly objected, which was great. But also like
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I mean this goes back to like I don't know,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: there's this like great Lucille Clifton line. It's like it's
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: from a poem and and she says, like people want
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: me to remember their memories, but I keep remembering my own.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: I might have mangled that somewhat, but I mean, a
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: memory is it is. It's a book, it's a work
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: built on memories, and it is so personal. Like my
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: mother and I might remember, say like a certain thing differently, um,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: and when we do, or when she's not sure or
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: when I'm not sure, I try to acknowledge that in
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the text, like I'm a big fan of those signals
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: and saying I think this, my mother says this, or
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: you know, neither one of us can totally remember, but
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: like this is what we think happened. Like I actually
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: like that, but but yeah, like it doesn't necessarily mean
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: I would like take it out. So it was a
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: different kind of negotiation. But but no one actually asked
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: me to remove anything. You know. I think my parents
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: were like, you got this year wrong, and like so
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I changed the year. And my sister thought of a
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: couple of things too that like she had told me
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: that like it turned out, you know, maybe I forget
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: what exactly it was, like sort of minor corrections, but
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: but nobody, nobody like quibbled with anything, like you know,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: in terms of content. I mean, I hope that the
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: other people in the store, especially like my sister and
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: my parents, like they do feel, um, that it's true
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and that it honors them, because that was something that
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to do. Like I don't know, it's
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: it's like I just kind of wanted them to feel
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: like real and to feel fully human and I am
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: for people to have empathy with them and not just me,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: And I figured if I could do that, then then
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the book would be maybe doing them justice as well. Um.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: But like this is going to look different for everybody
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: of course, writing writing personal stories. It was just kind
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: of like how I approached it because because I you know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I am in touch with my family, because these relationships
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: are really important to me, and because I also wanted
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: to tell the truth and tell my truth. Um, you
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: know how to do that and how to negotiate that
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: when your story overlapped with other people's lives, right, and
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: you did a great job of intertwining those stories. It
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: was very beautiful and it flowed so well, um that
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: it didn't take it out like for so many stories.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: When it does, it kind of takes you out. You're like,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: what just happened? Where am I? But for you, your
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: story it was perfect. It kind of just was a
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: beautifully fleshed out, threaded story together. So it was amazing.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: But I do want to ask also, because your biological
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: father was as a writer as well as well in
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the academic did you actually talk to him about your book?
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Did he read it as well? Yeah, it's such a
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: it's just such a kick that my birth father turns
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: out to be a writer, and like not just a writer,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: but like primarily an essayist, like writing fiction. And he's
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: told me, he's like, you get this from me, you know,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: And I think he's probably right because like nobody in
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: might adoptive family, you know, is a writer anyway. It's
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: it's just interesting that but yeah, so he he I did.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: I told him at the same time I told my
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: sister and my adoptive parents, um, and then I sent
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: all of them the manuscript. I might have sent it
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: to my sister like a week ahead of the others,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: but like around the same time, so everyone had a chance.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: My first father, you know, he's Korean and he's fluent
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: in English, but it's not his first language, and so
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: like he read it, okay, God. First of all, I
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: think my adoptive parents took forever to read it, and
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: I was getting getting increasingly anxious the longer they held
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: out to it. I was, funnily, I was like, it's
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: been like four or six weeks. I hadn't really heard.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, you know, what do you think? Like,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: I know, it's like probably a lot to read, but
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: it's not like warrant peace. It's like, you know, it's
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: just not that long. Can we talk about it please?
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: But so he actually took much longer than they did,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: even and so that I did hear from him, he
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: again didn't ask me to change anything. He said he
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: was proud. Um, I know it was like a difficult
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: thing for him to read it at points. Um, but
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I think, I mean, out of everyone, he's probably I
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: don't know. I think both he and my biological sister,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I think they understood really like almost more than anybody. Why,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: like why I wanted to write it down, just like
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: why that felt very important. Um. You know, again, this
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: is something that he does himself, and so I don't know,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Like I just think that part of it made sense
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: to him, like where I was, like in my adoptive family,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I think there there was and still is in some corners,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: this like whole question of like why in the world
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: would you And like, I don't think that's a question
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: to the Korean side, I think like because both my
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: father and my sister UM love to write, and like
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: that's how they remember and how they honor certain memories.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I just think I think they kind of instinctively understood that, right.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: I love that. UM. So I also wanted to ask
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: because I know, as a person who is very open
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: about adoption for myself as well, I get a lot
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: of questions. I get a lot of people coming to me.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: I'm also a social worker, so I have that kind
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: of you're actually an experts. Yeah, well not in adoption
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: but in child stuff. But that sounded really professional, didn't it.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Child stuff? That's how professional. This is why I'm no
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: longer in searching to play. But you, like you have
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: now kind of touted as the expert. Um. You know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: do you feel like this is something that is a
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: fairly heavy responsibility since this is not just something that
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: you research or something that you studied. This is actually
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: your life that you're basing your conversations on, your expertise
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: on I guess um that you continually have to keep sharing.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's kind of just a wait,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: that's a really good question, And no one's ever actually
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: asked me that before, Like I forget, I forget what
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: it was. But like at some point, I think, like
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: a year or two ago, like right around the time
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: the book was actually coming out, like, there was a
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: fellow adoptee, and I think she said something to me, like,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: how does it feel to be like basically the spokesperson?
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And I was like, I mean, I felt really uncomfortable.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh God, is that what
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: adopted you think I'm trying to do? Like I'm really not.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think I have the authority or the right,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: you know, as I've tried to stay over and over
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: in a way that I hope doesn't sound like dodging responsibility,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: but like I can't and don't want to like speak
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: for like I mean really any adoptees but myself. And
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: then you balance that against like the fact that like
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: we are underrepresented, like to some degree, anyone who reads
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: my book will think that like my experience is I
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: mean at least somewhat representative of a lot of us.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: So like, what what's my responsibility there? Um? I knew
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: when I wrote it, i'd be kind of feeling some
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: of this pressure, like the rep sweats at the same time,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: like I had written other things about adoption before, and
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I got feedback and I've gotten questions, and I felt like, again,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: like just much more prepared for that than I would have, say,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: ten years earlier. Um, And like in terms of some
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: of the emails I get from people like the one
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: that you referenced earlier, you know, people saying I'm ungrateful
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: or saying that like they feel sorry for my adoptive parents. Um,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: you know, and it gets I mean, I've gotten worse
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: that would have destroyed me ten years ago. I don't
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: enjoy them now, but I am a to kind of
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: like I wouldn't say struggled them off. But the vast
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: majority of much more positive feedback is like, first of all,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: you know, like it sort of outweighs all that hearing
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: from adoptees means like everything to me, and I probably
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: hear from like a couple adopt these a week still,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: so like that's really meaningful. I don't regret putting the
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: story out there, and I guess I don't feel too
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: much pressure because to me, I've always felt like I'm
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: just telling my story. It's only representative of me and
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: my family. Like every adoptee is an expert on their
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: own experience, you know, they're they're expert, They're the authority,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and that's why we need so many more stories, right,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: But that's also why the pressure is kind of off
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: of me, because like maybe that's the cop out, but
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: like I just I've never felt maybe some people view
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: me differently, but I have never assumed like or accepted
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: like that responsibility. I really this is like, this is
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: like the beauty and the power of memoir is that
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: it is so personal, like you're gesturing at something more
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: universal hopefully, but at the end of the day, I
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: can really only tell my own experience, and so no,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: I don't feel it's a burden. I feel really privileged.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: I feel really, you know, lucky to have gotten to
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: to tell the story at all. And I feel so
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: so grateful whenever I hear, especially from like fellow adoptees,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: that the book meant something to them, you know, but
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: I I appreciate that that. I truly I don't really
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: think of myself as like a spokes person any more
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: than like every single one of us who ever talks
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: about it in any public way is turned into a
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: kind of ambassador for for the experience. Like you know,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: as you mentioned yourself, if people know they're going to ask,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: and like, like I wrote about in the book, I
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: was only like twenty two and these prospective adoptive parents
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: are asking me, like, should we adopt? Is it going
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: to be? Okay? You know it didn't. I hadn't written
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: a book yet, I hadn't written anything about adoption, but
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: like I was still in that position. So and we
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: all kind of share that just by having this experience. Yeah,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I will say, yeah, my well not my first, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: one of the experiences that I remember clearly was in
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: college when I was asked to talk to a family
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: who were considering it. So I was like, okay, what um.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And of course that's before I realized all the things
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: that I need to figure out my own self. And
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: then living in a world where I was a social
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: worker and I saw the impact of foster care well
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: as um, some of the faulty systems that happened within
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: foster care and adoption. But yeah, that's kind of an
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: interesting thing. Or you become like, oh, well, this is
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: your life, so that means you know everything correct. Yeah,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I mean when they started with us from such a
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: young age, though, they do as soon as people start
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: to notice you look different from your parents. Like, if anything,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: I got fewer questions in college because my parents were
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: not around. But I mean I in a way like
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: we're sort of turned into these little spokespeople like at
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: a very young age, or transracial adoptees, because it's right there,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: like people really will just kind of like ask whatever.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: It's kind of that whole like ownership of you've let that,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: you've put it out there, so therefore now we can
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: ask you whatever we want. The type of level. Yeah, yeah,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: it has occurred to me too, like if people aren't
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: really curious, maybe if they read my book, they will
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: not send the next eight year old. Yeah. A few
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: of the questions I've heard in interviews, I'm like, did
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: you not read her book? Because she kind already inserting
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: people are busy, they can't read everything we just talked
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: on this time, but not actually read the book so
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: here you Go, which I'm sure it has happened many times,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: but yeah, also I did want to ask um kind
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: of in reference to the book you talk about is
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: saying where you first meet your sister Cindy, and we
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: talked about shopping and cooking food and making recipes. One
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: of the things for me as an actual person who
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: lived in Korea until I was six um six seven,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: and like, I have a lot of memories about food.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: And I know that's not necessarily your story, but kind
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: of like it seemed like you had a moment of
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: bonding with your sister talking about food. Do you now
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: have a favorite Korean dish or do something that YouTube
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: talk about or make together or need that? And that's
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: a weird question. I love food. No, it's okay, I
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: have to think about it. It's hard to pick a favorite.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: I've liked every Korean dish I've ever tried, and especially
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: my sister's because it's like home cooking and she made
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: it for me. That sounds amazing. She makes like very
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: good everything. I don't know, I'm trying to think. I
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: don't know if I have like a clear favorite, but
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: like every time I eat Korean food, even if it's
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: just at a restaurant, it reminds me of her and
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: it's very comforting and like it's not the same as
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: like growing up in a Korean family where I ate
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: it all the time, learned how to prepare it myself,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: like it always there's a strong childhood association, but it
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: is like a very strong association with her, And we
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: still go to like the closest Asian grocery whenever we're together,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: which like sadly hasn't been for a while, um, but
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: like we'll always do at least one day where there's
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: a big shop and then like a big dinner make
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: creon food for me. Like the day that my book published,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I was I was staying with her in Portland and
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I was like, this is like amazing. I don't know,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: so I don't think it's like the same as it
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: is like for a lot of other people, but I do.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: I do really associate it with like her and with family,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: just like not quite with like childhood or home. Yeah,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: it's like so different, but you're making new memories, which
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: is amazing. We do have more of this conversation for you,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for word
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: get back into it. Then you said you have two children,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: now if you kind of put that in their world
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: as well, like bringing that kind of culture to them.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I know you had referenced your daughter wanting to learn
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Korean um and trying to become more part of that culture.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Has that been a big part of their growing up?
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: I guess yeah, it hasn't been as big as I
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: would have liked it to be. Honestly, I think it's
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: just hard, like being adopted up. I feel like I
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: was always starting from like so far behind that it's
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: like just it's not like I have like a goal
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: of like pete Korean that like when I get there,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: I'll just feels right, Like I think I'll always feel
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: just a little bit shaky in the identity, and it
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: does it like it is harder to pass on just
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: because of that like total cultural separation. I mean that said,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: like I do enjoy times when my daughter and I
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: will like you know, practice Korean or like make we'll
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: try to make food together, Like I'm not very good
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: at it, but you know, like there are and she
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: really likes and she also likes cooking with my sister,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: so like when my sister is here, like it's it's
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: great to have someone who knows what they're doing. Um,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is a part of their heritage and
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: there I think they're very proud of it, you know.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: And when I think about like what it means for
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: them to have connections to other parts of their culture,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, they're more connected to Korean
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: and I guess maybe like the Lebanese part of their
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: culture because of things like food, which is so I
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: mean not that you can reduce a culture to its food,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: but it's just so, I mean, it's so wonderful to share,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: to pass on impact. You can hold onto that after
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: you've lost so many other things. I think, like they
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: do identify with that, and I know my older daughter, especially,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: like is much more aware of things, strongly identifies as
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: like you know, as Asian and American, as Korean, as
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: not white. But I don't know, I think they're their
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: understandings are definitely still evolving, and I try not to
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: speak too much about their personal like how they identify.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's their story to tell, but I do think,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's like part of their life,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: and probably more so that it would have been like
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: if I hadn't searched, and so in that sense, it's
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: not like mission accomplished. It's just like, you know, that's
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: like one more thing I think, think about. And they
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: have these people in their lives to like my sister,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: like their cousin, um, you know, who they wouldn't have
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: had otherwise, and that's you know, those relationships are important
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: for so many reasons. I love that. But yeah, you
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: did say something about identity, and actually I just posted
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: recently on my own Twitter, I'm so cool. I'm not
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: m about the fact that when I was as I'm
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: reading your book, I'm having to unravel a lot, not
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: just with the book, but just my whole life in
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out my identity again since honestly, even
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: though beforehand, yes, racism is always there, I've always known
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a different race. I'm always known that I've been
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: the only white kid, um not that's what I've had again,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: only Asian kids in a very white community, only person
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: of color in a very white community. As well, growing
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: up um and understanding that I had a lot of
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: things to deal with and fighting so hard as a
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: child to fit in and assimilate that I had to
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: almost and it wasn't because of anybody else other than
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: my own insecurity is like hating myself for being a
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: person of color, for being a girl that was not wanted,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: you know, in this time frame or in this culture,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and then trying to grow up and trying to figure
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: out which place do I sit, which way do I go?
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: You know. And one of the things that I've had
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: this conversation and someone said to me, You're like, wow,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: it's like a double imposter syndrome, and just she I'm
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: like what she's like, Not only are you trying to
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: prove that your Asian and you don't know if your
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Asian community will accept you, you're also trying to prove
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: you're not Asian to Asian for the white community at
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: one point in time, so they'll you know that model
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: minority can be a part of your identity, such my identity, UM.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: So on that. Have you ever had that experience as well,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: like trying to figure out and how have you gone
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: through it or have you been able to go and
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: pass that? Yeah, I don't know if there's any getting pasted,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: which I hope there's not like real discouraging to people.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: But like by that, I just mean like it'll always
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: be part of your experience, even if like you get
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: to a point where I don't know you've done the
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: work or you're at peace with it, or like you've
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: moved beyond trying to like appease any other like individual
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: or a group of people. I just think, like you
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: carry that with you, like that memory, and I think
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: it's so hard to see when you're in the midst
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: of it. Like I probably if I were still living
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: in my very white hometown, I don't know how much
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: harder it would have been to do this unpacking to
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: figure it out. I don't know if I ever would
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: have been able to, because like the white by default
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: framework was just I mean, that was just like my
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: day to day, Like I had to be removed from
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: it and experienced something else to like look back and
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: even begin to like unpack the impact and to think
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: about like ways like the scars I carried, the ways
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: it was like you know, harmful, um, you know, the
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: things that were often nobody's fault, but just like a
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: way of how I experienced the world because I was
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: the only one for so many years. I definitely I've
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: said before, I think that to some people trying to
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: action adoptees, and let's be honest, is an American adoptees
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: because of the model minority myth, I think in some
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: ways we are like to some white people like the
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: ultimate and like accessibility in terms of people of color, like,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: but then I mean, like we're just so easily if
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: they can relate to anybody, they can relate to us
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: because you know, because model minority, because we grow up
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: in white families, Like we're socialized in these ways because
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: like because there is a lot of assimilation at work, um,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: and you've got that proximity to whiteness, which is not
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: the same as having white privilege ourselves, but like there
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: is definitely like some and I've never really succeeded in
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: figuring it out for myself, but there is like some
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: associated privilege, like in just in terms of the proximity
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: to whiteness and like having that comfort. I mean the
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: flip side is it can also like make you really
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: unsure of yourself as like a Korean or Asian American, right,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: And I've there were definitely like years really not so
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: much now, but like you know, I can think of
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: years where like an all white room would have felt
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: like way more comfortable to me, say it, than like
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: an Asian American room. And you know, Goden not that
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: those are the only two races, but you know what
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, for the purposes of my upbringing and identity,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: like those are the two things I was caught between.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: And there are many years where like I would have
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: not wanted to be white even but like that room
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: would have felt more comfortable, Like I would have felt
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: like I knew how to handle myself. So this is
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: a very long winded way of saying, Like I think
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: it's just ongoing, like um, the work of like processing
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: and dealing with that and thinking about what it means
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: and you know, like figuring out to like because we're
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: not the only people in the room, like what does
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: solidarity look like? Like what is required of us? Like
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: given our positioning and our proximity to whiteness, and like
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: whatever comfort we have or don't have with it, Like
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: I mean that's like it's like taking it a step further.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: But before you can even think about like what what
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: solidity looks like as like an adopted Asian person in
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: this country. You know, you have to think you have
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: to have already done the work of like examining how
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: how that affected you and your your worldview and your
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: biases and all of that. Yeah, it's fascinating and it's
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: all really hard. It is. It is so many things.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Obviously I've made this on my show right now that
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: I'm asking all of the questions and I'm like, let
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: me ask you this, Um, But I did have one
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: more and then, Annie, I promise I'm done, because I
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: do want to come back to the bond between you
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: and your sister and just how important it is that
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: we are able to see that type of bond, not
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: only the fact that you guys reconnected in what seemed
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: like an impossible moment to connect and finding a kinship
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: in such a closeness. Um, just can you talk about
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: your relationship and how it has obviously there's a lot
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: of healing in that and what that looked like for you. Yeah.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think, like a lot of adoptees, when
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: I used to imagine, like maybe I'll search for my
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: birth family someday, maybe we'll connect, I was always picturing
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: like my birth parents. I mean I was I've also
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: always wanted to blink, so like it's kind of weird
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: in a way. I didn't think about birth siblings as
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: much as like a real possibility, but I didn't, Like
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: I was just so focused on like you know, I mean,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: they're literally the people who made you, so I was.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: I guess I was sort of focused on that. But
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: the reunion with my sister was just so unexpected in
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: so many ways, Like it was not I thought of
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: it as like an unlooked for gift, Like it really
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: it was such a surprise to me that like that
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: this would be i don't know, the greatest, the greatest
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: thing that really came out of that whole experience for
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: both of us, you know. And in terms of healing,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: like I also had always thought of it as kind
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: of like maybe if there was any healing at all,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: it would be like in me finding answers to questions
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: I'd always had, and in my birth parents like knowing
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: that I was okay, and like maybe not having to
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: like regret their choice if they had ever regretted it.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is also, I now know, like a
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: really simplistic way of looking at it, but like that's
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: what I was thinking, Like if we're able to offer
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: each other any closure or healing at all, Like surely
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: that's what it will be. I had not thought again,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: like what like what siblings could like need, um if
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: they were in the picture. Um, Like I wouldn't presume
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: to say, like I've healed my sister, and it's it's
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: even like maybe a little too reductive to say she's
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: healed me. But like we both really needed each other,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Like we both really needed for various reasons, like that
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: kind of family connection that kind of like like support
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: uh and mutual aid um, just like knowing that someone
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: was going to be in your corner no matter what,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Like I get lost in cliche is sometimes when I
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: talk about it. But like I mean, I think we
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: both needed that that type of relationship, And it wouldn't
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: have occurred to me that I could provide that for
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: somebody like I I don't know. I just I figured,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: like if I had siblings, they would have been fine
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: without me, like they've been without me their whole lives
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: like that. In Cindy's case, she had no idea I
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: was alive, um, And so like I don't know. At
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: so many points, I was like, are you sure, Like
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: why like why are you wasting time with me? Like
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: in a way, because like what I didn't know what
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: I had to really offer, um, And it was really
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: only after like meeting her in person and talking about
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: like what our families and our upbringings were like, and
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: like thinking about her life. Then you know, just like
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I started to wonder like if there was something that
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: she needed that I could provide to So I don't know,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: I mean that's how it started. We're several years on now,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: let's see, like at least twelve years, and we're still
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: really close. I missed her a lot. I don't know
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: what I'm going to get to see her because she
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: lives across the country. Um. But you know, up until
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: like this year, we tended to see each other at
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: least once. Sometimes we were lucky, and like it was
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: twice a year. I don't know how to even express
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: it in words. Sometimes, like I guess I'm not that
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: good at a writer, but like she really is in
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: so many ways, just like this steadfast um presence, and
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: like she's so strong and she's so compassionate. She really
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: is like like my hear in a lot of ways. Um,
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: So I just feel really fortunate that like this thing
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: that I never would have expected to come out of
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: my search is what what came out of it. And
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: not just for me, but again like for my kids,
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: you know, she's just there, you know, she's just there,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: arent Cindy, like they have always known her. They don't
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: remember not knowing her. And like actually, like I don't know,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: both for both my niece and my kids, Like I
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: think they like to ask questions and hear about the
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: story again because like I mean, for them, it's just
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: the way it is. It's always been this way. They've
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: always had each other and like us in their lives.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: But like I think it's interesting to them how like
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily going to be that way, Like if
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: we hadn't both taken steps to kind of put our family,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: our family back together in this way, like you know,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't know each other. So I don't know, I
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: don't know, Like I I'm definitely rambling now. I love
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: it feels so big. Yeah, I just feel really again,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: just really really um I'm just really thankful that like
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: that's what happened, because it was not something I ever
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: would have you know, I would have expected, And I
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: love that you have a support system and through all
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: of this became such a beautiful story of bonding. Um,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: it was beautiful. Like I said, it was written so
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: well that I was just like, that's fantastic. It always
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: just like this is a fiction. Thank you, I mean,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: and thank you for reading it. I also I am
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: conscious of how, like you know, I sometimes feel like
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: adoption stories hit really close to the bone for me. Um,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: it's interesting. I kind of struggle more with it sometimes
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: in fiction, like where it's like a plot device. I
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: sometimes do better if it's nonfiction. But anyway, like I
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: appreciate you spending time with it because I just feel
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: like there's an extra emotional investment. Maybe maybe there's an
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: extra reward too with if you identify with any part
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: of it. Did I felt seen and I loved that
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: even though the story was different, there were still like
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: parts of this it was like yes and and you.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: For the lack of better words, like not necessarily a
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: happy ending, but things that made sense and coming together
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: for you does feel somewhat fulfilling for me as a
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: person who doesn't have that open apportioned to my or
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: that insight to that half of my life. So it's
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: really nice to see, as well as being able to
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: again feel represented. Like I told Annie a while ago,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: one of the only books that I've ever been able
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: to read that had anything to do with anything about
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: me outside of like having at least a Chinese person
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: in the Babysitters Club was just as long as We're
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Together by Judy Blue and adopted Yes Asian girl, um.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: And it made me feel like, oh, wow, well, look
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: there's someone else who they're treating as a normal child
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: having you know, issues as an adolescent. This is beautiful.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: So to see more and more, it's so important and
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: it's so wonderful to see. And yeah, I'm not gonna
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: lie I was. I was hesitant because I was afraid
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: of the things that it may bring out of me.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: And I've had to work out so much as a
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: social worker in this field, trying to advocate for kids
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: who are in foster care and such. But seeing this story, um,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: not only because yes, transractional adoption is is different from
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: the adoption within the US, and we know this um
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: not just within the US, but within the cultures and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: what it looks like and again what it has this
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: whole fetish size fairy tale behind it, and that's what
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: you see his representations. I'm like, oh god, what's wrong
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: with me if I'm not that perfect story that came
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: out like that. But to see something that's like, yeah,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: this is the reality. It's not all bad, it's not
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: all great, and this is how it became. It was
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: a beautiful life to see that wasn't mine. That made sense.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: So thank you for writing, and thank you for coming on.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie again. I've been so excited and
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: kind of nervous. I really appreciate the invitation. Yeah, and
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: thank you m Annie. Sorry, no drowning moment. I'm so sorry. No,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: this is so great. This is so great, and you
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: you touched on like all of the things I read. Yeah,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: we were kind of about outline on how we were
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: going to talk about the book. This is gonna be perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: I guess I would just like to say that as
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: someone who does right, I've never considered writing a memoir.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: But as a podcaster, we sometimes experienced that sort of
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: vulnerability of people know a lot about us, but we
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: don't know them, and so I almost feel a little strange.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Asking me a personal questions about your life even though
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: you w wrote the book M but I did appreciate,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: um how you painted the complexity of family and you
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: talked about um like the origin stories we often tell
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: ourselves and then questioning that and what that meant for you. Um,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: because I do think that even um, my dad wasn't adopted,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: but he wasn't raised by his parents, He wasn't officially adopted.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: And I didn't even know who my real grandparents were
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: untild well, I thought my other grandparents that they weren't
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: related to me and I didn't know it. But like
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: they are, these stories we tell and having to come
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: to terms of just how complicated your feelings can be
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: with family and why you tell them. Um. So I
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: was it was lovely to see that nuance and complexity expressed. Uh.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if there's any piece of that
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: that you feel like you can speak to or you
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: want to expound on in terms of like writing like
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: a personal story for like public consumption. You mean, yeah,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: And just like the kind of origin stories we tell ourselves,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with those, like I, UM, I don't know.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: We we can all think about those stories and our
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: families that have been told so many times it's like
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: you might have you probably have like no memory of
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: it yourself, like probably many of them took place before
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: you were born, but you're just like, yeah, that was
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: like established fact, and like like there's just no questioning
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: that stuff is like bedrock. Um. And I when I
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: was writing the book, I was thinking about how like
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: questioning that can feel like questioning someone's religion, you know,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: or like they're very just it's such a deeply held
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: personal belief. And yet that I think if you're going
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: to think about adoption or like any family topic with
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: real complexity, you have to build in a little bit
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: of space for questioning those like like the family lore,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: and for like thinking about the people who aren't there
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: or whose voices maybe just aren't the loudest. But that's
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: the other thing I've noticed in families, like without naming names,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: like I'm sure we can all think of people in
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: the family who like it's sort of like their take
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: on things ends up being the dominant take or like
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: the people whose opinions are like kind of the loudest
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: in the strongest, But that doesn't mean other people aren't
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: having like wildly different experiences or might not have different opinions,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: and so I mean that's just like a factor in
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: every family, whether or not adoptions involved, whether or not
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: there's something like dramatic it, or whether there's estrangement. You know,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: there's always there's always other perspectives. So now I like
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: to think about all that. Personally. I find origin stories
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: fascinating because they are literally what make us, and like
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: they form our world views in a lot of ways.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: And yet like so much of the like the biggest
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: questions and like the hardest work and the most interesting
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: writing also comes from like when you start to reconsider
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: like those long held truths. I mean, I just I
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: love that stuff, and so yeah, I mean I like
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: to read it like beyond even beyond them more like
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: it's sort of like themes I look for in general.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: I look for it in stories that I edit and publish.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: I just like I always love to see a writer
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: asking those big questions are like challenging, like a dominant narrative. Yeah,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where a lot of the best,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: like the best stories wind up coming from. Annie Spine
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: more notes for her fiction. I write other things and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: fan fiction. But I don't know, I don't believe you
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: what's your fandom? Do you do you want me to
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: You don't have to say no, no, no no. I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: write um primarily Star Wars original trilogy and Harry Potter. Yeah,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: and right now, the one I'm writing on right now
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: is two hundred and fifty pages, okay, and all the
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: stuff is so tragic. It is what I've discovered. She
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: will always come up with, Oh my god, the things
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: I've done to my characters. I'm so sad. I thought
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: about it sometimes. I feel legitimate guilt. Sorry, keep going.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to push that in always telling people
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: your hobbies. Thank you. I'm sure it's not without embarrassing me,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: not at all. I'm proud of what you do because
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: I could not do it. I've written many of things,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: and they're all short stories because I'm like and I'm done.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: Short stories are so hard though, Like just the I'm like,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: how do you do it? How do you like create?
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: I don't can't do beyond that because I'm like, I'm
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: done now. It's such as I'm just like, how do
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: you have the arc and the characterization and the setting,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, the basic building plots of the story in
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: a very very small space, knowing you don't get anymore
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: like that's it. I think that's actually magic. I feel
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: like I know writer's best when I can get their
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: short stories like that. I think that's why I love
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: like Southern Gothic, because a lot of those writers start
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: off with small essays. And I love that death because
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: I like that mystery that it involts. Anyway, this has
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: gone to it completely different. I'm sorry any questions that
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: I just cut you off of. No, this relates a
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: great segue. Um. Do you have any projects that you're
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: working on that you're excited about? Oh gosh, I mean
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: I'm always like working on like essays here and there.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: I've like started unfinished novels, and I have sold my
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: second book, so I'm working on another work. It's I mean,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: I keep calling it like a memoir and essays. I
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: think it'll feel I think it'll feel quite a written
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: form than all. You can never know, but um, but yeah,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's going to be like essays revolving around
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: like grief and class and my I mean, I actually
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: sold it before my mother, my adopted mom passed away
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: earlier this year, just three months ago. And it's strange
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: to be writing about grief in the midst of this.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: This also, I wasn't actually anticipating when the books sold,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: but I mean, I think I have a lot of
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: work to do before. I think it'll just take time. Um,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: but that is the next thing. It's been sold, so
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: I do have to deliver it. Um. So yeah, it'll
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: it'll be a while in coming. But that's very exciting
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: um to read the book, not the process. Sorry, UM.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: And yeah you have. I've read a few essays have
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: you as you were talking about um writing uh, doing
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: grief and what would because I think people as you
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: talk about it, it's cathartic for people as well as
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: there's many writers who are going through some really tough times,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: whether it's a grief of a love more. Like you said,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: what is your advice on that? And how do you
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: care for yourself? At the same time, Yeah, I feel
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: much less qualified to give advice in this because I
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm not It's honestly just been really hard
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: because I don't have like with the first book, I
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: had several years of removal from it, and this is
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: all just really fresh and it's really raw, and in
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: some ways like that means the emotions very easy to access,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: and in other ways it could just feel like a flood.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I can I find it seems very overwhelming. So
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: like in terms of taking care of yourself, like I mean,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: I do, I give myself permission to take breaks, sometimes
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: quite long ones. I recognized how much of this book
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: will probably like take form what I'm not writing, so
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: like when I when I do step back and go
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: for a long walk, or like really think or look
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: through photos or just like remember my parents. Um, like
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of a lot of the work
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: of this book will it'll have to be done like well,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not writing, which is which is not to say
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: writing isn't still the job, because it's the job. But
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: I'm learning as I get older, how much of writing
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: is everything else that you do too, I mean, and
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: specifically the time that you take just think and just
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: be um and ask yourself questions and like you know,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: try to answer them. So much of that work is interior,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: you know, or you could actually do it with friends
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: and family, but it's so like it takes place away
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: from the computer screen and then hopefully you go back
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: and you've got like a clearer vision and you've got
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: more focus and you're feeling the punished and you can
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: tackle like the next, the next thing. But it is
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: it's a really different experience from writing the first book,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: and which was fast. I mean I wrote it in
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: like ten eleven months. I think this will take longer
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: and I think it will be harder. I joked about
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: this on Twitter recently. I was like, I felt it
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: really hard to revisit things I've written before, and like
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: eventually I developed kind of a deep loathing for everything
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: I wrote, like, let's say more than three years ago.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: So I'm not saying the book sex because buy the
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: book and read it. But what I mean is like,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: as a writer, I do feel like I always have
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: my best works ahead, Like I have to actually believe
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: that in order to keep writing because it's hard. So
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: um yeah, I mean I keep telling myself like, this
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: is difficult, but like if you can do it, like
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: I think it will mean something and I think, you know,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I hope it can be. I hope it just builds
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: on like what I've done. And again, you always just
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: hope it means something to someone. Where can people find you?
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I'm at Nicole s J. Chump on both Twitter and Instagram. Yes,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: and that's how we found you online. Um, and yes
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: you should also if you haven't already read her book
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: all you can ever know. It's not just for adoptees, obviously.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: It is a beautiful story about relationships, love, finding yourself, childhood, children,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: all the things, all the good things in there. So
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: I'm really thankful to you both for like reading the
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: book and taking the time. It was my pleasure to
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: be here. Thank you so much. And now you are
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: also one of the people that I will call a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: close friend because this is what I do. I use
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: the show to make friends with people that sorry checks out.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: I think that's fine. I'm gonna tell everyone this is
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: my close friend Nicole. Yeah, we're gonna read her book.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: We've talked about like a while. I think I think
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: it's a solid fun and that brings us to the
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: end of this very special edition of book Club. So
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: thank you so much Nicole for joining us. I cannot
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: say how much this meant to me on a personal level.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: And and we do want to eventually come back and
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: revisit the conversation of females and women, baby girls being
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: adopted more so than boys and sons. In this whole
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: conversation of why our son's preferred over daughters. And I
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: know this has been in a conversation before in our
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: podcast previously. I know the controversy of trains racial adoption
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: has already been talked about, but kind of digging deeper
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: up this value of you know, male or female and
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: then the complexity of adoption how it gets intertwined. So
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: we do want to talk about that too. For those
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: who are like, wait, this is not specific to feminism,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: get it, um, but it's uh, it's it was such
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: a personal thing for me and um. Having her as
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: a writer who is a strong mother, sister, daughter, in
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: playing this whole scenario her life out for the public
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: has been a privilege to discuss with our So again,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: thank you Nicole for being a part of this. For
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: those who stuck around and listen to the whole thing,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: I hope you did because it was really fun for
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: us to do. For for me specifically, thank you for
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: listening and kind of digging into what it is to
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: see in this type of life and childhood. Yes, yes, absolutely,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: and cannot recommend it enough. It did occur to me
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: that like, I don't know if it's made the final cut.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: But you kept bringing up my fan fiction and she asked,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: what fandoms are you writer? Do you write? I was
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: like Harry Potter and Star Wars, which are both use
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: adoption um as kind of a plot point, and you
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: were what you helped me understand that better for my
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: fan fiction, Samantha came to Leah and Luke. But yeah, yeah,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: so just in thinking about that, how often we do
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: see that intermedia? Um? But yes, yes, uh so, thanks
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: again to Nicole. If you have any recommendations for our
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: next book club, we're all ears, thanks to anyone, to
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: everyone who's already sent them. Um, we are keeping a list.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: We do you keep track, but keep them coming. You
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at i
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: heart media dot com, or you can find us on
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: Twitter at Mom's Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: I've Never Told You. Thanks. It's always to our superproducer
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: Andrew Howard. Thank you and thanks to you for listening
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You the protection of I Heart Radio.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: For a more podcast from I heart Radio, visit the
• 1:13:51
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• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Ye