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ENGLAND FRUSTRATED BY GHANA | Ronaldo & Messi Make History | Outside the Box · Outside the Box with Leon Osman and Tony Bellew

• 0:16
  I'm sure a lot of people have some thoughts over the England-Kharnock game last night. So, go on, Ozzy, kick us off. What went wrong? Oh, I usually like Tony to go first in terms of... Not what went wrong, Tony, but... How are you feeling, frustration-wise? What are you feeling going into it? Were you happy? No, I'm not going to lie. I kind of expected it. Did you? You did say the other week that you think there was going to be a draw on the group stage. I just think, you know...
• 0:44
  The African nations have impressed me the most with being able to shut teams down. I just think they shut up shop really well. They defend their units. And it's right across the board with them all. I thought they've all been really good. So I've been mighty impressed with them. And like I said, without knocking it, I did say there was going to be a draw. So yeah, there's your draw. There has been some good defending, some good...
• 1:08
  defensive blocks what we call it low blocks and that these days sit deep sit and deep don't give these whoppers the chance with the fancy words but there's been some teams that have been very well organised Portugal frustrated in the first game Spain as well us now in the second game I think
• 1:26
  I think it sort of resonated differently for us, and maybe a little bit better, because we actually started the tournament brilliantly with that result against Croatia. We did before we drew our second game against America. I can't remember, but now we won the first game. So stupid, didn't we? Was it six or something like that?
• 1:44
  I mean, we scored a lot of goals. 6-2, was that Panama, was it? First game last time. But we started, you know, we started well. So I don't think there's absolute panic at this stage because, you know, we've drawn group stage games before and we've gotten to the last stage of the competitions for a while now, which is great. But...
• 2:04
  We were built up so much, weren't we? We were sort of thinking, this is it. We're going to destroy. We've got a new manager into the tournament, Thomas Tuchel, who knows how to win games. He's solved all our problems already, and here we go. And it wasn't the case. It was still the same old kind of things, which I've got to be honest, I'm a little bit more educated on myself now. Despite my visible frustration and my annoyance at the game, wanting to turn up and enjoy it,
• 2:32
  We've seen Gareth Southgate be pragmatic and just at least make sure he doesn't get beat enough to get through. And as Harry Kane described it after the game tonight, they break it down. It was actually interesting because he sounded, for a long time now, they've sounded like Thomas Tuchel's miniatures coming out and saying Thomas Tuchel things. But after the game last night, I thought he sounded a little bit like Gareth Southgate again. We always break this tournament into... Is that a good thing?
• 2:58
  Well, yeah, because Gareth Southgate's principles and ideals got us to the latter stages of tournaments. It didn't get us over the line, no. No, but we're not at that stage now. We're at the principles that Gareth Southgate was actually really good at in terms of break the tournament down into two separate bits. The group stage is first half of a tournament, do your job to get through and get to where you need to be, and then you assess the second half of the tournament from there. So I actually didn't mind hearing...
• 3:25
  A little bit to Gareth Southgate again last night because we've got to the latter stages of the last four major tournaments, quarterfinals at the very least. So don't come away from that too much. I think it's quite simple. Just you're in a game like that. You've won the first game. You've got decent amounts of goals as well in the game. Don't lose the next. You're through. I'm sorry to say that. And that may not sound exciting to the England fans and all of us as scousers, but ultimately you're through, mate.
• 3:54
  And you're going in that last game and you know he's going to mix the faces up now 100%. He's going to give a couple of rest and I'll tell you now, they'll give these a good item. To a point, because, and I do think he'll rotate again, but it's not like a game where we can rest players because although we're expected to win, we can't just rest our top players. We've got to go out there and actually get the result because Ghana beat Panama. You're talking we beat Panama in the World Cup.
• 4:22
  6-2, I think it was, or one of the high-scoring games anyway. Well, Ghana beat Panama 1-0 in the 95th or 6th minute. Croatia just beat them 1-0. That's Stiles. They've gone into that game wanting just to... It's when Panama turn up and they just want to snatch a draw or last-minute thing against us. Panama now, no.
• 4:43
  They're going nowhere if they don't win. I think they're out already. Are they out already? They've lost both their first two games. Yeah, I think they're out. I'm sure three points can still get you through. No, but they'll finish, because of the way it's gone now, they'll finish bottom of the group because Croatia have beat them, Ghana have beat them, and we're already on four points. So they can only finish fourth. So even with three points, they can't finish there. Surely they must want to go out on a high.
• 5:06
  I think going out on a high to them would be a draw against England. I think that would be a great result. So we're going to face the same thing we did against Ghana. Ghana just about got over the line against them in the 95th minute. Croatia only beat them 1-0. I expected that to be 2 or 3 minimum. So it's going to be more of the same, I've got to be honest.
• 5:27
  What was I saying? I think we'll start a different side. I think you'll see the likes of Rashford start. I think you'll see the likes of Saka start. I think you even might see Oli Watkins start. And I think you just go, we're going to get at you. Well, that was the thing last night. I mean, I don't know what you thought of our starting team last night, either of you. I don't know what you thought. I'll tell you my opinion in a minute. But there was a lot of calls for when they're defending so deep.
• 5:53
  why we didn't go with two up front. Bring on Tony. If we're now getting to the end of the game where crosses seem to bring us a little bit of success, why not bring on Ivan Tony at that point because he's a big presence in the penalty area? Why not, if there was a different thought at the start of the second half, bring on Ollie Watkins to stretch the back line to then give Harry Kane a bit of space? Because Harry Kane came out as part of his interview after the game, said how difficult it was because Thomas Partey basically man-marked him in that hybrid role he likes to come into, which is still left...
• 6:23
  Then with two centre-backs kind of free and able to come out. So tactically, it didn't work for us last night. Yeah, I don't think we took enough risks, either in the way that we played or through the changes that impacted the game. I just think it was so hard to find space in the final third. Listen to me, they had 11 men behind the ball. Even Jordan, he was right back. I mean, he was behind the ball when he was defending. They were just defending for their lives and fair play to them. They frustrated us, but... I love a plaster he had on his head, that one. Oh, man.
• 6:52
  more than a plaster it's a swimming cat and he was a fellow with the spiderweb across his eye I don't know which kind of physio just strapping them up I'll tell you what he needs a bit of help he needs a bit of educating as well I just feel for me they were the hard team to play against are we being too nice here? no I just think I'm believing in Thomas Tuchelmoor to be honest because there's no point in going against it now he's picked the squad that he's picked
• 7:18
  And I heard the shouts last night of, oh, imagine what Cole Palmer could have done there last night. And I was obviously thinking about Phil Foden. Of course you were. What he can do. Phil's number one fan. Yeah, Phil's not left my mind since the last podcast. But I just think you back him now. And I think we are going to get the best out of him. I think he will get the best out of him. I think that's a worthwhile debate, though. If Tuchel has brought someone like Cole Palmer or Foden, does someone like that impact that game? Because it didn't look like we had a plan B.
• 7:47
  Ideally, yes, because when they're defending so deep, the pockets of spaces in between the lines are the most key. But he's also got Roger. Bellingham's very good in his all-around game, but I'd say Palmer and Fodor are exceptional. They're specialists probably in those positions. I probably thought, as they would have come on earlier, and Roger's because, again, they are...
• 8:17
  In that squad, the most specialist in their positions, basically receiving the ball on the back foot, playing quick passes. When Eze came on, I thought he played a little bit too deep. I didn't think he played in those positions. But my...
• 8:33
  My worry was right from the very start when Nico O'Reilly wasn't playing. I've said to you in the previous one, I think Nico O'Reilly, if we get to the latter stages or potentially win, he could be the key because he's like a Swiss army knife. He can do a little bit of everything depending on what you need. He actually sees himself...
• 8:53
  Long term, he come out and did an interview, and although he's playing central midfield and left back, he thinks he's number 10. And you can see that in the way... Really? Yeah. And you can see that in the way he's kind of playing. He's playing left, but you saw that when he come on. And he goes and plays central mid, then he'll go and play number 10, then he'll go and get in the box for crosses.
• 9:12
  And we lacked that and we knew we were playing against a deep defence. Okay, it was nice. Antibarri came out again for the half-time Antibarri show, which I enjoyed by the way. They were playing deeper than we expected to.
• 9:27
  which caught us off guard. Maybe that was the reason they didn't play Barry, and they thought Spence was more important for the counter-attack. I kind of understood that, but I would have played Spence on the right because I'm still not fully convinced by Rhys-James, me. Both ends of the pitch. I'd have played Spence on the right if you felt he was needed for counter-attack. I just don't think you can leave O'Reilly, especially against low blocks. When he'll go and play number 10, he'll go and get on the half-term. He's very good at playing in the pockets. He said that he'll play at number 10 like...
• 9:54
  Have you ever seen that before? A left back saying he's a 10? It's just the way he's progressed through his time and he's been moved to these positions. Yeah, he's been moved to these positions to get a game. It's kind of probably easier to get a game there when you've got Bernardo Silva you're competing against and people like that in them roles. So, yeah, I just think that O'Reilly's the key. Do you think Tuchel was wrong to drop him?
• 10:23
  I don't think he would say drop him. I think he's come out and said 15 players in our squad that are all starters, which is probably right. So there'll be a rotation between them. How does that work then with the others, Josh? Is that a bit of a slant against you? Because if you're in that 20-man, 20-man squad, and you don't like the 16 players, does the 16 know who they are? So, you know, Jordan Anderson's on the bench, that's nice, and he's slapping players' hands when they're coming off as if he's a coach. I'm a high-fiver. Are you...
• 10:50
  Are you a coach or are you a player, mate? Because you're looking every bit as a coach because I haven't seen you once. Henderson will kind of know his role. The two substitute keepers know that they're not starters. So there's three of you, 26 already. So you'll start to... Ivan Toney probably knows he's not one of the starters. You need to go Ivan Toney. He's going to be on. But you will get to the point where there's probably four players that... 16 to 20 that...
• 11:16
  probably weren't quite sure if they were the starters or not, and then start to realise two and three games in that they're not. Chalabar, who's just come into the squad, he'll be one. So there will be an understanding of those that are back up. And the rest are going to get rotated. But I just feel all the way through the tournaments, I just...
• 11:36
  Nico O'Reilly had to be, especially in games when you're playing against deep teams where there's no space, and he can be a left-back and go and play number 10 and get in the box. I think he's key to... Because when you're playing against these kind of teams, a couple of things, you've got to do the unexpected, which he pops up all over the place unexpectedly, so that does it first. And then you've got to run in behind, and he did a little bit of that, but...
• 12:02
  What we did brilliantly in the first game, which was the rotation and Kane coming deep and the wide men going forward, full backs getting around the back. We never did that down the left because Spence didn't want to be outside the left. Gordon kept coming in, but also our two number 10s, I think Wayne showed it on the BBC for his analysis. The two number 10s kept coming deep. Kane kept coming deep. The Garnetian defence never actually had to, well, hardly ever had to turn and run backwards. Only once or twice Bellingham made a run from deep.
• 12:32
  That's my reason. Why do we need two defensive midfielders? Why? Maybe in a game like that, you don't particularly. I think in other games we do. You have to stop the counter-attack.
• 12:43
  they only had two chances with that but it was dangerous and it was a penalty by the way oh by the way yeah I was lucky not to at least concede a free kick in that moment and he comes out yeah the fella's not even looking at the ball you're a keeper though aren't you you're in the keeper's unit I know you think you're a striker I'm not a keeper my son's a keeper I'm not a keeper piss off
• 13:05
  It's just a fact of he comes out and that forward's not even looking and he clasps his picker's left. I don't know, I think Pickford's like, he's smart but he's lucky. My mates are cop-outs and they were like, he's got to go. He's reckless and I'm like, what are you doing? It was reckless, I thought. He's got to come. If Pickford doesn't come, he's in one-on-one.
• 13:22
  I think whatever decision he's making there doesn't get overturned because there was a little bit of everything in that. There was the striker went to get the ball, missed it, clattered Pickford. Pickford went to get the ball, missed it, clattered the strike. Which, whichever way the ref gave that. Pickford had to come, though, because there's forwards in. He's ahead of the defender. So Pickford has to come. There's no question about that. I don't know if a keeper ever has to come unless they can get it. No, he has to come. Because he has to come a second earlier.
• 13:48
  Yeah. Possibly, possibly, but... Can't come if you're not getting it. That Garnier and Ford, to look back at that thing, he's in. He's ahead of the England defender and he's in. I think it was Conser who he was in against. And he's beat him in a race. How he's done, I don't know, but he was ahead. He's still got a penalty? No, I'm not sure. Still the... Yeah, the pick for the thing. With a penalty. Because he said it's offside, didn't he? And it was actually onside. Yeah.
• 14:09
  Well, no, it was offside after that coming together happened because once Konza made the challenge, they both fell on the floor and the guy had to swung his leg to kick it towards goal and it hit Semenyo who was past. Just jumped in the air, he just jumped. Who, Semenyo?
• 14:27
  Konza he just jumped he just jumped let me explain that though Semenyo was offside because the keeper was past the ball and there was only one defender on the line and obviously the keeper and the goalkeeper asked me to so he was offside when it hit Semenyo but the first incident I held my breath like Jesus I cannot believe they didn't go back and lord that I don't get that after how well they've done it to knock on spot well the referee well the referee
• 14:52
  I thought that was the, I mean, I was on the last pod complimenting the referee performance, wasn't I? And saying they were good. Well, that was arguably the worst in what was probably the worst match to watch visually. That was the worst referee in performance. He gave, I think I looked it up because it was frustrating the life of me.
• 15:10
  I think the average was, or is, 22 fouls per game refs have been given in this tournament so far, down from 28-ish in the last World Cup. So trying to keep it going. And this guy gave 38 free kicks, which was not just more, that's a lot more. And it just felt... And then you add in...
• 15:30
  The two head injuries before the two hydration breaks, which just broke the game up. Do you see that? It's usually when one of them got a head injury and then they were all having a drink and was, why did you just go, that was your hydration break, lads? Yeah. Do you know what it is? The hydration breaks are sponsored by PowerAid.
• 15:48
  and you have to have all the things come up. If you've been on it, our cameras are trying to take them out for the BBC and the ITV. We're trying to keep the Powerade out, but if you pay attention to it and look at it, it's a big, let's stop right now, big Powerade sign fly everywhere around. The Powerade hydration break. Infantino's claimed that FIFA are getting no money from these, then there's no financial benefit to them. For FIFA. Now maybe. Lion bastard.
• 16:17
  maybe other people are maybe the Americans are loving it maybe Powerade have played and by the way there are other drinks out there absolutely yeah Lucas said in my opinion it is far more advanced than that I'm just saying it's absolutely I'm happy you've said that because it's disgusting that they've come out and said they're not benefiting just look please just look at the boards everywhere and they have to stop on a certain time and they go now we've got the Powerade
• 16:46
  you know hydration one of the players said to the ref I don't think it was last night we're in a game I think it was Kane who said to him can we get going again yeah I don't think it was last night's game it was he told him no we've got to stop on the Kane goes up to him and goes that can be the hydration thing
• 17:01
  And the referee tells Kane, no. But one of the players during a hydration break said, come on, can we get going again now? And the ref told him, no, we're still on adverts. So we can't get going yet. So it is a part of it. It's frustrating. It's the NFL, mate. It's the Americans. That's what they do. Yeah, it's quarters after me the whole game. Phil Neville. I heard him on the radio yesterday.
• 17:24
  is saying he loves it and he wants them to stay this hydration break. Don't start me off. I'm telling you, your busy mate, Phil, was saying that he likes it. Your busy mate? Did you meet your skipper? He was. He was, yeah. He was very good as well. Did he say why he likes it? Oh...
• 17:42
  I don't I think it's the fact that you can as a manager that's probably been asked and told to say that someone's probably just said to me he's getting paid as well he's on the board at Powerade couple of bunts in your pocket son just say you want this in every Premier League game there you go and their kid will jump on now as well I'm telling you now be on the overlap next week
• 18:00
  I think he thinks it's a good tactic. You know, when you're a manager, you probably want as many opportunities to get and talk as possible, but it just breaks it up. And it's any flow you get in the game. It's got to be stopped. These hydration tags have got to be stopped. They won't be in the World Cup. They won't be stopped here. They've got to be stopped. The only panic is that
• 18:18
  certain executives think this is great for the long-term future of the game, which I don't think any of us really want. I mean, our country's even going nuts with all this sun. Does anyone remember when we were kids? It's just a bit hot. The weather, it's so hot, the climate and the going about. It's on the news for fuck's sake. It's a bit of sun. Get a grip of yourself. It's hotter here in England now. I know, but come on. In the UK than it is over there. Kids not going to school because it's a bit hot.
• 18:48
  on it's a bit hot get a group of yourselves wet wipes just behave yourselves fucking hell kids not going to remember the kids going to school you know mine are
• 19:02
  mine off what you're going to do is leave the gates and it's closed it's a bit odd and just for anyone listening please make sure you do follow the medical advice of oh my god don't you start don't get sucked into following Tony and saying well actually what happened was Tony told me not to don't be doing that
• 19:19
  Jesus Christ, it's a big deal. Just get a grip of yourselves. All my kids tend into toast burns and chemo. Oh, it's a piece of advice. Jesus Christ. And I am no way linked to Tony's advice in that way. Please let me state that right now. This is a disclaimer. Nothing that I say should be taken completely on board. I'm just letting everyone know they are wet wipes and we've got a bit of sun. The world's gone mad. It's like when the snow comes. We should enjoy it. We should be out there. Of course we should.
• 19:45
  It's fantastic. I love it. Off topic slightly. Okay. I thought sun's out this week. I've got some of these big massive bushes in the garden. I'll cut them down thinking I'll be able to do that dead quick. Oh, no. So I went out and bought a chainsaw. Oh, no.
• 20:01
  where's like a hand you should also have a license for one of them watch this now you got on my ladder didn't you I've got blisters look blisters everywhere did you get on a ladder with a chainsaw no not this time I went into the bushes oh no and just cut them all down head height and I've probably managed to do you must be really loud I was out there for about four hours
• 20:19
  They are now. They are now. They are now. They are now. They cut the base of the bushes. Honestly, they were as tall as me house and now they're my head height. The amount of wood I've cut down. But I thought, right, the sun's shining, it'd be great. Why didn't you just get someone in me and sort it out? Because I thought, I think I can do everything myself. I know you can't. I know. You can't, mate. I know, now me bushes are extra small.
• 20:40
  But I've got into the bushes. It's red hot. I thought, I have to take my top off to do this. She's more equipped to do that than you. Oh, yeah, she is, yeah. I've got blisters on my hands, and I need anti-histamines because I've got bits to death. You've got two strapping boys there. Sand them in. They're...
• 20:55
  Send them in I was going to say How do I describe them? Just strap them lads It's not the army I couldn't trust them I couldn't trust them With a knife and fork Never mind the chainsaw The good kids Just send them in Oh they're good kids But I could not trust them With a chainsaw You've got to tell them I tell my two the other day I'll tell them You be careful with that chainsaw Yeah
• 21:14
  They're literally should we best way to describe them both is clumsy they're both clumsy Just send them in there with a saw And where'd they get that from? Because you drop something every pod He's got a point Yeah He's got a point Did you get it from their mum?
• 21:34
  Nate, she listens to this. You're in deep trouble. Anyway, back on track. Back on track. Back to England. One thing I did want to ask you was, obviously he changed the back line. We already spoke a little bit about O'Reilly not being in the team. Looking ahead to Panama, does he go back to Stones and O'Reilly or do you think he makes more changes? I think and hope he goes back to O'Reilly. In fact, yeah, I think both of them come in. Not because...
• 22:03
  Gatier did particularly badly defensively. Are we saying he did that for pace? Is that what I was saying? Well, to be fair, I think... You don't think he punished him? No, no, no. Because he did get caught up in position that first game. Yeah, but I think Thomas Tuchel's quite open and frank when he comes out and talks and he said...
• 22:20
  when asked. He didn't just mess around and hide behind it. He said, look, Mark's gaze a little bit quicker in those moments and he's better on these type of things, so I'm going to play him over John Stones because that's what we've got to deal with more. So I like that. So it depends on how much scouting they've done of Panama, what the danger is. You probably expect us to be getting attacked on the counter-attack, so...
• 22:46
  Conzer will probably still be your main centre-back because of that. I'm impressed with them, to be fair. I wasn't overly secure in my thoughts of thinking he should be starting every week. I don't know where they've got this from. The Conzer is one of the best centre-backs in the country, but I'm not going to lie. Hands up, fair play. I'm impressed with them so far. Attribute-wise, he's got it all. And if you've seen him in the qualifiers, he's played well. I don't think he's better than Gay, but I do think he's done very well, yeah. He's got pace and he's got...
• 23:13
  He's got pace on Gaye and he's got high. Is Gaye slow? He's not slow, but Collins is fast. Okay, I get that, but I think Gaye's a better all-round defender. Yeah, but I think Stones comes back in over Gaye because I thought, and I was shouting at the telly after two and a half minutes. What's stopping you picking Gaye and Stones together?
• 23:34
  Nothing, but in, I just think, pace. I mean, you probably could. So a lack of physicality? No, not physicality, just speed, really. Okay, speed. And maybe in Panama, maybe if Panama's a game where he's actually thought he'll be rotating and he will put stones in and it'll be stones in game, maybe.
• 23:50
  I don't know. I was always worried about with the kid that left back, O'Reilly, just thinking you've been caught out. Is he just give you a little thing here to go, hey, that was your fault, I go. But then it makes so much more sense to me now with what you've said and seeing himself as a 10. And that makes me realise more now this kid is going to roam. He's not a left back. And if he sees himself as a 10, he's going to roam on a pitch. So I think... Only if he's been told... I agree. But only if he's been told he's also an intelligent footballer that does...
• 24:19
  play from the base the manager gives them. And if the managers are saying, we don't mind you going into spaces, then you do it. I also think I've got it wrong with Madweke. I now definitely know why Madweke's being picked. He does as he's told. He is so consistent and he does as he's told. You know exactly what you're getting from Madweke every single time he's on that pitch. He's going to be up and down the channel quick. He's not looking to necessarily score goals himself and he's always going to put crosses in the box. It's not like Anthony Gordon, where on the left hand side, you don't know if he's going to cross or he's going to shoot.
• 24:49
  Madweke, you know he's going to run down that line, he's going to beat a man, and he's going to cross the ball. And I think that's why Madweke, it's so clear to me now that, because I was thinking, how are you taking Madweke over a Foden or a Palmer, and now understand why? His pace is rapid as well. Yeah, he is quick. But he's so unselfish, and he works so hard. I was disappointed in both of them, Gordon and Madweke, I've got to be honest. I think there was... I'm surprised Gordon started, to be fair. I think there was...
• 25:15
  Little reasons in terms of, I don't think we got the ball quick enough, especially for Gordon. I felt Chet Spence kept running towards Gordon with the ball. And then give him it, give him a minute about four or five yards away rather than giving him it early. And I'll come back on to the defence and stuff in a minute.
• 25:34
  But I thought our wide men were a little bit disappointing. Everybody kept coming inside. We had a bit of joy when Madweke went on the outside, and yet that only happened once in the first half. As a teammate, I'd be saying, get on the outside every time now. Tuchel told Jed Spence off. He shouted at him a certain point, saying, yeah.
• 25:51
  And then in the next play, he'd done what Tuchel asked them to do. And it worked, the cheat, because the ball went through the middle. And I think that's the only thing we've really missed, is when a team is so compact and the space is so tight, you're not going to get to them through the wings. You've got to go through the centre of them. And I know that's so hard to do. It's in moments like that where you've got to play like a Phil Ford and who traps and kills the ball. Bellingham done a brilliant thing a couple of times last night. It's just that we didn't take the opportunity. I don't remember one clear good chance we had last night.
• 26:20
  Just the Kane one at the end, and that came from the cross. And that's a deflection off that kid's head. What are you saying about coming from the outside? When you're playing against a low block like that, you've got to threaten it all. You've got to keep your width, which then allows you more spaces in the middle, but then you've got to threaten through the middle, so they leave you one-on-one in the wide areas. And...
• 26:39
  We were getting frustrated trying to come through the mill. They defended it brilliantly. In my opinion, we just had to get more crosses in the box because we've got Kane, we've got Bellingham, we've got other people arriving. We had the opportunity to put subs on. So Madweke in the first half went on the outside once, got a good cross in.
• 26:56
  never tried it again, kept coming back in. After that, I was thinking, you've just had the best moment of the game going outside. He went on to the left side of the attack in the second half so he could get on the outside and use his left foot. Went on to the outside once, put a great ball in, Saka got over the top of it, Kane was behind him, maybe he would have talked, it could have been different. But,
• 27:15
  But you go, brilliant, keep doing that. That was the last time he did it. He kept getting the ball after that and coming back inside. When you've been playing and like, let's just say Everton have drawn Wigan or Port Vale away in the cup, like the third or fourth round of the cup, and you know these just want to draw, do you want to come back to Goodison Park, do you want to ding-o?
• 27:36
  and you like FA Cup winners Wigan will be finding that one a bit tough no do you know what I was going to say that was a harsh comparison I'm just saying poor Vale he beats his free meal I did get your point I just you know you go away to poor Vale and you know they're playing they're not playing for they're just playing purely and solely for the draw they want to come back to our place
• 27:55
  If Robbie Williams wants to come on and defend Port Vale, his team, then that's fine. I'll switch that. You mate, Rob, he's all right. How do you, like, you know, because I'm thinking about... Look, you just have to go and try and... You played with one up front. You used to have one, lad. But then you have to make sure that you're breaking forward. That was the other thing, you're right. We had so many players behind the ball that weren't prepared to sort of...
• 28:21
  So if you're playing... Was Anderson a passenger last night? Defensively, I thought Anderson was good on the counter-attack. Was he offering nothing going forward? I didn't think he offered himself on the ball as much. When you're trying to break these teams down, do you want a Jorginho? You know, that type of defensive midfielder that is just about linking passes, getting on the move. I thought Anderson was hard...
• 28:44
  Not Hyde, and that's too strong a word. He was not available enough to link the play and get us forward, but he was good defensively and important. I just think that when you were playing against a Croatia or a France and you're thinking, right, we need to go break them down, and you're trying to run forward...
• 29:06
  You're actually running forward thinking, I can't be too much out of position because I can't get exposed. I can't get hurt. They can't get through my space. So you run forward, but no, you can kind of get back.
• 29:16
  And that's what we saw in the first half of the Croatia game. And then he freed us up for the start of the second half and everyone was just running all over the place and other people covering. So I expected to go into this game and have people run all over the place, but no one left their position. No one really ended up somewhere that you weren't expecting them to be. It was rigid. We were so rigid. And even then, like, people weren't running in behind Kane. Kane didn't really...
• 29:37
  Drop deep and get the ball more than usual. People didn't go and do anything that wasn't unexpected in the game. If you can see that, surely they can. So is that up to Kane or Tuchel to bollock someone and go, listen here, lads, do this or do that? A little bit of both. That has to be a little bit of gambling. That has to be a bit of, well, I'm just going to run over this. I'm going to run over there and I know I'm going out of position, but I might just say to you beforehand, to the guys behind me, or it might be if I'm Rice, I'm saying to Anderson, right,
• 30:06
  for five minutes now I'm going to be all over the place so you just sit and make sure that someone's in the middle but it didn't seem like we ever did that and the pattern was set
• 30:16
  Right from the kickoff. And there was the reason why I was frustrated with the two centre-halves. Because I'm screaming at the telly, two and a half, three and a half minutes in. And we just kept, we got up to the halfway line. They offered absolutely nothing, Garner. They went right back, right from the kickoff. Ivan Jordan, no. Five, ten yards outside the edge of the penalty area. Fine. But we just kept playing. I mean, by half-time, our centre-halves had 68 and 73 passes. Garner's team had 77.
• 30:46
  Now, our two centre-halves, of those 68 and 73, I reckon 50 of them were to each other. Sideways. They just kept passing it to each other. Sideways. Get the ball. Every one of our players, midfield and defenders,
• 31:01
  had eight or nine touches when they needed to have two. It should have been bang, pass, bang, pass. And it was stop and stop and move. And the reason I was screaming at the telly was Rhys James especially, Chet Spence less so because he's the left foot on the right. But Rhys James, Madweke had one when he came and said, this is all within the first two minutes.
• 31:23
  And the two centre-halves definitely had forward passes. Someone made a run and there was a space and you go, go on, there's the pass, play it forward, be positive. And they went, oh, we'll keep the ball, the old, we'll play our way into the game mentality. Whereas that then became walking football. We were playing walking football. We weren't actually being positive. We weren't playing forward. And you can in those games because they're defending so deep.
• 31:46
  you can risk the ball more than normal. Yes, your stats won't be 95% pass completion or that. They might be 60, but you might have nearly played someone in four times. You might have nearly got us the cross that created something. That's how you picked the lock. Whereas, because you then try and create in their moments, if they do win the ball back, you just smother them. Old Barcelona style, how we did in other games.
• 32:08
  You win the ball back quickly. And even if they play out of that, they've still got 80 yards to go before they get anywhere near your goal. So risk the ball. Whereas we didn't risk the ball. We went backwards and sideways. And it was a pattern that if I had any hair, I would have pulled it out in that game. So when we come up against it, and when's our next game now? Is it the weekend?
• 32:28
  What day are we now? It's Saturday night. It is, yeah, Saturday night. 10 o'clock? 10 o'clock. So Saturday night. Do you want to go to the pub and watch it really late? Or nightclub or something? I don't know about nightclub. But okay.
• 32:43
  That is possible. I mean, I am going to, I can't say what me plan is, but I'll tell you at the end of this. But yeah, I have somewhere to be on Sunday. So we will... I've thrown him there. I've thrown him there. He's a bit lost. Stupid boy. We come up against that on Saturday night. Yeah.
• 33:03
  Would you expect them to, like within the first 20 minutes? I think John Stones starts that game because I think John finds a pass. is used to playing in those moments. And if you play on the left, no, I think he steps into midfield. I think, because one of the best things John Stones does
• 33:19
  and he's done it in Champions League finals when he was asked to play centre midfield. He does it in normal games. He commits people. It's a crazy thing as a centre half, but he commits defenders. Like you want your midfielders and your number 10s and your wingers. Go and commit a defender. Instead of just passing in front of them, run up to him with the ball. So now he's got a decision to make. Now he has to come to you or he has to make a decision. And then you pass it and then there's a space. Whereas we never made them move.
• 33:47
  because Arsenal just went side to side. They made two decent forward passes, one into Declan Rice where Kane nearly had the shot and a diagonal to Bellingham. Good passes. Other than that, they never, as a pair, they never committed. If John Stones runs into midfield and says, I'm just going to keep running until one of you comes after you slot. If Stones he starts. And then there's a knock-on effect.
• 34:09
  if Stonesy starts last night, he's probably getting an assist. Because he finds that ball straight through the middle because you're spot on. He draws a midfielder to a centre-half. And the minute the midfielder comes to the centre-half, you've got a 2v1 somewhere else on the pitch. And I just think it's so important that...
• 34:26
  you have someone who's willing to take a risk. Don't get me wrong. High risk comes with, you know what I mean? It's very dangerous, but he is the one to find it. And like Ozzy says, with someone like Stonesy, if he loses the ball there, someone's got 80 yards to make up. And if you've got a Jed Spence or a Rhys James, chances are they're going to catch you. You know what I mean? You're not going to leave, you're not going to leave any of them. And you also balance yourself off, right? You know, we've talked before about, about do you need two defensive midfielders? Well,
• 34:56
  that depends on what you're asking of your fullbacks. So if you're saying to your fullbacks, so say we'd have said, right, Kane's going to come deep, Gordon and Madweke. He didn't come deep last night. Not really. Gordon and Madweke are not going to give us the width. They're going to run inside every time. So Kane can come deep. So it should have been...
• 35:13
  or in moments, you don't have to do this whole game, but going to Madweke, running in between their fullbacks and their centre-halves so that they have to run deep, and then we're asking our fullbacks to go and play high and wide. Now they've got a decision to make. Do we follow the run? Do we stay on the fullbacks who are now playing like wingers? In that moment, you need two centre-halves who are holding midfielders because you've got two centre-halves and you've got two holding midfielders.
• 35:38
  If you're always keeping one of your fullbacks deep, which it seemed we kind of were last night, then you only need one set in the midfield. You can't have as many players behind the ball as we did at times. It was...
• 35:50
  I was expecting more from us. These games happen. We didn't lose it. Is it good that it's happened now at this stage of the tournament? You know, you've seen Spain had a difficult first game, Portugal had a difficult first game, and I know this is our second game, but these negatives coming to fruition now give us something to go, right, we can stop that from happening now that we've seen it. Yeah, if you problem solve from it. I think the...
• 36:15
  the frustration we've had in previous tournaments, and I was complimentary to Gareth Southgate before, as I should be. But I think we had these moments in previous tournaments, progressed. It wasn't always easy on the eye watching us in tournaments, but we progressed and we had nothing to complain about because of that. There were a lot of England fans or pundits in general saying, but it's just not good enough when we come up against better players or when we come up against something else, we might not have the answers. But,
• 36:43
  And that was true because although we had progressed, we didn't seem to learn, we didn't get braver, we didn't find a way of winning those tight games when it came down to it. Thomas Tuchel's different. This is the first tournament we've got. Is he going to problem solve? I hope so. That's what he's been brought in for. Because he learns a lot in the first game, especially for his team talk at halftime and how he reacted. If he's learned a lot from this...
• 37:10
  then it will stand us in good stead moving forward because he'll know how players have reacted to moments, how they've done in certain criticism he may have labelled them, what he's asked them to do, if they're capable of what you need to do in their moments because, what is it, four or five days generally between each game, the analysis teams will be going crazy on watching it back and showing where things could have happened and Tuchel and his team will be watching it. So...
• 37:40
  Hopefully, yeah. I just think it's so important that it has happened. I actually wanted it to happen to them so they can see what happens when teams don't want to play football against you. But I think the most important thing is we've seen what happens when teams do want to play football with us.
• 37:57
  And that's what's going to happen. When you get to the last 16, everyone wants to play football. Nobody wants to just sit there. Don't get me wrong, you're going to get some teams like maybe a Morocco. That would be a big problem. They're a good side who know how to defend that and can hit you fast on the break. But ultimately, when we get to the last 16, everyone wants to play. No one's going to want to really sit deep.
• 38:19
  I'm happy it's happened now because the next time we come up against it, we're prepared for it and we're going to understand it now. Hopefully we'll learn our lesson, but make no mistake.
• 38:30
  England aren't going out to the World Cup because of someone with a low block. You're going out to someone who's going to be a better team. And you know what? Being brutally and totally honest, I think we're going to have to do that if we're going to win the World Cup. Because we're going to have to go up against France or we're going to have to go up against another couple of teams in the World Cup, maybe Portugal, and we're going to have to sit deep at times and we're going to have to go, you know what? We're shutting you down. So we shouldn't be too critical because I'm telling you now, we can't go toe-to-toe with France.
• 38:59
  I don't care what anybody says, we can't go player for player with them. Sorry, that's the wrong word. We can go player for player, but we can't go attack for attack with them. We just can't. That front four for them, mate, is the most frightening front four I've seen since probably...
• 39:15
  Brazil in 0-2. I haven't seen a front fall like that in 20 years. Them four mates are just something else. Five, six. That's the scary thing about France. We might have to sit deep. We might have to just block someone off and go, you know what? This is not going to be pleasant. This is not going to be pleasing on the eye. And not everyone's going to like it. But do we care? I just want to go through. I just want to progress. I don't care if we win 1-0 and it goes in off someone's arse. I just want to win.
• 39:45
  We could have still won that game last night. I mean, O'Reilly comes on and hits the bar, and that was unlucky. Kane is expected to score that. Banking on him. The form he's in, 50-odd goals, is it, this season? Or 60-odd goals, I don't know what he's on, but he's flying. It's just, it's one of them, and he snaps at it. Look, for someone like him, you go, that looks like an easy chance, but it's not ours, is it? It's on the volley, and...
• 40:11
  It's coming to him quick. It came quick. And I think, again, part of the interview I watched after, I think he only had three. I might be getting that wrong. But three touches in there, and it's gone. It was three, and only 19 in total for the whole game. And even the best would like to have a little bit. Oz, has he been told enough to stop coming deep?
• 40:30
  No, I would doubt that. Why didn't he come? Because he came so deep in the Croatia game, and I'm talking he was on the edge of his own box at times. Yeah, that surprised me. I know we say when there's a low block that you need to keep people up, but I probably expected him to come into where the two centre-halves were, and they weren't making forward passes. And Rice and Anderson weren't making enough forward passes. I expected Kane to come back and start making them. He came and made a couple of diagonals, but...
• 41:00
  When you're playing... Here's another one. When you're playing in those games, and I'm saying as they didn't play in the pocket more, and Bellingham and Rice, who were in the semi-number 10 positions, I think O'Reilly should have been in there, but another... I've talked about that already. When they're in those positions...
• 41:17
  they can only be as good as the ball they're getting in. And I didn't think, I didn't think we were brave enough in playing that ball. The best at them are Adam Wharton. Kobe Mayne, who's good at them passes actually as well. And he's in, he's in the squad of, of,
• 41:30
  These number 10s, we'll criticise them for not getting the ball, but they'll only stay in the position if they feel like someone's capable of giving them the ball. Otherwise, you'll go searching for it. It's natural. I've done it myself a thousand times. You need to have somebody that you can trust, that can thread a pass through the eye of a needle, through the lines of defence, get it in you, and then you're asking Bellingham, Kane, whoever it might be in that position,
• 41:54
  first touch on the back foot, get turned, and now you're actually at the back four, with runners, hopefully, either side. We didn't penetrate in their moments. We didn't find their passes. Maybe Kane had come deep. He could have threaded them through, but even then you're saying, well, now we need Kane back up front. I felt like Bellingham was the only one who was willing to actually run at them.
• 42:12
  and I get the ball out of his feet and just go, I'm going to take you on, I'm going to do you, I'm going to beat you. When Saka came on, he looked like he could do it as well. I mean, for the life of me, I can't understand why Saka's not starting. Someone obviously knows more. They reckon he's been nursing an injury, and they said by the third game, by the Panama game, he'll be fit to start. Let's just leave super fit players. He hasn't been training as much during the games either. I think you'd take Saka top player in me.
• 42:38
  because when you say he's not fit enough get him on the pitch mate yeah but he'll be fit enough for the third game having played a part in both the first two and now as you're saying we're going to progress now he's there now he's there now he's there half time you still make the change never wait till 60 minutes go and get a goal and then you know what we can sit
• 42:56
  Because once we get a goal against them, if we scored against them last night, I said to the kids, our cards were sitting with me, and I said, if we get a goal, mate, we'll get three or four past these. We just need one goal because these will have to open up. And once anyone opens up against us who are lesser than us, player for player, we will really turn over. But I get why these teams are going to go at us like this. They're going to sit and sit and sit because a point is the best they're going to get. The minute they play and open up, we have so much quality.
• 43:23
  that it's unbelievable. And it was not a bad thing for Ghana to do because that's them through. Because you'd expect four points. Of course. They beat Panama, a draw out of the next two games and they're through in some capacity and they've drawn. They've celebrated, they've celebrated like they've won it. And listen, fair play to them. I'm happy for them because they're...
• 43:43
  They're going to be a problem. They go, if France saw someone draw them, they had a proper issue, maybe because they'll end up at penalties with someone and then penalties are, what's your thoughts on that? I think France would be, I think, yeah, but penalties, because there's a toss of a coin, isn't it? Just a 50-50? I think France would be better, and I think France penetrate better. Yeah. I really do. I think their runs, I think,
• 44:06
  Yeah, well, they could drop Argentina. Spain and Portugal have shown that they struggle against those kind of moments. Argentina will struggle. Because a team like that that we've just played last night, they will just put one man on Messi and just say, do not leave him alone. Yeah, what part they did. But it's still Messi. What was the possession? Was it 72 or 78? I think it was 78% possession we had last night. I'm not sure which one of them it is, but yeah. It was 70 plus. Which is England's highest possession.
• 44:34
  I think England's highest since 1966 in any game. And I also read this morning, because I do like to read my stats in there, that it's the most possession a team has ever had in the game without winning. Do you wait to make... That's not a good stat for us to have that one. Do you wait to make... Do you make the change at half-time or do you wait to make the change when he makes it? Because you can clearly see we're not figuring them out. We're not finding a way through...
• 45:01
  like for me I think the first half tells you everything you need to know we aren't breaking these down why are you waiting for 60 minutes I would have brought O'Reilly on at half time um did you take Anderson off and then go 4-3-3 no I'd have took Rhys James off me put Jed Spence over on the right
• 45:19
  use his pace, get down the outside. And I'd have O'Reilly on the left. And that way, Spence stays as one of the three. He can get down the right pre-stay and is one of your three defenders. And O'Reilly can go Roman. And then after about 55, 60 minutes, then I'd have swapped both. I'd probably made a triple substitution and brought on Rodgers and changed both the wide men at the same time. Would you have started the lineup that started? Yeah.
• 45:44
  I wouldn't. Who would you have played? I'd told you I'd have played O'Reilly. Yeah, but I mean, are you starting Gordon? Are you starting Madwey, Kate? I had no problem with starting them. Yeah, but who would you have picked? I think he could have been braver and gone, maybe drop one of them for Rashford. I...
• 46:04
  understand, because Rashford scored in the last game, came on, done well, played for Barcelona this season, had a good season. Yeah, but who are you picking? But I probably would have started with that team then. Would you? In terms of, in terms of the front. Midfield forwards. Just O'Reilly, you would have kept O'Reilly in. Yeah, because he adds another body as a number 10, he goes in and plays and gives you that, that extra player who can play on the half, which is the key. Makes so much more sense to me after you've said what you've said. After,
• 46:30
  half an hour I might have swapped the wide men over and said our best chance here is getting on the outside so Madweke you go play on the left Gordon especially as Gordon was getting no change out of that go and play on the right and do us a favour get the ball out to you because you naturally when you go and play on your natural side of the pitch because of the way you take the ball on your outside leg closest to the byline you naturally make the pitch bigger so because you're now taking that on your right foot
• 47:00
  you've got a natural crossing angle around the defender. So the left back, I'm being Anthony Gordon, has to come and respect that and give you another probably four or five yards further than he would have run, which now means the centre-back has to come over a few more yards, which now means everybody... So just by putting people on the natural side of the pitch, shifts tactically the game. If you come over to Madweke and his first touch is to control it inside onto his left foot as a full-back and a wide receiver...
• 47:28
  makes a bit smaller, I don't need to run that much. That creates spaces everywhere. And if from there, if Gordon can get to the byline or Madweke, cross it, great. If not, it's a natural run now for Bellingham or Rice to make that underlap and run, because that was the key, which I wrote in me before I come. You think about who are the good teams at breaking down low blocks. In my opinion, Man City have always been outstanding. You think about what they did. You go back to Arme Jack, who played on the left.
• 47:56
  So you can play people on the opposite side of the pitch, but from that moment, you think about how many times Bernardo Silva made that run, 10 to the byline, or Kevin De Bruyne made that run in behind the fullback to the byline because you just switch play, make that run, switch play, make that run, and you're constantly making the opposition's defence drop and deeper into their own penalty area. And at the very worst, then you're getting shots from edge of the penalty area.
• 48:23
  Whereas we kept switching it and then just coming back. We never actually think about how many times did their centre-halves run into their own box? Maybe once, Rhys James, after about seven minutes. Last season, Everton benefited so much from that. When Jack Riddish got all of the ball, he drew players in. And I literally watched the ball when I was sitting in his seat.
• 48:42
  He's telling Michael where to go. He's telling Keenan Duesbio where to go. And when he tells them where to go, he's telling people on the pitch, he just held the ball, he protects it. No one can get the ball off Jack Grealish when he doesn't want to lose it. And he's telling these players to run. Someone follows Michael, someone follows Keenan, and then he lays it to Jimmy Garner. Jimmy Garner belts a shot into the bottom corner.
• 49:02
  And it happened numerous times last season. That was the backup. But the actual one that hurt, you've just touched on, was Grealish getting the ball. And Jusby Hall making that run in behind. He scored a goal against Wolves. He got into great pockets. That run is how you beat low blocks. And we never did it. I can't hardly remember us ever doing it, especially...
• 49:25
  getting Bellingham and Rice in there. Maybe we should have started, in hindsight, if you're keeping your back four, or made the switch early and put Rodgers and Bellingham in. Come on, we've whinged them off now, Barry. Let's talk about it. Yeah, true. We spoke about Kane. He missed his opportunity, but it has been a tournament for the firepower up front. Ronaldo, Mbappe, Messi, they've all been scoring goals.
• 49:47
  Let's talk about Ronaldo first. He, first game, he's got loads of doubters, people saying, is he finished? And then he goes and pops up with two goals like that. What did you think about Ronaldo's performance? I think he was... There's not anything he could have really done in that first game. You know, I don't think... They're looking for him all the time. You can see he wants to do what he's doing, but he's still chasing, he's running everywhere. Listen, the debate with Messi and Ronaldo is always going to go on forever. It's quite simple. I think Cristiano Ronaldo...
• 50:16
  is the greatest athlete the game's ever seen. I think he's the hardest working player football's ever seen. I don't think he's the greatest player because, and I do think Lionel Messi is, he's the greatest ever footballer I've seen because it's certain things that he can do. He changes the game. He does all these different things. But no one can deny that Cristiano Ronaldo is, like I said, the greatest athlete I've ever seen. He's actually huge as well. He's 6'3". I'm so impressed when I met him of how big he is and to be able to do what he can do as a physical specimen.
• 50:45
  I think they're just two outstanding players and they shouldn't... They're always going to be compared, which I'm not really a big fan of comparing them. I think the greatest forward there was R9. I think, in my opinion, he's just the best. But I get the comparisons all over the part. I just think no one can ever compare to Cristiano Ronaldo as an athlete and as... They've made each other better, them two. Enhanced each other. I mean...
• 51:10
  you can't talk about one for more than a couple of days without the other one. Doing something. Doing something to make you talk about them, which, you know, probably yesterday or the day before, before Ronaldo had played his second game, everyone, you know, the narrative was that he's finished, you know, and not score, and he's...
• 51:26
  he's not very good and he shouldn't play. It's nonsense. He's a top player. He's always going to score. Messi becomes the oldest player to score a hat-trick in the tournament, I think it was, and he's now scored the most goals in the tournament. And now Ronaldo has now become the first player to score at six World Cups. I was doing the maths yesterday. I was like, that's a crazy amount of time. And now going, wow. They'll constantly...
• 51:54
  we honour each other. I agree with Tony in terms of Messi's just natural. Just this incredible ability. He works hard. Incredible ability that no one else, very rare people, maybe it's an Argentinian thing, maybe him and Maradona, maybe George Best. People throw George Best in terms of that kind of skill that I've seen. Yeah, so that is natural, but the argument is, I heard someone say that if you don't think it's Messi as the best,
• 52:24
  then you're ludicrous. And I just think that Ronaldo's challenged himself everywhere. He's been to all these leagues. He's been to different things. He's tried new things. He's played in all the different leagues. I think you've got to take your hat off to him for that. And Messi goes and gets his fifth goal in the tournament. So Ronaldo says, right, it's time to turn it on. I think this time we've got an incredible sort of look at...
• 52:54
  the golden boot I think any of them can win it I mean how far can Haaland get with Norway if they keep playing he's going to score goals Mbappe they're getting all the way so he's got a great chance Mbappe's taking it mate Mbappe's taking it because they're going to be here till the end you'd have to be France to win it in my opinion
• 53:13
  Yeah. So Mbappé's here till the end. Mbappé, I think Mbappé could possibly end up on double figures in this World Cup. Could Mbappé take over Messi's World Cup record within the same World Cup? Yeah. Definitely could. Messi's on 18 goals and Mbappé's on 16. Mbappé's on 16 goals in 16 games. He could. Yeah, as I say, Messi's played, when you talk about the best, Messi's played like 28 games. That's right, yeah.
• 53:38
  28, 29 games? Yes, 28, yeah. To get his 18 goals. I don't like that Mbappé's... Mbappé's played 16 to get 16. That's like what Gerd Muller was... played 13 games for 14 goals. Wow. And he was the, you know, top German star. I don't like the fact that Mbappé's... talked about in the same breath as them. Not yet, anyway. I just think he's one of the most selfish people. Now, did you read his interview? No. This week... I don't know. I think, was it in French or was it in English?
• 54:08
  I can't remember, but anyway, I watched the interview and they said, you know, you're competing for the Golden Boots. It's you and Messi, Ronaldo, Haaland. He said, where'd you put yourself in that conversation? He went, out of those three, I'm not, I'm Messi. Messi's all by himself. Messi's the best. Oh, well, I'm made up. Messi's the best. I can't compete. He said, maybe if I do it for another...
• 54:31
  for a lot more longer time. I don't care, Matthew. Maybe. Maybe I can have a conversation. But he went, but you're talking to those players? I'm not Messi. Messi's Messi. I'd say I'm happy he said that because I never knew he'd said that. I thought, you see when this is what the media do, don't they? They...
• 54:47
  It's what they do. It's what they do. It's what they do. It's what they do. They create an image. They do. They create an image. Because all I've ever seen is Luis Enrique pleading with that fella to chase back and do this. And then the narrative that they paint, and it is the media because that's why we get our information. It's just the top and bottom of it. And I just feel, that's brightening me thinking of him now. Fair play. So he is an all right fella.
• 55:13
  I just thought he was going to be an England fan. Like I said, the media... Like Zlatan saying, I'm the best. Yeah, but I've met him and I know what he is, what he is, mate. He's big and he's like, he's the man, but I get it. Once again, that's the image you put to it. I met him up close when he scored a hat-trick for Sweden on my England debut. Oh, really? Yeah, he scored that overhead quick. But you admire people like him. He just stands up, puts his back out, puts all his chest, doesn't go to the snam, the man round here. I love that.
• 55:42
  because you quite clearly know you're not, but you'll tell people you are. I can love all that, you know, fake it until you make it, brilliant. But for someone like Mbappe, he's been talked about and put with these names. I mean, the power he had when he was at PSG was just ludicrous. I mean, he's deciding who the manager is at certain times he was told. So I just... He's been better with Arden, haven't he? Yeah, they haven't. They've won now two. You ought to have been good. They have. He's gone up with my estimation. They have, but France haven't. And talking numbers...
• 56:11
  I mean, Mbappe could. He's only 27, I think. He's a baby. Right? And he's only two goals off Messi, who's just turned 39. Probably today, actually. So happy birthday, Lionel. Who's Lionel? Lionel. That's how we say it. Lionel. That's how we say it. He's not Richie. So...
• 56:36
  Imagine where Mbappe can get goals-wise. Yeah. And we're talking about the record. England's record is Lineker and jointly Harry Kane on 10 at the minute. Germany is closer on 17, was it? I think closer to 16. 16, 17. Closer second, then he. Messi's just gone outright on his own. And then you're looking at... Oh, no, 17, sorry. And then you're looking at...
• 56:59
  where Mbappe is now at 27, injury-free for the next two World Cups. Yeah, but once again you say this, he's gone in so young and he's the pivotal figure for... Messi went in young. Messi was in the 2000... Messi scored 12 World Cup goals over the age of 35. Yeah, that's... It just shows you where football's at. Messi didn't have a great time with Argentina in his early years, did he? I would also say...
• 57:30
  I mean, and probably some of the older players, like Miroslav Klos is looking and saying, it's not fair because now there's 48 teams in the tournament. There's extra games. There's a lot more teams that are easier to score against. Of course. I say that tongue-in-cheek after having seen Cape Verde and... No, no, but you will be right. Ghana, stop. You've got lesser countries in. There's no debating of it. There's no getting away from it. It's just like, let's be all brutally honest, the Champions League is not what it used to be.
• 57:59
  The European Cup is no longer as hard to win. They played it years ago as a straight knockout tournament. Every round was, you lose, you're out. That is so much harder to win when you play like that because one off, they're you're out, see you later, go home. You've got teams who are losing games now and winning it. I mean, PSG lost how many games this season in the Champions League? They're the winners. How are you the best if you've lost?
• 58:22
  A cup tournament should just be a straight shootout. You lose, you're out. I believe that's how all cups should be. But what they've done is they've monetised it and they've created a tournament now where everyone plays a load of games and half of them are meaningless. And they're doing it with the World Cup as well.
• 58:39
  They want to make sure that the big teams are there at the end. Of course. Because look at what they did going into this World Cup. Ronaldo should have been suspended for the first two games. But it would have been ludicrous had the people paying to go watch the World Cup and being there and the American public because it's in their country having to miss out on seeing him when he's the big draw. I was saying Messi was maybe not been there for the first game. Yeah.
• 59:05
  You want to see the big players play. It's disgusting. You want to see the top teams there at the end. You can't just break the rules for certain people. It's wrong. It's disgusting. I'm not arguing against it. It's absolutely disgusting. It's like the power rate break again. Just after a few quid, it's just about money. I'm not arguing against it. It's just... You've broken a rule or two in your time. No.
• 59:26
  So they say, but there's no evidence of that clear evidence. I'm not guilty, mate. Don't put me on that pedestal. I'm not guilty. I'm an innocent man. But I just feel it's been monetised all across football. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen. You don't really get the chance in my sport. But in football, it's such a big business now. And I just feel you're losing what football's about. The European Cup really needs to be looked at.
• 59:52
  and I think the World Cup needs to be looked at. You don't need this many teams at the World Cup. You're seeing teams come and just get here for the sake of getting here. I agreed with that originally, but I don't anymore. There's a lot of people who have changed their mind on that in terms of... Actually, it's been quite a good spectacle. There are some games that...
• 1:00:11
  you have to be a Harden fan for us to be watching it. Four o'clock in the morning, like Jordan versus Algeria. No disrespect to either of those two games. No one's getting up to watch that, mate. Two countries, but they're not standout games for us to watch over here as a mass. Just not good games to watch. That's what I'm saying. Oh, that was 2-1. Oh, that's brilliant. I worked at Soldier Tonight at Iran, New Zealand last week. I want to see 7-6. That was actually a really good game.
• 1:00:36
  Oh, come on. What I'm saying is they can be good games, but... I've enjoyed the stories that have popped up from nations that you wouldn't expect. And I love the Cape Verde one, yeah. The keeper's brilliant. I love him. He was great. But come on, let's all be honest. He was okay. He did his job. Yeah, there we go. Sorry, Roy Keane. So do you think we're being over the top then now in this, where we're talking about these great strikers scoring, everyone's like, Haaland's hit, is it running? Ronaldo, Messi. Is it because of all the lower teams in there? Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  because usually maybe a top goal scorer at the World Cup would maybe score five goals exactly where people are hitting that in the groups yeah because double figures yeah well look Messi scored what three against five and five Algeria and two against who did they just play five goals in two games us come on Austria
• 1:01:29
  I'm sure someone's won the Golden Boot with five goals. He scored two. He scored five goals in two games. Come on. I'm saying he's not come up against the team. But then look at England, Harry Kane, the striker. He scored his two goals in what you call the tougher game. Yeah. Because the low block sort of...
• 1:01:44
  he didn't find comfortable or the team didn't get him the chances as well. So it's all about the team getting a chance. I will say Mbappe, Senegal's not an easy one. Then he scores another two, should have had three in the next game. They've got Norway next.
• 1:02:03
  Mbappe versus Haaland. Be a great game. So we'll see how they do in the tougher match-ups. You still expect Mbappe to be able to perform it. I want to see Haaland and Oldergaard, people creating them chances up against France. Can they create chances against France? Can they...
• 1:02:22
  Can they be as good and easy on the eye as they have been? Because they're on a crazy streak of not losing games in Norway. I'm sure they're like 12 or 13 games unbeaten. Who's the centre-halves? Is it Opa-McCannan or Saliba? Who's the centre-halves for France? Yeah, the centre-halves. Good defenders then. He's going to have his hands full.
• 1:02:43
  going to struggle against them too I think so I think it would be really good for us to watch that game because he's a real test for that France team I think this is a bit of a controversial one I think he could possibly finish football as the greatest goal scorer the world's ever seen he's just a goal machine that boy Harland Harland
• 1:03:04
  How are you judging that though? Because I'd be very surprised if he becomes the greatest World Cup goalscorer. No, not that. I just think he made as a predator. So how do you judge that? Is he going to be the best Champions League? He's got to play in the Champions League all the time. He might actually do that one. But which Premier League goalscorer...
• 1:03:22
  Does he go and play for Real Madrid like Ronaldo did at some point and then rip that to shreds? He goes to Madrid and he just doesn't stop scoring goals. I just think he's a predator. He stays in and around the box. He's so big, he's so powerful, he's so quick. He's direct and I just...
• 1:03:39
  he's part, he's one of a dying breed. Now, I don't see a proper number nine because the way football is now, they all want to be a 10. This fella just stays in the box and puts it in the net. I think he might bring it back. Yeah. You know, like, an old fashioned nine.
• 1:03:56
  Yeah, but you go back to what you wanted to be when you grew up. You wanted to be... Big dunk. I thought you wanted to be a keeper. Did you not want to be... No, stop. I never wanted to be a keeper. No one wants to be a keeper. Will you stop tarnishing that brush on me? I'm not a keeper. Did you want to be Gary Stevens? No, mate. I wanted to be Duncan Ferguson. I wanted to be Duncan Ferguson. I wanted to give someone a headbutt. I wanted to smack someone. I've done all that. And I got paid for it as well. It was brilliant. Everyone wants to be a centre forward. And then if you can't be a centre forward and you...
• 1:04:24
  them kind of physical strengths. You go centre-half. I want to be Duncan. I know you do. Duncan's my hero. But that was back in our time. If you wanted to be a centre-forward and if you weren't, you were probably a centre-half and if you could do other things, you'd do the other things. Whereas kids grew up watching, you know, the wingers. The football changed, the exciting players were going to the wingers. So kids were growing up in the streets and wanting to be a coming off the left, like Henri kind of learnt to do and coming off the right, like maybe a Salah kind of does, coming off rather than your big centre-forward. So they were...
• 1:04:53
  We were losing them within the game, but Haaland might bring it back. And Baffet playing right through the middle, although he's not a big brute centre forward, might bring it back, playing a centre forward. Imagine how many goals Alan Shearer would have scored in today's football. People were volleying and kicking Alan Shearer and roughing him up. And he was a lone centre forward. He was an animal. I remember him and Chris Sutton when they were two forwards. The test is? The SAS. The test is... No, I agree. But the test is...
• 1:05:21
  can you do it over the whole of your career? Like for instance, there are some top strikers, Michael Owen burst onto the scene, was outstanding until he was about 25 and then found it a little bit more difficult as the game adapted and maybe- A few injuries. A few injuries and all that. Whereas the likes of Shearer grow up as a, you know, a guy that wants to do physical stuff, but will run over the top as much as anything. And then by the end of the career, he turns himself into a nine holding the ball up and still,
• 1:05:51
  throughout his career, finds a way of always getting goals, despite the game changing, despite his physicality changing, and despite, you know, the game changing around him.
• 1:06:01
  I think the best strikers, you look back over the course of their whole career. I mean, having said that, now we'll talk back to Ronaldo and Messi and say Messi's not had to change. Ronaldo did. He was a winger and then he went a striker and he was a striker that ran the channels and now he's a number nine that stays in the middle. Fair play to Cristiano Ronaldo in terms of doing that in the way Shearer adjusted his career. Messi's just... That's why I reason... Messi doesn't have to change. But...
• 1:06:28
  I was also thinking this. Argentina are playing to get Messi. So Messi just walks around. They work their socks off, even the centre forwards, to get Messi chances in the right areas. If you've got a player of that ability, if you've got a player of that ability, you do. His third goal last week when he played it out wide and they just kept looking back for him, highlighted it.
• 1:06:46
  I don't think Portugal give Ronaldo that same sort of... The trying, but he's not available. So Ronaldo's closing centre-forward, he's trying to do bits, but he stays in the middle. So Ronaldo's now become part of the team. The best thing which actually opened my eyes and thought...
• 1:07:01
  Maybe they have got a chance. Portugal was... I know he'd scored already in the game, which made a difference. But when everyone thought Ronaldo just takes these free kicks and he just pretended like he was going to team play, Mendy goes up, no one's expecting it, boom. And he celebrated it like he'd done it himself. So, fair play, maybe that... He got an assist from a dummy. I don't know if he does. He'll probably claim one. Oh, he does, mate. He used his names on the sheets. But maybe that gives Portugal...
• 1:07:29
  an opportunity and they're definitely more of a team
• 1:07:33
  and they try and get their other players in than Argentina do, who Messi's the focal point. I just, like I said, I just think the old-fashioned tender forward is being taken away from football, and I think that's a crime. Like I said, I mean, if you've had certain players now, like Shearer with Baguafel, I don't even want to think what Arnana do, because he's the greatest forward I've ever seen in my life. You're never going to see something like him again. Well, he's called a phenom. That's what he was. You never will see that. Even Messi can't do what he could do.
• 1:08:02
  Talking at R9, I want to end on a quiz. I haven't done it in a while. A quiz, Leon versus Tony. Yes. Getting embarrassed again, I think. I think you won the last time. Oh, don't start me off.
• 1:08:13
  What is it? So this time I'm going to give you a player who's played in the World Cup and you're going to tell me how many goals that they've scored on the theme of top goal scorers in the World Cup. Let's start with your favourite player, R9. How many goals do I think he's got in the World Cup? In the World Cup. Overall? Overall. Through all the World Cups, I would probably say...
• 1:08:42
  Is it we paused? I'm trying to think. 14? It's 15. Close. Would you have got that? No. So I'm 1-0. So I'm 1-0. People wouldn't have got that. 14? That's unlucky, that.
• 1:08:59
  All right, let's go with you, Aussie. Right, don't do what you did last time. Which was, how did R9 do? And then how did some Kazakhstan players? Who scored Bosnese goal in 19? He's not giving me all that. No, this is quite a nice one. Thomas Muller. Oh. He must have got a few. Yeah, he did. I'm going to go 13. 13.
• 1:09:29
  10
• 1:09:55
  I've already mentioned it about an hour ago, however long ago we were talking. I'm going to go... Just let's see how much you listen to me when I talk. He's got no chance then, has he? I'm going to go with 14. Oh, he was listening! He was listening! Well, what's already? I didn't even listen to it. How many games? Do you remember I said 13 games, 14 goals, there you go. I wasn't listening, but you've just told me anyway.
• 1:10:23
  There you go, 1-0. Thank you. Get in there. Ozzy, let's go with Klinsman. Come on! Yeah, Klinsman was a player, made that dive on the floor. Yeah, Klinsman. I reckon I get this. He played in 90. He played in... 9, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7...
• 1:10:46
  Eight. Nine. Eight. It's 11. It is 11. Is it 11? You don't get a point for that because it was his go, but it was 11. Oh, well done. I don't know why I knew that, but I just did. Because he stood there like that with his fingers up. Mate, he's got the iPad closest to you. Don't start me off. I should get a point for that.
• 1:11:05
  If you don't answer, if you don't, he can answer, if I get mine wrong, he gets a chance to answer it. That's my rules. Okay, was, was he getting a briefing about go back and have a look at who scored what he has? He's done that. There's no way he knows that. I just got it. There's no way he knows that without having researched it. Don't hate the play, hate the game.
• 1:11:27
  Let's put it to the second. Why are you getting done again? I'll give you both one more each. Oh, no, actually, give you two more each because you've got a chance to try and get back in it then. Pele. Oh. I'm going to say, oh, 13 goals for Pele. It's not. It was 12.
• 1:11:49
  I think he's trying to get them wrong now. I'm trying to think of how many World Cups he played then. He's trying to get it wrong now. Making it interesting. Yeah. Right, for you, Oz. Just because you're trying to get close and look like you know without... He's done his research. I swear to God, I haven't. The one that I had for you... No matter what happens, I've won because I've got Klinsman on him. Go on. The one you had for me, what?
• 1:12:09
  It's too... Well, do you know what? Just to make it interesting, because I know you're going to know it. Stop giving... No, stop! Stop giving them easy questions. It's the one that I had down for him, so I've got to be fair. Oh, God. Guy Lineker. Oh, God.
• 1:12:21
  10 I was going to say don't get it right yes absolutely obviously I'm part with Harry Kane at the moment so we'll take him off the list let's as a decider then I'll put it out and I'll give you both one opportunity to answer it so I'm going to go Just Fontaine from France who? Just Fontaine okay this is like 1958 was like around the time he was playing in the World Cup but he's right up there in the rankings so that's obviously what Claire Fontaine was named after
• 1:12:51
  I wouldn't know, but yeah, the France Train Centre. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They've produced some talent then. You want me to go first? I might give you a bonus point for that, Tony. That was good, though. There's a bonus point. I've told you I've won tonight. I don't actually know this. I haven't got a slight clue, but I'm going to go with 13. I'll go 12. 10. Wow. Is it 12? Or 10? 12. You're going 12. You're going 13. 13, yeah. Both sure? Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:13:20
  Tony's the winner out of Fancy. Get in! Get in! I've won again. I've beat the football out of football questions. There's all sorts of stitch-up going on here. I wish the bloody was. There's all sorts of stitch-up going on here. I'm just not having it. I'm not having it. Fantastic. I even got your question right with Klinsman, so I'll show you the one in any way. Yeah, because you've obviously been doing your read-offs the most. I swear on them little fuckers in the house, I have not...
• 1:13:46
  I have not been doing anything. I am too busy since I've been around the months.