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Rugby Direct Episode 260: Lessons from South Africa, questions for NZ Rugby · Rugby Direct

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
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  Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. Strike
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: down the middle.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Drop it down and score. There's your bonus point.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Try. He's pumped. Try. Game over.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier. Powered by Newstalk ZB.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, elevating you
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: and your business to a higher level. The band back together,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Elliot Smith with me, Liam Napier to talk all sorts
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: of rugby matters, the RGR Tour, the Summits, chuck a
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: bit of Blackfins in there potentially, Wallaby Springboks as well. Liam,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: there is plenty to chew over, but good to catch
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: up and look back at what has been a busy
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: few weeks in rugby.
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: It has indeed.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Great to hear your dulcet tones again after the worldwide expedition.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: And I'm glad you survived the American sojourn. And yeah,
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: we can get stuck into everything that's transpired. The rugby
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: wheel never stops turning, does it, Elliot?
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: It certainly does not. Let's start with, I guess, our
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: reflections on the tour. You watched it, the fourth test
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: from a distance in Newcastle. in South Africa. I watched
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: it up close, obviously. I've had my thoughts on that
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: fourth test, but we're going back a couple of weeks now,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: but what did you make of that fourth and final match?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: It was interesting watching it from a South African bar
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: in Cape Town. Locals were certainly pleased.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: I was not. Plenty of barbs from South Africans.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: One in particular I heard probably three or four times
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: that you can't spell All Blacks without three L's.
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: So cop that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: That was one of many barbs that was thrown around
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: while I stayed on in South Africa for a bit.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: But in terms of that fourth test, Look, I think
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: we'd agree it was the All Blacks' worst performance of
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: the tour. I mean, slight mitigating circumstances and missing some
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: big names, weren't they, in Artie Sevier, Luke Jacobson, who
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: was a front-line player, Quinta Paya, and a couple of
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: changes to the team. They lost a couple of players
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: throughout that match. But, yeah, in a couple of big moments,
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: there was the Cam Roy guards call, which I thought
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: they got right.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: I thought there was... Josh Mulvey was held back early.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: But look, I don't think you could deny that the
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Springboks deserved to win that game.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: It was interesting.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I thought, probably didn't have, certainly from afar, the same
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: intensity that those games, the test matches in particular, had
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: in South Africa. And I just thought the All Blacks
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: were always chasing the game. Never felt like they were
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: really going to come back, even though they were within
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: touching distance until late in the second half. Familiar flaws,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: I think, in terms of the high ball and a
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: couple of other areas. So, yeah, it was probably a
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: fair reflection of the series on the whole, wasn't it?
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: It was, and I think if you're the All Blacks,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: maybe if you're 2-1 up, you go on with that
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: game a little bit of fire, but they were on demand.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: No Jacobson, no Sarvia. And look, the game was in
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the balance. If Tupo Vai doesn't give away that silly penalty...
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: eight points down with the All Blacks on attack inside
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: the 22, then it may pan out a little bit
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: different if they can score from the opportunity down by
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: three or one, whatever it might be. But that ultimately
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: is the story of the All Blacks, is that they
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: weren't able to build enough pressure at enough times across
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: those four test matches.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: That's right, and they are reasonably familiar flaws, aren't they,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: in terms of defending the rolling ball, the high ball, discipline,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: And I think their defense probably deteriorated in the last
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: two tests as well. They conceded a number of points,
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: a number of tries. So some pretty clear areas that
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: they need to identify. But it's interesting, isn't it?
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: Because South Africa is such a unique opposition.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: And on the basis of what we've seen, you'd say
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: that there's still a gulf between themselves and the All
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Blacks in France and the rest of the world. certainly
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: over a test series like that, and particularly when you're
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: playing the Springboks in their backyard. I think the All
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Blacks are fully capable of winning a one-off match against
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: the Springboks, but when you have to go toe-to-toe with
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: the world champions in their backyards and then once in
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: the States over four-week periods, I think their strength and depth,
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: their weaponry, just proved too much. You know, the All Blacks,
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: they had their moments, their attack has improved out of sight,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: and when they get that flow, that ball movement, they
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: can hurt anyone.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: I think they average five tries.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Across their test matches this year, so that really reflects
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: their attacking potential. But if you can target their breakdown,
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: if you can squeeze them, frustrate them, then discipline comes
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: into it, and they can't get that flow on. So
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: some pretty clear areas, I think, for Dave Rennie and
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: his crew. But when you step back as well, Elliot,
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: you know, this is a coaching crew that's only been
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: together for, what, three months, only had a handful of
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: matches really together. So you'd hope that the ceiling still
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: remains pretty high for this team, although the attrition levels
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: could take their toll later at the back end of
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: this year.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Well, that's right. And they're now going to have to approach,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the last six test matches of the year
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: without their captain, Adi Savia. expected to be out for
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: the rest of the season. Lou Jacobson out for the
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: rest of the season. So that seven and eight combination
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: that Dave Renniger's favoured in the test matches so far,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: apart from that last one where he couldn't call on them,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: they're going to have to adjust and change that. So
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: what he's learned so far, he's going to have to
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: tweak and change to figure out a way forward without
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: those two players and two leaders.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. Massive losses, but.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: Look, there's no replacing Artie Sevier, and I thought he
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: really came into his own. I think it was the
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: third test in particular before leaving with injury. But I
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: do like the fact that we're going to see a
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: lot more of this next generation. Anton Cegna will come back,
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: and he was denied the opportunity to play the Springboks.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: He was in great form. He's a traditional... out-and-out fetcher,
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: and I think that will really suit the All Blacks
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: if he can pilfer a bit of ball that can
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: feed the counter-attack. And I'm a massive Peter Lackai fan.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Whether he's at 6, 7, or 8, he can genuinely
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: play all three. So I do like the fact we're
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: going to see a lot more of those guys, but
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: it's how you complement them.
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: And yeah, while the All Blacks are.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Losing Luke Jacobson and Artie Sevier, there is a bit
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: of a cavalry returning in terms of less defying Anuku.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Scott Barrett, some of these guys, Quinta Pyre will come
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: back as well. So, intrigued to see how they fit
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: into the mix and whether they can change the dynamic
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: of this team as well.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, that's going to be the fascinating
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: part is how they all meld together and what kind
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: of style Dave Rennie goes for. Does he go light
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: for light with Blackadder in terms of a Jacobson replacement
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: for the rest of the year? Or does he go
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: with Cegna? Looking at the tour as a whole, do
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: you think the All Blacks are better off, even though
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: they lost that series, do you think they're better off
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: now as we sit here on September 25 than they
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: were when they arrived in South Africa at the start
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: of August?
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: I think they're valuable lessons and you could paint it
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: as a bit of a punch in the nose, a
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: black eye, a reality check. But look, there were positive
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: moments for that team that sort of remains in its infancy,
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: I think. And I don't think you can replicate that
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: sort of experience anymore well, it's a once in a lifetime,
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: once in a generation tour, isn't it? Once every 12 years,
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: who knows whether it will definitely happen again in that
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: same format, that same capacity, the ability to use 48
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: players across those matches to learn a lot more about
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: those guys and the tour matches and the test matches.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: At least half that squad had never played in South Africa,
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: let alone playing the Springboks in their backyard. So, That
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: dynamic that's been missing from Super Rugby, I think that's
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: an invaluable experience for those players to go over there
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: to have a taste of those atmospheres and that style
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: of rugby. So I don't think you'd shun that. But look,
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: there are some harsh lessons that the All Blacks need
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: to absorb. And there's no quick fixes for a lot
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: of them in the immediate term. But when you face
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: different opposition, they test you in different ways. And I
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: guess we're not going to know how the All Blacks
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: scrum breakdown and high ball is going to go until
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: they probably face the Springboks again.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, that's the interesting question about the
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: scrum is that it was obviously poor for the All
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Blacks during the series and the high ball remains an issue.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: But is it an issue because the South Africans are
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: so good and clearly the number one in the world?
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Does the scrum actually match up quite well against a
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: third-ranked side, a fourth-ranked side? Are the South Africans just
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: too good and that fast at the game to get
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: a real steer on whether it's the All Blacks that
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: need work there or whether the Springboks just have their
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: arms rolled up and their sleeves rolled up and winning
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: that arm wrestle?
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll and Wilco Lowe, Malcolm Marks, I think
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: poles apart in terms of their scrummaging ability in world rugby.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: So you can't replicate that, but there are other nations
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: in the world. France are a massive pack. The English
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: pride themselves on their scrum. So the All Blacks are
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: going to be tested there, but it is an area
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: of the set piece in general that they pride themselves on.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: And I think someone like Scott Barrett coming back could
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: help shore up the scrum, the line out and the restarts,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: which were big issues. I think it's probably easy to
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: overlook Scott Barrett. We haven't seen the best of him
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: for a couple of years, but personally, I think the
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: captaincy was a major burden that held him back and
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: He dealt with a lot of niggling injuries, and I
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: think he's just the type of player that does so
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: much of that dirty work around the breakdown, his experience
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: around the line-out. He's not necessarily the tallest lock, but
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: so you add these sort of guys back into the mix,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: throwing Elista Whanganuku off the bench in the last 20
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: minutes is another major asset. So, yeah, it's going to
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: be interesting to see how they match up, but we're
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: not really going to know are we um where those
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: areas of vulnerability are at until you face the best
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: in the world.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Well you know the wallabies might tip over the spring
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: box on sunday night and that might shake up the
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: world order once again.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: Liam maybe maybe look it's um a very different looking
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: spring block team isn't it 13 changes basically all the
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: players that's didn't feature a lot in the RGR series.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Esther Hazen captaining that team sort of speaks to the
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: experimental nature, the vast rotation. So look, I think the Wallabies,
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: they're about 8.5 points.
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: That the bookmakers have given them.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: Perth can be a bit of a tricky place to
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: go to, even though it's closer to South Africa. But
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Ben Donaldson's at 10, so that doesn't fill me with
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: a great lot of hope for the Wallabies.
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: But you never know.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: No, you never know. Exactly. 10.45 kickoff on Sunday night,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: New Zealand time. Got to be a late one in
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: that regard. Just flowing on out of the All Blacks names.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: We talked about some of those players that are going
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: to come in and out. The Bledisloe Cup squad, I believe,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: is going to be named on Tuesday next week. New
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Zealand squad for the Bledisloe. 34 names. Obviously, a few
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: are going to come out. What do you see as
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: the crucial... areas where Dave Rennie's going to have to
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: make some tough decisions from the 48 or so that
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: he played in South Africa?
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, there's a few areas. I think midfield's very interesting,
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: isn't it?
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: Because you've got some big injuries there.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: There's no Billy Proctor.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: Quinn Tapia will come back, but I don't know if
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: he's going to be fit for that first split as low.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: So maybe you're looking at Rico Awani starting there until
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Leonard Brown's injured as well. Um, so you're looking quite
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: light and the midfield ranks, um, Scott Barrett coming back
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: into the mix.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: We'll put a bit of a squeeze on the locks.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: I think, um, the likes of Noah Hotham will drop
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: out of the halfback ranks. Um, less defying Nuku has
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: that utility, um, value. And, and then I guess Anton
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: Cigna coming back will, will compensate for losing Artie.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: Sevier and Luke Jacobson.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: Um, I don't know if there's, when you're using 48
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: players across an RGR series, it's not about so much
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: who's coming in from outside, is it? It's about who's
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: going to be trimmed and cut. I think, you know,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: potentially guys like Patrick Tupelotu and Spoden Barrett may be
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: a wee bit nervous. I think they'll probably be involved.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: But when you're looking at the playmaking ranks, Ruben Love,
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Damian McKenzie, Richard Mawonga, And then the fullback ranks as
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: well with McKenzie and Will Jordan. Where does Bowdoin Barrett
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: fit in that mix now? I think they'll probably keep
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: him involved, but how much longer? I'm not too sure.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a real interesting question as well.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And with that squad being named on Tuesday, I don't
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: know whether anyone... from the squad is going to be
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: available to play NPC next weekend. But some of those
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: players that haven't had a lot of rugby in the
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: last couple of months, like a Bowdoin Barrett, I thought
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: maybe would have played for Taranaki this week or maybe next.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: That might not be the case now. Scott Barrett playing
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: for Taranaki against Hawke's Bay on Sunday afternoon. Does he
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: get one opportunity? He's only going to get one opportunity
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: before the squad is named. Is that enough? Does he
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: get another game the following weekend? I think that will
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: be interesting from the All Blacks. They obviously sent already
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: a few players home from South Africa that didn't travel
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: to the United States. They've already given it a little
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: bit of a haircut in some ways as well. So
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: there are some big decisions to come for Dave Rooney.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Speaking of big decisions, Adi Sarvia, not out as yet.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: He's been teasing his social media announcement around his future
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: it's going to be the blues um so perhaps by
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: the time this podcast lands it might be official naps.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah well i'll tell you what elliot um i will
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: don a crusaders jersey for you if it's if it's
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: not the blues because everything i've heard going back the
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: best part of six months um since moana's collapse is
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: that arty will be at the blues and i know
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: The Blues had discussions with him as far back as
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: the Irish test.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: What was that, July in Auckland?
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: And it was just a matter of trying to squeeze
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: a wee bit more money out of NZR to sort
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: of get that over the line. There's different metrics behind
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: the scenes that the Blues are trying to work, but
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: I will be absolutely stunned if Ardy isn't joining the
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Blues and that will further bolster their already stacked loose forwards,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: won't it?
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not bad when you've got Anton Signer who's
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: become an All Black this year. I mean, they have
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: lost Dalton Papali'i, but, you know, Rampling is an up-and-coming
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: player as well. Some suggestion that Semisitupo Tailoa won't end
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: up there after all, but we'll wait and see in
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: that regard. We'll keep moving through the topics on this
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Rugby Direct episode.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier. Powered by
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Newstalk ZB. Hear every All Blacks game live and free
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: on air and on iHeartRadio.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: A couple of days ago, Liam, the summit was held
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: at NZR headquarters in Wellington. A lot of publicity around this,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: that New Zealand rugby trying to save millions of dollars
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: a year is projected $ 66 million loss over five years
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: was in the books or was forecast for them and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: obviously trying to avoid such a scenario. Steve Lancaster's come
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: out on record and said that they'll take all that
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: money feedback back, but what did you make of the
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: machinations and the discussion around the summit a couple of
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: days ago?
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Well Elliot, they might need to resurrect Sir Edmund Hillary
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: to sort out the summit because we've seen five, I think,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: reviews of the structure, the professional system within New Zealand
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: rugby since 2011 and.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: Hasn't been a lot of change.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: And I think we've seen over that period of time
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: that it's very hard to make genuine shifts within New
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Zealand rugby because of the constitution, because of the way
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: the game is governed, because of the control of the
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: provincial unions. But clearly something has to change because New
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: Zealand rugby can't continue as is. It can't sustain $ 20
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: million losses year on year. We've seen three options be
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: put forward, haven't we? One from the provincial unions of
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: a go-it-alone domestic competition, eight to ten teams, a potential
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: expansion of Super Rugby with two more New Zealand teams.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: I don't see any world in which either of those
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: options will progress. Look, I love the romanticism around the
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: provincial game and I fully side with the fact that
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: rugby does need more tribalism And that Super Rugby needs
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: major change, needs to be privatised, probably needs a lot
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: less control from New Zealand Rugby to retain players, to
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: have more All Blacks playing on a regular basis, all
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: these sorts of things. And the final option is that
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: the five major centres, Canterbury, Auckland, Wellington, Dunedin, are amalgamated
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: into their Super Rugby teams. So I think that is
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: probably New Zealand Rugby's preferred option. But getting that across
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: the table with the provincial unions might be a challenge.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: So I think like the Silver Lake deal, Elliot, we'll
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: probably see some form of compromise put forwards and shit
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: fight from both many different conflicting parties of different agendas
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: and self-interest.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: So a lot of water to go under the bridge.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: I don't think anything will be finalised until the New
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Zealand Rugby Board meets in December.
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: Which way do you see this going?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I see it. I don't think there's going to
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: be radical tweaks, put it that way. Super Rugby is
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: a concept that New Zealand Rugby are wedded to, that
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: they believe in, that the numbers that they have suggest
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: is winning the campaign for eyeballs and hearts, maybe not
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: crowds necessarily, but it's still very, very healthy TV-wise. So
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I think there's going to be very minimal change there,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: but I can see the merit in adding a couple
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: more New Zealand teams into Super Rugby. 10 teams isn't enough. Now,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: whether you lose a bit by diluting some of the
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: New Zealand players, sorry, New Zealand teams, that would bring
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: up the Australian side's That could be a possibility, but
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know that a Tasman or a Bay of
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Plenty are necessarily super rugby ready. So I can see
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: that being an option down the track maybe in five years'
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: time once the next broadcast deal comes up, but I
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: certainly don't think it's an immediate silver bullet to just
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: throw in one of those teams into the into Super Rugby,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: you know, immediately. So what I can see is one
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: of those options where you basically merge Wellington and the
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Hurricanes in together, Auckland and the Blues, and you cut
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: down a lot of costs that way. Now, that's not
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: going to save you the millions that you're after, but
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: it probably prevents a fair bit of double up in
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: some of those regions. But there's ultimately, as you said,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of self-interest around the place in terms of,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: you know, and provinces believing that they have a rightful
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: spot at the table, that they should be the ones
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: that are the standard bearers and the way that rugby
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: moves forward in this country. That's not necessarily the case.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: And until you get around and figure this out, then
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: you're never going to have any action forward. So I'm
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: intrigued to see how New Zealand rugby do this. And
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: you're right, what you said at the top around the romanticism,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: around those eight to 10 team competition. It's a nice idea,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: but there's just not enough money for it. And I
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: don't know who would fund it. And, you know, people
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: talk about the, you know, the state of rugby where
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: we've been closed off from South Africa and all that
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: other thing. Well, I think isolating yourself is only going
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: to hurt yourselves a little bit more. And people might
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: point to the French top 14, but I think that's
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: a different beast of entirely they obviously also play you
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: know in the Champions Cup and everything like that so
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure that is necessarily the answer but at
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: the same time I also don't see the day when
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: the Australian teams are going to be heavily watched across
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: this side of the Tasman I think that horse is
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: bolted and I just can't see the days where a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Hurricanes Reds or a Chiefs Force game being the must-watch
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: ticket of the round. I just don't know that it's
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: going to happen. I don't think Australia produces enough quality
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: rugby players or enough quality rugby teams to make that
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: a realistic possibility. So if you add more New Zealand teams,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: maybe that's the way to make it a more well-rounded competition.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many challenges, aren't there, facing any of
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: these options. Look, an 8-10 team domestic competition is, could
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: potentially work if you have some sort of Champions Cup
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: equivalents that they have in Europe. Maybe there's a New
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Zealand competition and the winners play off against the best
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: from Australia and Japan and potentially from Europe as well,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: but then you're looking at a global season challenge and
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: so much of the broadcast revenue is It doesn't just
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: come from Sky. It comes from the fact that the
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: viewership comes from Australia. It comes from the United Kingdom
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and elsewhere for Super Rugby. If you're just having a
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: domestic product, that dilutes that viewership, it dilutes that revenue.
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: And so that's a challenge.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: And then when you look at adding another couple of
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: teams for that potential option, well, it actually costs upwards
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: of 20 to 25 million a year to run a
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: super rugby club. So where is that money coming from?
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: New Zealand Rugby can't afford to prop up another two teams.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: So you need private investment for that to happen. New
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: Zealand's a small economy. Is there enough money? philanthropy to
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: try and make that happen so there's major barriers to
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: all these options and then you look at amalgamating Auckland
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: and the Blues well historically that hasn't really worked and
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: there'll be a lot of resistance to that change so
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: I think we're going to have to see a lot
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: of compromise across the boards but those numbers are stark
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: 20 million a year New Zealand rugby just can't continue
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: to throw money down the toilet like that and then
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: the other topic of discussion that will rear its head
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: is Silver Lake. Do New Zealand rugby need to buy
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: themselves out of that in various ways? Because they'll be
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: losing a lot of money over time with that deal
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: They will be. And so with that money, you know,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: standing in the books, I suppose, is the way to
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: frame it. Then they've got some tough decisions to make
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: New Zealand rugby. But ultimately, as we've touched on, there
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: is so much so many barriers to making decisions. You know,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: other sports, and looking across at the NRL, can make
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: decisions at the, you know, strike of a pen, really,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: whereas New Zealand rugby, and this isn't just them, but
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: it's the way that NSOs operate, is there are so
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: many different stakeholders that you can't just go, we're going
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: to add another team, we're going to, remove this competition,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: we're going to do X, Y, Z. There are so
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: many layers to the way that NZR operates that it
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: becomes very, very hard to make swift and definitive decision-making.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the biggest difference between the NRL and Super
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Rugby is the NRL is effectively the pinnacle product. The
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: best players play. All the attention is on that competition.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: It's prioritised over everything else, where rugby's completely different.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: For so long, Super Rugby.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Has been used as a vehicle to provide players for
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks. Putting the fan first, there's a Super
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Rugby commission that's largely powerless. There's All Black rests. Players
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: are going to be taken out for an ANZAC test.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: all these sorts of things that devalue the competition. So
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: Super Rugby is not prioritised in the grand scheme of things.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: And until that control is loosened, until that competition is
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: genuinely prioritised, it's not going to be a success. And
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: maybe it's never going to be. Maybe we're at that crossroads.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: I agree with you about your point about the Australian teams.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: I don't think they have the strength and depth to
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: sustain the number of teams that they have currently. And
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: so it's inherently problematic. But then the sole domestic competition,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: I like the idea of it. I like the tribalism.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: I think there would be genuine support there, but it
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: probably doesn't have the revenue and the broadcast to sustain that.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: So that's a really challenging dynamic. And I guess you
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: hope that parties come together and that they can see
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: and find some common ground because this is not the
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: time for self-interest to prevail.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: No, it's not. And look, I think, yeah, there's an
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: interesting balance to be made around New Zealand rugby. And
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of it comes from a good place that people,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: like you say, that full tribalism idea is great. But,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: you know, we are a small economy in the world.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: We don't have access to the big companies that the
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: likes of Europe or even South Africa have. A lot
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: of the worldwide companies headquarter themselves in Sydney rather than
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: New Zealand that are in this part of the world.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: So the spend in terms of advertising dollars or sponsorship
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: dollars is less than what an Australian market can take in.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: So they've got to align. with Australia. Now, is it
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the best for rugby? Probably not, but you've got to
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: try and balance it off against each other to go,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: we're going to lose a little bit in the sporting
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: realm to pay off and basically fund our competition. So
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: there's no easy answers per se to the way this
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: is going. I saw a website a couple of days
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: ago I think it was called Super Rugby 2030 around
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: presenting this idea that was very much you know added
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: some New Zealand teams in but retained the Australian flavour
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I think it was a 14 team competition it was
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: very well thought out and it was a great idea
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: but I think it pre-proposes ideas around revenue that just
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: maybe aren't in New Zealand that many people think might be.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah and look when you take a step back the
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: challenges around club rugby per se, whether that be super
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: rugby or provincial rugby or whatever it is, is not
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: exclusive to New Zealand and Australia. The UK, Wales, America,
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: the world over is struggling with, I think, breaking away
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: from largely an amateur era governance system. And so New
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Zealand needs to have a deep, long, hard thing. We
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: had the Hurricanes co-owner come on the podcast earlier this
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: year and his push for more privatisation. Now, as it
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: currently stands, there's zero incentive for big wealth individuals to
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: invest in clubs because they have no control. They don't
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: pay the players. They have very little say in what happens. So,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: There needs to be genuine discussion about that sort of
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: scenario and where that goes to if they want Super
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Rugby to be a success as well.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: They do. I think that's a very good point that
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: you make around that. And I think there are some
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: ongoing issues in that front. And I guess the other
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: one that gets thrown up when people go let's save
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: some money let's cut back on women's rugby well New
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Zealand rugby, it doesn't serve to make a commercial profit.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: It serves to make rugby from the grassroots up. And
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that includes the women's game, includes the Black Ferns, includes
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Super Rugby All-Picky. And yes, the All Blacks fund a
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: lot of that given their financial draw cards around the
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: globe and the fact they can play those big test
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: matches abroad and bring in revenue. But there seems to
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: be an inherent, oh, let's just cut the women's game
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: because it's not drawing eyeballs. But New Zealand Rugby is
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: an organisation that serves the best purposes of rugby, both
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: men's and women's. So you can't just go, oh, we're
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: just going to get rid of Super Rugby Alpiki. That's
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: not going to solve anything.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: No, it's not.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: But some of those figures around Super Rugby Alpiki for
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: a short hit competition were quite staggering. So Look, in
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: a full-scale review where you're looking at every area of
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: the game, this is not exclusive to women's rugby, but
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: the sevens programs, the All Blacks 15, does that continue?
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: I think every area of the game might have to
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: cut its cloth and be ready for potential cutbacks when
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: you're looking to save $ 20 million a year.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the one thing that, and I'm sure
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: coaches wouldn't agree with this, but We got to the
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: point where Super Rugby squads have about 50 players. They
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: had about a dozen wider training members. They have 38
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: strong squads. You're looking at 50 players. One argument is
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: you could move some of those players into different teams
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and run an entirely different team. Now, that's going to
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: cost a lot more money as well, but that could
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: be one option. But also, and again, you bring in
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: the NRL to this, they play for a much longer
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: season with 30 strong squads. And yes, they have, you know,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: development squads underneath it. But, you know, I'd be looking
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: and going for a 10-team competition. Do we need to
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: have 250 players tied up in New Zealand squads? I'm
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: not entirely sure that we do.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, do you look at shifting seasons? And I'm
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: not sure this works entirely, but having a potentially watered
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: down or a provincial competition essentially running alongside Super Rugby.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: And then you have players that are playing that you
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: can pull directly out of there. I know there's a
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: renewed push around some of the age-grade teams within New
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: Zealand rugby as well. So all these sort of things
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: are up for discussion when you're having a summit, a
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: sixth review in the past 15 years without genuine change.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot on the table.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: It certainly is. A couple of things to wrap up.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Black Ferns with a big game against England Sunday morning
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: at 3 a.m. Good win over France a couple of
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: weeks back in Scotland. But this is the acid test,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: although England come in having their 39-match winning streak stopped
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: last week. So fascinating time for the Black Ferns. I
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: think they've improved over the last 12 months since the
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: World Cup. Maybe England slipped back a bit, but this
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: is a big acid test for Whitney Hansen and co.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: It is the biggest test of Hansen's coaching career with
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: the Black Ferns.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: I think they've made some good shifts and rotated the
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: squad and exposed a lot of players. And they get
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: a couple of big names back. Olsen Baker, one in particular,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: for this match. And it sounds like there's going to
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: be a bumper crowd at Twickenham. I saw close to
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: maybe 60,000. So that'll be a fantastic occasion.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: 3am, what is it? Sunday morning New Zealand time.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Live on Newstalk ZB Sport, looking forward to calling
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: that one. And finally, we haven't talked a lot about
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: the NBC so far this season. It's been highly entertaining. Look,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, we put a bid on
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Wellington and Canterbury. Wish we'd done that this season. What
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: is going on with your mighty Lions?
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, I'm still wearing the jersey proudly, Elliot, but
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: it is very dire times indeed, equalling their worst ever season.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Losing run.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: And, um, yeah, I think it's probably reflective of how
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: the union has been run in recent years, some massive losses, um,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: some big cutbacks and, um, some, I think strange coaching
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: decisions of let's some, some really talented people go. Um,
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: Alinda Soakai I thought was quite highly regarded and Trent
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Renitz has come in there. Um, and I think, you know,
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: when you're playing Doobsy Karifi at 12, um, You shouldn't
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: have to be doing that when you're a major provincial union.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: So I'm not too sure exactly what's going on within Wellington,
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: but it's not good.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: It's not good. And I'm very thankful that we didn't
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: make that bet this year.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, the Hurricanes might have won the
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Super Rugby title, but dear, oh dear, it's looking pretty
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: dire for the Lions a couple of weeks to go.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: in the NPC. That'll about do us, Napes, for another
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: edition of Rugby Direct. We're back, of course, full steam,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: heading into the blitters load, but good to catch up
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and chat about some of those big issues around the game.
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: Indeed. Look forward to seeing you next week.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: Will do.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: That has been Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, elevating
• 35:01
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• 35:08
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• 35:12
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• 35:15
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